How old was Rich Ganon before he was a franchise QB?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I keep reading how Cassel is 28 and he is in his sixth season and if he hasn't gotten it by now, he never will. Perhaps we should look at someone who had very similar numbers through his first six seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted in 1987 by the Pats to be a defensive back. When he bristled at the idea, he was traded to Minnesota. In 1990, Gannon started 12 games. The Vikings had a 11-5 record, and the coaches went with Sean Salisbury. He played a lot over the years 1990-1992. He played in at least 12 games in each of those years, and never had more than 2278 yards. his passer rating was never more than 81.5. in 1990, he had 16 td's and 16 Int's. In 1991, he had 12 td's and 6 int's. in 1992, he had 12 Td's and 13 Int's. 1992 was his sixth season.

In 1993, he was picked up by the Redskins. He had three td's and seven interceptions. He played in only seven games. This was his seventh season.

His eighth season didn't come until 1995 because he was out of football in 1994. He had rotator cuff surgery in 1993, but no one was knocking down his door to get him under contract.

In 1995, Gannon worked out for the Chiefs and signed with the team as the BACKUP to Bono. He was a team player. A guy that would be the backup and not complain. A hard worker. The kind of player that coaches like.

He saw action in four games in 1996. He finally started to 'get it'. This was his 9th season. But, the Chiefs didn't have any faith in him and still went out and got Grbac. I believe Gannon signed a two year extension in 1996 because no one wanted him to be a starter.

Over the course of 1997 and 1998, he started a total of 16 games and played in a total of 21. His passer rating was about 80 over those two years. He threw for 3349 yards in those two seasons combined.

This was years 10 and 11.

The Raiders rewarded Gannon's mediocre numbers over his 11 seasons in the league with an opportunity to win the starting job.

We all know how it turned out.

This is a folk hero around these parts.... and yet, through his first 10 seasons, he was not an extremely accurate passer. He didn't throw downfield very well. He struggled to read defenses. And he was athletic.

Oh, AND he took a ton of sacks. He was sacked 302 times in 4206 pass attempts.

Heck, he wasn't even drafted to be a QB.


Through his first six seasons, Gannon had thrown 1003 passes. He had completed 561 passes. He completed 55.9% of his passes. He had 40 TD's and 36 Int's. He averaged 6.4 yards per attempt. He averaged 11.5 yards per completion. He had 81 sacks, or at about 8 percent of his pass attempts.

Through Cassel's first six seasons, he has thrown 1154 passes. He has completed 678 of them. He is completing 58.7% of his passes. He has 43 TD's. He has 32 Int's. He has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt. He has averaged 11.09 yards per completion. He has 96 sacks, which is about 8% of his pass attempts.

Will Cassel be Gannon? Probably not. But, Gannon wasn't Gannon until his 12th season in the league.... or twice as long as Cassel has been in the league...... That is when Gannon really got it and became a pro bowl QB.

[Fritz88]

Bidet
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

So...just several more years to go.

[milkman]

Cool.

6 more years and we'll have ourselves a franchise QB boys.

All we need is a little patience.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

So...just several more years to go.

I can't WAIT for 2016!!!!

[BigMeatballDave]

I don't consider Gannon a franchise QB.

[Brock]

I don't consider Gannon a franchise QB.

He wasn't.

[siberian khatru]

Cool.

6 more years and we'll have ourselves a franchise QB boys.

All we need is a little patience.

Should we sit Charles and McCluster, too, to save them for that time? Maybe hermetically seal them so they don't age?

[DeezNutz]

We're still waiting.

[SnakeXJones]

I think anybody would've been good with Rice and Brown as their WRs

[milkman]

Just think.

If we wait just 6 more years for Cassel to become a franchise QB like Gannon, we'll have a franchise QB for 4 years, just like Gannon was.

How could we ever ask for more?

We're so selfish.

[DeezNutz]

Where are all the posts reminding us about the Trent Green situation? How everyone was sure that this place criticized Green as sharply as Cassel and that the former proved all these non-GMs wrong?

They were pervasive leading up to the start of the season. Wonder why they stopped? And now it's Gannon?

[Bugeater]

We definitely want to model ourselves after the Raiders.

[milkman]

I don't consider Gannon a franchise QB.

Pffft......


Details.....details.

[RustShack]

So Cassel needs to get a hell of a lot more experience(and I'm assuming Gannon played QB in college, putting him ahead of the curve). THEN we need to injure his arm. Yeah I'd rather just draft a QB with more upside and get a better product in less time.

[Thig Lyfe]

Well, I'm convinced.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

We definitely want to model ourselves after the Raiders.

ROFL

[stevieray]

Where are all the posts reminding us about the Trent Green situation? How everyone was sure that this place criticized Green as sharply as Cassel and that the former proved all these non-GMs wrong?

They were pervasive leading up to the start of the season. Wonder why they stopped?

Green played worse his first year...and this season isn't over, well, at least for a few people.

[RustShack]

Well according to this, if he does become a good QB, it wont be with us.

[Deberg_1990]

:facepalm:

Its amazing to me the lengths fans will go to to try and polish a turd...

[DeezNutz]

Green played worse his first year...and this season isn't over, well, at least for a few people.

There's no question that Green was playing in a far more complicated offensive system, and our WRs were notably worse, too.

I don't know anyone who isn't excited about this season on the whole, let alone writing it off. For me, I'm hopeful for playoffs and a bit of noise.

And then I'm hopeful we shed our weakest link and get ready to compete for the whole thing.

[DJ's left nut]

How long until we hear about Jim Plunkett?

This is fucking pathetic.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Where are all the posts reminding us about the Trent Green situation? How everyone was sure that this place criticized Green as sharply as Cassel and that the former proved all these non-GMs wrong?

They were pervasive leading up to the start of the season. Wonder why they stopped? And now it's Gannon?

Green was in his 10th season before he put it together in KC. Green was 32 at the time...

[milkman]

Where are all the posts reminding us about the Trent Green situation? How everyone was sure that this place criticized Green as sharply as Cassel and that the former proved all these non-GMs wrong?

They were pervasive leading up to the start of the season. Wonder why they stopped? And now it's Gannon?

Their coat tails aren't as pervasive as the coat tails you are riding.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

There's no question that Green was playing in a far more complicated offensive system, and our WRs were notably worse, too.

I don't know anyone who isn't excited about this season on the whole, let alone writing it off. For me, I'm hopeful for playoffs and a bit of noise.

And then I'm hopeful we shed our weakest link and get ready to compete for the whole thing.

Wrong. Our WR's were not worse. Eddie Kennison was better than ANY WR on this team.

The offensive line was better. The running backs were better. The TE was better.

Dante Hall was similar to McCluster.

[stevieray]

There's no question that Green was playing in a far more complicated offensive system, and our WRs were notably worse, too.

I don't know anyone who isn't excited about this season on the whole, let alone writing it off. For me, I'm hopeful for playoffs and a bit of noise.

And then I'm hopeful we shed our weakest link and get ready to compete for the whole thing.
ya, and he had the same OC for his first two seasons.
...worse WR's? that's a wash.

[DeezNutz]

Green was in his 10th season before he put it together in KC. Green was 32 at the time...

Green had "put it together" before arriving in KC, but Rodney Harrison broke it apart.

The Green-Cassel comparisons hold no water, other than they both play QB, unfortunately for us as it pertains to Matt Edwards.

[siberian khatru]

How long until we hear about Jim Plunkett?



ROFL

[SenselessChiefsFan]

So Cassel needs to get a hell of a lot more experience(and I'm assuming Gannon played QB in college, putting him ahead of the curve). THEN we need to injure his arm. Yeah I'd rather just draft a QB with more upside and get a better product in less time.

Gannon played at Delaware. Cassel is actually ahead of where Gannon was in his sixth season.

[DeezNutz]

Wrong. Our WR's were not worse. Eddie Kennison was better than ANY WR on this team.

The offensive line was better. The running backs were better. The TE was better.

Dante Hall was similar to McCluster.

2001, when Green was TrINT.

[stevieray]

Green had "put it together" before arriving in KC, but Rodney Harrison broke it apart.

The Green-Cassel comparisons hold no water

you brought it up..oh wait..you weren't being sincere...:rolleyes:

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Green had "put it together" before arriving in KC, but Rodney Harrison broke it apart.

The Green-Cassel comparisons hold no water, other than they both play QB, unfortunately for us as it pertains to Matt Edwards.

Yeah, Green was doing well in the preseason... and preseason stats never lie.

[Bane]

Great!Casshole should be pro bowl caliber by time we give him another $60 million contract.Cool!
Posted via Mobile Device

[SenselessChiefsFan]

2001, when Green was TrINT.

Okay, in 2001, our WR's were crap... but even in 2001, the Chiefs offensive line was better. The Chiefs had Holmes, Richardson and Gonzalez....which was more than they had last year.

[DeezNutz]

Their coat tails aren't as pervasive as the coat tails you are riding.

I wouldn't have even started to post in this thread unless I was confident you were going to be here.

[DeezNutz]

Okay, in 2001, our WR's were crap... but even in 2001, the Chiefs offensive line was better. The Chiefs had Holmes, Richardson and Gonzalez....which was more than they had last year.

Roaf arrived in 2002, and this is when the line started its run as a dominant force. The current line is not nearly as good, but not even close to as bad as some would like to portray.

And 2001 Holmes wasn't the same, either, primarily b/c the staff didn't know what they had.

[OnTheWarpath15]

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm.gif

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Great!Casshole should be pro bowl caliber by time we give him another $60 million contract.Cool!
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not even saying that. He may never be a pro bowler. Just showing how guys can develop over time.

In fact, there are more examples of late bloomers at the QB position than any other position in the NFL.

The reality is that the biggest factor in QB play is reading defenses. The best way to read defenses is to work hard and to get experience.

This isn't about me proclaiming that Cassel will be the next Gannon. The next Green. The next Warner.

This is just pointing out that guys learn and develop at different rates. Cassel is at a disadvantage due to his lack of time in college..... and riding the bench in NE for three years.

He is still only 28 and has only six years in the league.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Roaf arrived in 2002, and this is when the line started its run as a dominant force. The current line is not nearly as good, but not even close to as bad as some would like to portray.

And 2001 Holmes wasn't the same, either, primarily b/c the staff didn't know what they had.

I know this will get me flamed, but Cassel has done a good job of getting rid of the ball when nothing is open.

[RustShack]

I know this will get me flamed, but Cassel has done a good job of getting rid of the ball when nothing is open.

Hes also done a bad job of throwing to open receivers.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Roaf arrived in 2002, and this is when the line started its run as a dominant force. The current line is not nearly as good, but not even close to as bad as some would like to portray.

And 2001 Holmes wasn't the same, either, primarily b/c the staff didn't know what they had.

In 2001, the line was still better than this one.

And, Holmes was great from the third game on in 2001.

The WR's did suck though.

In 2002, the entire offense was much better than the current offense.

[patteeu]

As impressive as your argument is, SensibleChiefsFan, it's clear that the facts it's based on don't fit the preferred narrative around here. The narrative must be maintained. I applaud your effort though.

http://blog.blacknight.com/images/headinthesand.jpg

It's pretty safe to proclaim in the most definitive and belligerent terms that Matt Cassel isn't the QB this team needs because in all likelihood he won't be. And if the stars align and he actually becomes a Gannon-like exception, it will be easy enough for these people to shrug their shoulders and say that they just made a mistake like everyone else does from time to time. It takes no courage and very little thought to join the Cassel-can't-cut-it chorus, but by joining the in-crowd you get to get in on a lot more high fives I guess.

[Bane]

I'm not even saying that. He may never be a pro bowler. Just showing how guys can develop over time.

In fact, there are more examples of late bloomers at the QB position than any other position in the NFL.

The reality is that the biggest factor in QB play is reading defenses. The best way to read defenses is to work hard and to get experience.

This isn't about me proclaiming that Cassel will be the next Gannon. The next Green. The next Warner.

This is just pointing out that guys learn and develop at different rates. Cassel is at a disadvantage due to his lack of time in college..... and riding the bench in NE for three years.

He is still only 28 and has only six years in the league.

Great outlook,but IMO you're wrong about Cassel if you think that will ever be him.Its cool though,I understand what its like.I remember being a kid and tuning in every game thinking we had the best players and would be in the SB every year.Then I started paying more attention to the players,coaches and the game itself and I realized that train of thought is foolish.
Posted via Mobile Device

[SenselessChiefsFan]

This isn't an absolute comparison, just something to make some people think. Sorry, shouldn't have done that.

