Has Cassel improved to the point where we can compete with SD for the AFC West?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Yes, it's a John dear too, He can also sack groceries with the best of em :) 1st round pick my ass......

I think he needs a "Dear John" tractor...

[Saul Good]

Week by week improvement before Arizona: |_| <- that much per game

Improvement from Denver to now(after 1st half if you'd like): |________________| <- that much

You'd be hard pressed to dissuade me that Cassel's play in the past two weeks is an immense leap in improvement.

Games 1 & 2: 57 QB rating
Games 3 & 4: 91 QB rating
Games 5 & 6: 134 QB rating
Games 6 & 7: 114 QB rating
Games 7 & 8: 83 QB rating
Games 9 & 10: 116 QB rating
Game 11: 129.3 QB rating

[jd1020]

Why is it that if the Chiefs beat a team, they aren't the same team if that team beats someone considered "good"? It's ****ing absurd.

I did think you ****tard. That same Cleveland team rushed for 1 million yards on us last year in Arrowhead.

Every week there is an upset in the NFL because the truth is, there isn't a ton separating the good teams from the bad ones.

The game against the SEahawks was still close in the 4th until we broke it open.

Some of you guys, like you, are ****ing morons.

Have you even been paying attention to the Browns you dim witted fuckin moron? Who's taking snaps for them? Who is now their #1 RB? I'm sure its Wallace and Harrison right?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Games 1 & 2: 57 QB rating
Games 3 & 4: 91 QB rating
Games 5 & 6: 134 QB rating
Games 6 & 7: 114 QB rating
Games 7 & 8: 83 QB rating
Games 9 & 10: 116 QB rating
Game 11: 129.3 QB rating

It's impossible to take someone seriously when they use QB rating as a source for their argument.

Cassel had a QB rating around 110 last year in Philly.

Good game, eh?

[TheGuardian]

Have you even been paying attention to the Browns you dim witted ****in moron? Who's taking snaps for them? Who is now their #1 RB? I'm sure its Wallace and Harrison right?

Colt McCoy was 9-16 for 74 yards and ZERO TD's in that game.

Hill ran 16 times for 69 yards you stupid fuck.

Who is the moron? Yeah. You. stfu bitch.

[Reaper16]

Games 1 & 2: 57 QB rating
Games 3 & 4: 91 QB rating
Games 5 & 6: 134 QB rating
Games 6 & 7: 114 QB rating
Games 7 & 8: 83 QB rating
Games 9 & 10: 116 QB rating
Game 11: 129.3 QB rating

The issue is that statistics ARE the entirety of the claim.
Welp,

[Saul Good]

Yep, HE alone would be responsible. I can just see him hitching up a hay cart filled with "The Right 52" to his Tractor, and chitty-chitty-bang-banging us right on in to the Super Bizzle.

I thought QB was the leader of the team both on offense and defense. He is the most important player in any sport, right?

If he has the best season in team history while leading a team that has been in the cellar for 3 years to the division title over the best team in the NFL, he is going to be in the top 10 of the MVP vote. That's just the way it is.

[jd1020]

Colt McCoy was 9-16 for 74 yards and ZERO TD's in that game.

Hill ran 16 times for 69 yards you stupid ****.

Who is the moron? Yeah. You. stfu bitch.

Says the person that thinks the Chiefs beat the same Browns that beat the Pats/Saints.

[Saul Good]

Welp,

I thought about using colors and silverware, but somehow that didn't seem better than stats.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Colt McCoy was 9-16 for 74 yards and ZERO TD's in that game.

Hill ran 16 times for 69 yards you stupid fuck.

Who is the moron? Yeah. You. stfu bitch.

The moron is the guy talking about a game that happened last year.

This year, THIS season, Cleveland is a much better team now than they were in Week 2, with Seneca Wallace at QB and nowhere near the running attack they have now.

If we went to Cleveland this week to play, I'm not sure we win.

And we almost lost back when they sucked.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Welp,

LMAO

[Hammock Parties]

I would break my foot off so deep in your ass you would be tasting shoe strings for a month you little faggot. Enjoy the internet.

So it's official.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2z8xdav.jpg

[tonyetony]

About this time last year against the Steelers behind the worst O-line in the NFL. I think he could finish stronger this year than most people think.

"It was the Chiefs' first home win, and first win over an opponent with a winning record, since they beat Denver in the fourth week of the 2008 season. It was the first time they'd posted back-to-back wins since Oct. 14-21, 2007.

"To do it against the defending Super Bowl champions is a great feeling," said Succop. "A lot of hard work has gone into it and our coaches and players and everybody has really bought in."


Cassel 15/30 248 8.3 2 0 100.4

[Reaper16]

I thought about using colors and silverware, but somehow that didn't seem better than stats.
How about using something that shows up on film?


Aside: What I like the least about Saul Good isn't that I disagree with him frequently, it's that he tries to use DeezNutz' posting style but does it wrong.

[TheGuardian]

The moron is the guy talking about a game that happened last year.

This year, THIS season, Cleveland is a much better team now than they were in Week 2, with Seneca Wallace at QB and nowhere near the running attack they have now.

If we went to Cleveland this week to play, I'm not sure we win.

And we almost lost back when they sucked.

And I'm sure if we did win right now, that wouldn't be a quality win either.

Go fuck yourself with a rusty shovel.

[Saul Good]

Cassel puts 42 on the first place Jags: "Their QB was hurt"
Chiefs beat the Browns: "That's a different Browns team"
Cassel puts 42 on the first place Seahawks in Seattle: "They suck"
Chiefs beat the Chargers: "That's a different San Diego team"

[jd1020]

Cassel puts 42 on the first place Jags: "Their QB was hurt"
Chiefs beat the Browns: "That's a different Browns team"
Cassel puts 42 on the first place Seahawks in Seattle: "They suck"
Chiefs beat the Chargers: "That's a different San Diego team"

Notice how half of your examples you started with Chiefs and not Cassel?

[Saul Good]

How about using something that shows up on film?


Aside: What I like the least about Saul Good isn't that I disagree with him frequently, it's that he tries to use DeezNutz' posting style but does it wrong.

Touchdown passes don't show up on film?

[Saul Good]

Notice how half of your examples you started with Chiefs and not Cassel?

I'm not claiming that Cassel played well in all of those games. Half of those are examples of wins that were discounted, so half of them start with "Chiefs".

[TheGuardian]

Cassel puts 42 on the first place Jags: "Their QB was hurt"
Chiefs beat the Browns: "That's a different Browns team"
Cassel puts 42 on the first place Seahawks in Seattle: "They suck"
Chiefs beat the Chargers: "That's a different San Diego team"

It doesn't matter man. I always said it. We could win the SB with Cassel and some people would still be yelling to draft a QB.

I am convinced that OntheRagPath58 is just like Mecca. Not a Chiefs fan that is really here just to troll.

NO ONE says they hope that a guy proves them wrong all the while having his picture in their avatar with "franchise killing shit" in it.

OTWP58 is the reason condoms should be used at all times.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I thought QB was the leader of the team both on offense and defense. He is the most important player in any sport, right?

If he has the best season in team history while leading a team that has been in the cellar for 3 years to the division title over the best team in the NFL, he is going to be in the top 10 of the MVP vote. That's just the way it is.

One, who gives a shit about team history? Great, he's going to beat some records for a franchise known for average QB play.

San Diego is the best team in the NFL? Interesting.

Dude, the "V" in "MVP" stands for VALUABLE.

He's not even the most valuable player on his own team, FFS.

[Reaper16]

Touchdown passes don't show up on film?
Of course they do. QB rating doesn't was what I was getting at.

I'd still like to see a case for Cassel's improvement at Arizona being something other than exponential that includes breaking down football games with one's own eyes and mind.

[Saul Good]

One, who gives a shit about team history? Great, he's going to beat some records for a franchise known for average QB play.

We've got a QB in the HOF.


San Diego is the best team in the NFL? Interesting.

Yes. It's not particularly close at the moment.

Dude, the "V" in "MVP" stands for VALUABLE.

He's not even the most valuable player on his own team, FFS.

This is true, but he still finishes top 10 if his numbers wind up the way they currently project and we win the division.

[Ming the Merciless]

I'd still like to see a case for Cassel's improvement at Arizona being something other than exponential that includes breaking down football games with one's own eyes and mind.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that they didn't teach you the meaning of the word exponential in special education.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It doesn't matter man. I always said it. We could win the SB with Cassel and some people would still be yelling to draft a QB.

I am convinced that OntheRagPath58 is just like Mecca. Not a Chiefs fan that is really here just to troll.

NO ONE says they hope that a guy proves them wrong all the while having his picture in their avatar with "franchise killing shit" in it.

OTWP58 is the reason condoms should be used at all times.

LMAO

Yep, been here over 5 years.

Just trolling.

Never spent a dime on season tickets while living 4 hours away, never went on trips to see them play on the road.

Never went to a CP function.

Oh wait, I DID do those things.

Those are all things YOU'VE never done.

Sorry, for a minute there, I had channeled your JUCO education and put it to use.

I'm anxiously awaiting your next threat of physical harm to me over the interwebs.

[OnTheWarpath15]

We've got a QB in the HOF.



Yes. It's not particularly close at the moment.



This is true, but he still finishes top 10 if his numbers wind up the way they currently project and we win the division.

1) I'm glad you think the 1960's and this era are comparable.

2) ROFL

3) ROFL

I don't do drugs, but I'd love to know where you get yours. They rock.

[Ming the Merciless]

Never went to a CP function.



Is taht one of the qualifications of not being a troll??

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[OnTheWarpath15]

Is taht one of the qualifications of not being a troll??

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

No.

It's just comical that someone that hides behind a keyboard, threatens people, and generally acts like an idiot is dumb enough to call someone that personally knows and is friends with close to 50 people here a troll.

Do yourself a favor, young Pawnmower. Make sure you get more than a JUCO education.

[Reaper16]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that they didn't teach you the meaning of the word exponential in special education.
I'm not using it exactly literally, but draw up a exponential growth chart and that curve will represent Cassel's insane surge in quality of play.

[Bearcat]

Cassel puts 42 on the first place Jags: "Their QB was hurt"
Chiefs beat the Browns: "That's a different Browns team"
Cassel puts 42 on the first place Seahawks in Seattle: "They suck"
Chiefs beat the Chargers: "That's a different San Diego team"

- 28th pass defense in the league... he was pretty efficient.
- 176 yards, 2 picks, 46.1 QB rating :spock:
- "first place"... heh, nice spin. I don't think anyone is discounting this game though? Everyone has really praised him about the past two weeks. :shrug:
- 68 f***ing yards, come on. LMAO

I really don't know which is worse... those who really can't give Cassel any credit... or those who can't accept the fact that the Chiefs were winning games early in the season despite their QB, and are now acting like they're geniuses because he's put together a couple of impressive games.

FFS, just because someone still isn't 100% sold on Cassel being a franchise QB that can lead the Chiefs deep into the playoffs for many years to come, doesn't mean they don't see the progress. And just because you didn't fall off the Cassel bandwagon, doesn't mean you have to go full retard and talk about how it's completely unfathomable how someone might want to see some consistency & watch the Chiefs play in important games down the stretch before they crown his ass.


Don't mind me, go back to your regularly scheduled retardation...

[Saul Good]

Of course they do. QB rating doesn't was what I was getting at.

I'd still like to see a case for Cassel's improvement at Arizona being something other than exponential that includes breaking down football games with one's own eyes and mind.

When I used TDs, INTs, and yards, you accused me of using nothing but stats. You weren't "getting at" anything. Your comment was a pejorative and nothing more.

How's this? He has taken more than one sack in a game 3 times this year. He has had 5 games where he hasn't taken a sack. That is a year over year improvement rather than a week over week improvement, but it's huge in terms of avoiding negative plays.

He threw 3 INTs in the first 3 games. He has thrown 1 in 8 games since then.

He threw 4 TDs in the first 4 games. He has thrown 18 in 7 games since then.

