Ozzie Guillen on the Royals

[Dave Lane]

Since its Ozzie Guillen post nite what the fuck...

And I don't give a single shit if its a repost :p :p :p

Baseball wisdom teaches never to judge too much by performances in spring training or September.

If that’s true, the White Sox might not have to fret their tumbling September fortunes — or fear a bright final month by the Kansas City Royals.

But if the Royals are hinting at something real, the competition in the American League Central will only be tougher next season.

The Royals — 2-1 winners against the Sox on Sunday — may even be the team to watch.

‘‘They’re going to be awesome,’’ Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said. ‘‘They’re not too far away. I talked to the players out there, I talked to the [general manager, Dayton Moore], I talked to the manager [Ned Yost] — that’s a great job they’re doing. They pick the right guys with the first-round picks, they put a team together that will hopefully — for them, not for us — have a lot of talent.’’

Guillen isn’t alone in his opinion of the Royals.

‘‘I talked to [Cleveland Indians] Manny Acta, and any manager in our division,’’ Guillen said. “The first thing they talk about is how good [the Royals] are and how hard they hit the ball. Ask the pitchers. There are a lot of tough outs there.

‘‘You talk about the future, I think these are maybe the guys with the best future in our division. You look at Detroit, they’ve got the big boys, but in the future, I think Kansas City is way in front of a lot of [teams].’’

[Sure-Oz]

2012 should be fun

[Shogun]

One thing I liked about Ozzie was his Honesty

[SPchief]

Link?

[alnorth]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7874311-417/royals-show-theyre-the-team-to-watch-as-kc-beats-white-sox-2-1.html

Royals have been 15-8 in September. The rookies have basically made the jump, and they are on fire, beating the opposing pitcher's brains in, to the point of not only pulling the Royals away from 100 losses, but maybe even 90 losses.

All they need is pitching, maybe this offseason. They get a couple legit pitchers, and things could happen in 2012...

[Dave Lane]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7874311-417/royals-show-theyre-the-team-to-watch-as-kc-beats-white-sox-2-1.html

[Dave Lane]

Dayton has got to get 2 stinking pitchers. 2 solid starters next year and look out...

[BigMeatballDave]

Just thinking about the potential of this team gives me a semi

[tyton75]

screw 2 pitchers... get as many quality pitchers you can get this offseason! cause I'm sure one of them will probably suck

[bsp4444]

So are the Royals above .500 since the All Star break?

[Dragonocho]

I'm skeptical. The Royals had the best record in baseball in September 09 and the best record in Apr 10 and folded due to lack of pitching and production. No doubt the production will be there next year but pitching is not there yet. A promising club but there ain't 27 pennants hanging from the K yet. And Glass is still the owner.

[notorious]

I have heard this story repeated every year for 20 years.

[Saul Good]

Yost is excited about having a healthy Jason Kendall back next spring.

[alnorth]

I'm skeptical. The Royals had the best record in baseball in September 09 and the best record in Apr 10 and folded due to lack of pitching and production. No doubt the production will be there next year but pitching is not there yet. A promising club but there ain't 27 pennants hanging from the K yet. And Glass is still the owner.

Those teams did not have 5 rookies in the field, who were all good position prospects and did not bust. (yet)

There's a difference between a small sample-size fluke with a team full of old and mediocre players having a good stretch, and a young team starting to routinely win games 7-3. They aren't eking out 1 and 2-run wins, they have been beating the holy hell out of the other teams in our division.

[Saul Good]

I have heard this story repeated every year for 20 years.

Really? Have you ever seen us blow out the Twins with 6 rookie starters, a rookie in middle-relief, and a rookie to close out the game?

[eazyb81]

I would absolutely love to see DM make a splash this offseason and trade for a legit #1 or #2 starter using our minor league depth.

We are on the cusp of being a contender, and we need to finally use the resources of our farm system to improve the MLB roster.

[loochy]

Another year, another crappy season, another offseason of false hope, another "yeah but we have prospects"

[HemiEd]

I have heard this story repeated every year for 20 years.

Yeah, maybe so, but I guarantee this is different. If you have watched them lately, the difference is quite evident. These youngsters have the talent and confidence and the game is not too big for them.

Watching Moustakas suffer though that slump was painful. I was thinking they should set him down, before he totally lost his confidence, but the coaches knew what they were doing.

I can see Moustakas, Hosmer, Perez, Butler and Gordon being a "murderers row" for many years to come. You just expect them to hit the ball hard, every time. It is fun as hell to watch, and I don't recall it being like this for 25 years. Even then, the Royals didn't have this many power guys.

[TEX]

Since its Ozzie Guillen post nite what the ****...

And I don't give a single shit if its a repost :p :p :p

Baseball wisdom teaches never to judge too much by performances in spring training or September.

If that’s true, the White Sox might not have to fret their tumbling September fortunes — or fear a bright final month by the Kansas City Royals.

But if the Royals are hinting at something real, the competition in the American League Central will only be tougher next season.

The Royals — 2-1 winners against the Sox on Sunday — may even be the team to watch.

‘‘They’re going to be awesome,’’ Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said. ‘‘They’re not too far away. I talked to the players out there, I talked to the [general manager, Dayton Moore], I talked to the manager [Ned Yost] — that’s a great job they’re doing. They pick the right guys with the first-round picks, they put a team together that will hopefully — for them, not for us — have a lot of talent.’’

Guillen isn’t alone in his opinion of the Royals.

‘‘I talked to [Cleveland Indians] Manny Acta, and any manager in our division,’’ Guillen said. “The first thing they talk about is how good [the Royals] are and how hard they hit the ball. Ask the pitchers. There are a lot of tough outs there.

‘‘You talk about the future, I think these are maybe the guys with the best future in our division. You look at Detroit, they’ve got the big boys, but in the future, I think Kansas City is way in front of a lot of [teams].’’

Yeah - but they won't be able to keep the players...Then they'll suck forever again - have a good season or two - rince / repeat.

[SAUTO]

Yeah - but they won't be able to keep the players...Then they'll suck forever again - have a good season or two - rince / repeat.

its ignorant posts like this that makes me LMAO

[loochy]

its ignorant posts like this that makes me LMAO

Why would that make you LMAO?

It's to be expected until the Royals actually do something for once.