[milkman]

This isn't an absolute comparison, just something to make some people think. Sorry, shouldn't have done that.

The NFL is littered with hundreds of QBs that never developed.

The Gannons, Warners and Plunkets of the world are exceptions.

I have no desire to wait years to find out of Cassel is one of those rare exceptions.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Matt Cassel sucks. Rich Gannon is awesome. There's a difference.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

As impressive as your argument is, SensibleChiefsFan, it's clear that the facts it's based on don't fit the preferred narrative around here. The narrative must be maintained. I applaud your effort though.

http://blog.blacknight.com/images/headinthesand.jpg

It's pretty safe to proclaim in the most definitive and belligerent terms that Matt Cassel isn't the QB this team needs because in all likelihood he won't be. And if the stars align and he actually becomes a Gannon-like exception, it will be easy enough for these people to shrug their shoulders and say that they just made a mistake like everyone else does from time to time. It takes no courage and very little thought to join the Cassel-can't-cut-it chorus, but by joining the in-crowd you get to get in on a lot more high fives I guess.

Goddamnit Man! This is no longer about fucking "high fives" or circle-jerking; it's about a GLARING DEFICIENCY THAT IS HOLDING THIS TEAM BACK.
If you can not see this, then you should join your "sand brethren" pictured above and just call it a night.

[patteeu]

The NFL is littered with hundreds of QBs that never developed.

The Gannons, Warners and Plunkets of the world are exceptions.

I have no desire to wait years to find out of Cassel is one of those rare exceptions.

I agree with this. Even if Cassel becomes Gannon-like 6 years from now, I wouldn't want to live through the next 5 years with him as the Chiefs QB. But if he shows indications over the next 12 games that he could be Gannon-like next year, that would be a good thing and it would give the Chiefs the luxury of continuing to look for a developmental project QB with a 2-4 year maturation window instead of needing to find a new starting QB. And if he doesn't show that kind of progress over the next 12 games then more effort to move in a different direction is warranted.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

The NFL is littered with hundreds of QBs that never developed.

The Gannons, Warners and Plunkets of the world are exceptions.

I have no desire to wait years to find out of Cassel is one of those rare exceptions.

Cassel is already better than hundreds of QB's that never developed. As it is, he is an NFL caliber QB. If nothing else, a top tier backup.... but he has gotten himself a lot further than those hundreds of guys who never developed.

Now, I have not desire to wait 'years' to find out if Cassel is developed. I think the Texans game will tell us much about him, and by the end of this season, we should have a pretty good read on him.

It will be curious to see how he responds when the coaches ask more out of him.

While I don't think he is the answer, I just don't try to deal in absolutes when it comes to sports. I have watched the NFL too long to ever think anything is a certainty.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I agree with this. Even if Cassel becomes Gannon-like 6 years from now, I wouldn't want to live through the next 5 years with him as the Chiefs QB. But if he shows indications over the next 12 games that he could be Gannon-like next year, that would be a good thing and it would give the Chiefs the luxury of continuing to look for a developmental project QB with a 2-4 year maturation window instead of needing to find a new starting QB. And if he doesn't show that kind of progress over the next 12 games then more effort to move in a different direction is warranted.

"ALLLLL WE ARE SAYYYYYYYY-INGGGGGG"LMAO

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I agree with this. Even if Cassel becomes Gannon-like 6 years from now, I wouldn't want to live through the next 5 years with him as the Chiefs QB. But if he shows indications over the next 12 games that he could be Gannon-like next year, that would be a good thing and it would give the Chiefs the luxury of continuing to look for a developmental project QB with a 2-4 year maturation window instead of needing to find a new starting QB. And if he doesn't show that kind of progress over the next 12 games then more effort to move in a different direction is warranted.

This is a solid take. Of course, you are stupid because Cassel sucks/cp.

[stevieray]

As impressive as your argument is, SensibleChiefsFan, it's clear that the facts it's based on don't fit the preferred narrative around here. The narrative must be maintained. I applaud your effort though.

http://blog.blacknight.com/images/headinthesand.jpg

It's pretty safe to proclaim in the most definitive and belligerent terms that Matt Cassel isn't the QB this team needs because in all likelihood he won't be. And if the stars align and he actually becomes a Gannon-like exception, it will be easy enough for these people to shrug their shoulders and say that they just made a mistake like everyone else does from time to time. It takes no courage and very little thought to join the Cassel-can't-cut-it chorus, but by joining the in-crowd you get to get in on a lot more high fives I guess.

that's annoying....eleventy billion negative comments marginalized with a half assed 'crow' post.

[Bane]

"ALLLLL WE ARE SAYYYYYYYY-INGGGGGG"LMAO

Hey if we keep Casshole we'll have our guy in place for the next rebuild!WIN BABY!
Posted via Mobile Device

[memyselfI]

I've been a Cassel proponent but I believe that he's proving to be closer to Elvis Grbac than Rich Gannon...

unfortunately.

OP omitted the fact that if Gannon had been given the chance he received at Oakland while at KC he would have likely gotten his groove on even sooner.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Hey if we keep Casshole we'll have our guy in place for the next rebuild!WIN BABY!
Posted via Mobile Device

It would be like having our very own, super-sucky FAVRE!!!!!!!!!

[patteeu]

Goddamnit Man! This is no longer about ****ing "high fives" or circle-jerking; it's about a GLARING DEFICIENCY THAT IS HOLDING THIS TEAM BACK.
If you can not see this, then you should join your "sand brethren" pictured above and just call it a night.

The team is 3-1 so far this year. In the one loss, Cassel is pretty far down on the list of people who held the team back with Succop (9 yard onside kick and missed 51 yard field goal), Bowe (2 drops in a row at a crucial point in the game) and Charles (hot potato hot potato) all making arguable claims for spots on the list ahead of him.

There's no doubt that Cassel will need to do more than he's done so far this year to get the team in a position to be playoff contenders, but to call him a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back is quite a bit of an overstatement at this point, IMO.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

that's annoying....eleventy billion negative comments marginalized with a half assed 'crow' post.

The funniest part is that people let these "know it all's" bully them into not even producing an object point of view on here.

Heck, I got a ton of crap because I refused to accept that Hali couldn't make it as a 3-4 OLB. Heck, when I saw him play, he fit perfectly. I said what I thought. I got bashed over and over again. Even last year, when Hali was the best player in the front seven and the only guy the offense had to account for..... he sucked.

This year, he gets a few sacks because the talent around him is playing better... and suddenly guys want to gloss over it with 'oops'... and now they 'love' Hali.

That is why I try to stay away from absolutes.

[jbwm89]

Gannon was the exception, not the rule

[patteeu]

Gannon was the exception, not the rule

Repost. Everyone agrees with this.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I've been a Cassel proponent but I believe that he's proving to be closer to Elvis Grbac than Rich Gannon...

unfortunately.

OP omitted the fact that if Gannon had been given the chance he received at Oakland while at KC he would have likely gotten his groove on even sooner.

He was given three straight years in Minnesota. His fourth, fifth and sixth. The comparisons through six years are very appropriate given that Cassel has started the majority of the fourth, fifth and is in his sixth season. And, Gannon didn't have to cope with a completely different team.

He didn't make it to KC until his eighth season.

So, even if he were handed the reigns in his first year, he wouldn't have developed any earlier than his eighth season.

He was given the opportunity to beat out Bono after Montana retired. He couldn't beat out Bono. When the Chiefs decided Bono wasn't the answer, they went after Grbac. He wasn't even considered.

[jbwm89]

Repost. Everyone agrees with this.

everyone agrees that Cassel sucks but I read it on here 1,000 times a day. It is a miracle that you managed to get to 46,000 posts without a repost

[Thig Lyfe]

There's no doubt that Cassel will need to do more than he's done so far this year to get the team in a position to be playoff contenders, but to call him a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back is quite a bit of an overstatement at this point, IMO.

I find it hard to describe Cassel as anything but "a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back."

The playbook is cut in half to begin with because of his lack of talent. And the plays they are comfortable calling for Cassel are rarely executed.

Trying to claim that Cassel is anything but problem #1 is absurd.

[MadMax]

I keep reading how Cassel is 28 and he is in his sixth season and if he hasn't gotten it by now, he never will. Perhaps we should look at someone who had very similar numbers through his first six seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted in 1987 by the Pats to be a defensive back. When he bristled at the idea, he was traded to Minnesota. In 1990, Gannon started 12 games. The Vikings had a 11-5 record, and the coaches went with Sean Salisbury. He played a lot over the years 1990-1992. He played in at least 12 games in each of those years, and never had more than 2278 yards. his passer rating was never more than 81.5. in 1990, he had 16 td's and 16 Int's. In 1991, he had 12 td's and 6 int's. in 1992, he had 12 Td's and 13 Int's. 1992 was his sixth season.

In 1993, he was picked up by the Redskins. He had three td's and seven interceptions. He played in only seven games. This was his seventh season.

His eighth season didn't come until 1995 because he was out of football in 1994. He had rotator cuff surgery in 1993, but no one was knocking down his door to get him under contract.

In 1995, Gannon worked out for the Chiefs and signed with the team as the BACKUP to Bono. He was a team player. A guy that would be the backup and not complain. A hard worker. The kind of player that coaches like.

He saw action in four games in 1996. He finally started to 'get it'. This was his 9th season. But, the Chiefs didn't have any faith in him and still went out and got Grbac. I believe Gannon signed a two year extension in 1996 because no one wanted him to be a starter.

Over the course of 1997 and 1998, he started a total of 16 games and played in a total of 21. His passer rating was about 80 over those two years. He threw for 3349 yards in those two seasons combined.

This was years 10 and 11.

The Raiders rewarded Gannon's mediocre numbers over his 11 seasons in the league with an opportunity to win the starting job.

We all know how it turned out.

This is a folk hero around these parts.... and yet, through his first 10 seasons, he was not an extremely accurate passer. He didn't throw downfield very well. He struggled to read defenses. And he was athletic.

Oh, AND he took a ton of sacks. He was sacked 302 times in 4206 pass attempts.

Heck, he wasn't even drafted to be a QB.


Through his first six seasons, Gannon had thrown 1003 passes. He had completed 561 passes. He completed 55.9% of his passes. He had 40 TD's and 36 Int's. He averaged 6.4 yards per attempt. He averaged 11.5 yards per completion. He had 81 sacks, or at about 8 percent of his pass attempts.

Through Cassel's first six seasons, he has thrown 1154 passes. He has completed 678 of them. He is completing 58.7% of his passes. He has 43 TD's. He has 32 Int's. He has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt. He has averaged 11.09 yards per completion. He has 96 sacks, which is about 8% of his pass attempts.

Will Cassel be Gannon? Probably not. But, Gannon wasn't Gannon until his 12th season in the league.... or twice as long as Cassel has been in the league...... That is when Gannon really got it and became a pro bowl QB.




Are you freakin retarded??

[Chiefs Rool]

because obviously if Rich Gannon did it, that 100% guarantee's that Cassel will do it too. It's physics.

[RealSNR]

Well guys, I just got off the phone with Pioli. I'm your new Chiefs starting QB. Looney's gonna announce it on Twitter in a couple minutes.

Just so you know, I haven't played since high school. I'll probably suck ass but just remember: If you want Rich Gannon, you're gonna have to give me a few seasons.

[MadMax]

OMFGJFC!!! Someone is still defending the turd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I find it hard to describe Cassel as anything but "a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back."

The playbook is cut in half to begin with because of his lack of talent. And the plays they are comfortable calling for Cassel are rarely executed.

Trying to claim that Cassel is anything but problem #1 is absurd.

:thumb:

[milkman]

The team is 3-1 so far this year. In the one loss, Cassel is pretty far down on the list of people who held the team back with Succop (9 yard onside kick and missed 51 yard field goal), Bowe (2 drops in a row at a crucial point in the game) and Charles (hot potato hot potato) all making arguable claims for spots on the list ahead of him.

There's no doubt that Cassel will need to do more than he's done so far this year to get the team in a position to be playoff contenders, but to call him a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back is quite a bit of an overstatement at this point, IMO.

Games are turned on a few plays.

There are a few plays and decisions that you can point to that helped to turn the game in the Colts favor that were not Cassel's fault.

But when you watch a QB, you ask yourself, is this the guy that can make plays that turn games in your favor.

