Buster Posey gets destroyed, Agent Jeff Barry whines

[OnTheWarpath15]

Completely clean play. I'm sure this guy would be whining like this had it happened to some fuckstick that plays for Pittsburgh.

ESPN discusses the play:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6592212&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

Video:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15201655&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_15201655

Giants catcher Buster Posey is awaiting word of just how serious he is hurt, after he apparently suffered a significant leg injury while blocking home plate in the 12th inning of San Francisco's game Wednesday night. But his agent is not waiting to lobby for change.

Posey suffered a broken bone in his ankle, according to a source, CSNBayArea.com reported Thursday.

Posey's agent, Jeff Berry, said Thursday morning he reached out to Joe Torre, leader of on-field operations for Major League Baseball, and raise the idea of changing the rules regarding plays at the plate. He also spoke with the players' union about the play.

Over time, it is has become accepted practice for catchers to block home plate, and for baserunners to launch themselves into catchers.

"You leave players way too vulnerable," Berry said. "I can tell you Major League Baseball is less than it was before [Posey's injury]. It's stupid. I don't know if this ends up leading to a rule change, but it should. The guy [at the plate] is too exposed.

"If you go helmet to helmet in the NFL, it's a $100,000 fine, but in baseball, you have a situation in which runners are [slamming into] fielders. It's brutal. It's borderline shocking. It just stinks for baseball. I'm going to call Major League Baseball and put this on the radar. Because it's just wrong."

Scott Cousins scored the go-ahead run in a brutal collision with Posey at home in the 12th inning, injuring the star catcher in a 7-6 loss to the Florida Marlins. Posey went for X-rays on his left ankle and the Giants said there would be no test results released until later Thursday, when he'll have an MRI exam.

"It's huge. He's one of the leaders of the team already and what he brings every day is something you can't replace," Giants right fielder Nate Schierholtz said. "I'm just hoping for the best. I couldn't really see what happened from out there. I was just hoping for the best. Maybe he got the wind knocked out of him or something."

Berry, in a statement issued Thursday after he'd contacted MLB and the players' union, said Posey was in front of home plate and never blocked the plate, while Cousins, who had room to slide, lowered his shoulder as he approached home.

"At [the] point of impact, all of Buster's body is still two feet in front of the plate leaving all of the plate exposed for the runner," Berry said.

The play came after the Giants rallied from four runs down in the ninth in one of the wildest nights of their young season.

The deciding play came when Emilio Bonifacio hit a shallow fly ball to right-center off Guillermo Mota (2-1) for the second out. Cousins tagged from third base on the sacrifice fly, beating the throw from Schierholtz and lowering his shoulder to slam into Posey for a clean -- albeit cringing -- hit on the reigning NL Rookie of the Year.

Cousins was safe as Posey never quite could corral the ball. Cousins, who attended the University of San Francisco, lives in the Bay Area and had almost a dozen friends and family in attendance, said he felt sorry for injuring Posey but believed it was a clean baseball play.

"I felt like he was blocking the dish. It's the go-ahead run to win the game, I got to do whatever I can to score," Cousins said. "I'm not trying to end anybody's season or anything like that. I just was trying to play hard and score the go-ahead run. He didn't say much and you could tell he was in pain.

"And when their manager, when Bruce (Bochy) came out, he was pretty frustrated. I didn't want to make things any more tense."

After several minutes of being attended to at the plate, with fans finally chanting "Posey! Posey!" he was helped off the field by two team trainers, holding his left leg and looking stunned.

"It's the toughest play in baseball. You hate to see it," Bochy said. "As a catcher you know what it's like, and you don't like it. Believe me. When I see him laying there, it's certainly not a good feeling."

Cousins said he felt for Posey and repeatedly mentioned that he wasn't trying to injure him. He said he would find a way to contact Posey to wish him well.

"It's a baseball play. I feel bad for Buster Posey, I really do," Cousins said. "I'm going to send a message over there to them."

[Blankey]

Yeah let's change a 100+ year old rule just because a young star broke his leg

[ClevelandBronco]

So is this Berry fag suggesting a fine? The threat of a fine wouldn't change that play.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

It's an unfortunate rule.... But if catchers can block the plate, then what can you do?

[thebrad84]

Watched the video. I agree that a player shouldn't be allowed to crush the catcher like that and have absolutely no intentions of doing so to be able to get to the plate. It was blatantly obvious that the runner slammed in to Posey with the only intention of preventing him from catching the ball. The only time a player should be able to run in to the catcher is if the catcher is completely blocking the entire plate and the runner is just trying to clear room so he can get to the plate. Would be tough to enforce I guess, but I suppose it would just be a judgement call made by the home plate ump.

[ClevelandBronco]

It's an unfortunate rule.... But if catchers can block the plate, then what can you do?

Allow the catcher to call for a fair catch, direct the runner to the dugout, and reconstruct the play using CGI that would determine the likelihood of the runner reaching the plate. If the software determines that the runner would have a 60% likelihood of scoring, his team would be awarded 0.6 runs. In fact, if this idea catches on, teams wouldn't really have to have any real players. It's in the game.

[DeezNutz]

The problem with that play is that Posey doesn't have the plate blocked completely. The back portion was exposed (not on purpose, mind you), so contact could have been avoided.

That said, if I'm the runner, I'm going to initiate contact in that situation.

[kstater]

His client could always get out of the way if he's afraid of getting hurt.

[Chief Roundup]

Cousins didn't do anything wrong. We have all seen worse collisions at home plate before. If they try and change the rules on playes at the plate then they better ready to change the rules for every bag. Because then you won't be able to try and break up a double play either. Rule needs to stay they way it is. It is up to the catcher to put himself in the proper position to make the play and not get injured.
Feel sorry for the guy but this is just part of the game.

[gblowfish]

I remember Bo Jackson totally destroying Orioles Catcher Rick Dempsey at home plate one night. Bo just killed him, sent the guy rolling head over heels almost back into the Royals Dugout.

And of course, the Pete Rose/Ray Fosse collision in the 1971 All Star game is legendary. It ruined Fosse's career.

[sedated]

According to someone on 810 this morning (I think Buster Olney), blocking the plate isn't really legal.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think it's a legitimate gripe and one I never really thought of. In football, the big "no-no" is launching yourself at an offensive player. I think what this guy did is a lot different than just plowing someone over. I don't think you should get tagged for helmet to helmet or anything like that. But I think if you leave your feet to launch at a catcher, that's something they should stop.

[Pitt Gorilla]

His client could always get out of the way if he's afraid of getting hurt.This. Don't block the freaking plate and you won't get hurt. It's pretty simple. Does this idiot think this is the first time this has ever happened?

[Mr. Laz]

this whole catcher vs runner thing doesn't really fit into baseball anyway.

Baseball is not a contact sport and yet in this one instance it's allowed?

i don't really care but it's kinda weird.

[Saul Good]

Its already against the rules. It just needs to be enforced correctly. Blocking bags shouldn't be allowed, and neither should plowing into the fielder (catcher, ss, etc.). Just enforce the rules. Either you beat the throw, or the throw beats you.

You can't mow over the first baseman, and he can't get in your way while he waits for the throw. If the batter gets in the catcher's way, its interference, but they let runners break up the double play by going after the shortstop. There's no reason for it.

[Pitt Gorilla]

The NFL should probably go to two hand touch. I mean, do you know how many RBs' careers are cut short due to hits?

[Chief Roundup]

I think it's a legitimate gripe and one I never really thought of. In football, the big "no-no" is launching yourself at an offensive player. I think what this guy did is a lot different than just plowing someone over. I don't think you should get tagged for helmet to helmet or anything like that. But I think if you leave your feet to launch at a catcher, that's something they should stop.

Well then you have to stop the players from trying to break up a double play at 2cd too. You know sliding in with thier spikes or sliding late and catching the defensive player up in the air and fliping him over.
Where would it ever stop.

[thebrad84]

Well then you have to stop the players from trying to break up a double play at 2cd too. You know sliding in with thier spikes or sliding late and catching the defensive player up in the air and fliping him over.
Where would it ever stop.

Well, wouldn't it stop if they just enforced the rules on those two scenarios? Those are the only two scenarios in baseball where they allow the runner to make contact with teh fielder and it not be deemed runner/player interference. Not sure when and why they started allowing it, but as someone above already stated, there are rules already in place that should make both scenarios against the rules. They just don't enforce them.

[DeezNutz]

Correct that you cannot block any base without the ball. The fielder is supposed to allow the runner access to the base. Here, Posey does this. He's absolutely not at fault.

[RockChalk]

Well, wouldn't it stop if they just enforced those two rules? Those are the only two scenarios in baseball where they allow the runner to make contact with teh fielder and it not be deemed runner/player interference. Not sure when and why they started allowing it, but as someone above already stated, there are rules already in place that should make both scenarios against the rules. They just don't enforce them.

If they started making contact illegal, the fielders would have to make some serious adjustments since they rarely are touching the base on force-outs anymore.

I'd love to somehow become a MLB umpire and just piss everyone off because I actually required an infielder to catch the ball and touch the base. No more courtesy out calls. Just one time, I want to see an umpire look at the fielder for a second, signal safe, then explain to the fielder that he never touched the base while possessing the ball.

[Chief Roundup]

Well, wouldn't it stop if they just enforced those two rules? Those are the only two scenarios in baseball where they allow the runner to make contact with teh fielder and it not be deemed runner/player interference. Not sure when and why they started allowing it, but as someone above already stated, there are rules already in place that should make both scenarios against the rules. They just don't enforce them.

The difference is at home there has to be a tag. As a runner you just going to give up and let them tag you when part of the rule is that they have to keep possession of the ball through the tag for it to be an out? At second the fielder has to have his foot on the bag. So by Rule you have to be in the way. As the runner you have to keep going full speed because you don't know when a fielder is going to make an error and you would be safe.

These professionals are taught this stuff from the time they start playing ball.

[thebrad84]

If they started making contact illegal, the fielders would have to make some serious adjustments since they rarely are touching the base on force-outs anymore.

I'd love to somehow become a MLB umpire and just piss everyone off because I actually required an infielder to catch the ball and touch the base. No more courtesy out calls. Just one time, I want to see an umpire look at the fielder for a second, signal safe, then explain to the fielder that he never touched the base while possessing the ball.

Completely agree with you. It has always pissed me off that SS are allowed to be within the vicinity of 2nd base and it be considered contact with the bag to make a force out. It is not how the rules are written but it has become an acceptable part of the game for some reason.

[Mr. Laz]

The difference is at home there has to be a tag. As a runner you just going to give up and let them tag you when part of the rule is that they have to keep possession of the ball through the tag for it to be an out? At second the fielder has to have his foot on the bag. So by Rule you have to be in the way. As the runner you have to keep going full speed because you don't know when a fielder is going to make an error and you would be safe.

These professionals are taught this stuff from the time they start playing ball.
at every base there has to be a tag unless it's a force play ... force plays work at home too when the bases are loaded. :shrug:

no rule difference other than the whole block/tackle thing because the catcher is wearing pads. You supposed to be able to take out the guy at 2nd during a double play too but the players decided that it wasn't worth it.

[RockChalk]

Completely agree with you. It has always pissed me off that SS are allowed to be within the vicinity of 2nd base and it be considered contact with the bag to make a force out. It is not how the rules are written but it has become an acceptable part of the game for some reason.

For me, it's not only 2B. Happens at 1B a lot as well (not counting stretch plays). On plays that are routine outs, I notice a lot of first-basemen stepping off as the ball is almost to them. Umps always call the runner out.

[thebrad84]

The difference is at home there has to be a tag. As a runner you just going to give up and let them tag you when part of the rule is that they have to keep possession of the ball through the tag for it to be an out? At second the fielder has to have his foot on the bag. So by Rule you have to be in the way. As the runner you have to keep going full speed because you don't know when a fielder is going to make an error and you would be safe.

These professionals are taught this stuff from the time they start playing ball.

As I previously stated, it would be enforced based on the players intent. There are many times in baseball where it is obvious that the player is intentionally over-sliding second base with intent to break up a double play and, as is the case with the Posey play, the players intent is to smash in to the catcher to prevent him from only catching the ball. Those plays, when blatantly obvious, should be consider runner interference based on how the rules are written and should be automatic outs. And the same would be true for the fielders intent. If the catcher intentionally blocks the runner's access to the bag, then it should be ruled interference by the fielder and the runner would be automatically safe. The rules are pretty straight forward in these scenarios if you ask me.