[cmh6476]

Dayton has got to get 2 stinking pitchers. 2 solid starters next year and look out...

we've had our fair share of stinking pitchers. 2 quality pitchers would be nice.

[TEX]

its ignorant posts like this that makes me LMAO

Ok - I'll play. Prove me wrong. Are you really going to try and play the "Royals are good and will remain good by keeping their good players" game???...They have words for delusional thinking like that.

[TEX]

Why would that make you LMAO?

It's to be expected until the Royals actually do something for once.

This. The voice of reason...

[Three7s]

Lol @ the trolls in this thread.

[loochy]

Lol @ the trolls in this thread.

It's not trolling. It's the fact that we've heard this same crap for the last 15 years.

[Three7s]

It's not trolling. It's the fact that we've heard this same crap for the last 15 years.
True, and that's because every time there was a "wave" of talent that came up, it was always something that made the Royals slightly better, but never complete. Namely, they never got pitching. If Moore can sign a couple of pitchers that actually pan out, the Royals might have something. They certainly have the offense now.

[chop]

Already trying to sell next years tickets.

[HemiEd]

True, and that's because every time there was a "wave" of talent that came up, it was always something that made the Royals slightly better, but never complete. Namely, they never got pitching. If Moore can sign a couple of pitchers that actually pan out, the Royals might have something. They certainly have the offense now.

The difference now, and the previous times, the number of really, really good players.

There was always, one maybe two, who would end up wanting to get the fuck out of town. They were the only star on a poor team. That list is long.

Now there is a team full of these studs. They seem to genuinely enjoy and believe in each other as well.

[cmh6476]

also, when the royals are good then us fans buy more tickets and royals front office has more money to spend on these good players. Isn't that how it works?

[loochy]

also, when the royals are good then us fans buy more tickets and royals front office has more money to spend on these good players. Isn't that how it works?

supposedly

unless the front office just pockets the extra money ala Clark Hunt

[DanT]

I have a lot of hope, too. I often listen to the Royals on XM Radio, so I get to hear the radio announcers from other clubs around the league, and it's a consistent theme these past few months that the Royals are a team whose record doesn't match their talent, especially their ability to hit the ball hard. They also talk about their incredible penchant for outfield assists, but that's not as important as having a bunch of fearsome line-drive hitters throughout the lineup. There's a big difference in the way the folks around the league regard this particular group of players. If we can get a couple of solid starters, I think we're going to be looking at least a few 90+ win seasons from this squad.

[Three7s]

The difference now, and the previous times, the number of really, really good players.

There was always, one maybe two, who would end up wanting to get the **** out of town. They were the only star on a poor team. That list is long.

Now there is a team full of these studs. They seem to genuinely enjoy and believe in each other as well.
I was talking more about the group in the early 2000s. Dye, Beltran, Damon, Sweeny and the group rather than later on. If that team had any pitching at all, they would've been unstoppable.

[FringeNC]

The Royals overall run differential is something like -28, a team that should be barely under .500. And that's for the season. I wonder what it is over the last few months.

With this pitching staff, we'd be .500 next year, but to be good next year, we'll need better pitching. Who knows what Moore is thinking. Is he planning on Montgomery and Oridizzi successfully making the jump? What's Paulino's contract status? He's been a legit 2 or 3 starter since we got him. Great pick up.

[duncan_idaho]

Yeah - but they won't be able to keep the players...Then they'll suck forever again - have a good season or two - rince / repeat.

The last time the Royals had a group of players worthy of extending, they kept only Mike Sweeney. It sucked, and many still feel that burn. But since then... every young player of value brought up by the Royals has been extended:

Greinke (his trade was NOT a cost-cutting move)
Soria
Butler

Gordon's extension will get done this offseason, and if Eric Hosmer can be extended, they will do it (it's a matter of Boras agreeing to it).

I would predict the Gordon extension will be in the 4 years/$50 million range (with a team option that takes it to 5/62 or something like that) If Gordon is extended through 2015, here's the position group, with years of control listed in parentheses.

2 - Salvador Perez (2017)
3 - Eric Hosmer (2017)
4 - Johnny Giavotella (2017)
5 - Mike Moustakas (2017)
6 - Alcides Escobar (2015)
7 - Alex Gordon (2015*)
8 - Melky Cabrera (2012)/Lorenzo Cain (2017)
9 - Jeff Francouer (2013)
DH - Billy Butler (2015)

That's a four-year run where, assuming Gordon's contract is extended, your core offensive players are held together.

The key is going to come down to pitching and making some smart moves. Deez and I have talked about this a lot (I think it was Deez), about how you have to make some smart moves to complement your prospects, whether they're trades or finding someone on the trash heap who's workable (see: Tampa Bay with Carlos Pena, their relief core, etc).

I'd argue that the Royals have made one good trade. The Greinke haul looks pretty good right now and will look even better if Odorizzi is a) part of a trade to get a James Shields or someone similar; b) in the rotation before next year is over.

Felipe Paulino looks to me like one of those "lucked into" pickups. He's probably never more than a No. 3 starter (unless he REALLY gets the walks down), but he's a workhorse with electric stuff.

And Francouer and Cabrera look like "smart" signings.

My offseason dream:

Melky Cabrera and a MilB piece (Will Smith?) to San Francisco for Jonathan Sanchez.

Jake Odorizzi, Chris Dwyer, David Lough and Clint Robinson for James Shields/pitcher at that level. This is a similar price to what Tampa received for Matt Garza (who was younger and had an additional year of control). I wouldn't opposed to offering something to the Cubs for Garza.

[duncan_idaho]

The Royals overall run differential is something like -28, a team that should be barely under .500. And that's for the season. I wonder what it is over the last few months.

With this pitching staff, we'd be .500 next year, but to be good next year, we'll need better pitching. Who knows what Moore is thinking. Is he planning on Montgomery and Oridizzi successfully making the jump? What's Paulino's contract status? He's been a legit 2 or 3 starter since we got him. Great pick up.

Paulino is controlled through 2014.

[SAUTO]

Ok - I'll play. Prove me wrong. Are you really going to try and play the "Royals are good and will remain good by keeping their good players" game???...They have words for delusional thinking like that.

duncan idaho said it better than I, but the key words are COST CONTROLLED players that will supposedly form the core until 2017

[SAUTO]

supposedly

unless the front office just pockets the extra money ala Clark Hunt

worry about that in 5 years.

quit bitching about what MIGHT happen then.