If the answer is no, then that shouldn't be your QB.

The QB is the leader.
He is the guy that has to exude confidence, that the team has to believe in.

That guy is not Cassel.

He is not the guy that is going to make that play that changes momentum.

He didn't make the mistakes that you pointed to, but he didn't do anything to overcome those mistakes.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Well guys, I just got off the phone with Pioli. I'm your new Chiefs starting QB. Looney's gonna announce it on Twitter in a couple minutes.

Just so you know, I haven't played since high school. I'll probably suck ass but just remember: If you want Rich Gannon, you're gonna have to give me a few seasons.

You're hired.

[patteeu]

everyone agrees that Cassel sucks but I read it on here 1,000 times a day. It is a miracle that you managed to get to 46,000 posts without a repost

Sorry, man. Nothing personal. I was just pointing out that even the thread starter had agreed that Gannon was an exceptional case.

BTW, I did make a repost once when I realized that ROR was into gay midget porn. Turns out, everyone already knew it and it had been much discussed. :thumb:

[MadMax]

You guys are beyond absurd!!!!!!!!!!! Defending that Piece of crap I hope you wear it as a badge of dishonor forever as a so called Chiefs fan.

[patteeu]

I find it hard to describe Cassel as anything but "a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back."

The playbook is cut in half to begin with because of his lack of talent. And the plays they are comfortable calling for Cassel are rarely executed.

Trying to claim that Cassel is anything but problem #1 is absurd.

He plays the most important position on the team. If he doesn't perform, it's obviously problem #1. So far, his performance hasn't held the team back though.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Sorry, man. Nothing personal. I was just pointing out that even the thread starter had agreed that Gannon was an exceptional case.

BTW, I did make a repost once when I realized that ROR was into gay midget porn. Turns out, everyone already knew it and it had been much discussed. :thumb:

:facepalm:

[MadMax]

Sorry, man. Nothing personal. I was just pointing out that even the thread starter had agreed that Gannon was an exceptional case.

BTW, I did make a repost once when I realized that ROR was into gay midget porn. Turns out, everyone already knew it and it had been much discussed. :thumb:




You are a POS Did you know that?

[milkman]

The funniest part is that people let these "know it all's" bully them into not even producing an object point of view on here.

Heck, I got a ton of crap because I refused to accept that Hali couldn't make it as a 3-4 OLB. Heck, when I saw him play, he fit perfectly. I said what I thought. I got bashed over and over again. Even last year, when Hali was the best player in the front seven and the only guy the offense had to account for..... he sucked.

This year, he gets a few sacks because the talent around him is playing better... and suddenly guys want to gloss over it with 'oops'... and now they 'love' Hali.

That is why I try to stay away from absolutes.

JFC, you little pussy.

Everyone of us here have supported an unpopular opinion at one time or another and taken shit for it.

And some of us have been proven right over time.

Hope you didn't get your vag hurt too badly

[cdcox]

Rich Gannon was never a franchise QB.

He was a system QB for four years.

For four years, he put up good numbers with two HOF WRs in a dink-and-dunk offense where most of the passing yards came off YAC. It was a west coast offense oriented to take advantage of his scrambling abilities.

In the most important game of his life he threw 5 interceptions. He is a loser and a choker.

A true franchise QB leads a team for 10 years. He can play in different systems. He can carry his team when the chips are down. He leads comebacks.

Rich Gannon. (spits)

[MadMax]

You are a POS Did you know that?




OK maybe I shouldn't get personal, my bad :(

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I find it hard to describe Cassel as anything but "a glaring deficiency that's holding the team back."

The playbook is cut in half to begin with because of his lack of talent. And the plays they are comfortable calling for Cassel are rarely executed.

Trying to claim that Cassel is anything but problem #1 is absurd.

Wow..... who knew you had so much insight into the Chiefs playcalling.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Rich Gannon was never a franchise QB.

He was a system QB for four years.

For four years, he put up good numbers with two HOF WRs in a dink-and-dunk offense where most of the passing yards came of YAC. It was a west coast offense oriented to take advantage of his scrambling abilities.

In the most important game of his life he threw 5 interceptions. He is a loser and a choker.

A true franchise QB leads a team for 10 years. He can play in different systems. He can carry his team when the chips are down. He leads comebacks.

Rich Gannon. (spits)

ROFL

[patteeu]

You are a POS Did you know that?

You seem kind of cranky.

[Ebolapox]

jesus fucking christ. srsly?

[Sully]

I say we bring in Akili Smith and Jamarcus Russell.
They're due... Just like Gannon!

[SenselessChiefsFan]

because obviously if Rich Gannon did it, that 100% guarantee's that Cassel will do it too. It's physics.

Way to jump to conclusions. I made it clear that this was not an absolute correlation....only something to give some thought.

See, I try to avoid absolutes.

[Sully]

Wow..... who knew you had so much insight into the Chiefs playcalling.

It's clear just by watching.
On important plays, Cassell has been given no more than one option. No reads, no choices. Snap the ball and throw to "this" guy.

[Bane]

I say we bring in Akili Smith and Jamarcus Russell.
They're due... Just like Gannon!

John motherfucking Kitna!FTW!!!!!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

He plays the most important position on the team. If he doesn't perform, it's obviously problem #1. So far, his performance hasn't held the team back though.

The team is 3-1, but if you can watch the games and come to the conclusion that his perfomance isn't holding this team back in a league whose rules are set up to allow QBs maximum effectiveness, then I have to say that you really don't know what you are watching.

[DeezNutz]

He plays the most important position on the team. If he doesn't perform, it's obviously problem #1. So far, his performance hasn't held the team back though.

True enough. We didn't even need an offensive touchdown in Cleveland. And shit, possibly looking to Brokaki or Castille wouldn't have been fruitful in IND, either.

It's ALL Bowe's fault.

[RustShack]

So people go off about QB's like Quinn, Croyle, Sanchez, Clausen, and the list goes on not producing in one season(or two, you get the point)... but they go on to say QB's who aren't talented deserve six+ years?

JFC

[Bane]

It's clear just by watching.
On important plays, Cassell has been given no more than one option. No reads, no choices. Snap the ball and throw to "this" guy.

Oh come on now!You gotta love the 3 yard dump off to the RB on 3rd and 17 with a wide open WR 27 yards deep.
Posted via Mobile Device

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Games are turned on a few plays.

There are a few plays and decisions that you can point to that helped to turn the game in the Colts favor that were not Cassel's fault.

But when you watch a QB, you ask yourself, is this the guy that can make plays that turn games in your favor.

If the answer is no, then that shouldn't be your QB.

The QB is the leader.
He is the guy that has to exude confidence, that the team has to believe in.

That guy is not Cassel.

He is not the guy that is going to make that play that changes momentum.

He didn't make the mistakes that you pointed to, but he didn't do anything to overcome those mistakes.

Yeah, putting the ball in the hands of a WR isn't a momentum changing play.... well, when that Wr drops the ball, I guess it isn't.

[MadMax]

You seem kind of cranky.

I did say It wasn't personal but I guess it didn't post :)

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

OK maybe I shouldn't get personal, my bad :(

It posted.

[milkman]

Yeah, putting the ball in the hands of a WR isn't a momentum changing play.... well, when that Wr drops the ball, I guess it isn't.

The Chiefs were harrasing Manning much of the day.

His receivers also made some drops in that game, yet he found a way to overcome that.

Matt Cassel wasn't harrassed, not to the level of Manning, and he had receivers make some drops.

He couldn't overcome that to the point that he threw ten consecutive incompletions.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

So people go off about QB's like Quinn, Croyle, Sanchez, Clausen, and the list goes on not producing in one season(or two, you get the point)... but they go on to say QB's who aren't talented deserve six+ years?

JFC

Guys aren't in the NFL without talent.

[RustShack]

Guys aren't in the NFL without talent.

OK low talent for NFL standards. Come on lets be sensible here.

[milkman]

Oh, and Bowe's drop came at a time when the Chiefs were in charge and had the momentum.

Let me know when Cassel makes a play to seize momentum.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Guys aren't in the NFL without talent.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

http://justblogbaby.com/files/2009/05/jruss.jpg

[Bane]

Guys aren't in the NFL without talent.

Ryan Leaf says thanks bro!
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

Ryan Leaf says thanks bro!
Posted via Mobile Device

He actually had a shit ton of natural talent. No heart or brain.

Just like Grbac was the model of a franchise QB, sans the heart, will, and leadership.

[stevieray]

Oh, and Bowe's drop came at a time when the Chiefs were in charge and had the momentum.

Let me know when Cassel makes a play to seize momentum.

:rolleyes:

[SenselessChiefsFan]

The Chiefs were harrasing Manning much of the day.

His receivers also made some drops in that game, yet he found a way to overcome that.

Matt Cassel wasn't harrassed, not to the level of Manning, and he had receivers make some drops.

He couldn't overcome that to the point that he threw ten consecutive incompletions.


I actually heard that on the broadcast too.... of course it was wrong. He had just completed one to Charles.

He had six incomplete passes in a row. And, two of those were drops by Bowe.

But, don't let the facts get in the way.

[milkman]

Ryan Leaf says thanks bro!
Posted via Mobile Device

Ryan Leaf had all the tangilble talent you could ask for.

His problem was the fact that he was a headcase.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

http://justblogbaby.com/files/2009/05/jruss.jpg


Talent wasn't his problem....if you don't realize that, then there isn't much we will see eye to eye on.

[milkman]

I actually heard that on the broadcast too.... of course it was wrong. He had just completed one to Charles.

He had six incomplete passes. And, two of those were drops by Bowe.

But, don't let the facts get in the way.

Oh yeah, I am forgetting about the screen pass.

But the point still stands.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Oh, and Bowe's drop came at a time when the Chiefs were in charge and had the momentum.

Let me know when Cassel makes a play to seize momentum.

Yeah, they were on the road and behind... I can see how you would think that.

[milkman]

:rolleyes:

Well?

You got one?

Let me know or take your rolleyes and shove 'em up Elvis decaying ass.

[Bane]

Ryan Leaf had all the tangilble talent you could ask for.

His problem was the fact that he was a headcase.

That's one way to see it, I just never thought he was that talented.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

That's one way to see it, I just never thought he was talented.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ah....

I see the problem.

You "thought".

[milkman]

Yeah, they were on the road and behind... I can see how you would think that.

They were winning the battles in the trenches, and had Manning frustarted and confused.

The fact they were behind is a byproduct of our inferior QB play, but at that point, they were dictating the game, even though they were behind.

[patteeu]

The team is 3-1, but if you can watch the games and come to the conclusion that his perfomance isn't holding this team back in a league whose rules are set up to allow QBs maximum effectiveness, then I have to say that you really don't know what you are watching.

This is a semantic argument not one of substance. You could say the same thing about most QBs in the league. Until he starts costing the Chiefs games, I don't consider it holding them back. If you do, it just means we don't agree on the meaning of the term.

I won't be put into the Cassel-supporter box because I'm not saying nor have I ever suggested that he's doing what needs to be done to earn the job beyond this season. That remains to be seen.

[Bane]

Ah....

I see the problem.

You "thought".

Could have been blind homerism with him being a Charger and all I guess.
Posted via Mobile Device

[patteeu]

I did say It wasn't personal but I guess it didn't post :)

It posted, but I didn't read it until after I posted the part about being cranky. I repped you for it though to let you know I saw it.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Oh yeah, I am forgetting about the screen pass.

But the point still stands.

I would expect nothing else but a deflection when your facts are incorrect.

[patteeu]

I say we bring in Akili Smith and Jamarcus Russell.
They're due... Just like Gannon!

Good argument... if you're a 4th grader.

I know, I know, you're not really being serious. Just looking for a few high fives. I get it.

[stevieray]

Well?

You got one?

Let me know or take your rolleyes and shove 'em up Elvis decaying ass.

:rolleyes:

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I think Rich Gannon proved without a shadow of a doubt in Super Bowl XXXVII the difference between a franchise QB and a system QB.

[Valiant]

I'm not even saying that. He may never be a pro bowler. Just showing how guys can develop over time.

In fact, there are more examples of late bloomers at the QB position than any other position in the NFL.

The reality is that the biggest factor in QB play is reading defenses. The best way to read defenses is to work hard and to get experience.

This isn't about me proclaiming that Cassel will be the next Gannon. The next Green. The next Warner.