He threw 0 TDs twice in the first 4 games. He has thrown a TD in every game since then.

He threw more than 1 TD one time in the first 4 games. He has thrown more than 1 6 times in 7 games since then.

[OnTheWarpath15]

- 28th pass defense in the league... he was pretty efficient.
- 176 yards, 2 picks, 46.1 QB rating :spock:
- "first place"... heh, nice spin. I don't think anyone is discounting this game though? Everyone has really praised him about the past two weeks. :shrug:
- 68 f***ing yards, come on. LMAO

I really don't know which is worse... those who really can't give Cassel any credit... or those who can't accept the fact that the Chiefs were winning games early in the season despite their QB, and are now acting like they're geniuses because he's put together a couple of impressive games.

FFS, just because someone still isn't 100% sold on Cassel being a franchise QB that can lead the Chiefs deep into the playoffs for many years to come, doesn't mean they don't see the progress. And just because you didn't fall off the Cassel bandwagon, doesn't mean you have to go full retard and talk about how it's completely unfathomable how someone might want to see some consistency & watch the Chiefs play in important games down the stretch before they crown his ass.


Don't mind me, go back to your regularly scheduled retardation...

Good post.

[Bearcat]

He threw 3 INTs in the first 3 games. He has thrown 1 in 8 games since then.


Damn.

[dirk digler]

Bullshit I can't.

He was brought here to be a franchise QB, and to win a SB.

Just because he PLAYED awful last year doesn't mean I don't expect him to be what Pioli sold him to be.

And for the record, define: "win here, or anything like that."

I agree, he'll never be a franchise QB, even though we were sold that bill of goods.



In fairness OTW IIRC Pioli or Haley have never once stated that he is a franchise QB and is expected to win a SB. They have always been very constrained in their responses about him.

[Saul Good]

In fairness OTW IIRC Pioli or Haley have never once stated that he is a franchise QB and is expected to win a SB. They have always been very constrained in their responses about him.

Neither have I.

[OnTheWarpath15]

In fairness OTW IIRC Pioli or Haley have never once stated that he is a franchise QB and is expected to win a SB. They have always been very constrained in their responses about him.

Incorrect. I just saw a quote today. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding it again.

It was Pioli saying that Matt was brought in because he (Pioli) believed he was capable of winning playoff games and a championship.

[dirk digler]

Incorrect. I just saw a quote today. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding it again.

It was Pioli saying that Matt was brought in because he (Pioli) believed he was capable of winning playoff games and a championship.

I would like to see that if you can find it again. Was it a recent quote or one that he stated when they brought him in?

[Bearcat]

In fairness OTW IIRC Pioli or Haley have never once stated that he is a franchise QB and is expected to win a SB. They have always been very constrained in their responses about him.

I don't think you have to say a damn thing when you give someone that much money.

[Saul Good]

- 176 yards, 2 picks, 46.1 QB rating :spock:

Cassel was ass in that game. I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that people now want to discount that win.


- "first place"... heh, nice spin. I don't think anyone is discounting this game though?
They are in first place. What is to spin? And yes, people are discounting that win.

- 28th pass defense in the league... he was pretty efficient.
- 176 yards, 2 picks, 46.1 QB rating :spock:
- "first place"... heh, nice spin. I don't think anyone is discounting this game though? Everyone has really praised him about the past two weeks. :shrug:
- 68 f***ing yards, come on. LMAO They have discounted the win by claiming that Seattle is an easy place to win.

- 68 f***ing yards, come on. LMAOCassel was ass in that game. I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that people now want to discount that win.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I would like to see that if you can find it again. Was it a recent quote or one that he stated when they brought him in?

I don't know.

It was in a thread today, possibly in someone's sig.

I'll try to find it, but in the meantime you can either trust me, or not.

[dirk digler]

I stand corrected...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14378799/cassel-proving-to-be-differencemaker-in-kc

"I think he's an NFL starting quarterback you can win with and win championships with," Pioli said at training camp last summer. "Matt adjusted to a lot of change, showed his competitiveness, resiliency and his ability. Beyond the mental and emotional (aspect) and his competitiveness, he showed the physical ability to be able to win."

[OnTheWarpath15]

Cassel was ass in that game. I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that people now want to discount that win.


They are in first place. What is to spin? And yes, people are discounting that win.

They have discounted the win by claiming that Seattle is an easy place to win.

Cassel was ass in that game. I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that people now want to discount that win.

I think someone doesn't understand the difference between "discounting" a win, and the concept of winning games in spite of Cassel.

[philfree]

On the road against a division leading team we got two kicks blocked. One was run back for a TD and Cassel didn't even blink. The whole team didn't blink! We turned around and kicked their butt. The circumstances of every game are obviously different but doesn't that say something about our team and QB? Even good teams end up in a dogfight under those circumstances.

And to top that off there was 6:+ minutes left in that game(SD&Seattle) and Rivers had two possessions to get it done and on the 2nd and last possession he threw an INT.

So did you remember that part of it after watching it?

PhilFree:arrow:

OTWP never responded to this after he pretty much told me to step aside and watch the debate.

Excuse me if I'm insulted but that's chicken shit.


PhilFree:arrow:

[OnTheWarpath15]

I stand corrected...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14378799/cassel-proving-to-be-differencemaker-in-kc

"I think he's an NFL starting quarterback you can win with and win championships with," Pioli said at training camp last summer. "Matt adjusted to a lot of change, showed his competitiveness, resiliency and his ability. Beyond the mental and emotional (aspect) and his competitiveness, he showed the physical ability to be able to win."

That's it, though I only saw the first line.

Thanks.

[Chiefnj2]

In fairness OTW IIRC Pioli or Haley have never once stated that he is a franchise QB and is expected to win a SB. They have always been very constrained in their responses about him.

Why would they have given up a 2nd round pick and passed on other young QBs if they didn't think he could be the franchise QB?

[Saul Good]

I think someone doesn't understand the difference between "discounting" a win, and the concept of winning games in spite of Cassel.

That's not what was happening. Some n00b was here saying that the Cleveland team we beat was a totally different team than it is now, so that win is somehow less impressive.

Someone else was saying that Seattle isn't good at home, so that win is somehow less impressive.

Someone else was saying that Jax didn't have a QB so the 42 points we scored was somehow less impressive.

[OnTheWarpath15]

OTWP never responded to this after he pretty much told me to step aside and watch the debate.

Excuse me if I'm insutled but that's chicken shit.


PhilFree:arrow:

There's no reason to respond to that post, Phil.

You tried to claim that the ST meltdown we had was comparable to the ST meltdown SD had.

They weren't remotely comparable.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with the debate.

[Saul Good]

OTWP never responded to this after he pretty much told me to step aside and watch the debate.

Excuse me if I'm insulted but that's chicken shit.


PhilFree:arrow:

470 yards passing, 4 TDs, and 0 INTs isn't good enough for a QB, but 2 blocked kicks and a TD given up by special teams is fine.

[Saul Good]

You tried to claim that the ST meltdown we had was comparable to the ST meltdown SD had.

link? It didn't happen. He never made that comparison.

[Reaper16]

When I used TDs, INTs, and yards, you accused me of using nothing but stats. You weren't "getting at" anything. Your comment was a pejorative and nothing more.

How's this? He has taken more than one sack in a game 3 times this year. He has had 5 games where he hasn't taken a sack. That is a year over year improvement rather than a week over week improvement, but it's huge in terms of avoiding negative plays.

He threw 3 INTs in the first 3 games. He has thrown 1 in 8 games since then.

He threw 4 TDs in the first 4 games. He has thrown 18 in 7 games since then.

He threw 0 TDs twice in the first 4 games. He has thrown a TD in every game since then.

He threw more than 1 TD one time in the first 4 games. He has thrown more than 1 6 times in 7 games since then.
Still not seeing how he didn't see a MASSIVE improvement beginning with the Arizona game (or the 2nd half of the Denver game if one would prefer). You took issue with me saying that Cassel has shown incremental improvement this year from week to week until an explosion of improvement. These stats you just brought up (yes, these are statistics) don't do anything to refute that.

[jd1020]

That's not what was happening. Some n00b was here saying that the Cleveland team we beat was a totally different team than it is now, so that win is somehow less impressive.

They are a completely different team now. I'm sorry you are too blind to see this. Oh and we beat them with the only touchdown being scored was a pick 6 by Flowers and 3 FG's from Succop.

[jd1020]

470 yards passing, 4 TDs, and 0 INTs isn't good enough for a QB, but 2 blocked kicks and a TD given up by special teams is fine.

470 yds, 4 TD's leading the team to 29 points after the other team had already scored 35 points. Ya, I would say thats not good enough.

[dirk digler]

That's it, though I only saw the first line.

Thanks.

You were right I was wrong.

Why would they have given up a 2nd round pick and passed on other young QBs if they didn't think he could be the franchise QB?

Because there were no other viable options and they didn't believe in Sanchez so they took the best option and one that Pioli was very familiar with. Add in the fact they gave him a contract that gave them an out after this season.

[philfree]

There's no reason to respond to that post, Phil.

You tried to claim that the ST meltdown we had was comparable to the ST meltdown SD had.

They weren't remotely comparable.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with the debate.

No it's you cherry picking. LOL


PhilFree:arrow:

[kcxiv]

They are a completely different team now. I'm sorry you are too blind to see this. Oh and we beat them with the only touchdown being scored was a pick 6 by Flowers and 3 FG's from Succop.

well, like i said with your ass earlier, we are different as well. We have a passing game now, we have a legit number 1 wide out thats doing some insane things. Regardlss of who the competition is. Like i said, he didnt do any of this shit in his last 4 seasons. He's been ok at times, but never this good.

We can only play who is on the schedule though. Hell, we are winning and we are beat up in our secondary.

[Chief_For_Life58]

i like cassell. he can lead us to a superbowl. he can. we have all got to watch his progression as a chief and i definately think it has been good. the skys the limit for cassell and this young team. go chiefs

[Chiefnj2]

You were right I was wrong.



Because there were no other viable options and they didn't believe in Sanchez so they took the best option and one that Pioli was very familiar with. Add in the fact they gave him a contract that gave them an out after this season.

They could have picked up a baby sitter much cheaper. Even if he has an out this year they are 25 million or so in the hole. That's not rent-a-qb money.

[westchamps]

Cassel has improved since last year, but 1 player does not make a team. Look what happened to Indy last week against the West Champs. Everybody in the NFL knows S.D. Nov/Dec Record , which a well rounded team, it was years in the making. I think if you can make this Denver game close and maybe pull off a win it will help Cassel against the champs. But dont forget what the Donks did to the Chiefs, it was a thrashing and not sure if the Chiefs have forgotten this. Dont take this Donks game lightly, they hate the Chiefs as much as the Faiders, nothing would make them more happier then playing spoilers.Oct. 10 at Indianapolis L, 19-9
Oct. 17 at Houston L, 35-31
Oct. 24 Jacksonville W, 42-20
Oct. 31 Buffalo W, 13-10 OT
Nov. 7 at Oakland L, 23-20 OT
Nov. 14 at Denver L, 49-29

[ChiefsCountry]

i like cassell. he can lead us to a superbowl. he can. we have all got to watch his progression as a chief and i definately think it has been good. the skys the limit for cassell and this young team. go chiefs

Who's mult is this?

[Saul Good]

Still not seeing how he didn't see a MASSIVE improvement beginning with the Arizona game (or the 2nd half of the Denver game if one would prefer). You took issue with me saying that Cassel has shown incremental improvement this year from week to week until an explosion of improvement. These stats you just brought up (yes, these are statistics) don't do anything to refute that.

It was a MASSIVE improvement. I don't disagree with that. My point wasn't to necessarily disagree. It was to show that there has been steady improvement. I understand that "exponential" accounts for this, but I'm not sure that you really gave him enough recognition for what he did before the Arizona game.

