Whitlock nails it, on why Brady is better than Manning.

[PunkinDrublic]

Brady, not Manning, is era's best QB

For those of us who have long been skeptical of the national media’s premature and unjustified anointment of Peyton Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time, our day is here.


Sunday, Manning continued to show his age (34), tossing four interceptions, including two pick-6s, in the Colts’ 38-35 loss to the Cowboys. At 6-6, there’s a good chance Indy won’t make the playoffs. Manning is having his worst season in nine years (24 TDs, 15 INTs).

His apologists blame his poor play on injuries to Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai, a leaky offensive line and the lack of a consistent running game.

To his credit, Peyton Manning blames Peyton Manning.

“I threw four interceptions to guys who were covered, and the ball shouldn’t have been thrown,” Manning told Indy reporters after the game. “I’ve either got to throw it away or throw it to somebody else. That’s basic football. The quarterback’s job is to protect the ball, and I’m not following through on that.”

If the media didn’t overhype Manning, he might be one of my all-time favorite players. He’s a stand-up guy and a marvelous player. He’s just not the best QB of all time. He’s not the best QB of this era.

Tom Brady is.

Monday night, when the Jets and Patriots square off in a blockbuster matchup, Brady has a chance to take control of the MVP race and demonstrate the intangible that makes him a better quarterback than Manning.

Brady is fearless. Two years after the knee injury I thought would undermine his pocket toughness, Brady is back to being Brady, a courageous, unflappable pocket passer.

He’s thrown 23 touchdown passes and just four interceptions. He’s leading the league in passer rating. A victory Monday night, and the Patriots will tie the Falcons for the league’s best record (10-2).



When it comes to evaluating Brady, it’s always about more than statistics. There are no stats for courage and leadership. They’re like obscenity. You know them when you see them. Look at the smooth way Brady and Bill Belichick ushered locker-room cancer Randy Moss out of New England. That’s leadership.

Standing in the pocket and taking a hit rather than nervously throwing into coverage is leadership, too. Manning has always thrown more interceptions (and a higher percentage of INTs) than Brady because Manning has always gone to greater lengths to avoid contact.

Playoff teams are adept at hitting the opposing quarterback. That explains the dramatic difference between Brady’s and Manning’s playoff records and performances (Brady three Super Bowls and Manning one). Three-four, exotic zone-blitz defenses get inside Manning’s head. They make him think and panic.

Let me repeat: I do not dislike Peyton Manning. He’s one of the 10 best QBs of all time. What bothers me is people think he’s better than Tom Brady. It’s just not true.

In five years, Big Ben Roethlisberger might move ahead of Manning on my list. Regardless of what Roger Goodell does to NFL rules, football is always going to be a game defined by toughness. Did you watch Big Ben Sunday night?

The Ravens broke his nose in the first quarter and Big Ben never blinked. He never thought about coming out of the game. And down the stretch, against the meanest defense in football, Big Ben fought off Terrell Suggs and avoided a sack on one play and threw the game-winning TD pass two plays later.

There is no stat for playing with a broken nose. There is no stat for fighting off Suggs and throwing the ball away. If the league kept those stats, we know Roethlisberger and Brady would rank higher on the chart than Manning.

Maybe after Monday night, if Brady survives Rex Ryan’s punishing defense and the Patriots win, I’ll win some more converts. Maybe a second MVP award for Brady will help him close the Manning gap.

And, yes, as of right now, Brady deserves the MVP award more than Michael Vick.

I said “as of right now.”

Vick is an incredible story. His 467 rushing yards and six rushing TDs add a dimension to his candidacy that Brady can’t match. But Vick hasn’t played enough and the Eagles are 8-4. I’m open to changing my mind over the last month of the season.

Right now it’s Brady, followed by Vick and Pittsburgh safety Troy Polamalu.

In terms of best QB of this era, it’s Brady, followed by Manning and Roethlisberger. I’m not open to changing my mind about that.

[The Franchise]

Andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd




Hootie.

[salame]

has sh1tlock wrote one about the chiefs since he left?

[salame]

I'm not going to read that but is the word swagger in there?

[PunkinDrublic]

Andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd




Hootie.


Hooties next intelligent football take will be his first. The dude completely dismisses Bradys Super Bowl wins while having every excuse in the world for Mannings lengthy record of postseason choke jobs.

[the Talking Can]

ROFL


hootie's going to get drunk and pee all over this thread, and himself, and his friends...










and whitlock is right

[siberian khatru]

:popcorn:

Hey, Hootie, want a bowl?

[Molitoth]

A valid argument, but I can't really disagree with it going either way.

If I was running a team, I really don't know if I would want Manning or Brady to be my QB.... can't go wrong with either.

[Sofa King]

Brady's not even the best QB of this season, Cassel is.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Whitlock's articles all suck, but I like this one/CP

[PunkinDrublic]

Whitlock's articles all suck, but I like this one/CP

It's undeniable that he has an axe to grind with the Chiefs but I still enjoy his columns and think he is a good writer.

[Sannyasi]

I agree with him that Brady > Manning. But Roethlisberger? Meh...

[kcxiv]

Here is my thing, Both great quarterbacks, but overall the Patriots have a way better team and they play team ball. Manning? shit, he pretty much has to do it and make stars out of players. Lets not mention Brady has always had a good line.

Its all subjective though. Cant go wrong, i just think Peyton is that team. IF he's not on any of them teams their team would NOT be good. NOT at all. WE already seen what happened when Brady went down. 11-5 still.

[DBOSHO]

Dont bother guys. He wont show up.

[DBOSHO]

Here is my thing, Both great quarterbacks, but overall the Patriots have a way better team and they play team ball. Manning? shit, he pretty much has to do it and make stars out of players. Lets not mention Brady has always had a good line.

