Grienke to BREWERS

[kstater]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586

Former Cy Young Award winner Zack Greinke (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5883) has been traded to the Milwaukee Brewers (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/_/name/mil/milwaukee-brewers), sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney on Sunday morning.
In the deal, the Brewers would reportedly send the Royals outfielder Lorenzo Cain (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29416), shortstop Alcides Escobar (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29229) and prospect pitchers Jake Odorizzi and Jeremy Jeffress (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=30954) for Greinke, 10-14 with a 4.17 ERA in 2010 with the Royals after winning the 2009 Cy Young.
The Brewers were expected to receive another major leaguer in the deal. Jim Breem of the blog "Bernie's Crew" reported that player to be shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6218).

[MIAdragon]

A good spot for him

[kstater]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM5C1cUF2JZknHkv98Z5afoAjZPK-e0C7EGIOvycjPEJc4IoKeeQ

[HemiEd]

dammit

[58-4ever]

As long as those Phillies are still in the NL, I don't forsee the Brewers going anywhere. Just like the Seahags, you can switch leagues, but you will still always suck.

[kstater]

Jerry Crasnick said on ESPN that people think it's a little light for the Royals. Hearing him try not to snicker while saying it was sickening.

[Silock]

So... is this a good haul?

[BigMeatballDave]

Deez is going to blow a fucking gasket.

[The Rick]

YES!!!!

[DeezNutz]

Congrats, Milwaukee. Christmas came early and you fleeced the dumbest GM in baseball. I take solace only in the fact that you'll have to listen to bullshit about how "the numbers don't tell the whole story" about Betancourt. I hope that motherfucker costs you 3 runs per game when Greinke pitches.

In exchange for an ace, we received:
1. One legit pitching prospect.
2. A player who cannot hit and is supposed to be a plus defender, but who inexplicably couldn't field for shit last year.
3. A player who cannot hit.
4. A pitcher who is one strike away from being out of baseball.

Baird is in Boston laughing at this return.

[Deberg_1990]

But the Minors are loaded!!!

[kcfanXIII]

Fuck the royal. Hope they set a record for losses. Its like the Beltran deal all over again. Give up a star for some bullshit. Fuck you Dayton Moore and Fuck you David Glass. I hope you both get Fucked in the ass by rusty bayonets.

[KCinNY]

Wow, Moore really held out for the best possible return, didn't he?

[The Rick]

Congrats, Milwaukee. Christmas came early and you fleeced the dumbest GM in baseball. I take solace only in the fact that you'll have to listen to bullshit about how "the numbers don't tell the whole story" about Betancourt. I hope that motherfucker costs you 3 runs per game when Greinke pitches.

In exchange for an ace, we received:
1. One legit pitching prospect.
2. A player who cannot hit and is supposed to be a plus defender, but who inexplicably couldn't field for shit last year.
3. A player who cannot hit.
4. A pitcher who is one strike away from being out of baseball.

Baird is in Boston laughing at this return.

As happy as I am to get Greinke, I do hate losing Escobar and Cain. Escobar just had a bad year last year (like Greinke). He'll be fine. Cain was really good after being called up last year. So much so that many around here considered him untouchable.

[WilliamTheIrish]

nice job Dayton. You f*ck! You HAVE to be kidding me?
Posted via Mobile Device

[MarcBulger]

Hate to see that...Being a Cards fan, but hell you can't get everyone...

[petegz28]

For some reason I am not regretting letting go of my season tickets.

[crossbow]

I hate this team now. Every player I ever liked got traded away for guys that aren't even on the team now. They keep screwing the fans and we keep voting them money for it.

[easymobee]

Rockies fans were ready to jump off a building after the Holliday trade.

Ended up getting Cargo in the end. A good defensive outfielder who hit approx .210 in the majors up to that point. Also getting a decent closer in Street.

Sometimes these things work out.

[KC_Connection]

I told you guys that you wouldn't get a package anywhere near Snider and Drabek for Greinke. Surprised that this was as much as Dayton Moore could get for him, but then again, he is Dayton Moore.

[MarcBulger]

THe Pirates made, cleared, after taxes, etc over 20 million last year...What do you think the Royals made?

[Deberg_1990]

They keep screwing the fans and we keep voting them money for it.


:banghead:

[KC_Connection]

Congrats, Milwaukee. Christmas came early and you fleeced the dumbest GM in baseball. I take solace only in the fact that you'll have to listen to bullshit about how "the numbers don't tell the whole story" about Betancourt. I hope that mother****er costs you 3 runs per game when Greinke pitches.

In exchange for an ace, we received:
1. One legit pitching prospect.
2. A player who cannot hit and is supposed to be a plus defender, but who inexplicably couldn't field for shit last year.
3. A player who cannot hit.
4. A pitcher who is one strike away from being out of baseball.

Baird is in Boston laughing at this return.

Yeah, the only really good prospect here is Odorizzi and he's still years away from making an impact in the majors if he even gets there. Jeremy Jeffress has an incredible arm, but he's wild and looks tagged to be a reliever at the next level. And while they are still really young, Cain and Escobar look like nothing more than mediocre starters at the MLB level. Based on this deal, it seems like the Royals could have taken something like Anthony Gose, Yunel Escobar, and Zach Stewart from the Jays. That's about equivalent value, anyway.

[Blindside58]

Congrats, Milwaukee. Christmas came early and you fleeced the dumbest GM in baseball. I take solace only in the fact that you'll have to listen to bullshit about how "the numbers don't tell the whole story" about Betancourt. I hope that motherfucker costs you 3 runs per game when Greinke pitches.

In exchange for an ace, we received:
1. One legit pitching prospect.
2. A player who cannot hit and is supposed to be a plus defender, but who inexplicably couldn't field for shit last year.
3. A player who cannot hit.
4. A pitcher who is one strike away from being out of baseball.

Baird is in Boston laughing at this return.

...And the Brewers got a Head Case that could chose to go mow lawns within a year! Greinke has been great, but I still worried that he was the type to just walk away at anytime ala Barry Sanders.

[Pioli Zombie]

So hard to know right now if this deal works out. So many times the team at the other end of the so-called ripoff ends up with 2 or 3 players that pan out. If Cain and Escobar live up to their scouting reports its a good deal. But then again its the Royals so get out the butt paste.

[KC_Connection]

I'm unsure that Jeffress' "marijuana problems" mean for his future. If he gets caught one more time, does that mean he's banned?

I'm not even sure MLB tests for marijuana use, it might just be MILB.

[notorious]

The Royals stopped giving a fuck years ago, so why should you guys?


The Royals are the poster child for stupidity, and I have zero tolerance for it.

[DeezNutz]

The truth of the matter is that all Royals fans, myself included, can do is hope that what looks like a disaster on paper turns into something surprisingly good.

Escobar was once a highly thought of prospect for a reason, so we have to hope beyond hope that '09 was a fluke. If he's the goods, we'll almost certainly win the trade.

If.

[BigRedChief]

dammitThis! :mad:

oh welllll at least we will get to see a Pujols vs. Grienke match up.

[BigRedChief]

The truth of the matter is that all Royals fans, myself included, can do is hope that what looks like a disaster on paper turns into something surprisingly good.

Escobar was once a highly thought of prospect for a reason, so we have to hope beyond hope that '09 was a fluke. If he's the goods, we'll almost certainly win the trade.

If.I saw Cain play last year. He looked like he had a lot potential.

[Archie F. Swin]

So... wait, our best pitcher and home run hitter......for what?

[the Talking Can]

So... wait, our best pitcher and home run hitter......for what?

guys with cool names...

[Mr. Arrowhead]

I'm unsure that Jeffress' "marijuana problems" mean for his future. If he gets caught one more time, does that mean he's banned?

I'm not even sure MLB tests for marijuana use, it might just be MILB.
Hell im sure he gonna get extra loaded tonight because he just got traded to the royals

[doomy3]

I think this is a pretty decent return for the Royals.

We are getting their #1 prospect this year, their #1 prospect last year, a center fielder with some upside, and a reliever who can top 100 mph on the gun.

Remember that Rangers fans were once livid about their return for Teixeira?

[The Rick]

As a Brewers fan, this offseason has been a dream come true. Randy Wolf went from being our #2 starter to our #4. Years of bad pitching look to be over. Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum, and Wolf may not be the Phillies rotation, but it's pretty darn good and makes us WAY more competitive.

[The Bunk]

I think this is a pretty decent return for the Royals.

We are getting their #1 prospect this year, their #1 prospect last year, a center fielder with some upside, and a reliever who can top 100 mph on the gun.

Remember that Rangers fans were once livid about their return for Teixeira?

Yeah, I'll be interested to hear what Rany has to say. Without knowing anything about these guys and just checking out their stats, I really like it. It looks to me like Cain is the centerpiece of the trade, he's got a freakin' awesome line from last year. Not to mention, the addition by subtraction of Betancourt. Escobar's line from last year in an "off" year, his first in the majors was almost as good as Betancourt's career year. Jeffress looks like the throw-in piece to the whole deal, and he was at one time their #1 prospect.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

What the fuck happened to getting Ryan Braun for Greinke?

[KC_Connection]

I think this is a pretty decent return for the Royals.

We are getting their #1 prospect this year, their #1 prospect last year, a center fielder with some upside, and a reliever who can top 100 mph on the gun.

Remember that Rangers fans were once livid about their return for Teixeira?

It really doesn't seem like this is the best he could have gotten. None of these guys are of the caliber of Snider and Drabek (players they were supposedly asking for from Toronto, and players that some Royals fans here didn't even like).

This is what happens when a GM gets fixated on a few positions (CF/SS/SP) in a trade and decides to target them at the expense of acquiring elite talent.

[KC_Connection]

As a Brewers fan, this offseason has been a dream come true. Randy Wolf went from being our #2 starter to our #4. Years of bad pitching look to be over. Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum, and Wolf may not be the Phillies rotation, but it's pretty darn good and makes us WAY more competitive.
Be thankful that your team is willing to spend some money on contending over the next few years. Many of us don't have that luxury.

[KcMizzou]

@Greg_Schaum :
Now Gammons is reporting that Jeffress is no longer in the deal and it will be a PTBNL .....interesting

[KC_Connection]

SI_JonHeyman

#royals were close to deal w/ #nats. but greinke had right to reject trade to wash and told kc he wouldnt go. he approved crew, tho


If I were a Royals fan, I might be getting pissed at Greinke right now.

[KChiefs1]

Why do I continue to root & follow a pos organization like this?

[Al Bundy]

jazayerli

So it appears Jeffress is indeed out, but PTBNL in. Wonderful - the biggest Royals trade in ages, and we can't really analyze it yet.

[David.]

just another reason to not care about the royals anymore.