[RockChalk]

As I previously stated, it would be enforced based on the players intent. There are many times in baseball where it is obvious that the player is intentionally over-sliding second base with intent to break up a double play and, as is the case with the Posey play, the players intent is to smash in to the catcher to prevent him from only catching the ball. Those plays, when blatantly obvious, should be consider runner interference based on how the rules are written and should be automatic outs. And the same would be true for the fielders intent. If the catcher intentionally blocks the runner's access to the bag, then it should be ruled interference by the fielder and the runner would be automatically safe. The rules are pretty straight forward in these scenarios if you ask me.

Ed Hoculi should switch over to MLB. He would be the ideal umpire to explain this to the fans next time it happens.

[ClevelandBronco]

Ed Hoculi should switch over to MLB. He would be the ideal umpire to explain this to the fans next time it happens.

Ben Dreith.

[Pushead2]

catcher blocking the plate, runner trying to score.

Oh well, what's the problem again?

[wazu]

"It's huge. He's one of the leaders of the team already and what he brings every day is something you can't replace," Giants right fielder Nate Schierholtz said. "I'm just hoping for the best. I couldn't really see what happened from out there. I was just hoping for the best. Maybe he got the wind knocked out of him or something."

Note to Schierholtz: Sorry, but FYI when they carry you off the field with one leg dangling, it usually means more than you just got the wind knocked out of you.

[RockChalk]

catcher blocking the plate, runner trying to score.

Oh well, what's the problem again?

The problem is that Posey wasn't really blocking the plate. The runner goes out of his way to hit him.

[ClevelandBronco]

catcher blocking the plate, runner trying to score.

Oh well, what's the problem again?

Something, something, rules, something.

[RockChalk]

Note to Schierholtz: Sorry, but FYI when they carry you off the field with one leg dangling, it usually means more than you just got the wind knocked out of you.

Dude, the OF is like 225 feet away! Nate must be missing a few key brain cells.

[wazu]

The problem is that Posey wasn't really blocking the plate. The runner goes out of his way to hit him.

He was definitely blocking the plate. Did it require blowing him up? Maybe not, but if you're the baserunner making a split second decision you better do it just in case.

[RockChalk]

He was definitely blocking the plate. Did it require blowing him up? Maybe not, but if you're the baserunner making a split second decision you better do it just in case.

I guess I should watch the replay again. I watched it a few times this morning and saw him as only partially blocking.

[WV]

Could he have slid around....yes, is it his fault the catcher got hurt no way. You establish the collision to jar the ball loose, it's always been that way. Would there be an issue if Cousins had slid head first to avoid the tag and Posey drove his face in the dirt with his glove making the tag? Don't think so. Perspective is a tough thing....

[pr_capone]

You can't mow over the first baseman, and he can't get in your way while he waits for the throw.

Yes you can mow over the first baseman. If the fielder is in the base path, the runner is in no way obligated to avoid him. In fact, if the base runner leaves the path, he is called out.

[RockChalk]

Could he have slid around....yes, is it his fault the catcher got hurt no way. You establish the collision to jar the ball loose, it's always been that way. Would there be an issue if Cousins had slid head first to avoid the tag and Posey drove his face in the dirt with his glove making the tag? Don't think so. Perspective is a tough thing....

My problem is that the ball wasn't there yet. If a catcher wants to block the plate with the ball in hand, that's one thing. The runner should have free authority to smash him. But in this case, the ball wasn't there.

[ClevelandBronco]

I guess I should watch the replay again. I watched it a few times this morning and saw him as only partially blocking.

Looks to me as though Posey is thrusting himself (without the ball — oops) to his left into the path just before the collision. It also appears that the runner is thrusting himself to his left out of the path just prior to the collision. Both players are doing pretty much what I'd expect them to do.

[WV]

My problem is that the ball wasn't there yet. If a catcher wants to block the plate with the ball in hand, that's one thing. The runner should have free authority to smash him. But in this case, the ball wasn't there.

The ball was on the ground and Cousins didn't have anyway of knowing Posey didn't catch it.

[Chief Roundup]

I guess I should watch the replay again. I watched it a few times this morning and saw him as only partially blocking.

Partially is still blocking and when he gets the ball he is coming the rest of the way across.

[wazu]

My problem is that the ball wasn't there yet. If a catcher wants to block the plate with the ball in hand, that's one thing. The runner should have free authority to smash him. But in this case, the ball wasn't there.

If you crush him once the ball is already well in his hand it's too late and you're out anyway. That would be less defensible to me.

[RockChalk]

Partially is still blocking and when he gets the ball he is coming the rest of the way across.

OK. Watched it again. I'm on board with the collision then.

However, if he were not blocking the plate, and the runner goes out of his way to him, it should be illegal.

[Chief Roundup]

My problem is that the ball wasn't there yet. If a catcher wants to block the plate with the ball in hand, that's one thing. The runner should have free authority to smash him. But in this case, the ball wasn't there.

I am sure cousins was watching the catcher to see him reach for the ball which means the ball is there. And the Ball was there at the same time he got there. It was a bang bang play for sure.

[Chief Roundup]

If you crush him once the ball is already well in his hand it's too late and you're out anyway. That would be less defensible to me.

No, not if the catcher drops the ball from the collision. The cousins is safe.

[Valiant]

Its already against the rules. It just needs to be enforced correctly. Blocking bags shouldn't be allowed, and neither should plowing into the fielder (catcher, ss, etc.). Just enforce the rules. Either you beat the throw, or the throw beats you.

You can't mow over the first baseman, and he can't get in your way while he waits for the throw. If the batter gets in the catcher's way, its interference, but they let runners break up the double play by going after the shortstop. There's no reason for it.

If they change the rules it needs to be across the board. No swiping at the ball at first. No blocking at home. No plowing at home. No breaking up double plays.

[Simply Red]

emotional response. It's not the rules, for certain.

It's also not the 'head' region in question.

[KevB]

Yeah let's change a 100+ year old rule just because a young star broke his leg

Carlos Santana was also a young star who broke his leg doing the same thing last year. I'd say it's worth looking at.

[Bob Dole]

More pussification.

[Bowser]

There's always barber school.

[kcxiv]

from what i can see, the runner runs directly over the plate. Posey wasnt blocking it, but he was definitely above it. I call clean play.

Posey just have a freak accident. His leg just got caught under him. It sux that he got hurt, but i dont think the runner did anything wrong. He didnt move left or move right to make contact, dude just put his shoulder down and went directly for the plate.

[Bob Dole]

You can't mow over the first baseman...

Since when? If the first baseman is in the basepath or standing on the bag, he's fair fucking game.

[ClevelandBronco]

from what i can see, the runner runs directly over the plate.

He gets bounced back over the plate, but he's not heading directly at it in the moment before impact.

[wazu]

Since when? If the first baseman is in the basepath or standing on the bag, he's fair fucking game.

This is true. Little leaguers are even coached to do that if somebody is in the base path.

[pr_capone]

Since when? If the first baseman is in the basepath or standing on the bag, he's fair ****ing game.

post #36

Yes you can mow over the first baseman. If the fielder is in the base path, the runner is in no way obligated to avoid him. In fact, if the base runner leaves the path, he is called out.

[DeezNutz]

This is true. Little leaguers are even coached to do that if somebody is in the base path.

Any coach who instructs Little League players to do this should be ashamed.

[ClevelandBronco]

To me, this doesn't look like a guy headed directly to the plate.

[wazu]

Any coach who instructs Little League players to do this should be ashamed.

Okay - what advice would you give to a kid who is running from 1st to 2nd, but there is a player standing right in the base path? I can tell you the guidance given is pretty much unwaveringly to "run em over". (And on the flip side, "don't stand in the base path if you don't want to get run over.") If you can get around them, then obviously do that, but if you have to run outside the base path the ump is going to call you out.

[RockChalk]

To me, this doesn't look like a guy headed directly to the plate.

Thank you

[DeezNutz]

Okay - what advice would you give to a kid who is running from 1st to 2nd, but there is a player standing right in the base path? I can tell you the guidance given is pretty much unwaveringly to "run em over". (And on the flip side, "don't stand in the base path if you don't want to get run over.") If you can get around them, then obviously do that, but if you have to run outside the base path the ump is going to call you out.

Little League players should be taught to make contact and stop, which forces the obstruction call. No need to run anyone over with kids under 14, and coaches should reinforce this. All about fundamentals.

In high school, it's fair game.

[Chief Roundup]

To me, this doesn't look like a guy headed directly to the plate.

I can see where his arms and part of his upper body leans toward the catcher but look at his feet. They are still on the white line which is the basepath that he has to by rule stay on. In bracing for impact he has to choose where to hit the catcher. Looks like he was choosing the chest protector or padding to avoid truely hurting anyone. Keeping in mind the catcher has a lot of protective gear on.
Can't help but wonder if the gear on his leg, shin, and the ankle or heal protector kept his leg from moving to where it wouldn't of been as severe.

[RockChalk]

Little League players should be taught to make contact and stop, which forces the obstruction call. No need to run anyone over with kids under 14, and coaches should reinforce this. All about fundamentals.

In high school, it's fair game.

No, they should be taught to kill /Hardcore I was cut from my JV team Dad

[Chief Roundup]

Little League players should be taught to make contact and stop, which forces the obstruction call. No need to run anyone over with kids under 14, and coaches should reinforce this. All about fundamentals.

In high school, it's fair game.

Huh make contact and stop....When you are running as hard as you can I don't see how it is expected to stop that momentum.
Lets run hard for 89 feet and then stop in the last foot.

[DeezNutz]

Huh make contact and stop....When you are running as hard as you can I don't see how it is expected to stop that momentum.
Lets run hard for 89 feet and then stop in the last foot.

Contact in the middle of the base path. It's possible to make contact and not "run someone over," even if the player is going 100%.

At the base, the player should always be sliding. Yeah, sometimes contact is flat out unavoidable there, but it's easy to avoid "take out slides," which again have no place in Little League baseball.

[Chief Roundup]

Contact in the middle of the base path.

Not sure how you meant this part.
But if they are in the middle halfway between the bases then the runner is interfering with a play or the fielder is out of position and the runner advances safely.
If the fielder is in the middle of the base path in front of a base then you are not going to be able to go around then or try and lighten the contact. Send him a message to get out of the way for the next time.

[chiefzilla1501]

Huh make contact and stop....When you are running as hard as you can I don't see how it is expected to stop that momentum.
Lets run hard for 89 feet and then stop in the last foot.

I think rules should be different for catchers than shortstops because catchers have the gear to absorb it and it's just a common unwritten rule that a catcher should expect to be popped. And because the catcher has gear, that puts a runner at a severe disadvantage when a catcher is allowed to block out 95% of his angles.

What I have a problem with is, again, launching at a catcher. If you're going to hit a catcher, hit him upright and don't lead with your shoulder. It's not that much different from helmet to helmet contact in football. This hit was perfectly legal, but people should have a big problem with a guy running at full speed launching head/shoulder first into a catcher, and in this case, using a little forearm too. That's an easy way to get seriously hurt that can be avoided by a simple rule change.

[DeezNutz]

Not sure how you meant this part.
But if they are in the middle halfway between the bases then the runner is interfering with a play or the fielder is out of position and the runner advances safely.
If the fielder is in the middle of the base path in front of a base then you are not going to be able to go around then or try and lighten the contact. Send him a message to get out of the way for the next time.

I mean literally the middle of the base path. Second baseman sleeping, not involved in the play, and obstructs the runner.

Little Leaguers don't need to "send messages." If this stuff starts in high school, fine, but it shouldn't begin before this.

[chiefzilla1501]

Not sure how you meant this part.
But if they are in the middle halfway between the bases then the runner is interfering with a play or the fielder is out of position and the runner advances safely.
If the fielder is in the middle of the base path in front of a base then you are not going to be able to go around then or try and lighten the contact. Send him a message to get out of the way for the next time.

Yes, and I think that is perfectly legal too. It just doesn't happen very often if at all. Interfering with a player as he's fielding the ball... yes, that is definitely one where the runner should absolutely back off.

[chiefzilla1501]

I mean literally the middle of the base path. Second baseman sleeping, not involved in the play, and obstructs the runner.

Little Leaguers don't need to "send messages." If this stuff starts in high school, fine, but it shouldn't begin before this.

Yeah I don't know that this is taught at a young age. When I played little league, it was illegal to get to home plate and do anything but slide. I once went head up into home, didn't come close to plowing over the catcher and was called out.

[Chief Roundup]

I mean literally the middle of the base path. Second baseman sleeping, not involved in the play, and obstructs the runner.

Little Leaguers don't need to "send messages." If this stuff starts in high school, fine, but it shouldn't begin before this.

I am not talking about or worrying about Little Leagers here. They will all fall in line with what MLB does.