[loochy]

worry about that in 5 years.

quit bitching about what MIGHT happen then.

Yeah, you're right.

This team has a history of stellar front office management, so I'm sure everything will be hunky dory. :thumb:

[FringeNC]

Paulino is controlled through 2014.

Great news. Thanks.

[Dragonocho]

My offseason dream:

Melky Cabrera and a MilB piece (Will Smith?) to San Francisco for Jonathan Sanchez.

Jake Odorizzi, Chris Dwyer, David Lough and Clint Robinson for James Shields/pitcher at that level. This is a similar price to what Tampa received for Matt Garza (who was younger and had an additional year of control). I wouldn't opposed to offering something to the Cubs for Garza.


IMO I would veto trading Odorizzi. He's a year away from MLB service and in a 2-3 years will be a dominant pitcher. Position player prospects (Colon) yes. Promising pitching prospects, never.

[alnorth]

Another year, another crappy season, another offseason of false hope, another "yeah but we have prospects"

They are not prospects. Prospects are minor league players.

Our major league starting lineup, 1 through 9, is either great, pretty good, or good enough. We have no holes in the lineup, and our bullpen is decent.

[alnorth]

Yeah, you're right.

This team has a history of stellar front office management, so I'm sure everything will be hunky dory. :thumb:

Money and keeping players has not been the problem for a while now. This is not the early 90's anymore, revenue in baseball has exploded, and revenue sharing has MASSIVELY improved. Its still not a level playing field, we may not keep every single player, and the Yankees have an advantage, but the "we're too poor" excuse from the Moneyball days doesn't really fly anymore. We get a pretty big pile of money every year through revenue sharing.

Not all that long ago, we had a fairly large payroll, but we wasted that money on a bunch of bums. That has been the problem the last 5 or 6 years: wasting all our money on bad players through the magic of sheer stupidity.

Today DM appears to be, usually, not an idiot. We paid Gil Meche, we paid and wanted to continue paying Greinke, we recently paid Frenchy, we gave Butler a fat extension, we made Soria rich, this whole "the royals wont spend money" argument is just dead-ass wrong.

Glass has also promised the player's union that the money we are saving now will be spent later when our players get near free agency. Profit now, lose money later, break even overall, thats the plan. There is no reason why we should not keep many of our good players this time around.

[duncan_idaho]

IMO I would veto trading Odorizzi. He's a year away from MLB service and in a 2-3 years will be a dominant pitcher. Position player prospects (Colon) yes. Promising pitching prospects, never.

I'd move him if the price was right (28-30 starting pitcher who is at least a true No. 2 starter and has a few years of team control left).

Odorizzi's potential likely tops out as a No. 2 or No. 3 pitcher. In my mind, trading a guy who MIGHT be a good No. 2 in a few years for a guy who IS a good No. 2 now (and someone who might be signable long-term) is OK.

Especially since Montgomery, Crow, Lamb all still lurk around the edge of the rotation and are potential contributors over the next few years.

In the minors, the only guys I'd really be upset about seeing traded are Montgomery, Wil Myers and Cheslor Cuthbert. Anything else is fair game when it comes to getting some veteran pitching help over the next few years.

[loochy]

Money and keeping players has not been the problem for a while now. This is not the early 90's anymore, revenue in baseball has exploded, and revenue sharing has MASSIVELY improved. Its still not a level playing field, we may not keep every single player, and the Yankees have an advantage, but the "we're too poor" excuse from the Moneyball days doesn't really fly anymore. We get a pretty big pile of money every year through revenue sharing.

Not all that long ago, we had a fairly large payroll, but we wasted that money on a bunch of bums. That has been the problem the last 5 or 6 years: wasting all our money on bad players through the magic of sheer stupidity.

Today DM appears to be, usually, not an idiot. We paid Gil Meche, we paid and wanted to continue paying Greinke, we recently paid Frenchy, we gave Butler a fat extension, we made Soria rich, this whole "the royals wont spend money" argument is just dead-ass wrong.

Glass has also promised the player's union that the money we are saving now will be spent later when our players get near free agency. Profit now, lose money later, break even overall, thats the plan. There is no reason why we should not keep many of our good players this time around.

Well, awesome then. Hopefully this all translates to a successful season sometime soon. I'd love to see that stadium fill up again.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I certainly can understand that people who don't follow the Royals/baseball are going to think this is just another year of false hope... and why shouldn't they? Stinking has become common place over the last 26 years. The team hasn't kept their good players much in the past and hasn't spent for good new players... I get it.

I'm glad to tell those of you that are still under this assumption that this is different. You don't have to believe me or any of us who follow. Time will show you.

Go Royals!

:thumb:

[alnorth]

In the minors, the only guys I'd really be upset about seeing traded are Montgomery, Wil Myers and Cheslor Cuthbert. Anything else is fair game when it comes to getting some veteran pitching help over the next few years.

I don't know, with our outfield and the year he had, Myers is beginning to look tradeable. I'd consider flipping him for pitching.

[alnorth]

Well, awesome then. Hopefully this all translates to a successful season sometime soon. I'd love to see that stadium fill up again.

To play devil's advocate, nothing is guaranteed. Well Hosmer is probably a guaranteed star at this point, and Butler will always be decent as a DH, but thats it.

Giavotella has been OK. Perez has far exceeded expectations. He might not be for real and could stink it up next year. Moose struggled horribly to start and is only now coming around. Maybe he didn't really adjust and got lucky in September. Escobar's glove is probably guaranteed, but lately he's been hitting a hell of a lot better than we have any right to hope for. (He probably wont hit like he did in September, if he did he'd be the most valuable player in all of baseball) Maybe he'll regress a lot more than just a little. This is the first year Frenchy and Gordon have ever kicked ass in their entire professional careers. Maybe they had a classic contract year and will sit back fat and happy next year.

That probably won't happen and I'm inclined to think our offense will be great, but if it does, we'll suck and that would be a pretty bitter disappointment.

[duncan_idaho]

I don't know, with our outfield and the year he had, Myers is beginning to look tradeable. I'd consider flipping him for pitching.

Yeah, but how nice would it be to add a righthanded version of Eric Hosmer to the lineup in 2013?