[mnchiefsguy]

I have tried to give Dayton Moore the benefit of the doubt, but if this is the trade for Greinke, he should be fired on the spot.

[diveonthefloor31]

jazayerli

So it appears Jeffress is indeed out, but PTBNL in. Wonderful - the biggest Royals trade in ages, and we can't really analyze it yet.

Hoping for Arnett, Heckathorn, Braddock, or Rivas.

Jeffress is a pothead

[CaliforniaChief]

This is embarrassing. If the Chiefs don't win today, it's gonna be a helluva bad weekend in God's country.

[The Bad Guy]

It puzzles me why he wouldn't agree to go to DC.

[CaliforniaChief]

It puzzles me why he wouldn't agree to go to DC.

Psychotropic meds must cost more in DC. :shrug:

[chiefsnorth]

Escobar, who turned 24 earlier this week, was viewed by Baseball America as the Brewers' top prospect heading into the 2010 season, his first full year in the bigs. Although he struggled at the plate, hitting .235/.288/.326 in 552 plate appearances, Escobar provided above-average defense at shortstop, according to UZR. Baseball America's scouting report prior to the season dubbed Escobar a "defensive whiz" and a "special defender," while also citing a hope that he'd develop into a solid leadoff option. The 24-year-old's minor league numbers (.293/.333/.377, 176 SB) indicate that his offensive game should continue to improve at the major league level.

Cain, 24, was considered one of the Brewers' top 10 prospects even before a hugely successful 2010 campaign. After hitting .317/.402/.432 across two minor league levels, Cain received his first shot at the bigs, and posted a .306/.348/.415 slash line in 148 plate appearances in Milwaukee. Like Escobar, Cain's primary strengths are his speed and athleticism. Baseball America suggested before the 2010 season that he "could be a more prolific and successful basestealer," and Cain responded by stealing 33 bases in 37 attempts between the minors and majors. According to Baseball America, the former 17th-round pick shows "flashes of power but is mostly a gap hitter."

Odorizzi, meanwhile, was rated by some teams as the best high school pitcher in the 2008 draft, according to Baseball America. Just 20 years old, Odorizzi is the only player in the deal who has yet to see major league action, but he turned in an impressive year at Class A Wisconsin, recording a 3.43 ERA and 10.1 K/9 in 120 2/3 innings. ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick notes in a tweet that the right-hander was ranked first in Milwaukee's system in Baseball America's upcoming Prospect Handbook.

The move represents the second major pitching acquisition of the winter for the Brewers, who previously traded top prospect Brett Lawrie to the Blue Jays for Shaun Marcum. The Brewers had long indicated a desire to shore up a starting rotation whose 4.65 ERA ranked near the bottom of the National League in 2010. Moving a handful of young players in the two trades, while hanging on to Prince Fielder, suggests that the club feels they can immediately contend in the NL Central.

[eazyb81]

Some of you are such f'n vaginas. My God.

Escobar was the 12th overall prospect in baseball 12 months ago. He provides plus-plus defense at shortstop, which is worth its weight in gold.

So many want to hail the Teixeira trade as the mega haul of all-time we should have aimed for, which Elvis Andrus was the cornerstone talent in the package Texas received. People, Alcides Escobar is the closest comp to Andrus in the sport.

Rag on Escobar's rookie season line all you want, but with his defense, he doesn't need to OPS 900 to provide All Star value.

Odorizzi will be a top 60 overall prospect, Cain is a nice young CF that can actually hit and play defense, and we have a PTBNL that will most likely be a young, projectable player from the 2010 draft.

[The Bad Guy]

In the Nats deal, Washington would have given up Drew Storen and Danny Espinoza. I know nothing of Espinoza, but Storen is the goods.

[eazyb81]

In the Nats deal, Washington would have given up Drew Storen and Danny Espinoza. I know nothing of Espinoza, but Storen is the goods.

He's also a reliever. Decent throw-in but hardly worthy of centering a deal around.

[wazu]

My seven year old, after I told him what we got in the trade: "But Grienke was our best player...so does that mean Soria is our best player now?"

[KevB]

Some of you are such f'n vaginas. My God.

Escobar was the 12th overall prospect in baseball 12 months ago. He provides plus-plus defense at shortstop, which is worth its weight in gold.

So many want to hail the Teixeira trade as the mega haul of all-time we should have aimed for, which Elvis Andrus was the cornerstone talent in the package Texas received. People, Alcides Escobar is the closest comp to Andrus in the sport.

Rag on Escobar's rookie season line all you want, but with his defense, he doesn't need to OPS 900 to provide All Star value.

Odorizzi will be a top 60 overall prospect, Cain is a nice young CF that can actually hit and play defense, and we have a PTBNL that will most likely be a young, projectable player from the 2010 draft.

I'm with you, I don't hate the deal. We'll see who the PTBNL will be, as that could make the deal better as well. DM has preached pitching and defense to fit the park, and that's exactly what he got in this deal. I would have felt better about it if Lawrie were still with the Brewers and had been included, but oh well. We didn't get any big bats it appears, but I'm hopeful that they have plans in that area with money and other prospects to use. This is just another step along the way.

[DeezNutz]

Who cares what Escobar was 12 months ago? All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed. The most disconcerting thing is his defensive regression, with his horrendous OBP a close second.

We have no choice but to give it the benefit of the doubt, but, on paper, this is a terrible trade for Greinke.

Now we have to be hopeful.

[Bowser]

Hahahahahaha

Good God


And you better be right, easyb. We better see marked improvements THIS season, or Moore can GTFO. He can take the Glass family with him, too.

[JoeyChuckles]

I read that we got the Brewers top two pitching prospects and top two up the middle prospects. Plus we got rid of Betancourt. What's not to like?

[wazu]

I guess if Rany likes it, I'll give it a chance. When it comes to the Royals, I just can't invest myself enough to think I know exponentially more than the experts like I do with the Chiefs.

[tk13]

It puzzles me why he wouldn't agree to go to DC.

Probably didn't want to go to a big city like that.

[Consistent1]

In the Nats deal, Washington would have given up Drew Storen and Danny Espinoza. I know nothing of Espinoza, but Storen is the goods.

The Nats seem to wanting to put a decent team together. As much as I enjoy watching Werth, that seems to be a terrible deal for them. But,if they could have gotten Zack and get Strasburg healthy at some point, that would have been a competitive as hell top of the rotation. It is interesting to see a team like that try to make some moves.

[Bowser]

I read that we got the Brewers top two pitching prospects and top two up the middle prospects. Plus we got rid of Betancourt. What's not to like?

We just traded our Cy Young award winner for untested prospects. If they pan out, it's all good, but how many times have you seen EVERY prospect turn out on the major league level? As of right now, it looks like we got hosed, and Moore is the laughing stock of MLB. Getting rid of Betancourt is a plus, however.....

[eazyb81]

Who cares what Escobar was 12 months ago? All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed. The most disconcerting thing is his defensive regression, with his horrendous OBP a close second.

We have no choice but to give it the benefit of the doubt, but, on paper, this is a terrible trade for Greinke.

Now we have to be hopeful.

You don't completely discount a player's track record because of one BABIP-distorted rookie year. And I don't see the defensive regression you're talking about - his 4.7 UZR/150 was 7th best at the position this past year. It says a lot about his upside if that is considered a disappointment.

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

[Bowser]

Probably didn't want to go to a big city like that.

And another perrenial(sp?) loser, even if he and Strasburg would have made a ridiculous 1-2 punch in their lineup.

[cabletech94]

at first i thought this thread was a joke.
then i read some more.
wish we'd gotten a catcher (may still).

at least we got rid of "the worst SS in the ML's".

addition by subtraction, i guess.
i'll miss zach, but he's a headcase.

[Bowser]

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

Good point, but..... it just has the feel they we got fleeced. Only time will tell, I guess.

[siberian khatru]

My .02 (if it's worth even that):

* That's not the trade I would've made, but when I saw the rumors last night they had more than a ring of legitimacy. Escobar and Cain are DM's kind of players.

Having said that, I don't think this is the Beltran trade all over again. None of those players were anything close to the projected quality of Escobar and Odorizzi. And Cain, IMO, is not Jarrod Dyson or Joey Gathright or Blanco. Yes, that's a pretty low bar to clear, but still ...

Yes, there are "If's" to overcome. But I don't think it's a big "IF" to imagine Escobar's defense returning to its stellar minor league reputation (how do you suddenly and forever lose your D at that age ... must've just been a really rough year for him all around). And he had a very low BABIP. He should rebound with the bat. He could definitely hit .275-.285 with Gold Glove level D and good speed (albeit with a mediocre OBP and low SLG). So he's no TPJ.

Cain, well, DM just loves his CFs like this. He'd probably sign Omar Moreno if he could. I think Cain will be a solid MLB player. I don't know if that's enough. But I don't think he's a bum like Blanco or a bust like Gathright.

So DM got what he wanted -- two everyday, up-the-middle players. I think they are better than what we have. But again, are they good enough?

* So much of the emotions swirling around this involve the known and the unknown. Everyone says we should have gotten more for Greinke, but COULD we have? Right now, we don't know that. Most of the speculation involved what the Royals wanted to get, not what they were offered.

Also, we have ML numbers for Cain and Escobar, and they are underwhelming. If we had gotten a MiL uber-prospect, we could bask in the glow of projecting the unknown -- just as we did with Alex Gordon a few years ago.

As Deez said, "All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed." But are you going to discard former prospects based on just one season in the majors? Or are you always going to want the unexposed prize because the projection is infinite and untarnished?

I think it's WAY too early to write off Cain and Escobar because of one year, and dangerous to focus on that still-wrapped present sitting under the neighbor's tree. Yeah, there are a bunch of highly-touted prospects I'd rather have, but I don't know if they were available. If they'd EVER be available, even if DM folded his tent on Zack and waited and waited.

He SHOULD have gotten more for Zack. But COULD he have?

Maybe we'll find out in the coming days and weeks. If it turns out that DM declined a better deal because it didn't involve two up-the-middle guys, then I'll be inclined to rip him.

But right now, I'm just trying to deal with the reality and the knowns. And what I KNOW about this deal doesn't make me want to break furniture. I don't think the players involved are bad or make no sense for the Royals. Maybe that's rationalization, but so be it. I also don't think it's fair to judge it against what we don't know.

[tk13]

I don't know that I'm super excited about who we got. I'm more excited about the pitchers than the position players. But honestly I think it turned out better than I thought it would. I was half expecting to get ripped off by the Yankees stable of usually overrated prospects. I never expected a Ryan Braun type trade... I think people were aiming in the wrong direction. DM was clearly going for a Teixeira type trade... four young players we control for a long time, and that's exactly what we did.