[DeezNutz]

I am not talking about or worrying about Little Leagers here. They will all fall in line with what MLB does.

I don't think that MLB should serve as a direct model for kids. I have zero problem with lighting up a catcher or middle infielder in the pros, but I have a big problem with kids doing either.

[Chief Roundup]

I don't think that MLB should serve as a direct model for kids. I have zero problem with lighting up a catcher or middle infielder in the pros, but I have a big problem with kids doing either.

I am sure that little league has its own rules for protecting the kids. But if it wasn't for the MLB there would be little to no interest in having little league.

[wazu]

I don't think that MLB should serve as a direct model for kids. I have zero problem with lighting up a catcher or middle infielder in the pros, but I have a big problem with kids doing either.

Thing is, I have yet to see it be an issue in little league. Kids usually don't have the weight, speed, or inertia to really hurt anybody. If I saw kids mowing each other down in the baselines and turning the sport generally violent/dangerous I would have an issue with it, but it doesn't seem to happen. Some of this is probably because kids are warned that the base runner will run them over if they don't stay out of the way. So they just get out of the way.

[Mr. Laz]

Thing is, I have yet to see it be an issue in little league. Kids usually don't have the weight, speed, or inertia to really hurt anybody. If I saw kids mowing each other down in the baselines and turning the sport generally violent/dangerous I would have an issue with it, but it doesn't seem to happen. Some of this is probably because kids are warned that the base runner will run them over if they don't stay out of the way. So they just get out of the way.
so it's ok to try and 'blast' someone as long as you can't

but if you can then you shouldn't?


:p

[Bob Dole]

Yeah I don't know that this is taught at a young age. When I played little league, it was illegal to get to home plate and do anything but slide. I once went head up into home, didn't come close to plowing over the catcher and was called out.

What year was that? Bob Dole launched an idiot first baseman who was standing on the bag in '77, and other than the pissed off mommy who came running on to the field from the stands, the only thing Bob Dole got was called safe after advancing to 2nd (because nobody else had sense to pick up the damned ball).

[Dave Lane]

The problem with that play is that Posey doesn't have the plate blocked completely. The back portion was exposed (not on purpose, mind you), so contact could have been avoided.

That said, if I'm the runner, I'm going to initiate contact in that situation.

That was a chickenshit play by the runner. He just launched his shoulder in to the catcher. Reminded me of Pete Rose / Ray Fosse. He could have slid. He he had helmet to helmet contact. That would be a fine in the NFL let alone MLB.

[Valiant]

I think rules should be different for catchers than shortstops because catchers have the gear to absorb it and it's just a common unwritten rule that a catcher should expect to be popped. And because the catcher has gear, that puts a runner at a severe disadvantage when a catcher is allowed to block out 95% of his angles.

What I have a problem with is, again, launching at a catcher. If you're going to hit a catcher, hit him upright and don't lead with your shoulder. It's not that much different from helmet to helmet contact in football. This hit was perfectly legal, but people should have a big problem with a guy running at full speed launching head/shoulder first into a catcher, and in this case, using a little forearm too. That's an easy way to get seriously hurt that can be avoided by a simple rule change.

Then they should not be allowed to block the plate. It is a simple rule change.

[pr_capone]

If the fielder is in the middle of the base path in front of a base then you are not going to be able to go around then or try and lighten the contact. Send him a message to get out of the way for the next time.

Yes, by all means. Give him a love tap in the 12th inning of a tied game when you represent the winning run and just hope the ball trickles out.

:spock:

[Chief Roundup]

Yes, by all means. Give him a love tap in the 12th inning of a tied game when you represent the winning run and just hope the ball trickles out.

:spock:

you need to do a little better reading I am and have been defending what Posey did. It is Deez Nutz that I was qouting and responding too.

[whoman69]

According to someone on 810 this morning (I think Buster Olney), blocking the plate isn't really legal.

That's true only if the catcher has the ball.

[alnorth]

Watched the play a couple times, I'm fine with it.

Facts: The runner ran in a straight line. He didn't go out of his way (ie run off the base path) to make contact with the catcher, he was on the chalk at all times. It is true that he lowered his shoulder and blew him up (made more contact) rather than slide, but he believed the catcher caught it and he had no choice.

Rules: The runner has an absolute right to the basepath at all times. This should not be changed, so rather than focusing on the runner, we should focus on the defense and consider whether the catcher should be banned from the basepath. (presumably he'd have to make a swipe tag) I believe the rules are fine as is. If we ban the catcher from the basepath, we make it too easy to score from 3rd, since its often not a force play (so the catcher must tag) and the throw is frequently a long one that can be slightly off-line causing him to either drift over and block the plate whether he wants to or not, or just let the runner cause him to not catch the throw and let other runners advance.

As far as "blocking the plate" goes, yes it is illegal to block the plate without the ball, but that is almost never applicable at home. In the rules, the defense is punished for blocking the plate when they don't have the ball. If the defense does have the ball and is trying to tag, he can block the plate, and the runner can try to slide in, or run him over if he's allowed to run through the bag (batter to 1st base, and 3rd to home, but it never happens at 1st because thats always a force play). If the catcher doesn't have the ball and is blocking the plate, yeah that is illegal obstruction, but who cares, if he doesn't have the ball the runner is obviously going to score, so its moot.

[kysirsoze]

I think the question here is less "was it legal" and more "should it be legal". It used to be legal to clothesline in the NFL. Same with helmet to helmet and spearing.

AFAIC this is not a big enough problem to change the rules. If there was a epedemic of injured catchers or runners then that would be different.

EDIT: Then again, pro sports often pay more attention when it happens to a star.

[alnorth]

I think the question here is less "was it legal" and more "should it be legal". It used to be legal to clothesline in the NFL. Same with helmet to helmet and spearing.

AFAIC this is not a big enough problem to change the rules. If there was a epedemic of injured catchers or runners then that would be different.

the problem is also that you cant make it illegal without significantly disadvantaging the offense or the defense. In baseball, the runner always has the absolute right to the basepath. Because of that, catchers try not to get in the way for their own health unless they have to. If you forbid them from blowing up the catcher using some sort of standard for determining excessive contact, then you'll have catchers defiantly, routinely, and fearlessly setting up impossible obstacle courses to be slid around. If you ban the catcher from the third base line when the runner is too close, you make it too easy to score.

It is what it is. It might be ugly, catchers might get hurt, fans of young promising catchers might be stunned on occasion, but there is no good solution to "fix" this "problem".

[veist]

I don't really like players launching at the catcher in general but Posey was clearly blocking the plate and he mostly got hurt because of bad footwork. Plus lets be honest, in today's game its not worth it to block the plate in fucking May.

[chiefzilla1501]

Then they should not be allowed to block the plate. It is a simple rule change.

If a guy is blocking your base path, then that gives license to punch him in the face? I know that's not what happened. BUt you see that you have to draw the line somewhere between what the baserunner can do to move him off the path and what he can't do.

There was nothing illegal about what the baserunner did. But in the future, it should be. When a guy blocks the plate, he should expect to get pummelled. But there is no reason to allow a "launch" hit as a legal hit. You have to protect the catchers. If it's illegal in football between two guys in pads, it should be illegal in baseball too.

[kysirsoze]

If a guy is blocking your base path, then that gives license to punch him in the face? I know that's not what happened. BUt you see that you have to draw the line somewhere between what the baserunner can do to move him off the path and what he can't do.

There was nothing illegal about what the baserunner did. But in the future, it should be. When a guy blocks the plate, he should expect to get pummelled. But there is no reason to allow a "launch" hit as a legal hit. You have to protect the catchers. If it's illegal in football between two guys in pads, it should be illegal in baseball too.

I would tend to agree with this. Leaving both feet is pretty excessive.

[ClevelandBronco]

If a guy is blocking your base path, then that gives license to punch him in the face? I know that's not what happened. BUt you see that you have to draw the line somewhere between what the baserunner can do to move him off the path and what he can't do.

There was nothing illegal about what the baserunner did. But in the future, it should be. When a guy blocks the plate, he should expect to get pummelled. But there is no reason to allow a "launch" hit as a legal hit. You have to protect the catchers. If it's illegal in football between two guys in pads, it should be illegal in baseball too.

This is a clean football hit. Hell, except for not having his feet planted, it's almost a textbook football hit.

Now, mind you, IMO his head should be on the other side of the catcher's body if he's going for the plate.

[alnorth]

If a guy is blocking your base path, then that gives license to punch him in the face?

sweet strawman. The moment a runner punches a catcher in the nose and the umpire just shrugs and says safe, then we can have that debate.

BUt you see that you have to draw the line somewhere between what the baserunner can do to move him off the path and what he can't do.

There was nothing illegal about what the baserunner did. But in the future, it should be. When a guy blocks the plate, he should expect to get pummelled. But there is no reason to allow a "launch" hit as a legal hit. You have to protect the catchers. If it's illegal in football between two guys in pads, it should be illegal in baseball too.

there was no launch. He ran in a straight line on the chalk, and lowered his shoulder. You cant even have a "no jumping head first" rule because people still want to slide head-first, and it could be hard to tell the difference between an aggressive slide and some kind of undesirable "launch".

It is what it is. You cant ban or regulate this situation away without significantly harming the offense or defense. There's nothing that can be done.

[alnorth]

I would tend to agree with this. Leaving both feet is pretty excessive.

hmm... ok, agreed. I think sliding head-first is stupid anyway. I hadn't thought of banning head-first slides to force all players to slide feet first like they should, but I'm on board with the head-first slide ban.

[kysirsoze]

there was no launch. He ran in a straight line on the chalk, and lowered his shoulder. You cant even have a "no jumping head first" rule because people still want to slide head-first, and it could be hard to tell the difference between an aggressive slide and some kind of undesirable "launch".

It is what it is. You cant ban or regulate this situation away without significantly harming the offense or defense. There's nothing that can be done.

I watched the video once this morning and don't recall it that well so I'll concede he didn't launch, but you don't think there's a difference between diving to slide and launching your shoulder into the catcher? I can see how on rare occassion there might be confusion, but I think it would usually be pretty clear. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough of these plays.

[kysirsoze]

hmm... ok, agreed. I think sliding head-first is stupid anyway. I hadn't thought of banning head-first slides to force all players to slide feet first like they should, but I'm on board with the head-first slide ban.

That would be ideal IMO but I think there is practically no chance of that change being made.

[alnorth]

I watched the video once this morning and don't recall it that well so I'll concede he didn't launch, but you don't think there's a difference between diving to slide and launching your shoulder into the catcher? I can see how on rare occassion there might be confusion, but I think it would usually be pretty clear. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough of these plays.

"launching your shoulder into the catcher" is the beginning of the (very stupid and baseball players shouldn't do it) head-first slide.

The catcher's in the way. The baseline belongs to the runner, the defense stands there at their own risk.

[Valiant]

If a guy is blocking your base path, then that gives license to punch him in the face? I know that's not what happened. BUt you see that you have to draw the line somewhere between what the baserunner can do to move him off the path and what he can't do.

There was nothing illegal about what the baserunner did. But in the future, it should be. When a guy blocks the plate, he should expect to get pummelled. But there is no reason to allow a "launch" hit as a legal hit. You have to protect the catchers. If it's illegal in football between two guys in pads, it should be illegal in baseball too.

Then stop protecting the plate, not being allowed to protect the plate would solve all the problems.. In the future it will solve everything.. It will protect both players if we are going to go this way.. Of course then as I said earlier, we will need to stop players swatting the ball away from first base, breaking up double plays as it is easy to hurt both players.. Hell even players running into the outfield wall to catch homers, you know how many players are hurt each year from that??

If each team were losing players or their catcher each year to this then there would be a valid point.. Shit happens..

[ClevelandBronco]

"launching your shoulder into the catcher" is the beginning of the (very stupid and baseball players shouldn't do it) head-first slide.

The catcher's in the way. The baseline belongs to the runner, the defense stands there at their own risk.

Look, I don't think I'd want Cousins to handle this any other way if I'm his manager, but this is not an attempt to slide.

[alnorth]

Look, I don't think I'd want Cousins to handle this any other way if I'm his manager, but this is not an attempt to slide.

of course its not, but im saying if we decree "thou shalt not lower thy shoulder into a catcher, but head-first slides are totally cool", then honest attempts at head-first slides where the runner isn't all that aware of where the catcher is, or where the catcher subtly moves into him mid-flight, which look somewhat different but not wildly different from this situation, will be viewed as 50/50 iffy attempts to wipe out the catcher.

Its been this way for literally more than 100 years. We dont have catchers dropping like flies. We do NOT have a big problem. There's no good way to "fix" this "problem", so just leave it be.

