Refs Bail Out Giants, Cite Obscure BS Rule

[Backwards Masking]

Anyone else see this atrocity yesterday? I know I'm prone to being distrustful towards the refs, Goodell, and the NFL in general, but it's hard not to be when crap like this happens. I know, I know, "good teams find a way to overcome the bad calls". But I'm sorry, no way the refs bail out Cleveland or Minnesota or KC or Jax the way they did Litte Brother and the Big Apple like they did here.

I guess what I'm wondering most is if if anyone out there agrees with this call, why? and if you don't agree with it, am i a nut for suggesting the league caters to the Big Market Teams via obscure BS rule referferences like ive seen them do for years?

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Refs did nothing its in the rule book.

[Backwards Masking]

Refs did nothing its in the rule book.

Uh, going to the ground without being touched, then losing control of the ball (even voluntarily) means it's live ball. That's also a rule.

Dungy among a sh*tton of other coaches and players were every bit as disgusted by this as I was.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

it's a somewhat confusing rule. Part of the rule starts out saying a player sliding feet first, but it goes on to say a player falling down, without stipulating that he has to be feet first. I can see the confusion.

[Hammock Parties]

must protect The Last Manning

[Buck]

There's a chance that call will make me lose my fantasy game.

My opponent has both Manning and Hakeem Nicks. The next play was a 40 yard Nicks TD catch.

[CoMoChief]

A player is ruled down when he goes down..or kneels without making an attempt to progress forward. In this case refs partially used better judgement and common sense being that they ruled he was avoiding contact by going down..surrendering his forward progression ...I 100% agree with the call.

[cdcox]

It's confusing to me too. Clearly the way that Cruz got up off the turf leaving the ball on the turf he considered himself down. What is the difference between considering yourself down and giving yourself up? In my mind, by leaving the ball on the turf, that is a clear indication that he had given himself up.

In contradiction to this line of thought, a couple years ago, some hot shot WR caught the ball and spun it on the turf in celebration without being touched, and that was considered a fumble, if I remember correctly.

So yeah, it's confusing.

[Buck]

Oh yeah, when Vincent Jackson did this 3 or 4 years ago they ruled it an illegal forward pass.

When Richard Goodman did it last year, it was ruled a fumble and the other team recovered.

[Backwards Masking]

A player is ruled down when he goes down..or kneels without making an attempt to progress forward. In this case refs partially used better judgement and common sense being that they ruled he was avoiding contact by going down..surrendering his forward progression ...I 100% agree with the call.

No way in hell did he exercise an obvious give up situation. Hell, ive seen players fall similiarly, not get touched, get up and run it in for a TD. If he wanted to "give himself up" he would have slid. he DID NOT slide, therefore he wasn't down.

It's not the refs job to use "better judgement", "common sense" and help played "avoid contact". It's their job to REF THE F*CING GAME, which means enforcing the rules, not intrepreting them on a sitation to situation basis (that always seem to benefit NY and Pitt and the like, never Arizona or Tennesee).

[Hootie]

dude he fell down...sat there...sat the ball down and ran back towards the huddle

he thought he was down, and he gave himself up

I hate big market teams and this was nothing more than a call following the rule book

[jd1020]

No way in hell did he exercise an obvious give up situation. Hell, ive seen players fall similiarly, not get touched, get up and run it in for a TD. If he wanted to "give himself up" he would have slid. he DID NOT slide, therefore he wasn't down.

It's not the refs job to use "better judgement", "common sense" and help played "avoid contact". It's their job to REF THE F*CING GAME, which means enforcing the rules, not intrepreting them on a sitation to situation basis (that always seem to benefit NY and Pitt and the like, never Arizona or Tennesee).

Wtf are you talking about? He was running with 2 defenders infront of him, looked back and saw one coming up from behind, and went to the ground. He then put the ball on the ground and started towards the huddle.

It's in the fucking rule book. He went to the ground and made no attempt at forward progress. Play dead.

[-King-]

Receivers give themselves up all the time. I didn't think this was as big a deal as some are making it.