This is just pointing out that guys learn and develop at different rates. Cassel is at a disadvantage due to his lack of time in college..... and riding the bench in NE for three years.

He is still only 28 and has only six years in the league.

You have been here for a couple years in November.. When are you expecting to turn into a better poster without so many idiotic threads??

[DeezNutz]

Until he starts costing the Chiefs games, I don't consider it holding them back.

The fact that he has a very limited skill set that restricts what the team can do offensively isn't considered holding them back? No offensive TDs in any road game, and the "leader" of the offense (who leads by never taking accountability) has to shoulder a decent portion of blame.

[milkman]

This is a semantic argument not one of substance. You could say the same thing about most QBs in the league. Until he starts costing the Chiefs games, I don't consider it holding them back. If you do, it just means we don't agree on the meaning of the term.

I won't be put into the Cassel-supporter box because I'm not saying nor have I ever suggested that he's doing what needs to be done to earn the job beyond this season. That remains to be seen.

No. it isn't a semantic argument.

If you watch this team and believe that the defense is playing as well as can be expected, and better than we could have hoped, and you believe that the O-Line is improved and providing time in the pocket, and craeting holes for the running game, and you this offense has the talent at hand to put points on the board, but the QB is a deficiancy that keeps that from happening then the answer is that the QB is holding this team back.

If you watch this team and tell me that the offense would struggle just as much to score points with a better QB, then I don't think you are being nearly as objective as you are trying to paint yourself to be.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

They were winning the battles in the trenches, and had Manning frustarted and confused.

The fact they were behind is a byproduct of our inferior QB play, but at that point, they were dictating the game, even though they were behind.

Of course...

Now, at this point, Charles had fumbled on a promising drive and Cassel was 10 of 14, but it was a byproduct of inferior QB play.

Had Bowe actually caught the ball, he would be 11 of 15 with a TD.... but he drops the ball. 10 of 15.

Bowe drops the next one as well.

But, the Chiefs were handling the Colts with no problem other than that horrible QB.

This is why the anti Cassel crowd gets further and further away from any semblance of logic.

[stevieray]

This is a semantic argument not one of substance. You could say the same thing about most QBs in the league. Until he starts costing the Chiefs games, I don't consider it holding them back. If you do, it just means we don't agree on the meaning of the term.

I won't be put into the Cassel-supporter box because I'm not saying nor have I ever suggested that he's doing what needs to be done to earn the job beyond this season. That remains to be seen.
...amazing how the Colts won in spite of their "franchise" QB... even when Charles got more carries...:doh!:

the goal posts have been constantly moved since Haley has been hired...remember all the BS posted about him last year?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I think Rich Gannon proved without a shadow of a doubt in Super Bowl XXXVII the difference between a franchise QB and a system QB.

I think the actual difference was Callahan versus Gruden.

[milkman]

I would expect nothing else but a deflection when your facts are incorrect.

I have a solid record of admitting when I am wrong, so fuck you, you worthless little cunt.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

You have been here for a couple years in November.. When are you expecting to turn into a better poster without so many idiotic threads??

I thought the idea was to generate conversation.

You thought enough to drop in. Mission accomplished.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I have a solid record of admitting when I am wrong, so fuck you, you worthless little cunt.

ROFL

[milkman]

Of course...

Now, at this point, Charles had fumbled on a promising drive and Cassel was 10 of 14, but it was a byproduct of inferior QB play.

Had Bowe actually caught the ball, he would be 11 of 15 with a TD.... but he drops the ball. 10 of 15.

Bowe drops the next one as well.

But, the Chiefs were handling the Colts with no problem other than that horrible QB.

This is why the anti Cassel crowd gets further and further away from any semblance of logic.

Cassel was 10-14 for how many yards?

He had 110 yards leading up to the last possesion, when the Colts were in prevent.

110 yards with about 5 minutes remaining.

Now tell me how that isn't pathetic.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

...amazing how the Colts won in spite of their "franchise" QB... even when Charles got more carries...:doh!:

the goal posts have been constantly moved since Haley has been hired...remember all the BS posted about him last year?

Are these the goalposts that showed:

Cassel could be like Brady

Cassel is ready to step in and lead right away, unlike a rookie QB

Cassel could be Trent Green


Cassel is better than Sanchez

Cassel needs as much time as Sanchez

Cassel could be like Dilfer

Now, all six of these arguments have been made, in succession. If this is not moving the goalposts relative to Matt Cassel, then what is?

[patteeu]

The fact that he has a very limited skill set that restricts what the team can do offensively isn't considered holding them back? No offensive TDs in any road game, and the "leader" of the offense (who leads by never taking accountability) has to shoulder a decent portion of blame.

I don't know where you guys get this "never taking accountability" thing. I've heard him hold himself accountable on several occasions. The fact that he doesn't say "I suck and I'll never be the kind of QB this team needs" isn't a sign that he refuses to take accountability.

[stevieray]

I think the actual difference was Callahan versus Gruden.absolutely..Gruden had them totally prepared for gannon, even taking snaps at QB to show them how to read him behind center.

still, it was fun to watch the faiders crash and burn.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I have a solid record of admitting when I am wrong, so **** you, you worthless little ****.

Actually, you are one of the better posters. But, not when you still think you are right about the overall subject ...ie: Cassel sucks.

In other words, you will bend any facts you need to fit your argument.

You specifically mentioned 10 straight incompletions. When that number isn't a 'little' wrong, it is way off. It was only six, and two of those were drops. Two in a freaking row. Two when Cassel was 10 of 14.

Two, when the Chiefs needed a play to change momentum and really put fear into Indy.

Instead, Bowe drops them and Indy is just confirmed in their believe that they got this.

Manning actually settled down after that drop and played better the rest of the game.

[patteeu]

No. it isn't a semantic argument.

If you watch this team and believe that the defense is playing as well as can be expected, and better than we could have hoped, and you believe that the O-Line is improved and providing time in the pocket, and craeting holes for the running game, and you this offense has the talent at hand to put points on the board, but the QB is a deficiancy that keeps that from happening then the answer is that the QB is holding this team back.

If you watch this team and tell me that the offense would struggle just as much to score points with a better QB, then I don't think you are being nearly as objective as you are trying to paint yourself to be.

I have to assume you don't know what the word semantic means.

I've defined my terms and I'll stick with them, thank you.

[stevieray]

Cassel was 10-14 for how many yards?

He had 110 yards leading up to the last possesion, when the Colts were in prevent.

110 yards with about 5 minutes remaining.

Now tell me how that isn't pathetic.
they got the ball for the second time with 8 minutes left in the second qtr.

[DeezNutz]

I don't know where you guys get this "never taking accountability" thing. I've heard him hold himself accountable on several occasions. The fact that he doesn't say "I suck and I'll never be the kind of QB this team needs" isn't a sign that he refuses to take accountability.

"Graded out perfectly." "Executed the game plan well. . . . Can't ask for much more." Yeah, no idea.

And hyperbolic comment at the end is hyperbolic.

[milkman]

I don't know where you guys get this "never taking accountability" thing. I've heard him hold himself accountable on several occasions. The fact that he doesn't say "I suck and I'll never be the kind of QB this team needs" isn't a sign that he refuses to take accountability.

Please. link us to one of those several occassions, cause all I've ever seen is "I graded out perfect" in a game he threw four interceptions, and "I played as well as I could" in this game.

Oh.....wait, I believe him on that second one there, so I'll give him a pass on that one.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I think the actual difference was Callahan versus Gruden.

Which is obviously why Dan Reeves handed John Elway's ass to him in Super Bowl XXXIII.

Gruden coached Gannon for what, 4 years? Elway spent a decade under Reeves.

[BigMeatballDave]

Of course...

Now, at this point, Charles had fumbled on a promising drive and Cassel was 10 of 14, but it was a byproduct of inferior QB play.

Had Bowe actually caught the ball, he would be 11 of 15 with a TD.... but he drops the ball. 10 of 15.

Bowe drops the next one as well.

But, the Chiefs were handling the Colts with no problem other than that horrible QB.

This is why the anti Cassel crowd gets further and further away from any semblance of logic.Go hump a cactus. If you cant see why Matt Cassel is a problem, you should stop watching football.

[patteeu]

...amazing how the Colts won in spite of their "franchise" QB... even when Charles got more carries...:doh!:

the goal posts have been constantly moved since Haley has been hired...remember all the BS posted about him last year?

Yep. Excellent points.

[DeezNutz]

I think pat is allowing comments like "we need to execute better" as a sign of personal accountability. This might be one thing, if it weren't juxtaposed with the "I executed pretty well" talk.

[cdcox]

I think the actual difference was Callahan versus Gruden.

Franchise QBs don't fall apart when they run into bad coaches.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

they got the ball for the second time with 8 minutes left in the second qtr.

He had 21 passes for a robust average of 5 YPA up until that point.

http://oi28.tinypic.com/1olq2s.jpg

[milkman]

Actually, you are one of the better posters. But, not when you still think you are right about the overall subject ...ie: Cassel sucks.

In other words, you will bend any facts you need to fit your argument.

You specifically mentioned 10 straight incompletions. When that number isn't a 'little' wrong, it is way off. It was only six, and two of those were drops. Two in a freaking row. Two when Cassel was 10 of 14.

Two, when the Chiefs needed a play to change momentum and really put fear into Indy.

Instead, Bowe drops them and Indy is just confirmed in their believe that they got this.

Manning actually settled down after that drop and played better the rest of the game.

No, dumbass, I menetioned 10 in a row because I did hear that, and I did forget about the screen pass in the middle of that stretch even though it was pointed out almost immediatley in the chat while we were watching.

But the point of the post still stands.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Cassel was 10-14 for how many yards?

He had 110 yards leading up to the last possesion, when the Colts were in prevent.

110 yards with about 5 minutes remaining.

Now tell me how that isn't pathetic.

It was the gameplan. Dink and dunk. Even still, Cassel hit some very nice passes. And, he had found a rhythym.

The Chiefs had just converted 3rd down when Albert got a ticky tack holding call.

The Chiefs were moving the ball when Charles fumbled on the first drive and had to get the ball back.

The Chiefs were moving the ball when Charles fumbled and lost possession.

The Chiefs would have actually had a lead when Bowe drops a perfect pass.

And, yet, the lack of offense was Cassel's fault.

Oh, and you mentioned you hoped that he would build confidence coming off the 9ers game. I think he will continue to gain experience and confidence...but he needs to trust his WR's and I don't think he can get to that point anytime soon. I would look for Moeaki to have more and more catches as the season wears on.

[Valiant]

I thought the idea was to generate conversation.

You thought enough to drop in. Mission accomplished.

You do not generate conversation.. I would like to think you are just a dupe account, but the more you post it seems you try and just think up the most idiotic topics and pass off as Sensible..

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Franchise QBs don't fall apart when they run into bad coaches.

Hey man, that's why the 49ers stomped our ass so bad when they cam into Arrowhead in 1994. Seifert had been Montana's coach, so that's why their D harried Joe into throwing 6 picks, including two TAINTS.

I mean, since the verbiage of the offenses was identical, down to the audibles, it's obviously excusable. I mean, it's not like Montana could be expected to go 19-31 for 203 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 INT

[DeezNutz]

It was the gameplan. Dink and dunk.

Why? But our QB is definitely not holding them back.

Ready: offensive line, WRs, Obama, etc.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

No, dumbass, I menetioned 10 in a row because I did hear that, and I did forget about the screen pass in the middle of that stretch even though it was pointed out almost immediatley in the chat while we were watching.

But the point of the post still stands.

Got it.... Cassel sucks because he had six straight incompletions when two of them should have been caught...one ofr a TD.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Why? But our QB is definitely not holding them back.

Listen to Haley. It was because they were scared of Mathis and Freeney. The offensive line is holding them back. The offensive line is better equipped for run blocking than pass blocking.

I am not saying that Cassel is a gunslinger, but when they are comfortable about protection, they will take a few shots downfield.

[milkman]

Got it.... Cassel sucks because he had six straight incompletions when two of them should have been caught...one ofr a TD.

You missed the entire point dumbass.

He has to be able to overcome mistakes.

He has done nothing to lead anyone to believe has that ability.

[DeezNutz]

Listen to Haley. It was because they were scared of Mathis and Freeney. The offensive line is holding them back. The offensive line is better equipped for run blocking than pass blocking.

I am not saying that Cassel is a gunslinger, but when they are comfortable about protection, they will take a few shots downfield.

Why? But our QB is definitely not holding them back.