This does have the potential to bust just like the Beltran trade though, no doubt. Although in that trade I liked the position players more than the pitcher. I like Odorizzi much better than Mike Wood. And at least we got a SS who hasn't already proven he can't hit, I guess. The Brewers are definitely going for it all next year before Fielder leaves.

[Kidd Lex]

Lets also not forget that Greinke demanded a trade, has some serious anxiety issues, had a lackluster year last year, and admitted he had trouble finding motivation. I love the trade especially if the PTBNL is Cheech. The kid has a live arm and as long as he is on the 40 man roster, he cannot be suspended for weed.

The Royals were not going to compete this year, and this trade goes a long way towards starting the youth movement in the pros, that will be complimented the next 3-4 years by what Baseball America considers the best minor league system they have ever rated.

GMDM is doing a hell of a job considering Allard Baird left our minors decimated. Please look at the big picture before giving up on our squad. 2011 will be a rough year, but their is light at the end of the tunnel.

[DeezNutz]

You don't completely discount a player's track record because of one BABIP-distorted rookie year. And I don't see the defensive regression you're talking about - his 4.7 UZR/150 was 7th best at the position this past year. It says a lot about his upside if that is considered a disappointment.

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

Rtot -3 in '10.

[chiefsnorth]

We just traded our Cy Young award winner for untested prospects. If they pan out, it's all good, but how many times have you seen EVERY prospect turn out on the major league level? As of right now, it looks like we got hosed, and Moore is the laughing stock of MLB. Getting rid of Betancourt is a plus, however.....

What do they do then, let him walk?

Royals fans have been burned too much in the past to be objective. You could add five more players to this and they still wouldn't be happy. I get that. But this deal includes two likely everyday starters this year who are high level prospects, and it also includes a 20 year old who was Milkwaukee's best pitcher in the system, plus one of their draftees who would carry similar value to Jeffress.

While the Royalfan shit-colored glasses are always in effect and you can debate whether these four players are decent return for two years of an ace pitcher, there IS a lot of talent coming over to KC in this deal. No question there. In the end everyone will believe whatever they want to believe

[tk13]

Ken Rosenthal says the PTNBL is a "pretty good player," according to a source.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/brewers-chose-greinke-over-prospects

The rest is basically how Doug Melvin has gambled his job on this trade.

[Consistent1]

Greinke still puzzles me. I like his talent and have loved watching him pitch when I've gotten the chance. I just don't see how he could even like this deal. Milwaukee isn't a bad team, but I would be wanting to go to a team that almost guarantees me an outstanding shot at 20 wins a year for at least the next several years, playoff runs, etc. I don't know if Milwaukee is the place for that. Who knows? Sucks for the Royals fans as much as anything. The team itself still couldn't win consistently with him in KC.

[Gonzo]

Well, this fucking sucks. Nice job Moore, you piece of shit.
Posted via Mobile Device

[tk13]

Lets also not forget that Greinke demanded a trade, has some serious anxiety issues, had a lackluster year last year, and admitted he had trouble finding motivation. I love the trade especially if the PTBNL is Cheech. The kid has a live arm and as long as he is on the 40 man roster, he cannot be suspended for weed.

The Royals were not going to compete this year, and this trade goes a long way towards starting the youth movement in the pros, that will be complimented the next 3-4 years by what Baseball America considers the best minor league system they have ever rated.

GMDM is doing a hell of a job considering Allard Baird left our minors decimated. Please look at the big picture before giving up on our squad. 2011 will be a rough year, but their is light at the end of the tunnel.

I said it in another thread... the thing is all of us Royal fans know he's going to go somewhere and probably get his head on straight and light it up. But there are fans of other teams that are going to say the Brewers gutted their farm system for a guy is a headcase who had a league-average year last year. Of course we're going to sit here and say Escobar had a bad year too... I guess that's how it goes. But there are people who think Greinke's Cy Young year was a fluke. We had one of them posting in the other thread.

[Bowser]

What do they do then, let him walk?

Royals fans have been burned too much in the past to be objective. You could add five more players to this and they still wouldn't be happy. I get that. But this deal includes two likely everyday starters this year who are high level prospects, and it also includes a 20 year old who was Milkwaukee's best pitcher in the system, plus one of their draftees who would carry similar value to Jeffress.

While the Royalfan shit-colored glasses are always in effect and you can debate whether these four players are decent return for two years of an ace pitcher, there IS a lot of talent coming over to KC in this deal. No question there. In the end everyone will believe whatever they want to believe

No, they wait for the right deal. Zach was under contract for two more years. What was he going to do, pout if he didn't get traded? Retire?

Eh, whatever. It is what it is. One thing for certain - this is Dayton Moore's make-or-break move. Either he looks like a genius in a year, or he's out of a job.

[petegz28]

Didn't we just draft the top SS prospect??

[cabletech94]

Didn't we just draft the top SS prospect??

stopgap?

still confused here.

[tk13]

No, they wait for the right deal. Zach was under contract for two more years. What was he going to do, pout if he didn't get traded? Retire?


Maybe. That's the problem. Zack could've sabotaged the whole thing by going out there and screwing around and pitching like he didn't care, which we all know he's capable of doing. If we wait and he put out another .500 season with a 4+ ERA... his value crashes and this trade might be for Cain and Odorizzi, if we're lucky.

[duncan_idaho]

So we'd heard the Rangers and Blue Jays as most likely trade companions for Greinke. Let's compare the rumored offers/asking prices to what the Royals actually got.

Rangers first.

The best deal the Rangers offered was SS Jurickson Profar, RHP Tanner Scheppers OR LHP Derek Holland, CF Engel Beltre and an unnamed piece.

SS: Profar vs. Alcides Escobar. Escobar was the top SS prospect in the game just 12 months ago, and untouchable. He's a top defender who has good speed and showed good average/OBP ability throughout his career, until 2010. He struggled in his first full MLB season after having a strong MLB debut in 2009. Upside: .280-.300 hitter who steals 30 bases+ and plays GG-caliber defense. Downside: .240 hitter who plays GG-caliber defense.

CF: Lorenzo Cain vs. Engel Beltre. Similar players. Beltre is younger, Cain is more proven. Cain looks like a good defense, decent OBP and speed CF. His game plays well in CF at Kaufmann Stadium.

RHP Jake Odorizzi vs. LHP Derek Holland or Tanner Scheppers. Holland has had some big-league success and looks like a solid No. 3. Scheppers has injury concerns, as well as doubts about his ability to be a starter (doesn't have a third pitch). Odorizzi was possibly the top HS pitcher in the 08 draft, and he has backed up that billing with strong MiLB performances. He's actually very comparable to Rangers LHP Martin Perez, who apparently Texas balked at including.

PTBNL vs. misc. It sounds like Jeffress won't be part of the deal, which is interesting. He's got some huge issues with the ganja, but his talent is intriguing. At worst, he looks like a good MLB reliever. At best, he could harness the talent and be a No. 2 starter. This part will be interesting.... could be another young, projectable type, though the Brewers really don't have any of those left.

Blue Jays:

SS Escobar vs. Travis Snyder. Polar opposites. Snyder is an all-hit, no-glove guy who plays the least valuable defensive position in baseball at an acceptable level. Escobar is speed and defense at the most important position, with plus-potential with the glove. The Royals have some guys who look like Snyder. They don't have any that look like Escobar.

RHP Drabek vs. Odorizzi. Drabek is a better prospect (right now), though Odorizzi is very similar (just younger). Similar stuff and upside levels here, Drabek is simply two years further down the road. Drabek is more proven, but has had elbow surgery. Odorizzi offers more K potential. The advantage, right now, would be to Drabek. But two things: 1) The Blue Jays balked at including him; 2) Right now is less important than four years from now. Wouldn't be surprising if Odorizzi is the better guy at that point.

CF Cain, PTBNL vs. ?. Never heard anything beyond Snyder and Drabek, though soon-to-be 1B J.P. Arrencebia was floated. So hard to do this. What we DO know, though, is that the Jays didn't have a player like Cain to include.

The more I look at this, the more I can stomach it and see it working. Including Odorizzi makes the deal a lot better. Escobar is going to be the evaluation point most people begin with. Will be interesting to see how he rebounds (or if he does).

[siberian khatru]

Didn't we just draft the top SS prospect??

There was always talk about him eventually winding up at 2B. Which now, I assume, he will.

Bad news for Johnny G. Maybe he'll be packaged in a deal down the road.

[Kidd Lex]

stopgap?

still confused here.

Actually projects better at 2B. Defensively lacks range to play SS in the pros. Colon and Escobar and Cain could be fierce defensively up the middle. As a former college pitcher I can tell you guys like Lamb, Duffy, Montgomery, and Crow appreciate this trade and the drafting of Colon.

Big Picture...

[Consistent1]

I said it in another thread... the thing is all of us Royal fans know he's going to go somewhere and probably get his head on straight and light it up. But there are fans of other teams that are going to say the Brewers gutted their farm system for a guy is a headcase who had a league-average year last year. Of course we're going to sit here and say Escobar had a bad year too... I guess that's how it goes. But there are people who think Greinke's Cy Young year was a fluke. We had one of them posting in the other thread.

I don't think a person could say talent wise the Cy was a fluke. 24-5 with a nice ERA wouldn't surprise me if he gets some run support when he is only so-so. He was never going to be able to do something like that in KC. Being a fan of the guy as a player, I would have hoped to see him get the ball in situations such as the Red Sox needing a guy to shut down Tampa Bay/Yanks, etc. I do hope the Royals end up with some production from the prospects. All the fans deserve to see something in return.

[tk13]

Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus likes the trade.

Kevin_Goldstein
People who really like the trade for #Royals: Me, two front office people I spoke to. Is that the list?

[siberian khatru]

They really ought to go ahead and trade Soria, too.

Then we can spend the next couple of years auditioning his replacement.

[tyton75]

I gotta say, I like the deal; there may have been better deals available; but to get 2 young, highly rated guys up the middle.. thats a good thing because I dont' think we had anyone coming up that could fill those positions. I know nothing about the pitchers we got, but loading up the stable with another guy who has high potential and a situational guy is a good thing. Not like we would be able to keep Greinke when this contract was up anyway.

Now I just hope a couple of these guys pan out.

oh, AND Bettancourt is GONE.. thank GOD!

[HotRoute]

I am so fucking done with the royals. They are the worst ran professional sports team I have ever seen. This tops it off for me, I said to myself a few weeks back when the royals trade grienke that would be the last time I pay attention to this petri dish of a baseball franchise. Never again, NEVER AGAIN

[Sure-Oz]

Hope Escobar returns to form...this trade is all hope...it could be really good (crosses fingers)

[Kidd Lex]

I am so ****ing done with the royals. They are the worst ran professional sports team I have ever seen. This tops it off for me, I said to myself a few weeks back when the royals trade grienke that would be the last time I pay attention to this petri dish of a baseball franchise. Never again, NEVER AGAIN

Such perspective :rolleyes:

[alnorth]

If they pan out, it's all good, but how many times have you seen EVERY prospect turn out on the major league level?

