Andy Dalton sets up some private workouts.

[Direckshun]

One of those workouts is with... well, guess who.

http://nflbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/nflbuzz/source_highly_regarded_passer_shines_during_pro_day/4366846

Source: Highly regarded passer shines during pro day
2 days ago
by AdamCaplan

Former TCU QB Andy Dalton participated in the school’s pro day on Friday.

Dalton, according to one personnel source on hand, went 49 of 52, and two of the incompletions were dropped passes. Pro day performances shouldn’t be overvalued because they are a small part of the process, but he did quite well. And 39 of the passes were 17 yards or more.

On one throw, he rolled out right and completed a 60-yard pass on the run, which is important when you look at his arm strength. The one legitimate knock on Dalton is his perceived lack of ideal arm strength. However, there are certain times when he has shown better than expected power on his throws.

In an interesting aside to Dalton’s performance, WR Jeremy Kerley hit Dalton on a 50-yard pass on final passing drill. Kerley was a great high school baseball player. Kerley has an extremely strong arm from talking to personnel sources who studied him as a high school player.

During last month’s NFL Combine, Dalton connected on a few deeper sideline throws of more than 40 yards.

During this year’s Rose Bowl game against the University of Wisconsin, Dalton made several solid power throws, which opened some eyes of several personnel evaluators.

A source confirmed Dalton has upcoming private workouts scheduled with the Chicago Bears (Mar. 17), Kansas City Chiefs, Cleveland Browns (next week) and New England Patriots.

He’s also expected to visit the Cincinnati Bengals, Minnesota Vikings and Tennessee Titans among the teams that want to bring him in for a closer look.

[Wilson8]

I watched him in a couple of games this year and thought maybe he might be a good mid-round draft pick for the Chiefs. Watched him in the Senior Bowl practices and game and changed my mind. Watched him some more and still not convinced he will be a good NFL QB. Maybe Zorn could work with him and help him develop.

The Chiefs need to add 2 good QBs to their roster but really don't know the best solution.

I thought maybe Detroit's FA QB Drew Stanton, but he may have the same health problems of Brodie Croyle.

[Tribal Warfare]

This cat could be good in the right situation

[ChiefsCountry]

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[Saccopoo]

It's a trick offense and defense that they run at TCU, but it works and Dalton is a winner. The players rally around him and he never gives up. I don't think he's a pro bowl type of QB, but he's certainly not a bad guy to have on the roster. Todd Collins comes to mind actually.

[Tribal Warfare]

It's a trick offense and defense that they run at TCU, but it works and Dalton is a winner. The players rally around him and he never gives up. I don't think he's a pro bowl type of QB, but he's certainly not a bad guy to have on the roster. Todd Collins comes to mind actually.

or if he maxes out on his potential it could be Kurt Warner.

[Bewbies]

or if he maxes out on his potential it could be Kurt Warner.

A hall of famer? If he is a future hall of famer draft him in the 1st!

[Tribal Warfare]

A hall of famer? If he is a future hall of famer draft him in the 1st!

I said if he maxes out his potential, and if he's not the right system he won't be successful . Warner is a system guy himself.

[BigCatDaddy]

I said if he maxes out his potential, and if he's not the right system he won't be successful . Warner is a system guy himself.

Sign me up for that system. Give me the ball and get the hell out of the way is what I think they call it.

[ChiefsCountry]

Warner is a system guy himself.

Warner a system guy? He kicked ass in two totally different offensive schemes.

[Tribal Warfare]

Warner a system guy? He kicked ass in two totally different offensive schemes.

It took him till he was 27 to find the right one. He wasn't a HOF right out of the gate, the guy was bagging groceries till he found the right situation to be playing in. Dalton is the same type he could really flourish in the right system, or go into total obscurity into the wrong situation.

[BigCatDaddy]

It took him till he was 27 to find the right one. He wasn't a HOF right out of the gate, the guy was bagging groceries till he found the right situation to be playing in.

So what is your definition of a system QB? Was Warren Moon also a system QB?

When I think of a system QB, I think Texas Tech.

[Tribal Warfare]

So what is your definition of a system QB?

my definition of a system QB is a player who's talents accents a particular framework being run. for example Bill Walsh has said that to run his version of the west coast the QB should be like a quick point guard. if you look at that framework you'll see that most of the QBs excelled on quick timing routes, were mobile, and cerebral players. Warner wasn't the most mobile, or had the strongest arm, but excelled in what he was asked to do.

[BigCatDaddy]

my definition of a system QB is a player who's talents accents a particular framework being run. for example Bill Walsh has said that to run his version of the west coast the QB should be like a quick point guard. if you look at that framework you'll see that most of the QBs excelled on quick timing routes, were mobile, and cerebral players. Warner wasn't the most mobile, or had the strongest arm, but excelled in what he was asked to do.

Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever heard a HOF QB called a system guy before.

I would disagree on Warner's arm strength. He threw one of the best deep balls in recent memory IMO.

[Bewbies]

Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever heard a HOF QB called a system guy before.

I would disagree on Warner's arm strength. He threw one of the best deep balls in recent memory IMO.

Warner was one of the most accurate QB's I've ever seen. Loved watching him, even if he did play for teams I don't care about.

[BigCatDaddy]

Warner was one of the most accurate QB's I've ever seen. Loved watching him, even if he did play for teams I don't care about.

Him and Moon threw the most amazing perfect balls. I could jerk it watching a Warner or Moon spiral in flight.

