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Tribal Warfare
08-29-2010, 12:52 AM
Delay of game? Owners, players preparing for labor battle after 2010 (http://www.kansascity.com/2010/08/28/2184149/delay-of-game-owners-players-preparing.html)
By RANDY COVITZ
The Kansas City Star

Chiefs veterans Brian Waters and Mike Vrabel know what it’s like at the negotiating table. It can get testy and nasty at times.

As members of the NFL Players Association executive committee, they have debated, disputed, clashed and quarreled with NFL management and commissioner Roger Goodell.

And it’s clear to Waters, Vrabel and other NFL player representatives that once the collective bargaining agreement between the owners and players expires next March, there will be a lockout that could cancel part — if not all — of the 2011 season.

“I have to believe there is going to be some delay in the season,” Waters, a four-time Pro Bowler and reigning NFL Man of the Year, said with a bit of resignation in his voice.

“It’s just a matter of whether it’s going to impact the training camp or the season, I don’t know. Because everything has to be reconstructed, it’s going to take some time, and at the pace we’re going right now, we’re not getting anything major done.”

The major issue on the table is, of course, money. Lots of it.

In 2008, the owners opted out of the current agreement, which eliminated the salary cap for the 2010 season but added a year to when players could become unrestricted free agents.

The owners have cited increased costs, particularly in the construction and maintenance of new stadiums. They want to reduce the players’ 60 percent of total revenue they currently receive. But the union is steadfast against it, saying that the league, awash in money, is asking the players to take what amounts to an 18 percent pay cut.

And that’s just the start. There are myriad other issues, ranging from Goodell’s desire to increase the regular season from 16 to 18 games and drop two exhibition games; to the implementation of a rookie wage scale; to the minimum length of rookie contracts; to testing for human growth hormone; and to issues related to player safety, discipline and financial help for retired players.

“There’s always going to be a (disagreement) on the percentage between the players and owners,” Waters said, “but I believe the owners are the ones who have issues on how they split their part of the pie, and they have decided to lay it on us to make up for it.”

The union is so convinced a job action is forthcoming, its website features a “Lockout Watch,” counting down the days, hours, minutes and seconds to what would be the first work stoppage since the 1980s, when players went on strike in 1982 and 1987.

“You have to look at history,” Waters said. “There has been some labor strife in the past, and we have to let them know this is part of the process. It happens every blue moon, but if we do it right and stay strong in the end, we all benefit from it.”

Last February, NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith predicted, on a scale of 1 to 10, that the likelihood of a lockout by the owners was 14.

Those odds haven’t changed. Even as Denver quarterback Kyle "Pro Bowl" Orton two weeks ago signed a one-year contract extension through 2011, he was unsure whether he’ll collect on it.

“We’re still taking the approach that we’re going to be locked out,” Orton said. “To not prepare for something like that would be a fault by all the players.”

Smith cites several indications that the owners are preparing for a lockout: the league’s agreeing to extensions of its television contracts that require the networks to pay the league billions of dollars even if there are no games broadcast during a work stoppage; lockout clauses in assistant coaches’ contracts that will eliminate salaries during a lockout; and the hiring of attorney Robert Batterman, who led the NHL owners through a lockout that dashed the 2004-05 hockey season.

“If that were the only three things out there, it would be significant,” Smith said. “But when you add that they have not given us anything that would suggest teams are losing money, I have to be concerned for our fans and players that there will be a lockout.”

Goodell bristles at the suggestion that the television contracts will give the league $5 billion of lockout insurance as the union claims and says the league will repay money for games not played.

“Networks are not going to pay you for games you don’t play,” Goodell said. “So you have to pay the money back. I hear the question, but no one finishes the sentence. It’s the way it’s been structured for the past several decades. Money is obligated by the networks to be paid to the NFL, and if the games aren’t played, the product they are paying for, they want to be reimbursed, and that’s a process we’ll go through.”

• • •

Goodell spent this month visiting several training camps, including the Chiefs in St. Joseph, and tried to smooth over hard feelings and mollify concerns. It did not go over well. Players were frustrated at the lack of straight answers.