We dont need every prospect to pan out, this deal lives or dies with Escobar. If he and only he lives up to what people think he was going to do last year and the other 3 guys are all garbage, this trade is immediately a push. If Escobar and anybody else does well we win. If Escobar is crap, we probably lost this trade unless Odorizzi becomes an ace.

Thats without knowing who the PTBNL is though, I'm hearing the PTBNL in this case is going to be a good player, not a throw in like it usually is.

[DeezNutz]

I would have rather sent him to NY for Montero. I'll take a potentially elite bat and worry about the position later.

Now we're in a position to hope a player's defense returns to form. Really? Fucking pathetic.

[duncan_idaho]

Early stab at the 2013 roster:

1) SS - Escobar
2) 2B - Colon
3) 1B - Hosmer
4) DH - Butler
5) RF - Myers
6) 3B - Moustakas
7) LF - Gordon/David Lough/Jeff Francouer
8) C - Perez/May (or... to be acquired for Alex Gordon and Robinson Tejeda?)
9) CF - Cain

The shape of the everyday lineup is really falling into place. That's a strong- and cheap - group.

The starting rotation will be interesting. You have a few guys like Hochevar and Mazzaro who look like middle-of-the-pack starters, but the prospects... Montgomery, Duffy, Dwyer, Lamb, Odorizzi, Crow... all are potential answers. And all of those guys have No. 1 or No. 2 ability. Have to think at least two of them will stick, IMO.

[alnorth]

I am so ****ing done with the royals. They are the worst ran professional sports team I have ever seen. This tops it off for me, I said to myself a few weeks back when the royals trade grienke that would be the last time I pay attention to this petri dish of a baseball franchise. Never again, NEVER AGAIN

We'll see you back in three years when they are competing for the division title.

[alnorth]

I would have rather sent him to NY for Montero. I'll take a potentially elite bat and worry about the position later.

Now we're in a position to hope a player's defense returns to form. Really? ****ing pathetic.

It doesnt sound like that was ever an option. We had a deal with the Nats and Greinke said no. Greinke said he wouldnt have minded going to NY, but the Yankees were never really close.

We dont have any proof that Moore had anything better available, and going into spring training with Greinke wasnt an option.

[DeezNutz]

In '10:

Escobar's Rtot: -3
Betancourt's Rtot: -2

[grandllama]

I am so ****ing done with the royals. They are the worst ran professional sports team I have ever seen. This tops it off for me, I said to myself a few weeks back when the royals trade grienke that would be the last time I pay attention to this petri dish of a baseball franchise. Never again, NEVER AGAIN

I said the same thing after Saberhagen got traded.

I'm still here.

Not happy, but still here.

What a glutton for punishment I am.

[DeezNutz]

And this team's payroll needs to be middle of the pack, no less, by 2013-14.

[Reaper16]

This trade reeks of Baird's Beltran trade. I'm going to laugh if the PTBNL is some catcher. That said, if Escobar was still in the minors everyone would be praising the trade. It ALL hinges on Escobar. I expect his defense to be more than fine. If his bat can improve...

I'm disappointed in this haul. I'm frankly pissed at Zach for accepting the Brewers deal but not the Nats; there's no fucking difference between those clubs. Escobar could easily solve a critical piece of the future puzzle, though.

My largest thought: how much of the Royals' #1 farm system is actually the byproduct of J.J. Piccollo and Mike Arbuckle and not Dayton Moore?

[Mizzou_8541]

Any rumors about who the PTBNL is?

[58kcfan89]

I've said it before on here & I'll say it again: If the Royals don't make the playoffs by 2014, I'm done with 'em. I wasn't around for 1985 & don't think I've ever seen this team be competitive (fluke year of 2003 doesn't count). I'm willing to wait for 1 more youth movement, supposedly the best youth movement ever, but if this one doesn't pan out, I'm done.

As for the trade, I'm willing to wait on it, but it looks like the ML team is really going to suck. Again.

[Reaper16]

@Kevin_Goldstein (http://twitter.com/#%21/Kevin_Goldstein): Agreed. I hate to be THAT guy, but anyone who doesn't think Escobar is a plus defender needs to watch more baseball.

[duncan_idaho]

This trade reeks of Baird's Beltran trade.

I keep seeing this. Couldn't disagree more. Odorizzi is MUCH more highly regarded people realize. He was No. 9 on the 09 list by BA, but he was likely going to be the top guy until this trade (they haven't been released yet). He's a top 60 prospect. I don't think even Teahen was rated that highly.

And Escobar's potential blows away anything the Royals got back for Beltran.

[alnorth]

This is weird. I knew there was a difference in fielding stats depending on where you go but they are usually close.

Fangraphs is in sharp disagreement with baseball reference over whether Escobar is a good defender. baseball reference says he was crap last year, fangraphs says he was great. (fangraphs has him 0.6 WAR even though he sucked badly at the plate, his glove carried him up there)

Fangraphs: Of 21 shortstops who played enough innings to qualify, Escobar is roughly average at turning double plays, but he has the 5th-best range, and the 8th-best UZR. He was 5th-worst in errors. Fangraphs probably values range a lot more than baseball reference.

I'm guessing escobar booted a few more balls than he usually does and baseball reference heavily punished that while fangraphs recognized his range which enabled him to get to those balls that he booted.

[Reaper16]

I keep seeing this. Couldn't disagree more. Odorizzi is MUCH more highly regarded people realize. He was No. 9 on the 09 list by BA, but he was likely going to be the top guy until this trade (they haven't been released yet). He's a top 60 prospect. I don't think even Teahen was rated that highly.

And Escobar's potential blows away anything the Royals got back for Beltran.
I like Odorizzi a lot. I'm glad he's a Royal now.

I'm not thrilled with Cain. But he certainly fits the type of CF that Dayton seems to get hard over.

[DeezNutz]

I keep seeing this. Couldn't disagree more. Odorizzi is MUCH more highly regarded people realize. He was No. 9 on the 09 list by BA, but he was likely going to be the top guy until this trade (they haven't been released yet). He's a top 60 prospect. I don't think even Teahen was rated that highly.

And Escobar's potential blows away anything the Royals got back for Beltran.

I agree with this. The problem is that his basement is lower, and he was complete shit in '10.

Huge, huge gamble.

[alnorth]

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the fangraphs opinion that Escobar is a plus-plus shortstop who sucked at the plate.

He still needs to come around at the plate for us to win this trade, he cant be Rey Sanchez.

At this point we should also note that Escobar had horrible luck last year. his BABIP was 0.264. I doubt his line would have suddenly looked terrific if that number was normal, but what would his line have looked like if he had a .295 BABIP?

[KC_Connection]

@Kevin_Goldstein (http://twitter.com/#%21/Kevin_Goldstein): Agreed. I hate to be THAT guy, but anyone who doesn't think Escobar is a plus defender needs to watch more baseball.
To me, the problem with Escobar is not his fielding, it's the fact that he can't hit at all and will likely never be able to.

[Sure-Oz]

I agree with this. The problem is that his basement is lower, and he was complete shit in '10.

Huge, huge gamble.

I was really high on escobar, im really hoping this isn't a gordon thing.

[alnorth]

I'm hearing that the PTBNL cant be Jeffress. Players on the 40-man roster are not allowed to be a PTBNL.

[alnorth]

@jazayerli: I'm not jumping up and down about the trade or anything, but I confess I'm a little surprised by how many people hate this for the Royals.

[tk13]

I would have rather sent him to NY for Montero. I'll take a potentially elite bat and worry about the position later.

Now we're in a position to hope a player's defense returns to form. Really? ****ing pathetic.

The thing we'll probably never know is if Zack would've even allowed a trade to NY.

[Deberg_1990]

Its the Royals so Grienke will no doubt go on to win 2 or 3 rings and these other chumps will be mired in mediocrity or out of baseball in 3 or 4 years.

[The Bad Guy]

If he didn't want to go to DC, he wasn't going to NY.

[Reaper16]

@jazayerli: I'm not jumping up and down about the trade or anything, but I confess I'm a little surprised by how many people hate this for the Royals.
I think that people hate the trade for KC because there's no sure-thing. There's no super-stud that fires people up. Escobar can be that guy, would have been that guy a year ago, but has tarnished himself with his rookie year.

[DeezNutz]

I think Rany has fallen victim into making one-to-one projections for our most talented prospects. He's plugging them into lineups as if there won't be a high failure rate. This is why I was annoyed with how he very poorly tried to debunk comparing the Greinke situation to '04.

[Reaper16]

Man, I love the Brewers' rotation. Greinke-Gallardo-Marcum is a sick top 3.

[Marcellus]

All I have to say is WTF. The Brewers? He OK'd a trade to the fucking Brewers? Isn't that like tearing the crust off a shit sandwich?

[KC_Connection]

Blue Jays:

SS Escobar vs. Travis Snyder. Polar opposites. Snyder is an all-hit, no-glove guy who plays the least valuable defensive position in baseball at an acceptable level. Escobar is speed and defense at the most important position, with plus-potential with the glove. The Royals have some guys who look like Snyder. They don't have any that look like Escobar.

Snider is also a year and a half younger, and has proven he can hit and field at the MLB level. Escobar is coming off a terrible year and has never really hit, even in his MILB career. You're right that Escobar's potential value as a player is higher than Snider's because of positional scarcity, but the likelihood that he ever reaches it is quite low.


RHP Drabek vs. Odorizzi. Drabek is a better prospect (right now), though Odorizzi is very similar (just younger). Similar stuff and upside levels here, Drabek is simply two years further down the road. Drabek is more proven, but has had elbow surgery. Odorizzi offers more K potential. The advantage, right now, would be to Drabek. But two things: 1) The Blue Jays balked at including him; 2) Right now is less important than four years from now. Wouldn't be surprising if Odorizzi is the better guy at that point.
Yeah, Odorizzi looks like a really good prospect, but he's still a few years of development from reaching Drabek's level.


CF Cain, PTBNL vs. ?. Never heard anything beyond Snyder and Drabek, though soon-to-be 1B J.P. Arrencebia was floated. So hard to do this. What we DO know, though, is that the Jays didn't have a player like Cain to include.

They have Anthony Gose, a player with a higher ceiling than Cain in CF, but it looks like DM wanted somebody they could put out on the field next year.