Trading Myers this offseason would be trading him at his lowest value point. And it also burns some of the Royals insurance in the outfield. Francouer is only signed for two more years. Even if he doesn't regress, that's a spot that needs to be filled for 2014 and beyond.

I'm a Myers geek, though. Have been from day 1 with him.

[alnorth]

Yeah, but how nice would it be to add a righthanded version of Eric Hosmer to the lineup in 2013?

Trading Myers this offseason would be trading him at his lowest value point. And it also burns some of the Royals insurance in the outfield. Francouer is only signed for two more years. Even if he doesn't regress, that's a spot that needs to be filled for 2014 and beyond.

I'm a Myers geek, though. Have been from day 1 with him.

It would be nice to keep him and see if he can rebound in Omaha. Maybe we can just hire a couple free agent mercenaries with the money we don't dump on Gordon.

Looking at September again, this month has been nuts. If we played an entire season the way we have this month, we'd win 106 games.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

To play devil's advocate, nothing is guaranteed. Well Hosmer is probably a guaranteed star at this point, and Butler will always be decent as a DH, but thats it.

Giavotella has been OK. Perez has far exceeded expectations. He might not be for real and could stink it up next year. Moose struggled horribly to start and is only now coming around. Maybe he didn't really adjust and got lucky in September. Escobar's glove is probably guaranteed, but lately he's been hitting a hell of a lot better than we have any right to hope for. (He probably wont hit like he did in September, if he did he'd be the most valuable player in all of baseball) Maybe he'll regress a lot more than just a little. This is the first year Frenchy and Gordon have ever kicked ass in their entire professional careers. Maybe they had a classic contract year and will sit back fat and happy next year.

That probably won't happen and I'm inclined to think our offense will be great, but if it does, we'll suck and that would be a pretty bitter disappointment.

Well thanks for killing my buzz.... buzzkiller...


:sulk:

[HemiEd]

I was talking more about the group in the early 2000s. Dye, Beltran, Damon, Sweeny and the group rather than later on. If that team had any pitching at all, they would've been unstoppable.

See, I don't see it like that with that group. Sweeney was the only one that wanted to be a Royal. The rest wanted out, and they were not together anyway.

[Demonpenz]

Eric Hosmer is Lou Gerig without Aids, Salvador Perez is the mexican Johnny Bench (Juan Bencho), Moustakas is a left handed Mike Schmitt wtih more power, Escabar is a straight Ozzie Smith. You guys worry too much.

[SPchief]

Well, awesome then. Hopefully this all translates to a successful season sometime soon. I'd love to see that stadium fill up again.

There was almost 30k in that stadium last wed to see them play at home for the last time this year in cold weather. I'd venture that that's stadium is gonna be rocking next year.

[Sannyasi]

Already trying to sell next years tickets.

That's very generous of Ozzie.

[Hootie]

I honestly think a GREAT money bet will be on the Royals to win the Central next year...

[Three7s]

I honestly think a GREAT money bet will be on the Royals to win the Central next year...
Not a bad bet, but the Tigers will be tough next year again.

[HemiEd]

I honestly think a GREAT money bet will be on the Royals to win the Central next year...

I agree, and it has been a long time since that would make sense.

[Josh Lewin the Jew]

20-17 ROFL

[58kcfan89]

See, I don't see it like that with that group. Sweeney was the only one that wanted to be a Royal. The rest wanted out, and they were not together anyway.

I'm really not trying to be a buzzkill, but do we know (or have any indication) that any of these guys are interested in being in KC for the long haul? I love watching the young guys on this team play and am very excited for what they can do over the next few years, but until we can lock at least one of them up long-term (see: Longoria, Evan), I'm always going to be a bit skeptical that we'll be doing the whole "lose free agent, bring up rookie, try to win with young team, repeat" thing for a long time....

[Nightfyre]

Should we deal butler for pitching? I know he's on a royals friendly contract and if he develops just an ounce more power will be a premiere hitter.... but we could probably get some major pitching for him, especially with his team friendly contract. Plus we open up room for up and coming prospects.

[bsp4444]

I absolutely think we should trade Billy for pitching. I say package him up with Soria and one of our high end prospects and go get the best pitcher you can for that price. Could you get Felix for that?

[HemiEd]

I'm really not trying to be a buzzkill, but do we know (or have any indication) that any of these guys are interested in being in KC for the long haul? I love watching the young guys on this team play and am very excited for what they can do over the next few years, but until we can lock at least one of them up long-term (see: Longoria, Evan), I'm always going to be a bit skeptical that we'll be doing the whole "lose free agent, bring up rookie, try to win with young team, repeat" thing for a long time....
I don't blame you for being skeptical, not at all. Did you see the reaction last week when Hosmer got a walk off hit? They were all tackling him, and rolling around on the ground. That is team enthusiasm I don't remember seeing in some time.

Will they all stay? Heck no, they are going to move on to big money probably, when they can. But they are all up together now, unlike previous times.
This team is going to be like the Twins, not the Yankees, but that is the only way a small market team will see any success it appears. But at least the Royals have them for a while, and can reload the minors.

Should we deal butler for pitching? I know he's on a royals friendly contract and if he develops just an ounce more power will be a premiere hitter.... but we could probably get some major pitching for him, especially with his team friendly contract. Plus we open up room for up and coming prospects.
See I don't get it. We just traded the Cy Young winner for prospects. Don't they have some of the pitching picks/prospects ready to do the job as well? Hochevar has taken a while, but he seems to be getting it together. Who are the next 4? Chen? not sure how long he will be around.
Teaford? He looked pretty darn good the one game I got to see of his.

[alnorth]

See I don't get it. We just traded the Cy Young winner for prospects. Don't they have some of the pitching picks/prospects ready to do the job as well? Hochevar has taken a while, but he seems to be getting it together. Who are the next 4? Chen? not sure how long he will be around. Teaford? He looked pretty darn good the one game I got to see of his.

Well, setting aside the fact that Greinke forced our hand (and now it looks like we may have won that trade), any team that wants to seriously compete for a championship needs to have, on paper, a little too much pitching. You have to have 2 good starters, a guy who is decent, and a guy who does not suck throughout the year. However, pitchers get hurt, and pitchers prove that they do, in fact, suck. So you kinda need 6 or 7 of them, 5 of which you are hoping might turn out to be at least a #2 or #3.