[KurtCobain]

I like Dalton but I figure he'll go the way of Colt Brennan.

[Bewbies]

Him and Moon threw the most amazing perfect balls. I could jerk it watching a Warner or Moon spiral in flight.

Warren Moon was a lot of fun to watch too. Except in that playoff game where the Bills came back from down eleven billion to beat the Oilers.

[Quesadilla Joe]

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[milkman]

Warner a system guy? He kicked ass in two totally different offensive schemes.

You dare question the QB Whisperer?

[ChiefsCountry]

You dare question the QB Whisperer?

I don't get how Warner is a system QB when he played in Coryell system in St. Louis and the Earnharnt-Perkins system in Arizona. Thats two different styles. A system QB would be Trent Green.

[Tribal Warfare]

I don't get how Warner is a system QB when he played in Coryell system in St. Louis and the Earnharnt-Perkins system in Arizona. Thats two different styles. A system QB would be Trent Green.

as I said right situation, right system Warner failed with the NY Giants. Hence, he got a backup job at the Cardinals then succeeded after Dennis Green left and Whisenhunt came in when Leinart fell out of favor.

[milkman]

as I said right situation, right system Warner failed with the NY Giants. Hence, he got a backup job at the Cardinals then succeeded after Dennis Green left and Whisenhunt came in when Leinart fell out of favor.

Warner didn't fail with the Gaints, you dumbass.

The Giants were 5-4 with Warner starting, he completed over 60% of his passes for 2000 yards in a run first attack.

The Giants were simply not commited to Warner.

They were anxious to begin the Eli Manning era.

[Chiefnj2]

Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever heard a HOF QB called a system guy before.
.

Joe Montana?

[BigCatDaddy]

Joe Montana?

Does that mean Steve Young is a "System QB" then?

[Chiefnj2]

Does that mean Steve Young is a "System QB" then?

Yes.

[BigCatDaddy]

Yes.

Isn't every QB a system QB then since they for the most part play in systems tailor made to their talents?

[Chiefnj2]

Isn't every QB a system QB then since they for the most part play in systems tailor made to their talents?

To a degree. Some QB's have more versatility to play in more than 1 system. Unlike many Planeteers, I don't view "system QB" to be a bad thing.

[milkman]

Isn't every QB a system QB then since they for the most part play in systems tailor made to their talents?

Not really.

Brett Favre played in the west coast offense, which really wasn't tailor made for his talent.

The system that Terry Bradshaw played in Pittsburg changed through the years as different pieces were added and he adapted to the changes as they progressed.

[BigCatDaddy]

To a degree. Some QB's have more versatility to play in more than 1 system. Unlike many Planeteers, I don't view "system QB" to be a bad thing.

See I do. I view it as bashing on a guy for only putting up numbers because of a system. Again I refer to Texas Tech.

[DJ's left nut]

Kurt Warner is a system guy now?

I'm sorry, but that's just flat-ass ignorant.

Kurt Warner was an absolutely perfect pocket passer. He could throw every deep ball in the playbook, he could throw any intermediate route or quick-strike. He read defenses as well as anyone in the game and had an innate ability to know where his receivers would be and when they would be there.

The only thing he needed was time in the pocket. That pretty much makes him like every other quarterback to ever play the game. He wasn't a system quarterback, he just wasn't a scrambler - he was a pure passer.

By calling Kurt Warner a system quarterback, you've essentially eliminated the viability of the label. Kurt Warner's skill set made him capable of playing quarterback effectively in any offensive scheme in the NFL...unless he was asked to run the option. You couldn't have asked for more different passing attacks than the ones he ran in STL and Arizona. The only thing he ever needed to excel was health. When he had it, he kicked ass and took names.

If he's a system quarterback, there are about 10 QBs to ever play this game that aren't. Yeah - that's a handy label. How 'bout we just call those 10 "Uberbacks" and let it go? That makes a hell of a lot more sense than calling Kurt Warner a system guy.

"Kurt Warner: System Quarterback" may be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this board. It truly is asinine in every sense of the word.

[DJ's left nut]

Yes.

Wow.

We have a new contender for the stupidity crown - "Steve Young: System Quarterback"

You're right - highest passer rating in league history, uncanny accuracy, very strong down field passer, brilliant leadership and superb mobility. Total system guy - afterall, that's exactly like Matt Cassel and Cliff Kingsbury.

For fuck's sake - who isn't a system quarterback under these dumbass labels? I'm guessing we'd hear Peyton Manning and Tom Brady; that's it. In other words, you're a HOFer or you're a system guy.

If someone says Aaron Rodgers, they're out to lunch. Steve Young was Rodgers before Rodgers, and he was better at it than Aaron. Roethlisberger?

But that pre-supposes that I agree with your lame-ass definition of the term whereby you're either a guy that's capable of making your team 10 games better on your own (i.e. one of the 10 greatest quarterbacks to ever live) or you're a system quarterback.

You've ceased to provide any meaning to the term at this point.

[DJ's left nut]

To a degree. Some QB's have more versatility to play in more than 1 system. Unlike many Planeteers, I don't view "system QB" to be a bad thing.

You don't view "system QB" to mean anything.

Seriously, under your definition it essentially means you're not one of the 10 best to ever live, nor are you awful.

You could be a fringe HOFer like Kurt Warner or you could be a career backup like Todd Collins.

When that's the range of your definition, your definition means shit.

[Chiefnj2]

You don't view "system QB" to mean anything.