It's easy to say that Metallica was a good band, but if you didn't realize it until the Black album came out, you were a little late to the party. (And no, Cassel is not to QB as Metallica is to music.)

[philfree]

There's no reason to respond to that post, Phil.

You tried to claim that the ST meltdown we had was comparable to the ST meltdown SD had.

They weren't remotely comparable.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with the debate.

Oh yeah, and the reason to reply to that post was to be at least respectful to a fellow planet member.


LOL It's not comparable in your mind because it ruined your argument.


PhilFree:arrow:

[kcxiv]

They could have picked up a baby sitter much cheaper. Even if he has an out this year they are 25 million or so in the hole. That's not rent-a-qb money.

that doesnt matter since we are so fucking far under the cap as it is. Its not like his contract is holding the Chiefs back. it means nothing but him getting paid alot of money.

Does he deserve it? hell no, but he got it and its not holding this team back, so what does it matter. If he was playing shitty as hell still, then he would be gone, if he continues to play well, then fuck it , i am on board and i was a HUGE HUGE fucking Cassel basher. I even have a fucking hot key made that says i fucking hate Matt Cassel. lol

[Saul Good]

They could have picked up a baby sitter much cheaper. Even if he has an out this year they are 25 million or so in the hole. That's not rent-a-qb money.

We're $40 billion below the salary floor. Money is not an issue.

[The Bad Guy]

The moron is the guy talking about a game that happened last year.

This year, THIS season, Cleveland is a much better team now than they were in Week 2, with Seneca Wallace at QB and nowhere near the running attack they have now.

If we went to Cleveland this week to play, I'm not sure we win.

And we almost lost back when they sucked.

We get it. The sky is always falling.

[dirk digler]

They could have picked up a baby sitter much cheaper. Even if he has an out this year they are 25 million or so in the hole. That's not rent-a-qb money.

They were so far under the cap it didn't matter and his contract was the equivalent of 2 years of paying the franchise QB number.

[BossChief]

After the way Matt has grown since the first half of the Denver game, how is it not possible for us to win a championship with him?

I have been in the I Hate Cassel wagon since wayyyy before day one, but right now he is playing better than I ever thought he would....there is nothing that says that trend cant continue.

I never thought he could get past things like:

Not playing instinctively.
Not going through reads
Not avoiding pressure
Taking unessesary sacks
Throwing into coverage when he didnt need to
stepping up into the pocket and throwing with velocity

Among plenty of other things that he has shown to have been able tto do recently.

Pure and simple, if teams in the playoffs stop our running game they are gonna have to put 8 in the box to do it and there is no reason to think that Cassel cant take advantage of that if/when that happens.

Especially if/when we get Dexter McCluster back as well as Brandon Albert and this offense is back to full strength.

I said it a few games ago and its starting to look like a damn good observation:

A lot of very good quarterbacks looked like crap in their first 36 starts (in the NFL after being a starter in college) and Cassel has now started 41 games in the NFL and he has surely grown quite a bit over the last few weeks.

22tds
4 ints

Fuck stats right?

Well, at least that shows that even when he was playing poorly, he was protecting the ball and that is a huge factor in winning games in this league.

What is that ridiculous stat for teams winning percentage when they win the turnover battle in the playoffs again?

[Saul Good]

They were so far under the cap it didn't matter and his contract was the equivalent of 2 years of paying the franchise QB number.

Sanchez would have cost a first round pick, and he got a $28,000,000 signing bonus.

[dirk digler]

After the way Matt has grown since the first half of the Denver game, how is it not possible for us to win a championship with him?



That is going a little far. We still have 5 games left for him to shit the bed.

[Reaper16]

It was a MASSIVE improvement. I don't disagree with that. My point wasn't to necessarily disagree. It was to show that there has been steady improvement. I understand that "exponential" accounts for this, but I'm not sure that you really gave him enough recognition for what he did before the Arizona game.

It's easy to say that Metallica was a good band, but if you didn't realize it until the Black album came out, you were a little late to the party. (And no, Cassel is not to QB as Metallica is to music.)
Tiny, though steady, improvement. Sure. Still no better than below-average at critical moments until Arizona, IMO. He was rage-inducingly bad as recently as Buffalo.

[Saul Good]

That is going a little far. We still have 5 games left for him to shit the bed.

I don't think the plan was to win one in his second season.

[Saul Good]

Tiny, though steady, improvement. Sure. Still no better than below-average at critical moments until Arizona, IMO. He was rage-inducingly bad as recently as Buffalo.

Do you think he'll continue to improve, or do you think he has hit his ceiling?

[OnTheWarpath15]

We get it. The sky is always falling.

No, it's not.

But nice deflection from what I wrote.

Cleveland would be a tougher game than Seattle, IMO.

[Saul Good]

No, it's not.

But nice deflection from what I wrote.

Cleveland would be a tougher game than Seattle, IMO.

I'd say we've got a lot better QB than we did in week 2.

[dirk digler]

I don't think the plan was to win one in his second season.

All I am saying is just because he played 2 very good games doesn't mean that he has arrived. Scott Mitchell played 2 very good games back to back as well

[OnTheWarpath15]

After the way Matt has grown since the first half of the Denver game, how is it not possible for us to win a championship with him?

Oh, I don't know.

I highly doubt playoff opponents are going to let us run for 160+, for starters.

[BossChief]

Concerning the contract...after this year and the bonus, the remainder of his contract is CHEAP AS FUCK:

7/14/2009: Signed a six-year, $63 million contract. The deal contains $28 million guaranteed, including a $10 million roster bonus in the first year. 2010: $11.75 million (+ $250,000 workout bonus), 2011: $4.75 million (+ $7.5 million option bonus), 2012: $5.25 million, 2013: $7.5 million, 2014: $9 million, 2015: Free Agent

You know what that means?

That we can continue to build this roster with him at quarterback and a new cap in put in place...another thing to consider is that I can 100% assure you that Cassel will not be asking for a renegotiation if he continues to play well, he is a patriot way guy and Even Tom Brady took what he agreed to even when he was making chump change after winning 3 superbowls. He will get his deal extended if he deserves it and plays until the end of that current deal and thats it.

[Saul Good]

Scott Mitchell played 2 very good games back to back as well

Bring him in for a look?

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'd say we've got a lot better QB than we did in week 2.

So do they.

And a much, much better running game.

Both teams have improved since that game, and we barely won it the first time - with no offensive TD's.

[-King-]

The moron is the guy talking about a game that happened last year.

This year, THIS season, Cleveland is a much better team now than they were in Week 2, with Seneca Wallace at QB and nowhere near the running attack they have now.

If we went to Cleveland this week to play, I'm not sure we win.

And we almost lost back when they sucked.

Yeah and the Steelers almost lost to the Bills....

Whats your point?

[Reaper16]

Do you think he'll continue to improve, or do you think he has hit his ceiling?
I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Concerning the contract...after this year and the bonus, the remainder of his contract is CHEAP AS FUCK:

7/14/2009: Signed a six-year, $63 million contract. The deal contains $28 million guaranteed, including a $10 million roster bonus in the first year. 2010: $11.75 million (+ $250,000 workout bonus), 2011: $4.75 million (+ $7.5 million option bonus), 2012: $5.25 million, 2013: $7.5 million, 2014: $9 million, 2015: Free Agent

You know what that means?

That we can continue to build this roster with him at quarterback and a new cap in put in place...another thing to consider is that I can 100% assure you that Cassel will not be asking for a renegotiation if he continues to play well, he is a patriot way guy and Even Tom Brady took what he agreed to even when he was making chump change after winning 3 superbowls. He will get his deal extended if he deserves it and plays until the end of that current deal and thats it.

I've been waiting for this post.

People have gone out of their way to say the contract didn't matter when he was making $16M per.

Now were a year away from getting his services at a "discount" and it suddenly makes a difference.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yeah and the Steelers almost lost to the Bills....

Whats your point?

That if we played Cleveland now, it would be a tough game?

Try to keep up.

(Funny, we almost lost to the Bills. At home.)

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.

Good post.

[philfree]

I've been waiting for this post.

People have gone out of their way to say the contract didn't matter when he was making $16M per.

Now were a year away from getting his services at a "discount" and it suddenly makes a difference.

What is being said is the whole contract issue was never an issue at all. The Cassel haters have always stated otherwise.

PhilFree:arrow:

[The Bad Guy]

That if we played Cleveland now, it would be a tough game?

Try to keep up.

(Funny, we almost lost to the Bills. At home.)

Good thing there's not an almost lost category.

[Saul Good]

I've been waiting for this post.

People have gone out of their way to say the contract didn't matter when he was making $16M per.

Now were a year away from getting his services at a "discount" and it suddenly makes a difference.

It didn't matter at the time. We were way under the cap. We now have plenty of room to sign players when we are ready to compete.

[Bearcat]

After the way Matt has grown since the first half of the Denver game, how is it not possible for us to win a championship with him?


Someone with more time could probably find a nice list of bad QBs with really good 2.5 game stretches..... and there's a huge f***ing gap between discounting his improvement and discounting what you just asked -- "how is it not possible for us to win a championship with him?"

Wow.

I agree with most of what you said, and the INT stat is pretty remarkable... but, come on, can we at least see how it all comes together this month against teams fighting for playoff spots before making SB plans? :facepalm:

[dirk digler]

I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.

I agree with most of that except we have seen other "older" QB's that didn't get a chance to play finally get their chance and really flourish. So it has happened.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Good thing there's not an almost lost category.

What does that have to do with the point?

Nothing.

I guess you turned into one of them while I was gone, Frank. You know, the guy who argues the poster, instead of the post.

Someone made a comment that we caught Cleveland at a good time.

Saul took offense.

I agreed with the original claim. I think we'd have our hands full if we had to play in Cleveland now - they are a MUCH different team than they were week 2.

That's it.

But you knew this already.

[BossChief]

Oh, I don't know.

I highly doubt playoff opponents are going to let us run for 160+, for starters.

So, you don't think he can hit Bowe in single coverage? Even the Ravens, Jets and Steelers are gonna have to bring a safety down to stop our running game.

I can see him havi8ng difficulty with the Jets defense because of their corners, but not so much against the Ravens or Steelers.

Lets say they bracket Bowe with a corner and safety to take him out of the game, or at least severely limit him....I can see DMC and Moeaki running a muck in that situation.

If this team is at full strength going into the postseason and we are playing at Arrowhead, anything can happen.

[tonyetony]

That if we played Cleveland now, it would be a tough game?

Try to keep up.

(Funny, we almost lost to the Bills. At home.)

I am sure if we played and beat Seattle the week after they beat San Diego you would say something like "Seattle just didn't have anything left in the tank after leaving it all on the field to beat the leagues best team. The Chiefs should thank Rivers for that win!"

[DaneMcCloud]

That if we played Cleveland now, it would be a tough game?

Try to keep up.

(Funny, we almost lost to the Bills. At home.)

Cleveland is still a bad team, especially with Jake Delhomme at QB and they're terribly inconsistent. I think the Chiefs team that played this past Sunday would soundly beat the Cleveland team that struggled to beat Carolina and a rookie QB this past Sunday.

The Bills are a scary team. Three out of their past five games have gone to overtime and they've won two of those games. Had it not been for Stevie Johnson's drops, they would have knocked off the Steelers.

With that said, I think the Bills are the same team the Chiefs beat in October. Young, scrappy, well coached and on the verge of becoming a winning team. I think the Chiefs would do just enough to win.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It didn't matter at the time. We were way under the cap. We now have plenty of room to sign players when we are ready to compete.

Room?

There's no cap.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I am sure if we played and beat Seattle the week after they beat San Diego you would say something like "Seattle just didn't have anything left in the tank after leaving it all on the field to beat the leagues best team. The Chiefs should thank Rivers for that win!"

I am sure you should probably refrain from thinking you know anything.

About me, what I think, what I would say, anything.

[OnTheWarpath15]

So, you don't think he can hit Bowe in single coverage? Even the Ravens, Jets and Steelers are gonna have to bring a safety down to stop our running game.

