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chris
05-18-2011, 08:01 AM
Excellent point:

Is it “fair,” then, for the players to continue to insist on half of every dollar earned? Or is it “fair” to focus on total dollars to be paid, and to negotiate a “fair” amount based on that premise? In resolving those questions, the players and the NFLPA* must remember that precious few industries include a work force that dictates the amount of the gross revenue it will receive.



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/18/more-misplaced-rhetoric-from-de-smith/

More misplaced rhetoric from De Smith

Posted by Mike Florio on May 18, 2011, 8:55 AM EDT
NFL And Players Resume Mediation

Now that the mediation process has ended once again, a day after the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit dropped a strong hint that the ruling lifting the lockout will be overturned next month, NFLPA* executive director DeMaurice Smith has opted to take to the airwaves, not with words suggesting a willingness to compromise and negotiate, but with more rhetoric aimed at inflaming the fans (it probably won’t work) or holding the players together as a strong possibility of a missed game checks approaches (it possibly will work, but perhaps not for long). His initial comments during a Tuesday night visit with Maurice Jones-Drew and Bryan McGovern of Sirius NFL Radio’s Late Hits amounted a reiteration of the point that Smith made on Monday.

A point that we still can’t understand.

“First league in the history of sports that has ever sued to not play their game,” Smith said. “When we reach a time or a moment in history when a professional sports league is suing to not play football, we’re in a bad spot.”

Actually, the more accurate statement could be that when we reach a time or a moment in history when the chief of a professional sports union is so badly bastardizing the facts, we’re in a bad spot.

“What do you think as a fan when you learn that the league that you write a check to, the teams that you’ve done nothing but cheer for for years are now suing to not play the game that we all love?” Smith later said, once again pushing the premise that the league has “sued” to implement the lockout. It’s simply not true; the league isn’t suing anyone, yet. The league is reacting to the lawsuit filed by the players when faced with the likelihood of a lockout.

Anyone who gets it understands what’s happening. The players sued to lift the lockout because any deal negotiated while the players are playing and getting paid to play will be better for the players. The owners have resisted the effort to lift the lockout because any deal negotiated while the players aren’t playing and aren’t getting paid to play will be better for the league. Defending against the players’ lawsuit, however, does not and never will amount to “suing” to not play the game.

The fact that Smith would imperil his credibility so openly and so brazenly demonstrates, in our view, the desperation he’s currently feeling. Once the Eighth Circuit decides to allow the lockout to remain in place, the question becomes when, not if, the players will demand that a deal be finalized so that they can continue to play football. Perhaps Smith thinks that, if he can get the players sufficiently pissed at the owners based on embellished and/or false allegations, they’ll suck it up and go without weeks if not months of game checks.

“We’re hoping that the court lifts the lockout,” Smith added, “but to me this is a low point in sports when a league that is extremely profitable, at the height of revenue generation with a loyal following of fans for the last 60 years has made a decision that it is much better to force the players into a lockout because you know that it is designed to get them to take a deal that you otherwise couldn’t negotiate.”

But that’s why employers lock union employees out. And that’s what employees strike, as the NFL’s players did in 1982 and 1987. Withholding services and/or preventing folks from working applies leverage. The fact that, in this specific case, the notion of freezing the players out could be very effective doesn’t make it legally or morally wrong. The players may not like it, and the fans may not like it. Still, it’s no different from going on strike, and the players have never opted to refrain from striking out in deference to “the game” or its fans.

Eventually, the interview focused on what we believe to be the heart of the current dispute — whether the players will continue to get 50 cents of every dollar that passes through the cash register, even as those dollars exceed $10 billion per year and eventually approach $20 billion per year, and more. Smith speaks as if the continuation of the 50-percent share has become a birthright for the players. At some point, however, it becomes a fair business consideration for the owners to assess whether the players should continue to get half of an exponentially growing pie, especially in light of the players’ viable alternatives.

Indeed, Smith explained that he called the league’s March 11 offer the “worst deal in the history of sports” because it would have cut the players’ share from 50 percent to something less than 50 percent. “It was an easy call to say that it was the worst deal in history because from the day that we would have taken their offer it would have forever severed the players of the National Football League from a fair share of the revenue that we all know that they generate,” Smith said.

