What do the Chiefs have in Kyle Orton?

[chiefzilla1501]

Okay, we're stuck with him. So apart from the "he sucks" or "he's the second coming of Joe Mantegna... er... Montana" shit, let's talk about what the Chiefs really have. Sorry, I've watched Orton play quite a bit, but I've never paid as close attention as I have the past few days, so the picture is incomplete. Here's what I've pieced together. Again, this is based on limited stuff I've seen or read. I know a lot of this is off. Flame away.

History with the Bears
In Chicago, Orton was a guy who knew how to win games. But they didn't ask much of him. His offense was primarily 3-step drops, 1-quick read. Orton admitted that. Not much to gauge here.

Why didn't Orton win games in Denver?
People will point to his record, but let's be fair here. In 2009, he played through an ankle injury in the second half of the season, but still pieced together a decent season. In 2010, he had pretty impressive production, but Denver also had an absolutely atrocious defense and an embarrassingly bad running game.
http://www.denverbroncos.com/schedule-and-events/schedule.html
Check out the leading rushers. The Broncos never had a 60+ yard rusher until week 10 against the Chiefs. Orton is the leader, but he had absolutely no help. I think it would be really interesting to see what Orton can do with a defense behind him and a solid running game to take some pressure on him. Then he loses his coach midseason. Thing about Haley is, even if the running game doesn't work, he's going to stick with it. That's a very different philosophy than McDaniels.

In 2011... man, what a shitty situation. You have a shortened offseason, a brand new coach, brand new offensive system... The main reason for the Denver turnaround is defense. And the running game is starting to get the system. Still, Broncos fans will swear up and down that when they really needed him to step up, he didn't. That's scary, as having ice in your veins late in the game is an extremely important quality for a QB. Very unproven in clutch situations. A more than fair knock.

And sorry, I don't want to hear it that Orton got cut and lost his job to Tebow because he was a bad QB. That's scapegoating at it's finest. Tebow seems to fit well in Fox's system, but that doesn't mean Orton had opportunity to play his way out of a job. That decision was politically charged. And Orton was scapegoated for bigger problems in Denver. 3 different coaches. 1 lockout-shortened preseason. Very poor running/defensive support.

Scouting Report - What do I see?
Again, I'm only basing this on what I remember and what I saw in available highlights. But here's what I see. People are right to say that he's a very polished version of Matt Cassel. He will do all the things Cassel does, but he'll do them better. Much more compact and quick release. Much better deep ball. He'll throw with a lot more zip. And he seems to have a better feel for placing the ball in the right spot, whereas I always felt like Cassel always aimed for the breadbasket.

Orton doesn't look like a very cerebral QB. You can see QBs like Brady and Peyton scrutinizing the shit out of the defense. Then making adjustments. I don't see Orton as that guy. Unlike Cassel, it seems like Orton does a better job of recognizing the rush in his pre-snap reads.

Unlike Cassel, Orton seems like he's going to get the ball out a lot quicker. That has its plusses and its minuses. I didn't sense that he's a "go through the progressions" guy. Like Cassel, I think he'll be a quick read, MAYBE look at a second read, then check down guy. In a lot of cases, he seems to stare down his primary read. Very interesting, that it seems like McDaniels might be the right coach for these kinds of QBs. Interesting that both Cassel and Orton saw some success in his offense with a very quick-read approach. That's not necessarily praise for McDaniels. It's quite possible that Haley's offense might be better suited for a QB that can go through his reads. Just a thought.

I worry a little bit about Orton in pass protection. I blame a lot of o-line protection issues on Cassel. I don't think Orton's that nifty when he's forced to move around. Also, unlike a franchise QB, I worry about his accuracy and his consistency. He seems to throw a lot of really perfectly placed balls, but then he'll miss a few. And he makes some really bone-headed mistakes. I worry about the stigma that he hasn't looked great with the pressure on. At age 29, you don't expect much of this to change.

Final read
I think he can take this team further than Cassel. Cassel very often finds an open receiver and just flat-out whiffs. And his inability to stretch the field really hurts us, because defenses begin to play a very short
field. Orton is going to take a lot more chances and he's going to connect on a lot more deep stuff. And he's going to be accurate on his passes a lot more than Cassel is.