I can see him havi8ng difficulty with the Jets defense because of their corners, but not so much against the Ravens or Steelers.

Lets say they bracket Bowe with a corner and safety to take him out of the game, or at least severely limit him....I can see DMC and Moeaki running a muck in that situation.

If this team is at full strength going into the postseason and we are playing at Arrowhead, anything can happen.

I think you're overestimating our running game based on the level of opponent we've played to date.

I don't think any of those teams would have to bring a safety down.

[Bearcat]

I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.

:clap:

I don't think most of what's being said by the supposed "bashers" has to do with being cynical... it has to do with not being fickle. And how Chiefs fans... you know, fans of the team that hasn't won a playoff game in like 60 years... can have suck fickle fans is beyond me.

Yeah, I think I will wait until I see some consistency, and see him in important late-season games, and maybe even in a playoff game or three, before I start thinking this franchise can wipe out decades of failure.

[tonyetony]

I am sure you should probably refrain from thinking you know anything.

About me, what I think, what I would say, anything.

You are as predictable as a broken record.

[Saul Good]

Room?

There's no cap.

Even without a cap, there is a limit to what Clark is going to shell out in a year.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Cleveland is still a bad team, especially with Jake Delhomme at QB and they're terribly inconsistent. I think the Chiefs team that played this past Sunday would soundly beat the Cleveland team that struggled to beat Carolina and a rookie QB this past Sunday.

The Bills are a scary team. Three out of their past five games have gone to overtime and they've won two of those games. Had it not been for Stevie Johnson's drops, they would have knocked off the Steelers.

With that said, I think the Bills are the same team the Chiefs beat in October. Young, scrappy, well coached and on the verge of becoming a winning team. I think the Chiefs would do just enough to win.

My mistake on Cleveland. Had no idea Jake started. My comments are based on McCoy starting and Hillis running wild.

[DaneMcCloud]

My mistake on Cleveland. Had no idea Jake started. My comments are based on McCoy starting and Hillis running wild.

While you were on hiatus, I made several comments about the effectiveness of Colt McCoy. I was completely shocked at his ability to stay calm, cool and collected in the pocket, as well as his accuracy and mobility. I have absolutely no idea why he fell to the third round but Cleveland absolutely got a steal.

He has yet to play as a rookie QB and IMO is most certainly the second best QB of the 2010 draft class.

That said, Jake is an abomination. He had two picks last week against Carolina and one went to the house. He's a washed up bum and had he started against the Chiefs instead of Wallace, I still believe to this day that the game wouldn't have even been close.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.

What's significant is that they were the last two games. And again, I would still argue to no end that he played a good game against Oakland and put the team in a position to win that game.

What makes me see that hint of possibility is that he's doing the intangible things right. I didn't care for his win over San Fran over Jacksonville, even though we won handily. I didn't care for his win over Houston, even though we put up a ton of points. What I saw in the last two wins was good footwork, pocket presence, looking off receivers, accuracy, and checking out of plays. That's what leads me to believe that his arrow is pointing much more up than it is down.

Whether that arrow points us to a playoff QB, he has a lot to prove.

[Saul Good]

What's significant is that they were the last two games. And again, I would still argue to no end that he played a good game against Oakland and put the team in a position to win that game.

What makes me see that hint of possibility is that he's doing the intangible things right. I didn't care for his win over San Fran over Jacksonville, even though we won handily. I didn't care for his win over Houston, even though we put up a ton of points. What I saw in the last two wins was good footwork, pocket presence, looking off receivers, accuracy, and checking out of plays. That's what leads me to believe that his arrow is pointing much more up than it is down.

Whether that arrow points us to a playoff QB, he has a lot to prove.

This is a strange post. I have no idea whether I agree with it, disagree with it, or even know for sure what team you are talking about.

[TheGuardian]

Someone with more time could probably find a nice list of bad QBs with really good 2.5 game stretches.....

He threw 22 TD's and 4 picks in two and a half games???????

[Saul Good]

He threw 22 TD's and 4 picks in two and a half games???????

Yeah, but it was against bad teams, and stats don't matter.

[BossChief]

I'm cynical; I don't think he has any upside left to achieve. The past two games seem to me the best he could hope to play, given his skillset.

Thankfully for the Chiefs, that quality of QB play (abstracted from the opponent) is good enough to win a championship with. If Cassel can play consistently at that level, then Pioli would literally be allowed take a dump on my doubting-ass chest, seeing as he would have already done so figuratively.

He now has two total career games where he's looked (Looked! To my eyes!) like a legit Pro Bowl-level QB. He has plenty more games where he looks like a sub-par game manager at best and a "franchise killing shit machine" at worst. I don't see anything -- yet -- that leads me to believe he can maintain this play. But it is entirely possible, something I hadn't seriously entertained before two weeks ago.Good post, but dont forget one very very important part of this equation:

Charlie Weis

I've been waiting for this post.

People have gone out of their way to say the contract didn't matter when he was making $16M per.

Now were a year away from getting his services at a "discount" and it suddenly makes a difference.Oh come on man. You and I both know that I wasnt in that group of people that said that. I have listed the remainder of the contract in this discussion because since the day it was signed, it was a deal that:

"If he works out, this team will be able to continue to fix its holes well into the later part of the contract"

If he locks down the spot with solid play, the contract is all win from here on out. We can lock up players like Hali, Flowers, Charles and others while still having the funds available to fill a couple crucial holes because of the way the deal was worked.


I agreed with the original claim. I think we'd have our hands full if we had to play in Cleveland now - they are a MUCH different team than they were week 2.


Well, if you are to say that, then you have to acknowledge that we are also a MUCH better team than back when we played them.

This team is better in almost every way than week 2.

I cant wait to see the difference that DMC will make when he gets back on the field.

Also, Id like to add this to this conversation in regards to the upcoming game...

I "know a guy" that talked to Dex recently and Dex from his own mouth "guaranteed" that he plays against Denver.

[cdcox]

He threw 22 TD's and 4 picks in two and a half games???????

Is 32 TDs and 12 interceptions considered good?

[TheGuardian]

Who gives a fuck about his contract??????

We're not dishing it out. And there is no cap. Jesus Christ some of you are fucking breaking your arms off reaching for shit.

[TheGuardian]

Is 32 TDs and 12 interceptions considered good?

For a season it is.........

Some of you fags need to quit with the Scott Mitchell comparisons. That ship sailed long ago bitches.

[Saul Good]

Is 32 TDs and 12 interceptions considered good?

If Cassel ends his season with those numbers, no.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Good post, but dont forget one very very important part of this equation:

Charlie Weis

Oh come on man. You and I both know that I wasnt in that group of people that said that. I have listed the remainder of the contract in this discussion because since the day it was signed, it was a deal that:

"If he works out, this team will be able to continue to fix its holes well into the later part of the contract"

If he locks down the spot with solid play, the contract is all win from here on out. We can lock up players like Hali, Flowers, Charles and others while still having the funds available to fill a couple crucial holes because of the way the deal was worked.



Well, if you are to say that, then you have to acknowledge that we are also a MUCH better team than back when we played them.

This team is better in almost every way than week 2.

I cant wait to see the difference that DMC will make when he gets back on the field.

Also, Id like to add this to this conversation in regards to the upcoming game...

I "know a guy" that talked to Dex recently and Dex from his own mouth "guaranteed" that he plays against Denver.

You must have missed where I said that both teams have improved greatly since Week 2.

And I'm still wondering why people think Dexter McCluster is some sort of answer on offense.

Dude was averaging 30 yards of offense a game before he was hurt.

Personally, I hope they don't change a thing. Everything is working really, really well right now.

[cdcox]

For a season it is.........

Meet Scott Mitchell.

[TheGuardian]

If Cassel ends his season with those numbers, no.

Bullshit stats..........

[TheGuardian]

Meet Scott Mitchell.

I already addressed it in that post. I knew you were talking about Scott Mitchell, and for that season, he was good. But the comparisons of Mitchell to Cassel are fucking laughable.

[Saul Good]

For a season it is.........

Some of you pillowbiters need to quit with the Scott Mitchell comparisons. That ship sailed long ago bitches.

OMG, there was a guy 15 years ago who had a good season but turned out to be a flash in the pan. Someone's about to get pwned with this nugget.

[Reaper16]

What I saw in the last two wins was good footwork, pocket presence, looking off receivers, accuracy, and checking out of plays.
Yes. Exactly.

[cdcox]

I already addressed it in that post. I knew you were talking about Scott Mitchell, and for that season, he was good. But the comparisons of Mitchell to Cassel are ****ing laughable.

I'm just saying I want to see it for a longer period of time, with some top performances against some good teams before I start thinking about him as the player I want to build the franchise around.

[Saul Good]

I already addressed it in that post. I knew you were talking about Scott Mitchell, and for that season, he was good. But the comparisons of Mitchell to Cassel are ****ing laughable.

Oh shit. He got you good you f*cker.

[TheGuardian]

I'm just saying I want to see it for a longer period of time, with some top performances against some good teams before I start thinking about him as the player I want to build the franchise around.

He doesn't have to do it against great teams. He just has to do it on a consistent basis. Phillip Rivers hasn't won shit and has shit his pants against good teams at times too, but that doesn't keep people from calling him a franchise QB. Simply because of the numbers that he puts up, but so far he's been nothing more than the Dolts next Dan Fouts.

Cassel does need to show consistency for sure. But if he shits the bed against everyone BUT the Chargers, and plays awesome there, that doesn't work either.

He can go to San Diego, and play game manager if the ground game and defense are playing well, not turn the ball over, and lead this team to a win. This bullshit about how he needs to show up big when the ground game is down against a top 5 defense down by 10 and all that shit is nonsense. He doesn't need to do that to be a franchise QB. He just needs to continue to improve, even though he will stumble at times, and prove that more often than not he can lead the team to victory.

Dane hit on this, but even though he's 28 he is still essentially a 3rd year guy. He seems to be progressing just fine in that regard.

[BossChief]

I think you're overestimating our running game based on the level of opponent we've played to date.

I don't think any of those teams would have to bring a safety down.
Just watch this running game from here on out when we are giving Charles the majority of the carries I said this earlier in the year, that they believed we would be in this position earlier in the year and were "saving" Charles for this run and I think last week was the first taste of exactly that. I caught big hell for those comments.

I bet JC averages 23 carries from here on out and 150 yards in each game as well.

None of those teams listed are gonna stop that with 7 defenders.

NONE OF THEM
You must have missed where I said that both teams have improved greatly since Week 2.

And I'm still wondering why people think Dexter McCluster is some sort of answer on offense.

Dude was averaging 30 yards of offense a game before he was hurt.

Personally, I hope they don't change a thing. Everything is working really, really well right now.

Dude was averaging that many yards when Cassel was still playing crappy football and we had no idea how to integrate his skills into the offense.

All that has changed and he should have fresh legs.

Dude will play a crucial role if/when we enter the playoffs and in the games leading there.

[dirk digler]

But the comparisons of Mitchell to Cassel are fucking laughable.

How so?

[BaltimoreChief]

Scott sucked balls in bmore. Matt has earned an {18td to 1 int) another chance to win a playoff spot.

[cdcox]

According to Pro Football reference here is the list of players that Scott Mitchell most resembles after 5 years of playing:

Matt Cassel, Joe Kapp, Ken Stabler, Stan Humphries, Brad Johnson, Bobby Douglass, Dave Krieg, Matt Hasselbeck, Derek Anderson, Gary Danielson

That is some illustrious company he is keeping there.



Elvis Grbac looked like he was having a break-through based on his 2000 season.

Steve Bono 1995

Jeff Hostetler parlayed a 3 game playoff run in 1990 into years and years of misplaced hope.

Let's just give it a little more time before we crown his ass.

[BossChief]

Matt Cassel is a 2:1 career TD:INT guy

Michell was a career 1:1 guy

Im not 100% sold on Cassel yet, but any comparison to Mitchell isnt really relevant anymore.