Its all subjective though. Cant go wrong, i just think Peyton is that team. IF he's not on any of them teams their team would NOT be good. NOT at all. WE already seen what happened when Brady went down. 11-5 still.

The patriots have a way better team?

[salame]

I'm not going to read that but is the word swagger in there?

????
http://e-swagger.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/swagger-name-tag.jpg

[kcxiv]

The patriots have a way better team?

overall through the years they both have played i think so. Yes. they played better team ball. They had what 2 good pass rushers and that was it, they have always been pretty shitty on defense except for 1 year i think?

Patriots are just rock solid at every fucking position or at least have been all through the 2000's.

I am not saying Brady isnt a great player, he is. I just think that Peyton means more to the team then Brady does. Its all subjective though, cause you can argue this from many different angles.

[Skyy God]

Hootie = pissed chick in this photo.

http://talkpractice.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/how-bout-you-trade-for-matt-cassel-and-end-this/

[PunkinDrublic]

The patriots have a way better team?

Mannings a great QB when everything is going well but 9/10 times he falls apart when faced with a little adversity. It amazes me that people still defend his postseason body of work and choking in the clutch. They did the same thing with Brett Favre.

[DBOSHO]

Also, bradys been sacked 12 more times in his career, and hes played 3 less seasons than manning, but yeah, he had the superior line.

[Brock]

I doubt Brady would do any better with the Colts than Manning has.

[Pitt Gorilla]

overall through the years they both have played i think so. Yes. they played better team ball. They had what 2 good pass rushers and that was it, they have always been pretty shitty on defense except for 1 year i think?

Patriots are just rock solid at every ****ing position or at least have been all through the 2000's.

I am not saying Brady isnt a great player, he is. I just think that Peyton means more to the team then Brady does. Its all subjective though, cause you can argue this from many different angles.The Patriots have literally had to play some guys both ways due to lack of talent (at times). Their line has included some pretty shaky tackles and their WRs have included some Tucker-like players. They're a great organization, but it's not like they're running out the most-talented team week after week.

[PunkinDrublic]

I doubt Brady would do any better with the Colts than Manning has.

Manning had Marvin Harrison, and Edgeren James and they still choked it away. You Manning apologists are unbelieveable.

[DBOSHO]

When did the colts put someone else at quarterback not named manning in the last 10 years to prove the myth that they would be terrible without peyton? Did i miss it?

[DBOSHO]

Manning had Marvin Harrison, and Edgeren James and they still choked it away. You Manning apologists are unbelieveable.

Im sure hes talking about this season, but its still funny.

Shit, im a huge brady fan and i cant even name his recievers before welker and moss.

[Brock]

Manning had Marvin Harrison, and Edgeren James and they still choked it away. You Manning apologists are unbelieveable.

I'm not a Manning apologist. Tell me how Tom Brady would have the Colts playing any better than they are right now.

[Brock]

Im sure hes talking about this season, but its still funny.

Shit, im a huge brady fan and i cant even name his recievers before welker and moss.

You can name a lot of players off that top 3 defense Brady had when he was winning super bowls though, can't you?

[DBOSHO]

You can name a lot of players off that top 3 defense Brady had when he was winning super bowls though, can't you?

Most certainly, because they were on the field when brady marched them down the field at the end of the 3 biggest games of his life.

[Skyy God]

"Standing in the pocket and taking a hit rather than nervously throwing into coverage is leadership, too."

Stats, which are for chumps, bear this out. 17 INTs this year and only 13 sacks (compared to 15 for Brady). Manning is HOF-calibre at diving to avoid the big hit.

[PunkinDrublic]

I'm not a Manning apologist. Tell me how Tom Brady would have the Colts playing any better than they are right now.

By not throwing multiple pics week after week. Yeah some were tipped passes, but the bottom line is Manning does not have the mental toughness that Tom Brady has. Manning is a smart X's and O's guy and works hard studying defenses but does not respond well win things don't go as planned.

[Brock]

Most certainly, because they were on the field when brady marched them down the field at the end of the 3 biggest games of his life.

Because the defense keeping the score close didn't help. At all. Jesus Christ, I'm no fan of Manning, but he's always had to spin the scoreboard to keep his team even in it.

[Amnorix]

Here is my thing, Both great quarterbacks, but overall the Patriots have a way better team and they play team ball. Manning? shit, he pretty much has to do it and make stars out of players. Lets not mention Brady has always had a good line.

Its all subjective though. Cant go wrong, i just think Peyton is that team. IF he's not on any of them teams their team would NOT be good. NOT at all. WE already seen what happened when Brady went down. 11-5 still.

Have you ever compared the number of Pro Bowlers Manning has had to the number Brady has had.

And then you throw in 9 dome games per year (8 at Indy, one at Texans) plus an away game in perfect-weather-Jacksonville, and you've got Manning having 10/16 games in perfect conditions. Compared to Buffalo, Jets, New England, etc.

Lifetime QB Rating, despite dome adjustments:

Manning is like 95.6, and Brady is 95.1.

It's a joke. Manning is a stat machine, but I've never seen better leadership out of any athlete, and I've been lucky enough to see a number of championship teams across different sports and eras.

[Brock]

By not throwing multiple pics week after week. Yeah some were tipped passes, but the bottom line is Manning does not have the mental toughness that Tom Brady has. Manning is a smart X's and O's guy and works hard studying defenses but does not respond well win things don't go as planned.

Manning has thrown the ball nearly 200 more times this season than Brady has. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think Brady could do that with no run game support and no defense support and not have it all go to hell? Come on.

[SDChiefs]

Agreed except for Rothielessburger. He's a no.

[PunkinDrublic]

Manning has thrown the ball nearly 200 more times this season than Brady has. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think Brady could do that with no run game support and no defense support and not have it all go to hell? Come on.