Seriously, under your definition it essentially means you're not one of the 10 best to ever live, nor are you awful.

You could be a fringe HOFer like Kurt Warner or you could be a career backup like Todd Collins.

When that's the range of your definition, your definition means shit.

It's a ridiculous term. Was Joe Montana a system QB? Was he used to run the west coast offense? Does the fact Montana specialized in one system mean he wasn't one of the best QB's in the league? Does it mean his Super Bowl wins mean less than a Brady or Rothlisberger? Not to me. Maybe to you.

[Quesadilla Joe]

Isn't every QB a system QB then since they for the most part play in systems tailor made to their talents?

All of them except John Elway.

[kc rush]

All I know is that if we want this kid we had better grab him in the first. It looks like he won't last past San Diego in the second.;)

[Tribal Warfare]

"Kurt Warner: System Quarterback" may be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this board. It truly is asinine in every sense of the word.

Okay, then why did it take him 5 years to get even noticed? Yes, he's a system's QB you can be a great QB and be system's QB. " a perfect pocket passer" well Bart Star a HOfer was a perfect pocket passer and a system's QB. If Warner was a stud from the start and can fit into any system, why didn't set the world ablaze day one when he was 22 years old? It's because he was in the wrong situation and wrong system to succeed.

[Saul Good]

Okay, then why did it take him 5 years to get even noticed? Yes, he's a system's QB you can be a great QB and be system's QB. " a perfect pocket passer" well Bart Star a HOfer was a perfect pocket passer and a system's QB. If Warner was a stud from the start and can fit into any system, why didn't set the world ablaze day one when he was 22 years old? It's because he was in the wrong situation and wrong system to succeed.

Why did it take Tom Brady so long? Why did it take Steve Young so long? Why did it take Brett Favre so long?

[Tribal Warfare]

Why did it take Tom Brady so long? Why did it take Steve Young so long? Why did it take Brett Favre so long?

These cats were all drafted, Steve originally was a top 5 pick, Brady was a project of Bellichick's, and Favre was hand picked by a system's coach.

Warner wasn't even drafted, and excelled years later in a system that fit his talents. Don't over glorify him, he's a great QB but his situation and systems he was put in were geared towards his talents. Why do you believe he was a backup for the Cardinals ? It's due to he fucked up with the Giants because of the situation and system.

[DJ's left nut]

Okay, then why did it take him 5 years to get even noticed? Yes, he's a system's QB you can be a great QB and be system's QB. " a perfect pocket passer" well Bart Star a HOfer was a perfect pocket passer and a system's QB. If Warner was a stud from the start and can fit into any system, why didn't set the world ablaze day one when he was 22 years old? It's because he was in the wrong situation and wrong system to succeed.

Why wasn't Richard Dent drafted until the 8th round? Why didn't Lenny Dawson explode out of the gates? That's a completely useless parallel. Draft position and talent are only marginally related in hindsight.

I'll give you credit though, your arguments sound better when they're simply false.

He didn't excel in "a" system, he excelled in 2 very very different systems and even played quite well in a 3rd. (Though I love how you're now trying to equate 'system' and 'situation' in an attempt to backpeddle out of the argument; nicely done)

And he didn't '**** up' with the Giants, he actually played quite well but the Giants wanted to go with the young gun. Y'know, kinda like when he was a 'backup' with the Cardinals when the front office handed the job to Leinart. You're acting like Leinart actually took it from him.

You're just factually inaccurate. Combined with the fact that your general definition of a system quarterback (which also somehow includes Bart Starr) makes it virtually impossible not to be a system quarterback, I'm left with no choice but to stand by my initial assertion.

You've just uttered one of the most ridiculous statements in the history of Chiefs Planet.

[Tribal Warfare]

Why wasn't Richard Dent drafted until the 8th round?

Your arguments sound better when they're simply false.

He didn't excel in "a" system, he excelled in 2 very very different systems and even played quite well in a 3rd. (Though I love how you're now trying to equate 'system' and 'situation' in an attempt to backpeddle out of the argument; nicely done)
.

How am I back peddling? Richard Dent was a totally different position, Warner is a system's guy in the same vein as Gannon it took them till their late 20's to early 30's to hone their talents to fit a specific type of system.

[DJ's left nut]

Again - please tell me who is not a system quarterback.

We've already established that Bart Starr is. And clearly Len Dawson, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner, Steve Young and evidently a slew of other Hall of Famers are. Not to mention luminaries such as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

So if we can range from Brad Johnson all the way to Bart Starr, please let me know who isn't a system quarterback. Kordell Stewart? Nah, obviously a system guy, put him in a west-coast scheme and he blows. Michael Vick? By your definition - also a system quarterback, put him in a coryell offense and watch him piss down his leg. Brett Favre? We've seen what happens when you try to put him in a read-oriented offense; it's not pretty. Dan Marino? Peyton Manning? Well wouldn't they be fucked if you decided to run a Wing-T? Steve Young? Well, he could probably run any offense ever designed, but I've been advised by Chiefsnj that he, too, is a system guy.

Your definition of a system quarterback is absolutely, unequivocally, astronomically, fucking retarded.

[DJ's left nut]

How am I back peddling? Richard Dent was a totally different position, Warner is a system's guy in the same vein as Gannon it took them till their late 20's to early 30's to hone their talents to fit a specific type of system.

No.

Warner just didn't get eyes on him. The absolute first time he ever got a chance to play (you'll recall he was behind another system quarterback in Brett Favre in GB), he set the world on fire.