Mitchell also only had one year with more than 20 td passes and in 2 1/2 years, Matt already has 2 with lesser talent to work with in his receiving core.

Lets give credit where its due and put away the full blown hatred till he earns it back, whadya say?

[DaneMcCloud]

How so?

The eyes tell a different story than the stats.

[chiefzilla1501]

You must have missed where I said that both teams have improved greatly since Week 2.

And I'm still wondering why people think Dexter McCluster is some sort of answer on offense.

Dude was averaging 30 yards of offense a game before he was hurt.

Personally, I hope they don't change a thing. Everything is working really, really well right now.

Dexter has the potential to be downright nasty. He is an underneath receiver. He is at his best when he slips underneath the coverage. Hard to do when none of your receivers are capable of making plays downfield. Moeaki and Bowe will start pulling defenders back. You get Dex the ball in open space and he's going to be a nightmare matchup.

I don't know if he's the answer. Just talking potential here. If he does the things he did in Jacksonville but with safeties playing at least a little bit back, he has the upside to be a playmaker.

[cdcox]

Simply because of the numbers that he puts up, but so far he's been nothing more than the Dolts next Dan Fouts.



You know Fouts is a HOF QB?

Can we at least judge QB performance independently of team performance?

[milkman]

Just watch this running game from here on out when we are giving Charles the majority of the carries I said this earlier in the year, that they believed we would be in this position earlier in the year and were "saving" Charles for this run and I think last week was the first taste of exactly that. I caught big hell for those comments.

I don't think they were saving Charles for this run.

Thomas Jones is running out of gas, and theresult is seeing Charles get more carries.

If Jones were still as effective now as he was earlier, we'd still be seeing the carries slpit in much the same way as they had been.

[cdcox]

Matt Cassel is a 2:1 career TD:INT guy

Michell was a career 1:1 guy

Im not 100% sold on Cassel yet, but any comparison to Mitchell isnt really relevant anymore.

Mitchell also only had one year with more than 20 td passes and in 2 1/2 years, Matt already has 2 with lesser talent to work with in his receiving core.

Lets give credit where its due and put away the full blown hatred till he earns it back, whadya say?

At the end of his 3rd year with significant playing time, Mitchell had 52 TDs to 32 INTS.

No hatred. Just objective realism.

[Saul Good]

How so?

Cassel has already had 2 good seasons for 2 different teams.

Comparing him to Steve Young is more appropriate. Both of them were backups to great QBs for several years, and both blossomed later on under the best QB gurus of their time. Both of them have had more success with their second teams than their first.

[philfree]

According to Pro Football reference here is the list of players that Scott Mitchell most resembles after 5 years of playing:

Matt Cassel, Joe Kapp, Ken Stabler, Stan Humphries, Brad Johnson, Bobby Douglass, Dave Krieg, Matt Hasselbeck, Derek Anderson, Gary Danielson

That is some illustrious company he is keeping there.



Elvis Grbac looked like he was having a break-through based on his 2000 season.

Steve Bono 1995

Jeff Hostetler parlayed a 3 game playoff run in 1990 into years and years of misplaced hope.

Let's just give it a little more time before we crown his ass.

That's just it. Nobody is crowning the guy they are just arguing with the un-crowners or no-crowners or upsidedown crowners! LOL

I luv you guys!

















Not!


PhilFree:arrow:

[dirk digler]

Matt Cassel is a 2:1 career TD:INT guy

Michell was a career 1:1 guy

Im not 100% sold on Cassel yet, but any comparison to Mitchell isnt really relevant anymore.

Mitchell also only had one year with more than 20 td passes and in 2 1/2 years, Matt already has 2 with lesser talent to work with in his receiving core.

Lets give credit where its due and put away the full blown hatred till he earns it back, whadya say?

I think it is relevant. Both came in for their injured HOF QB's and played well enough to get a nice contract with a different team to be the starting QB. Both had sub standard play in their first year and really played well the second year.

But Cassel won't come close yardage wise to Mitchell and this is a passing league now unlike back then + he had Barry fucking Sanders. In 95 Mitchell had 4338 yds, 32 TD's and 12 INT's and lead his team to the playoffs.

[BaltimoreChief]

Charlie Weis is the big difference here in matt's maturity like with Tom's in new england both qbs like a 3 step drop and find a big reciver aka moss. I will get crucifed but but weis is the key.

[milkman]

That's just it. Nobody is crowning the guy they are just arguing with the un-crowners or no-crowners or upsidedown crowners! LOL

I luv you guys!

















Not!


PhilFree:arrow:

The problem is that everyone that has argued that Cassel is the man for a year and a half are pointing to these two games and saying this is how he has been performing all along because his stats say he has been.

Everyone that has argued that Cassel is a liability is saying that these two games are not indicative of the Cassel that has been here prior.

One side.
"Admit he's good."

The other.
"We need to see more than two games."

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Me, I've seen some things from Cassel in the last two games that I hadn't seen from him in any game before, not in KC or New England.

I've seen a guy that has shown good footwork in dropping back, in the pocket, shown good pocket awareness and made good reads.

Things he's never done.

Those are things that I don't think that are just going to diasappear, and more than likely that he will improve on now that he's shown it.

I'm not ready to crown his ass, but I've seen enough to have actual hope that I was wrng about him, and I'm literally excited about that possibility.

[Saul Good]

Charlie Weis is the big difference here in matt's maturity like with Tom's in new england both qbs like a 3 step drop and find a big reciver aka moss. I will get crucifed but but weis is the key.

Yep. Isn't it weird that a guy who is on a new team, in his first year starting since high school, is playing for a team coming off of a 2-14 season with a payroll that is half of what the rest of the league's is and who doesn't even have an Offensive Coordinator wouldn't look like a HOFer? Normally, that's a recipe for success.

[Reaper16]

The problem is that everyone that has argued that Cassel is the man for a year and a half are pointing to these two games and saying this is how he has been performing all along because his stats say he has been.

Everyone that has argued that Cassel is a liability is saying that these two games are not indicative of the Cassel that has been here prior.

One side.
"Admit he's good."

The other.
"We need to see more than two games."

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Me, I've seen some things from Cassel in the last two games that I hadn't seen from him in any game before, not in KC or New England.

I've seen a guy that has shown good footwork in dropping back, in the pocket, shown good pocket awareness and made good reads.

Things he's never done.

Those are things that I don't think that are just going to diasappear, and more than likely that he will improve on now that he's shown it.

I'm not ready to crown his ass, but I've seen enough to have actual hope that I was wrng about him, and I'm literally excited about that possibility.
Every word of this post is Gospel.

[BossChief]

The problem is that everyone that has argued that Cassel is the man for a year and a half are pointing to these two games and saying this is how he has been performing all along because his stats say he has been.

Everyone that has argued that Cassel is a liability is saying that these two games are not indicative of the Cassel that has been here prior.

One side.
"Admit he's good."

The other.
"We need to see more than two games."

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Me, I've seen some things from Cassel in the last two games that I hadn't seen from him in any game before, not in KC or New England.

I've seen a guy that has shown good footwork in dropping back, in the pocket, shown good pocket awareness and made good reads.

Things he's never done.

Those are things that I don't think that are just going to diasappear, and more than likely that he will improve on now that he's shown it.

I'm not ready to crown his ass, but I've seen enough to have actual hope that I was wrng about him, and I'm literally excited about that possibility.

very good post

We should be taking a collection for Charlie Weis, he is the reason I dont think Cassel will regress from here on out to any large degree.



Heres an unmentioned part of this as well...Id like to add that Cassel is at the point now where he is trusting the parts around him. He is throwing to Bowe with fire and accuracy because he is trusting him to fill their part of the deal...he is continuing with his reads because he is trusting his protection instead of being "shellshocked" which was obviously the case last year...he is taking bigger drops and stepping up into a pocket while keeping his eyes on his reads because he trusts the guys on the interior of the line to do their job.

Trust is a huge issue with quarterbacks and its an area that the team around him is helping him with immensely. Its what you call "Rallying around a player" and hopefully that continues into the playoffs and he steps up in the bigger games between now and then.

[BaltimoreChief]

Yeah high school must mean the usc behind carson palmer and patriots bledsoe and brady. Weis still kept this kid through it all. It sounds like pioli was right but kc is relevant on week 11. I am personally happy

[BaltimoreChief]

is peyton, brady, vick or any 18-1 happy with there stat

[acesn8s]

What is the criteria for a quarterback to be considered good?

[chiefzilla1501]

What is the criteria for a quarterback to be considered good?

Strong arm
Pocket presence
Big penis

[BaltimoreChief]

matt;s stats are up for mvp right now and I'm the the first voter

Matt Cassel for mvp !

[Bugeater]

What is the criteria for a quarterback to be considered good?
He needs to not be named Matt Cassel.

[BaltimoreChief]

i would rather have him than joe ****ing flacoo. at least our team is building. charles is bether ray, bowe is bether than boldin and mason and ed reed is the new eric berry

[philfree]

"The problem is that everyone that has argued that Cassel is the man"

I don't think that was ever the argument.

The argument was just the converse. "Cassel isn't and will never be the man!"

That's my take on it anyway.

Like I said "Cassel has to keep improving".


PhilFree:arrow:

[BossChief]

If Cassel continues to listen to Charlie Weis ad do what he tells him to do, we havent seen his best game yet.

Far from it.

JMO

[cdcox]

That's just it. Nobody is crowning the guy they are just arguing with the un-crowners or no-crowners or upsidedown crowners!

I guess the MVP talk is not crowning?

[Bearcat]

I guess the MVP talk is not crowning?

Yeah, and he's no Scott Mitchell... much more of a Steve Young. LMAO

[BaltimoreChief]

All the Qbs before him make sense. Matt Cassel deserves an mvp vote and I'm it 7-4 sorry ass chiefs and i vote mvp.

[philfree]

I guess the MVP talk is not crowning?

So two peeps and one of them noobs said that? It's epidemic:eek::dom:


PhilFree:arrow:

[Bugeater]

i would rather have him than joe ****ing flacoo. at least our team is building. charles is bether ray, bowe is bether than boldin and mason and ed reed is the new eric berry
You bether stay in school.

[acesn8s]

I wouldn't say Cassel for MVP. Charles or Bowe maybe but not Cassel. If Cassel were MVP then all receivers would contribute, not just Bowe. Take Charles out of the lineup and those 15 yard first down runs would not exist leaving the Chiefs in the same boat as the Donks.

[acesn8s]

You bether stay in school.And that PSA comes from a GDN. Ouch.

[BaltimoreChief]

No Cassel it's all his partners. Who wins mvp phillip? behind us. Peyton? behind us. Tom he's all pats or Matt leads a small midwest town to a 7-4 record. I enjoy these weeks more than ravens pitts weeks. matt is coming his into his own and orton has a worst talented team.

[DaneMcCloud]

I wouldn't say Cassel for MVP. Charles or Bowe maybe but not Cassel. If Cassel were MVP then all receivers would contribute, not just Bowe. Take Charles out of the lineup and those 15 yard first down runs would not exist leaving the Chiefs in the same boat as the Donks.

Chambers is wilting away on the bench.

So is O'Connell and Copper. I really feel sorry for Jeremy Urban because I'm sure he was the answer to Cassel's prayers.

:rolleyes:

[SAUTO]

That's close, but not exactly how I view it.
But enough about my thoughts about it... I was curious as to yours, if you had any.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ROFL ok, my thoughts on the situation are well documented on this board. the defense got us killed in that game sully. blame it on anything you want...

[TheGuardian]

Yeah, and he's no Scott Mitchell... much more of a Steve Young. LMAO

No one ever said Steve Young. But anyone making Scott Mitchell comparisons is a fucking moron and obviously knows nothing about Scott Mitchell and how he played.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The problem is that everyone that has argued that Cassel is the man for a year and a half are pointing to these two games and saying this is how he has been performing all along because his stats say he has been.