[ClevelandBronco]

of course its not, but im saying if we decree "thou shalt not lower thy shoulder into a catcher, but head-first slides are totally cool", then honest attempts at head-first slides where the runner isn't all that aware of where the catcher is, or where the catcher subtly moves into him mid-flight, which look somewhat different but not wildly different from this situation, will be viewed as 50/50 iffy attempts to wipe out the catcher.

Its been this way for literally more than 100 years. We dont have catchers dropping like flies. We do NOT have a big problem. There's no good way to "fix" this "problem", so just leave it be.

Yep.

[chiefzilla1501]

of course its not, but im saying if we decree "thou shalt not lower thy shoulder into a catcher, but head-first slides are totally cool", then honest attempts at head-first slides where the runner isn't all that aware of where the catcher is, or where the catcher subtly moves into him mid-flight, which look somewhat different but not wildly different from this situation, will be viewed as 50/50 iffy attempts to wipe out the catcher.

Its been this way for literally more than 100 years. We dont have catchers dropping like flies. We do NOT have a big problem. There's no good way to "fix" this "problem", so just leave it be.

There isn't a single competent baseball player in the world that would attempt a head-first slide by leading with his shoulder. The purpose of a slide is to glide through the base, not to barrel awkwardly over it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Then stop protecting the plate, not being allowed to protect the plate would solve all the problems.. In the future it will solve everything.. It will protect both players if we are going to go this way.. Of course then as I said earlier, we will need to stop players swatting the ball away from first base, breaking up double plays as it is easy to hurt both players.. Hell even players running into the outfield wall to catch homers, you know how many players are hurt each year from that??

If each team were losing players or their catcher each year to this then there would be a valid point.. Shit happens..

Asking a catcher to not block the plate would make it almost impossible to throw a guy out at home. Blocking the plate is a part of the game and a necessity.

There is no reason why a runner should be allowed to launch into a catcher. Like I said, I have no problem with a runner barrelling at a player at full speed and hitting the shit out of him. I have a really big problem when the player launches at the player and leads with his head and shoulder. It's illegal in football, a contact sport. Why wouldn't it be illegal in baseball?

[chiefzilla1501]

There isn't a single competent baseball player in the world that would attempt a head-first slide by leading with his shoulder. The purpose of a slide is to glide through the base, not to barrel awkwardly over it.

And by the way... the point doesn't make sense because head first slides are dangerous and leave the runner exposed to all kinds of injury. Barrelling into a defender is the exact opposite.

[BigMeatballDave]

His agent is a pussy. Fuck agents.

If you wanna be a Major League catcher, you better expect to get your dick knocked in the dirt from time to time.

[alnorth]

There isn't a single competent baseball player in the world that would attempt a head-first slide by leading with his shoulder. The purpose of a slide is to glide through the base, not to barrel awkwardly over it.

Take a video of a slide, done by many people over many angles, and stop the clip at about a tenth of a second in. A time where you know the runner is doing something other than running, but you aren't sure yet whether its a dive or something else. Often a shoulder lunge and an honest dive looks the same at that point. Often the catcher is way the hell in front of the plate trying to catch, block, and tag at the same time, in the runner's way.

Maybe with instant replay and the benefit of a wide audience with color commentary reaching a consensus, and multiple replays looking frame by frame with a poll to see if there's a 65%+ agreement, you might decide "he tried to slide/he tried to wipe out the catcher". Fine. But in real time with no replay, not so much.

Again, this is NOT a problem at all. We dont have catchers getting hurt all the time. Once or twice every few years sure, but not to the point where it rises to crisis levels, and there's no good way to change the rules without screwing the offense or defense.

Its been this way over 100 years, it can remain another 100 years. The catchers need to get smart about what they are doing in there and learn how to take a hit without blowing out a leg.

[alnorth]

I have a really big problem when the player launches at the player and leads with his head and shoulder. It's illegal in football, a contact sport. Why wouldn't it be illegal in baseball?

Leading with the shoulder sure as hell is legal in football, and if a baseball player is leading with the head thats basically a precurser to a head-first slide, so I dont see the problem.

[Just Passin' By]

It was a clean play all around, and it's how baseball should be played. Unfortunately, the catcher caught his leg underneath at just the wrong time. Shit happens.

[KC_Connection]

Getting hit like this is one of the many risks of being a catcher. Can't see what he's complaining about, no rules are going to be changed (as they shouldn't be).

The real question here is why the Giants even allow their most talented young player to play an incredibly risky, injury-prone position like catcher in the first place.

[chiefzilla1501]

Take a video of a slide, done by many people over many angles, and stop the clip at about a tenth of a second in. A time where you know the runner is doing something other than running, but you aren't sure yet whether its a dive or something else. Often a shoulder lunge and an honest dive looks the same at that point. Often the catcher is way the hell in front of the plate trying to catch, block, and tag at the same time, in the runner's way.

Maybe with instant replay and the benefit of a wide audience with color commentary reaching a consensus, and multiple replays looking frame by frame with a poll to see if there's a 65%+ agreement, you might decide "he tried to slide/he tried to wipe out the catcher". Fine. But in real time with no replay, not so much.

Again, this is NOT a problem at all. We dont have catchers getting hurt all the time. Once or twice every few years sure, but not to the point where it rises to crisis levels, and there's no good way to change the rules without screwing the offense or defense.

Its been this way over 100 years, it can remain another 100 years. The catchers need to get smart about what they are doing in there and learn how to take a hit without blowing out a leg.

The reasson catchers don't get hurt all the time is because it doesn't happen all that much. But this could set a dangerous precedent. You keep saying you can't distinguish between a head first slide and a kill shot? Really? When you slide first, you extend your arms out, you don't tuck them in. And your body is mostly parallel to the ground, not sideways to it. If posey moved out of the way, this guy would have landed on his shoulder and barrel rolled. That's not a slide.if the runner launches head first, parallel to the ground, he's not going to get any kind of hit impact. If anything, the runner is the one who will get hurt.

And I'm saying I have no problem hitting the shit out of the catcher. But there has to be a line for what's in bounds. You're talking about a "defenseless receiver." There is no reason why he should torpedo the guy. I'm surprised posey didn't have a concussion. Its not much different from football. If you're hitting a defenseless receiver, its not hard to tell what a kill shot is. There's a difference between hitting a receiver and launching head first into your target.

[milkman]

Leading with the shoulder sure as hell is legal in football, and if a baseball player is leading with the head thats basically a precurser to a head-first slide, so I dont see the problem.

There's no way in hell one can watch that video and confuse that as leading with his head.

[BigMeatballDave]

Its already against the rules. It just needs to be enforced correctly. Blocking bags shouldn't be allowed, and neither should plowing into the fielder (catcher, ss, etc.). Just enforce the rules. Either you beat the throw, or the throw beats you.

You can't mow over the first baseman, and he can't get in your way while he waits for the throw. If the batter gets in the catcher's way, its interference, but they let runners break up the double play by going after the shortstop. There's no reason for it.I can see your vagina from here.

If an infielder is in the base path, he is going to get creamed. That is the runners area, not the fielders.

[chiefzilla1501]

I can see your vagina from here.

If an infielder is in the base path, he is going to get creamed. That is the runners area, not the fielders.

1) You will never see a runner launch at a fielder in his way. They will collide upright. Nothing wrong with that
2) The base path isn't necessarily the fielder's area. If the runner interferes with the fielder in the process of fielding the ball, the runner is out
3) There are protections in place at first too. You are not allowed the inside line of the base path.
4) There are protections for double plays. You have to prove some reasonable attempt to slide into the bag. You can't run out of the base path, miss the base, or make no attempt to slide (e.g. barrelling head or shoulder first into the fielder). Anything that is viewed as a blatant attempt to take out the fielder with no attempt to be safe on a slide is going to be ruled interference.

[chiefzilla1501]

There's no way in hell one can watch that video and confuse that as leading with his head.

He launches into Posey with his arms tucked in. There is no way this can be interpreted as an attempt at a slide. And it's pretty easy to instruct your players to collide upright instead of launching at them. It's illegal in the NFL, where there is a hell of a lot more padding. Not sure why it would be legal in the MLB. If he was attempting a slide, there was a clear outside path to a safe slide or dive.

[milkman]

He launches into Posey with his arms tucked in. There is no way this can be interpreted as an attempt at a slide. And it's pretty easy to instruct your players to collide upright instead of launching at them. It's illegal in the NFL, where there is a hell of a lot more padding. Not sure why it would be legal in the MLB. If he was attempting a slide, there was a clear outside path to a safe slide or dive.

I have no problem with the play.

However, as I said, there's no way that that can be confused as a head first slide.

His arms are not only tucked, but he turns his body to the left, away from the plate.

[BigMeatballDave]

He launches into Posey with his arms tucked in. There is no way this can be interpreted as an attempt at a slide. And it's pretty easy to instruct your players to collide upright instead of launching at them. It's illegal in the NFL, where there is a hell of a lot more padding. Not sure why it would be legal in the MLB. If he was attempting a slide, there was a clear outside path to a safe slide or dive.I can see your vagina, too.

Collisions like this at home plate have happened several times. Suck it up.

[chiefzilla1501]

I can see your vagina, too.

Collisions like this at home plate have happened several times. Suck it up.

Like I've said, I have no problem with home plate collisions. I love them, much as I love watching a receiver get decked.

But there's a difference between running full-speed at a catcher upright and launching after the catcher with your shoulder. If, god forbid, a catcher gets nailed on the head with the guy's leading head or leading shoulder, we're talking about massive head injury.

It's pretty simple: if you're going to take out a catcher, don't launch at him leading with your head or shoulder. Hit him upright.

[BigMeatballDave]

Like I've said, I have no problem with home plate collisions. I love them, much as I love watching a receiver get decked.

But there's a difference between running full-speed at a catcher upright and launching after the catcher with your shoulder. If, god forbid, a catcher gets nailed on the head with the guy's leading head or leading shoulder, we're talking about massive head injury.

It's pretty simple: if you're going to take out a catcher, don't launch at him leading with your head or shoulder. Hit him upright.The point of colliding with the catcher is to dislodge the ball. If the catcher is in a crouched position, as Posey was, how can the runner hit him upright?

[BigMeatballDave]

Also, this injury has absolutely nothing to do with the runner leading with his shoulder/head.

[dtebbe]

It was a dirty, chickenshit hit. Posey is at least 2' in front of the plate and the runner has the entire plate. The baseball play would be to slide behind the plate and touch up with your hand. This picture shows Posey in front of the plate and the runner launching out of the baseline to hit him head/shoulder first.

http://stopwatches.com/pix/chickensalad.jpg

If you want to call it a "clean baseball play" fine, so would the pitches flying off the runners head the next time he was up to bat.

DT

[Arsonist]

It was within the rules. Cry me a river about a person who gets millions to play baseball. It sucks he got hurt but shit happens

[chiefzilla1501]

It was a dirty, chickenshit hit. Posey is at least 2' in front of the plate and the runner has the entire plate. The baseball play would be to slide behind the plate and touch up with your hand. This picture shows Posey in front of the plate and the runner launching out of the baseline to hit him head/shoulder first.

http://stopwatches.com/pix/chickensalad.jpg

If you want to call it a "clean baseball play" fine, so would the pitches flying off the runners head the next time he was up to bat.

DT

That picture tells you everything you need to know. He's not going for the ball, he's going for the kill. Pretty much the same kind of hit that's highly illegal in the nfl against a defenseless receiver. And very high potential to give posey a massive head injury. And a clear path to the plate-- it was not a plate block.

Its a clean, legal hit, but only because the rules are outdated.

[kcxiv]

He needs to call my boy Mike Scioscia up on how to play defense as a catcher.
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fLTmd4Ni974" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

got steamrolled lol now thats going after the catcher. lol

[EyePod]

How many other catchers have gotten hurt like this? Change the game because of 1 play. I decree that.

[chiefzilla1501]

How many other catchers have gotten hurt like this? Change the game because of 1 play. I decree that.

The yankees threw a shit-fit in spring training when their promising catching prospect, elliott johnson, suffered a really serious injury from a collision.

Carlos santana, one of clevelands most promising young prospects, had a sprained knee lasdt year from a collision. If you saw it, you'd say he got really lucky.

Buster posey... We all know.

Brian mccann sprained an ankle from a collision.

That's a lot of injuries for a play that only really happens a few times a season. And all the above guys are young prospects. Add on that fisk had a major injury from a collision before his heroic playoff home run. And the infamous play where pete rose barrelledover a catcher? He virtually ended the career of a terrific catching prospect.

