Should penalties be able to be challenged in the NFL?

[Fumblerooski]

I've been going over last weeks game in my head this evening, and just had an off-hand thought about how that PI call would have turned out had Haley been able to challenge the penalty call. And tried to put myself on both sides of the argument for and against it. As well as just realizing the NFL would never just expose the referee's to such questioning.

When thinking it would be a good idea, I was going over how many league letters must go out weekly and how it would ultimately ensure the calls are correct on the field. The coaches are already able to kind of challenge a referee's decision by challenging ball spots and so forth. Getting everything right would be the pro's in this scenario, while a potentially longer game and bitter zebra's the con's...

When thinking against it, I came up with the argument that it wouldn't really change much anyway. While there are horribly blown calls week in and week out, generally they do not effect the outcome of a game anyway. The winners still find ways to overcome and win, and the losers do not. Most flags are judgment calls anyway, and the referee would tend to follow the judgment of his co-workers and not overturn many unless it was completely, 100%, entirely, extra-ordinarily terrible.

I dunno... I just know the NFL are prickly bitches when it comes to players and coaches criticizing their officials, yet there seems to be no real penalty for bad officiating except their score may go down, and they don't "make the playoffs"... I find that to be a little too lenient.

What say you planet? Good Idea? Bad Idea? Good Idea that will never happen anyway so why even discuss it?

I'm going to try to make a poll, but if it never comes...

That's because i'm too stupid to figure it out.

[ILikeBigTiddys]

Everything should be reviewable.

Next

[ChiefNHouston]

uh, no.

[Fumblerooski]

uh, no.

Why not?

[Bane]

I'm kinda torn on the issue.While I'd like the refs to get every call right the first time,it's simply impossible at game speed with everything that they have to keep up with.I mean if that's the end game then just take them off the field,put them up in the booth with all of the cameras and replays at their disposal and maybe then they have a better shot of being perfect.

[ChiefNHouston]

Why not?

Penalties are whats part of the game. Thats what makes it interesting. This would be the same thing as taking an umpire from behind the plate and just just having a computer make all the strikes and balls calls. A little error from the umps/refs is part of the game. Like in baseball you have to make adjustments to the strike zone. In football if they aren't calling holding on tamba hali hell just keep holding him. Making adjustments to the games is the difference between wins and loses. good teams and bad teams.

[Fumblerooski]

I'm kinda torn on the issue.While I'd like the refs to get every call right the first time,it's simply impossible at game speed with everything that they have to keep up with.I mean if that's the end game then just take them off the field,put them up in the booth with all of the cameras and replays at their disposal and maybe then they have a better shot of being perfect.

Exactly where I am. I'm in the middle of an argument I started with myself. (That sounds crazy, and probably is.) I don't know what side of the fence to be on. I figure, throw it up on here and hope someone convinces me one way or the other.

[Fumblerooski]

Penalties are whats part of the game. Thats what makes it interesting. This would be the same thing as taking an umpire from behind the plate and just just having a computer make all the strikes and balls calls. A little error from the umps/refs is part of the game. Like in baseball you have to make adjustments to the strike zone. In football if they aren't calling holding on tamba hali hell just keep holding him. Making adjustments to the games is the difference between wins and loses. good teams and bad teams.

That's a good take, human error is indeed part of the game and important to it's success. I'm not suggesting non-calls be reviewable. (but it would probably eventually end up that way if calls were.) But blatant errors should be able to be corrected. I dunno...

[ChiefNHouston]

That's a good take, human error is indeed part of the game and important to it's success. I'm not suggesting non-calls be reviewable. (but it would probably eventually end up that way if calls were.) But blatant errors should be able to be corrected. I dunno...

funny you make this thread. I just had the same conversation with someone the other day.

[veist]

I'd like to see essentially a situation where the replay booth could initiate a review of some penalties late in games at the very least but I doubt they consider it anytime soon.

[JD10367]

Everything should be reviewable. It already is, off the record: thanks to technology, we have the ability to replay what just happened. And then everyone at home, and in the stadium watching the Jumbotrons, sees exactly what happened, and even the refs themselves might look up and think privately, "Oops, fucked up that one." Why, in this day and age, we still have AARP-eligible fat guys with bad eyes deciding these games is beyond me. Already this year we've seen a couple of teams get screwed by calls or non-calls or wrong calls (Chiefs included). Oh, it's nice when the NFL sends a team an apology letter a few days later saying, "Oops, we fucked up the call." Too bad they don't send a W in your stat column at the same time. They already have the challenge rule, and the replay booth on the field, and the refs can already stop play and review something in the last two minutes of the game. Just go whole-hog already, and have a senior official in the booth (with the power to override the on-field call) with access to the same replays we see at home. Get rid of that stupid on-field booth; it doesn't work. It's supposed to take a minute or less but always takes five, by the time the old bastard walks over to the booth, shoots the shit with the guy upstairs, watches it a few times... If they move the "final word" upstairs it'll happen a lot quicker and smoother.

