After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law Read more: http://www

[Lzen]

I realize this may have to go to D.C. I just thought the regulars might wanna read this.



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/05/after-gibson-raid-other-guitar-makers-at-risk-breaking-law/?test=latestnews?test=latestnews

It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C.

But Berkowitz's guitars include fretboards and bridges made from Indian rosewood and ebony, which the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service declared to be illegal to import in its actions against Gibson Guitar back in August. Now, every time Berkowitz uses that wood to build his immaculate instruments, he is potentially breaking the law.

"I use the exact same ebony and rosewood fingerboards that were confiscated in August from Gibson," Berkowitz told Fox News.
Does that mean he is "engaging in illegal business practices?"
"Well, technically speaking, yes, because they have declared the materials I'm using illegal," he said.

But whether the Indian rosewood and ebony that Berkowitz and Gibson -- and so many other guitar makers -- use is really illegal depends on who is asked.

According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.

"Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/india.htm#r_src=ramp) allows free export of such finished products of wood."

The U.S. government disagrees. In its affidavit (http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/politics/2011/10/05/gibson-raid-affidavit/) to search Gibson, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service considers fingerboard blanks to be raw materials, not finished product -- illegal to export from India and, therefore, illegal to import into the United States (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/u.s.htm#r_src=ramp).

What's more, according to the complaint, the Gibson wood was imported with an incorrect tariff code, which was off by one digit from the correct code. Luthiers Mercantile International, the company that imports the wood for Gibson, claims that was a simple clerical error. The difference in the codes refers to the thickness of the wood -- more than or less than six millimeters in thickness.

Since the government raided Gibson, Luthiers Mercantile has been unable to import any Indian rosewood or ebony. As it is a major supplier to guitar makers across the nation, it means the companies can't get wood either. Berkowitz said now he would be afraid to use it anyway.

"One fine from Fish and Wildlife would shut me down and bankrupt me," he said.

Gibson was raided for suspected violations of the Lacey Act, a 1900 law initially crafted to protect rare and exotic birds, whose feathers were prized for women's hats. It was amended in 2008 to include wood. The main driver was to protect the U.S. forest industry against cheap foreign competition that involved illegal logging. But it also helped protect sensitive forests and rare species of trees against poachers.

But the law appears to have also had the unintended effect of stifling American business.

The National Association of Music Merchants, which represents some 9,000 manufacturers and retailers wrote a letter (http://www.namm.org/public-affairs/articles/letter-national-association-music-merchants-namm-p) to President Obama (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/obama-administration/barack-obama.htm#r_src=ramp) and every member of Congress, complaining about the confusion left in the wake of the Gibson raid.

"Many of NAMM's member companies are being negatively impacted by the Lacey Act, a well-intentioned law, but one with unintended consequences that we feel are damaging to our industry and the economy," NAMM's chairman and president wrote.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/lamar-alexander.htm#r_src=ramp), R-Tenn. co-sponsored the amendment to the Lacey Act. He suggested changes may be needed.

"It had nothing to do with guitars," he said. "So it's not unusual for laws to have unintended consequences. And when they do, we legislators ought to say, 'Whoops, we didn't think of that. That may be a problem. Let's see if we can fix it.'"

Alexander's Democratic co-sponsor, Sen. Ron Wyden (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/ron-wyden.htm#r_src=ramp) of Oregon, declined to to discuss the issue with Fox News. Instead, his office accused Fox News of "whipping up opposition" to the Lacey Act, and said that outside of Gibson, they hadn't heard of any complaints. Fox News provided his office with the letter from NAMM.

While Alexander acknowledges there appear to be problems with the Lacey Act as it applies to the music industry, Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., said the bigger problem is government overreach.

"It's not about the Lacey Act," she said. "What this is about is selective enforcement, excessive enforcement. It's about lack of clarity, confusion and uncertainty pertaining to a law."

She added that she has heard plenty of anxiety across the country from musical instrument craftsmen and furniture makers, who all feel at risk now that Gibson was raided by armed federal agents.
"Many people look at this and say, 'If it happened to Gibson, could it happen to me?'"

Not surprisingly, all this doesn't sit well with Tea Party (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/tea-party.htm#r_src=ramp) activists who organized a large rally in support of Gibson in Nashville on Saturday. Amy Kremer, president of the Tea Party Express, said she can't fathom why the Feds targeted Gibson over wood the Indian government says is legal.

"We believe this is exactly what we (the Tea Party) are fighting against, the big overreach of government. We're simply not going to stand for it," she said.