But I view a franchise QB as a QB who can mentally and physically beat your team. On any on-day, Orton can definitely physically beat you. He has a ton to prove to show he can do it mentally. Again, I don't think he's going to change the offense and take over games at the line of scrimmage. But I think he's well-equipped to execute the game that's called.

He's better than people here and in Denver give him credit for (a LOT better), but he's most likely not a guy that can take your team to the Super Bowl. In my opinion, he's going to make Cassel look very bad, because he is going to hit a lot of the receivers that Cassel consistently missed.

But in the end, the Chiefs can't take their eyes off the prize. I like Orton as a stopgap and Cassel replacement. But the Chiefs have to have a young gun who can beat teams physically AND mentally. If they bank on Stanzi, they sure as hell better be right, if that means passing a QB in the first round.

[KCrockaholic]

We have a decent #2 guy that we can hopefully have stick around when we draft our 1st round rookie QB.

A guy who might win a game for us, but will never get us even close to sniffing a championship.

[Imon Yourside]

A lot better QB than failco.

[hometeam]

At best we have a solid stopgap starter.
A little less optimistic of a look might rate him a solid backup.
At worst we have a compensation pick.

It was a smart move any way you slice it.

[Hammock Parties]

3800 yards is "decent?"

Compared to Cassel it makes Orton the GOAT

[Hammock Parties]

People are right to say that he's a very polished version of Matt Cassel.

LMAO

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. They are nothing alike.

Orton has an above average arm and good accuracy. He reads defenses well and gets the ball out. He's also terribly immobile.

Cassel has an average arm and shitty accuracy. Doesn't read defenses well, holds the ball too long. But he's fairly mobile.

They are opposites.

[listopencil]

I'd say that this is spot on.

[chiefs1111]

A QB with a neckbeard?

[J Diddy]

A lot better QB than failco.

Personally I like "Picko" as his nickname.

[chiefzilla1501]

LMAO

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. They are nothing alike.

Orton has an above average arm and good accuracy. He reads defenses well and gets the ball out. He's also terribly immobile.

Cassel has an average arm and shitty accuracy. Doesn't read defenses well, holds the ball too long. But he's fairly mobile.

They are opposites.

Completely disagree.

As I said above, I think they're both similar QBs. They take the play as called, they both rely pretty heavily on the primary read (if not, checkdown), and neither are ones that I think are going to make a whole ton of pre-snap adjustments. The difference is that Orton is going to get rid of the ball quicker, make some better decisions, and throw a better ball (accurate, tighter spiral, more zip).

But this again gets to the point of... if the primary read is consistently shut down, then what. If a team is very creative in blitzing, can they make the proper adjustments (line up your blockers, hit the hot route). Those are things I'd like to see from Orton, but right now, worried about it.

[FloridaMan88]

A solid veteran QB who can serve in the role of back-up/stop-gap QB next year for Barkley or RGIII.

[Okie_Apparition]

He's a dick stanzi blocker/....

[Cosmos]

A second string, mediocre QB that has no interest in staying in KC....!

[Hammock Parties]

Here's what's crazy about Orton "The Pocket Sloth" vs Matt "fairly mobile" Cassel.

Orton: 1.955 sacks per game

Cassel: 2.49 sacks per game

[Iconic]

Lol we only have Orton for one year. Not sure what the buzz is about. Unless we make it to the playoffs with him... I render this season the same as before: Worthless.

[jspchief]

He's a better QB than Cassel. Probably good enough to make this team competitive. But he's not going to take a team anywhere.

[listopencil]

Completely disagree.

As I said above, I think they're both similar QBs. They take the play as called, they both rely pretty heavily on the primary read (if not, checkdown), and neither are ones that I think are going to make a whole ton of pre-snap adjustments. The difference is that Orton is going to get rid of the ball quicker, make some better decisions, and throw a better ball (accurate, tighter spiral, more zip).

But this again gets to the point of... if the primary read is consistently shut down, then what. If a team is very creative in blitzing, can they make the proper adjustments (line up your blockers, hit the hot route). Those are things I'd like to see from Orton, but right now, worried about it.

If Orton gets solid protection he can carve up a D. He has to have that protection, though. He's not a "playmaker" but he will get it into the hands of the playmakers around him just fine. Your line absolutely has to pass block well for him or you're doomed.

[Hammock Parties]

I think they're both similar QBs.

OK.

Orton is going to get rid of the ball quicker, make some better decisions, and throw a better ball (accurate, tighter spiral, more zip).