Smith continues to overlook the fact that, even if the percentages shrink, the total dollars paid to the players will continue to grow. So why doesn’t Smith ever acknowledge that? Probably because he fears that more than a few players would respond by saying, “So we’re still going to make more money each year? OK, we’re fine with that.”

Though the NFL isn’t the NFL without the players, the deeper question at this point is whether the NFL players are truly responsible for one half of the revenue of an ever-growing sport. The league has created, over a period of decades, the industry that is the NFL, with the teams and the logos and the colors and the TV contracts and the stadiums and everything else that allows the players to perform at the absolute highest level of the game. The fact that so many rookies wanted to bask in the glow of being drafted despite also being locked out confirms that the NFL has become, over time, a big deal. Though the NFL became a big deal in very large part because of the players, the teams and the league have worked together over an extended period of time to build the game into what it now is.

Is it “fair,” then, for the players to continue to insist on half of every dollar earned? Or is it “fair” to focus on total dollars to be paid, and to negotiate a “fair” amount based on that premise? In resolving those questions, the players and the NFLPA* must remember that precious few industries include a work force that dictates the amount of the gross revenue it will receive.

Again, we’re not taking sides. We believe that both the owners and the players need to be reasonable and fair, and to strike a deal that will restore long-term labor peace, a concept that has now faded deep into the rear-view mirror. Smith’s strategy of using tough talk based on embellished (at best) facts is, we fear, keeping that from happening. Given his background as a litigator and the strong emphasis that the NFLPA* has placed on pursuing leverage through the legal system, his words seem to be more focused on keeping his clients from getting weak-kneed as the possibility of a full season without football income approaches.

We welcome him to prove us wrong by ditching the rhetoric and finding a way to engage in meaningful negotiations aimed at a fair compromise for the owners and the players.

chris
05-18-2011, 08:02 AM
The business owners, who have taken the financial risk, have the right to opt-out and change the agreement. If the Players don't like it, go play in the CFL.

sedated
05-18-2011, 08:19 AM
The business owners, who have taken the financial risk, have the right to opt-out and change the agreement. If the Players don't like it, go play in the CFL.

There's not much financial risk in owning an NFL franchise. The players are the ones taking the physical risk, and fans don't pay $80 a ticket to watch the owners eat shrimp cocktail in their suite. The players just want to keep things going, they aren't demanding anything new.

Skyy God
05-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Florio, carrying water for the league? Say it ain't so.

Defending against the players’ lawsuit, however, does not and never will amount to “suing” to not play the game.

That's exactly the impact of arguing for the injunction, you puppet. Otherwise, there'd be free agency, presumably under the existing CBA.

Though the NFL isn’t the NFL without the players, the deeper question at this point is whether the NFL players are truly responsible for one half of the revenue of an ever-growing sport.

Only Florio and the CP owner fanboys believe fans Casey Printers vs. Jeff Garcia would be a ratings bonanza.

philfree
05-18-2011, 08:44 AM
Smith continues to overlook the fact that, even if the percentages shrink, the total dollars paid to the players will continue to grow. So why doesn’t Smith ever acknowledge that? Probably because he fears that more than a few players would respond by saying, “So we’re still going to make more money each year? OK, we’re fine with that.”



I addressed this a month or two ago and was met with something like "The Players will be making 20% less! Arrrrrr!"


PhilFree:arrow:

Dave Lane
05-18-2011, 08:49 AM
Florio, carrying water for the league? Say it ain't so.

"Defending against the players’ lawsuit, however, does not and never will amount to “suing” to not play the game."

That's exactly the impact of arguing for the injunction, f***tard.

No shit. I think both need to budge from their positions to one in the middle. I think the owners need the extra dollars to upgrade stadiums, but they are such smarmy lying sacks of shit I can't have any sympathy for them. The players are ready to return to workout and play today but I wish Upshaw was their rep instead of Smith who is too much of a dick himself.

Enough rhetoric lets get it settled period. Both sides will have to compromise.