He didn't bounce around. In fact he never really failed anywhere he ever went. He got a chance to play and immediately won a Super Bowl and 2 MVPs. Then he went to an entirely different system and performed admirably his first year there. Then he went to yet ANOTHER system and was a 2-time Pro bowler while dragging his team to yet another SB and cementing his legacy as a HOFer.

The only way you can refer to him as a 'system' quarterback is that he has to actually play in a system. He probably wouldn't be that good if you took 11 guys of random colors and creeds, threw them on a football field and said "Hey, see if you can get past those other 11 guys, you've got 60 minutes".

This is just a completely absurd argument.

[Brock]

These cats were all drafted, Steve originally was a top 5 pick, Brady was a project of Bellichick's, and Favre was hand picked by a system's coach.

Warner wasn't even drafted, and excelled years later in a system that fit his talents. Don't over glorify him, he's a great QB but his situation and systems he was put in were geared towards his talents. Why do you believe he was a backup for the Cardinals ? It's due to he fucked up with the Giants because of the situation and system.

LOL, fucking retarded.

[Tribal Warfare]

Again - please tell me who is not a system quarterback.

.

Your definition of a system quarterback is absolutely, unequivocally, astronomically, fucking retarded.


did I say Steve Young was a system's guy, I qualified that he was a top 5 pick and that was it.

okay my definition of a system's guy is an individual that can run the offensive framework to a T like a machine and he doesn't work outside the system. You are confusing game manager's and system QB's as one it seems.

what's your definition of a system's player?

[milkman]

I've said it before.

I'll say it again.

It scares the hell out of me that there are kids in a class room being taught by Tribal Warfare.

[DJ's left nut]

did I say Steve Young was a system's guy, I qualified that he was a top 5 pick and that was it.

okay my definition of a system's guy is an individual that can run the offensive framework to a T like a machine and he doesn't work outside the system. You are confusing game manager's and system QB's as one it seems.

what's your definition of a system's player?

One that relies on a set system to excel and who's performance would diminish significantly in the absence of that particular system. And in fact, your average player could step into that system and perform at a similar level.

Kurt Warner was an elite quarterback in a number of different systems, Jim Plunkett was not (but hey, he was drafted high!!). And when Matt Leinart tried to run the same system, he failed miserably. Bulger took the Greatest Show on Turf right off the rails.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Young, Marino, Elway, Dawson and Starr were most assuredly not system quarterbacks. They'd have been great quarterbacks in several different systems. Warner was, Starr and Dawson would've been due to their respective skill sets.

[Tribal Warfare]

One that relies on a set system to excel and who's performance would diminish significantly in the absence of that particular system. And in fact, your average player could step into that system and perform at a similar level.

Kurt Warner was an elite quarterback in a number of different systems, Jim Plunkett was not (but hey, he was drafted high!!). And when Matt Leinart tried to run the same system, he failed miserably. Bulger took the Greatest Show on Turf right off the rails.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Young, Marino, Elway, Dawson and Starr were most assuredly not system quarterbacks. They'd have been great quarterbacks in several different systems. Warner was, Starr and Dawson would've been due to their respective skill sets.

aah, I see several systems. a true non systems QB can perform in any system like Rothlesberger, Elway, Young, Tarkenton, and even Favre ect.. Marino ( one of my fav QBs ever) couldn't run the west coast because he wasn't mobile enough to do that.

[DJ's left nut]

aah, I see several systems. a true non systems QB can perform in any system like Rothlesberger, Elway, Young, Tarkenton, and even Favre ect.. Marino ( one of my fav QBs ever) couldn't run the west coast because he wasn't mobile enough to do that.

Marino wasn't a system quarterback either.

The fact that a system can be designed that works poorly for you doesn't mean there aren't 10 other systems in which you would flourish. That's why I made the absurd point regarding the Wing-T. Johnny Unitas is going to look pretty bad trying to run a triple-option; that doesn't make him a system quarterback any more than Marino's relative faults in a system like Shanahan ran.

Marino was very similar to Warner. No, he wasn't going to thrive in any system calling for mobility (nor would Manning, for that matter). But he would thrive in any passing scheme that called for a pocket passer.

[milkman]

The west coast system wasn't designed specifically for mobile QBs.

That was just a bonus.

It's design is to make the passing game an extension of the running game and creating mismatches underneath.

It requires multiple reads and accuracy.

If you think that Marino couldn't do that, you're a bigger fucking moron than I already thought you were.

[Tribal Warfare]

Marino wasn't a system quarterback either.

The fact that a system can be designed that works poorly for you doesn't mean there aren't 10 other systems in which you would flourish.



but he couldn't run the west coast, and I love Marino. As I said before a true non-systems QB can run any system. Now scheme diverse is a totally different subject.

[DJ's left nut]

but he couldn't run the west coast, and I love Marino. As I said before a true non-systems QB can run any system. Now scheme diverse is a totally different subject.

But again - we've now cast Peyton Manning as a system quarterback. He's not going to do well in a system requiring mobility either. In who's universe, apart from yours, is Peyton Manning a system quarterback?

What you're describing is a perfect quarterback and as I've noted, there have been maybe 5 guys versatile enough to fit that classification in the history of the league.

When your definition is that broad, it ceases defining anything. It's like trying to define something as "I dunno...stuff"; it just doesn't provide a usable label.