[alnorth]

All I have to say is WTF. The Brewers? He OK'd a trade to the ****ing Brewers? Isn't that like tearing the crust off a shit sandwich?

here's a funny post from another board:

Wow, this may be the first time in history a professional athlete has ever said "No, I don't want to go THERE, I want to go to.... MILWAUKEE."

[DeezNutz]

Escobar and Cain immediately move to the starting lineup, correct?

[Reaper16]

Escobar and Cain immediately move to the starting lineup, correct?
I would have to think so.

[Sure-Oz]

Escobar and Cain immediately move to the starting lineup, correct?

LOL, yes

[DeezNutz]

Fuck.

[alnorth]

Escobar and Cain immediately move to the starting lineup, correct?

Escobar has got to be a lock for opening day. I assume Cain is our center fielder.

If Cain can prove that his short flash in 2010 wasnt a fluke, then the deal becomes more acceptable.

[DeezNutz]

Escobar has got to be a lock for opening day. I assume Cain is our center fielder.

If Cain can prove that his short flash in 2010 wasnt a fluke, then the deal becomes more acceptable.

Yeah, Cain was the only question. Shouldn't have even included him in the last post.

[Sure-Oz]

PTBNL is likely jeffers wtf his name is

[alnorth]

Rosenthal likes the deal for the Royals.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/kansas-city-royals-zack-greinke-trade-a-smart-move-121910

[alnorth]

Goldstein says Odorizzi will now be our #8 prospect, but he'd be top-3 in most systems.

[duncan_idaho]

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the fangraphs opinion that Escobar is a plus-plus shortstop who sucked at the plate.

He still needs to come around at the plate for us to win this trade, he cant be Rey Sanchez.

At this point we should also note that Escobar had horrible luck last year. his BABIP was 0.264. I doubt his line would have suddenly looked terrific if that number was normal, but what would his line have looked like if he had a .295 BABIP?

If his BABIP is normalized, you're looking at a .270 hitter with a .320 OBP. His defense has been raved about by EVERYONE who has seen him play in person. Obviously, baseball reference's formula doesn't like his 2010 D. Of course, when you're talking about guys who hit the ball on the ground with good speed and don't strike out, you usually see an above-average BABIP.

I know he was uncomfortable with Ken Macha, who doesn't have a great rep for dealing with young players. His primary offensive skills are his speed on the basepaths and his ability to scratch his way onto base. Hitting in the 8 spot limits his ability to steal bases, and his opportunities to try to bunt for a hit (something Escobar has excelled at). He committed a high # of errors last year, and being uncomfortable likely contributed there. His range was fantastic.

I think playing in the AL, under a manager with a great rep for dealing with young players, who will let him run and bunt, you're going to see an improved performance at the plate. Something in the .275 range, with 30 SBs.

There's soemthing somewhat weird I do... but I think the new sabermetrics do a poor job of accounting for the value of guys who can steal bases. So... I add a base to SLG % for each successful and subtract one for each caught stealing. Changes the OPS a bit.

Normalize Escobar's BABIP to .300, add value for his steals, and you're looking at a SS who OPSed nearly 50 points higher. The more he's allowed to run, the more value he provides in that area.

[DeezNutz]

Rosenthal likes the deal for the Royals.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/kansas-city-royals-zack-greinke-trade-a-smart-move-121910

Intended to "complement the young talent already in place."

And there's the problem. We don't have shit, yet. Nothing. We have hope, serious and legitimate hope, at certain positions but nothing more.

You don't make trades to complement hope.

[Sully]

I've said it before on here & I'll say it again: If the Royals don't make the playoffs by 2014, I'm done with 'em. I wasn't around for 1985 & don't think I've ever seen this team be competitive (fluke year of 2003 doesn't count). I'm willing to wait for 1 more youth movement, supposedly the best youth movement ever, but if this one doesn't pan out, I'm done.

As for the trade, I'm willing to wait on it, but it looks like the ML team is really going to suck. Again.

You missed '94?
That was a really fun year till the strike.


Sent from my Cuisinart using Tapatalk

[alnorth]

Cain 2010 highlight

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[ChiefsCountry]

You missed '94?
That was a really fun year till the strike.


94 was a really fun year. Of course the strike fugged it up.

[Valiant]

THe Pirates made, cleared, after taxes, etc over 20 million last year...What do you think the Royals made?

100+

[KevB]

from Greg Schaum: Asked three MLB personnel folks to rate #Royals haul on Greinke trade, 1-10, five's average, got a five, a six and a seven.

[KevB]

Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Elvis Andrus. RT @STAnteater: @Kevin_Goldstein What's a good comp for Escobar?

[alnorth]

The Royals now have a lot of flexibility. Other than Soria, no one of significance is under contract for 2012, and they will have an uber-cheap payroll. If they are anywhere close to contending in 2012 or 2013, there's no excuse for them not to go out and buy a couple missing pieces.

[Chiefs Rool]

it don't matter, we'll never have a chance in hell of competing.

[tk13]

100+

You can't be serious.

[alnorth]

it don't matter, we'll never have a chance in hell of competing.

This team is going to contend for the AL Central crown in 2013-2014.

[teedubya]

My son is crying because the Royals traded Zack. Asking why are the Royals always so BOO?!

[The Bunk]

You can't be serious.

Sadly, as uninformed as the majority of opinions in this thread have been, I have to think he is.

[The Bunk]

The Royals now have a lot of flexibility. Other than Soria, no one of significance is under contract for 2012, and they will have an uber-cheap payroll. If they are anywhere close to contending in 2012 or 2013, there's no excuse for them not to go out and buy a couple missing pieces.

Meche has one more year right? We could make a major splash prior to 2012 if we choose to do so.

[ChiefsCountry]

I rate this deal at about a 7. The Nat's proposal seemed to be the home run but if he vetoed a deal to DC what can we do. Jake Odorizzi is the one I am the most excited about and hopefully Escobar can show what made him a top 12 BA propsect.

[alnorth]

The deal is now complete. Jeffress has now been named as the PTBNL and has been told that he's been traded to KC.

[KChiefs1]

Keith Law says Royals got screwed on this deal.

[Lex Luthor]

All of the haters are acting like the Royals just traded away Roy Halladay or Roger Clemens in his prime.

They traded away Zack freaking Greinke. He's a head case with a personality disorder who can't be counted on for anything in the long run. He had one great season, but the fact is that he has pitched in the major leagues for SEVEN seasons, and he had ONE, count'em ONE, great season. And in his great season he won 16 games.

He was hell-bent to leave Kansas City, despite the fact that the Royals stuck with him when he walked away from the game. He made it much more difficult for the Royals to get the best deal possible for him by telling the world he wanted out of Kansas City.

Zack Greinke is a punk and a f*cking idiot. He has a beautiful wife, he's a multi-millionaire, and he gets to play baseball for a living. Despite all of that, he isn't happy. He knows he doesn't want to play for a losing team like the Royals, but he is too much of a chickenshit to play for a really big market team like the Yankees. His emotional problems give him the biggest potential downside of any "ace" pitcher in the game.

I'm thrilled that in one fell swoop Dayton Moore was able to (1) dump Greinke's ass, (2) dump Yuniesky Betancourt, (3) pick up a starting shortstop, (4) pick up a starting center fielder, (5) pick up a very good pitching prospect, and (6) dump Greinke's ass (that's worth saying again).

Greinke is the most overrated pitcher in baseball. Good riddance to him.

[alnorth]

Keith Law says Royals got screwed on this deal.

yeah, they are lining up on both sides now. Rany, Rosenthal, and Goldstein all like it, Keith Law does not like it.

The potential does exist that the Royals could win the trade but its not a sure thing.

[DeezNutz]

It's a shit trade on paper, and even those who like it are pretty lukewarm.

[alnorth]

The Royals rotation next year is going to be utterly horrid. Those stud minor league pitchers cant get here fast enough.

[doomy3]

The deal is now complete. Jeffress has now been named as the PTBNL and has been told that he's been traded to KC.

I like Jeffress in this deal. I actually think he gives us the flexibility to move Soria now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jeffress becomes the closer and we get a positional player and a starter for Soria.

[alnorth]

We've got an awful lot of outfielders for 2011.

Gordon, Frenchy, Cain, Maier, Blanco, etc

[alnorth]

I like Jeffress in this deal. I actually think he gives us the flexibility to move Soria now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jeffress becomes the closer and we get a positional player and a starter for Soria.

Soria is going nowhere. He's locked up to an extremely club-friendly deal for what almost looks like forever. (2014?) He also believes in the minor leagues and wants to be here for 2012.

[ChiefsCountry]

We've got an awful lot of outfielders for 2011.

Gordon, Frenchy, Cain, Maier, Blanco, etc

You forgot Milkey.

[Lex Luthor]

Soria is going nowhere. He's locked up to an extremely club-friendly deal for what almost looks like forever. (2014?) He also believes in the minor leagues and wants to be here for 2012.
Exactly. That's the major difference between Soria and Greinke, and why Soria is so much more valuable to this team.

[duncan_idaho]

We've got an awful lot of outfielders for 2011.

Gordon, Frenchy, Cain, Maier, Blanco, etc

I think the Mitch Maier experiment is over. His below-average ass will be out of baseball shortly.

[alnorth]

Exactly. That's the major difference between Soria and Greinke, and why Soria is so much more valuable to this team.

If anyone is looking to buy a jersey that wont be obsolete in 3 years, your best bet is now the Mexicutioner. Last time I bought one, it didn't turn out too well. (Teahen)

[chiefsnorth]

Royals' Greinke trade is a smart move
Ken Rosenthal, Fox Sports

Royals GM Dayton Moore got his wish: A shortstop, a center fielder, and at least one young pitcher who could help replace ace right-hander Zack Greinke.

The question is whether Moore could have acquired players with greater upside for Greinke and shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt.



But the entire industry knew the Royals had to trade Greinke, putting Moore in a difficult spot. He did not acquire an anchor, one rival exec said, but landed four good assets.



The Royals, sitting on perhaps the game’s deepest farm system, finally are close to a breakthrough.



The players they will receive — shortstop Alcides Escobar, center fielder Lorenzo Cain, right-hander Jake Odorizzi and a player to be named — are intended to complement the young talent already in place.



By 2012, the Royals could be a force in the AL Central, and don’t rule out the importance of the money they will save in this deal — $15.5 million this season and $13.5 million the next.



The Royals are a low-revenue club. They will never spend like the Yankees, Red Sox or even the Tigers. But suddenly, they have stunning financial flexibility — not a single player under long-term contract in '12.



By then, some of their ballyhooed left-handed pitching prospects will be in the major-league rotation and their infield could have a completely different look.



At first base: Eric Hosmer, the No. 3 overall pick in the 2008 draft.