The play doesn't happen that much and yet catchers are getting injured a lot from it. The idea that 'its always been rthat way, so don't change it" reeks of idiocy.

[pr_capone]

Pretty much the same kind of hit that's highly illegal in the nfl against a defenseless receiver.

Herman Edwards just said the EXACT same thing on ESPN. That tells me everything I need to know about your position on this matter.

[Rams Fan]

Facts: The runner ran in a straight line. He didn't go out of his way (ie run off the base path) to make contact with the catcher, he was on the chalk at all times. It is true that he lowered his shoulder and blew him up (made more contact) rather than slide, but he believed the catcher caught it and he had no choice.

Incorrect.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lltjxtsAuN1qjxbiwo1_500.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lltjz3meqw1qjxbiwo1_500.jpg

[Sure-Oz]

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2011/06/02/giants-gm-brian-sabean-rips-scott-cousins-says-club-would-be-happy-if-he-never-plays-in-big-leagues-again/

Sabean is such a fucking crybaby, get over it

[Lex Luthor]

How many other catchers have gotten hurt like this? Change the game because of 1 play. I decree that.
Try Googling "Ray Fosse" some time. His career was ended on a play like that.

[Lex Luthor]

Every now and then a significant change is made to the game: the DH, Inter-league play, how many teams make the playoffs, and so on. The rules are changed to make the game better. Eliminating these types of needless injuries would make the game better.

It would be simple to change it:

1. If you don't slide, you're out.
2. See #1.

If the catcher blocks the plate and he has the ball in his mitt, you SHOULD be out. Crashing into him and knocking the ball out of his glove isn't allowed at first, second, or third base. It's idiotic to allow it at home plate. If you're going to allow it at home plate, you might as well allow a baserunner to crash into an infielder to prevent him from catching a pop fly.

If the catcher blocks the plate and he doesn't have the ball in his mitt, you'll be safe. If you can't reach the plate, charge the catcher with obstruction just like you would any other fielder.

[Bowser]

Try Googling "Ray Fosse" some time. His career was ended on a play like that.

YOU should google "Ray Fosse" sometime. He went on to win a world series after having his career ended by Pete Rose in that all-star game.

From wiki -

Fosse's career was one marked by numerous injuries.[3] He made his Major League debut late in the 1967 season, but returned to the minor leagues in 1968.[1] Fosse joined the Cleveland Indians in 1970, platooning alongside catcher Duke Sims.[3] In the first half of 1970, Ray posted a .313 batting average with 16 home runs and 45 runs batted in.[3] He hit in 23 consecutive games beginning June 9, the longest American League hitting streak since 1961.[3] The manager for the American League in the 1970 All-Star Game, Earl Weaver, rewarded Fosse with a reserve role on the team.[3]

Arguably, Ray Fosse is most famous for being bowled over by the Cincinnati Reds' Pete Rose at home plate in the last play of the 1970 All-Star Game.[4][5] Rose scored the winning run, while the collision separated Fosse's right shoulder. The injury is often incorrectly cited as what caused the downfall of Fosse's career. In reality, Fosse played 42 games in the second half of 1970, hitting .297 and winning the American League Gold Glove Award.[1] Rose asserted he was simply trying to win the game; however, he was widely criticized by some for over-aggressiveness in what essentially was an exhibition game. In a twist of fate, when Rose was sentenced to five months in prison for tax evasion, he was sent to the US penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, Fosse's hometown.[5]

In 1971, Fosse had a .276 batting average along with 12 home runs and 62 runs batted in, however, he suffered more injuries, getting kicked in his right hand during a brawl against the Detroit Tigers on June 20th, causing a gash that required five stitches and sidelined him for more than a week.[1][3] When he returned, Fosse tore a ligament in his left hand during an at bat against Denny McLain, forcing him to miss the 1971 All-Star Game.[3] He did manage to win his second consecutive Gold Glove Award in 1971.[6] When Cleveland pitcher Gaylord Perry won the American League Cy Young Award in 1972, he gave Fosse credit for his success saying,"I've got to split it up and give part--a big part-to my catcher, Ray Fosse. He kept pushing me in games when I didn't have good stuff. He'd come out and show me that big fist of his when I wasn't bearing down the way he thought I should."[3]

In 1973, Fosse was traded along with Jack Heidemann to the Oakland Athletics for Dave Duncan and George Hendrick.[7] He played in 143 games that year, the most of his career, on a team that had three twenty game winning pitchers (Ken Holtzman, Vida Blue and Jim "Catfish" Hunter).[8] The Athletics won the American League Western Division pennant by six games over the Kansas City Royals, then defeated the Baltimore Orioles in the 1973 American League Championship Series.[9][10] Fosse made his mark in the series, throwing out five would-be base stealers.[3] The Athletics went on to win the 1973 World Series against the New York Mets.[11]

The Athletics repeated as world champions in 1974, defeating the Los Angeles Dodgers in the World Series, but injuries would once again plague Fosse.[3][12] On June 5 he suffered a crushed disk in his neck attempting to break up a clubhouse fight between teammates Reggie Jackson and Billy North.[3] He was on the disabled list for three months. The Athletics won a fifth consecutive division title in 1975, but by then, Gene Tenace had replaced Fosse as the Athletics' starting catcher.[3] Fosse did participate in a combined no-hitter in the final game of the season, catching for Paul Lindblad and Rollie Fingers in the final 3 innings.

The Athletics traded Fosse back to the Cleveland Indians in 1976.[7] He once again became a starting catcher with the Indians, however, he went back on the disabled list after a collision at home plate with Jim Rice.[3] When he returned to duty, he was platooned alongside catcher Alan Ashby.[3] Fosse ended the year with a .301 batting average.[1] On May 30, 1977, Fosse caught Dennis Eckersley's no-hitter versus the California Angels.[13][14] Eckersley acknowledged Fosse's contribution to the no hitter, saying afterwards,"Give Fosse a lot of credit too. He called a helluva game. I think I only shook him off three times."[3] When Jeff Torborg replaced Frank Robinson as manager of the Indians in June 1977, he placed Fosse in a platoon role alongside catcher Fred Kendall, and in September of that year, Fosse was traded to the Seattle Mariners.[3][7]

Fosse finished out the year with the expansion Mariners and then signed a contract to play for the Milwaukee Brewers.[7] In spring training, Fosse tripped in a hole while running down the first base line, and suffered injuries to his right leg.[3] The most serious injury required the reconstruction of the ligament on the outside of the knee, causing him to miss the entire season.[3] He came back in 1979, but only played in 19 games, and in 1980, Fosse was released at the end of spring training.[3]

[Bowser]

It was an unfortunate play for Buster, to be sure. But shit happens in sports.

[DJ's left nut]

That picture tells you everything you need to know. He's not going for the ball, he's going for the kill. Pretty much the same kind of hit that's highly illegal in the nfl against a defenseless receiver. And very high potential to give posey a massive head injury. And a clear path to the plate-- it was not a plate block.

Its a clean, legal hit, but only because the rules are outdated.

In a game in which a 1/2 a second means all the difference in the world, no still photo will EVER tell you "everything you need to know".

In real time, Posey was getting ready to come across the plate and block. He didn't field the ball cleanly so you can see him hesitate a little before coming across. The runner had no more than 1/10th of a second to decide if Posey was looking to block, but the way Posey had set up certainly made it appear like he was.

From there, it's the old football axiom - "be the hammer or be the guy that gets hurt". If Cousins believed Posey was going to block (a very reasonable assumption given the speed and setup of the play), he puts himself at risk by half-assing into the plate, especially with Posey being the guy wearing all the armor and padding.

It was a baseball play that happened in real time. Cousins didn't get the benefit of seeing Posey hitch when he came across after he mis-fielded the ball. All he saw was a ball that was clearly beating him to the plate and a catcher that had his body situated with his leg in front of the plate and his momentum moving towards a blocking stance.

Shit happens and I'm tired of a bunch of guys that are clearly biased acting like they're some sort of moral arbiters. Sabean's boy got hurt and the Posey's agent is down a meal ticket - I'm not interested in either of them acting like some bastions of player safety. They'd both be dead ass silent had the roles been reversed. It's just bitching and moaning from vested parties.

[OnTheWarpath15]

YOU should google "Ray Fosse" sometime. He went on to win a world series after having his career ended by Pete Rose in that all-star game.

From wiki -

LMAO

And boom goes the dynamite.

[OnTheWarpath15]

In a game in which a 1/2 a second means all the difference in the world, no still photo will EVER tell you "everything you need to know".

In real time, Posey was getting ready to come across the plate and block. He didn't field the ball cleanly so you can see him hesitate a little before coming across. The runner had no more than 1/10th of a second to decide if Posey was looking to block, but the way Posey had set up certainly made it appear like he was.

From there, it's the old football axiom - "be the hammer or be the guy that gets hurt". If Cousins believed Posey was going to block (a very reasonable assumption given the speed and setup of the play), he puts himself at risk by half-assing into the plate, especially with Posey being the guy wearing all the armor and padding.

It was a baseball play that happened in real time. Cousins didn't get the benefit of seeing Posey hitch when he came across after he mis-fielded the ball. All he saw was a ball that was clearly beating him to the plate and a catcher that had his body situated with his leg in front of the plate and his momentum moving towards a blocking stance.

Shit happens and I'm tired of a bunch of guys that are clearly biased acting like they're some sort of moral arbiters. Sabean's boy got hurt and the Posey's agent is down a meal ticket - I'm not interested in either of them acting like some bastions of player safety. They'd both be dead ass silent had the roles been reversed. It's just bitching and moaning from vested parties.

This.

[Bowser]

Shit happens and I'm tired of a bunch of guys that are clearly biased acting like they're some sort of moral arbiters. Sabean's boy got hurt and the Posey's agent is down a meal ticket - I'm not interested in either of them acting like some bastions of player safety. They'd both be dead ass silent had the roles been reversed. It's just bitching and moaning from vested parties.

End of story.

[BIG_DADDY]

This.

Whining about the whining? Whatever. He wasn't even blocking the plate but he decided he was going to try and take him out anyway. On the other hand IMO you simply can't allow umpires who already suck green donkey dicks to try and make moral calls at home plate when they already have a hard time calling balls and strikes. I do think you will see some changes at 2nd base though. Being a Giants fan this injury really stinks. Posey is an awesome young talent and losing him certainly hurts our chances. Giants are still in first place for now though.

It will be interesting see if there is any backlash from the Giants towards Cousins in the future. I really don't anticipate one but you never know.

[DJ's left nut]

Whining about the whining? Whatever. He wasn't even blocking the plate but he decided he was going to try and take him out anyway. On the other hand IMO you simply can't allow umpires who already suck green donkey dicks to try and make moral calls at home plate when they already have a hard time calling balls and strikes. I do think you will see some changes at 2nd base though. Being a Giants fan this injury really stinks. Posey is an awesome young talent and losing him certainly hurts our chances. Giants are still in first place for now though.

It will be interesting see if there is any backlash from the Giants towards Cousins in the future. I really don't anticipate one but you never know.

He was getting ready to block the plate. The 'he wasn't blocking the plate' stuff is armchair analysis from guys that weren't running full tilt down a baseline w/ fractions of a second to decide what to do.

Look at the 'baseline' photos in this thread. In the second of them, right as Cousins is having to make a decision, Posey is transferring his momentum to the front of the plate and dropping his knee. He gave absolutely every impression of a catcher that was going to block the plate (if he's going to do a sweep tag, he takes his left foot forward and starts turning his upper body before the throw gets there like MIs do on a relay throw). When he mishandled the throw, it screwed his timing up then he got unlucky when his foot hung up under him.

Cousins did exactly what any baseball player that I'd care to have on my team would've done in that spot. Game on the line in the late innings, the catcher giving every impression that he intends to block the plate: You score that run however necessary.

It's a damn shame for Posey, but it's nothing Cousins did wrong.

And yes, Sabean and Barry can just shut the fuck up about it already.

[BIG_DADDY]

He was getting ready to block the plate. The 'he wasn't blocking the plate' stuff is armchair analysis from guys that weren't running full tilt down a baseline w/ fractions of a second to decide what to do.

Look at the 'baseline' photos in this thread. In the second of them, right as Cousins is having to make a decision, Posey is transferring his momentum to the front of the plate and dropping his knee. He gave absolutely every impression of a catcher that was going to block the plate (if he's going to do a sweep tag, he takes his left foot forward and starts turning his upper body before the throw gets there like MIs do on a relay throw). When he mishandled the throw, it screwed his timing up then he got unlucky when his foot hung up under him.

Cousins did exactly what any baseball player that I'd care to have on my team would've done in that spot. Game on the line in the late innings, the catcher giving every impression that he intends to block the plate: You score that run however necessary.