Saul Good
05-18-2011, 08:49 AM
There's not much financial risk in owning an NFL franchise. The players are the ones taking the physical risk, and fans don't pay $80 a ticket to watch the owners eat shrimp cocktail in their suite. The players just want to keep things going, they aren't demanding anything new.

Yep. No risk in tying up a billion dollars and inking $60 million deals with guys like Jamarcus Russel.

philfree
05-18-2011, 08:56 AM
Yep. No risk in tying up a billion dollars and inking $60 million deals with guys like Jamarcus Russel.

What? I thought those Raiders games were always sold out.

If you want to talk risk just think about the $100million dollars Lamar Hunt was down at one point as he was building the AFL.

PhilFree:arrow:

Skyy God
05-18-2011, 08:58 AM
No shit. I think both need to budge from their positions to one in the middle. I think the owners need the extra dollars to upgrade stadiums, but they are such smarmy lying sacks of shit I can't have any sympathy for them. The players are ready to return to workout and play today but I wish Upshaw was their rep instead of Smith who is too much of a dick himself.

Enough rhetoric lets get it settled period. Both sides will have to compromise.

I think Upshaw worked as a player rep because he and Tags got along so well. Goodell is an entirely different creature, and Smith is just his equal/counterpart.

Skyy God
05-18-2011, 09:00 AM
What? I thought those Raiders games were always sold out.

If you want to talk risk just think about the $100million dollars Lamar Hunt was down at one point as he was building the AFL.

PhilFree:arrow:

Clark Hunt need to be reimbursed for the risk his oil scion daddy took 50 years ago. Reparations, and all that jazz.

chris
05-18-2011, 09:02 AM
I think Upshaw worked as a player rep because he and Tags got along so well. Goodell is an entirely different creature, and Smith is just his equal/counterpart.

Well said.

These lawyers are willing to drive the bus over the cliff to make their points.

philfree
05-18-2011, 09:04 AM
Clark Hunt need to be reimbursed for the risk his oil scion daddy took 50 years ago. Reparations, and all that jazz.

You should expand on that.


PhilFree:arrow:

Skyy God
05-18-2011, 09:08 AM
Well said.

These lawyers are willing to drive the bus over the cliff to make their points.

The cliff would be missing games, and I think the incentives of both sides are aligned to get a deal done before that point.

You're right, some lawyers would rather be right than smart. But lawyers work at the behest of their clients, and many a case is dragged on by clients that are unreasonable and unwilling to take good advice.

ChiefsCountry
05-18-2011, 09:08 AM
What? I thought those Raiders games were always sold out.

If you want to talk risk just think about the $100million dollars Lamar Hunt was down at one point as he was building the AFL.

PhilFree:arrow:

Thats not exactly true. It was no wear near that much money.

BigMeatballDave
05-18-2011, 09:09 AM
I'm getting sick of all this shit. Fuck them all!

siberian khatru
05-18-2011, 09:10 AM
I'm getting sick of all this shit.

I've paid very little attention to it. Can't muster the outrage over one side or the other. I just want my football delivered on time, without interruption.

Skyy God
05-18-2011, 09:11 AM
You should expand on that.


PhilFree:arrow:

Here's my expansion: it's sarcasm.

philfree
05-18-2011, 09:14 AM
Thats not exactly true. It was no wear near that much money.

Really? I was just going off the old story about it where Clarks daddy said they could do that for another 100 years or something like that.

How much was it then?


PhilFree:arrow:

Brock
05-18-2011, 09:20 AM
Great ass-kissing by Florio, as usual.

Amnorix
05-18-2011, 09:21 AM
Well said.

These lawyers are willing to drive the bus over the cliff to make their points.

Lawyers generally do what their clients want, but that's especially true as the sophistication of their clients' increases. You think a bunch of lawyers are pulling these clueless morons around by their nose? Are you out of your minds?

Dave Lane
05-18-2011, 09:33 AM
Lawyers generally do what their clients want, but that's especially true as the sophistication of their clients' increases. You think a bunch of lawyers are pulling these clueless morons around by their nose? Are you out of your minds?