The term itself and the mechanics of the English language make your definition inaccurate. A system quarterback is one that depends on a system. Marino didn't depend on any one system, there just happened to be one he didn't excel at. Similar to Manning. Hell, Elway wouldn't have even been very good in a WC scheme.

Your definition just doesn't work.

[Tribal Warfare]

But again - we've now cast Peyton Manning as a system quarterback. He's not going to do well in a system requiring mobility either. In who's universe, apart from yours, is Peyton Manning a system quarterback?

What you're describing is a perfect quarterback and as I've noted, there have been maybe 5 guys versatile enough to fit that classification in the history of the league.

When your definition is that broad, it ceases defining anything. It's like trying to define something as "I dunno...stuff"; it just doesn't provide a usable label.

The term itself and the mechanics of the English language make your definition inaccurate. A system quarterback is one that depends on a system. Marino didn't depend on any one system, there just happened to be one he didn't excel at. Similar to Manning. Hell, Elway wouldn't have even been very good in a WC scheme.

Your definition just doesn't work.

Elway won 2 superbowls in the WCO. That's why their terms of system/scheme diverse and system specific are used , and again that's a totally different discussion that I don't want to get off on a tangent on like we already are. That's my definition of a systems guy because essentially a non-systems guy is practically the perfect QB. That's why they are rare and, are the uncatchable unicorn.

[Brock]

but he couldn't run the west coast, and I love Marino. As I said before a true non-systems QB can run any system. Now scheme diverse is a totally different subject.

Marino couldn't run the WCO? Ha ha, okay.

[Tribal Warfare]

Marino couldn't run the WCO? Ha ha, okay.

He couldn't because unless he could improve on his 5.4 burst the guy was too slow to pull it off. I already said what Walsh looked for in a WC QB.

[milkman]

He couldn't because unless he could improve on his 5.4 burst the guy was too slow to pull it off. I already said what Walsh looked for in a WC QB.

You don't have a ****ing clue.

Jim Druckenmiller was a guy that Walsh thought was a perfect fit for his system.

Mobility was not a a requirement for his system.

As I said earlier, his sytem required smart QBs with accuracy.

Stop making stupid shit up to support your bullshit.

[Brock]

He couldn't because unless he could improve on his 5.4 burst the guy was too slow to pull it off. I already said what Walsh looked for in a WC QB.

Elvis Grbac ran the WCO. Try and think before making stupid statements, plz.

[SAUTO]

Are you fucking kidding here?


Oh fuck I just looked at the user name. You aren't.

jesus I wish you were.

How am I back peddling? Richard Dent was a totally different position, Warner is a system's guy in the same vein as Gannon it took them till their late 20's to early 30's to hone their talents to fit a specific type of system.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tribal Warfare]

Elvis Grbac ran the WCO. Try and think before making stupid statements, plz.

and he was more mobile than Marino, the idea of the west coast was if you can't hit the quick read, the option of the QB running was a part of the gameplan. You should try to remember how Grbac played, he sucked as a QB but he was able to run. rolling out wasn't Marino's strongpoint, but he was still a badass though.

[Hammock Parties]

And so the next Matt Cassel was born.

[SAUTO]

and he was more mobile than Marino, the idea of the west coast was if you can't hit the quick read, the option of the QB running was a part of the gameplan. You should try to remember how Grbac played, he sucked as a QB but he was able to run.

Lol montana barely averaged 100 yards rushing a year.

Less than 7 yards a game.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

Lol montana barely averaged 100 yards rushing a year.

Less than 7 yards a game.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mobility encompasses more than simply rushing yards.

Getting out of the pocket, using your legs to extend plays and allowing the time to make plays with your arm.

Montana was great at that.

But the QB Whisperer's argument that the west coast system was designed specifically for the mobile QB is far from true.

[SAUTO]

I know. But montana wasn't the most mobile guy either. He could move well enough to extend the play but I would doubt he was much farr than marino and his 5.4 second burst. To quote the whispererMobility encompasses more than simply rushing yards.

Getting out of the pocket, using your legs to extend plays and allowing the time to make plays with your arm.

Montana was great at that.

But the QB Whisperer's argument that the west coast system was designed specifically for the mobile QB is far from true.
Posted via Mobile Device

[SAUTO]

And if you look he added the last sentence about rolling out after I was typing mypostMobility encompasses more than simply rushing yards.

Getting out of the pocket, using your legs to extend plays and allowing the time to make plays with your arm.

Montana was great at that.

But the QB Whisperer's argument that the west coast system was designed specifically for the mobile QB is far from true.
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

Bill Walsh started creating the west coast offense while the OC under Paul Brown with the Bengals with Ken Anderson as his QB.

Anderson's accuracy and ability to make quick decisions were the things that Walsh thought could make that an effective offense.

Anderson, however, was about as mobile as a one legged man chained to a light pole.

The QB Whisperer is just clueless.

[Hammock Parties]

I know. But montana wasn't the most mobile guy either.

He was extremely mobile and the offense was based around his mobility. He had amazing agility and body control. He had perhaps the most nimble feet for a QB in the NFL at the time.

That's why when Bill Walsh saw Jake Plummer, he compared him to Montana.

[milkman]

He was extremely mobile and the offense was based around his mobility. He had amazing agility and body control. He had perhaps the most nimble feet for a QB in the NFL at the time.

That's why when Bill Walsh saw Jake Plummer, he compared him to Montana.

Walsh tweaked his offense to utilize that mobility, but the fact still remains that the west coast offense was not designed specifically for a mobile QB.