“We asked Mr. Goodell questions, and he answered them to the best of his ability, or he answered them how he wanted to answer them,” Vrabel said. “I have seen Roger on two fronts. I have been negotiating with him, and then you see him in front of the players, it’s two different guys. Think about it. He was somebody who wanted to be the liaison between the owners and the players, and that’s just not true. He works for the owners, and we understand that, and he’s part of the negotiating team with the owners, too.

“The players are ready and understand the negotiations and fight we have in front of us.”

Goodell said his visits, which also included trips to the Ravens, Steelers, Eagles, Browns and Colts camps, were for informational purposes, not negotiating.

“These visits are designed to meet with the players, coaches and front office and some of the fans,” Goodell said. “That’s part of what I’ve done in all of these camps to try to get some dialogue going, to try to hear some views. In the player meetings specifically, we talk about player safety.

“We do address labor, but we recognize the context that they are not negotiating sessions. So there are a lot of things that can’t be discussed in particular. We talked about the 18-and-two format, we talk about those kinds of concepts, just so they can hear from me and I can hear from them.”

The players wanted to know what they’ll get in return for playing two extra games, and if that will outweigh the risks of even more injuries that accumulate during a 16-game season. In addition to two more game checks, perhaps the owners will agree to let players become unrestricted free agents after four years, not five.

“The 18 games are an option in the owners’ minds of growing the game,” Vrabel said. “We’ll see what the players think and see what (the owners) would be willing to give back in return.”

Waters said he has a real concern about playing 18 games unless training camps are made shorter and roster sizes are increased.

“The season is a long season as it is,” Waters said. “Two extra games … if guys get accustomed to it, just like anything, we can adapt. The problem is if you’re not willing to sacrifice some of your idealism about how to handle practices, how many guys to have on a roster, how you do the training camp and how to pay guys.”

The union would be more sympathetic to the owners if the clubs opened their books and showed the need for asking the players to take less. Smith said before the players receive 60 percent of total revenue, $1 billion is taken off the top and goes directly to management and is used for stadium renovations, upkeep and the G-3 program that helps finance new stadiums. That essentially drops the players’ share to 52 percent.

And now, Smith said, the owners want to take another $1 billion off the top, though NFL team values have increased almost 500 percent in the last 15 years, and the league generated $8 billion in revenues in 2008.

“The biggest issue is they want us to take less money,” said Atlanta tight end and former Chiefs star Tony Gonzalez. “But they won’t justify why they want us to take less money. If they could, I think they would have shown us. If you are losing money, let’s see why, and then we can work from there.”

• • •

The NFL has enjoyed labor peace since a strike reduced the 1987 season to a 15-game schedule that included three games played by replacement players.

In 1993, the union and league agreed to a seven-year agreement that provided the players unfettered free agency. And that deal was extended again in 1998, in 2002 and in 2006 before the owners opted out of the current one.

Since unrestricted free agency began in 1993, the average player salary rose from $483,000 in 1992 to $1.9 million in 2009, and NFL teams now average $1.02 billion in value, according to Forbes magazine.

But since 1992, all but seven of the 32 teams are playing in new or refurbished stadiums — including the Chiefs, who invested $125 million of the $375 million that went into Arrowhead Stadium. That list will grow to 26 of 32 when San Francisco moves into its new stadium in Santa Clara in 2014. And owners such as Dallas’ Jerry Jones and New England’s Robert Kraft, who privately built their new stadiums, say they need relief from the debt service on those facilities.

“The game has changed,” said Philadelphia Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie. “The players and teams arrived at a very successful business model earlier in the decade, and it’s grown the sport and allowed for investment on all imaginable means, including new stadiums and expanding the game in every possible way.

“Now, we’ve got a situation where we’ve got to come up with a new model, and there are going to be ups and downs of trying to come up with that model. Nobody benefits from non-playing of games, but nobody benefits from a model that’s not ideal.”

Waters insists there’s nothing broken with the model, and the owners’ investments in their stadiums are shrewd.

“The way I look at it is look at how much money has been made off that situation,” Waters said. “It’s no different than if you have your own home; at some point, if you’ve been willing to make the investment to renovate your own home, you’ll end up getting the most out of it.