[Garcia Bronco]

I didn't see the play, but as soon as a QB starts to slide feet first the ball is dead.

[Backwards Masking]

I didn't see the play, but as soon as a QB starts to slide feet first the ball is dead.

He didn't slide though.

[jd1020]

He didn't slide though.

The rule does not include the language "must slide feet first."

[Backwards Masking]

It's in the ****ing rule book. He went to the ground and made no attempt at forward progress. Play dead.

he didn't slide. if he doesn't slide, the play stays going. that's in the rulebook too. Play not dead.

[jd1020]

he didn't slide. if he doesn't slide, the play stays going. that's in the rulebook too. Play not dead.

See above post.

[Backwards Masking]

The rule does not include the language "must slide feet first."

You sure about that? Surely they draw a line on what constitutes "giving yourself up" more clearly than "giving yourself up". Dungy swore it was sliding yesterday during the post game stuff.

[jd1020]

You sure about that? Surely they draw a line on what constitutes "giving yourself up" more clearly than "giving yourself up". Dungy swore it was sliding yesterday during the post game stuff.

The rule has been read verbatim on about every single sports show over and over all day. No where in the rule does it say "must slide feet first."

[lcarus]

The rule has been read verbatim on about every single sports show over and over all day. No where in the rule does it say "must slide feet first."

I thought a slide indicated feet first? Head first would be a dive. How the **** do you slide without sliding feet first?

[jd1020]

I thought a slide indicated feet first? Head first would be a dive. How the **** do you slide without sliding feet first?

What does it matter since its not in the rule? It says "gives themselves up." He gave himself up and started back towards the huddle. The refs called it by the rulebook. They didn't give the Giants the game.

This is stupid.

[Backwards Masking]

The rule has been read verbatim on about every single sports show over and over all day. No where in the rule does it say "must slide feet first."

i could have sworn it was always sliding that made it such, I know for a fact Dungy said it was yesterday. kinda weird they wouldnt draw the line anywhere. for example, what if a player trips on his own feet in open terriroty, and gets called down even though he shoudlnt be and could ve gotten up and ran for a td. lots of room for "judgement calls" "common sense" and "player safety" for the refs to decide split second on fall downs that may or may not be so obvious.

i think they make an obivous sign for giving yourself up (ie sliding), so theres no room for error or bias. otherwise people will always wonder if something stinks.

[lcarus]

What does it matter since its not in the rule? It says "gives themselves up." He gave himself up and started back towards the huddle. The refs called it by the rulebook. They didn't give the Giants the game.

This is stupid.

It doesn't make any difference. I was just curious how one slides any other way than feet first. That's what a ****ing slide is lol.

[jd1020]

i could have sworn it was always sliding that made it such, I know for a fact Dungy said it was yesterday. kinda weird they wouldnt draw the line anywhere. for example, what if a player trips on his own feet in open terriroty, and gets called down even though he shoudlnt be and could ve gotten up and ran for a td. lots of room for "judgement calls" "common sense" and "player safety" for the refs to decide split second on fall downs that may or may not be so obvious.

i think they make an obivous sign for giving yourself up (ie sliding), so theres no room for error or bias. otherwise people will always wonder if something stinks.

There are also a lot of "what ifs" in your scenario that didn't happen yesterday.

[Backwards Masking]

What does it matter since its not in the rule? It says "gives themselves up." He gave himself up and started back towards the huddle. The refs called it by the rulebook. They didn't give the Giants the game.

This is stupid.

The rulebook, if it actually says "gives themselves up" without a clear indication of what consitutes such, is VERY open to interpretation, and needs to be changed.

Or changed back....Dungy said the rule was always sliding yesterday, before the media put their PR spin on it today. if the giants fall out of the hunt early, not as many people watch the prrime timers later this year, and LOTS of ratings and money in advertising gets lost. Just kinda weird.

[jd1020]

It doesn't make any difference. I was just curious how one slides any other way than feet first. That's what a ****ing slide is lol.

Baseball players slide head first all the time.