[Reaper16]

I was all "Why does an Andy Dalton thread have close to 70 replies?" Now I know. It's because Tribal Warfare is the Rebecca Black's "Friday" of QB evaluators.

[Tribal Warfare]

I was all "Why does an Andy Dalton thread have close to 70 replies?" Now I know. It's because Tribal Warfare is the Rebecca Black's "Friday" of QB evaluators.

maybe :D

[Hammock Parties]

Walsh tweaked his offense to utilize that mobility, but the fact still remains that the west coast offense was not designed specifically for a mobile QB.

Not trying to get into that debate, I just laugh when retards say Montana wasn't mobile.

[Saccopoo]

Not trying to get into that debate, I just laugh when retards say Montana wasn't mobile.

But he was no Steve Young, that's for sure.

[Chiefnj2]

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Young, Marino, Elway, Dawson and Starr were most assuredly not system quarterbacks. They'd have been great quarterbacks in several different systems. Warner was, Starr and Dawson would've been due to their respective skill sets.

You think Manning or Marino could QB effectively in Pittsburgh where Ben is allowed to hold onto the ball, shrug off hits, take sacks and make things happen late in plays? Manning don't like pressure.

[jd1020]

You think Manning or Marino could QB effectively in Pittsburgh where Ben is allowed to hold onto the ball, shrug off hits, take sacks and make things happen late in plays? Manning don't like pressure.

Manning wouldnt hold onto the ball, shrug off hits, and play schoolyard football until someone gets open. He likes to read a defense, make adjustments, and get the ball out quick.

Why do people insist on bringing up the name Manning when attempting to make a point?

[Chiefnj2]

He likes to read a defense, make adjustments, and get the ball out quick.


Correct. That's the system he prefers. It's a different system than Pitt. If Pitt had Manning, they would tweak their offense - run a different system.

[jd1020]

Correct. That's the system he prefers. It's a different system than Pitt. If Pitt had Manning, they would tweak their offense - run a different system.

... You are retarded. It's not a system. Roethlisberger running around like a headless chicken isn't a designed scheme. He just does it because he can. I'm sure when Pitt is calling in the plays to Roethlisberger they tell him the story about the movie Little Giants and make it happen.

Manning calling audibles based on the defense is not a system.

Its the way they play QB.

[Chiefnj2]

... You are retarded. It's not a system. Roethlisberger running around like a headless chicken isn't a designed scheme. He just does it because he can.

It's accepted because of a risk/reward analysis by the coaching staff. Ben buys time and makes big plays. Why don't they ask him to line up and do 3 step drops like Manning?

Every offense, on every team is a "system" designed in large part around the QB's ability.

Do you go around saying Ware, Hali, Matthews and Suggs are just "system players" because they can't be plugged into a 4-3 defense and be just as effective?

[jd1020]

It's accepted because of a risk/reward analysis by the coaching staff. Ben buys time and makes big plays. Why don't they ask him to line up and do 3 step drops like Manning?

Every offense, on every team is a "system" designed in large part around the QB's ability.

Do you go around saying Ware, Hali, Matthews and Suggs are just "system players" because they can't be plugged into a 4-3 defense and be just as effective?

Fucking christ, just kill yourself.

[DJ's left nut]

You think Manning or Marino could QB effectively in Pittsburgh where Ben is allowed to hold onto the ball, shrug off hits, take sacks and make things happen late in plays? Manning don't like pressure.

Of course.

They would simply unload the ball. Manning through his intelligence and Marino through his release (still haven't seen anyone better at getting the ball out).

Do you really think the Pit offense is designed to have Roethlisberger standing there flat-footed? No, Roethlisberger just isn't a stellar decision-maker. I still love the guy, but that's absolutely a valid knock on him.

It's not 'the system' that makes Ben take those hits. It's his tentative decision-making and a porous offensive line. The offense isn't designed around him standing there holding the ball too long; it's simply a necessary evil due to the shortcomings of the Pittsburgh personnel and Ben. You now appear to be making the same faulty parallel as Tribal Warfare - a 'system' and a 'situation' are not the same thing.

Pittsburgh could absolutely run the exact same offense and Manning would just get the ball out sooner to compensate.

[Chiefnj2]

Of course.

Do you really think the Pit offense is designed to have Roethlisberger standing there flat-footed? No, Roethlisberger just isn't a stellar decision-maker. I still love the guy, but that's absolutely a valid knock on him.

.

I think Pitt has longer developing plays. One way to address the "porous offensive line" would be to have Ben take 3 with hot reads. They've made the decision not to incorporate those plays in large numbers.

[Brock]

I think Pitt has longer developing plays. One way to address the "porous offensive line" would be to have Ben take 3 with hot reads. They've made the decision not to incorporate those plays in large numbers.

Isn't it likely they did that because it isn't Ben's strength?

[Chiefnj2]

Isn't it likely they did that because it isn't Ben's strength?

Yes. That's my point. Even very good QB's are "system QB's" to a degree.

[DJ's left nut]

Yes. That's my point. Even very good QB's are "system QB's" to a degree.

Then you really have no point.

You're essentially trying to change the accepted definition of a label to make it meaningless. This is a term of art you're dealing with here. These have meanings and accepted definitions that are not hyper-technical. While we're on this topic - did you know that a 'Letter of Grace' is not actually written by a deity? Or that a 'southpaw' actually has a thumb and can throw while located as far north as Alaska? Damn, think of the mischief we've avoided by addressing this confusion...phew.