“I don’t see it as a great investment on their part; it’s just good business. It’s a business they’re reaping the greatest amount of reward from. They should be the ones investing.”

Baltimore cornerback Domonique Foxworth, at 27 the youngest member of the executive committee in NFLPA history, took it a step further during an NFLPA forum last month in Washington, D.C., by denouncing the owners’ claim of taking financial risks.

“We’re taking real risks,” said Foxworth, who a few days later was lost for the season because of a torn anterior cruciate ligament in training camp. “I was on the field when Kevin Everett got paralyzed. And the thing with Chris Henry … he had never been diagnosed with a concussion, but his brain is all beat up. That’s the stuff we have to deal with every day.

“I made this decision. I could walk away. I’m just asking for respect. Don’t tell me I’m not taking any risk. Robert Kraft is worth near a billion dollars, and I doubt he’s had hip or back surgeries. And Wes Welker … he’ll be limping the rest of his life. Tom Brady … how can he look those guys in the eyes that brought him all those rings and say he’s the only one taking risks? It’s infuriating.”

On some issues, such as the rookie wage scale, the players and owners cannot even agree to disagree. Both sides agree there’s something wrong in paying out guaranteed signing bonuses of up to $50 million to first-round draft choices who have yet to play a down in the league.

“There needs to be a change,” Goodell said. “You have money going to an individual that hasn’t demonstrated success on an NFL field. I think you have to see that players who have performed should be the ones that are rewarded.”

Waters, who entered the league the hard way as an undrafted rookie free agent and practice-squad player who toiled in NFL Europe, never saw a big signing bonus as a young player. But he’s not sure that eliminating the big bonuses to rookies will mean more for others, especially when the average career lasts fewer than four years.

“I understand everybody’s concerns,” Waters said, “but I’d rather the rookies get it than the owners. I want it to be kept in the locker room, and I don’t think they’re being honest about where they want that extra money to go.”

• • •

Most contract negotiations come down to the 11th hour, and both sides are digging in for one long fight.

One of the reasons the 18-game season is being discussed for 2012 and not 2011 is that by the time a new collective bargaining agreement is reached, there may not be enough time left on the calendar for a 16-game season, much less 18 games.

“What will it take to get something done?” Goodell said. “Pressure is a little bit of a help. This is something that is going to take a while.”

Vrabel said: “Different issues mean something to different players. I might think the franchise tag needs to be taken away. But what applies to seven or eight guys may not be the best thing for 1,800. We need to take a look at the deal we have, the deal we signed four years ago, the things we thought were important that have helped our players … a lot of those things that we worked hard to get in the last deal and they want taken out.”

Gonzalez is not optimistic about an early settlement — or even on whether there will be a 2011 season.

“We’re together on this,” he said of the union. “We’re not going to back down. We’re educated, we know exactly what’s going on.”

Maybe the owners and players need to listen to former New Orleans Saints linebacker Rickey Jackson. During his Pro Football Hall of Fame speech earlier this month, Jackson implored both sides to take a look at how good they both have it.

“The National Football League needs to get together and make sure we keep the game what it is today,” Jackson said. “Don’t let it get away. When you have a great product … try to do the right thing with it … keep it going.”

Buck
08-29-2010, 12:56 AM
Lets say that the schedule is shortened to between 10-14 games, I wonder how they will work out the scheduling, considering the "balanced schedule" that the NFL uses now.

Bane
08-29-2010, 06:35 AM
I still can't believe we haven't heard how the "owners" are acting like slave owners and have Jesse and Al get on the wagon.

That's what I bet happens in the end anyway.The Naacp,Al,and every "kill whitey" organization out there will lean on the evil white bastard slave owners and make them break.Yay we get football.I don't care how it happens,but if they miss 1 game,I will not spend another dime on anything NFL.
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Bugeater
08-29-2010, 06:39 AM
Work it out motherfuckers, you're all getting rich and the fans don't deserve this shit.