We've got some guys we'll go with and some (Hochevar) we'll hope with, but unfortunately for all the great progress or position prospects made, our pitching prospects are having a tough time.

[Dave Lane]

Al I haven't watched the minor league pitchers much. Any hope there for a #2 / #3 type emerging?

[duncan_idaho]

Well, setting aside the fact that Greinke forced our hand (and now it looks like we may have won that trade), any team that wants to seriously compete for a championship needs to have, on paper, a little too much pitching. You have to have 2 good starters, a guy who is decent, and a guy who does not suck throughout the year. However, pitchers get hurt, and pitchers prove that they do, in fact, suck. So you kinda need 6 or 7 of them, 5 of which you are hoping might turn out to be at least a #2 or #3.

We've got some guys we'll go with and some (Hochevar) we'll hope with, but unfortunately for all the great progress or position prospects made, our pitching prospects are having a tough time.

For our pitching prospects...

Montgomery didn't put up great numbers in Omaha this season, but the club is happy with the way he progressed (and apparently he was working on some different things). His advanced numbers show the common stats - ERA, WHIP - are somewhat inflated, and he was pitching in a definite offense league.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Monty make a push out of spring training for a spot in the rotation.

Crow went from being garbage at AA and A ball in 2010 to pitching like an All-Star (until his shoulder problem surfaced - hmm, overuse, Ned?)

Odorizzi put up solid numbers at AA and dominant numbers at A ball. NWA is a tough park for RHP, due to the friendly confines for lefties. He also could get a shot out of spring training.

The other guys that were at the top - Lamb and Chris Dwyer - are behind schedule. Dwyer was maddeningly frustrating (4-5great, dominant innings followed by collapse, over and over again). Lamb had TJ surgery. I doubt either is in the plans until 2013 (though I think Dwyer is trade bait).

I could see Duffy and Montgomery both being members of the rotation throughout next season, with Odorizzi (if he isn't traded) making an appearance in the second half.

Basically, pretty much all of the Royals hitters (Hosmer, Moustakas, Gio, Perez) had good enough seasons to force the Royals hand and bring them up (especially Hosmer and Gio). As a result, the position player infusion is about a season to a half-season ahead of what most people expected.

At the start of the season, it was pretty reasonable to figure we'd see Moose in June, and Hosmer and Monty in July.Obviously, it didn't go quite that way.

[duncan_idaho]

Al I haven't watched the minor league pitchers much. Any hope there for a #2 / #3 type emerging?

Michael Montgomery (AAA) Still viewed by most as a guy with No. 1 upside. Struggled with control in Omaha (a first for him as a pro) as he worked more on secondary offerings than in the past (curve and slider percentages were up, according to scouts). 6-5 lefty with easy heat. Numbers in Omaha aren't as bad as they look, considering the league and some advanced stats.

Jake Odorizzi (AA) Royals MiLB pitcher of the year. Was filthy at advanced A Wilmington, fanning 108 in 78 innings. Had a tough early adjustment period at AA, but bounced back to close the season strong. Very good fastball and fastball command, needs to continue to refine his secondary pitches to reach upside as a good No. 2 starter.

John Lamb (AA) Had TJ surgery in May/June. Which actually was good, as his velocity was way down. (Injury better than sudden velocity loss). Is viewed by many as the best of the Royals pitching prospects. Delayed now until at least 2013 arrival in KC.

Chris Dwyer (AA) Control was a big problem for Dwyer at NWA, as was consistency. Put together a Hochevar-like combo of dazzling first 4-5 innings followed by shellackings as he worked deeper. Honestly is probably a bullpen guy at this point, but could turn it around. Still possesses great CB.

Duffy is already in the bigs. Other guys to note: Will Smith (AA) was solid at NWA and will be one to watch at Omaha next season. Mendoza (AAA) has bad peripherals but great results. Vin Mazzaro (AAA) and Sean O'Sullivan also might get additional looks.

I figure if we get two decent starters out of the group at the upper levels (my money is on Lamb and Montgomery) by 2013, that's still on schedule. I'm all for using Odorizzi/Dwyer to fill a spot with a proven guy. Can't count entirely on this group, IMO...

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'm really not trying to be a buzzkill, but do we know (or have any indication) that any of these guys are interested in being in KC for the long haul? I love watching the young guys on this team play and am very excited for what they can do over the next few years, but until we can lock at least one of them up long-term (see: Longoria, Evan), I'm always going to be a bit skeptical that we'll be doing the whole "lose free agent, bring up rookie, try to win with young team, repeat" thing for a long time....

Francouer just signed a 2 year extension because he said he wants to be here for the turn around he see's happening. I believe (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong here) Gordon is under contract for another year right now and many believe they'll try to sign him long term this off season.

The great thing about the rest of the guys is most of the core players... Hosmer, Mouse, Escobar, Perez, Giavotella, Duffy... are under team control for a long time yet already because they've just come up within the last year. Escobar is a game changer at ss and is finishing his first year after the Grienke trade so he's around a while too.

Naturally not everyone will stay forever but all indications are these guys enjoy playing together and building this together... and most will be here for a while under their current contracts. If we go get the pitching Dayton Moore says we'll go after aggresively this off season and we truly do become a winner then naturally it's going to become more and more likely guys want to stay even once their contracts are up.

When Hosmer came up I remember hearing them talk on a broadcast that he and Moustakas among others spent their time in the minors talking about how they wanted to eventually come up together and make KC a winner again... so the attitude has been there for a while and now we're finally seeing the fruits of the great drafts and trades that stocked the minors. It's finally becoming real rather than just talk and it's happening right before our eyes.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

For our pitching prospects...

Montgomery didn't put up great numbers in Omaha this season, but the club is happy with the way he progressed (and apparently he was working on some different things).

This is an important piece to the Monty story. It's been written about how the team asked him to work on things that he needed to get better at rather than going to his strengths all the time. So in doing that his numbers suffered in the short term in an effort to be better long term.

[Mr. Laz]

it all comes down to 2 things

can the currents repeat what they are doing again
can the Royals add 2 quality starting pitchers to the staff

If they can't add a #1 type then they need to get a couple of #2's. That pushes all the other pitchers down 2 spots and will help make them more competitive.