And this isn't just for football. I think all sports should have more thorough refereeing by video evidence. There are slight inroads being made (whether a baseball is fair or foul, whether a hockey puck crosses the goal line, whether a basketball shot leaves the player's hands before the clock hits double zeroes) but it's not enough. How is an on-field ump supposed to catch the split-second difference between a runner's toe hitting the bag and the baseman catching the ball? Why do we have to watch an ump punch out a batter on a third strike when everyone at home can see on the replay that it was about six inches outside the strike zone? Sports are now multimillion-dollar businesses and, as such, should be reffed accordingly.

[Bugeater]

Everything should be reviewable. It already is, off the record: thanks to technology, we have the ability to replay what just happened. And then everyone at home, and in the stadium watching the Jumbotrons, sees exactly what happened, and even the refs themselves might look up and think privately, "Oops, fucked up that one." Why, in this day and age, we still have AARP-eligible fat guys with bad eyes deciding these games is beyond me. Already this year we've seen a couple of teams get screwed by calls or non-calls or wrong calls (Chiefs included). Oh, it's nice when the NFL sends a team an apology letter a few days later saying, "Oops, we fucked up the call." Too bad they don't send a W in your stat column at the same time. They already have the challenge rule, and the replay booth on the field, and the refs can already stop play and review something in the last two minutes of the game. Just go whole-hog already, and have a senior official in the booth (with the power to override the on-field call) with access to the same replays we see at home. Get rid of that stupid on-field booth; it doesn't work. It's supposed to take a minute or less but always takes five, by the time the old bastard walks over to the booth, shoots the shit with the guy upstairs, watches it a few times... If they move the "final word" upstairs it'll happen a lot quicker and smoother.

And this isn't just for football. I think all sports should have more thorough refereeing by video evidence. There are slight inroads being made (whether a baseball is fair or foul, whether a hockey puck crosses the goal line, whether a basketball shot leaves the player's hands before the clock hits double zeroes) but it's not enough. How is an on-field ump supposed to catch the split-second difference between a runner's toe hitting the bag and the baseman catching the ball? Why do we have to watch an ump punch out a batter on a third strike when everyone at home can see on the replay that it was about six inches outside the strike zone? Sports are now multimillion-dollar businesses and, as such, should be reffed accordingly.
OH BUT HUMAN ERROR IS PART OF THE GAME!!! :rolleyes:

[ChiefNHouston]

OH BUT HUMAN ERROR IS PART OF THE GAME!!! :rolleyes:

It is dumb fuck

[Frazod]

Option 3. Penalties (of both the called and uncalled variety) are the primary method of the league enforcing desired outcomes.

They will never give that up.

[Fumblerooski]

Option 3. Penalties (of both the called and uncalled variety) are the primary method of the league enforcing desired outcomes.

They will never give that up.

Super Bowl XL? :hmmm:

[JD10367]

It is dumb ****

Your daddy should've pulled out.

[yhf]

OH BUT HUMAN ERROR IS PART OF THE GAME!!! :rolleyes:

Well yeah it is.

Long ago, people much smarter than you or I determined that discord and dissent generated a stronger and more passionate following.

Today's professional sports leagues are left with the difficult task of balancing modern technology (that could easily supplant the human element) versus the human element (that clearly generates attention/passion).

[ChiefNHouston]

Well yeah it is.

Long ago, people much smarter than you or I determined that discord and dissent generated a stronger and more passionate following.

Today's professional sports leagues are left with the difficult task of balancing modern technology (that could easily supplant the human element) versus the human element (that clearly generates attention/passion).

common sense on the planet :eek:

[Psyko Tek]

Penalties are whats part of the game. Thats what makes it interesting. This would be the same thing as taking an umpire from behind the plate and just just having a computer make all the strikes and balls calls. A little error from the umps/refs is part of the game. Like in baseball you have to make adjustments to the strike zone. In football if they aren't calling holding on tamba hali hell just keep holding him. Making adjustments to the games is the difference between wins and loses. good teams and bad teams.

fuck baseball

[Mojo Jojo]

Let's play this out....
A hold is challenged...the replay official says there is no hold; however while watching the replay he see's a leg whip that wasn't called. Is the offense now penalized 15-yards for winning a 10-yard challenge?
Where would it end?