Contradictory.

Cassel is a terrible passer. The dude was 30th in the freaking league in passing yards. Orton was on pace to throw for 4,500 yards last season with Jabar Gaffney and Brandon Lloyd.

There's no comparison in my mind.

[KCrockaholic]

Here's what's crazy about Orton "The Pocket Sloth" vs Matt "fairly mobile" Cassel.

Orton: 1.955 sacks per game

Cassel: 2.49 sacks per game

Very nice stat finding... I've been wondering this myself yet have not had the motivation to research.

BTW, how many sacks has Kyle Orton given up, compared to Cassel?

[Brock]

A more football savvy Matt Cassel. He'll probably be here a long time.

[listopencil]

A more football savvy Matt Cassel. He'll probably be here a long time.

He's a decent QB. You have to have a good team around him but he can produce.

[chiefzilla1501]

OK.



Contradictory.

Cassel is a terrible passer. The dude was 30th in the freaking league in passing yards. Orton was on pace to throw for 4,500 yards last season with Jabar Gaffney and Brandon Lloyd.

There's no comparison in my mind.

I don't see what's contradictory about it.

They are the same STYLE of QB. They play the game the very same way. Orton just happens to be better at executing.

[Hammock Parties]

Kyle Orton in 33 full games with Denver: 0 games under 100 yards, 1 game under 150 yards.

Matt Cassel in 40 full games with the Chiefs: 6 games under 100 yards, 11 games under 150 yards.

Yep, comparable players!

[listopencil]

Kyle Orton in 33 full games with Denver: 0 games under 100 yards, 1 game under 150 yards.

Matt Cassel in 40 full games with the Chiefs: 6 games under 100 yards, 11 games under 150 yards.

Yep, comparable players!

Apparently a polished turd is more shiny. What's your point GoChiefs?

[Hammock Parties]

They are the same STYLE of QB. They play the game the very same way.

I completely disagree.

You're suggesting a guy who was 30th in the league in passing yards plays the game the same way as a guy who was on pace to throw for 4,500 yards.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Hammock Parties]

Apparently a polished turd is more shiny. What's your point GoChiefs?

Orton > Cassel

[KCrockaholic]

He's a decent QB. You have to have a good team around him but he can produce.

Well we have plenty of talent offensively. Especially once we get Jamaal Charles back. Tis' why we need to draft and develop a QB now rather than later.

[listopencil]

Orton > Cassel

I agree.

[KCrockaholic]

They're both pocket passers? That seems to be their most comparable trait.

[listopencil]

Well we have plenty of talent offensively. Especially once we get Jamaal Charles back. Tis' why we need to draft and develop a QB now rather than later.

True enough. It's a weird situation, and I have no idea where the KC FO is going to go from here.

[Hammock Parties]

They're both pocket passers? That seems to be their most comparable trait.

Cassel is a terrible pocket passer.

[listopencil]

This is probably not the time and place but it seems like most, if not all, of your name changes have been mod induced. Is that true?

[BigMeatballDave]

This will be the best group of receivers he's worked with.

[Mr. Laz]

we have 5 game stopgap who is a free agent at the end of the year. That's what we have.

[KCrockaholic]

Cassel is a terrible pocket passer.

He is. But they are both "pocket passers"

[BossChief]

Im actually somewhat a fan of Orton, but I hate this situation.

There isnt a doubt in my mind that they will NOT draft a quarterback before the 6th round and that they will go into next year with Cassel, Stanzi and Orton unless someone comes by and offers us a 4th or 3rd for Cassel so Pioli has a plausable out in this situation.

Pioli has too much "invested" in Cassel to "throw it away" after not being able to "prove himself and get this team back to the playoffs" (I got a little sick typing that)...but he will be forced to do something if Orton comes in and is CLEARLY better (which he will)

Orton will be the starter till Stanzi takes the job or a really good quarterback "miraculously" drops to us in the 2013 draft and we take him.

I dont see them letting Orton walk or cutting Cassel and I doubt even more that they would try to sneak Stanzi on any practice squad, thats not gonna work.

Thats the situation we have with Orton, guys. FML

[Hammock Parties]

He is. But they are both "pocket passers"

I still disagree. Cassel is very good at doing things mobile quarterbacks like to do. He can extend a play. Which just prolongs our suffering, but I digress.