At second: Cristian Colon, the No. 4 overall pick in 2010.



At short: Escobar.



At third: Mike Moustakas, the No. 2 overall pick in 2007.



Escobar might never be more than a No. 8 or No. 9 hitter, but his defense should be a tremendous asset, particularly given Moustakas’ limited range at third.



Colon was drafted as a shortstop, but his range profiles better at second and the Royals believe he could develop into a player similar to Placido Polanco.



The Royals’ outfield is less set, which is why Moore so badly wanted Cain as part of the Greinke package.



Cain, who turns 25 on April 13, has a lengthy injury history and limited major-league experience but shows immense promise. The Royals believe that Cain, like Escobar, will improve offensively. But at worst, both will provide strong up-the-middle defense, which is vital behind a young pitching staff.



Odorizzi, 20, was the 32nd overall pick in 2008 and perhaps the Brewers best pitching prospect. He has yet to pitch above Class A but could develop into a No. 2 or 3 starter or power reliever, adding to the Royals’ powerful stable of young arms.



Right-hander Jeremy Jeffress, 23, could be the player to be named. He has tested positive three times for marijuana, according to published reports, but seemed to turn around his career last season, finally surfacing in the majors as a reliever.



Would the Royals be better with Greinke? Of course. But Greinke was not going to be with them beyond 2012.



The Royals, moving forward, should be just fine without him.

[DeezNutz]

I like Jeffress in this deal. I actually think he gives us the flexibility to move Soria now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jeffress becomes the closer and we get a positional player and a starter for Soria.

A player who is one strike away from being out of baseball? I sincerely hope not.

[Jimhoopie]

This is another payroll trade no matter how they try to spin it.

[alnorth]

A player who is one strike away from being out of baseball? I sincerely hope not.

Again, he is not a strike away. He's not under the MiLB testing system any more, and MLB doesnt care as much about MJ.

[alnorth]

This is another payroll trade no matter how they try to spin it.

No, its not. You are ignorant if you think this is about money.

[doomy3]

A player who is one strike away from being out of baseball? I sincerely hope not.

I don't think MLB even tests for weed. Could be wrong, but I think that is a MiLB thing only.

[DeezNutz]

Again, he is not a strike away. He's not under the MiLB testing system any more, and MLB doesnt care as much about MJ.

My fault.

Smoke it if you got it.

[duncan_idaho]

A player who is one strike away from being out of baseball? I sincerely hope not.

He's one strike away from being removed from MiLB. MLB does not test for marijuana. That's why the Brewers added him to the 40-man to begin with.

And to the guy calling this a payroll trade... that's ridiculous.

[Jimhoopie]

You know I just turned off my cable because I got sick of them raising prices. My only concern was watching the Royals. But after 20 years of watching them trade away their top talent for prospects I'm close to turning my back on them forever. I've been a fan since 1975 and my mother loved this team. It's really probably the only reason I still care. But I am sick of being a farm club. It's pathetic when Milwaukee is outspending us. Glass sucks.

[Lex Luthor]

This is another payroll trade no matter how they try to spin it.
Don't be an idiot. Greinke was going to walk in 2 years, and he would have been a cancer in the clubhouse if they hadn't traded him.

When a guy REALLY doesn't want to be here, there's not a hell of a lot you can do.

[Jimhoopie]

He's one strike away from being removed from MiLB. MLB does not test for marijuana. That's why the Brewers added him to the 40-man to begin with.

And to the guy calling this a payroll trade... that's ridiculous.

You know I used to believe that they were making smart trades to make the team better. But at what point do prospects begin to pay dividends? The answer in KC is right before we trade them.

[alnorth]

It's pathetic when Milwaukee is outspending us. Glass sucks.

The Brewers demanded that we send them an extra $2MM so they could afford to pay Yuni's buyout next year.

This is not about money, its about a player not wanting to wait until 2012 when we might be pretty good, and getting the best we can for him.

[Jimhoopie]

Don't be an idiot. Greinke was going to walk in 2 years, and he would have been a cancer in the clubhouse if they hadn't traded him.

When a guy REALLY doesn't want to be here, there's not a hell of a lot you can do.

You're right. And why would he be gone in 2 years. Because we are too cheap to give him the $$ he will command. That's why it's a payroll trade. Wake up people.

[KC_Connection]

Again, he is not a strike away. He's not under the MiLB testing system any more, and MLB doesnt care as much about MJ.
Does the MLB even test for it at all?

Edit: Ah, I see somebody else answered this. I figured they didn't.

[alnorth]

You're right. And why would he be gone in 2 years. Because we are too cheap to give him the $$ he will command. That's why it's a payroll trade. Wake up people.

You are completely uninformed. We wanted to give him a big contract, he didnt want to stay.

If you are that pessimistic, get out. I'm sure the Royals will still be willing to sell you a ticket when they are in first place in 2013.

[Oso]

Because we are too cheap to give him the $$ he will command.
Yes, that's it.

[BillSelfsTrophycase]

At least we won't have to watch the utter clusterfuck that was the Yuni-bomber at short anymore

Pretty "meh" trade

[ChiefsCountry]

This is the first time the Royals have traded a big name player where money wasn't the reason why.

[jbwm89]

IMO not a terrible haul, a couple solid pieces with upside. Not the motherload I was hoping for however.

[KC_Connection]

This is certainly quantity over quality. There are no can’t miss prospects and no blue-chip, young stars. You have a raw, potential No. 2 or 3 starter, an eighth- or ninth-inning reliever, a slick-fielding, light-hitting infielder, and a speedy centerfielder with contact issues. I would rather have infielder Brett Lawrie, whom Milwaukee recently sent to Toronto for pitcher Shaun Marcum, than any of the four players in the Greinke deal.

In comparison, the Blue Jays organization was faced with a similar trade demand last winter with veteran ace Roy Halladay. Philadelphia ended up giving away a potential No. 1 or 2 pitcher in Kyle Drabek, promising catcher Travis d’Arnaud, and outfielder Michael Taylor, who was flipped to Oakland for first baseman Brett Wallace, who was later flipped to Houston for outfielder Anthony Gose (who ironically was acquired from Philly). Neither deal was a great haul for the team receiving prospects back and the Milwaukee package edges Toronto’s because there is one more prospect headed to the Brewers and both Escobar and Cain have MLB experience… although Toronto received the prospect (Drabek) with the highest ceiling out of all the young players that changed hands.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/kansas-city-nabs-four-young-players-for-greinke/

[KevB]

You know I just turned off my cable because I got sick of them raising prices. My only concern was watching the Royals. But after 20 years of watching them trade away their top talent for prospects I'm close to turning my back on them forever. I've been a fan since 1975 and my mother loved this team. It's really probably the only reason I still care. But I am sick of being a farm club. It's pathetic when Milwaukee is outspending us. Glass sucks.

This isn't the same as past years, but if you read any of this thread, you should already be educated enough to understand that.

[teedubya]

Time to trade Soria, now, I guess. Eff it. Get rid of anything with value.

[alnorth]

Joaquin Arias has been DFA'd to make room. Press conference scheduled at 4pm.

[siberian khatru]

Joaquin Arias has been DFA'd to make room. Press conference scheduled at 4pm.

DAMMIT IT JUST BOUGHT AN ARIAS JERSEY

[DeezNutz]

Time to trade Soria, now, I guess. Eff it. Get rid of anything with value.

If the mid-season reports were true about what we could have received at the deadline, it's a mistake that this player is still on the roster.

[alnorth]

Goldstein ranks Jeffress as #8, Odorizzi as #9 in the Royals minor league system. Royals minor league system is now one of the greatest in modern baseball history.

[DeezNutz]

Wow. Shocked that Jeffress is ranked so highly.

[ChiefsCountry]

Royals minor league system is now one of the greatest in modern baseball history.

You gotta think it won't be all busts. Just playing by the numbers, it just can't.

[doomy3]

Goldstein ranks Jeffress as #8, Odorizzi as #9 in the Royals minor league system. Royals minor league system is now one of the greatest in modern baseball history.

That's pretty awesome. I honestly can't believe people are up in arms over this return.

[teedubya]

If the mid-season reports were true about what we could have received at the deadline, it's a mistake that this player is still on the roster.

What was the "haul"?

[doomy3]

What was the "haul"?

Some package centered around Montero with the Yankees.

[alnorth]

Goldstein threw his report on both players into his free blog since they cant be included in the Brewers report and the KC report was already published.

Jake Odorizzi, RHP
DOB: 3/27/90
Height/Weight: 6-2/175
Bats/Throws: R/R
Drafted/Signed: Supplemental first round, 2008, Highland HS (IL)
2010 Stats: 3.43 ERA (120.2-99-40-135) at Low-A (23 G)
Best/Worst Tool: Fastball/changeup

Year in Review: This 2008 first-round pick was among the Midwest League's best pitchers in his full-season debut.
The Good: Odorizzi has few weaknesses. He's highly athletic with silky-smooth mechanics, and he pounds the strike zone with a low-90s fastball that consistently touches 94-95 when he rears back for something extra. He's refined his power breaking ball into a true swing-and-miss offering, and with the combination of above-average command and two plus pitches, he had more strikeouts than innings in 15 of 23 outings.
The Bad: Odorizzi's changeup continues to improve, but it still lags behind the rest of his arsenal. He doesn't have the size or projection of an elite-level starter, and some believe he has already maxed out physically.
Ephemera: Odorizzi's worst start of the year occurred on August 16th when he allowed six runs to Cedar Rapids without getting out of the fifth inning. In his next outing he pitched eight no-hit innings against the same team.
Perfect World Projection: Odorizzi has the highest ceiling of any pitcher in the Brewers system, and could turn into a borderline second starter if everything works out.
ETA: 2013.

While he was the top starting pitching prospect in the Brewers system, and will be in the Top 101 prospects, he's suddenly the fifth-best pitching prospect in a loaded Royals system. I'd slot him as the eighth-best prospect in an updated Royals Top 11, which is amazing considering that he'd be an easy top-three selection in most organizations.