Ready: offensive line, WRs, Obama, etc.

Oops. You were in before the edit.

This offensive line is not holding Cassel back. He's consistently had plenty of time in the pocket for limited success at best. Luckily, we can blame those times on the WRs.

[BigMeatballDave]

It was the gameplan. Dink and dunk. Even still, Cassel hit some very nice passes. And, he had found a rhythym.

The Chiefs had just converted 3rd down when Albert got a ticky tack holding call.

The Chiefs were moving the ball when Charles fumbled on the first drive and had to get the ball back.

The Chiefs were moving the ball when Charles fumbled and lost possession.

The Chiefs would have actually had a lead when Bowe drops a perfect pass.

And, yet, the lack of offense was Cassel's fault.

Oh, and you mentioned you hoped that he would build confidence coming off the 9ers game. I think he will continue to gain experience and confidence...but he needs to trust his WR's and I don't think he can get to that point anytime soon. I would look for Moeaki to have more and more catches as the season wears on.:facepalm:

[cdcox]

but he needs to trust his WR's and I don't think he can get to that point anytime soon.

This is killing his effectiveness.

How many times have we seen him make his drop, hit his back foot, start his throwing motion, and then pull it back down. That ball needs to come out. If the guy isn't open, don't start the throwing motion to begin with. Something is flat wrong. Either he isn't making his reads correctly, or doesn't trust his receivers to make a play, or doesn't trust his arm. But effective QBs don't very often pull the ball down after they start their throwing motion. Cassel does this all the time and that is on him.

[patteeu]

Please. link us to one of those several occassions, cause all I've ever seen is "I graded out perfect" in a game he threw four interceptions, and "I played as well as I could" in this game.

Oh.....wait, I believe him on that second one there, so I'll give him a pass on that one.

Ok, here's one (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-1/QA-with-MATT-CASSEL---1112/48A930DD-33BC-4948-AF23-44366DD6FE3F):

Obviously I threw two interceptions and if we can eliminate those, create drives and put ourselves in a better situation at the end of the game, then we’ll be in position to win.”

He doesn't make any excuses. He says he did it. He says they need to be eliminated. Accountability.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Go hump a cactus. If you cant see why Matt Cassel is a problem, you should stop watching football.

If a problem is not being a top QB in the league... yeah, it's a problem.

But, then the Chiefs have problems at nearly every offensive position other than running back.

Look, I am not dismissing what Cassel is. He is an average starter. But, the fact that he gets crapped on for the loss in Indy is pretty ridiculous.

Charles lost a fumble. Charles fumbled prior to that causing him to not get the first down. Bowe drops an easy TD pass. Succop has the worst on sides kick I have ever seen.... and Cassel gets all the blame.

Hmmm.

Agenda anyone?

It was a team loss.

Could a franchise QB overcome those things?

Yes.

Would I like to have a franchise QB? Yes.

Will Cassel be that guy? I doubt it, but who knows.

[DeezNutz]

Pretty quick gloss there, man. Lots of "we" and leads with a self-serving statement: "We took what was there in the passing game."

Leadership, the Herm model.

[RustShack]

Start Croyle.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

This is killing his effectiveness.

How many times have we seen him make his drop, hit his back foot, start his throwing motion, and then pull it back down. That ball needs to come out. If the guy isn't open, don't start the throwing motion to begin with. Something is flat wrong. Either he isn't making his reads correctly, or doesn't trust his receivers to make a play, or doesn't trust his arm. But effective QBs don't very often pull the ball down after they start their throwing motion. Cassel does this all the time and that is on him.

Two things.
#1) Some of those times I think Cassel is trying to get the defender to jump a different route. I know that this doesn't jive with some of the guys that say that he always stares down his WR's.

#2) It is clear that Haley doesn't feel that this team can overcome turnovers. He is coached that protecting the ball is the most important thing. I think he has been coached into a shell a little.

He has done a good job avoiding int's and avoiding sacks. And, that is what Haley wants....avoid negative plays.

I also think that this will start to change as the season goes along.

[patteeu]

I think pat is allowing comments like "we need to execute better" as a sign of personal accountability. This might be one thing, if it weren't juxtaposed with the "I executed pretty well" talk.

Yes, he talks in terms of the offense as a group more than he talks about "I". I think that's a product of the coaching emphasis on team. I can't remember ever hearing him throw a teammate under the bus though.

In an interview after the San Diego game this year, he talked about how the offense didn't play very well and how "we" need to do a better job so that someday when the defense has a bad day the offense can reciprocate by carrying them. That's not strictly a self indictment, but at the very least he accepts a share of the blame. In a game in which they won, I don't see any value in him doing much more than that.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

You do not generate conversation.. I would like to think you are just a dupe account, but the more you post it seems you try and just think up the most idiotic topics and pass off as Sensible..

And, yet you are here.... conversing...hmmm.

[DeezNutz]

Yes, he talks in terms of the offense as a group more than he talks about "I". I think that's a product of the coaching emphasis on team. I can't remember ever hearing him throw a teammate under the bus though.

In an interview after the San Diego game this year, he talked about how the offense didn't play very well and how "we" need to do a better job so that someday when the defense has a bad day the offense can reciprocate by carrying them. That's not strictly a self indictment, but at the very least he accepts a share of the blame. In a game in which they won, I don't see any value in him doing much more than that.

These are the comments, though, that trump the "we" stuff: "But I think I did pretty well. I played the game plan very well. I'd have to say that I did about as well as I could out there. That's all you can ask." (Cassel on 810 talking about the loss, the fucking loss mind you, at IND)

Yes, this has been posted before, but it's necessary for this exchange.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Franchise QBs don't fall apart when they run into bad coaches.

BS. Franchise qb's run the offense the way the coach calls it.

We will dissagree on this one.

BTW: I am not even sold that Gannon was a franchise QB... but for all the love he gets around here... I was surprised that it was even debated. I guess whatever side is best for the argument at hand.

[BigMeatballDave]

Ok, here's one (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-1/QA-with-MATT-CASSEL---1112/48A930DD-33BC-4948-AF23-44366DD6FE3F):



He doesn't make any excuses. He says he did it. He says they need to be eliminated. Accountability.Awesome. That was 11 months ago.

[patteeu]

You do not generate conversation.. I would like to think you are just a dupe account, but the more you post it seems you try and just think up the most idiotic topics and pass off as Sensible..

Do you seriously think the board needs to march in lockstep on this Cassel thing? This thread was thought provoking even if there are many who refused to be provoked in that way because they've closed their minds to the subject.

[DeezNutz]

#2) It is clear that Haley doesn't feel that this team can overcome turnovers. He is coached that protecting the ball is the most important thing. I think he has been coached into a shell a little.


I remember when another well-loved coach used to talk about the need "to play a certain way," with the uber-talented Huard at the helm.

Wonder why we're again so worried about not being able to overcome mistakes?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

These are the comments, though, that trump the "we" stuff: "But I think I did pretty well. I played the game plan very well. I'd have to say that I did about as well as I could out there. That's all you can ask." (Cassel on 810 talking about the loss, the ****ing loss mind you, at IND)

Yes, this has been posted before, but it's necessary for this exchange.

To me, this is just more evidence that the Chiefs were led to believe that they had very little chance of winning this game.

If you look at every post game quote, they all say we played well and were happy to be in it towards the end.

They clearly were expecting to play worse.

I like Haley and everyone makes mistakes... but to me, the biggest one this year is respecting the Colts too much and not respecting your own team enough. It was a very Herm Edwards like game plan.

[BigMeatballDave]

If a problem is not being a top QB in the league... yeah, it's a problem.

But, then the Chiefs have problems at nearly every offensive position other than running back.

Look, I am not dismissing what Cassel is. He is an average starter. But, the fact that he gets crapped on for the loss in Indy is pretty ridiculous.

Charles lost a fumble. Charles fumbled prior to that causing him to not get the first down. Bowe drops an easy TD pass. Succop has the worst on sides kick I have ever seen.... and Cassel gets all the blame.

Hmmm.

Agenda anyone?

It was a team loss.

Could a franchise QB overcome those things?

Yes.

Would I like to have a franchise QB? Yes.

Will Cassel be that guy? I doubt it, but who knows.That 4th and 2 play should tell anyone everything they need to know about Cassel.

[DeezNutz]

BS. Franchise qb's run the offense the way the coach calls it.

We will dissagree on this one.

BTW: I am not even sold that Gannon was a franchise QB... but for all the love he gets around here... I was surprised that it was even debated. I guess whatever side is best for the argument at hand.

Bullshit. Coaches allow franchise QBs to go win the game. Even Herm's scared ass said about Manning in an interview, "If you have a guy like that, you can hand him the ball and tell him to go win it." Paraphrasing, obviously.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I remember when another well-loved coach used to talk about the need "to play a certain way," with the uber-talented Huard at the helm.

Wonder why we're again so worried about not being able to overcome mistakes?

Lack of offensive talent.... not just Huard.

Same as with this team. The offensive line is a good run blocking unit...but won't hold up for a bunch of seven step drops.

[patteeu]

Awesome. That was 11 months ago.

"Never taking accountability" presumably includes 11 months ago.

I didn't want to spend all night reading old Cassel interviews so I used my head instead and figured that it would be easier to find an example of Cassel being self critical when the team was losing than it would be to find it when they're winning.

[DeezNutz]

I like Haley and everyone makes mistakes... but to me, the biggest one this year is respecting the Colts too much and not respecting your own team enough. It was a very Herm Edwards like game plan.

I've said much the same thing, but in the same breath, expecting to hold the Colts almost exclusively to FGs defies common sense, even if you truly believe in your D.

This is the case where hindsight is definitely clouding some of our comments.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Bullshit. Coaches allow franchise QBs to go win the game. Even Herm's scared ass said about Manning in an interview, "If you have a guy like that, you can hand him the ball and tell him to go win it." Paraphrasing, obviously.

They still run the offense that the coaches create.

In Gannon's case, the offense that Gruden created...

Oh, and of course, Gruden was on the other sideline.

But, surely, the deck wasn't stacked against Gannon...because he had Bill Callahan.

[DeezNutz]

They still run the offense that the coaches create.

In Gannon's case, the offense that Gruden created...

Oh, and of course, Gruden was on the other sideline.

But, surely, the deck wasn't stacked against Gannon...because he had Bill Callahan.

I could care less what Gannon did, since he should never be in the discussion of franchise QBs. Even before Brady truly emerged, there was a great story from the first SB game when he was told to be careful with the ball.

Bledsoe's reaction on the sideline, "**** that shit, Tommy. Sling it."

Very cool line.

And we all know that Manning runs his own show.

[LaChapelle]

Instead of Red Ass Rich
it's Mauve Taint Matt

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I've said much the same thing, but in the same breath, expecting to hold the Colts almost exclusively to FGs defies common sense, even if you truly believe in your D.

This is the case where hindsight is definitely clouding some of our comments.

No....when they did the onsides kick, I was pissed. When they went for it on fourth down... I was pissed.

I expected the Chiefs to play with the Colts. I didn't expect them to run the ball as much as they did. I expect a few more picks off of Manning. I also expect the Kick Returns to be better.

[cdcox]

Two things.
#1) Some of those times I think Cassel is trying to get the defender to jump a different route. I know that this doesn't jive with some of the guys that say that he always stares down his WR's.

#2) It is clear that Haley doesn't feel that this team can overcome turnovers. He is coached that protecting the ball is the most important thing. I think he has been coached into a shell a little.

He has done a good job avoiding int's and avoiding sacks. And, that is what Haley wants....avoid negative plays.

I also think that this will start to change as the season goes along.

#1 I know what a pump fake is. This isn't a pump fake, it is a look of uncertainty. And it is entirely consistent with a QB that is locked on to one receiver and not doing his reads. He could be rebooting his throwing motion when the one guy he has been staring down either isn't open or the secondary has read the QB and is closing down on that receiver. Good QBs just don't reboot their throwing motion very often.

#2 Often times when he does this, he gets sacked. So this doesn't avoid sacks. Nearly every time he reboots his throwing motion, he is holding the ball too long.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

That 4th and 2 play should tell anyone everything they need to know about Cassel.

Wow. I guess the fourth down play for Rivers against the Chiefs should tell everyone everything they need to know about Rivers.

[DeezNutz]

No....when they did the onsides kick, I was pissed. When they went for it on fourth down... I was pissed.