I guarantee the lawyers WANT to string this out as long as possible to rack up massive fees. How much they can influence the process is debatable of course but I'll bet its far greater than you imagine.

patteeu
05-18-2011, 05:26 PM
Lawyers generally do what their clients want, but that's especially true as the sophistication of their clients' increases. You think a bunch of lawyers are pulling these clueless morons around by their nose? Are you out of your minds?

It's a lot harder to deny that the lawyers are pulling their clients around in a collective bargaining situation where the lawyer represents a wide variety of opinions (or similarly, in class action situations).

notorious
05-18-2011, 07:23 PM
I'm getting sick of all this shit. **** them all!

This.

Reerun_KC
05-18-2011, 07:33 PM
I dont give a shit about the owners or the players..

I just want football in the fall.

Players are disposable assets... Who cares about them, I sure dont... And the owners are the rich getting richer.. Dont give a fuck about them either.

Get your stupid crap together and lets have a football season.

BigMeatballDave
05-18-2011, 07:38 PM
The Owners and Players need a wake-up call.

Someone needs to remind them that the economy is shit and millions of people are out of work and they are throwing a hissy over millions of dollars. Which neither of them would miss.

Okie_Apparition
05-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Maybe the networks will kick the extra billion the owners want if they just play the season.

Ace Gunner
05-18-2011, 08:19 PM
I hope tom brady & the dozen or so others involved in this suit do go play in another league - I'm tired of this shit. I'd gladly go switch to another league. hell, I been following the local HS football team. fuk the NF fuking L

milkman
05-18-2011, 08:55 PM
I hope tom brady & the dozen or so others involved in this suit do go play in another league - I'm tired of this shit. I'd gladly go switch to another league. hell, I been following the local HS football team. fuk the NF fuking L

You are new here, so I'll tell you so that you know.

Bypassing the word filter is a bannable offense, and it has become a pretty big issue around her lately.

Ace Gunner
05-18-2011, 09:47 PM
oops.. noted. I write short, leave out letters when possible - unintended

CrazyPhuD
05-19-2011, 12:17 AM
You are new here, so I'll tell you so that you know.

Bypassing the word filter is a bannable offense, and it has become a pretty big issue around her lately.

Yep the moral of the story is don't frack with the fracking word filter.

CrazyPhuD
05-19-2011, 12:18 AM
BTW how is there a players rep when there is no union. Wouldn't there need to be a union to have say a players rep?

Dave Lane
05-19-2011, 12:29 AM
BTW how is there a players rep when there is no union. Wouldn't there need to be a union to have say a players rep?

Well technically the league as such doesn't exist at the moment. The NFL has no football employees at the moment and no contracts in force. SO the players union really is an association at the moment.

bevischief
05-19-2011, 06:40 AM
They both need to grow up.

MahiMike
05-19-2011, 07:17 AM
There's not much financial risk in owning an NFL franchise.

Really? Have you ever paid half a billion for a something? That's a lot of interest payments.

vailpass
05-19-2011, 10:06 AM
There's not much financial risk in owning an NFL franchise. The players are the ones taking the physical risk, and fans don't pay $80 a ticket to watch the owners eat shrimp cocktail in their suite. The players just want to keep things going, they aren't demanding anything new.

LMAO

vailpass
05-19-2011, 10:13 AM
The rap on Smith when he took over for Upshaw was that he is a much better litigator than a negotiator. Good for a corp. attorney but not for the head of your union, the guy whose #1 job is to negotiate your compensation package. This is proving to be sad but true. He wanted to take it to the courts and he got what he wanted.

Now he is losing the court decisions on which he based his strategy. He still has enough leverage via the $700 million and the threat of appealing to the 8th en banc to negotiate a solid deal if he had the skills to do so.

Instead he continues to try to litigate via the media and in so doing makes the players look worse every day. I can see where the players might not retains his services in the future. Smith is certainly no Upshaw.

beach tribe
05-19-2011, 10:28 AM
The rap on Smith when he took over for Upshaw was that he is a much better litigator than a negotiator. Good for a corp. attorney but not for the head of your union, the guy whose #1 job is to negotiate your compensation package. This is proving to be sad but true. He wanted to take it to the courts and he got what he wanted.