Jeremy Jeffress, RHP
DOB: 9/21/87
Height/Weight: 6-0/195
Bats/Throws: R/R
Drafted/Signed: First round, 2006, Halifax County HS (VA)
2010 Stats: 0.00 ERA (8.0-0-3-14) at Low-A (5 G); 5.40 ERA (10.0-10-7-14) at High-A (8 G); 1.26 ERA (14.1-8-2-15) at Double-A (11 G); 2.70 ERA (10.0-8-6-8) at MLB (10 G)
Best/Worst Tool: Velocity/command

Year in Review: Oft-troubled first-round pick returned from a 100-game suspension, starting throwing strikes, and moved from Low-A to the big leagues.
The Good: Few pitchers in baseball can match Jeffress' ability to light up a radar gun, as in short stints he routinely hits triple digits and has been clocked as high as 102 mph. Beyond the heater, he adds a plus power curveball that can be unhittable when he's throwing it for strikes. He's ultra-athletic with an easy, loose arm action.
The Bad: Throwing strikes has been an issue throughout Jeffress' career, and he started to slip again late in the season, with particular troubles in the Arizona Fall League. His suspensions for drug use are well documented, and getting added to the 40-man roster may had said as much about the Brewers need to keep him from the death penalty (union members are not tested for marijuana) as his talent.
Ephemera: During his five-game stint in the Midwest League, Midwest League hitters facing Jeffress went 0-for-24 with 14 strikeouts.
Perfect World Projection: When he's throwing strikes, he looks like a potential elite-level closer.
Path to the Big Leagues: Milwaukee has considered trying Jeffress once again as a starter, an interesting decision considering his only consistent success has come out of the pen. He could open the year in the big leagues, or in the Triple-A rotation.
ETA: 2011.

Jeffress slots in at No. 8 in and updated Royals Top 11, moving Odorizzi down to No. 9. An utterly decimated Brewers Top 11 will be released on Tuesday.

[Jimhoopie]

You are completely uninformed. We wanted to give him a big contract, he didnt want to stay.

If you are that pessimistic, get out. I'm sure the Royals will still be willing to sell you a ticket when they are in first place in 2013.

Keep dreaming. I've been doing it for 25 years now. Sorry if I'm a bit skeptical. I've seen this all before. Mark Teahen was supposed to be great too.

[alnorth]

Keep dreaming. I've been doing it for 25 years now. Sorry if I'm a bit skeptical. I've seen this all before. Mark Teahen was supposed to be great too.

Not really. The Royals have never had a great minor league system in their entire history. Any assertion otherwise in previous years was hot gas being blown at you by a lancer.

19 of the last 20 #1 systems went to the playoffs within 7 years, and this Royals system is a hell of a lot better than almost all of those former #1's. The Royals minor league system is unbelievably loaded more than it ever has been.

[duncan_idaho]

Some package centered around Montero with the Yankees.

I think the package WAS Montero. Not a good enough return for a cheap, controlled, elite-level closer.

[DeezNutz]

I think the package WAS Montero. Not a good enough return for a cheap, controlled, elite-level closer.

Not true if Montero develops into an elite bat, as most assume he will.

Terrible teams don't need great closers. Complete waste, actually. It's a lot harder to find a power bat than to replace Soria.

[alnorth]

I think the package WAS Montero. Not a good enough return for a cheap, controlled, elite-level closer.

You know, even if we did get a credible offer, I'm drawing a line at Soria. I normally say no one is untradable if it improves the team, but Soria wont fetch all THAT much, and he wants to be here. I can understand shipping off Greinke after he starts whining, but if a good player wants to stay here, he should be allowed to stay unless we get something just utterly ridiculous.

[keg in kc]

The difference between now and the past is that when you say "the Royals might be good in a couple of years" it's because you know they have an insanely loaded farm system, and not because you've been drinking too much boulevard wheat.

[DeezNutz]

You know, even if we did get a credible offer, I'm drawing a line at Soria. I normally say no one is untradable if it improves the team, but Soria wont fetch all THAT much, and he wants to be here. I can understand shipping off Greinke after he starts whining, but if a good player wants to stay here, he should be allowed to stay unless we get something just utterly ridiculous.

Then we should still have DeJesus.

[Lex Luthor]

Time to trade Soria, now, I guess. Eff it. Get rid of anything with value.
Do you REALLY not understand the difference between Soria and Greinke?

[Lex Luthor]

Then we should still have DeJesus.

DeJesus had no power, no speed, and a career batting average of .289. 2010 was his best season, and he wound up with 5 home runs and 3 stolen bases.

Yeah, he was a great player. What a mistake to let him go.:spock:

[alnorth]

Then we should still have DeJesus.

I think I'd rather have Cain.

[teedubya]

Do you REALLY not understand the difference between Soria and Greinke?

It doesn't matter... fuck this team.

[Lex Luthor]

You know, even if we did get a credible offer, I'm drawing a line at Soria. I normally say no one is untradable if it improves the team, but Soria wont fetch all THAT much, and he wants to be here. I can understand shipping off Greinke after he starts whining, but if a good player wants to stay here, he should be allowed to stay unless we get something just utterly ridiculous.
Soria is the closest thing the Royals have to an untouchable player, for all of the reasons you mentioned.

Soria will be the Royals closer for the next 5 to 10 years.

[DeezNutz]

DeJesus had no power, no speed, and a career batting average of .289. 2010 was his best season, and he wound up with 5 home runs and 3 stolen bases.

Yeah, he was a great player. What a mistake to let him go.:spock:

DeJesus is a "good" ML player, and alnorth said "good" in his initial post.

[teedubya]

My two favorite Royals in the 2000's were Beltran and Greinke.

[DeezNutz]

I think I'd rather have Cain.

I'd rather have DeJesus than Frenchy, since I do not want the former in CF.

[Lex Luthor]

It doesn't matter... **** this team.
This team has the strongest farm system in the major leagues and by far the best group of prospects ready to come up at the same time. They have a chance to have a VERY GOOD team, starting in 2013. It's a pity that so many people don't understand that.

I bet you were pissed when they got rid of Jose Guillen, weren't you?

[WilliamTheIrish]

As far as I'm concerned the only + in this deal is Betancourt is gone. And he should be traded back to Cuba.

I'll warm up to it because they are all I have in baseball.

[Lex Luthor]

I'd rather have DeJesus than Frenchy, since I do not want the former in CF.
Yes, 5 home runs and 3 stolen bases would put this team over the top!

[alnorth]

I'd rather have DeJesus than Frenchy, since I do not want the former in CF.

true, comparing DDJ to Cain wasnt fair.

You got me there, we might win that deal but there shouldnt have been any urgency.

[teedubya]

This team has the strongest farm system in the major leagues and by far the best group of prospects ready to come up at the same time. They have a chance to have a VERY GOOD team, starting in 2013. It's a pity that so many people don't understand that.

I bet you were pissed when they got rid of Jose Guillen, weren't you?

Fuck you smart ass. Fuck Jose Guillen. I never wanted that assclown to begin with. Another strike on Dayton Moore.

This team may have the best farm system in the Milky Way... doesn't matter. The Royals franchise won't do shit with Glass and Moore.

[Lex Luthor]

My two favorite Royals in the 2000's were Beltran and Greinke.
Who cares?

My two favorite Royals in the 1970s were George Brett and Bret Saberhagen. They won't be on the team in 2011 either. You can't live in the past.

[DeezNutz]

Yeah, Sabes was fucking awesome in the late 70s.

[Lex Luthor]

**** you smart ass. **** Jose Guillen. I never wanted that assclown to begin with. Another strike on Dayton Moore.

This team may have the best farm system in the Milky Way... doesn't matter. The Royals franchise won't do shit with Glass and Moore.
So go root for the Cardinals then.

[teedubya]

Yeah, Sabes was ****ing awesome in the late 70s.

Yeah, me too. He was great in the 1978 ALCS vs the Yankees.

[Lex Luthor]

Yeah, Sabes was ****ing awesome in the late 70s.
All right, the 80s. Doesn't change the point.

[duncan_idaho]

Not true if Montero develops into an elite bat, as most assume he will.

Terrible teams don't need great closers. Complete waste, actually. It's a lot harder to find a power bat than to replace Soria.

And at the time of the supposed deal, Montero was OPSing like .700 and struggling severely with the glove, too.

If Soria was a short-timer in KC, I'd agree with trading him for Montero. But he's here for the long haul. He's elite at his position. He's locked up for several years and likely to resign at te end of those.

I think you've got more of a jones for montero than most, and that's a factor.

[teedubya]

So go root for the Cardinals then.

You can be one of the 11,000 out at the K, next year. Enjoy yourself.

Make sure to grab a 70s throwback Saberhagen jersey, genious.

[alnorth]

Didnt think I'd say this, but we really need to re-sign Chen, at least to 1 more year. He's not a great pitcher, but we have no alternatives yet.

[chuxtrux]

Yes, 5 home runs and 3 stolen bases would put this team over the top!

Yes, this team is stocked with guys who can give us an .827 OPS. There is clearly no room here for Dejesus. Dayton has an innate ability to find outfielders who can post a high OBP .... like frenchy!

[alnorth]

The Royals franchise won't do shit with Glass and Moore.

The Royals payroll was higher than a lot of teams this year, for all the good that did us. We spent a *LOT* more than Texas.

Money is not the problem anymore, now its plain old stupidity, which hopefully we've fixed.

[DeezNutz]

I think you've got more of a jones for montero than most, and that's a factor.

I won't deny this because I'm desperate for an impact bat.

Didnt think I'd say this, but we really need to re-sign Chen, at least to 1 more year. He's not a great pitcher, but we have no alternatives yet.

Absolutely. This deal needs to get done immediately.

[Lex Luthor]

You can be one of the 11,000 out at the K, next year. Enjoy yourself.

Make sure to grab a 70s throwback Saberhagen jersey, genious.
Can't help but laugh at a guy who tries to lay down some "genious" smack.
ROFL

[teedubya]

Can't help but laugh at a guy who tries to lay down some "genious" smack.
ROFL

Can't help but laugh at a guy who has NO idea about Chiefsplanet lexicon.

Your and idiot, moran.

[teedubya]

Didnt think I'd say this, but we really need to re-sign Chen, at least to 1 more year. He's not a great pitcher, but we have no alternatives yet.

Yes. He's like our #1 in 2011.

[Lex Luthor]

Can't help but laugh at a guy who has NO idea about Chiefsplanet lexicon.

Your and idiot, moran.
Holy shit. You really made me feel bad with that one!

[alnorth]

Holy shit. You really made me feel bad with that one!

As Adam Carolla often says: "if it doesnt make you money or make you happy, dont do it." Heated arguments on the internet with someone who refuses to see it your way usually just pisses you off.

[DJ's left nut]

3 things.

1) I actually like this trade for you guys more than I would a trade centered around Montero. I simply don't see where you play the guy. He's not a C and at some point you'll need to do more than just aquire assets. If you hope to build a winner, you have to start accumulating complementary parts. Montero appears to be a legitimate hitter and a potential difference maker - but where do you play him?

This trade gives you a couple more arms, including the power arms that you can use in your bullpen. Power pitching plays in October and if that kid can throw strikes, he's incredibly useful. It also gives you a CFer that can actually be a complete player at the major league level.