I expected the Chiefs to play with the Colts. I didn't expect them to run the ball as much as they did. I expect a few more picks off of Manning. I also expect the Kick Returns to be better.

Be pissed about the onside kick. Fine. Being pissed about the 4th-down decision is stupid because, as cdcox pointed out, it was the statistically right thing to do.

Instead, be pissed that our mediocre QB was the one asked to make the play.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

#1 I know what a pump fake is. This isn't a pump fake, it is a look of uncertainty. And it is entirely consistent with a QB that is locked on to one receiver and not doing his reads. He could be rebooting his throwing motion when the one guy he has been staring down either isn't open or the secondary has read the QB and is closing down on that receiver. Good QBs just don't reboot their throwing motion very often.

#2 Often times when he does this, he gets sacked. So this doesn't avoid sacks. Nearly every time he reboots his throwing motion, he is holding the ball too long.

Well then he isn't doing it that much this year, because he isn't taking a lot of sacks.

BTW: This is the kind of talk that is fun.

I love to dissect the play of each position and discuss it fully. I don't think that Cassel is faultless. I think he has a ton to work on. I would rather talk about that objectively than just have a blanket 'he sucks' contest.

[BigMeatballDave]

Wow. I guess the fourth down play for Rivers against the Chiefs should tell everyone everything they need to know about Rivers.JFC I'm done. You simply dont get it.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

As much fun as this is.... I need some sleep.

G'night.

[cdcox]

Wow. I guess the fourth down play for Rivers against the Chiefs should tell everyone everything they need to know about Rivers.

Because Rivers immediately threw the ball to Antonio Gates, who was blanketed by 4 Chiefs, and missed two other receivers that were open.

[patteeu]

These are the comments, though, that trump the "we" stuff: "But I think I did pretty well. I played the game plan very well. I'd have to say that I did about as well as I could out there. That's all you can ask." (Cassel on 810 talking about the loss, the ****ing loss mind you, at IND)

Yes, this has been posted before, but it's necessary for this exchange.

I think he did pretty well in the Indy game too. Not necessarily great, but considerably better than he did in the first two games of the year. I guess he could have said that he made the wrong throw in the early 4th down attempt, but aside from that he didn't have any terrible mistakes to take responsibility for. As I said before, he wasn't one of the main reasons the Chiefs lost that game.

But I can accept that some of the things he says might be a little too pollyannish. My complaint was with the absolute statement that he NEVER takes accountability.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

JFC I'm done. You simply dont get it.

Sorry to throw your logic back in your face so quickly.

Amazing how defenses can confuse even franchise QB's.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I think he did pretty well in the Indy game too. Not necessarily great, but considerably better than he did in the first two games of the year. I guess he could have said that he made the wrong throw in the early 4th down attempt, but aside from that he didn't have any terrible mistakes to take responsibility for. As I said before, he wasn't one of the main reasons the Chiefs lost that game.

He did have the football follies fumble... that was disconcerting.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Be pissed about the onside kick. Fine. Being pissed about the 4th-down decision is stupid because, as cdcox pointed out, it was the statistically right thing to do.

Instead, be pissed that our mediocre QB was the one asked to make the play.

Sorry, not against the Colts it isn't. You don't take points off the board. You take the ball and you run it down their throat and Cassel connects on a couple of passes.

It is 4th and 2. Not 4th and a foot... not 4th and 1. Fourth and 2.

You give the Colts the opportunity to gain back all the momentum.

On 4th and two, a running play isn't even the best bet statistically. So, you have to put the ball in Cassel's hands.

Just dumb. Freaking dumb and a chicken bleep move.

[BigMeatballDave]

:spock:Sorry to throw your logic back in your face so quickly.

Amazing how defenses can confuse even franchise QB's.Do you even know the play in question or the problem with that play, other than the fact that he threw into quadruple coverage?

[cdcox]

Sorry, not against the Colts it isn't. You don't take points off the board. You take the ball and you run it down their throat and Cassel connects on a couple of passes.

It is 4th and 2. Not 4th and a foot... not 4th and 1. Fourth and 2.

You give the Colts the opportunity to gain back all the momentum.

On 4th and two, a running play isn't even the best bet statistically. So, you have to put the ball in Cassel's hands.

Just dumb. Freaking dumb and a chicken bleep move.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/10/todd-haley-advanced-nfl-stats-coach-of.html

[patteeu]

He did have the football follies fumble... that was disconcerting.

True. I forgot that one.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/10/todd-haley-advanced-nfl-stats-coach-of.html

Yeah, I saw it.

Still a dumb, dumb move. In a vacuum, this isn't a bad play call.

Given that the Chiefs had just tried the worst on sides kick in the history of the game. Given that they had held the Colts to three points.... and had driven down the field.... it was dumb to give Indy the chance to get the momentum back.

[the Talking Can]

I keep reading how Cassel is 28 and he is in his sixth season and if he hasn't gotten it by now, he never will. Perhaps we should look at someone who had very similar numbers through his first six seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted in 1987 by the Pats to be a defensive back. When he bristled at the idea, he was traded to Minnesota. In 1990, Gannon started 12 games. The Vikings had a 11-5 record, and the coaches went with Sean Salisbury. He played a lot over the years 1990-1992. He played in at least 12 games in each of those years, and never had more than 2278 yards. his passer rating was never more than 81.5. in 1990, he had 16 td's and 16 Int's. In 1991, he had 12 td's and 6 int's. in 1992, he had 12 Td's and 13 Int's. 1992 was his sixth season.

In 1993, he was picked up by the Redskins. He had three td's and seven interceptions. He played in only seven games. This was his seventh season.

His eighth season didn't come until 1995 because he was out of football in 1994. He had rotator cuff surgery in 1993, but no one was knocking down his door to get him under contract.

In 1995, Gannon worked out for the Chiefs and signed with the team as the BACKUP to Bono. He was a team player. A guy that would be the backup and not complain. A hard worker. The kind of player that coaches like.

He saw action in four games in 1996. He finally started to 'get it'. This was his 9th season. But, the Chiefs didn't have any faith in him and still went out and got Grbac. I believe Gannon signed a two year extension in 1996 because no one wanted him to be a starter.

Over the course of 1997 and 1998, he started a total of 16 games and played in a total of 21. His passer rating was about 80 over those two years. He threw for 3349 yards in those two seasons combined.

This was years 10 and 11.

The Raiders rewarded Gannon's mediocre numbers over his 11 seasons in the league with an opportunity to win the starting job.

We all know how it turned out.

This is a folk hero around these parts.... and yet, through his first 10 seasons, he was not an extremely accurate passer. He didn't throw downfield very well. He struggled to read defenses. And he was athletic.

Oh, AND he took a ton of sacks. He was sacked 302 times in 4206 pass attempts.

Heck, he wasn't even drafted to be a QB.


Through his first six seasons, Gannon had thrown 1003 passes. He had completed 561 passes. He completed 55.9% of his passes. He had 40 TD's and 36 Int's. He averaged 6.4 yards per attempt. He averaged 11.5 yards per completion. He had 81 sacks, or at about 8 percent of his pass attempts.

Through Cassel's first six seasons, he has thrown 1154 passes. He has completed 678 of them. He is completing 58.7% of his passes. He has 43 TD's. He has 32 Int's. He has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt. He has averaged 11.09 yards per completion. He has 96 sacks, which is about 8% of his pass attempts.

Will Cassel be Gannon? Probably not. But, Gannon wasn't Gannon until his 12th season in the league.... or twice as long as Cassel has been in the league...... That is when Gannon really got it and became a pro bowl QB.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu124/rob1118/Tongue_mousetrap_slowmo.gif

[keg in kc]

Yeah, ah, I'm not sure modeling ourselves after the Raiders is an approach I'd want to take.

[Pioli Zombie]

I have less than week of sobriety from my Cassel addiction. Seeing a thread title like this is like an alkie seeing a Beer billboard. Then I can hear my Cassaholics Anonymous sponsors words to me. "Its a disease. Cunning and baffling. It will try to trip you up any way it can. But just don't read that first post. Cassel is a bottomless pit leading to destruction and ruined lives."

[Pioli Zombie]

Just say No to Drugs and Cassahol.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Yeah, ah, I'm not sure modeling ourselves after the Raiders is an approach I'd want to take.

The Raiders, under Gruden were a great team. They imploded in the Super Bowl.... (which was nice to see)... but had Gruden still been the head coach, they probably win a title.

Luckily, Al Davis tried to screw him on his contract and he went to the Bucs.

[patteeu]

Yeah, ah, I'm not sure modeling ourselves after the Raiders is an approach I'd want to take.

True, and it's also true that Gannon wasn't the kind of franchise QB that Peyton Manning is, but would we be satisfied if the next long-term Chiefs QB averaged 63% completion rate, 3947 yards, 26 TDs and 11 INTs over a 4 year stretch and took the Chiefs to the Superbowl? That sounds pretty good to me.

[cdcox]

True, and it's also true that Gannon wasn't the kind of franchise QB that Peyton Manning is, but would we be satisfied if the next long-term Chiefs QB averaged 63% completion rate, 3947 yards, 26 TDs and 11 INTs over a 4 year stretch and took the Chiefs to the Superbowl? That sounds pretty good to me.

Who are the two HOF WRs that will allow our turd to put up the kind of numbers that the Raider's turd put up?

[Extra Point]

Wasn't Gannon working with Cassel a bit during this spring or summer?

[keg in kc]

True, and it's also true that Gannon wasn't the kind of franchise QB that Peyton Manning is, but would we be satisfied if the next long-term Chiefs QB averaged 63% completion rate, 3947 yards, 26 TDs and 11 INTs over a 4 year stretch and took the Chiefs to the Superbowl? That sounds pretty good to me.Trying to be "good enough" isn't good enough. I've seen all the Martyocrity I ever want to see. I don't want Trent Dilfer. I want Tom Brady. I want to have a dynasty, not a fluke championship game.

[Bwana]

You are to Cassel, what KCBRONCOHATER is to Larry Johnson.

[Bane]

Wasn't Gannon working with Cassel a bit during this spring or summer?

Yeah but Cassel is so much more talented than Gannon,he couldn't possibly offer him any help /Cassel ballwashers.

[patteeu]

Who are the two HOF WRs that will allow our turd to put up the kind of numbers that the Raider's turd put up?

You seem to be suggesting that Cassel's poor performance to date isn't really his fault but instead the fault of his supporting cast. But whatever you're suggesting, you didn't answer the question.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Trying to be "good enough" isn't good enough. I've seen all the Martyocrity I ever want to see. I don't want Trent Dilfer. I want Tom Brady. I want to have a dynasty, not a fluke championship game.

Okay, let's chill just a little on the insanity.

Gannon went to four straight pro bowls. He had two straight pro bowl MVP's. He won the NFL MVP award for 2002.

He wasn't mediocre.

Now, he may not be Manning.... but he was easily a top five QB in those four years.

I am not saying Cassel will get there, but I would certainly be ecstatic if he does.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Who are the two HOF WRs that will allow our turd to put up the kind of numbers that the Raider's turd put up?

Wow, now Gannon's a turd.

Oh, how the winds blow wildly in this place.

Prior to this thread, Grbac starting over Gannon was THE reason the Chiefs didn't go to the Super Bowl in 1997.

Now, he is a turd.

Sorry, Mr. Gannon. I didn't mean to tarnish your legacy.

You do make a good point about the surrounding talent.... but an NFL MVP probably shouldn't be classified as a turd.

JMO.

[patteeu]

Trying to be "good enough" isn't good enough. I've seen all the Martyocrity I ever want to see. I don't want Trent Dilfer. I want Tom Brady. I want to have a dynasty, not a fluke championship game.

I hear you. I want my small cap tech investment to turn into the next Apple or Microsoft. However, if at the end of the day it just gives me a healthy return that substantially beats inflation, I'll consider it a successful investment.

While we search for our dynasty-producing franchise QB, we are going to need someone to play the position. I'd rather have someone who puts up Gannon-like numbers than someone who stinks it up year after year so we can get better draft position to take the next Peyton Manning/David Carr/Alex Smith/John Elway/Matt Stafford.

[patteeu]

Yeah but Cassel is so much more talented than Gannon,he couldn't possibly offer him any help /Cassel ballwashers.

Are there really any Cassel ballwashers here? Or is this just another example of the hysteria that develops when a ChiefsPlanet meme (i.e. Cassel is an irredeemable failure despite the fact that the Chiefs front office continues to invest in him) takes hold and gets a head of steam?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

:spock:Do you even know the play in question or the problem with that play, other than the fact that he threw into quadruple coverage?