Who are the stud running backs Brady has had? Manning has choked in the past when he has had a decent running game. This isn't an outlier year, when faced with adversity Peyton Manning falls apart, only this time it's the regular season and not in the playoffs.

[notorious]

Have you ever compared the number of Pro Bowlers Manning has had to the number Brady has had.

And then you throw in 9 dome games per year (8 at Indy, one at Texans) plus an away game in perfect-weather-Jacksonville, and you've got Manning having 10/16 games in perfect conditions. Compared to Buffalo, Jets, New England, etc.

Lifetime QB Rating, despite dome adjustments:

Manning is like 95.6, and Brady is 95.1.

It's a joke. Manning is a stat machine, but I've never seen better leadership out of any athlete, and I've been lucky enough to see a number of championship teams across different sports and eras.

Good Work.

I just heard the Pro Bowler stat on the radio a few weeks ago, and Indy had nearly double the amount of PB's on their team then Brady the last 10 years.

Manning is the regular season super hero, but Brady is the guy I want when it REALLY counts.

[DBOSHO]

Good Work.

I just heard the Pro Bowler stat on the radio a few weeks ago, and Indy had nearly double the amount of PB's on their team then Brady the last 10 years.

Manning is the regular season super hero, but Brady is the guy I want when it REALLY counts.

This. Everytime.

[PunkinDrublic]

Good Work.

I just heard the Pro Bowler stat on the radio a few weeks ago, and Indy had nearly double the amount of PB's on their team then Brady the last 10 years.

Manning is the regular season super hero, but Brady is the guy I want when it REALLY counts.

It just drives me crazy when people say it's debatable who the better QB is. No it's not!

[Red Dawg]

Here is my thing, Both great quarterbacks, but overall the Patriots have a way better team and they play team ball. Manning? shit, he pretty much has to do it and make stars out of players. Lets not mention Brady has always had a good line.

Its all subjective though. Cant go wrong, i just think Peyton is that team. IF he's not on any of them teams their team would NOT be good. NOT at all. WE already seen what happened when Brady went down. 11-5 still.

That's exactly the point. Brady has always had better coaches, players and a defense. Manning year after year must carry the Colts on his back. Mediocre talent everywhere and this year, no Clark , no Collie, no Adaii and the line is banged up using fill ins and of course the defense sucks. Manning deserves a pass this season. If Manning had the defenses throughout his career that Brady has had would he not have 3 rings. I think he would.

[BucEyedPea]

Brady, not Manning, is era's best QB


I don't know why anyone was ever in doubt!

[BucEyedPea]

That's exactly the point. Brady has always had better coaches, players and a defense. Manning year after year must carry the Colts on his back. Mediocre talent everywhere and this year, no Clark , no Collie, no Adaii and the line is banged up using fill ins and of course the defense sucks. Manning deserves a pass this season. If Manning had the defenses throughout his career that Brady has had would he not have 3 rings. I think he would.

Awe come on, before it was Manning who was surrounded by talent and not Brady.

[Amnorix]

Also, bradys been sacked 12 more times in his career, and hes played 3 less seasons than manning, but yeah, he had the superior line.

Saturday and Glenn together have more pro bowl selections than all the Patriots OLinemen in front of BRady have had.

[DBOSHO]

That's exactly the point. Brady has always had better coaches, players and a defense. Manning year after year must carry the Colts on his back. Mediocre talent everywhere and this year, no Clark , no Collie, no Adaii and the line is banged up using fill ins and of course the defense sucks. Manning deserves a pass this season. If Manning had the defenses throughout his career that Brady has had would he not have 3 rings. I think he would.

Yeah i dont know how manning got through all these years playing with bums like wayne, clark, harrison, addai, edgerrin, stokely, and an all pro line either. Must be tough.

[Brock]

Yeah, Bill Belichick isn't any better than Tony Dungy. Coaching doesn't matter.

[beach tribe]

Mannings a great QB when everything is going well but 9/10 times he falls apart when faced with a little adversity. It amazes me that people still defend his postseason body of work and choking in the clutch. They did the same thing with Brett Favre.

The comeback against Brady a few years ago was pretty damn awesome.

[Amnorix]

Does it matter to any of you that the Patriots are 9-2 and Brady is in the MVP discussion even though the Pats defense is giving up 24 points a game and has THE worst pass defense in the NFL. And they're giving up 50% third down completions to opponents. And even though brady is completing 66% of his passes, the Patriots combined opponents are completing 68% of theirs?

The Pats need to "spin the scoreboard" to keep up, but that's what Brady is doing.

And with the usual chipmunk attack that he's always had to use.

Marvin Harrison, Jeff Saturday, Tarik Glenn, Edgerring James, Joseph Addai, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Randy Moss (for 2.5 years, not counting the injured 2008 season), David Patten, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Matt Light, Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon (one great year, two average ones), BenJarvus Green Ellis, Kevin Faulk, Matt Light, Logan Mankins

Which package of complementary players would you take?

[DBOSHO]

Yeah, Bill Belichick isn't any better than Tony Dungy. Coaching doesn't matter.

The coaches run the routes now....damn

[Brock]

Does it matter to any of you that the Patriots are 9-2 and Brady is in the MVP discussion even though the Pats defense is giving up 24 points a game and has THE worst pass defense in the NFL. And they're giving up 50% third down completions to opponents. And even though brady is completing 66% of his passes, the Patriots combined opponents are completing 68% of theirs?

The Pats need to "spin the scoreboard" to keep up, but that's what Brady is doing.

And with the usual chipmunk attack that he's always had to use.