While the issue has turned political, Berkowitz said he doesn't think it is a matter of Republican versus Democrat. A registered Democrat himself, he said he sees a more ominous picture -- the possible death of the American artisan class.

The modern acoustic guitar was born in America, as was the electric guitar. And while guitar-making is not uniquely American, its most respected manufacturers are in the United States. Gibson, Martin, Fender, Taylor, Paul Reed Smith, Collings, Ribbecke, Breedlove are some leading names on the list.

What's really at stake, Berkowitz said, is history.

"Everything from Gene Autry (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/entertainment/music/country/gene-autry.htm#r_src=ramp) and Elvis to Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/entertainment/music/pop-rock-1955-2002/woody-guthrie.htm#r_src=ramp). The old American songbook is founded on the steel string acoustic guitar. And that industry is currently threatened by the Lacey Act," he said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/05/after-gibson-raid-other-guitar-makers-at-risk-breaking-law/?test=latestnews?test=latestnews#ixzz1a0tZ7My2

[loochy]

its effing wood....wtf

although i say just smuggle in some seeds and grow your own trees

[ReynardMuldrake]

I realize this may have to go to D.C. I just thought the regulars might wanna read this.



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/05/after-gibson-raid-other-guitar-makers-at-risk-breaking-law/?test=latestnews?test=latestnews

It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C. [...]


The Son of Sam makes guitars now?

[vailpass]

Fuck this. EPA, Fish & Wildlife, NLRB, etc. all need to be reigned in with the directive to allow commerce to grow and flourish unless an imminent need says otherwise. This economy cannot afford to have business throttled by government agencies acting in the extreme.

[Huffmeister]

The Son of Sam makes guitars now?

Yup. The dog told him to.

[Lzen]

**** this. EPA, Fish & Wildlife, NLRB, etc. all need to be reigned in with the directive to allow commerce to grow and flourish unless an imminent need says otherwise. This economy cannot afford to have business throttled by government agencies acting in the extreme.

This.

[Demonpenz]

After large fines and possible jailtime guitar makers will soon be changer their tune -Atchison Times

[Demonpenz]

Local guitar makers won't Fret over laws.
Some of the laws struck a chord with business owners.
Hard to imagine how the laws would play on this scale.
Jail Time and Fines bring a double Whammy (bar) to guitar makers

[loochy]

After large fines and possible jailtime guitar makers will soon be changer their tune -Atchison Times

ROFL I'm sure the Atchison Times writes headlines in Chinese immigrant Engrish.

[mnchiefsguy]

Martin guitars use the same wood...but they gave money to Obama and Democrats, so they have not been shut down in the slightest. Gibson gave some money to the Republicans .

[ModSocks]

WTF? Why would they make importing Rose Wood and Ebony Illegal? Are the Rose Wood Cartel's getting out of hand or something?

[philfree]

So why is against the law to import the wood? Because it's endangered? And why did they have to raid Gibson? Couldn't they have just sent a letter to comply followed up by an inspection? I see alot of wrong going on here.

[vailpass]

So why is against the law to import the wood? Because it's endangered? And why did they have to raid Gibson? Couldn't they have just sent a letter to comply followed up by an inspection? I see a lot of wrong going on here.

Good questions which I'd like to see answered. While they are at it they can also tell us what the public gains by their interference with an established American employer and how this supports the administration's claims that they are dedicated to creating jobs.

Would like to see Gibson join Boeing in some economic civil disobedience.

[philfree]

So why is against the law to import the wood? Because it's endangered? And why did they have to raid Gibson? Couldn't they have just sent a letter to comply followed up by an inspection? I see alot of wrong going on here.


Lucky someone wasn't shot. I can hear it so clearly. "Dude pulled a Les Paul on me so I had to cap his ass."

[mikey23545]

Thank goodness we haven't left it up to the Indians to decide whether it's legal for them to export wood from their own country or not...

[mnchiefsguy]

Rosewood from Brazil comes from areas near the rainforest, etc. It has gotten rarer over the years. My Dad is a guitar collector, and Brazilian Rosewood guitars, whether they are Martins or Gibsons or independently made, have commanded a premium price for many years.

[Lzen]

Local guitar makers won't Fret over laws.
Some of the laws struck a chord with business owners.
Hard to imagine how the laws would play on this scale.
Jail Time and Fines bring a double Whammy (bar) to guitar makers

ROFL

I repped you for the first post, but this one is much better. :thumb:

[Demonpenz]

I really wish there was an interview with reporters that went like this

Buisness Guitarman :I don't give a flying YOU KNOW WHAT about these laws (trying not to say a cuss word)
Reporter: A flying-V?
Businessman Guitarman: Yes I don't give a flying V about the laws.