Hope Chen is our #3

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

it all comes down to 2 things

can the currents repeat what they are doing again
can the Royals add 2 quality starting pitchers to the staff

If they can't add a #1 type then they need to get a couple of #2's. That pushes all the other pitchers down 2 spots and will help make them more competitive.

Hope Chen is our #3

Chen should be the #5 guy, #4 tops. If of course the pitching aquisitions take place... if they don't then he'll be leaned on more heavily.

Of course there's no guarantees the young guys will be successful long term but there's also nothing in their past to indicate they won't be. They've all been successful coming up the ladder which is a big part of the reason our minor league system has been the envy of the rest of MLB and now that they're here and playing well it doesn't look like a mirage.

[DeezNutz]

Should we deal butler for pitching?

No. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally no.

The problem is that his trade value is limited. He cannot play a defensive position and has zero athleticism to go with modest power numbers. I'm not as concerned with the power (long-term), but we'd truly be selling low on Butler.

In short, his value to the Royals, which is significant, is more than it would be in terms of a trade.

[Mr. Laz]

Chen should be the #5 guy, #4 tops. If of course the pitching aquisitions take place... if they don't then he'll be leaned on more heavily.

Of course there's no guarantees the young guys will be successful long term but there's also nothing in their past to indicate they won't be. They've all been successful coming up the ladder which is a big part of the reason our minor league system has been the envy of the rest of MLB and now that they're here and playing well it doesn't look like a mirage.
I think Chen stays a #3 because of his work against our division and better consistency.

1. XXXXX
2. XXXXX
3. Chen
4. Hochevar
5. Francis

A couple of quality guys at 1 and 2, the starting pitching doesn't look so bad. The depth created by pushing all the Duffy's,Paulino's etc into middle relief or something helps too. Although i don't know the contract situation for all of them so maybe some of them are leaving.

Dump everything we got into picking up 2 starting pitcher and getting a new contract for Gordon. Imo.

[Shogun]

I absolutely think we should trade Billy for pitching. I say package him up with Soria and one of our high end prospects and go get the best pitcher you can for that price. Could you get Felix for that?

i highly doubt it

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

No. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally no.

The problem is that his trade value is limited. He cannot play a defensive position and has zero athleticism to go with modest power numbers. I'm not as concerned with the power (long-term), but we'd truly be selling low on Butler.

In short, his value to the Royals, which is significant, is more than it would be in terms of a trade.

I was trying to tackle that question earlier but couldn't say it the way I wanted to... the way you said it.

Butler is the most under-appreciated guy I've seen in a long time... and I'm not saying Nightfyre was under-valueing him at all... just that he gets dissed for not being a big home run hitter but in the meantime he's an rbi machine/line drive, gap hitting master. There isn't much in the way of good DH's in the league right now but Butlers one of the best.

[Nightfyre]

No. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally no.

The problem is that his trade value is limited. He cannot play a defensive position and has zero athleticism to go with modest power numbers. I'm not as concerned with the power (long-term), but we'd truly be selling low on Butler.

In short, his value to the Royals, which is significant, is more than it would be in terms of a trade.

That's an interesting point. Thanks Deez. And to be clear, I'm a CountryBreakfast kind of guy. I just wondered if maybe he could bring enough value in a pitcher and open up a spot for a ready minor leaguer to cover his value to the Royals.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I think Chen stays a #3 because of his work against our division and better consistency.

1. XXXXX
2. XXXXX
3. Chen
4. Hochevar
5. Francis

A couple of quality guys at 1 and 2, the starting pitching doesn't look so bad. The depth created by pushing all the Duffy's,Paulino's etc into middle relief or something helps too. Although i don't know the contract situation for all of them so maybe some of them are leaving.

Dump everything we got into picking up 2 starting pitcher and getting a new contract for Gordon. Imo.

Francis is gone, Hoch stepped up and showed his potential in the second half. Duffy is easily in the mix and Paulino has been nothing short of fantastic.. a great diamond in the rough find. If we pick up two quality guys Chen could have a hard time even making the rotation.

I like Chen too and would like to have him back but I still say he's a 5 starter in a good rotation, 4 if we don't find everything we want.

[DeezNutz]

Yeah, don't sleep on Paulino. One can make a great argument--and Rany already has--that he's the most important pitcher on the staff.

[DeezNutz]

I was trying to tackle that question earlier but couldn't say it the way I wanted to... the way you said it.

Butler is the most under-appreciated guy I've seen in a long time... and I'm not saying Nightfyre was under-valueing him at all... just that he gets dissed for not being a big home run hitter but in the meantime he's an rbi machine/line drive, gap hitting master. There isn't much in the way of good DH's in the league right now but Butlers one of the best.

His OPS+ the last three seasons: 125, 134, 126. And some fans don't like him. Unbelievable.

Like you said, that's not the case on this forum; most here appreciate what he brings to the team. The problem is that the trade market for him would be limited because of his obvious shortcomings.

But that doesn't prohibit him from continuing to be a great contributor for this particular club. We don't need him to play in the field; he's accepted his role, and his contract is club friendly.

Uh, winning.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

His OPS+ the last three seasons: 125, 134, 126. And some fans don't like him. Unbelievable.

Like you said, that's not the case on this forum; most here appreciate what he brings to the team. The problem is that the trade market for him would be limited because of his obvious shortcomings.

But that doesn't prohibit him from continuing to be a great contributor for this particular club. We don't need him to play in the field; he's accepted his role, and his contract is club friendly.

Uh, winning.

This.

[alnorth]

Al I haven't watched the minor league pitchers much. Any hope there for a #2 / #3 type emerging?

Others have pretty well covered it. We've got a boatload of prospects, its just that a lot of them wont be ready next spring. We've had a combination of our pitching coming along a little slower than expected and our position players rocketing up faster than expected.

Thats kinda why I'm hoping we can pay 1 or 2 mercenaries this offseason rather than make big trades, we dont need to deal off the farm for someone because you'd hope we'd have some good pitching of our own in 2013 under team control past 2018.

Another Gil Meche type of player, even if we have to overpay a little since we don't have much else to spend money on yet, would be a good move.

[SAUTO]

Others have pretty well covered it. We've got a boatload of prospects, its just that a lot of them wont be ready next spring. We've had a combination of our pitching coming along a little slower than expected and our position players rocketing up faster than expected.