Marvin Harrison, Jeff Saturday, Tarik Glenn, Edgerring James, Joseph Addai, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Randy Moss (for 2.5 years, not counting the injured 2008 season), David Patten, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Matt Light, Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon (one great year, two average ones), BenJarvus Green Ellis, Kevin Faulk, Matt Light, Logan Mankins

Which package of complementary players would you take?

Either one, as long as Bill Belichick is coaching it.

[Brock]

The coaches run the routes now....damn

I'm not surprised the impact of coaching is lost on you.

[DBOSHO]

Does it matter to any of you that the Patriots are 9-2 and Brady is in the MVP discussion even though the Pats defense is giving up 24 points a game and has THE worst pass defense in the NFL. And they're giving up 50% third down completions to opponents. And even though brady is completing 66% of his passes, the Patriots combined opponents are completing 68% of theirs?

The Pats need to "spin the scoreboard" to keep up, but that's what Brady is doing.

And with the usual chipmunk attack that he's always had to use.

Marvin Harrison, Jeff Saturday, Tarik Glenn, Edgerring James, Joseph Addai, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Randy Moss (for 2.5 years, not counting the injured 2008 season), David Patten, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Matt Light, Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon (one great year, two average ones), BenJarvus Green Ellis, Kevin Faulk, Matt Light, Logan Mankins

Which package of complementary players would you take?

Stop polluting this thread with facts.

[Amnorix]

That's exactly the point. Brady has always had better coaches, players and a defense. Manning year after year must carry the Colts on his back. Mediocre talent everywhere and this year, no Clark , no Collie, no Adaii and the line is banged up using fill ins and of course the defense sucks. Manning deserves a pass this season. If Manning had the defenses throughout his career that Brady has had would he not have 3 rings. I think he would.

Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Mathis, Harrison, James, Wayne, Clark, Glenn, Saturday, etc. ad infinitum.

WTF are you smoking? Isn't Polian generally regarded as a top GM etc.?

Look, I'm not dissing the Patriots talent. But to pretend that it's been Manning and 10 cheerleaders is a f'n joke.

[Just Passin' By]

Manning has thrown the ball nearly 200 more times this season than Brady has. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think Brady could do that with no run game support and no defense support and not have it all go to hell? Come on.

So you haven't watched the Patriots playing football this season, or are you saying that Woodhead and BenJarvus Green-Ellis are a monster RB duo?

[Pitt Gorilla]

Either one, as long as Bill Belichick is coaching it.How many first rounders would Belichick be worth?

[DBOSHO]

I'm not surprised the impact of coaching is lost on you.

Yeah i know right?

[Red Dawg]

Have you ever compared the number of Pro Bowlers Manning has had to the number Brady has had.

And then you throw in 9 dome games per year (8 at Indy, one at Texans) plus an away game in perfect-weather-Jacksonville, and you've got Manning having 10/16 games in perfect conditions. Compared to Buffalo, Jets, New England, etc.

Lifetime QB Rating, despite dome adjustments:

Manning is like 95.6, and Brady is 95.1.

It's a joke. Manning is a stat machine, but I've never seen better leadership out of any athlete, and I've been lucky enough to see a number of championship teams across different sports and eras.

Have you ever compared the defenses? Or the offense ranking for both of their careers? Anybody that doesn't think Manning has been to carrying the Colts for a decade is just hater. He has never had a team that can pick it up when he's down. Brady is [playing better thatn ever and I jiz my pants if he was our QB but Manning has had more pressure on him his whole career to win with his arm. Brady has not. The pressure is all on the Bill and he takes alot of the credit. The Colts lose and when does their coach get blamed? Manning takes the heat for whole team. Defense and all.

[DBOSHO]

Mannings defense has been terrible, even though theyve won the most games out of any ballclub the past decade.

[Brock]

So you haven't watched the Patriots playing football this season, or are you saying that Woodhead and BenJarvus Green-Ellis are a monster RB duo?

Oh, sorry. Is it the Colts or the Patriots that are ranked dead last in rushing? I forget.

[Amnorix]

Either one, as long as Bill Belichick is coaching it.

I think Bill Belichick is THE greatest head coach in NFL history. I think he is one of the best GMs in history, and absolutely the right guy for the salary cap / free agency era.

That said, Dungy is no slouch, as he proved in both Tampa and Indy.

[DBOSHO]

The patriots total defense is ranked last. Colts is 18th. Talk about putting a team on your back.

[Amnorix]

Have you ever compared the defenses? Or the offense ranking for both of their careers? Anybody that doesn't think Manning has been to carrying the Colts for a decade is just hater. He has never had a team that can pick it up when he's down. Brady is [playing better thatn ever and I jiz my pants if he was our QB but Manning has had more pressure on him his whole career to win with his arm. Brady has not. The pressure is all on the Bill and he takes alot of the credit. The Colts lose and when does their coach get blamed? Manning takes the heat for whole team. Defense and all.

Look, Manning is a great QB. I don't dispute that.

But to pretend that it's Manning and the 10 cheerleaders, while Brady has had Walter Payton and Jerry Rice his whole career, with the Steel Curtain on defense, is a freaking joke.

[Brock]

I think Bill Belichick is THE greatest head coach in NFL history. I think he is one of the best GMs in history, and absolutely the right guy for the salary cap / free agency era.

That said, Dungy is no slouch, as he proved in both Tampa and Indy.

What exactly did Dungy prove? That he was Marty Schottenheimer with a great QB?

[Amnorix]

Defensive Stats:

Yards allowed: Patriots 32nd. Colts 18th

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Points per game -- both teams tied for 11th worst at 24.2 points allowed.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=null&archive=false&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-n=1&season=2010&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

[Amnorix]

What exactly did Dungy prove? That he was Marty Schottenheimer with a great QB?

Two can play that game. How did Belichick do without Brady?