The owners have cited increased costs, particularly in the construction and maintenance of new stadiums.
LMAO Are you fucking kidding me? The taxpayers of the cities these teams are located paid for the bulk of this. The only owner that I'm aware that footed the bill for their own stadium is Jerry Jones. Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

michaelj_58
08-29-2010, 07:01 AM
i bet they start working on it very soon. both sides will lose to much money.

boogblaster
08-29-2010, 07:19 AM
owners don't care bout fans or players they get most of their money thru tv

Dave Lane
08-29-2010, 07:34 AM
Seriously other than the rookie scale which I understand I don't see any reason for the owners to get any extra money. They are taking 1 billion off the top for 32 teams BEFORE the players see a dime. It's no wonder they don't want the players to see their books.

Bwana
08-29-2010, 07:37 AM
Boys, this is going to get VERY ugly before it's all said and done. The two sides are miles apart from being on the same page. Enjoy this season, because I don't think there will be much of a 2011 season if any, the way things look right now.

crossbow
08-29-2010, 07:55 AM
What? Goodell's pr talk with the players didn't work? Plan B then?

Coach
08-29-2010, 08:04 AM
Work it out motherfuckers, you're all getting rich and the fans don't deserve this shit.


LMAO Are you fucking kidding me? The taxpayers of the cities these teams are located paid for the bulk of this. The only owner that I'm aware that footed the bill for their own stadium is Jerry Jones. Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

I agree with your bolded statement. It's really frightening to hear that they are citing the stadium costs that are hurting them money-wise, while they only contributed less than 50% of the total tag price. Also, another thing that is frightening to me is that now that Jerry Jones have created a massive stadium, and with other teams either constructed/or will be constructing new/renovation stadiums, it's going to set off a arms-race on the biggest, baddest, sleek, fancy stadiums.

The worst part of this? I, personally as a fan, couldn't care less about the freaking stadium. I don't have time to walk around, looking around stuff that has little to no revelence to the product they put on the field.

Deberg_1990
08-29-2010, 08:08 AM
The only owner that I'm aware that footed the bill for their own stadium is Jerry Jones.

Nope....Arlington taxpayers helped fund "Jerry World" too.

Dinny Bossa Nova
08-29-2010, 12:34 PM
Will a lockout/strike affect the draft?

No games would be bad enough, but no draft would be a whole lot worse than that.

Wouldn't it?

Dinny

Coach
08-29-2010, 12:51 PM
Will a lockout/strike affect the draft?

No games would be bad enough, but no draft would be a whole lot worse than that.

Wouldn't it?

Dinny

Hmm... good question. I honestly have no idea. Would be nice if the media would ask the question, which they most likely won't.

Ming the Merciless
08-29-2010, 01:41 PM
Boys, this is going to get VERY ugly before it's all said and done. The two sides are miles apart from being on the same page. Enjoy this season, because I don't think there will be much of a 2011 season if any, the way things look right now.

I have to agree with this...

It is sad but I really don't see how theyre going to settle all these issues in such a short amount of time when they are SO far apart.

At least I can save some money on Sunday Ticket and free up my Sundays for other things

DaFace
08-29-2010, 01:41 PM
Work it out motherfuckers, you're all getting rich and the fans don't deserve this shit.


LMAO Are you fucking kidding me? The taxpayers of the cities these teams are located paid for the bulk of this. The only owner that I'm aware that footed the bill for their own stadium is Jerry Jones. Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

Well, kind of. Jerry's the only one I know of who actually paid for the whole thing, but the owners regularly CONTRIBUTE to building costs. I believe that Clark threw in like $50m or so for the Arrowhead renovation, but I can't remember where I read that.

Mecca
08-29-2010, 01:45 PM
They'll still draft even if there's a lockout.

When the owners wanna take the players pay out down 16%, add games etc etc, if I was a player I wouldn't agree to that either.

Ming the Merciless
08-29-2010, 01:51 PM
When the owners wanna take the players pay out down 16%, add games etc etc, if I was a player I wouldn't agree to that either.

It is a tough issue...I would like to see how they got that 18% pay cut figure. If they are using the numbers from the desired ' rookie salary cap' to try and say that it is a pay cut for ALL players then I would have an issue with that. A big issue. I think rookie pay is WAY too high for kids that haven't played one snap...