[yhf]

Let's play this out....
A hold is challenged...the replay official says there is no hold; however while watching the replay he see's a leg whip that wasn't called. Is the offense now penalized 15-yards for winning a 10-yard challenge?
Where would it end?

I think you just found the can o' worms at the bottom of the rabbit hole. Did you meet that Pandora bitch while you were down there?

[Fumblerooski]

Let's play this out....
A hold is challenged...the replay official says there is no hold; however while watching the replay he see's a leg whip that wasn't called. Is the offense now penalized 15-yards for winning a 10-yard challenge?
Where would it end?

I would say yes, the 15 yard penalty would be called... But likely the same coach in the booth that tells the head coach "Throw the Flag, Throw the Flag!" would notice that and tell coach not to throw the flag as they do in the instance a team is screwed on a spot, yet the coach up top realized the receiver stepped out of bounds at the beginning of his route before catching the ball and it went unnoticed. So instead of yelling for the spot replay flag, that coach tells the head coach to go into hurry-up to prevent an incompletion call...

Of course, under 2 mins in the half.... it could get ugly...

[JD10367]

Long ago, people much smarter than you or I determined that discord and dissent generated a stronger and more passionate following.

So let me get this straight: your premise is that sports owners and league officials decided that getting calls wrong would actually be good because it would band fans together?

That's probably one of the stupider things I've read on the Internet. Which is no small feat.

[Mojo Jojo]

I would say yes, the 15 yard penalty would be called... But likely the same coach in the booth that tells the head coach "Throw the Flag, Throw the Flag!" would notice that and tell coach not to throw the flag as they do in the instance a team is screwed on a spot, yet the coach up top realized the receiver stepped out of bounds at the beginning of his route before catching the ball and it went unnoticed. So instead of yelling for the spot replay flag, that coach tells the head coach to go into hurry-up to prevent an incompletion call...

Of course, under 2 mins in the half.... it could get ugly...

You understand that the coaches in the booth are only allowed to watch the live network feed. So, it is up to the TV truck about what is seen for replays and challenges.

[yhf]

So let me get this straight: your premise is that sports owners and league officials decided that getting calls wrong would actually be good because it would band fans together?

That's probably one of the stupider things I've read on the Internet. Which is no small feat.

NO. They didn't decide.

They realized through basic market observation of the consumer base that a certain level of dispute, related to human error, generated a stronger following.

So let me get this straight: you honestly don't believe that a licensing body (the NFL) would allow its clients (the networks) to openly demonstrate the failure of its quality control agents (the officials) if the licensing body didn't KNOW for a fact that human error bullshit (within certain parameters) does in fact increase the overall value of its product.

That would be one of the more stupid things I have read on the net. Which is no mean feat.

[BWillie]

Everything should be reviewable.

Next

Only in the last half of the 4th quarter...then I would agree.

[007]

never happen. The NFL will never let go of their "judgment call" excuse.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Rich Eisen asked Rich McKay on NFL Total Access yesterday, citing the BS helmet-to-helmet call against the Jets' Jim Leonard in Denver, a play in which the Jets challenged whether or not the catch was made.

On replay, there clearly was no helmet-to-helmet contact, but McKay's excuse is that it's a slippery slope: don't want to start reviewing judgment calls.

Only reviewable penalty is 12 men on the field.

[Sully]

Iirc, during the first instant replay go around, PI was reviewable. But it really is such a judgment call, it was a mess.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

You should be able to challenge obviously bad calls but if you lose the challenge it costs your team 3 points, 10 yards and a kick to the gonads.

[Dave Lane]

I said yes but only with the stipulation that the number and type be extremely limited.

[Chiefnj2]

They can't even make the correct call on a lot of plays that are currently reviewable.

[Frazod]

They can't even make the correct call on a lot of plays that are currently reviewable.

It's not that they can't; often, they just don't.

And thanks to our big ass HDTVs and slow motion replays, we KNOW exactly what they're doing wrong, because we're seeing the same thing they see.

[suds79]

I said yes but only with the stipulation that the number and type be extremely limited.

You know when I first saw the topic I thought it was crazy.

But what if they didn't change anything and simply kept it to 3 challenges. Just challenge whatever you want.

I'm coming around to the idea.

[milkman]

Rich Eisen asked Rich McKay on NFL Total Access yesterday, citing the BS helmet-to-helmet call against the Jets' Jim Leonard in Denver, a play in which the Jets challenged whether or not the catch was made.