Now he is losing the court decisions on which he based his strategy. He still has enough leverage via the $700 million and the threat of appealing to the 8th en banc to negotiate a solid deal if he had the skills to do so.

Instead he continues to try to litigate via the media and in so doing makes the players look worse every day. I can see where the players might not retains his services in the future. Smith is certainly no Upshaw.

Plus he looks like turtle on crack.

vailpass
05-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Plus he looks like turtle on crack.

LMAO

jspchief
05-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Only Florio and the CP owner fanboys believe fans Casey Printers vs. Jeff Garcia would be a ratings bonanza.Bullshit. No one thinks anything remotely close to that. Stop being such a bitch.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
05-19-2011, 01:41 PM
I believe that if you let every player in the NFL go, refused to hire them back and started over with all new players in 2012, by 2017, you wouldn't notice the difference in the quality of play.

It took the AFL a bit to catch up with the NFL who had a 40 year head start, but they did. Why do people think that another Brady, Manning or Brees can't be found? Are they the ONLY people who can possibly play at a high level?

Of course not or we wouldn't draft new players every year.

Players are expendable.

BigMeatballDave
05-19-2011, 01:49 PM
I believe that if you let every player in the NFL go, refused to hire them back and started over with all new players in 2012, by 2017, you wouldn't notice the difference in the quality of play.

It took the AFL a bit to catch up with the NFL who had a 40 year head start, but they did. Why do people think that another Brady, Manning or Brees can't be found? Are they the ONLY people who can possibly play at a high level?

Of course not or we wouldn't draft new players every year.

Players are expendable. In the long term, it wouldnt matter. I think everyone agrees with this. 5 yrs is a long time, though. That would do some severe damage to this league.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
05-19-2011, 01:50 PM
In the long term, it wouldnt matter. I think everyone agrees with this. 5 yrs is a long time, though. That would do some severe damage to this league.

No disagreement. It would be a short-term disaster.

However, to say the players can't be replaced is hyperbolic. It just depends on how much pain the owners want to absorb to make their point.

milkman
05-19-2011, 08:04 PM
No disagreement. It would be a short-term disaster.

However, to say the players can't be replaced is hyperbolic. It just depends on how much pain the owners want to absorb to make their point.

This has been discussed several times.

There isn't much difference in talent between the bottom 2/3 of players on rosters, and the guys that just miss the cut, so the talent disparity wouldn't be all that noticable there.

However, you can not simply replace the Bradys, the Mannings, the Fitzgeralds, the Reeds, the Palomaulus, etc, at the top end of teh roster, and the disparity would be huge.

Casual fan won't watch, and while it may only take 5 years to replace that top tier talent, it would take much longer to get casual fan to return.

The profits that these owners are raking in would vanish.

Bugeater
05-19-2011, 08:13 PM
I believe that if you let every player in the NFL go, refused to hire them back and started over with all new players in 2012, by 2017, you wouldn't notice the difference in the quality of play.

It took the AFL a bit to catch up with the NFL who had a 40 year head start, but they did. Why do people think that another Brady, Manning or Brees can't be found? Are they the ONLY people who can possibly play at a high level?

Of course not or we wouldn't draft new players every year.

Players are expendable.
The players will cave before that happens. They need the money worse than the owners do.

Chiefshrink
05-19-2011, 09:09 PM
Well, like any negotiation deal that is absolutely HUGE in $$ being observed publically on a daily basis by millions of pissed off NFL fans, don't think for a moment this is not about ego and who blinks first. This has become a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE PISSING CONTEST that didn't need to be plain and simple.

Glad to see DeMaurice Smith is proving me right as he is starting to "community organize" the fans. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh :rolleyes:

Chiefshrink
05-19-2011, 09:10 PM
The players will cave before that happens. They need the money worse than the owners do.

This:thumb:

No way both sides leave 9-10 bil on the table:thumb:

Okie_Apparition
05-19-2011, 09:34 PM
Yes the players will cave. Then Laz & Chris will share a Times Square kiss