[DMAC]

Huh? So no more rosewood fretboards??

[Dave Lane]

Martin guitars use the same wood...but they gave money to Obama and Democrats, so they have not been shut down in the slightest. Gibson gave some money to the Republicans .

Yeah thats it. You are a moran.

[Dave Lane]

There's only about 16,000 other woods they could use, but if the other country legally allows its export I don't see the issue.

[mnchiefsguy]

Yeah thats it. You are a moran.

Explain it to me then, why hasn't Martin's factoried been busted? They are using the exact same wood, from the same suppliers, and are completely out in the open about it. Seems kind of odd to me, but I am sure you have an explanation for that.

Nothing against Martins, they are greatest guitars on earth, but Gibson should not be held to a different standard in their manufacturing than Martin, whether it is for politics, or something else.

So tell me, Mr. Smartypants, why did Gibson get shut down and Martin did not, since you seem to have so much knowledge about the situation?

[mnchiefsguy]

There's only about 16,000 other woods they could use, but if the other country legally allows its export I don't see the issue.

Rosewood is what buyers of guitars want. Many claim that a rosewood guitar sounds better. Not sure if I believe that, but the market demand is for the rosewood.

[vailpass]

There's only about 16,000 other woods they could use, but if the other country legally allows its export I don't see the issue.

Does it tickle your partner's shaft when you talk out of your ass?

[Dave Lane]

Does it tickle your partner's shaft when you talk out of your ass?

Awww look you put a picture of your penis in your avatar. Its pretty cool you can make it actual life sized like that. You are definitely a special guy.

[ModSocks]

Huh? So no more rosewood fretboards??

I wonder if this will drive up the resale value of my bass in a few years......

[DMAC]

Awww look you put a picture of your penis in your avatar. Its pretty cool you can make it actual life sized like that. You are definitely a special guy.

You are leaving the door wide open for valipass to say how "that is to scale"

[4th and Long]

And this is why I still own my old American Fender Stratocaster. :)
Posted via Mobile Device

[Lzen]

And this is why I still own my old American Fender Stratocaster. :)
Posted via Mobile Device

I like Strats, but you couldn't pry away my Les Paul from me.

[Demonpenz]

I like Strats, but you couldn't pry away my Les Paul from me.

well yeah, it's too fucking heavy to get it away from you.

[2bikemike]

I am pretty certain Taylor Guitars use a lot of the same stuff. It would be a local shame to see them hurt by this.

[mnchiefsguy]

I am pretty certain Taylor Guitars use a lot of the same stuff. It would be a local shame to see them hurt by this.

My Dad has a couple of Taylor guitars. They are very nicely made. I would hate to see them get shut down.

[orange]

Explain it to me then, why hasn't Martin's factoried been busted? They are using the exact same wood, from the same suppliers, and are completely out in the open about it. Seems kind of odd to me, but I am sure you have an explanation for that.


Uh ... no.

Chris Martin, Chairman and CEO of the C.F. Martin Guitar Co. in Nazareth, Pa., says that when he first heard guitars built from Madagascar rosewood, he dreamed it might be the long-sought substitute for Brazilian rosewood, whose trade was banned in the 1990s due to over-harvest. Then the situation in Madagascar changed.

"There was a coup," Martin says. "What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That's when we said, 'Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.'"

And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

[MahiMike]

Man, for $10K, it better have some inlaid Indian Gold.

[Dave Lane]

You are leaving the door wide open for valipass to say how "that is to scale"

No its actual size. He keeps Farveing me in hopes of a response. I had to let him down easy.

[mnchiefsguy]

Uh ... no.

Chris Martin, Chairman and CEO of the C.F. Martin Guitar Co. in Nazareth, Pa., says that when he first heard guitars built from Madagascar rosewood, he dreamed it might be the long-sought substitute for Brazilian rosewood, whose trade was banned in the 1990s due to over-harvest. Then the situation in Madagascar changed.

"There was a coup," Martin says. "What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That's when we said, 'Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.'"

And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

Actually, yes they do. They may not be buying it right now, but the Lacey act is retroactive, and Martin has used that wood in the past:

http://www.martinguitar.com/artists/display_artist.php?d=388

Here is one example.

I love Martin guitars. Like I said, my Dad owns several and has collected them for years. He has had Gibsons as well, and Taylor guitars. They have all used this wood, because it is the closest thing to Brazillian Rosewood that you can get. This whole think stinks, and Gibson is being singled out for some reason.