[B_Ambuehl]

Consider that the casshole played in Brady's offense and was able to put up a rating of ~90+ and it's easy to argue Brady is a product of the system. Brady plays in the same offense Orton plays in with a superior running game and great offensive line and look at the type of numbers Orton has put up compared to what he did in chicago. Brady benefits from a GREAT offensive line and multiple spread sets which favor high percentage passes. In most other offenses he's a slightly above average QB IMO.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Two can play that game. How did Belichick do without Brady?He was once, literally, a place-holder for the Tuna.

[DBOSHO]

Consider that the casshole played in Brady's offense and was able to put up a rating of ~90+ and it's easy to argue Brady is a product of the system. Brady plays in the same offense Orton plays in with a superior running game and great offensive line and look at the type of numbers Orton has put up compared to what he did in chicago. Brady benefits from a GREAT offensive line and multiple spread sets which favor high percentage passes. In most other offenses he's a slightly above average QB IMO.

Ill point it out again.

Brady has been sacked more times in 3 less seasons than manning. How is that a great line?

And once again, how many times has a qb not named manning started a game to say definitely "the colts would be shit without manning"?

[Just Passin' By]

Have you ever compared the defenses? Or the offense ranking for both of their careers? Anybody that doesn't think Manning has been to carrying the Colts for a decade is just hater. He has never had a team that can pick it up when he's down. Brady is [playing better thatn ever and I jiz my pants if he was our QB but Manning has had more pressure on him his whole career to win with his arm. Brady has not. The pressure is all on the Bill and he takes alot of the credit. The Colts lose and when does their coach get blamed? Manning takes the heat for whole team. Defense and all.


Faulk/James - Brady had one year of Dillon still running well. Manning had Faulk in 1998 and James from 1999-2005.

Harrison/Wayne - Brady had 2 seasons of Moss, and has had Welker for 2+. Manning had Harrison from 1998-2006 and has had Wayne since 2001, meaning there was a 5 year overlap. (Note, I'm not counting Moss this year, and I'm not counting Harrison in 2007, as both were clearly not the same players they had been)

Clark - Brady had Graham as a great blocker, but Manning's had Clark since 2003. Prior to Clark, he had guys like Pollard and Dilger, who certainly weren't any worse than what Brady was throwing to.

So, yeah, just looking at the offense.... Manning has clearly had the better skill players over the years. It's not even close.

Colts Defensive rankings, points, starting in 2002:

7
20
19
2
23
1
7
8
21

Have the Patriots been better? Sure, but it's not as insane a difference as you seem to be implying. The Colts have been among the top 10 scoring defenses 5 years out of 9, compared to 6 of 9 for the Patriots.


The notion that Manning's had to carry his team and Brady hasn't is just media bullshit.

[Saccopoo]

Either one, as long as Bill Belichick is coaching it.

Wait...which Belichick? The guy who was a 45% winner for the Browns over five seasons, or the guy who suddenly became Vince Lombardi, Chuck Knoll, and Bill Walsh all rolled into one after Brady took the field full time?

Or the guy who hasn't won a Super Bowl without the services of Crennel or Weis but still has Brady (and arguably a better supporting cast of players)?

It's like saying Shanahan is a "mastermind." The guy is a sub-mediocre coach who happened to fall into the most wonderful of situations with John Elway at quarterback and Alex Gibbs coaching the offensive line. He's done nothing since Elway retired.

[Amnorix]

Consider that the casshole played in Brady's offense and was able to put up a rating of ~90+ and it's easy to argue Brady is a product of the system. Brady plays in the same offense Orton plays in with a superior running game and great offensive line and look at the type of numbers Orton has put up compared to what he did in chicago. Brady benefits from a GREAT offensive line and multiple spread sets which favor high percentage passes. In most other offenses he's a slightly above average QB IMO.

:rolleyes:

[Brock]

Wait...which Belichick? The guy who was a 45% winner for the Browns over five seasons, or the guy who suddenly became Vince Lombardi, Chuck Knoll, and Bill Walsh all rolled into one after Brady took the field full time?.

The Cleveland Browns has been a coaching graveyard for about 30 years. I'm not going to knock the guy because he only won one playoff game there.

[Just Passin' By]

Consider that the casshole played in Brady's offense and was able to put up a rating of ~90+ and it's easy to argue Brady is a product of the system. Brady plays in the same offense Orton plays in with a superior running game and great offensive line and look at the type of numbers Orton has put up compared to what he did in chicago. Brady benefits from a GREAT offensive line and multiple spread sets which favor high percentage passes. In most other offenses he's a slightly above average QB IMO.

Cassel took over for Brady and won 5 fewer games against an easier schedule. As for the 90+ rating, Cassel's at 90+ rating right now, and currently has his team playing .667 ball. You're underrating both quarterbacks at the same time.

[eazyb81]

Why was Cassel not in his list of MVP candidates???

[Red Dawg]

Saturday and Glenn together have more pro bowl selections than all the Patriots OLinemen in front of BRady have had.

The PB? That's your response? It's a popularity contest. Nothing else. All the way around Tom has had better teams. Clearly better defenses and better running games. He's great but Bill gets alot of the credit and Manning gets the blame if they lose. Not the coaches or that shit defense of the last 10 years. Him. Aynone that thinks he doesn't carry the Colts every year is just a hater. He's down this year but he's better than Brady.

[Saccopoo]

Why was Cassel not in his list of MVP candidates???

Probably because he sucks.

[ChiefsCountry]

Agreed except for Rothielessburger. He's a no.

Bullshit. Rothlisberger is the 3rd best behind Brady and Manning. Hell I bet he might passes both of them by the time its all said and done.

[BigMeatballDave]

Brady vs. Manning? This is new.