Everyone that has argued that Cassel is a liability is saying that these two games are not indicative of the Cassel that has been here prior.

One side.
"Admit he's good."

The other.
"We need to see more than two games."

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Me, I've seen some things from Cassel in the last two games that I hadn't seen from him in any game before, not in KC or New England.

I've seen a guy that has shown good footwork in dropping back, in the pocket, shown good pocket awareness and made good reads.

Things he's never done.

Those are things that I don't think that are just going to diasappear, and more than likely that he will improve on now that he's shown it.

I'm not ready to crown his ass, but I've seen enough to have actual hope that I was wrng about him, and I'm literally excited about that possibility.

Excellent post, Milk.

[patteeu]

Cassel played HORRIBLE that game. How many points did Cassel "score" for the team that game? 29. Ok. How many points did Denver have before the Chiefs even put up one of those points? 35. Great game Cassel. Thanks for showing up.

Even a dedicated Cassel-basher like OTW admitted that he didn't play "awful" in the first half of that game, much less "HORRIBLE" over the entire game. You deserve some kind of trophy for achieving this level of wrong.

[patteeu]

Even if Cassel goes into San Diego, and plays poor, and we win the same haters will say "see, we won in spite of him".

If he plays well, and we lose, they will say "it doesn't matter. he didn't deliver a win."

If he plays well and we win, they will say the ground game or defense was the reason we won.

Face it, because I've seen it before. Cassel is going to be hated by some on this board NO MATTER WHAT. Even if he led this team to a SB, there are some poster that would give him ZERO credit. That's a fact. FACT. I've seen it before.

I think most of them will come around by then, but they'll still be acting like he deserved all the criticism and skepticism they aimed at him until the precise moment when they decided to finally flip flop and start applauding him. But if it happens, a few of us who were more open to the idea that Cassel might turn out to be good will always know that they were late to the party because their pride forced them to cling to their preconceived notions long past the time those notions could be supported by objective evidence.

[BigMeatballDave]

I think most of them will come around by then, but they'll still be acting like he deserved all the criticism and skepticism they aimed at him until the precise moment when they decided to finally flip flop and start applauding him. But if it happens, a few of us who were more open to the idea that Cassel might turn out to be good will always know that they were late to the party because their pride forced them to cling to their preconceived notions long past the time those notions could be supported by objective evidence.Seriously, dude? This is a stupid rationale. Sure, we are skeptic. But to say its flip-flopping is asinine. He played like ass last season. Not even you can deny that. Its not like Matt was a 23 yo 2nd yr player.

Its entirely possible for a player to suck and then all of a sudden seem to be getting it. DJ is a good example.

[BigMeatballDave]

Even a dedicated Cassel-basher like OTW admitted that he didn't play "awful" in the first half of that game, much less "HORRIBLE" over the entire game. You deserve some kind of trophy for achieving this level of wrong.He wasnt awful, but he was completely ineffective. Which isnt much different.

[patteeu]

Seriously, dude? This is a stupid rationale. Sure, we are skeptic. But to say its flip-flopping is asinine. He played like ass last season. Not even you can deny that. Its not like Matt was a 23 yo 2nd yr player.

Its entirely possible for a player to suck and then all of a sudden seem to be getting it. DJ is a good example.

If you switch from saying he sucks and he'll never be any good to saying he's good, that's a flip flop even if you don't want to admit it. Very few, if any, of the people you've been facepalming over the past several weeks were people who had faith that Matt Cassel was definitely going to turn into a great QB. Mostly they were people who just wanted to take a wait and see approach because there were sporadic signs of capability that people like you didn't allow yourselves to notice. You were unreceptive to the idea that Matt Cassel might be able to "all of a sudden seem to [get] it". The fact is that he's been gradually getting it and you were just too blinded by your bias (and the echo chorus of Cassel bashers here at CP) to notice.

[patteeu]

He wasnt awful, but he was completely ineffective. Which isnt much different.

Now look who deserves the facepalm.

[BigMeatballDave]

If you switch from saying he sucks and he'll never be any good to saying he's good, that's a flip flop even if you don't want to admit it. Very few, if any, of the people you've been facepalming over the past several weeks were people who had faith that Matt Cassel was definitely going to turn into a great QB. Mostly they were people who just wanted to take a wait and see approach because there were sporadic signs of capability that people like you didn't allow yourselves to notice. You were unreceptive to the idea that Matt Cassel might be able to "all of a sudden seem to [get] it". The fact is that he's been gradually getting it and you were just too blinded by your bias (and the echo chorus of Cassel bashers here at CP) to notice.So, no one is allow to change their mind and admit they may be wrong based on the new evidence that Cassel has provided? No one here expected Cassel to play the way he has the past 2 1/2 games. NO ONE. Not based on what we all saw prior. If they did, they're a fucking liar. What we all saw before was a game manager. All of a sudden he's shown the ability to be a play maker. You can spout your 'flop-flop' BS all you want. Its wrong.

While I LOVE the way Matt is playing now, 2 games against teams with losing records is not a large enough sample size for me to crown him.

Even Haley says the Chiefs are not a good team yet.

[BigMeatballDave]

Now look who deserves the facepalm.LMAO Do you know the difference between 'awful' and 'ineffective'?

[patteeu]

So, no one is allow to change their mind and admit they may be wrong based on the new evidence that Cassel has provided? No one here expected Cassel to play the way he has the past 2 1/2 games. NO ONE. Not based on what we all saw prior. If they did, they're a ****ing liar. What we all saw before was a game manager. All of a sudden he's shown the ability to be a play maker. You can spout your 'flop-flop' BS all you want. Its wrong.

While I LOVE the way Matt is playing now, 2 games against teams with losing records is not a large enough sample size for me to crown him.

Even Haley says the Chiefs are not a good team yet.

Of course you're allowed to flip flop, but it's still a flip flop. Sorry, BCD. I didn't paint you into this corner, you did.

[TheGuardian]

So, no one is allow to change their mind and admit they may be wrong based on the new evidence that Cassel has provided? No one here expected Cassel to play the way he has the past 2 1/2 games. NO ONE. Not based on what we all saw prior. If they did, they're a ****ing liar. What we all saw before was a game manager. All of a sudden he's shown the ability to be a play maker. You can spout your 'flop-flop' BS all you want. Its wrong.

While I LOVE the way Matt is playing now, 2 games against teams with losing records is not a large enough sample size for me to crown him.

Even Haley says the Chiefs are not a good team yet.

People are going to eat shit when they use absolute terms like "Cassel will NEVER be good" and things like that.

I personally don't think you get to flip flop at that point and say "oh I was wrong, and I'm glad to eat crow" and all of that bullshit when you use absolutes.

Fuck that. Find another board.

[BigMeatballDave]

Of course you're allowed to flip flop, but it's still a flip flop. Sorry, BCD. I didn't paint you into this corner, you did.LMAO This is ridiculous.

[BigMeatballDave]

People are going to eat shit when they use absolute terms like "Cassel will NEVER be good" and things like that.

I personally don't think you get to flip flop at that point and say "oh I was wrong, and I'm glad to eat crow" and all of that bullshit when you use absolutes.

Fuck that. Find another board.Fuck you, N00b. I've been here a lot longer than you.

I dont ever recall saying Matt will NEVER be good. I just said he sucked. Several times, in fact.

And if he shits the bed against Denver or in SD, the last 2 games mean exactly squat.

[patteeu]

People are going to eat shit when they use absolute terms like "Cassel will NEVER be good" and things like that.

I personally don't think you get to flip flop at that point and say "oh I was wrong, and I'm glad to eat crow" and all of that bullshit when you use absolutes.

They definitely deserve to have their noses rubbed in it. "Oops, I'm so glad I was wrong. *chuckle*" isn't good enough. But what we find is that they're better at dishing it out than taking it.

[Baby Lee]

Petty bunch of bitches, Chiefs fans these days.

[patteeu]

**** you, N00b. I've been here a lot longer than you.

I dont ever recall saying Matt will NEVER be good. I just said he sucked. Several times, in fact.

And if he shits the bed against Denver or in SD, the last 2 games mean exactly squat.

Sorry, dude. This took about 3 minutes. You've got an amazing number of Cassel-bashing posts. I'm sure there are plenty more gems hidden in that pile.

I get what you're saying. The line has issues. The only way Cassel is going to improve his play is if we had a line similar to 03-05. Matt will always be a liability. I hope he proves us wrong.

Edit: BTW, there's nothing wrong with admitting you're wrong about someone. As I've said before, I was inclined to be against the Matt Cassel trade because I didn't think he was that good, but I hoped that Pioli knew what he was doing since he had a much better view of Cassel than I did. Even as recently as a few weeks ago when you were calling people like me a nuthugger for pointing out the Cassel positives, I remained somewhat skeptical. To me it's a gradual process during which Cassel will either play himself into franchise status or he'll play himself off the team. Contrast that with the "I already know he'll always be a liability and anyone who disagrees is a Cassel nuthugger" posture that you chose to take.

[Hootie]

god OTWP is a fucking bitch man...

he really is

he has officially overtaken Hamas as the bigger fucking crybaby that can't enjoy a damn fine season....are you fucking kidding me guy?

why don't you pull a mecca and run away?

no one wants you around here anymore...

and GoChiefs you pull a shitty drafturbator impersonation...no one buys into your stupid ass act anymore either

[Hootie]

guys I just spent 12 hours compiling some board data and OTWP and his drafturbator gang has quoted a Milkman post and said "excellent post" 1,129 times since after the game on Sunday...

also...OTWP has taken down 14 loads of Milkman semen...which has saved him $35 this week alone at Subway...which is the equivalent of 7 12" oven roasted chicken breast sandwiches...which in turn could feed Tamba Hali's entire village over in Zimbabwe or wherever the fuck he came from!

so congrats 'bators...glad to see you guys are giving back!

and no GoChiefs, you're still not a part of their queer club...we know as soon as the Chiefs make the playoffs you'll flip flop right back over to the other side and tell everyone how great everything is and how you were a fan the whole time and yada yada yada yada ya...we get it dude, we get it

[The Bad Guy]

Bullshit I can't.

He was brought here to be a franchise QB, and to win a SB.

Just because he PLAYED awful last year doesn't mean I don't expect him to be what Pioli sold him to be.

And for the record, define: "win here, or anything like that."

I agree, he'll never be a franchise QB, even though we were sold that bill of goods.

If you mean win some regular season games, and maybe a playoff game here or there - I'm with you on the regular season games, don't agree with playoff games.

He's yet to have a single game in a Chiefs uniform that bears any evidence that he can carry a team, or make the big play at the crucial time in a big game.

That's what it takes to win in the playoffs - especially if we happen to make it this year, seeing as how we'd likely draw the Steelers, Jets or Ravens.

Do you think Cassel can beat those teams, knowing we'll likely gain under 100 rushing against them?

I don't.

If he beats SD in two weeks in a similar situation, I'd at least consider the possibility.

Who said he's here to be a franchise QB? I'm failing to see where Pioli said he was a franchise guy. The franchise guy term was used by people who hated the trade. He's a guy the Chiefs can win with, much like Trent Green. The problem you have, much like most on here, is that you only equate to winning titles and winning in general with a franchise QB and that's just silly.

I was never sold that bill of goods. I was sold on Cassel being a player the Chiefs could win with. Pioli said he was a special player but I never once heard him call him a franchise QB. That was the label put on by people here. He's never going to be that, but he's improving and making enormous strides that no one ever thought possible.

You also didn't see this team winning more than 6 games, or being able to stop the run this year so...

And for the record, win here or anything like that means we can be a contending team with Cassel. Just because our horse may not have the best jockey, doesn't mean they can't win the race.

If we draw the Steelers, Ravens or Jets, it's likely going to be at home because we will have to win the division to make the playoffs. I don't know what Jets team you've watched, but they almost lost to a ton of teams (see it's fun to play that game with the elite teams too). I'm confident in this team's ability to play at home.