Thats kinda why I'm hoping we can pay 1 or 2 mercenaries this offseason rather than make big trades, we dont need to deal off the farm for someone because you'd hope we'd have some good pitching of our own in 2013 under team control past 2018.

Another Gil Meche type of player, even if we have to overpay a little since we don't have much else to spend money on yet, would be a good move.
This would be best imo. Pay some guys to bridgethe gap.

I have a feeling about odoreazy. I dont want to be right with him somewhere else...
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

While I respect your views, guys, I'm going to have to disagree (and pretty strongly at that). If Odoreasy can help facilitate a trade for a #1 starter, which is extremely rare, it means that we've exponentially won the Greinke trade.

It's not time to hope and wish. We have the resources (prospects and cash), so it's time to make it happen.

[Saul Good]

No. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally no.

The problem is that his trade value is limited. He cannot play a defensive position and has zero athleticism to go with modest power numbers. I'm not as concerned with the power (long-term), but we'd truly be selling low on Butler.

In short, his value to the Royals, which is significant, is more than it would be in terms of a trade.

Butler is 16th in the AL in RBI, and he's 36th in HR.

He had 6 HR at the the All-Star break, and he's had 13 since then. Next year, he's .300, 25, 100. 5-10 years ago, there were 20 guys in the AL who put up those numbers. There might be 5 next year.

You can win a title with him playing DH and hitting 3rd, 5th, or 6th, and he won't turn 26 until just after the start of next season. Hell, I'm not sure there's a hole in our entire lineup short of 2B. Now is the time to buy talent or trade prospects for them. At most, you trade Melky or Frenchy because we have Cain. This lineup is ready to compete, and you don't want to punch a hole in it to patch a hole somewhere else.

1 ?????
2 Hochevar
3 Paulino
4 Duffy
5 Chen/Rookie

We need a solid guy at the top of the rotation. Two would be amazing. I think Duffy takes a big step up next season, and I think Hochevar will be solid. I still worry that Paulino is going to regress, but I think that Chen is very serviceable at the bottom of the rotation. Our bullpen is stacked.

Let's do this, Dayton.

[Saul Good]

While I respect your views, guys, I'm going to have to disagree (and pretty strongly at that). If Odoreasy can help facilitate a trade for a #1 starter, which is extremely rare, it means that we've exponentially won the Greinke trade.

It's not time to hope and wish. We have the resources (prospects and cash), so it's time to make it happen.

Who is disagreeing with that?

[duncan_idaho]

Edwin Jackson is a guy that might make sense if you're trying to avoid making a big trade, though it probably would be hard to do less than a four-year deal around $12 million per.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

While I respect your views, guys, I'm going to have to disagree (and pretty strongly at that). If Odoreasy can help facilitate a trade for a #1 starter, which is extremely rare, it means that we've exponentially won the Greinke trade.

It's not time to hope and wish. We have the resources (prospects and cash), so it's time to make it happen.

I'd fine with that. Right now we need the bird in the hand rather than the two we have in the bush.

[DeezNutz]

Who is disagreeing with that?


al and Sauto, both great Royals fans, were kicking the tires on the "pay the mercenaries" route.

Me? No thanks. Use our resources to go get the real goods; that's part of the reason to have a loaded minor league system.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I have to say I've never even considered the hired gun or bridge the gap approach with pitchers this off season. We've had so many rentals before that weren't important to success because we didn't have the core we now have so it didn't even cross my mind.

While it may not be the worst thing while the minor league arms get ready I really hope we look for long term additions instead.

[alnorth]

al and Sauto, both great Royals fans, were kicking the tires on the "pay the mercenaries" route.

Me? No thanks. Use our resources to go get the real goods; that's part of the reason to have a loaded minor league system.

I'd feel differently if we were this good all season and our pitching betrayed us. A few guys have been solid, but a lot of it has been September. I'd hate to trade some key pieces to go for it this year, discover "woops, Perez actually sucks, Escobar is not cracking 600 OPS, and Giavotella is awful. Damn the pitching we traded off is blowing up in AAA and will come up quicker than expected." If our offense is really this good, then a hired gun will give us a great chance to win our division, especially if the playoffs expand to 5 per league.

I do believe in the old saying that prospects are fine but flags fly forever, but I need to see more than what we've seen.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'd feel differently if we were this good all season and our pitching betrayed us. A few guys have been solid, but a lot of it has been September. I'd hate to trade some key pieces to go for it this year, discover "woops, Perez actually sucks, Escobar is not cracking 600 OPS, and Giavotella is awful. Damn the pitching we traded off is blowing up in AAA and will come up quicker than expected." If our offense is really this good, then a hired gun will give us a great chance to win our division, especially if the playoffs expand to 5 per league.

I do believe in the old saying that prospects are fine but flags fly forever, but I need to see more than what we've seen.

I hate it when you make more sense than me. Which is pretty much always.

[tredadda]

See, I don't see it like that with that group. Sweeney was the only one that wanted to be a Royal. The rest wanted out, and they were not together anyway.

Not true. Beltran wanted to stay and had we offered him like $1,000,000 more (if memory serves me right) we would have retained him. Dye also wanted to stay. The only one who we had little chance of retaining is Damon. It was sad too because I remember when he came up and how excited he was to be a Royal and how he wanted to make the team better. First chance though he left and it really bothered me then, and it makes me hope the others (mainly Hosmer and Moustakas) don't end up the same way.

[tredadda]

I absolutely think we should trade Billy for pitching. I say package him up with Soria and one of our high end prospects and go get the best pitcher you can for that price. Could you get Felix for that?

No chance. NY tried earlier to trade for him and Seattle said no way. They want to build around him, so trading for him would be like trading Seattle for Andrew Luck, both are practically untradeable.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Not true. Beltran wanted to stay and had we offered him like $1,000,000 more (if memory serves me right) we would have retained him. Dye also wanted to stay. The only one who we had little chance of retaining is Damon. It was sad too because I remember when he came up and how excited he was to be a Royal and how he wanted to make the team better. First chance though he left and it really bothered me then, and it makes me hope the others (mainly Hosmer and Moustakas) don't end up the same way.

I'm not sure you're right that Beltran and Dye wanted to stay... I never heard that. But assuming you are all I can say is the leadership for the most part is different now. That may be worth nothing but it may be worth something.