Part of what the Justice Department seized was actually Indian Rosewood, according to npr:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

Here is another article pointing out that many guitar manufacturers use this wood:

http://sharemyguitar.com/blog/did-gibson-use-endangered-rosewood-in-their-guitar-necks/

That article is from 2009, before the coup in Madagascar.

This question has been asked for a long time, but Gibson seems to me is being held to a higher standard than the rest of the guitar world.

The coup that the Martin CEO talks about really has nothing to do with the wood being endangered, and whether it should be used or not.

[orange]

Actually, yes they do. They may not be buying it right now, but the Lacey act is retroactive, and Martin has used that wood in the past

Did is not do. And while the Lacey Act may be retroactive, this case doesn't involve any retroactivity at all. It was new wood, just received, that was seized.

This question has been asked for a long time, but Gibson seems to me is being held to a higher standard than the rest of the guitar world.

There is a criminal investigation going on involving this Gibson wood, and probably their "gray-market" suppliers. This was confirmed in court filings just yesterday. And as for Gibson "being held to a higher standard than the rest" - from that NPR piece - "I really wanted to be clear: the objective of that trip's organizers was to look into whether there were opportunities for 'good wood' sourcing, and in the end after seeing the risks, only Gibson continued to purchase."

[mnchiefsguy]

Did is not do. And while the Lacey Act may be retroactive, this case doesn't involve any retroactivity at all. It was new wood, just received, that was seized.



There is a criminal investigation going on involving this Gibson wood, and probably their "gray-market" suppliers. This was confirmed in court filings just yesterday. And as for Gibson "being held to a higher standard than the rest" - from that NPR piece - "I really wanted to be clear: the objective of that trip's organizers was to look into whether there were opportunities for 'good wood' sourcing, and in the end after seeing the risks, only Gibson continued to purchase."

What was confirmed by the court filings? All I could find was that the prosecutors are asking the judge to delay Gibson's motions to get their property back:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guitar-maker-gently-weeps-over-illegal-wood-charges-2366793.html

Do you have a link to any other court filings concerning this?

[orange]

What was confirmed by the court filings? All I could find was that the prosecutors are asking the judge to delay Gibson's motions to get their property back:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guitar-maker-gently-weeps-over-illegal-wood-charges-2366793.html

Do you have a link to any other court filings concerning this?

Your link doesn't open for me for some reason, but here:

Federal prosecutors confirmed there’s a criminal investigation under way related to the recent raid on Gibson Guitar in a filing that asked a judge to delay efforts by the company to reclaim wood that was seized.

U.S. Attorney Jerry Martin on Wednesday declined to provide more details to The Associated Press. Specifics of the investigation by the Environmental Crimes Section of the Justice Department have been filed under seal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/feds-ask-to-halt-gibson-guitar-wood-seizure-case-while-conducting-related-criminal-inquiry/2011/10/05/gIQAeXnAOL_story.html

[edit] link opened on second try

[mnchiefsguy]

Also, after doing some further reading, it seems that this issue is less about the source of the wood, but whether the wood is considered "finished" when it is imported. According to the Indian government it is, and is legal in their country. But since the Justice Department interprets Indian law differently, Gibson got nailed. Martin and other manufactures use wood in the same condition and build guitars in the same way that Gibson does. Shouldn't they be raided as well?

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/

This seems to be a much more complicated issue than "Gibson bought wood from bad men in some backwater country" that you make it out to be.

[mnchiefsguy]

Your link doesn't open for me for some reason, but here:

Federal prosecutors confirmed there’s a criminal investigation under way related to the recent raid on Gibson Guitar in a filing that asked a judge to delay efforts by the company to reclaim wood that was seized.

U.S. Attorney Jerry Martin on Wednesday declined to provide more details to The Associated Press. Specifics of the investigation by the Environmental Crimes Section of the Justice Department have been filed under seal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/feds-ask-to-halt-gibson-guitar-wood-seizure-case-while-conducting-related-criminal-inquiry/2011/10/05/gIQAeXnAOL_story.html

[edit] link opened on second try

So we still do not know what Gibson is actually charged with, only that the government is fighting Gibson's claim to get their wood back.