Just for fun, I went and watched the first drive again.

Cassel threw two completions in the first three plays and threw for the first 1st down of the game.

Cassel then basically threw the ball away two other times.

On the pass to Charles, JC let the linebacker under cut him so Cassel threw it wide hoping that JC might be able to make a play on the ball, but making sure the LB couldn't make a play on the ball.

On the pass to Copper, Cassel tried to look off Powers, but Powers never bit, so he threw it to where the only play to be made on the ball was Copper.

Okay, now, on the final play of the drive. All the people who say Moeaki was going to come open are wrong. Moeaki only came open after the defender came off of him when the ball was in the air.

It wasn't triple coverage. It was actually zone coverage, and the Colt defender got a finger tip on the ball, or otherwise, it is a completion.

Now, Castille was open. That was the only other place he could go with the ball. McCluster was covered. Moeaki was covered. Bowe was covered, but had a linebacker on him. The two other players broke on the ball. One linebacker broke to Bowe's side when he saw Cassel look that way. The corner broke when the ball was in the air.

Here is the thing. You get coached all week to expect certain things in certain defenses. Defenses have tendencies. Matt Cassel knew where he was going the minute the ball was snapped based on the way they lined up.

It was zone coverage. Bowe was running underneath and would have to contend with the linebacker, I believe it was Brackett.

He had beaten Brackett to the inside and had inside position.

Frankly, had he thrown the ball up high, Bowe has a play on it or get's a PI call. He didn't. It looks bad because it looks like he could have dumped it off to Castille and gotten the first down.

What we don't know is what Haley and Weis are telling him leading up to the play. There is no question that he isn't Manning. He doesn't get or deserve that kind of freedom. If the coaches are barking at him to throw to Bowe if a defense lines up a certain way.... then that's what he will do.

Yeah, it wasn't his best play. Even at the time, I wasn't happy with it because I saw an open Castille.

I just think the Chiefs were dumb not to kick a field goal there.

It was just as dumb not to use some sort of misdirection or run fake to get the Colts out of position. They had gotten the Colts with the soft edge to the left side on the whole drive, you don't think the Colts would have over pursued if they do a fake toss sweep? Or, even PAP and have Cassel bootleg to the right. Give him a run/pass option.

I hate the play call more than I hate Cassel's execution of it.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Are there really any Cassel ballwashers here? Or is this just another example of the hysteria that develops when a ChiefsPlanet meme (i.e. Cassel is an irredeemable failure despite the fact that the Chiefs front office continues to invest in him) takes hold and gets a head of steam?

You don't know? The Front office KNOWS that he is a failure, they just don't want to admit they are wrong.

They are bound and determined to keep playing him despite two better QB's on the roster. I really wish you would pay attention.

[Lex Luthor]

On the other hand, you could cite Gannon as an example of a situation where a team had an excellent quarterback on the roster, but they didn't play him because they signed their starting quarterback to a big contract. Defenders of Grbac often said "the backup quarterback is always the most popular guy in town", and "he's the backup quarterback for a reason".

Thanks for bringing up Gannon. All the more reason to bench Cassel and stick Brodie Croyle in there!

[Sully]

Good argument... if you're a 4th grader.

I know, I know, you're not really being serious. Just looking for a few high fives. I get it.

It certainly doesn't live up to the academic standards of "This one time a shitty quarterback became above average, therefore this shitty quarterback might do that, too!" without any evidence of similarities.

[Chiefnj2]

It's pretty simple, Cassel has 12 more games, most of which is against poor competition, to prove he can be a franchise QB. Unless he improves a lot, he'll be gone.

[Sully]

Wow. I guess the fourth down play for Rivers against the Chiefs should tell everyone everything they need to know about Rivers.

Except Rivers looked at three or more options, and finally had to throw at the "least bad" option.
Cassell locked onto one guy, didn't look anywhere else, missed three wide open options, and threw into triple coverage.

Otherwise it's the exact same situation.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

On the other hand, you could cite Gannon as an example of a situation where a team had an excellent quarterback on the roster, but they didn't play him because they signed their starting quarterback to a big contract. Defenders of Grbac often said "the backup quarterback is always the most popular guy in town", and "he's the backup quarterback for a reason".

Thanks for bringing up Gannon. All the more reason to bench Cassel and stick Brodie Croyle in there!

I am not going to bash Croyle. I really like Croyle. I wanted Croyle to get his chance before they traded for Cassel. Heck, if Croyle were more durable, or if the offensive line were a little better.... he would be the starter right now, and Herm Edwards would probably still be the coach.

The problem is that he isn't more durable. This is Cassel's team at this point. Guy's didn't like Grbac. I think the players, and the coaches especially, like Cassel.

Heck, look at the quotes from former team members.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

It certainly doesn't live up to the academic standards of "This one time a shitty quarterback became above average, therefore this shitty quarterback might do that, too!" without any evidence of similarities.

Actually, there are many similarities. Look at the stats through the first six years.

And, if you watched Gannon at all in Minnesota in his early years, he would remind you a good bit of Cassel.

Though Gannon was more of a runner than Cassel is. I wish the Chiefs would use Cassel's athleticism more.

[Bane]

I am not going to bash Croyle. I really like Croyle. I wanted Croyle to get his chance before they traded for Cassel. Heck, if Croyle were more durable, or if the offensive line were a little better.... he would be the starter right now, and Herm Edwards would probably still be the coach.

The problem is that he isn't more durable. This is Cassel's team at this point. Guy's didn't like Grbac. I think the players, and the coaches especially, like Cassel.

Heck, look at the quotes from former team members.

Rodney Harrison said on national TV that Matt Cassel was a career back up QB.He played,trained,practiced,and basically lived with Cassel.I think he knows more about him than his ballwashers.While I don't contend that he knows everything,I do believe he was being honest with his opinion.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

It's pretty simple, Cassel has 12 more games, most of which is against poor competition, to prove he can be a franchise QB. Unless he improves a lot, he'll be gone.

Well, I would expect that he will improve.

I think he has the best game so far this season this week.

I think he will be here next year regardless..... if there is a football season next year.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Rodney Harrison said on national TV that Matt Cassel was a career back up QB.He played,trained,practiced,and basically lived with Cassel.I think he knows more about him than his ballwashers.While I don't contend that he knows everything,I do believe he was being honest with his opinion.

I was talking more about the recent quotes from Brady and Welker talking about Cassel. Clearly, they liked the guy. It was more about the fact that Grbac was not esteemed in the locker room the way Cassel is.

Now, more specific to your point. When was this quote? Was it this year, or last year? I have looked for it on google. I can't find it. If you have a link I would love to see it.

[Sully]

Actually, there are many similarities. Look at the stats through the first six years.

And, if you watched Gannon at all in Minnesota in his early years, he would remind you a good bit of Cassel.

Though Gannon was more of a runner than Cassel is. I wish the Chiefs would use Cassel's athleticism more.

Other than blindly looking at stats, which tell about 1/4 of the story, how were they similar?
Stats just don't do it. You could look at 100 failed NFL QBs, and their stats will be nearly identical.

[L.A. Chieffan]

I was talking more about the recent quotes from Brady and Welker talking about Cassel. Clearly, they liked the guy. It was more about the fact that Grbac was not esteemed in the locker room the way Cassel is.

Now, more specific to your point. When was this quote? Was it this year, or last year? I have looked for it on google. I can't find it. If you have a link I would love to see it.

Not that it matters but:

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[patteeu]

It certainly doesn't live up to the academic standards of "This one time a shitty quarterback became above average, therefore this shitty quarterback might do that, too!" without any evidence of similarities.

You're right, it doesn't even live up to that because your "argument" (and I use the term loosely) was premised on a fairy tale. No one ever argued that any lame QB no matter how dissimilar to Rich Gannon will eventually come around because they're "due".

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Other than blindly looking at stats, which tell about 1/4 of the story, how were they similar?
Stats just don't do it. You could look at 100 failed NFL QBs, and their stats will be nearly identical.

If you watched him in Minnesota, you saw him struggle with the same things that Cassel does.

Heck, he was even worse about staring down WR's.

And, for those who want to point to the fact that Cassel didn't start in college.... he went to USC and played behind two Heisman QB's. He would have started at Delaware.... or nearly any other school in the country.

[Sully]

Cassell has a weak arm. Look at how much bodily effort he has to put into throwing a simple 8-yard hitch or out.
He's obviously a poor decision maker, and doesn't trust himself, as he either won't throw unless a guy is wide open or unless he is given no options by the coaches who don't trust his decisions.
He's slow to throw, always throwing the ball just after the right time that gives his receivers room to run/doesn't get them killed.
His accuracy is crap. He rarely hits receivers right. They have to reach.
I don't buy the "leadership" angle for a second. His demeanor on the field betrays what players say about that.

[Bane]

I was talking more about the recent quotes from Brady and Welker talking about Cassel. Clearly, they liked the guy. It was more about the fact that Grbac was not esteemed in the locker room the way Cassel is.

Now, more specific to your point. When was this quote? Was it this year, or last year? I have looked for it on google. I can't find it. If you have a link I would love to see it.

1.Yeah like they'd throw him under the bus.:rolleyes:
2.It was on a pregame show last year around mid season I believe.No I don't have a link as I watched it happen on TV.

[patteeu]

Rodney Harrison said on national TV that Matt Cassel was a career back up QB.He played,trained,practiced,and basically lived with Cassel.I think he knows more about him than his ballwashers.While I don't contend that he knows everything,I do believe he was being honest with his opinion.

Todd Haley, who knows even more about Cassel than Rodney Harrison says that Cassel's arrow is pointing up. So what?

[Brock]

Todd Haley, who knows even more about Cassel than Rodney Harrison says that Cassel's arrow is pointing up. So what?

Which of those would you say is more likely to be obfuscating?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Not that it matters but:

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I hope that isn't it. All he says is that when he looks at the Chiefs, they need more consistent play from the QB position.

Clearly, he doesn't believe in Cassel. You can tell that from his body language. And, when the cohost mentions Tom Brady's numbers in his first year starting under Weis, and how Cassel could be getting on the same page.... he is reluctant to agree.

I was just looking for the part where he says that Cassel is a career backup. I didn't see that.

[Sully]

Which of those would you say is more likely to be obfuscating?
HIGH FIVE!!!

[Bane]

Todd Haley, who knows even more about Cassel than Rodney Harrison says that Cassel's arrow is pointing up. So what?

ROFL:doh!:

[patteeu]

Which of those would you say is more likely to be obfuscating?

I don't think either of them mean very much.

To answer your question, I think Rodney Harrison is more likely to be saying exactly what he thinks but Todd Haley is more likely to know what he's talking about. Which brings me back to my question, so what?

[Sully]

If you watched him in Minnesota, you saw him struggle with the same things that Cassel does.

Heck, he was even worse about staring down WR's.

And, for those who want to point to the fact that Cassel didn't start in college.... he went to USC and played behind two Heisman QB's. He would have started at Delaware.... or nearly any other school in the country.

I dontrecall much about his time in Minnesota, other than thinking, "Thise guys need a quarterback!" maybe you can provide evidence that they were similar other than stats.
As to where Cassell could've started in college, that has no bearing on the conversation.
Maybe if Cassell had started in college, he'd have better abilities. But I don't care. As a Chiefs fan, where he is right now isn't good enough. Where he is (or even might be) going isn't good enough, either.
I don't want to be the Ravens or the Bucs.
I want to be the 00s Pats or Steelers, the 90s Cowboys, or the 80s 49ers.
You should want the same.

[Brock]

I don't think either of them mean very much.

To answer your question, I think Rodney Harrison is more likely to be saying exactly what he thinks but Todd Haley is more likely to know what he's talking about.

How likely is it that Todd Haley is going to say what he's thinking?

[patteeu]

ROFL:doh!:

Good answer. I can see you put a lot of thought into it. :thumb:

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Cassell has a weak arm. Look at how much bodily effort he has to put into throwing a simple 8-yard hitch or out.
He's obviously a poor decision maker, and doesn't trust himself, as he either won't throw unless a guy is wide open or unless he is given no options by the coaches who don't trust his decisions.
He's slow to throw, always throwing the ball just after the right time that gives his receivers room to run/doesn't get them killed.
His accuracy is crap. He rarely hits receivers right. They have to reach.
I don't buy the "leadership" angle for a second. His demeanor on the field betrays what players say about that.