If you'd like to go around labeling squirrels as 'dogs' and then argue that all dogs can climb trees, more power to you.

As it stands, you're just making a nothing argument based on useless semantics that does very little to contribute to any legitimate debate.

[BigCatDaddy]

Taken from Urban dictionary and I like this definition

"A system quarterback is one who is perceived to be successful but not extraordinarily talented. The term was originally meant to diminish the inflated statistics of players who run spread offenses.

Essentially, it meant the players had strong numbers because they ran an effective offensive "system" rather than being extraordinarily talented.

The implication is that they can win when surrounded by strong talent, but were less of a prospect at the professional level. It is becoming less of a negative tag, as more teams use offensive systems rather than relying on a star.

The opposite of a system quarterback would be a John Elway or Dan Marino who could win a game back the strength of their arm - with or without a strong system

Examples of system quarterbacks are 1989 Heisman Trophy winner Andre Ware of Houston (46 touchdowns, 4,699 yards senior year at Houston - was a pro washout); and Colt Brennan of Hawaii - drafted by the Washington Redskins"

[Chiefnj2]

Then you really have no point.

You're essentially trying to change the accepted definition of a label to make it meaningless. This is a term of art you're dealing with here. These have meanings and accepted definitions that are not hyper-technical. While we're on this topic - did you know that a 'Letter of Grace' is not actually written by a deity? Or that a 'southpaw' actually has a thumb and can throw while located as far north as Alaska? Damn, think of the mischief we've avoided by addressing this confusion...phew.

If you'd like to go around labeling squirrels as 'dogs' and then argue that all dogs can climb trees, more power to you.

As it stands, you're just making a nothing argument based on useless semantics that does very little to contribute to any legitimate debate.

The definition has been bastardized to diminish just about every QB. There was tons of talk of Brady being a system QB, or Trent Green being a QB, when the origins appear to be college QB's who ran a spread offense and not being able to make it in the NFL.

[SAUTO]

He was extremely mobile and the offense was based around his mobility. He had amazing agility and body control. He had perhaps the most nimble feet for a QB in the NFL at the time.

That's why when Bill Walsh saw Jake Plummer, he compared him to Montana.

but he was not a running qb.

which is what TW was inferring before he changed his post.

"threat of the QB running is what made it dangerous."

[SAUTO]

and he was more mobile than Marino, the idea of the west coast was if you can't hit the quick read, the option of the QB running was a part of the gameplan. You should try to remember how Grbac played, he sucked as a QB but he was able to run.

here is his post i was talking about

[DJ's left nut]

The definition has been bastardized to diminish just about every QB.

Indeed it has. By you.

The rest of us know better.

[Chiefnj2]

Indeed it has. By you.

The rest of us know better.

Is Brady a system QB? Trent Green? Joe Montana?

[BigCatDaddy]

Is Brady a system QB? Trent Green? Joe Montana?

No on all of the above.

[DJ's left nut]

Is Brady a system QB? Trent Green? Joe Montana?

Brady - no. He was successful within 2 systems on the same team (arguably in the same year). That team played a completely different brand of football with Randy Moss than without and he excelled at both of them.

Joe Montana - no. His 'noodle-arm' is vastly overstated. His arm was no worse than average, especially in his younger years. I remember clearly him putting some serious zip on the ball, especially over the middle. And he was probably the smartest quarterback to ever play - the WC offense emphasized his skills, but most assuredly didn't make them. He'd have been very good in virtually any system he played in. A system like the Eagle's ran last season would've been hard for him to excel at, but again, the existence of one system in which you aren't perfectly suited does not make you a 'system' quarterback. Under your definition it does, but not under any commonly accepted working definition of the term.

Trent Green - close call, in fact it's a very close call. Ultimately I'd say probably not due to that one year he had in Washington. He came off the bench as an untested kid and had a very good year in a Norv Turner offense that was aggressive, but not exactly Coryell (IIRC). That's actual empirical proof apart from my own hunch that he could excel in multiple, varied systems. As to my hunch, he was smart, he was accurate, he was mobile. His arm wasn't phenominal but it wasn't garbage either. That'll play anywhere, IMO. He's as borderline a case as you can make and would certainly listen to arguments either way. Ultimately, however, I believe he'd have been an above average quarterback in 75% of the systems you could have put him in.

He's not dependent on the right system to succeed, but rather dependent on the wrong system to fail. Under my definition, that's not a system quarterback.

[ChiefsCountry]

Brady - no. He was successful within 2 systems on the same team (arguably in the same year). That team played a completely different brand of football with Randy Moss than without and he excelled at both of them.

Joe Montana - no. His 'noodle-arm' is vastly overstated. His arm was no worse than average, especially in his younger years. I remember clearly him putting some serious zip on the ball, especially over the middle. And he was probably the smartest quarterback to ever play - the WC offense emphasized his skills, but most assuredly didn't make them. He'd have been very good in virtually any system he played in. A system like the Eagle's ran last season would've been hard for him to excel at, but again, the existence of one system in which you aren't perfectly suited does not make you a 'system' quarterback. Under your definition it does, but not under any commonly accepted working definition of the term.