[orange]

Here's an excellent summary for everyone's edification: http://soundandfair.org/gibson-lacey-act-music-industry-game-changer

... And ... http://soundandfair.org/lacey-act-targets-instrument-makers-not-musicians

[mnchiefsguy]

Here's an excellent summary for everyone's edification: http://soundandfair.org/gibson-lacey-act-music-industry-game-changer

... And ... http://soundandfair.org/lacey-act-targets-instrument-makers-not-musicians

Thanks for the link, but honestly, if the country exporting the wood says the wood is legal, then why should the U.S. say differently? Sounds like we are trying to impose our standards on other countries.

[orange]

Thanks for the link, but honestly, if the country exporting the wood says the wood is legal, then why should the U.S. say differently? Sounds like we are trying to impose our standards on other countries.

I'm guessing here, but ... I believe the allegations will be that illegal wood is being laundered through India.

Also, the Lacey Act is not a standalone - it's part of international agreements which backwater bureaucrats in India are not empowered to ignore, however much they've collected under the table.

[DMAC]

My Dad has a couple of Taylor guitars. They are very nicely made. I would hate to see them get shut down.

I would like to own a Taylor.

[HonestChieffan]

Thanks for the link, but honestly, if the country exporting the wood says the wood is legal, then why should the U.S. say differently? Sounds like we are trying to impose our standards on other countries.

Same with leopards. Its all a crock.

[Braincase]

I'm curious as to how many guys in this thread have 1) played guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony necks and can tell the difference and 2) ever built their own guitars.

There are some pretty serious issues of over-harvesting relating to to a number of exotic instrument-grade hardwoods. I have a preference for ebony fingerboards, but I know about the problems with Ceylon and Gaboon ebony, and why just about the only ebony you can find these days is Macassar. Some of the same issues come in to play with mahogany. I've worked with a number of different woods for my bodies, whether flamed maple, walnut, purpleheart or good old fashioned alder from Home Depot. Fact is, unless you've worked the wood and know the differences between the various hardwoods and the issues involving their sources and harvesting issues, you really ought to be asking questions rather than passing judgement.

[kysirsoze]

I'm curious as to how many guys in this thread have 1) played guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony necks and can tell the difference and 2) ever built their own guitars.

There are some pretty serious issues of over-harvesting relating to to a number of exotic instrument-grade hardwoods. I have a preference for ebony fingerboards, but I know about the problems with Ceylon and Gaboon ebony, and why just about the only ebony you can find these days is Macassar. Some of the same issues come in to play with mahogany. I've worked with a number of different woods for my bodies, whether flamed maple, walnut, purpleheart or good old fashioned alder from Home Depot. Fact is, unless you've worked the wood and know the differences between the various hardwoods and the issues involving their sources and harvesting issues, you really ought to be asking questions rather than passing judgement.


GTFO!!!!

[crossbow]

[QUOTE=Braincase;7973352]I'm curious as to how many guys in this thread have 1) played guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony necks and can tell the difference and 2) ever built their own guitars.

I played on all three and I like the feel of the rosewood. It sweats with you after you have played a set. It is easier to move your fingers over it but it is a hard wood and so you get more sustain when you want to hold notes. Rosewood necks realy shine when you play outdoors and have to deal with humidity. They don't feel sticky so your fingers gluide over the frets better.

I guess my old Les Paul's value just skyrocketed again.

[mnchiefsguy]

I'm curious as to how many guys in this thread have 1) played guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony necks and can tell the difference and 2) ever built their own guitars.

There are some pretty serious issues of over-harvesting relating to to a number of exotic instrument-grade hardwoods. I have a preference for ebony fingerboards, but I know about the problems with Ceylon and Gaboon ebony, and why just about the only ebony you can find these days is Macassar. Some of the same issues come in to play with mahogany. I've worked with a number of different woods for my bodies, whether flamed maple, walnut, purpleheart or good old fashioned alder from Home Depot. Fact is, unless you've worked the wood and know the differences between the various hardwoods and the issues involving their sources and harvesting issues, you really ought to be asking questions rather than passing judgement.


I can't play, but my Dad has helped build some guitars with a friend of his over the years. It is a fascinating process to watch, and it takes a lot of skill. My Dad's friend was one who could tell the difference when played a guitar. I know he and my Dad worked with maple and some rosewood, but the last guitar they built together was over ten years ago, and maybe even longer.

My Dad still has a couple of the guitars, and they also built a Dobro once, which he still has. It is a fine looking and sounding instrument.

Do you build just guitars, or other instruments as well?

By the way, totally agree with your post--this issue is not nearly as simple as it is being made out to be.

[vailpass]

Whatever you guys did to draw Orange out of the DC sewers please undo it now before the others like him sense this world and try to pass through the portal.