First, Cassel doesn't have any weaker arm than Sanchez. It is an average NFL arm. Arm strength isn't a problem.

Second, the coaches are very emphatic about protecting the ball. I imagine they are more concerned with that than anything else because they know they have a good defense and a good running game.

Third, boy, if they don't trust his decision making... then it would be very odd to put the ball in his hands on 4th and 2.

Fourth, slow to throw? At times? Always? Nope... another exageration....which is needed to justify your position, I suppose. He has done a good job of hitting guys in stride on many occaisions.

Accuracy is crap? Well, if you watch the game of football at all, the WR's often have to reach for the ball. The receivers and him also need to get on the same page.

Look at the first two incompletions on the first drive of last weeks game. On the first one, JC let the linebacker get underneath. Now, Cassel might have just been throwing the ball away, but he certainly made sure that the only guy that would get it was Charles.... and had Charles given himself more space, it could have been a completion.

On the second one, it looked like Copper is running a post route, now, based on the underneath coverage, he should have broke it off and adjusted to the flag route. That is where Matt Cassel threw the ball.

And, it was put in a spot that only Copper would get it if he made the proper adjustment.

Now, to some these probably looked like wildly errant throws. They weren't.

As far as what you buy about his leadership.... your are entitled to your opinion. But, there has to be something that keeps the guys playing hard for him. I mean, especially since he has not physical ability.

[patteeu]

How likely is it that Todd Haley is going to say what he's thinking?

It depends on what he's thinking. If he really thinks that Cassel's arrow is pointing up, he's very likely to say it. If he thinks there's no chance that Cassel will ever work out, he probably doesn't say anything about his arrow.

So anyway, getting back to my question, so what if Rodney Harrison doesn't believe in Cassel?

[SenselessChiefsFan]

1.Yeah like they'd throw him under the bus.:rolleyes:
2.It was on a pregame show last year around mid season I believe.No I don't have a link as I watched it happen on TV.

1) They didn't have to respond at all. The Chiefs weren't playing them. The Chiefs put in a call to them for an interview. They chose to respond. It was even pointed out in one article that Brady doesn't do these types of interviews and only did it due to his respect for Cassel.

2) I am not saying that you are lying... I just wanted to see it. Even with the subsequent link posted, it is clear that Harrison is not a huge Cassel fan. I just wanted to see it.

[Bane]

Good answer. I can see you put a lot of thought into it. :thumb:

It's useless arguing with you Cassel ballwashers.

It depends on what he's thinking. If he really thinks that Cassel's arrow is pointing up, he's very likely to say it. If he thinks there's no chance that Cassel will ever work out, he probably doesn't say anything about his arrow.



So anyway, getting back to my question, so what if Rodney Harrison doesn't believe in Cassel?

He's saying what pioli want's him to.I'd bet he would pul Cassel in a heartbeat if we had a viable back up and Pioli wouldn't kill him.Cassel is Pioli's poster boy,not Haley's.



He knows him better than Haley no matter what you Cassel ballwashers want to believe.Hell Haley didn't even know who the **** he was till we traded for him.That was all Pioli and you're blind if you think otherwise.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Which of those would you say is more likely to be obfuscating?

Actions speak louder than words. On 4th and 2 on the opening drive, Haley trusted Cassel enough to put the ball in his hands rather than kick a field goal or try to run it.

He had Cassel under center, not in shot gun. He didn't run any misdirection. He didn't run PAP.

He clearly thinks more of Cassel than you realize. And, I know he thinks more of Cassel than I do.

I wouldn't have had him do that.... I would have kicked the field goal... but if I felt like I absolutely must have a TD.... I would have at least gone with PAP to give him more room to work.

[Sully]

First, Cassel doesn't have any weaker arm than Sanchez. It is an average NFL arm. Arm strength isn't a problem.

Second, the coaches are very emphatic about protecting the ball. I imagine they are more concerned with that than anything else because they know they have a good defense and a good running game.

Third, boy, if they don't trust his decision making... then it would be very odd to put the ball in his hands on 4th and 2.

Fourth, slow to throw? At times? Always? Nope... another exageration....which is needed to justify your position, I suppose. He has done a good job of hitting guys in stride on many occaisions.

Accuracy is crap? Well, if you watch the game of football at all, the WR's often have to reach for the ball. The receivers and him also need to get on the same page.

Look at the first two incompletions on the first drive of last weeks game. On the first one, JC let the linebacker get underneath. Now, Cassel might have just been throwing the ball away, but he certainly made sure that the only guy that would get it was Charles.... and had Charles given himself more space, it could have been a completion.

On the second one, it looked like Copper is running a post route, now, based on the underneath coverage, he should have broke it off and adjusted to the flag route. That is where Matt Cassel threw the ball.

And, it was put in a spot that only Copper would get it if he made the proper adjustment.

Now, to some these probably looked like wildly errant throws. They weren't.

As far as what you buy about his leadership.... your are entitled to your opinion. But, there has to be something that keeps the guys playing hard for him. I mean, especially since he has not physical ability.

I don't want to do a point-by-point on my iPhone, but I'll start by saying When did I bring up Sanchez? And finish by saying, the rest of your points are lacking, as well.

[Dave Lane]

I think Gannon's nickname was noodle arm when he was with the raiders. I think Gannon is Cassels upside which tells me he isn't good enough. Gannon isn't what we need. We need Manning or even a Trent Green.

Gannon isnt good enough to hold out hope for in 3-4 years, better to cut bait and move on.

[Sully]

Actions speak louder than words. On 4th and 2 on the opening drive, Haley trusted Cassel enough to put the ball in his hands rather than kick a field goal or try to run it.

He had Cassel under center, not in shot gun. He didn't run any misdirection. He didn't run PAP.

He clearly thinks more of Cassel than you realize. And, I know he thinks more of Cassel than I do.

I wouldn't have had him do that.... I would have kicked the field goal... but if I felt like I absolutely must have a TD.... I would have at least gone with PAP to give him more room to work.
He also gave him no reads and no options. Where's the trust? ROFL

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I dontrecall much about his time in Minnesota, other than thinking, "Thise guys need a quarterback!" maybe you can provide evidence that they were similar other than stats.
As to where Cassell could've started in college, that has no bearing on the conversation.
Maybe if Cassell had started in college, he'd have better abilities. But I don't care. As a Chiefs fan, where he is right now isn't good enough. Where he is (or even might be) going isn't good enough, either.
I don't want to be the Ravens or the Bucs.
I want to be the 00s Pats or Steelers, the 90s Cowboys, or the 80s 49ers.
You should want the same.

#1) I told you how they compare. They are both athletic. They both have struggled to adapt to the NFL. They both were better out of the shotgun initially. They both stared down WR's.

#2) I am not excusing Cassel by saying he didn't play in college. But, the point was made that Gannon started in college. It is a dumb point because Cassel would have started at nearly any other school.... and the fact that he stayed in USC to be a member of the 'team' just speaks to what kind of guy he is.

#3) The Chiefs are closer to the 01 Pats than anyone realizes. They didn't have the big aerial attack back then. They were dinking and dunking. They made timely plays when they had to.

I agree that Cassel isn't yet good enough. I don't know, and you don't know whether he will become good enough.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

He also gave him no reads and no options. Where's the trust? ROFL

So, are we to bash him for the throw or not? Or is it whichever proves your point at the time?

Even if he does tell Cassel right where to go with the ball... he still trusts Cassel to deliver the throw.

And, if his arm strength and accuracy are as bad as you claim...then Haley is the dumbest coach on the planet.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I don't want to do a point-by-point on my iPhone, but I'll start by saying When did I bring up Sanchez? And finish by saying, the rest of your points are lacking, as well.

Just a comparison that the board is familar with. Sanchez and Cassel have similar arm strength.

[patteeu]

It's useless arguing with you Cassel ballwashers.

The fact that I don't buy into the extreme view that Cassel has proven himself to be a bust beyond any reasonable doubt makes me a ballwasher? I think it just makes me skeptical but open minded instead of a drone who faithfully follows the prevailing views of a few forceful CP personalities like you and the other beta dogs who like to run with the pack.

He's saying what pioli want's him to.I'd bet he would pul Cassel in a heartbeat if we had a viable back up and Pioli wouldn't kill him.Cassel is Pioli's poster boy,not Haley's.

Well we can't really know one way or the other on this so your theory is as good as any I guess, and it has the added benefit of supporting the conclusion you want to reach. I'd love to see Haley put someone in who he believed was better than Cassel. I've never been a Cassel believer and I was skeptical of the trade from the beginning with the caveat that I was willing to defer to Pioli's superior knowledge. No doubt that's a Cassel ballwashing position.

He knows him better than Haley no matter what you Cassel ballwashers want to believe.Hell Haley didn't even know who the **** he was till we traded for him.That was all Pioli and you're blind if you think otherwise.

You think Rodney Harrison knows Cassel better than the guy who has been his head coach for the past two years and who spent all of last season as the guy's QB coach and offensive coordinator as well? Really? OK. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one because I don't think that makes a bit of sense.

[patteeu]

I think Gannon's nickname was noodle arm when he was with the raiders. I think Gannon is Cassels upside which tells me he isn't good enough. Gannon isn't what we need. We need Manning or even a Trent Green.

Gannon isnt good enough to hold out hope for in 3-4 years, better to cut bait and move on.

If you think anyone in this thread is advocating for a 3-4 year wait, you've misread the thread.

[King_Chief_Fan]

dont know how old Gannon was..........but I am pretty certain that Cassel won't be able to live to see the day where he is a franchise QB

[SenselessChiefsFan]

He knows him better than Haley no matter what you Cassel ballwashers want to believe.Hell Haley didn't even know who the **** he was till we traded for him.That was all Pioli and you're blind if you think otherwise.

Let me be the first to say that Haley probably didn't know him directly when they traded for him.

Now, it is stupid to say that he didn't know who he was. He has started 15 games and put up good numbers.

At this point, however, Haley knows Cassel much better than Harrison.

Harrison is still basing his opinion of Cassel on Cassel two years ago.

Haley is in the film room with him. Haley is at every practice with him.

To say that Harrison knows him better than Haley is stupid.

But, then again, it is pointless to argue logic with casselbashers.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

If you think anyone in this thread is advocating for a 3-4 year wait, you've misread the thread.

What else is new?

See, the guys who have concluded that Cassel sucks sees anyone with a bit of an open mind as a ball washer.


Clearly, Pioli just doesn't want to admit his mistake. Clearly Haley and Weis don't trust him.

Clearly, this message board is fully of quality GM's and talent evaluators and the Chiefs front office is just slow to catch up.

And, anyone who posts anything that could possibly construed as opposed to this certainty.... is a cassel ball washer.

[Sully]

So, are we to bash him for the throw or not? Or is it whichever proves your point at the time?

Even if he does tell Cassel right where to go with the ball... he still trusts Cassel to deliver the throw.

And, if his arm strength and accuracy are as bad as you claim...then Haley is the dumbest coach on the planet.

I've been pretty consistent with this.
I put it more on Cassell than the coaching staff.
Cassell isn't good enough to make reads or the good throw, therefore, the coaching staff is handcuffed as to what they can call.
They call a play where they think the one option is going to spring open, and go with that.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

I've been pretty consistent with this.
I put it more on Cassell than the coaching staff.
Cassell isn't good enough to make reads or the good throw, therefore, the coaching staff is handcuffed as to what they can call.
They call a play where they think the one option is going to spring open, and go with that.

Funny how they put it in the hands of Cassel, since they know how poor he is. I mean, just kick the field goal.

Fourth and short. They have one of the better running games in the league. Just the play before they had the corner sealed when JC juggled the ball.

And, yet, he decides to throw it.

And, even that PROVES that they don't trust Cassel. I love this board's logic sometimes.

[Sully]

Remember that lady who got a face transplant in France a year or two ago?

Going into the operating room, the doctor could say with all honesty and confidence that looks-wise, her arrow was pointing up.
That said, I'm still not going up to her in a bar and asking if she likes eggs for breakfast.

Don't look now, but Cassell's face is missing.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Remember that lady who got a face transplant in France a year or two ago?

Going into the operating room, the doctor could say with all honesty and confidence that looks-wise, her arrow was pointing up.
That said, I'm still not going up to her in a bar and asking if she likes eggs for breakfast.

Don't look now, but Cassell's face is missing.

ROFL