[Amnorix]

The PB? That's your response? It's a popularity contest. Nothing else. All the way around Tom has had better teams. Clearly better defenses and better running games. He's great but Bill gets alot of the credit and Manning gets the blame if they lose. Not the coaches or that shit defense of the last 10 years. Him. Aynone that thinks he doesn't carry the Colts every year is just a hater. He's down this year but he's better than Brady.

Better running games? Honestly? :rolleyes:


Ok, ignore the 2 seasons of Randy Moss, and tell me which Patriots WRs/TEs were better than ANY of Marvin Harrison, REggie Wayne or Dallas Clark, each of whom Manning has had for MANY years, and some of them all at the same time.

Ignore ONE season of Corey Dillon and tell me which Patriots RB was better than Joseph Addai much less Edgerrin James?

[Amnorix]

Bullshit. Rothlisberger is the 3rd best behind Brady and Manning. Hell I bet he might passes both of them by the time its all said and done.

Not just no, hell no.

[Useful Idiot]

Whitlock is this era's worst writer. Not Chomsky.

[notorious]

Colts Defensive rankings, points, starting in 2002:

7
20
19
2
23
1
7
8
21

Have the Patriots been better? Sure, but it's not as insane a difference as you seem to be implying. The Colts have been among the top 10 scoring defenses 5 years out of 9, compared to 6 of 9 for the Patriots.


.



Facts have NO place in this discussion. I would rather believe someone that makes shit up and/or pulls bullshit out of their ass.

[DBOSHO]

Sports nation said peyton is the only quarterback to throw 11 picks in 3 games lmao

[The Franchise]

Any discussion of Peyton Manning on this board is going to be biased because of the amount of hate that 95% of Chiefs fans have for him.

[Amnorix]

Sports nation said peyton is the only quarterback to throw 11 picks in 3 games lmao

Only a truly great player willing to take incredible risks to push his team to victory against all odds and in the face of incredible adversity could possibly throw so many interceptions and pick sixes. This is obviously nothing more than yet another testament to his greatness. Brady, Montana, Marino and Unitas, together, should think themselves blessed if they could so much as carry Manning's jock, socks and mouthpiece.

/Hootie.

[The Franchise]

Because you aren't biased either.

[Amnorix]

Because you aren't biased either.


I am totally biased, but there is a fundamental difference. I say that Tom Brady, perhaps the greatest QB in NFL history, is a better QB than Peyton Manning, who is clearly one of the greatest QBs in NFL history.

Meanwhile, some people around here say things like:

Brady benefits from a GREAT offensive line and multiple spread sets which favor high percentage passes. In most other offenses he's a slightly above average QB IMO.

[Just Passin' By]

I am totally biased, but there is a fundamental difference. I say that Tom Brady, perhaps the greatest QB in NFL history, is a better QB than Peyton Manning, who is clearly one of the greatest QBs in NFL history.

Meanwhile, some people around here say things like...

What's really funny about that argument is that Brady has played, and succeeded, in multiple systems/styles, while Manning has been playing the same timing-based system since at least as far back as 2002.

[Dr. Van Halen]

If given the choice, I would take the Patriots coach and the Colts QB.

[Amnorix]

So, as you'll see from my next post, the argument is getting close to dead. Not only does Brady win more, he has a better passer rating (career) under nearly any conceivable circumstances. Manning's lifetime passer rating is 0.1 points better, but only because he plays in a dome 9/16 games/year, while Brady plays in one, well, once or twice a year or whatever.

Note that the next post was lifted whole cloth off the webiste I will link to.

[Amnorix]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/707296-new-brady-manning-stats-brady-within-0-1-points-manning-career-passer-rating.html#post2378264

Wow, now that Brady is coming up on the golden boy's passer rating, what are the haters going to say? I'm pretty sure I already see it coming- it's about longevity stats- total career yards; it's about throwing interception ala Favre and sacrificing personal stats to have a chance a winning; it's about making motions at the line of scrimmage; it's about calling out your offensive line; it's about your wide receivers dropping balls; it's about Reggie Wayne running the wrong route in the Super Bowl; it's about the defense; it's about the coaching staff, etc. etc. etc.

Frankly, I'm sick of the obvious fact that Brady is a better quarterback when it matters most, which is obvious and couldn't be by a greater margin. I'm sick of hearing that wins and championships are a team effort, used to belittle Brady against the propaganda machines; this argument is not only fallacious, but also irrelevant. Brady is the better quarterback, period. He is better by most statistical measures in nearly every situation.

I thought I would post a few interesting stats. I would argue that statistically, Brady is currently the best quarterback who ever played the game. He is pretty far better than Manning, if you break down the stats on an even playing field, rather than the longevity numbers, and Manning is supposedly the benchmark.

Passer Rating
Manning- 94.8
Brady- 94.7

Passer Rating Breakdown- Why Brady is better

Brady's stats are still better than Manning's, since interceptions have the highest correlation to winning %. Let's see what the stats would produce with both quarterbacks throwing 500 times in a season:

Brady- 318-500, 3700 yards, 27.5 TDs, 11 INTs
Manning- 325-500, 3800 yards, 27.5 TDs 14 INTs

The question would become, would you sacrifice 100 passing yards and seven completions for three less interceptions? I think the answer is obvious. Three interceptions over a full season would likely translate to an additional loss, if not two.

TD:INT Ratio

Brady- 2.45:1
Manning- 1.99:1

If you don't think this is a big discrepancy, do some research. This is basically the difference between Manning and an average quarterback on the other end.

Split Situations

This should prove beyond any doubt that Brady is better, and this doesn't even include the clutch factor.