On replay, there clearly was no helmet-to-helmet contact, but McKay's excuse is that it's a slippery slope: don't want to start reviewing judgment calls.

Only reviewable penalty is 12 men on the field.

The league needs to add a common scense factor to the 12 men on the field rule.
If a player is headed to the sidelines, and is oinly a couple of feet inbounds, miles awy from the play, with his back to the action, clearly not a factor in any way, that should be ignored.
Flagging a team in that sitiation is just fucking stupid.

As to the original question, no, PI should not be reviewable.

However, since they fuck it so often, and are more inconsistent with that than just about any other, the NFL needs to adopt the college rule, which only gives the the offense 15 yards, rather than a spot foul, because it is such a game changing penalty as it stands.

The other rule that needs to be changed is the defensive holding call.

Should be a 10 yard penalty, rather than 5 yards, but not an automatic first down.
That is a game changing penalty, as well.

[milkman]

Refresh

[The Franchise]

The league needs to add a common scense factor to the 12 men on the field rule.
If a player is headed to the sidelines, and is oinly a couple of feet inbounds, miles awy from the play, with his back to the action, clearly not a factor in any way, that should be ignored.
Flagging a team in that sitiation is just fucking stupid.

As to the original question, no, PI should not be reviewable.

However, since they fuck it so often, and are more inconsistent with that than just about any other, the NFL needs to adopt the college rule, which only gives the the offense 15 yards, rather than a spot foul, because it is such a game changing penalty as it stands.

The other rule that needs to be changed is the defensive holding call.

Should be a 10 yard penalty, rather than 5 yards, but not an automatic first down.
That is a game changing penalty, as well.

All of this.

I'm tired of seeing teams hurry up to the ball to snap it because they know that one of the defensive players isn't completely off of the field yet.

[Fumblerooski]

I said yes but only with the stipulation that the number and type be extremely limited.

Holding and interference calls?

[JD10367]

So someone say again how big-league sports shouldn't have thorough replay via technical abilities instead of old fucks with bad eyesight? If the Rangers lose this game by a run and then lose Game 7? How the fuck does the ump and crew NOT SEE THE FUCKING BALL BOUNCE OFF HIS FUCKING SHIN?!? Utter bullshit.

[GloryDayz]

You should get as many reviews as you need to improve the game... And, if you catch officials making more than two bads calls per game, you should be able to have them removed for cause (we'll call it "having a bad day evidently").. If it's able to be shown (QED!!!), then let it be so. Heck, I think if you can prove that some O limeman was holding on a play, you should be able to do it, and have the laundry thrown after the fact. Far too many TD's come after a hold. And if there's a hold on every play, then call it on every play - sooner or later they'll stop!!

[milkman]

So someone say again how big-league sports shouldn't have thorough replay via technical abilities instead of old ****s with bad eyesight? If the Rangers lose this game by a run and then lose Game 7? How the **** does the ump and crew NOT SEE THE ****ING BALL BOUNCE OFF HIS ****ING SHIN?!? Utter bullshit.

Baseball is a game where replay would correct about 95%+ bad calls.

The idea that it would slow down the game is a joke.
It's already a slow game.

Install replay, put the pictcher on a clock, limit the number of times the catcher or other position players can visit the mound, keep the batter in the batter's box, limit pick off attempts, and you fix the game.

[Chiefaholic]

Human error part of the game my ass... Just imagine a scenario that the Chiefs FINALLY make it back to the Superbowl. The opponents down by 5 with seconds on the clock and have to have a TD to win. The opponent goes for a bomb with Berry and Flowers in perfect coverage. The WR pushes off, scores the winning TD, and the flag's on us.... Yeah, I'de be ectatic that human error should be allowed to be part of the game. FUG that... If player screw up, they're fined or possibly cut. The ref's shouldn't be the exception to the rule.

[greg63]

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'Nough said.

[chasedude]

My vote points to Yes.

Why?, I've seen too many interference calls that shouldn't be.

I know this would make the game longer and we'd have another Coors Light commercial to sit through, yet the correct call would be made... fairly.

[chasedude]

My vote points to Yes.

Why?, I've seen too many interference calls that shouldn't be.

I know this would make the game longer and we'd have another Coors Light commercial to sit through, yet the correct call would be made... fairly.

The interference on Carr in the endzone was bullshit!!! The replay clearly showed Carr was being held and pushed to the ground. Hey Ref, that's offensive interference not defensive

Idiot mistakes by blind officials emphasizes my need for reviews on penalties.