Trent Green - close call, in fact it's a very close call. Ultimately I'd say probably not due to that one year he had in Washington. He came off the bench as an untested kid and had a very good year in a Norv Turner offense that was aggressive, but not exactly Coryell (IIRC). That's actual empirical proof apart from my own hunch that he could excel in multiple, varied systems. As to my hunch, he was smart, he was accurate, he was mobile. His arm wasn't phenominal but it wasn't garbage either. That'll play anywhere, IMO. He's as borderline a case as you can make and would certainly listen to arguments either way. Ultimately, however, I believe he'd have been an above average quarterback in 75% of the systems you could have put him in.

He's not dependent on the right system to succeed, but rather dependent on the wrong system to fail. Under my definition, that's not a system quarterback.

Actually Turner's offense is Coryell based.

[DJ's left nut]

Actually Turner's offense is Coryell based.

Yeah, I wasn't too sure.

So goes the empirical evidence, I suppose.

Like I said, Green's an incredibly close call in my eyes and ultimately, I'll listen to arguments either way. I just remember him going throw for throw with Manning in that playoff game (and they weren't easy little gimmick tosses either) and can't help but think he'd have been damn good in most systems he was asked to play in.

[BigCatDaddy]

Yeah, I wasn't too sure.

So goes the empirical evidence, I suppose.

Like I said, Green's an incredibly close call in my eyes and ultimately, I'll listen to arguments either way. I just remember him going throw for throw with Manning in that playoff game (and they weren't easy little gimmick tosses either) and can't help but think he'd have been damn good in most systems he was asked to play in.

He made every throw. Not always with a lot of zip, but with deadly accuaracy. I think he could pick apart a defense in any half asses normal scheme he was asked to run.

[Nightfyre]

Tom Brady is a system qb in my mind. The guys stats benefit tremendously from his short passes and RAC yardage (though admittedly I have not verified this by confirming the statistic.)

To address another argument, Marino would have been nails in a wco with his decision making and lightning fast release.

[DJ's left nut]

Tom Brady is a system qb in my mind. The guys stats benefit tremendously from his short passes and RAC yardage (though admittedly I have not verified this by confirming the statistic.)

To address another argument, Marino would have been nails in a wco with his decision making and lightning fast release.

But when Moss came on board, they didn't use that system and he set the record for TD passes in a season.

They became a much more downfield oriented passing attack rather than that quick, almost bubble-screenish, team they are without him.

Brady's career has been 4 distinctly different styles. His 'Game manager' beginning, his pinball period (where he had very few weapons but was able to put the ball all over the field), his Moss/downfield period and then last season where he was really having to hammer the underneath routes due to the limitations of his WR corps.

I don't see how you can say he's a system QB unless you're simply holdling Cassel's success in the same system against him. But to do that, you have to ignore the fact that Cassel's numbers were merely adequate in that system whereas Brady's were historic.

[DJ's left nut]

He made every throw. Not always with a lot of zip, but with deadly accuaracy. I think he could pick apart a defense in any half asses normal scheme he was asked to run.

See, that's the ultimate question: How accurate was Trent Green?

I won't go all the way to 'deadly' accurate. That's Phil Rivers. Trent Green had periods where he'd start sailing passes. Then he'd start putting them at people's feet. Green could get in zones where he was pinpoint, but I wouldn't say he was 'deadly accurate' outright. There was just too much inconsistency in there.

Green was very dependent on rhythm to remain accurate. When things got out of tilt, his accuracy suffered greatly for it. As such, I think he has to be considered a borderline case.

[Nightfyre]

But when Moss came on board, they didn't use that system and he set the record for TD passes in a season.

They became a much more downfield oriented passing attack rather than that quick, almost bubble-screenish, team they are without him.

Brady's career has been 4 distinctly different styles. His 'Game manager' beginning, his pinball period (where he had very few weapons but was able to put the ball all over the field), his Moss/downfield period and then last season where he was really having to hammer the underneath routes due to the limitations of his WR corps.

I don't see how you can say he's a system QB unless you're simply holdling Cassel's success in the same system against him. But to do that, you have to ignore the fact that Cassel's numbers were merely adequate in that system whereas Brady's were historic.

They did utilize moss differently, but that didn't change how they used their other wide receivers other than giving more room underneath the coverage. Additionally, I wouldn't call "game manager" a system. I'm not comparing him to cassel. I just don't think brady is half the qb outside of belichicks offense.

[DJ's left nut]

They did utilize moss differently, but that didn't change how they used their other wide receivers other than giving more room underneath the coverage. Additionally, I wouldn't call "game manager" a system. I'm not comparing him to cassel. I just don't think brady is half the qb outside of belichicks offense.

I disagree.

With Moss, they used their slot guys very much like conventional possession WRs. Welker was using space in the intermediate levels whenever he could and I'm wanting to say it was Gafney that was used as a deeper #2 threat (though I could be remembering that wrong).

Watching that offense after they steered away from Moss was night and day. It was almost like going from watching an Eagles game to watching a Missouri Tigers game. Their entire passing tree changed, as did the roles of the WRs in the system.

[bsp4444]

back to the topic at hand, the prospect of drafting Andy Dalton, after watching the video of him against San Diego State, I don't think too much of him. I didn't notice him ever looking off a defender. He throws a nice corner, or fade, but too many throws that would get picked off in the NFL. Just my opinion.

[Quesadilla Joe]

Trent Dilfer to Seattle ESPN Radio affiliate: "I can't tell you how much Aaron Rodgers I see in (TCU quarterback) Andy Dalton."

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/51376083995598850

[milkman]

I like Dalton, but I have reached the inevitable conclusion that Dilfer is a moron.