[jd1020]

"Official shall declare ball dead ... when runner declares himself down by falling to ground or kneeling & making no effort to advance."

[Backwards Masking]

"Official shall declare ball dead ... when runner declares himself down by falling to ground or kneeling & making no effort to advance."

What we, as fans, should all be asking ourselves is: Did it read exactly like this in the Sept. rulebook or was it changed at 5-6 o clock whatever yesterday to protect the leagues best interest (East coast team and integrity).

Actually, what we as fans should ask for is a complete NFL rulebook every early Sept. to check ourselves when calls like this are made.

FWIW, anyone out there no if there is an online version of one (dated for 2011 but prior to this weekend of course)? Anyone who finds one and points this definition out would really help restore my faith in the refs. Thanks.

[lcarus]

Baseball players slide head first all the time.

Well in football if a QB goes head first, it's not a slide is what I meant. They're fair game to get hit.

[CoMoChief]

No way in hell did he exercise an obvious give up situation. Hell, ive seen players fall similiarly, not get touched, get up and run it in for a TD. If he wanted to "give himself up" he would have slid. he DID NOT slide, therefore he wasn't down.

It's not the refs job to use "better judgement", "common sense" and help played "avoid contact". It's their job to REF THE F*CING GAME, which means enforcing the rules, not intrepreting them on a sitation to situation basis (that always seem to benefit NY and Pitt and the like, never Arizona or Tennesee).

You're completely wrong. I'm beginning to think u didn't even watch the play.

[CoMoChief]

What we, as fans, should all be asking ourselves is: Did it read exactly like this in the Sept. rulebook or was it changed at 5-6 o clock whatever yesterday to protect the leagues best interest (East coast team and integrity).

Actually, what we as fans should ask for is a complete NFL rulebook every early Sept. to check ourselves when calls like this are made.

FWIW, anyone out there no if there is an online version of one (dated for 2011 but prior to this weekend of course)? Anyone who finds one and points this definition out would really help restore my faith in the refs. Thanks.
What u think this is all part of some kind of conspiracy? ROFL

[lcarus]

So Cruz technically could have gotten up there and taken off for a TD? Did the whistle blow? Maybe Cruz did decide that he had given up on the play and went down. But I'd bet if he knew he wasn't down by contact he would have tried to get more yardage, and as long as the play hadn't been whistled dead it would have been legal for him to do so. It's just a rule I've never seen before. Kinda like the tuck rule...

[BigMeatballDave]

The officials are very inconsistent with this rule.

Anyone remember that game 5-6 yrs ago, Denver vs Indy?

Marvin Harrison catches it, goes into a fetal position, Donkey DB's standing over him then he gets up and runs because he wasn't touched?

[CoMoChief]

Receivers give themselves up all the time. I didn't think this was as big a deal as some are making it.

Its a big deal if u believe in conspiracy theories and don't know the rules of pro football...because you get a dumb and pointless thread as an end result.

[CoMoChief]

So Cruz technically could have gotten up there and taken off for a TD? Did the whistle blow? Maybe Cruz did decide that he had given up on the play and went down. But I'd bet if he knew he wasn't down by contact he would have tried to get more yardage, and as long as the play hadn't been whistled dead it would have been legal for him to do so. It's just a rule I've never seen before. Kinda like the tuck rule...

He wouldn't have gotten far..he was surrounded by 3 defenders

[CoMoChief]

The officials are very inconsistent with this rule.

Anyone remember that game 5-6 yrs ago, Denver vs Indy?

Marvin Harrison catches it, goes into a fetal position, Donkey DB's standing over him then he gets up and runs because he wasn't touched?

Yes....that was a bad call on the refs part...he should have been down....that's why u always taught to finish the play or listen for the whistle

[BigMeatballDave]

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=C67pGdr4v0g

I haven't figured out how to embed from my phone.

[ClevelandBronco]

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=C67pGdr4v0g

I haven't figured out how to embed from my phone.