I'm just happy to be playing meaningful games in December. It's been basically 7 years since this has happened. I don't consider 2006 to be a true competitive December considering we just backed into the playoffs.

I take nothing for granted anymore, because the last time I did that was 1997 thinking that the Chiefs would be in the playoffs most years.

[Hootie]

P.S. If the Chiefs played the Jets, Steelers or Ravens...I guarantee we'd rush for 100 yards against them...especially the overrated Ravens.

Also...

The Jets and Ravens don't scare me one damn bit...not at all. ESPECIALLY the fraudulent Jets...who sans the Bears, have been the luckiest team in the NFL this year...and at least the Bears are getting better as the season progresses...the Jets are going to have a meltdown...starting this week.

[Hootie]

and P.S.S.

OTWP is a fucking moron. Seriously...

Hands down...THE WORST "fan" on this board...

[The Bad Guy]

Oh and that 'feared' Ravens team almost lost in OT to the Bills at home. Since the Chiefs were docked by some on here for almost losing in OT to the Bills, it's only fair we address that as well.

The Jets, Ravens and Steelers all have issues.

[SAUTO]

Oh and that 'feared' Ravens team almost lost in OT to the Bills at home. Since the Chiefs were docked by some on here for almost losing in OT to the Bills, it's only fair we address that as well.

The Jets, Ravens and Steelers all have issues.

i would say the pats do too.

[Hootie]

it'll be one of the usual suspects that represents the AFC in the Super Bowl this year...Pats, Colts or Steelers.

[-King-]

guys I just spent 12 hours compiling some board data and OTWP and his drafturbator gang has quoted a Milkman post and said "excellent post" 1,129 times since after the game on Sunday...

also...OTWP has taken down 14 loads of Milkman semen...which has saved him $35 this week alone at Subway...which is the equivalent of 7 12" oven roasted chicken breast sandwiches...which in turn could feed Tamba Hali's entire village over in Zimbabwe or wherever the fuck he came from!

so congrats 'bators...glad to see you guys are giving back!

and no GoChiefs, you're still not a part of their queer club...we know as soon as the Chiefs make the playoffs you'll flip flop right back over to the other side and tell everyone how great everything is and how you were a fan the whole time and yada yada yada yada ya...we get it dude, we get it

FWIW, I think Milkman is one of the beat posters here. Unlike the drafturbators, he's object and has no problem admitting when he's wrong.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hootie]

FWIW, I think Milkman is one of the beat posters here. Unlike the drafturbators, he's object and has no problem admitting when he's wrong.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sure, I agree...

doesn't mean OTWP doesn't take the majority of Milk's loads all over his chest and face.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Oh and that 'feared' Ravens team almost lost in OT to the Bills at home. Since the Chiefs were docked by some on here for almost losing in OT to the Bills, it's only fair we address that as well.

The Jets, Ravens and Steelers all have issues.

They also lost to a bad Bengal team and Hillis and the Browns ran all over them and nearly came out with a W in Baltimore a week after the Chiefs won in Cleveland. But, I'm sure the Browns just started to turn in on that week :rolleyes:

[Dylan]

According to Pro Football reference here is the list of players that Scott Mitchell most resembles after 5 years of playing:

Matt Cassel, Joe Kapp, Ken Stabler, Stan Humphries, Brad Johnson, Bobby Douglass, Dave Krieg, Matt Hasselbeck, Derek Anderson, Gary Danielson

That is some illustrious company he is keeping there.



Elvis Grbac looked like he was having a break-through based on his 2000 season.

Steve Bono 1995

Jeff Hostetler parlayed a 3 game playoff run in 1990 into years and years of misplaced hope.
Let's just give it a little more time before we crown his ass.

Hostetler was drafted by the Giants in the third round of the 1984 NFL Draft, where he served as backup to Phil Simms. In his first five seasons, he played sparingly, rarely making an appearance.

However, on December 15, 1990, Simms broke his foot during a game against the Buffalo Bills. The following week, Hostetler, who had thrown only 109 passes in his career for the Giants, took over as the starting quarterback. The Giants won their final two regular seasons games and swept through the playoffs, defeating the Bills in Super Bowl XXV, 20–19. During the game, he completed 20 of 32 passes for 222 yards, with one touchdown and no interceptions...

I don't know what Hostetler did after that ... But what I do know, Simms recovered from his injury... LMAO

[BigMeatballDave]

Sorry, dude. This took about 3 minutes. You've got an amazing number of Cassel-bashing posts. I'm sure there are plenty more gems hidden in that pile.



Edit: BTW, there's nothing wrong with admitting you're wrong about someone. As I've said before, I was inclined to be against the Matt Cassel trade because I didn't think he was that good, but I hoped that Pioli knew what he was doing since he had a much better view of Cassel than I did. Even as recently as a few weeks ago when you were calling people like me a nuthugger for pointing out the Cassel positives, I remained somewhat skeptical. To me it's a gradual process during which Cassel will either play himself into franchise status or he'll play himself off the team. Contrast that with the "I already know he'll always be a liability and anyone who disagrees is a Cassel nuthugger" posture that you chose to take.I'm fully prepared to admit I'm wrong if he plays well in SD. I have no problem with that. He's playing better now than I ever thought he could.

[philfree]

They also lost to a bad Bengal team and Hillis and the Browns ran all over them and nearly came out with a W in Baltimore a week after the Chiefs won in Cleveland. But, I'm sure the Browns just started to turn in on that week :rolleyes:

No, no, no they played the freshmen against us and then they put the SRs in the next week.


PhilFree:arrow:

[Saul Good]

I like how the bashers trashed everyone who didn't want to run Cassel out of town and now they are starting to giggle and happily eat crow.

When those of us with an open mind were still waiting for him to turn the corner, we got trashed. Now that it looks like we were right to be patient, the bashers act like their shit doesn't stink.

[Saul Good]

What does a QB need to succeed in the NFL, and did Cassel have it last year?

Experience: it was his first full season as a starter since high school.

Coaching: he was playing for a rookie head coach who fired the OC in the preseason

Rushing attack: Larry Johnson

Receivers: KC led the NFL in drops

Defense: one of the worst in the league

Committed ownership: lowest payroll in the league

Surrounding cast: he took over a 2-14 team


He should have been the MVP, I guess.

[Saul Good]

LMAO Do you know the difference between 'awful' and 'ineffective'?

According to your post#661, "not much".

[stevieray]

What does a QB need to succeed in the NFL, and did Cassel have it last year?

Experience: it was his first full season as a starter since high school.

Coaching: he was playing for a rookie head coach who fired the OC in the preseason

Rushing attack: Larry Johnson

Receivers: KC led the NFL in drops

Defense: one of the worst in the league

Committed ownership: lowest payroll in the league

Surrounding cast: he took over a 2-14 team


He should have been the MVP, I guess.

wow. when you lay it out like that. it's damn impressive. remember though, that in the beginning, most of that hate was born out wanting another player instead...then it just went batshit stupid.

[beach tribe]

According to your post#661, "not much".

That is a quote.

[Saul Good]

Yeah, and he's no Scott Mitchell... much more of a Steve Young. LMAOnobody compared his play to Steve Young. I compared their situations, and they are very similar.

[patteeu]

I'm fully prepared to admit I'm wrong if he plays well in SD. I have no problem with that. He's playing better now than I ever thought he could.

That's fantastic. I look forward to your potential flip flop and hope that Cassel forces it upon you. :)

[BigMeatballDave]

According to your post#661, "not much".Thats right, there isnt much.

Ineffective is just not making good decisions and creating plays.
Awful is throwing INTs

Neither is going to get you many wins.

[BigMeatballDave]

That's fantastic. I look forward to your potential flip flop and hope that Cassel forces it upon you. :)Forces? :)

[BigMeatballDave]

What does a QB need to succeed in the NFL, and did Cassel have it last year?

Experience: it was his first full season as a starter since high school.

Coaching: he was playing for a rookie head coach who fired the OC in the preseason

Rushing attack: Larry Johnson

Receivers: KC led the NFL in drops

Defense: one of the worst in the league

Committed ownership: lowest payroll in the league

Surrounding cast: he took over a 2-14 team


He should have been the MVP, I guess.He started 15 games in NE.

[BigMeatballDave]

I like how the bashers trashed everyone who didn't want to run Cassel out of town and now they are starting to giggle and happily eat crow.

When those of us with an open mind were still waiting for him to turn the corner, we got trashed. Now that it looks like we were right to be patient, the bashers act like their shit doesn't stink.<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T3064dD-qGQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T3064dD-qGQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[patteeu]

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You're the same guy whining because I called what you're going to do if Matt Cassel plays well a flip flop, right?

[BigMeatballDave]

You're the same guy whining because I called what you're going to do if Matt Cassel plays well a flip flop, right?I'm not whining about anything. I've always maintained hope that Cassel would prove me wrong.

[patteeu]

I'm not whining about anything. I've always maintained hope that Cassel would prove me wrong.

Maybe, but you knew he would "always be a liability". Flip flop.

[Saul Good]

Guess whs picture is on the front page of Yahoo under the description "most underrated NFL players"...

[Saul Good]

Maybe, but you knew he would "always be a liability". Flip flop.

...and ripped anyone who suggested otherwise.

[BigMeatballDave]

Maybe, but you knew he would "always be a liability". Flip flop.I already said I'm prepared to admit I was wrong if his play continues.

This was a perfect opportunity to take the high road here. Epic Fail on your part.

I could be like Mecca. I'm here everyday, though, and I will continue to be.

[patteeu]

This was a perfect opportunity to take the high road here. Epic Fail on your part.

You were a good teacher in that regard. (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=236816)

FWIW, the low road is more fun so that's where I usually ride. It only looks like I'm on a high road sometimes because so many others spend so much of their time in the CP sewer system.

[BigMeatballDave]

You were a good teacher in that regard. (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=236816)

FWIW, the low road is more fun so that's where I usually ride. It only looks like I'm on a high road sometimes because so many others spend so much of their time in the CP sewer system.I posted that because I KNEW you guys would hang from his junk with the numbers he put up in that game.

[patteeu]

I posted that because I KNEW you guys would hang from his junk with the numbers he put up in that game.

You sure know a lot about taking the high road, don't you?

As it turns out, I'm glad you did it. What bad timing on your part, huh?

[SAUTO]

He started 15 games in NE.

in the nfl you play 16 games. :thumb:

[Frosty]

in the nfl you play 16 games. :thumb:

Cassel played all but the first quarter of that first game. 15.75 games is pretty damn close to a full season. A lot of starting QBs play less, due to an injury.

[Hammock Parties]

Imagine if Cassel throws 4 INT this week......the debate will rage.

DRAFTURBATORS: SEE? WE WERE RIGHT?!?!

CASSELBATORS: 22 TD AND 8 INT IS STILL GOOD YOU FUCKING MORONS!!!

DRAFTURBATORS: STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!

CASSELBATORS: THE CHIEFS ARE STILL IN FIRST PLACE YOU FUCKING MORONS!!!!

DRAFTURBATORS: NOT FOR LONG SAN DIEGO IS GOING TO OWN OUR FRANCHISE-KILLING SHIT MACHINE!

CASSELBATORS: LIKE THEY DID IN WEEK 1, RIGHT GUYS?

DRAFTURBATORS: 68 YARDS YOU FUCKERS!!!! WE BETTER START CROYLE OR CASSEL IS GOING TO PUT THE FINAL NAIL IN OUR COFFIN!!!

[Earthling]

in the nfl you play 16 games. :thumb:

More, with the right film crew. :p

[Hammock Parties]

I think it's hilarious that I'm suddenly being painted as one of the drafturbators.

My opinions have always been my own.

I was in love with Cassel when he was brought here, remember?

I've always loved Bowe and Hali.

[dirk digler]

What does a QB need to succeed in the NFL, and did Cassel have it last year?

Experience: it was his first full season as a starter since high school.