[Mr. Laz]

1 ?????
2 Hochevar
3 Paulino
4 Duffy
5 Chen/Rookie
Duffy hasn't been that good and we can't afford to expect that much from Hoch. People don't give Chen enough credit imo.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9977/33825265.jpg

[tredadda]

I'm not sure you're right that Beltran and Dye wanted to stay... I never heard that. But assuming you are all I can say is the leadership for the most part is different now. That may be worth nothing but it may be worth something.

I do remember reading about losing Beltran over pocket change (by MLB contract standards) and I also remember reading about Dye wanting to stay and we either traded him or let him walk (can't remember at the moment). I do have faith that the leadership is different, I just hope we can become the Royals I remember as a kid where they were consistently good. I don't want us to be the Royals that they have been for the past 20 years. I know we wont retain everybody, I am just hoping we can retain at least Moose and Hosmer and continue to build around them.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Duffy hasn't been that good and we can't afford to expect that much from Hoch. People don't give Chen enough credit imo.



Duffy had control issues this year but he's got the stuff. He has to get better or he won't figure in long term. They changed some things in Hoch's delivery mid season and he was nails after that. Really no reason to think he/they didn't figure it out. He's at least a competitor for a high spot in the rotation next year. I don't undervalue Chen at all, I love the guy. He's one of the more under-rated players in the league.

The point about Duffy is that he's still a kid and figures to get better. Hoch LOOKS to have found it.

I know you weren't even responding to me but I'm putting my 2 cents in anyway. IF we're able to get what we want this off season we have more talented guys than Chen already. Doesn't mean they all work out over him.

Mike Montgomery is likely to be in the mix too and he's got better stuff than any of the guys we have already.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I do remember reading about losing Beltran over pocket change (by MLB contract standards) and I also remember reading about Dye wanting to stay and we either traded him or let him walk (can't remember at the moment). I do have faith that the leadership is different, I just hope we can become the Royals I remember as a kid where they were consistently good. I don't want us to be the Royals that they have been for the past 20 years. I know we wont retain everybody, I am just hoping we can retain at least Moose and Hosmer and continue to build around them.

Fair enough I just didn't hear that stuff. Luckily we have more to build on now than just Hoz and Moose and a better GM and an owner thats loostening the purse strings a bit at least.

Here's to the future!

[HemiEd]

I do remember reading about losing Beltran over pocket change (by MLB contract standards) and I also remember reading about Dye wanting to stay and we either traded him or let him walk (can't remember at the moment). I do have faith that the leadership is different, I just hope we can become the Royals I remember as a kid where they were consistently good. I don't want us to be the Royals that they have been for the past 20 years. I know we wont retain everybody, I am just hoping we can retain at least Moose and Hosmer and continue to build around them.

Hmm, I remember it a lot different, but that doesn't mean I am right. It was my understanding that Beltran wanted out, and there was very little opportunity to retain him. Much like Damon, bright lights and cash.

Dye, not so much, but we do both agree on Damon.

But even so, they were not all of the same class like this bunch, which is why it appears to be so much better to me.
They may do some great things, and want to be reasonable and stay together.

[ROYC75]

No. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally no.

The problem is that his trade value is limited. He cannot play a defensive position and has zero athleticism to go with modest power numbers. I'm not as concerned with the power (long-term), but we'd truly be selling low on Butler.

In short, his value to the Royals, which is significant, is more than it would be in terms of a trade.

This, nail meet the head! Let him produce more power at the plate on a smaller contract.

I have refrained for a long time on Royals comments, but watching and keeping track from a distance. I have seen them from their existence to present. The club has taken the right approach, again, starting from the farm system back up, one could say that we are going back to the glory days of doing things. I think DM is doing a good job of building up and soon he will land a few bigger names to help complement the players we have.

Next year we will contend, barring any major pitching changes. The year after that we should rule the Central.

[tredadda]

Hmm, I remember it a lot different, but that doesn't mean I am right. It was my understanding that Beltran wanted out, and there was very little opportunity to retain him. Much like Damon, bright lights and cash.

Dye, not so much, but we do both agree on Damon.

But even so, they were not all of the same class like this bunch, which is why it appears to be so much better to me.
They may do some great things, and want to be reasonable and stay together.

I hope you are right because I love the direction this team is heading. They have alot of exciting young talent that could make some noise starting next year and for the subsequent years. That excitement and chemistry will pay off if we get a little bit of pitching. I don't live in KC anymore, but I do visit there on occasion and would definatley like to go to a game and see the stadium sold out again, which I don't remember seeing since the George Brett days.

[BigCatDaddy]

I do remember reading about losing Beltran over pocket change (by MLB contract standards) and I also remember reading about Dye wanting to stay and we either traded him or let him walk (can't remember at the moment). I do have faith that the leadership is different, I just hope we can become the Royals I remember as a kid where they were consistently good. I don't want us to be the Royals that they have been for the past 20 years. I know we wont retain everybody, I am just hoping we can retain at least Moose and Hosmer and continue to build around them.

Raul Ibanez is the one we lost over 1 million, but he was only asking for 3 for 9 or something similar. Beltran and Dye were both wanting big money that we were never thinking about paying to multiple guys.

[Sannyasi]

I think if you have a chance to get a legitimate ace, you have to do it A real #1 pitcher is something this team is going to need in order to compete down the line, and expecting Odorizzi to develop into that guy is putting a lot of faith in someone who still has a loooong way to go.

[HemiEd]

Raul Ibanez is the one we lost over 1 million, but he was only asking for 3 for 9 or something similar. Beltran and Dye were both wanting big money that we were never thinking about paying to multiple guys.

That is how I remember it. Sweeney got all the money.

[Dragonocho]

That is how I remember it. Sweeney got all the money.

Hopefully a different GM (technically a different owner too) changes the outcome this time. But the economics of baseball today are so unfavorable in general towards the Royals and favorable towards the big market teams that I won't hold my breath.

[BigCatDaddy]

Hopefully a different GM (technically a different owner too) changes the outcome this time. But the economics of baseball today are so unfavorable in general towards the Royals and favorable towards the big market teams that I won't hold my breath.

I think they will keep at least some of them, HOWEVER even if they don't keep them all then this time there should be high touted prospects ready to come in and take over compared to the trash that was in the system before so you shouldn't have such a dramatic drop off in talent for the next decade like last time.