Cool link. I got this: Autumn/fall inspired Make up look

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4EV_2_k9Cyk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Dylan]

Cruz should have handed the ball to the ref. However, he did 'gave himself up.' If you watch the replay, Cruz turns his head and sees the DBs coming at him and goes down. His first move was to turn and hurry back in the huddle. He made no effort to advance.

The applicable rule in the 2011 NFL Rule Book is found on page 35.

Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 states that “An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: (e): when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance.”

The Key "... making no effort to advance."

There was about two minutes of game time. The Cardinals best chance to win was to stop Eli. When I came back into the apt from the hallway. The Cardinals had no defense. Therefore, they lost the game.

Doesn't a player 'give himself up' by kneeling down without being touched?

Here's the difference with the Chargers at Patriots in 2010:

http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2010/10/24/Patriots_Chargers_Foo_Star_s300x177.jpg?b6032450c34f53ae476bbf3640a2e26a9eb7e9d4

ASSOCIATED PRESS San Diego Chargers wide receiver Richard Goodman, right, drops the ball as New England Patriots safety Brandon Meriweather, center, and cornerback Devin McCourty, left, dive for it in the second half during an NFL football game Sunday, Oct. 24, 2010, in San Diego. The play resulted in a turnover for the Chargers.



And to all a good night....

[Backwards Masking]

You're completely wrong. I'm beginning to think u didn't even watch the play.

Dungy and his entire crew Sunday (who all agreed with me) must not have either. There needs to be a clear sign for "giving yourself up", anyone that wants rules consistnetly enforced can admit that.

[Backwards Masking]

Cruz should have handed the ball to the ref. However, he did 'gave himself up.' If you watch the replay, Cruz turns his head and sees the DBs coming at him and goes down. His first move was to turn and hurry back in the huddle. He made no effort to advance.

The applicable rule in the 2011 NFL Rule Book is found on page 35.

Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 states that “An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: (e): when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance.”

The Key "... making no effort to advance."

There was about two minutes of game time. The Cardinals best chance to win was to stop Eli. When I came back into the apt from the hallway. The Cardinals had no defense. Therefore, they lost the game.

Doesn't a player 'give himself up' by kneeling down without being touched?

Here's the difference with the Chargers at Patriots in 2010:

http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2010/10/24/Patriots_Chargers_Foo_Star_s300x177.jpg?b6032450c34f53ae476bbf3640a2e26a9eb7e9d4

ASSOCIATED PRESS San Diego Chargers wide receiver Richard Goodman, right, drops the ball as New England Patriots safety Brandon Meriweather, center, and cornerback Devin McCourty, left, dive for it in the second half during an NFL football game Sunday, Oct. 24, 2010, in San Diego. The play resulted in a turnover for the Chargers.


And to all a good night....

Thank you

[Backwards Masking]

Its a big deal if u believe in conspiracy theories and don't know the rules of pro football...because you get a dumb and pointless thread as an end result.

Judging by the consistenties of the call (see an above post above Marvin Harrison getting up and running or a TD in an identical situation) we apparetnly know them at least as well as the refs making 60k a year to enforce them.

if it's so dumb and pointless why are you here defending a call that gets reguarly f*cked up?

i suppose you supported overturning the Polamolu pick against Indy in the playoffs 6 years ago after rolling on the ground twice and getting up and running before fumbling because he "did not make a move particularly common to the game of football" because, it's IN THE RULES. I suppose anyone that doubted the ref's sincerity in making that call should just look the other way because it's "dumb and pointless" and certainly wasn't indended to help Pey Pey. Right?

[Demonpenz]

I'm kinda digging just if you go down you are down.

[Demonpenz]

no being touched or whatever. like college

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Former head of officiating Mike Pereira was another who said it was a bad call. Said the officials shouldn't have protected Cruz from his own stupidity. I tend to agree with that as the call could have easily gone the other way as we've seen before. I guess next time a guy slides down and then runs in for a TD, that should be negated because he "gives himself up".

[Molitoth]

Considering Cruz placed the ball on the ground and was heading back to the huddle, they made the right call. It was a judgement call.