Indoors:
Brady- 103.1
Manning- 98.6

Outdoors:
Brady- 93.8
Manning- 90.7

Cold (24-40 degrees):
Brady- 94.5
Manning- 85.0

Mild (41-60 degrees):
Brady- 95.7
Manning- 85.7

Rain
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 83.8

Wind
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 82.6


Defense

Here's how the Patriots and Colts have stacked up since the rivalry really began in 2001. I'm putting which team had the better defense based on points allowed.

'10- Colts
'09- Patriots
'08- Colts
'07- Colts (led NFL in fewest points allowed)
'06- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'05- Colts (2nd in NFL)
'04- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'03- Patriots (1st in NFL)
'02- Colts
'01- Patriots

Final Result- In ten seasons, the Colts defense has allowed fewer points five times. The Colts have had a top-2 scoring defense twice, while the Patriots have three times.

Pro Bowls/ First Round Draft Choices

Here's a list of pro bowl players that each quarterback has had at his disposal for skill positions.

Brady's Pro Bowl Players- Randy Moss* (2), Wes Welker (2), Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, total of 6.

Manning's Pro Bowl Players- Marvin Harrison* (8), Edgerrin James* (4), Reggie Wayne* (4), Marshall Faulk*, Dallas Clark*, Joseph Addai*, total of 19.

*First-round pick

[Brock]

I had to chuckle last night after reading how Patriot fans were poor mouthing their pass defense and running game throughout this thread. "Yeah man, Brady has had to carry this team on his back with no help". LMAO

[Amnorix]

I had to chuckle last night after reading how Patriot fans were poor mouthing their pass defense and running game throughout this thread. "Yeah man, Brady has had to carry this team on his back with no help". LMAO

I know you're enjoying beating this drum, but even after last night the Patriots are somewhere between mediore and horribe in a number of categories defensively. And while someone else may ahve done so, I never said their running game sucked. It's fine. Not great, but fine.

The one thing they clearly are EXTREMELY good at is turnovers, which can certainly save a defense that is otherwise struggling.


http://espn.go.com/blog/BostonNew-England-Patriots/post/_/id/4689123/stat-check-red-zone-offense-rises

Points allowed
This week: Tied-18th (22.4 avg.)
Last week: 22nd (24.1 avg.)

Third-down defense
This week: 32nd (78 of 160, 48.8 percent)
Last week: 32nd (75 of 148, 50.7 percent)

Turnover differential
This week: 2nd (Plus-14 -- 23 take-aways, 9 give-aways)
Last week: Tied-2nd (Plus-11 -- 20 take-aways, 9 give-aways)

Red-zone defense (opponents' TD percentage)
This week: 24th (24 TDs in 40 trips, 60 percent)
Last week: 27th(24 TDs in 38 trips, 63.2 percent)

[DaneMcCloud]

Why was Cassel not in his list of MVP candidates???

Because the Chiefs success this season hasn't been dependent solely on the play of Matt Cassel. It's been a team effort.

[DBOSHO]

I had to chuckle last night after reading how Patriot fans were poor mouthing their pass defense and running game throughout this thread. "Yeah man, Brady has had to carry this team on his back with no help". LMAO

Their rush offense is middle of the road and pass defense is 31st. 1 game against a flustered 2nd year qb who struggled against average teams doesnt prove a whole lot.

[tk13]

If you had one drive to win a game, you'd have to take Brady.

But that said, you have to give Manning credit for what he does. It doesn't mean he has to be the single best, but I just don't think anyone else plays the QB like he does. I don't know if there's ever been a QB who strategically leads an offense the way Manning does. But he's going to be haunted by the mistakes he's made. And even the year the Colts won the Super Bowl... they weren't really an offensive juggernaut in the playoffs. Their defense really played well. Manning didn't really have a great playoff run except for that 2nd half against New England. He had a chance to really cement himself last year but then he threw it away with an INT.

[Consistent1]

If the Pats keep rolling like last night and win another Superbowl after the Moss garbage this year, this argument is OVER IMO. Oh yeah....almost forgot, the Chiefs are going to win the big one this year!

[Red Dawg]

Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Mathis, Harrison, James, Wayne, Clark, Glenn, Saturday, etc. ad infinitum.

WTF are you smoking? Isn't Polian generally regarded as a top GM etc.?

Look, I'm not dissing the Patriots talent. But to pretend that it's been Manning and 10 cheerleaders is a f'n joke.

Freeney and Sanders? Freeney had one sack when the year they won and is not some dominator. Bob is never healthy. Are you honestly going to say that the total team, meaning defense has been equal? Not even close. The Pats ran the ball and played defense to win three SB's. Brady didn't have to carry anything. He played good but he was not out there to win the game with his arm despite the few times they need FG's. He's alot better now but Manning was a bad ass those years and now but and he still has no defense or running game. I'm not knocking Brady. He not overrated but he's had the better team to rely on.

[milkman]

That's exactly the point. Brady has always had better coaches, players and a defense. Manning year after year must carry the Colts on his back. Mediocre talent everywhere and this year, no Clark , no Collie, no Adaii and the line is banged up using fill ins and of course the defense sucks. Manning deserves a pass this season. If Manning had the defenses throughout his career that Brady has had would he not have 3 rings. I think he would.

I'm sorry, but the fact that Manning's struggles this year are the result of so many injuries puts to bed the myth that Manning has always played with mediocre talent.

Manning has almost always had a better O-Line, RBs, and WRs than Brady, and the Colt defense hasn't been nearly the anchor for that team that many have tried to paint it.

Yeah, Bill Belichick isn't any better than Tony Dungy. Coaching doesn't matter.

Belichick is light years a head of Dungy as a head coach, and had he been coaching the Colts, I guarantee you he'd be in charge of that team, and he would've taken the ball out of Manning's hands to some extent and created a better balance.