It's a damn shame for Posey, but it's nothing Cousins did wrong.

And yes, Sabean and Barry can just shut the **** up about it already.

The fact that it takes you paragraphs to try and make your point is exactly mine. Umpires cannot regulate this and shouldn't. I do think you will see changes at 2nd base where runners are clearly going after the player and not the bag though. It's much harder in fractions of a second to make that moral call at home plate. MOF I am pretty confident that the umpires would make the wrong call the vast majority of the time.

As far a Sabean situation is concerned Pose is a rising superstar and was becoming the team leader, this was a very violent way to go out. The media feeding fenzy is always putting a microphone in his face and asking him about it. It was a painful loss on hit that could certainly be considered in the gray area. At this point I think I have heard enough about it myself especially living in the bay area. It's time for the Giants to move on. Posey will be back next year with a vengence. I don't think you would hear Sabean going on about it though if the media wasn't constantly sticking a microphone in his face asking him about it. What's he supposed to say, it was a great hit?

[Lex Luthor]

YOU should google "Ray Fosse" sometime. He went on to win a world series after having his career ended by Pete Rose in that all-star game.

From wiki -
I don't have to Google "Ray Fosse". I watched him play before and after the collision.

I shouldn't have said his career ended. I should have said that he was never even remotely close to being the same player after the collision as he was before. And he wasn't.

[Lex Luthor]

Cousins did exactly what any baseball player that I'd care to have on my team would've done in that spot. Game on the line in the late innings, the catcher giving every impression that he intends to block the plate: You score that run however necessary.

It's a damn shame for Posey, but it's nothing Cousins did wrong.


This I agree with. Cousins was trying to win the game, and he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do given the way the game is played today. If he had shied away from contact and wound up getting tagged out, he'd be getting blasted by Giants fans.

I just think they should change the rule.

[eazyb81]

Jesus I hope Sabean gets fined and/or suspended for his latest comments. He has gone WAY over the line and looks like a huge whiny bitch.

Hey genius, this is why you don't build your team to rely on offense from your catcher. It is a dangerous position and people get hurt.

It really pisses me off Cousins is getting lambasted for what really was a clean play.

[Sure-Oz]

This wouldn't be this big of an issue if he wasn't the giants best player. If he was some avg catcher this wouldn't catch heat. Where's Posey, why not say what he feels? Unless he's sipping out of a straw.

Cousins lives in SF, the death threats are ridiculous....dude played baseball hard and is a bench player trying to stay on.

[BIG_DADDY]

Jesus I hope Sabean gets fined and/or suspended for his latest comments. He has gone WAY over the line and looks like a huge whiny bitch.

Hey genius, this is why you don't build your team to rely on offense from your catcher. It is a dangerous position and people get hurt.

It really pisses me off Cousins is getting lambasted for what really was a clean play.

Suspended? LMAO

[DJ's left nut]

This I agree with. Cousins was trying to win the game, and he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do given the way the game is played today. If he had shied away from contact and wound up getting tagged out, he'd be getting blasted by Giants fans.

I just think they should change the rule.

Here's my concern with changing the rule: You're just shifting the risk of injury to the player least prepared to deal with it.

I lost 1/2 a season to sliding feet first into home when I was a kid. I hung my foot up in the catcher's gear. He'd taken a strong position at home and had all that padding and that low center of gravity on his side. Most of them will even dig a foot into the edge of the plate to help hold their ground. In my league, blasting the catcher was prohibited so I had to slide.

I sprained the hell out of my ankle and hyper extended my knee. In sliding, I lost all my momentum and the catcher was able to use his padding and his ability to situate himself to his advantage.

It's a competitive sport - people are going to get hurt. If you change the rules to prevent a collision like that, all you're doing is shifting the risk of injury in close plays at the plate to the baserunner. The baserunner doesn't have the padding, he doesn't have the protection. And you'll also note that the catcher tends to be one of the stockier guys on the team as well, so more often than not the baserunner doesn't have the mass on his side either.

Someone has to bear that risk. As far as I'm concerned, it should be the guy that can actively elect to get the fuck out of the way of a running baserunner and the guy that is covered from head to foot in pads and armor.

[JohnnyV13]

T I do think you will see changes at 2nd base where runners are clearly going after the player and not the bag though.

They already protect the 2nd basemen, its colloquially called "The McRae rule", due to Hal McRae going way out of the basepaths to run down Yankee MI's in the 1977 playoffs.

[whoman69]

Agent better think about what he's wishing for. The only way to curtail the collisions at the plate is to outlaw blocking the plate. As DJs Left Nut points out, if you outlaw taking out the catcher on these plays then more will be injured because the catchers have total control. Mike Scioscia was an expert at blocking the plate and often did it illegally without the ball but was never called on it.

[BIG_DADDY]

Agent better think about what he's wishing for. The only way to curtail the collisions at the plate is to outlaw blocking the plate. As DJs Left Nut points out, if you outlaw taking out the catcher on these plays then more will be injured because the catchers have total control. Mike Scioscia was an expert at blocking the plate and often did it illegally without the ball but was never called on it.

Outlaw? I think the only thing that is outlawed in baseball is steroids at this point. Nobody is talking about restricting the catcher from blocking the plate either. I am not sure where you got that. Nobody is talking about completely restricting taking a catcher out either. Not sure where you are getting that from either. The only thing being talked about is giving the umpire the right to make a moral call at the plate. In other words if a catcher is not restricting a runners ability to get to the plate you can't just take him out anyway or you will be considered out. That's all I've heard. I would be interested in knowing where you are getting all your information from.

[Just Passin' By]

Outlaw? I think the only thing that is outlawed in baseball is steroids at this point. Nobody is talking about restricting the catcher from blocking the plate either. I am not sure where you got that. Nobody is talking about completely restricting taking a catcher out either. Not sure where you are getting that from either. The only thing being talked about is giving the umpire the right to make a moral call at the plate. In other words if a catcher is not restricting a runners ability to get to the plate you can't just take him out anyway or you will be considered out. That's all I've heard. I would be interested in knowing where you are getting all your information from.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=7676298&postcount=124

[kcxiv]

leave it as is and move the fuck on, shit like this rarely happens. quit bitching and enjoy the game if you like the sport of baseball.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

leave it as is and move the fuck on, shit like this rarely happens. quit bitching and enjoy the game if you like the sport of baseball.

:clap:

[BIG_DADDY]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=7676298&postcount=124

I wouldn't call Brainiac's opinion good sourcing. LMAO

[BIG_DADDY]

leave it as is and move the **** on, shit like this rarely happens. quit bitching and enjoy the game if you like the sport of baseball.

People will give you there opinion if you shove a microphone in their face and ask. I am in Giants country and people have already dropped it. Media needs something to talk about.

[eazyb81]

leave it as is and move the **** on, shit like this rarely happens. quit bitching and enjoy the game if you like the sport of baseball.

You have to remember, the only people bitching are fags from the Bay Area. NO ONE else thinks this is even remotely an issue, because everyone else is smart enough to see this happens so rarely.

[whoman69]

Outlaw? I think the only thing that is outlawed in baseball is steroids at this point. Nobody is talking about restricting the catcher from blocking the plate either. I am not sure where you got that. Nobody is talking about completely restricting taking a catcher out either. Not sure where you are getting that from either. The only thing being talked about is giving the umpire the right to make a moral call at the plate. In other words if a catcher is not restricting a runners ability to get to the plate you can't just take him out anyway or you will be considered out. That's all I've heard. I would be interested in knowing where you are getting all your information from.

I'm not getting my information from anywhere. I was responding to the previous post about some high school rules where they have banned running into the catcher. Those rules resulted in baserunners being injured by catchers who have total contol to block the plate with no fear to being run over.

The situation which you are discussing is pretty rare and would have almost no impact on the game. Would an umpire call someone out if the catcher was blocking the plate but the throw was a bit off and opened a portion up? Runners would have very little time to make a decision.

On this play Posey was not blocking the plate because the ball just got in ahead of the runner and he dropped the ball. If you watch the play again he was moving to block the plate when he was taken out. While his body was not directly in front of the plate his leg was, and that was what got caught. Posey got caught in between because he lost the ball.

The runner did nothing wrong on this play even under new rules you say are being considered. If catchers are allowed to block the plate, runners have a right to bowl them over.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not getting my information from anywhere. I was responding to the previous post about some high school rules where they have banned running into the catcher. Those rules resulted in baserunners being injured by catchers who have total contol to block the plate with no fear to being run over.

The situation which you are discussing is pretty rare and would have almost no impact on the game. Would an umpire call someone out if the catcher was blocking the plate but the throw was a bit off and opened a portion up? Runners would have very little time to make a decision.

On this play Posey was not blocking the plate because the ball just got in ahead of the runner and he dropped the ball. If you watch the play again he was moving to block the plate when he was taken out. While his body was not directly in front of the plate his leg was, and that was what got caught. Posey got caught in between because he lost the ball.

The runner did nothing wrong on this play even under new rules you say are being considered. If catchers are allowed to block the plate, runners have a right to bowl them over.

In the past 2 weeks, 2 catchers have been injured (Posey and Doumit). In the last 2 years, two young, promising catchers have been injured (Posey and Carlos Santana). 4 catchers have been injured in the past two years (Posey, Doumit, Santana, Francisco Cervelli) -- very frequent, given that a catcher only gets plowed a few times a year.

Any baseball fan should hate the alternative. Oakland is telling their catcher to stay away from the plate, making throwouts at home extraordinarily difficult. The Nationals moved Bryce Harper to Left Field and I bet the Indians and Giants will consider moving Posey. Parents are telling their kids to stop playing catcher. I hope you all enjoy watching .200 avg, 2 HR hitters, baseball fans. In the NL, you'll pretty much have .200 hitters hitting back-to-back. Awesome for the game, really.

And the solution isn't that hard. Nobody is saying get rid of collisions. I'm saying it's ridiculous that the MLB use the same rules as the NFL in terms of hitting a defenseless receiver--don't let runners "launch" into the catcher. And I think there's also something to be said for, like running to first base, forcing players to take the outside line on 3rd base.

[Bowser]

In the past 2 weeks, 2 catchers have been injured (Posey and Doumit). In the last 2 years, two young, promising catchers have been injured (Posey and Carlos Santana). 4 catchers have been injured in the past two years (Posey, Doumit, Santana, Francisco Cervelli) -- very frequent, given that a catcher only gets plowed a few times a year.

Any baseball fan should hate the alternative. Oakland is telling their catcher to stay away from the plate, making throwouts at home extraordinarily difficult. The Nationals moved Bryce Harper to Left Field and I bet the Indians and Giants will consider moving Posey. Parents are telling their kids to stop playing catcher. I hope you all enjoy watching .200 avg, 2 HR hitters, baseball fans. In the NL, you'll pretty much have .200 hitters hitting back-to-back. Awesome for the game, really.

And the solution isn't that hard. Nobody is saying get rid of collisions. I'm saying it's ridiculous that the MLB use the same rules as the NFL in terms of hitting a defenseless receiver--don't let runners "launch" into the catcher. And I think there's also something to be said for, like running to first base, forcing players to take the outside line on 3rd base.

30 teams x 162 games for each = 4860 total games, 9720 games in two years, and 4 guys got injured. Sorry, but that's not enough to institute a rules change, imo. Injuries happen, it's a part of the game, and anybody that thinks that there should be some type of rules change has likely had a layer from their team get hurt in this manner. These guys knew the risks.

I will agree that the whole launching into a catcher thing is probably unnecessary. Carlos Beltran used to have that slide where he would come around the catcher and tag the plate with his left hand. You would think that we'd be seeing more of that.

[DeezNutz]

In the past 2 weeks, 2 catchers have been injured (Posey and Doumit). In the last 2 years, two young, promising catchers have been injured (Posey and Carlos Santana). 4 catchers have been injured in the past two years (Posey, Doumit, Santana, Francisco Cervelli) -- very frequent, given that a catcher only gets plowed a few times a year.

Any baseball fan should hate the alternative. Oakland is telling their catcher to stay away from the plate, making throwouts at home extraordinarily difficult. The Nationals moved Bryce Harper to Left Field and I bet the Indians and Giants will consider moving Posey. Parents are telling their kids to stop playing catcher. I hope you all enjoy watching .200 avg, 2 HR hitters, baseball fans. In the NL, you'll pretty much have .200 hitters hitting back-to-back. Awesome for the game, really.

And the solution isn't that hard. Nobody is saying get rid of collisions. I'm saying it's ridiculous that the MLB use the same rules as the NFL in terms of hitting a defenseless receiver--don't let runners "launch" into the catcher. And I think there's also something to be said for, like running to first base, forcing players to take the outside line on 3rd base.