You didn't have a SS. I recommended you make a move on Brendan Ryan, but Escobar can be a very nice player in his own right. He hasn't hit well and it doesn't appear he's going to. But he has plus speed (which y'all could use more of) and a nice glove. And he certainly has some upside. He has the bat control to be a .300+ hitter and with his speed and defense, that's damn valuable.

2) This return is also an indictment on Moore's first several years. The "trade relievers for position players all day" crowd just doesn't look real bright right now. The Royals wanted Jeffers and Odorizi in part because of their upside but in part because these are guys that can play major roles in a major league bullpen right now. And if you're going to trade ZG, you need to bring in players that will contribute immediately lest you really piss your fans off.

When everyone was saying "they're just relievers" as Ramirez and Nunez were traded, they weren't looking at what that would do to the asset list for the organization. When Ramirez was busy putting up a sub 1 ERA for the WS champions and Leo Nunez was saving 30 games in Florida, Crisp and Jacobs were nowhere to be seen. Now you're making moves to replace power relievers that are still only in their late 20s.

You can never truly close the book on a bad trade and this trade shows why.

3) The Jays unquestionably got a better return for Halladay - but shouldn't they have? Halladay's the best pitcher in baseball and he had 5 strong years left. He's also a staff leader and bonafide ace. He's tough as nails and doesn't carry that 'headcase' tag with him. It's not fair to compare the two returns because Roy was absolutely the more valuable asset.

[Lex Luthor]

As Adam Carolla often says: "if it doesnt make you money or make you happy, dont do it." Heated arguments on the internet with someone who refuses to see it your way usually just pisses you off.
Good point.

[teedubya]

It just sucks being a Royals fan, no matter how you spin it. My son cried today when Greinke was traded. I feel for him, but it's my fault for "raising" him as a fan of the shitty Royals.

Sure, they may be good in 2-3 years. But they were supposed to "be good" from these youth movements several times in the past 2 decades... excuse me for being a bit cynical. I took the Rose colored glasses off, long ago.

[DeezNutz]

If this trade has anything to do with replacing power relievers, I hope Moore is in the process of being fired.

You absolutely shouldn't hesitate to move a reliever. The problem is that Moore made idiotic trades. But Ramirez is still damn near a wash because DM found him in the trash, so this was literally a situation of making something of nothing (again, until we butchered the trade).

If Odorizzi finds himself in the pen, it will be a disappointment.

[alnorth]

If this trade has anything to do with replacing power relievers

Well, obviously its not, thats silly.

[DeezNutz]

And if Montero becomes a "complementary part," he will have not lived up to his potential by a large margin. There is no such thing as a "complementary part" for the Royals right now because we don't have a core.

[alnorth]

The Royals wanted Jeffers and Odorizi in part because of their upside but in part because these are guys that can play major roles in a major league bullpen right now.

Ummm, no. Maybe Jeffers, but Odorizzi is an elite starting pitching prospect who is 3 years away.

[DJ's left nut]

Well, obviously its not, thats silly.

You don't think so?

I don't think Moore views Jeffers as a starter. I think he views him as what he hoped Farnsworth would be - a power setup man.

I don't think it was made exclusively to pick up a relief arm by any means, but I think part of what drew Moore to this deal as opposed to others (because I very much doubt that the Yankees or Rangers weren't pushing hard) was the possibility of getting possibly the hardest thrower in MiLB.

If Nunez and Ramirez are still in KC, I don't think he makes this deal, at least not in this form.

[DJ's left nut]

Ummm, no. Maybe Jeffers, but Odorizzi is an elite starting pitching prospect who is 3 years away.

Yeah, including Odorizzi in that discussion mostly muddled the point.

I was thinking Jeffers more than anything.

[DeezNutz]

I think Jeffers was the "that's nice" throw in, with Cain slightly in front of him.

This deal is all about Escobar and Odorizzi.

[alnorth]

You don't think so?

I don't think Moore views Jeffers as a starter. I think he views him as what he hoped Farnsworth would be - a power setup man.

I don't think it was made exclusively to pick up a relief arm by any means, but I think part of what drew Moore to this deal as opposed to others (because I very much doubt that the Yankees or Rangers weren't pushing hard) was the possibility of getting possibly the hardest thrower in MiLB.

If Nunez and Ramirez are still in KC, I don't think he makes this deal, at least not in this form.

No, I dont think so.

Jeffers is an elite reliever with a possibility of being a starter. He was also player #4 on this deal, the other three are not power relievers and they headline the deal.

[DJ's left nut]

No, I dont think so.

Jeffers is an elite reliever with a possibility of being a starter. He was also player #4 on this deal, the other three are not power relievers and they headline the deal.

When you're talking about a player of Greinke's caliber - is there any such thing as a throw in? Even if Jeffers was the guy that put the deal over the hump, doesn't that precisely prove my point? That the deal isn't made but/for Jeffers.

When you're Moore and you've watched your middle relief staff blow your team apart time and time again over the last two seasons, I think that is constantly in the back of your mind.

I think he's putting more weight in Jeffers than you're willing to concede.

[Lex Luthor]

If this trade has anything to do with replacing power relievers, I hope Moore is in the process of being fired.

You absolutely shouldn't hesitate to move a reliever. The problem is that Moore made idiotic trades. But Ramirez is still damn near a wash because DM found him in the trash, so this was literally a situation of making something of nothing (again, until we butchered the trade).

If Odorizzi finds himself in the pen, it will be a disappointment.
I think just about everyone agrees that Dayton Moore had an abysmal record of making trades at the major league level for his first several years here. Trading away Leo Nunez and trading for Jacobs and Betancourt had to be just about the stupidest things a general manager could do.

Moore pissed me off so much that for a long time I wanted him fired. But then when I look at what he's been able to do to build the minor league system, I realize that the guy CAN'T be a complete idiot. Face it, he did an amazing job, and building the strongest farm system in baseball is the exact right thing to do if you want to have any hope for long-term success for a small market team.

I think by far the best thing any Royals fan can hope for is that Dayton Moore finally figures it out at the major league level, quits making BAD trades, and starts making good ones. Getting rid of Guillen last season was a step in the right direction, and getting rid of Betancourt makes you think that Moore not only understands that it was a bad move to get him in the first place, but that he is also willing to correct the mistake. If he learns from his mistakes, more power to him.

[Fairplay]

There goes are playoff hopes.

[alnorth]

When you're talking about a player of Greinke's caliber - is there any such thing as a throw in? Even if Jeffers was the guy that put the deal over the hump, doesn't that precisely prove my point? That the deal isn't made but/for Jeffers.

When you're Moore and you've watched your middle relief staff blow your team apart time and time again over the last two seasons, I think that is constantly in the back of your mind.

I think he's putting more weight in Jeffers than you're willing to concede.

The problem with this line of thinking is we dont have a huge need for the bullpen. We have a crazy number of starting pitching prospects, but some of them are going to fail. We will inevitably have a good bullpen one way or the other.

So yeah, Jeffers was a throwin. The deal was for Escobar, Cain, and Odorizzi. The Royals were actually willing to do a deal for those three plus someone else (PTBNL), they investigated Jeffers drug record first before finally saying "ok, sure throw him in".

[Pitt Gorilla]

Ummm, no. Maybe Jeffers, but Odorizzi is an elite RIGHT HANDED starting pitching prospect who is 3 years away.FYP. We've got the lefties in the system.

[Lex Luthor]

The problem with this line of thinking is we dont have a huge need for the bullpen. We have a crazy number of starting pitching prospects, but some of them are going to fail. We will inevitably have a good bullpen one way or the other.

So yeah, Jeffers was a throwin. The deal was for Escobar, Cain, and Odorizzi. The Royals were actually willing to do a deal for those three plus someone else (PTBNL), they investigated Jeffers drug record first before finally saying "ok, sure throw him in".
That was the flaw in Dayton Moore's thinking that led him to trade away Ramirez and Nunez: he thought he could always find relievers, so there was no need to hang on to the good ones.

I don't think your bullpen can ever be too deep.

[DeezNutz]

Odorizzi was the key to the deal, IMO, because of the recent struggles of Melville and Crow.

[alnorth]

That was the flaw in Dayton Moore's thinking that led him to trade away Ramirez and Nunez: he thought he could always find relievers, so there was no need to hang on to the good ones.

I don't think your bullpen can ever be too deep.

I'm not saying he wasn't a moron a couple years ago. By all subjective and objective measures, those two trades from our BP were a big fat fail for Moore.

I just dont think he was trying to fix his screwups, a bullpen is really easy to fix.

If nothing else, if we are ready to roll in 2013 except the bullpen, we are going to have such an embarassing amount of money to spend we can just freaking buy a bullpen.

[ChiefsCountry]

I was talking to some Cardinal fans earlier today and they said Greinke would be the 4th starter in St. Louis. ROFL

[alnorth]

Jerry Crasnick (ESPN)

It will take time, of course, to hand out the grades for the two teams. But if Escobar and Cain are even average big league regulars, Moore probably did OK. And if Odorizzi builds on the potential he showed in 2010, when he was Milwaukee 's minor league pitcher of the year, or Jeffress works through his off-field issues and becomes an effective closer for Kansas City, Moore did better than OK.

[FloridaMan88]

The Royals are an absolute joke. I really don't care about the details behind this... about how allegedly the Royals FINALLY have the young talent in place in the farm system to make the team competitive in a few years, blah blah blah.

The thing is the Royals and their pathetic front office can't use the old "we are too poor, the system in baseball is too unfair for us to compete" excuse.

Look at Cincinnati, Minnesota, San Diego... and the team you just traded Greinke to (Milwaukee)... all small market teams with fixed payrolls who are winning.

[alnorth]

SI article:

The Royals came close to a trade with the Nationals earlier this winter, according to sources, but Greinke told the Royals he wouldn't go to Washington, halting those talks. The trade discussions with the Nats revolved around young right-hander Drew Storen, shortstop Daniel Espinosa and others, sources say. Greinke has expressed a desire to pitch for a winner and people familiar with his rejection of the Nats say he was not convinced they'd contend soon.

[alnorth]

The Royals are an absolute joke. I really don't care about the details behind this... about how allegedly the Royals FINALLY have the young talent in place in the farm system to make the team competitive in a few years, blah blah blah.

The thing is the Royals and their pathetic front office can't use the old "we are too poor, the system in baseball is too unfair for us to compete" excuse.

Look at Cincinnati, Minnesota, San Diego... and the team you just traded Greinke to (Milwaukee)... all small market teams with fixed payrolls who are winning.

I'm getting sick of the ignorance.

This wasnt about money, you fool.

[tk13]

You just aren't going to win these arguments. There's no point... but all the people will be jumping on the bandwagon like nothing happened if this team starts winning. People don't care about all the money spent in the draft, or Latin America, etc.