Coaching: he was playing for a rookie head coach who fired the OC in the preseason

Rushing attack: Larry Johnson

Receivers: KC led the NFL in drops

Defense: one of the worst in the league

Committed ownership: lowest payroll in the league

Surrounding cast: he took over a 2-14 team


He should have been the MVP, I guess.

The problem I had\have with Cassel is that up to 2 games ago he still looked liked the same guy from last year. No accuracy and shitty decisions etc etc

I hope he plays the next 5 games like he has the last 2 because if he plays like he did the first 8 games this team won't make the playoffs. It really is as simple as that.

[patteeu]

The problem I had\have with Cassel is that up to 2 games ago he still looked liked the same guy from last year. No accuracy and shitty decisions etc etc

I hope he plays the next 5 games like he has the last 2 because if he plays like he did the first 8 games this team won't make the playoffs. It really is as simple as that.

It's amazing that there are really people out there that actually think this has been a step function where Cassel went straight from pure suckitude to better-than-good instantly. This hasn't been an overnight transformation. There were plenty of signs of improvement over the entire season.

[Hammock Parties]

This hasn't been an overnight transformation. There were plenty of signs of improvement over the entire season.

The guy had been playing OK since the second game of the year.

The San Francisco through Jacksonville stretch he elevated his play from "complete suck" to "average."

Then he goes out and lays a complete turd against the Buffalo Bills.

Then we lose to the Raiders. How competent he was is up for debate but certainly he was no better than average.

Then he disappears in the first half against the Broncos.

Then suddenly we have this miraculous two-game stretch against two of the worst defenses in the league and he's throwing strikes like some unholy amalgam of Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

The guy "improved," yes. But it was followed by what, in my mind, was a three-game setback and then suddenly BAM he's a Pro Bowler?

It's been slightly jarring and definitely unexpected which is why you have such a hotly contested debate running the last two weeks.

This is what Cassel's trend looks like this year:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2a941w5.jpg

[SAUTO]

The guy had been playing OK since the second game of the year.

The San Francisco through Jacksonville stretch he elevated his play from "complete suck" to "average."

Then he goes out and lays a complete turd against the Buffalo Bills.

Then we lose to the Raiders. How competent he was is up for debate but certainly he was no better than average.

Then he disappears in the first half against the Broncos.

Then suddenly we have this miraculous two-game stretch against two of the worst defenses in the league and he's throwing strikes like some unholy amalgam of Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

The guy "improved," yes. But it was followed by what, in my mind, was a three-game setback and then suddenly BAM he's a Pro Bowler?

It's been slightly jarring and definitely unexpected which is why you have such a hotly contested debate running the last two weeks.

This is what Cassel's trend looks like this year:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2a941w5.jpg

i know the defenses we have played arent good at defending the pass but what does that have to do with cassel throwing balls in the PERFECT spots?


kinda like bradford. people said he was throwing to wide open guys so his accuracy would not transfer and was just an illusion. He's played that theory out of the room.


What's the difference in what cassel has done the last couple of weeks?

[dirk digler]

It's amazing that there are really people out there that actually think this has been a step function where Cassel went straight from pure suckitude to better-than-good instantly. This hasn't been an overnight transformation. There were plenty of signs of improvement over the entire season.

I am not so sure he went to better than good. Arizona and Seattle are ranked 28th and 29th in the league in D with Seattle ranked 30th in pass D giving up 286 pass yds a game.

Like I and others have said there is still 5 games left which to evaluate him and to see if he continues the trend up or the last 2 games were an aberration.

[dirk digler]

The guy had been playing OK since the second game of the year.

The San Francisco through Jacksonville stretch he elevated his play from "complete suck" to "average."

Then he goes out and lays a complete turd against the Buffalo Bills.

Then we lose to the Raiders. How competent he was is up for debate but certainly he was no better than average.

Then he disappears in the first half against the Broncos.

Then suddenly we have this miraculous two-game stretch against two of the worst defenses in the league and he's throwing strikes like some unholy amalgam of Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

The guy "improved," yes. But it was followed by what, in my mind, was a three-game setback and then suddenly BAM he's a Pro Bowler?

It's been slightly jarring and definitely unexpected which is why you have such a hotly contested debate running the last two weeks.

This is what Cassel's trend looks like this year:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2a941w5.jpg

Yep. You know one of the stats I find interesting is that 7 out of 10 games he has completed less than 20 completions. That says to me they aren't allowing him to throw the ball for whatever reason. People can come up with their own reasons for that

[kstater]

I think it's hilarious that I'm suddenly being painted as one of the drafturbators.

My opinions have always been my own.
i.

I'll sum up your opinions in picture form:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/fanaticcook/wind1a.jpg

[BigMeatballDave]

It's amazing that there are really people out there that actually think this has been a step function where Cassel went straight from pure suckitude to better-than-good instantly. This hasn't been an overnight transformation. There were plenty of signs of improvement over the entire season.Before the 2nd half of the Denver game, he was very inconsistent. You cant argue that.

Where we all agree is, something went off in Matt's head in Denver. For the past 10 quarters he's been doing things no one thought he was capable of.

[TheGuardian]

**** you, N00b. I've been here a lot longer than you.

I dont ever recall saying Matt will NEVER be good. I just said he sucked. Several times, in fact.

And if he shits the bed against Denver or in SD, the last 2 games mean exactly squat.

No, fuck you whore. You're one of the fucking morons who is saying that the San Diego game means EVERYTHING regardless of every other game we play. It's fucking retarded. Go die in a urine filled ditch.

[Extra Point]

No, **** you whore. You're one of the ****ing morons who is saying that the San Diego game means EVERYTHING regardless of every other game we play. It's ****ing retarded. Go die in a urine filled ditch.

And that's how well we play with others. In the same nursery.

[Hammock Parties]

Cassell has 22 TD and 4 INT...Josh McDaniels said only three other QBs in NFL history had hit those numbers after 11 games...who were the other three?

[BigMeatballDave]

No, fuck you whore. You're one of the fucking morons who is saying that the San Diego game means EVERYTHING regardless of every other game we play. It's fucking retarded. Go die in a urine filled ditch.ROFL

[chiefzilla1501]

The guy had been playing OK since the second game of the year.

The San Francisco through Jacksonville stretch he elevated his play from "complete suck" to "average."

Then he goes out and lays a complete turd against the Buffalo Bills.

Then we lose to the Raiders. How competent he was is up for debate but certainly he was no better than average.

Then he disappears in the first half against the Broncos.

Then suddenly we have this miraculous two-game stretch against two of the worst defenses in the league and he's throwing strikes like some unholy amalgam of Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

The guy "improved," yes. But it was followed by what, in my mind, was a three-game setback and then suddenly BAM he's a Pro Bowler?

It's been slightly jarring and definitely unexpected which is why you have such a hotly contested debate running the last two weeks.

This is what Cassel's trend looks like this year:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2a941w5.jpg

Actually, this chart is right on point.

[philfree]

Actually, this chart is right on point.

Yup and the overall trend is up. So Cassel's arrow is pointing up!


PhilFree:arrow:

[Hammock Parties]

Yup and the overall trend is up.

It would be up regardless of the last two games.

Because he started out the season playing like shit.

And this trend is also "up," but results in tears:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2prgw2v.jpg

[Extra Point]

Actually, this chart is right on point.

Which requires a loss to put it back in the trend line. Noone's going to stand for that shit.

Crennel needs to get the defense unmistakeable. That's all there is to it. Cassel has to drive, and the only way to do that, is for our O-Line to drive. All the teams are on the same team. Period.

[Extra Point]

It would be up regardless of the last two games.

Because he started out the season playing like shit.

And this trend is also "up," but results in tears:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2prgw2v.jpg

You failed statistics. That derived crock-of-a-graph is not regression, but depression! Even given such a small sample size, you have to pull it out!

[BossChief]

It's amazing that there are really people out there that actually think this has been a step function where Cassel went straight from pure suckitude to better-than-good instantly. This hasn't been an overnight transformation. There were plenty of signs of improvement over the entire season.

Cassel deserves a lot of credit for the way he has stuck with it and preservered and gotten to the point he has, hopefully that trend continues. With Weis as his position coach, I have more faith than some that will be the case.

While I agree that some here (myself included at times) deserve to have some of their opinions rubbed in a little more than from other topics due to the line drawn in the sand over this topic, at the same time, a lot of the guys here that have defended Cassel over the last year and a half have done so out of not a whole lot more than blind homerism.

It is what it is from both sides. Some of us hated not just Matt Cassel, but "the Matt Cassel situation" in that we are tired of picking up other teams backups that had a good year in place of the starter. That includes pretty much every quarterback we have pursued for the last 20 years.

Don't fail to acknowledge the few of us that have tried to remain objective through this either. I hated the trade since well before it was even completed because I felt the writing was on the wall and that it was eminent to happen...but that doesn't mean that a few of us have also never failed to give him praise when he actually deserved it.

Ive started at least 5 or 6 threads praising the guy and trying to start conversation, this was after being 100% full blown hater last year.

[Saul Good]

Just as an aside, in the Seattle game, Bowe had 170+ yards receiving, and Charles had 170+ yards rushing. That has never happened in the history if the NFL.

[BigMeatballDave]

Just as an aside, in the Denver game, Bowe had 170+ yards receiving, and Charles had 170+ yards rushing. That has never happened in the history if the NFL.Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but JC didnt have 170 yrds in Denver.

[BossChief]

I think you mean the Seattle game.

[Marcellus]

Cassell has 22 TD and 4 INT...Josh McDaniels said only three other QBs in NFL history had hit those numbers after 11 games...who were the other three?

Throwing out a guess here.

Brady, Manning, and Marino?

[Saul Good]

Throwing out a guess here.

Brady, Manning, and Marino?

Brady's done it this year.

[Hammock Parties]

Throwing out a guess here.

Brady, Manning, and Marino?

It's not Marino.

Brady and two other guys.

Damon Huard came close in 06....

[Marcellus]

It's not Marino.

Brady and two other guys.

Damon Huard came close in 06....

Is Gannon one?

Kurt Warner?

[Hammock Parties]

Is Gannon one?

Kurt Warner?

No to both, but Gannon came close.

21 TD, 4 INT after 11 weeks in 2001.

[TheGuardian]

Is Gannon one?

Kurt Warner?

Gannon went 21-4 over the first 11 games of the 2001 season.

Favre did it last year going 24-3 over the first 11.

[Hammock Parties]

OK so it's:

Cassel
Favre
Brady

annnnd?

[Saul Good]

No to both, but Gannon came close.

21 TD, 4 INT after 11 weeks in 2001.

Cassel actually reminds me a LOT of Rich Gannon.

[Marcellus]

Gannon went 21-4 over the first 11 games of the 2001 season.

Favre did it last year going 24-3 over the first 11.

Oh yea the miracle Favre season.

So Brady, Favre, Cassel and.......

[Saul Good]

Was it a Bronco?

[Buck]

OK so it's:

Cassel
Favre
Brady

annnnd?

Do they have to have less than 4 picks?

If not the answer is Peyton Manning.

[Hammock Parties]

I've got Montana for 22 and 4 through 10 games.

The other one is Brady 2007 I guess. 39/4

[loochy]

given such a small sample size, you have to pull it out!

That's what she said.

[BigMeatballDave]

Cassel actually reminds me a LOT of Rich Gannon.I think Gannon may have been a bit more mobile. Cassel has a stronger arm.

[Buck]

I've got Montana for 22 and 4 through 10 games.

The other one is Brady 2007 I guess. 39/4

Peyton Manning 26/4 though 8 games in 2004. (41/7 through 11 games)

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I think Gannon may have been a bit more mobile. Cassel has a stronger arm.

Gannon could thread a sideline-stretcher too. Stronger arm? I'd have to review the data.

[TheGuardian]

I've got Montana for 22 and 4 through 10 games.

The other one is Brady 2007 I guess. 39/4

What year for Montana???

[stevieray]

. For the past 10 quarters he's been doing things no one thought he was capable of.

I did.