Link? With convincing statistical evidence to prove this claim?

[chiefzilla1501]

30 teams x 162 games for each = 4860 total games, 9720 games in two years, and 4 guys got injured. Sorry, but that's not enough to institute a rules change, imo. Injuries happen, it's a part of the game, and anybody that thinks that there should be some type of rules change has likely had a layer from their team get hurt in this manner. These guys knew the risks.

I will agree that the whole launching into a catcher thing is probably unnecessary. Carlos Beltran used to have that slide where he would come around the catcher and tag the plate with his left hand. You would think that we'd be seeing more of that.

You're acting like a collision happens every game. Not even close.

[Bowser]

You're acting like a collision happens every game. Not even close.

Exactly

[chiefzilla1501]

Link? With convincing statistical evidence to prove this claim?

No, I don't. And I don't see why I'd have to. I think it's pretty much common sense. And it's not just parents. It's minor league teams too. It's absolutely stupid that teams have to start forcing catchers to play different positions because they happen to be great hitters. Bryce Harper could have been the Michael Jordan of baseball. Now he's probably going to be an amazing hitter and an average fielder.

[DeezNutz]

No, I don't. And I don't see why I'd have to. I think it's pretty much common sense. And it's not just parents. It's minor league teams too. It's absolutely stupid that teams have to start forcing catchers to play different positions because they happen to be great hitters. Bryce Harper could have been the Michael Jordan of baseball. Now he's probably going to be an amazing hitter and an average fielder.

Because parents are no more worried about their kids playing catcher today than they were 10 years ago. Until proven otherwise, this seems to be common sense from my perspective.

And there has always been talk about moving elite hitting catchers. Not because of collisions at the plate but rather because of the wear and tear on the knees and legs. Not to mention that it is the most physically fatiguing position on the field, and thus it begins negatively to affect one's hitting late in the year.

None of the above has anything to do with what happened to Posey.

[Bowser]

No, I don't. And I don't see why I'd have to. I think it's pretty much common sense. And it's not just parents. It's minor league teams too. It's absolutely stupid that teams have to start forcing catchers to play different positions because they happen to be great hitters. Bryce Harper could have been the Michael Jordan of baseball. Now he's probably going to be an amazing hitter and an average fielder.

If the Nationals want to take an exceptional catcher and turn him into an average to good outfielder on the fear of what MIGHT happen down the road, then that's on the Nationals, and I don't feel sorry for them. What happens when he plants his forehead into the wall chasing down a deep drive, or blows a knee trying to dive and make a catch? Any catcher in the majors or minors certainly know the risks of the position and accept it, and if a team wants to further weaken theirselves by playing guys out of position because they're worried about possible future injuries, then they're dumb.

[DeezNutz]

In the interest of safety, we should eliminate all catchers and outfield walls.

[tk13]

Catcher has always been a relatively poor offensive position. There aren't that many great offensive catchers, not sure there really ever has been. People have been moved away from the catcher position for years because even without collisions, the strain of playing the position is significant. The Royals did it for Mike Sweeney... and Mitch Maier, and I'm sure others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

[Bowser]

In the interest of safety, we should eliminate all catchers and outfield walls.

Billy Butler may actually get a steal that way. Probably not.

[DeezNutz]

Instead of catchers, all teams will play one of these, which will wear Posey's number:

http://image.become.com/imageserver/s2/639290042-150-150-5-32/wheeled-bounce-back-rebounder.jpg

[SPATCH]

Because parents are no more worried about their kids playing catcher today than they were 10 years ago. Until proven otherwise, this seems to be common sense from my perspective.

And there has always been talk about moving elite hitting catchers. Not because of collisions at the plate but rather because of the wear and tear on the knees and legs. Not to mention that it is the most physically fatiguing position on the field, and thus it begins negatively to affect one's hitting late in the year.

None of the above has anything to do with what happened to Posey.

Sweet Jesus thank you.

[chiefzilla1501]

Catcher has always been a relatively poor offensive position. There aren't that many great offensive catchers, not sure there really ever has been. People have been moved away from the catcher position for years because even without collisions, the strain of playing the position is significant. The Royals did it for Mike Sweeney... and Mitch Maier, and I'm sure others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

No, I fully understand that. But if it's an already straining position, why make it even more dangerous by letting collisions go unpoliced? These injuries happen all the time. They just don't happen to superstars every day.

Hell, football is a dangerous sport. But the NFL is right to police unnecessary illegal hits to protect their players. And they have a hell of a lot more padding and protection than catchers do.

[chiefzilla1501]

Because parents are no more worried about their kids playing catcher today than they were 10 years ago. Until proven otherwise, this seems to be common sense from my perspective.

And there has always been talk about moving elite hitting catchers. Not because of collisions at the plate but rather because of the wear and tear on the knees and legs. Not to mention that it is the most physically fatiguing position on the field, and thus it begins negatively to affect one's hitting late in the year.

None of the above has anything to do with what happened to Posey.

This shit happens every single day. It's not every day it happens to a superstar, and this is the first I've seen in a while where there's actually a mixed reaction. Do you ever remember anybody talking about this in a long time the way they're talking about it today? There's no doubt in my mind that parents and coaches are taking note.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

In the past 2 weeks, 2 catchers have been injured (Posey and Doumit). In the last 2 years, two young, promising catchers have been injured (Posey and Carlos Santana). 4 catchers have been injured in the past two years (Posey, Doumit, Santana, Francisco Cervelli) -- very frequent, given that a catcher only gets plowed a few times a year.

Any baseball fan should hate the alternative. Oakland is telling their catcher to stay away from the plate, making throwouts at home extraordinarily difficult. The Nationals moved Bryce Harper to Left Field and I bet the Indians and Giants will consider moving Posey. Parents are telling their kids to stop playing catcher. I hope you all enjoy watching .200 avg, 2 HR hitters, baseball fans. In the NL, you'll pretty much have .200 hitters hitting back-to-back. Awesome for the game, really.

And the solution isn't that hard. Nobody is saying get rid of collisions. I'm saying it's ridiculous that the MLB use the same rules as the NFL in terms of hitting a defenseless receiver--don't let runners "launch" into the catcher. And I think there's also something to be said for, like running to first base, forcing players to take the outside line on 3rd base.

JFC. Overreact much??? Folks, get your kid in a plastic bubble before it is too late!!!!!!!!

[chiefzilla1501]

JFC. Overreact much??? Folks, get your kid in a plastic bubble before it is too late!!!!!!!!

I don't I'm saying anything radical.

Every NFL fan and player knows the difference between an illegal hit on a defenseless receiver, and a legal one. I'm suggesting that the MLB enforce hits the same way. If Cousins was a safety in football hitting a defenseless receiver, that would have been a fineable hit. That's football--a contact sport.

And again, the other problem I have is hitting a catcher on the pitcher's side of the line. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask runners to use the outside line.

[whoman69]

I don't I'm saying anything radical.

Every NFL fan and player knows the difference between an illegal hit on a defenseless receiver, and a legal one. I'm suggesting that the MLB enforce hits the same way. If Cousins was a safety in football hitting a defenseless receiver, that would have been a fineable hit. That's football--a contact sport.

And again, the other problem I have is hitting a catcher on the pitcher's side of the line. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask runners to use the outside line.

In your previous response you didn't mention what injured the other catchers. Catchers get hurt all the time, most not from collisions. Josh Hamilton got hurt by a catcher earlier this year. Should that catcher have been fined? On the play in question Posey was moving to block the plate. That's why he was taken out. You will not reduce collisions until catchers cannot block the plate. Perhaps the umpires are somewhat responsible because you almost never see a catcher called for obstruction of the runner even though they block the plate without the ball all the time.

The only time you see position players blocking a bag is when the runner makes a head first slide and they have little risk of being injured themselves. Catchers have protective equipment and take more chances especially when it means a run for the other team.

The only real way to stop collisions is to outlaw blocking the plate. If you fine hits then like the NFL you will see players letting up on plays. If you outlaw the collisions you give catchers carte blanche to block the plate without impunity because they know they have no chance of injury, and will cause injuries to baserunners instead.

Your last statement would cause runners to be called out. You cannot change your path to the base or you are called out.

[chiefzilla1501]

In your previous response you didn't mention what injured the other catchers. Catchers get hurt all the time, most not from collisions. Josh Hamilton got hurt by a catcher earlier this year. Should that catcher have been fined? On the play in question Posey was moving to block the plate. That's why he was taken out. You will not reduce collisions until catchers cannot block the plate. Perhaps the umpires are somewhat responsible because you almost never see a catcher called for obstruction of the runner even though they block the plate without the ball all the time.

The only time you see position players blocking a bag is when the runner makes a head first slide and they have little risk of being injured themselves. Catchers have protective equipment and take more chances especially when it means a run for the other team.

The only real way to stop collisions is to outlaw blocking the plate. If you fine hits then like the NFL you will see players letting up on plays. If you outlaw the collisions you give catchers carte blanche to block the plate without impunity because they know they have no chance of injury, and will cause injuries to baserunners instead.

Your last statement would cause runners to be called out. You cannot change your path to the base or you are called out.

Yes, I think catchers should be fined if they block the plate with no path at all to the plate.

And you're completely wrong on Posey moving to block the plate. His entire body was in front of the plate. He has to be able to turn and make the tag. There is still a very clear path on the other side of the line to get to the plate.

But again, you're completely missing the point of my post. I have never said get rid of collisions. I said that hits to the catcher should be enforced the same way they are in the NFL to a defenseless receiver. By rule, there's nothing illegal about a player just dropkicking a catcher if he wanted to. There has to be boundaries.

[SPATCH]

Catcher is a rugged position... collisions come with the territory.

You sack up and deal with it

Next time the Giants play the Marlins, Scott Cousins is going to see some HEATERS on the inside part of the plate....

This is baseball. Quit ****ing with it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Catcher is a rugged position... collisions come with the territory.

You sack up and deal with it

Next time the Giants play the Marlins, Scott Cousins is going to see some HEATERS on the inside part of the plate....

This is baseball. Quit ****ing with it.

So a runner can just dropkick or kick the catcher in the balls? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't do that.
There are no rules right now. And that's absolutely stupid. Again, I'm not saying outlaw collisions. I'm saying lay a few very simple ground rules.

[Just Passin' By]

Jacoby Ellsbury missed most of last year after a collision with his 3rd baseman. The Red Sox may be about to have 2 pitchers getting Tommy John surgery, and the league lost its latest phenom to that same in the not-so-distant past.

It's time to outlaw pitching, and the catching of fly balls, before someone else gets hurt.

[SPATCH]

So a runner can just dropkick or kick the catcher in the balls? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't do that.
There are no rules right now. And that's absolutely stupid. Again, I'm not saying outlaw collisions. I'm saying lay a few very simple ground rules.

There is also no rule against using bear mace on a catcher at home plate. HOLY SHIT. omgsomeoneisgoingtousebearmaceonacatcheromgholyshit

You pull that sort of shit and you're a baseball pariah. When Delmon Young pulled his bullshit in the minors it was nearly the end of his career. Not every rule needs to be WRITTEN. Baseball players KNOW. Some things need only to be UNDERSTOOD.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Jacoby Ellsbury missed most of last year after a collision with his 3rd baseman. The Red Sox may be about to have 2 pitchers getting Tommy John surgery, and the league lost its latest phenom to that same in the not-so-distant past.

It's time to outlaw pitching, and the catching of fly balls, before someone else gets hurt.

LMAO

[chiefzilla1501]

Jacoby Ellsbury missed most of last year after a collision with his 3rd baseman. The Red Sox may be about to have 2 pitchers getting Tommy John surgery, and the league lost its latest phenom to that same in the not-so-distant past.

It's time to outlaw pitching, and the catching of fly balls, before someone else gets hurt.

Not too long ago, helmet-to-helmet hits were a "part of the game" in football too.

[chiefzilla1501]

There is also no rule against using bear mace on a catcher at home plate. HOLY SHIT. omgsomeoneisgoingtousebearmaceonacatcheromgholyshit

You pull that sort of shit and you're a baseball pariah. When Delmon Young pulled his bullshit in the minors it was nearly the end of his career. Not every rule needs to be WRITTEN. Baseball players KNOW. Some things need only to be UNDERSTOOD.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's an unwritten rule. And as long as it's an unwritten rule, there are going to be instances like these where opinions are split. Rather than rely on players to police each other, how about we just lay a few simple ground rules.