I am sure that both sides are going to have tons of propaganda....sigh...I just want to have football on Sunday.

Bugeater
08-29-2010, 01:54 PM
Well, kind of. Jerry's the only one I know of who actually paid for the whole thing, but the owners regularly CONTRIBUTE to building costs. I believe that Clark threw in like $50m or so for the Arrowhead renovation, but I can't remember where I read that.
I know the owners pay for some of it, but that's called a friggin' investment. They wouldn't be laying that money out if they weren't getting a return on it, these people didn't become billionaires by throwing their money into a hole.

Mecca
08-29-2010, 01:54 PM
It is a tough issue...I would like to see how they got that 18% pay cut figure. If they are using the numbers from the desired ' rookie salary cap' to try and say that it is a pay cut for ALL players then I would have an issue with that. A big issue. I think rookie pay is WAY too high for kids that haven't played one snap...

I am sure that both sides are going to have tons of propaganda....sigh...I just want to have football on Sunday.

No it's pay in general, the players are fine with a rookie cap.

Basically right now in the agreement it says the players get 59% of the gross income of the league, that's how they set the cap.

The owners want it moved down to 43%, would you agree to that?

Also the thing that blows my mind is why fans always side with owners in these situations.

Coach
08-29-2010, 01:55 PM
They'll still draft even if there's a lockout.

When the owners wanna take the players pay out down 16%, add games etc etc, if I was a player I wouldn't agree to that either.

Well, this is a shocker. Something I agree with you.

Not to mention that the owners are citing stadium costs and such, which I would call BS on that, considering most of that $ was funded by the taxpayers and their own personal donations.

I'm guessing they want to recover some of their "donations" so to speak.

Mecca
08-29-2010, 01:57 PM
Basically we have billionaires crying poor, so they want to dip the players pay, meanwhile the NFL's revenue is only increasing.

In the end this comes back to the big and small market teams can't agree on anything including revenue sharing. I'm sure the proposed pay cut comes mostly from the smaller teams who see it as a way to have a lower cap..lower cap easier to compete for players.

Bugeater
08-29-2010, 01:58 PM
No it's pay in general, the players are fine with a rookie cap.

Basically right now in the agreement it says the players get 59% of the gross income of the league, that's how they set the cap.

The owners want it moved down to 43%, would you agree to that?

Also the thing that blows my mind is why fans always side with owners in these situations.
Well there was an earlier article about this that basically said the players favor a system of free spending on salaries with no cap, which would basically put us back into the 80s and early 90s where teams could essentially buy Super Bowls. That kind of crap isn't going to endear me to their side either.

Mecca
08-29-2010, 02:00 PM
Well there was an earlier article about this that basically said the players favor a system of free spending on salaries with no cap, which would basically put us back into the 80s and early 90s where teams could essentially buy Super Bowls. That kind of crap isn't going to endear me to their side either.

Of course they'd like that, they'd all get more money. When I've read that the players have thrown something like 5 proposals at the owners and been met with nothing, not even a counter.

That makes me think the owners want a lockout in some kind of "lets break them" statement.

Bugeater
08-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Of course they'd like that, they'd all get more money. When I've read that the players have thrown something like 5 proposals at the owners and been met with nothing, not even a counter.

That makes me think the owners want a lockout in some kind of "lets break them" statement.
My point was that it's pretty hard to pick a side on this, and ultimately it will be the fans that get screwed.

Brock
08-29-2010, 02:03 PM
Well there was an earlier article about this that basically said the players favor a system of free spending on salaries with no cap, which would basically put us back into the 80s and early 90s where teams could essentially buy Super Bowls. That kind of crap isn't going to endear me to their side either.

On the other hand, the players would gladly accept the deal they have now, even with a rookie salary cap. This is all about certain owners not wanting to share their money anymore.

Mecca
08-29-2010, 02:03 PM
My point was that it's pretty hard to pick a side on this, and ultimately it will be the fans that get screwed.

Sure, although I do have a hard time siding with billionaires who are crying poor as they own something worth 500 million dollars.

Considering the long term health affects I think football players deserve to get paid.