The PB? That's your response? It's a popularity contest. Nothing else. All the way around Tom has had better teams. Clearly better defenses and better running games. He's great but Bill gets alot of the credit and Manning gets the blame if they lose. Not the coaches or that shit defense of the last 10 years. Him. Aynone that thinks he doesn't carry the Colts every year is just a hater. He's down this year but he's better than Brady.

Manning carries that team more, except of course when his running game and defense carried him to the SB against the Bears.

But that Colt team has tons of talent over the years, especially at receiver and RB, not to mention quite probably the most consistent and one of the best pass rushers in the league in the last ten years.

And also not to mention Bob Sanders, who was the most valuable player in their SB run in '06.

Jason Whitlock is saying the same thing about Manning that I've said for years.

[Brock]

Belichick is light years a head of Dungy as a head coach, and had he been coaching the Colts, I guarantee you he'd be in charge of that team, and he would've taken the ball out of Manning's hands to some extent and created a better balance.
.

So back to my original question: Would Tom Brady have done any better if he were a Colt than Manning has?

[milkman]

So back to my original question: Would Tom Brady have done any better if he were a Colt than Manning has?

I think a healthy Brady wins that SB last year with the Colts.

I also don't think that Brady crumbles to the pressure that the Pats and Chargers brought in palyoff games earlier in the decade, so yeah, I do think he does better.

He may not have won as many regular season games, but he wins more playoff games.

[kcxiv]

like i said before, Cassel lead that team to a fucking 11-5 record. YOu take Manning away from any of his teams in the 2000's and there is no fucking way that a no named never started in college back up takes the Colts to a 11-5 record.

Shit is not going to happen.

[PunkinDrublic]

I think a healthy Brady wins that SB last year with the Colts.

I also don't think that Brady crumbles to the pressure that the Pats and Chargers brought in palyoff games earlier in the decade, so yeah, I do think he does better.

He may not have won as many regular season games, but he wins more playoff games.

I don't think Manning does as well with the average to above average talent that Brady has had to work with. Brady is just one of the most natural born leaders that I've ever seen in sports. It fires me up at home watching him pace the sideline trying to encourage his teammates. I love the fact that he's not afraid to talk a little shit. He admitted he never watched HBO hard knocks because he hates the Jets and said the Ravens talk a lot for a team that seldom defeats them. To me he's a bit of a throwback.

[milkman]

like i said before, Cassel lead that team to a ****ing 11-5 record. YOu take Manning away from any of his teams in the 2000's and there is no ****ing way that a no named never started in college back up takes the Colts to a 11-5 record.

Shit is not going to happen.

That's nothing more than speculation.

I would speculate that the Colts change their philosophy and put more on Edge James' plate and ride him to 9 or 10 wins.

Because of Manning, Edge is one of the more underrated great players of the last 20 years.

[Amnorix]

Freeney and Sanders? Freeney had one sack when the year they won and is not some dominator. Bob is never healthy. Are you honestly going to say that the total team, meaning defense has been equal? Not even close. The Pats ran the ball and played defense to win three SB's. Brady didn't have to carry anything. He played good but he was not out there to win the game with his arm despite the few times they need FG's. He's alot better now but Manning was a bad ass those years and now but and he still has no defense or running game. I'm not knocking Brady. He not overrated but he's had the better team to rely on.

The '03 and '04 Pats defenses were better than anything the Colts have fielded on defense in the Manning era, IMHO, though their defense the year they won the SB was absurd in the playoffs (after being completely pathetic during the regular season).

But as you can see from my prior post, the Colts in the last 10 years have had better points per game defenses than the Pats five times.

And there is no argument that Manning didn't have better weapons around him most of those years. Or that he wasn't in a dome for 9/16 games with a 10th game in Jax, while Brady was in the crappy weather in NE. But Brady's lifetime passer rating and Manning's are identical.

So no matter how you slice it, Brady is better. Other than just sheer volume numbers, Brady has Manning beat in both wins and in the stats.

[Amnorix]

like i said before, Cassel lead that team to a fucking 11-5 record. YOu take Manning away from any of his teams in the 2000's and there is no fucking way that a no named never started in college back up takes the Colts to a 11-5 record.

Shit is not going to happen.

Five games WORSE than what Brady did. So if Brady had fielded a 12-4 team, it might've been a 7-9 team with Cassel? THAT is what you're crowing about?

Oh, and the 2007 Pats faced AFC North and NFC East. 2008 Pats faced AFC West (no disrespect) and NFC West.

So, yeah, color me unimpressed with your argument. Extremely, seriously, VERY unimpressed.

[Marcellus]

This thread is like asking whether you would rather fuck Jessica Alba or Natalie Portman. The answer is Yes.

[ThaVirus]

Anytime I watch Tom Brady throw the ball he has at least 5 seconds to get rid of the ball. It's not hard to stand tall in the pocket when you don't get touched; therefore, I disagree with this..

[dred]

Anytime I watch Tom Brady throw the ball he has at least 5 seconds to get rid of the ball. It's not hard to stand tall in the pocket when you don't get touched; therefore, I disagree with this..
This.

Manning has had to release the ball in under 2 seconds or he is getting his clock cleaned.

The Colts O line sucks balls this year.

Most Colts fans knew this before the season officially started.

[milkman]

Anytime I watch Tom Brady throw the ball he has at least 5 seconds to get rid of the ball. It's not hard to stand tall in the pocket when you don't get touched; therefore, I disagree with this..

You're kidding right?

Or maybe you are simply confusing Brady's uncanny ability to glide in the pocket to avoid pressure with standing tall in the pocket.

Either way, his protection, until this season has been on about the same level as Manning's has been through the years, though I would argue that Manning's has been somewhat better.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

This thread is like asking whether you would rather fuck Jessica Alba or Natalie Portman. The answer is Yes.

The answer, in our case, is a mannish-looking Jennifer Garner.