Again, the NFL does it. It doesn't stop players from hitting each other. It just says that one specific type of hit is dangerous and should be outlawed. I have yet to hear anybody give me any good reason why a player should be allowed to lead with his shoulder and launch into a catcher inside of the foul line.

[DeezNutz]

I remember posting about this on the old Star board when Rose destroyed Ray Fosse. It's taken baseball 41 years to recover, and now this.

[chiefzilla1501]

I remember posting about this on the old Star board when Rose destroyed Ray Fosse. It's taken baseball 41 years to recover, and now this.

I have no problem with the Rose/Fosse collision.

[Sure-Oz]

Last Posey: "We all need to move on, so it isn't necessary to have a conversation with him at this point." 35 minutes ago via web

Posey:"I appreciate that he made the effort to reach out to me on the night of the play.. I was in no physical condition to talk to anyone." 35 minutes ago via web

Posey statement: "In no way do I condone threats of any kind against Scott Cousins or his family." 36 minutes ago via web

via http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo

[SPATCH]

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's an unwritten rule. And as long as it's an unwritten rule, there are going to be instances like these where opinions are split. Rather than rely on players to police each other, how about we just lay a few simple ground rules.

Again, the NFL does it. It doesn't stop players from hitting each other. It just says that one specific type of hit is dangerous and should be outlawed. I have yet to hear anybody give me any good reason why a player should be allowed to lead with his shoulder and launch into a catcher inside of the foul line.

The NFL is ****ing up. Don't get me started on "launching". What a ****ing joke.

Golly, I just get so excited thinking about my sport being bastardized into a game where you can't hit each other too hard.

[syyrupp-mannn]

The hit was totally legal but Cousins did have the oppotunity to slide around him but he came right at his leg. I think there needs to be some rule changes permitting the runners from ramming into there legs!

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Alright, who's multing as this syrup fella?

[whoman69]

Yes, I think catchers should be fined if they block the plate with no path at all to the plate.

And you're completely wrong on Posey moving to block the plate. His entire body was in front of the plate. He has to be able to turn and make the tag. There is still a very clear path on the other side of the line to get to the plate.

But again, you're completely missing the point of my post. I have never said get rid of collisions. I said that hits to the catcher should be enforced the same way they are in the NFL to a defenseless receiver. By rule, there's nothing illegal about a player just dropkicking a catcher if he wanted to. There has to be boundaries.

I've gone back and looked at the tape multiple times. Just before the runner got there Posey struck his left leg out to block the plate. He was also in the process of moving his body to block as well but the ball popped out which is why he stopped.

You're totally wrong about a player dropkicking a catcher. He'd be called out, thrown out of the game and ready to receive a big fine and suspension from Bud Selig.

[BIG_DADDY]

Last Posey: "We all need to move on, so it isn't necessary to have a conversation with him at this point." 35 minutes ago via web

Posey:"I appreciate that he made the effort to reach out to me on the night of the play.. I was in no physical condition to talk to anyone." 35 minutes ago via web

Posey statement: "In no way do I condone threats of any kind against Scott Cousins or his family." 36 minutes ago via web

via http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo

Posey moving on:
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110604&content_id=20019034&vkey=news_sf&c_id=sf

Giants organization came out saying Sabeans remarks were out of emotion and frustration and the organization and Brian reached out to counsins:

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110603&content_id=19988894&vkey=news_sf&c_id=sf

I am a Giants fan and don't know another that thinks the rules should be changed. If Brians comments could be seen as a bloody vaginal discharge this threads response to his comments should be seen as a bloody vaginal river. Everyone has moved except some of you in this thread. Maybe you guys should keep whining about it for a another week or two.

[BIG_DADDY]

I've gone back and looked at the tape multiple times. Just before the runner got there Posey struck his left leg out to block the plate. He was also in the process of moving his body to block as well but the ball popped out which is why he stopped.

You're totally wrong about a player dropkicking a catcher. He'd be called out, thrown out of the game and ready to receive a big fine and suspension from Bud Selig.

Calling that blocking the plate is utterly ridiculous. That being said the decision to hit instead of slide to an open plate was made in a millisecond. It is what it is. The last people I want to put in charge of deciding games based upon millisecond moral decisions are MLB umpires. THey can't even keep a standard strike zone for god's sake how are they going to decide on something like that? Each one will have their own moral standard and want to put their own personal stamp on the game like anyone gives a flying fuck about those guys. Keep it like it is.

[pr_capone]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6625504

Johnny Bench puts Buster Posey at fault


Hall of Famer Johnny Bench says Buster Posey's season-ending injury was the result of a mistake on the Giants catcher's part.

Bench, who knows all too well the physical toll of playing catcher in the major leagues, says preventing collisions at the plate is a major key to the success of any catcher.

"Buster was a finalist for the Johnny Bench Award (as the top collegiate catcher in 2008) and is a great kid -- I called him after the World Series last year," Bench told the Tulsa World this week. "When I heard about the injury, I was anxious to see how this happened. Buster put himself in such a bad position."

Posey, last year's NL rookie of the year, was knocked out for the season on a play at the plate with Marlins outfielder Scott Cousins last week, a sequence that resulted in widespread, vexing rhetoric -- and apologies from both sides.

It also sparked debate on whether a change to baseball's baserunning rules could help avert injuries like Posey's.

Umpire Joe West, the president of the World Umpires Association who was feet away from the impact that sidelined Posey, assures it's only part of the game -- "just as much as apple pie."

"You ask me if I'm upset that a good, young player got hurt. Yeah. Is it unfortunate? Yeah. Is it part of the game? Yeah," West said, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

"I can't tell you I would change anything, It's one of those things that's part of baseball, just as much as apple pie. You can't change the rules because it's been that way forever."

West said a key part of the play had been missed in the aftermath.

"What they're failing to look at is that (Posey) dropped the ball before the guy got there," West said. "That's why he was in a vulnerable position. That's why he was trying to find the ball. If he had caught the ball, he could have got his hands up and he could have defended himself. He could have absorbed the blow with both arms and his glove.

"It's like a receiver going over the middle in football. If he bobbles the ball a couple of times, the linebacker is going to kill him."

Bench, a spring training instructor for the Reds, was playing in his third All-Star Game in 1970 when Cincinnati teammate Pete Rose barrelled over Ray Fosse at the plate for the game-winning run in the bottom of the 12th inning.

Fosse, a rookie catcher for the Cleveland Indians, was seriously injured on the play, his promising career permanently scarred.

Cousins' run also came in the 12th inning to send the Marlins past the Giants 7-6.

"First of all, my catchers don't sit in front of home plate. They stand away from home plate and work back to the plate," Bench told the Tulsa newspaper. "But we (catchers) are just fair game. You've got a guy running around third base at 210 to 220 pounds with 3 percent body fat and with sprinter's speed."

Cousins, a rookie, has been receiving death threats despite repeatedly apologizing for the May 25 collision that left Posey with a broken bone in his lower left leg and three torn ligaments in his ankle. He's had surgery and is done for the season.

"I teach my kids to stay away from the plate when you don't have the ball so the runner actually sees home plate and his thought is, slide," said Bench, who has undergone hip replacements on both legs in the past seven years after a 17-year career that ended in 1983. "But Buster is laying in front of home plate, and it's like having a disabled car in the middle of a four-lane highway. You're just going to get smacked."

Posey has said he felt Cousins could have slid around him but also said it was a legal play.

"Show them the plate," Bench said. "You can always catch the ball and step, or step and catch the ball, as long as you've got the runner on the ground. And if you have the runner on the ground, there's less chance of any severe collision."

In a statement released Saturday by the Giants, Posey sought to distance himself from the reported death threats.

"I appreciate the continued support of Giants fans and others as I begin the process of working my way back," Posey said in the release. "But in no way do I condone threats of any kind against Scott Cousins or his family.

"As I said last week, I'm not out to vilify Scott," the statement reads. "I appreciate that he made the effort to reach out to me on the night of the play, but I was in no physical condition to talk to anyone. I have not been back with the team since that night, so I haven't even been aware of any other messages he's left for me. We all need to move on, so it isn't necessary to have a conversation with him at this point."

Giants general manager Brian Sabean had criticized Cousins on his weekly radio show, calling the play malicious and unnecessary. Sabean also said "if I never hear from Cousins again, or he doesn't play another day in the big leagues, I think we'll all be happy."

Sabean's comments got the attention of Major League Baseball, and executive vice president of baseball operations Joe Torre spoke with Sabean on Friday. The Giants also issued a statement saying Sabean's comments were made out of frustration, and the GM was trying to reach Cousins.

"We intend to move beyond conversations about last week's incident and focus our attention on Buster's full recovery and on defending our World Series title," the team said in the statement.

Cousins also issued a statement Friday and apologized again for the collision.

Florida manager Edwin Rodriguez said before Friday's game against the Milwaukee Brewers that he doesn't have to defend his young outfielder because Cousins didn't do anything wrong.

"As a team we don't have anything to say," Rodriguez said. "If people want to keep talking about that, let them talk."

[chiefzilla1501]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6625504

Johnny Bench puts Buster Posey at fault

He's not putting Buster Posey at fault. He's saying that the way he played the ball made him more vulnerable to getting hit. Like I said, I have no problem with Posey getting hit. But I have yet to hear a good reason for why a player should be allowed to cut into the pitcher's side of the foul line and should be allowed to launch his shoulder into a catcher like a battering ram.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15201655

The answer: "it's always been done that way" isn't good enough. Just because it's always done that way, doesn't make it right.

[whoman69]

He's not putting Buster Posey at fault. He's saying that the way he played the ball made him more vulnerable to getting hit. Like I said, I have no problem with Posey getting hit. But I have yet to hear a good reason for why a player should be allowed to cut into the pitcher's side of the foul line and should be allowed to launch his shoulder into a catcher like a battering ram.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15201655

The answer: "it's always been done that way" isn't good enough. Just because it's always done that way, doesn't make it right.

If the catcher can block the plate, then he has to take the consequences. If Posey had caught the ball, finished his motion of blocking the plate and Cousins was out sliding, the controversy wouldn't have been as much, but everyone would have said Cousins was stupid.

[chiefzilla1501]

If the catcher can block the plate, then he has to take the consequences. If Posey had caught the ball, finished his motion of blocking the plate and Cousins was out sliding, the controversy wouldn't have been as much, but everyone would have said Cousins was stupid.

That still doesn't justify why Cousins should be allowed to cut into the pitcher's side of the foul line. And again, there is no justification for a runner launching into the catcher using his shoulder as a battering ram.

I am not saying Cousins should slide. I'm saying 1) he should be asked to run on the outside of the basepath and 2) his shoulders should be required to be parallel to the ground. You can still knock the shit out of a catcher that way, but it takes away the ability to launch at a catcher like a missile. To point 1... it's illegal to run inside the base path to first, why is it legal going home? To point 2... let's assume Posey ducked out of the way when he saw Cousins launched into him. Cousins would miss home plate entirely and tumble on his shoulder. Why? Because he was aiming for a knockout instead of at least making an attempt for the plate. If you watch Pete Rose's collision with Fosse, you'll see that he knocks the shit out of him but his shoulders are parallel to the ground and he's aiming for home plate. I have absolutely no problem with hits like that.

[whoman69]

Its not illegal to run inside the basepaths on the way to first unless it interferes with the throw. Cousins made an attempt to touch the base coming in and in fact touched the plate but retouched it to make sure. You could make that claim on any collision at the plate, that if the catcher does an el toro the runner will miss the plate. The play at the plate has always been different because the catcher with their equipment will try to block the plate. The only real way to stop collisions is to outlaw catchers blocking the plate.

[chiefzilla1501]

Its not illegal to run inside the basepaths on the way to first unless it interferes with the throw. Cousins made an attempt to touch the base coming in and in fact touched the plate but retouched it to make sure. You could make that claim on any collision at the plate, that if the catcher does an el toro the runner will miss the plate. The play at the plate has always been different because the catcher with their equipment will try to block the plate. The only real way to stop collisions is to outlaw catchers blocking the plate.

If you are inside the basepaths a few steps away from first base, you will more than likely end up interfering with the throw.

No, I cannot make the claim that if a catcher does an el toro, the runner will usually miss the plate. If you are sliding or running with your shoulders parallel to the ground, you will make progress toward the plate. Cousins hit Posey with his shoulders facing the ground. Much the same way you would ram a door open with your shoulders. Try an experiment out: dive forward with your arms forward. Now dive forward as if you're ramming a door open. You tell me if the latter makes any kind of sense if you're trying to reach safely into a base.

In other words, if you're going to knock a catcher out, I would rather you form tackle him than go for a kill shot. At least with a form tackle, you're making a reasonable attempt at getting to the base.