If someone dropped a $100 bill on the ground and you saw it, would you give it back to them ethically, or would you keep it and claim "Fair game"?

The call was the ethical call to make.

Good job officials.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

Considering Cruz placed the ball on the ground and was heading back to the huddle, they made the right call. It was a judgement call.

If someone dropped a $100 bill on the ground and you saw it, would you give it back to them ethically, or would you keep it and claim "Fair game"?

The call was the ethical call to make.

Good job officials.

WTF are you talking about? The rules of a game have nothing to do with ethics.

[Mike in SW-MO]

The receiver stated in an interview that he thought he was touched. He did not "give himself up."

He incorrectly decided he was touched and went to return to the huddle.

The refs protected him from his own stupidity.

[Brock]

Considering Cruz placed the ball on the ground and was heading back to the huddle, they made the right call. It was a judgement call.

If someone dropped a $100 bill on the ground and you saw it, would you give it back to them ethically, or would you keep it and claim "Fair game"?

The call was the ethical call to make.

Good job officials.

That's insane. You're either down by contact or not. He was clearly not down.

[lcarus]

You know an easy fix to this BS? Just make a ball carrier down when their knee or elbow touches the ground, like in college.

[Brock]

You know an easy fix to this BS? Just make a ball carrier down when their knee or elbow touches the ground, like in college.

Yeah, no thanks.

[lcarus]

Yeah, no thanks.

Why not?

[Brock]

Why not?

Because if I want to watch college football, I'll watch college football.

[Amnorix]

Because if I want to watch college football, I'll watch college football.

This.

[jd1020]

Because if I want to watch college football, I'll watch college football.

How does changing 1 rule make the NFL = College. How many College teams field a full roster of NFL players? 0.

[Brock]

How does changing 1 rule make the NFL = College. How many College teams field a full roster of NFL players? 0.

Going down to avoid contact = College football.

[lcarus]

Going down to avoid contact = College football.

Apparently they can do that in the NFL anyway according to this rule from the Giants game.

[Brock]

Apparently they can do that in the NFL anyway according to this rule from the Giants game.

That's why the rule is BS. It's made up nonsense that only applies when they want it to.

[jd1020]

Going down to avoid contact = College football.

Because no one already does that right? Unless you consider being touched by a finger contact.

[Brock]

Because no one already does that right? Unless you consider being touched by a finger contact.

In the NFL, at least up until now, if you aren't touched, you can get back up and keep running. It's called playing to the whistle. If they want to pussify the game even more than they already have, the game won't be as good.

[lcarus]

That's why the rule is BS. It's made up nonsense that only applies when they want it to.

I agree the rule is BS. A player should only be down once the whistle is blown, unless they're clearly already out of bounds or its a QB sliding. It was never confusing until now.

[jd1020]

In the NFL, at least up until now, if you aren't touched, you can get back up and keep running. It's called playing to the whistle. If they want to pussify the game even more than they already have, the game won't be as good.

What does that have to do with players going down to avoid contact?

[ClevelandBronco]

Going to the ground hoping you won't get hit doesn't work in Smear the Queer, and it shouldn't work in the NFL.

[Brock]

What does that have to do with players going down to avoid contact?

Think about it a little more.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Going to the ground hoping you won't get hit doesn't work in Smear the Queer, and it shouldn't work in the NFL.

Yep, the dumbass was bailed out by the refs. You know his heart was going 1000 miles an hour when he saw the Cardinals dive on the football and realized he hadn't been touched.

[jd1020]

Think about it a little more.

What's there to think about? Someone falling down when making a catch or stumbling over themselves in the back field has nothing to do with someone going to the ground to give themselves up and avoid a hard hit.

[Backwards Masking]

Going to the ground hoping you won't get hit doesn't work in Smear the Queer, and it shouldn't work in the NFL.

If this doesn't sum up the thread perfectly than I don't know what does.

[whoman69]

Like the tuck rule, we're going to see every ref interpreting it this way after the shitstorm that it riled up. I don't know why the refs didn't just say they blew it and ruled him down by contact?