[listopencil]

Im actually somewhat a fan of Orton, but I hate this situation.

There isnt a doubt in my mind that they will NOT draft a quarterback before the 6th round and that they will go into next year with Cassel, Stanzi and Orton unless someone comes by and offers us a 4th or 3rd for Cassel so Pioli has a plausable out in this situation.

Pioli has too much "invested" in Cassel to "throw it away" after not being able to "prove himself and get this team back to the playoffs" (I got a little sick typing that)...but he will be forced to do something if Orton comes in and is CLEARLY better (which he will)

Orton will be the starter till Stanzi takes the job or a really good quarterback "miraculously" drops to us in the 2013 draft and we take him.

I dont see them letting Orton walk or cutting Cassel and I doubt even more that they would try to sneak Stanzi on any practice squad, thats not gonna work.

Thats the situation we have with Orton, guys. FML


Orton will beat anyone you have on the roster right now...in Training Camp. He's nails with no pressure.

[Hammock Parties]

Orton will beat anyone you have on the roster right now...in Training Camp. He's nails with no pressure.

I basically agree with this. We all know what Orton is. He's a poor man's Trent Green.

If our defense continues to play well and we fix our RT issue he's probably going to prevent us from drafting a QB too high.

[KCrockaholic]

I still disagree. Cassel is very good at doing things mobile quarterbacks like to do. He can extend a play. Which just prolongs our suffering, but I digress.

So what do you characterize him as? He's not a scrambler. We've seen scramblers. Thigpen is gone.

[dirk digler]

I can't believe you wasted valuable time in your life to write up a long ass observation on Kyle Orton.

[BossChief]

we have 5 game stopgap who is a free agent at the end of the year. That's what we have.
Wanna bet?

[prhom]

I still disagree. Cassel is very good at doing things mobile quarterbacks like to do. He can extend a play. Which just prolongs our suffering, but I digress.

He can extend it, but can't do anything in terms of passing after he does. I remember a stat a few games ago where he was something ridiculous like 4 of 20 on passes attempted while on the run out of the pocket.

[BigMeatballDave]

How much truth was there to the rumor that he wanted to go to Chicago?

[listopencil]

He can extend it, but can't do anything in terms of passing after he does. I remember a stat a few games ago where he was something ridiculous like 4 of 20 on passes attempted while on the run out of the pocket.

So...both guys are shitty on the run.

[BigMeatballDave]

He can extend it, but can't do anything in terms of passing after he does. I remember a stat a few games ago where he was something ridiculous like 4 of 20 on passes attempted while on the run out of the pocket.

I've never seen a QB worse at throwing on the run.

[chiefzilla1501]

Im actually somewhat a fan of Orton, but I hate this situation.

There isnt a doubt in my mind that they will NOT draft a quarterback before the 6th round and that they will go into next year with Cassel, Stanzi and Orton unless someone comes by and offers us a 4th or 3rd for Cassel so Pioli has a plausable out in this situation.

Pioli has too much "invested" in Cassel to "throw it away" after not being able to "prove himself and get this team back to the playoffs" (I got a little sick typing that)...but he will be forced to do something if Orton comes in and is CLEARLY better (which he will)

Orton will be the starter till Stanzi takes the job or a really good quarterback "miraculously" drops to us in the 2013 draft and we take him.

I dont see them letting Orton walk or cutting Cassel and I doubt even more that they would try to sneak Stanzi on any practice squad, thats not gonna work.

Thats the situation we have with Orton, guys. FML

Disagree on Cassel. I think it's the end of the line. I actually think the front office, after 2.5 years, realizes they fucked up. But they realize that with all they've invested in Cassel, they can't take the job away from him unless someone actually takes it from him.

They could have rode out the season with Palko/Stanzi. More than likely, they'd make Cassel look good, because they probably would struggle. But instead, they went for a guy who can more than legitimately beat Cassel.

I think if Orton outplays Cassel, the Chiefs have an excuse. They can walk up to Cassel and say... this guy flat out outplayed you. That's why we're letting you walk.

[BossChief]

Kyle Ortons whole game just screams 9-7/10-6.

This fanbase is gonna eat it up, but we wont win anything with him.

[Hammock Parties]

So what do you characterize him as? He's not a scrambler. We've seen scramblers. Thigpen is gone.

I wouldn't classify him as a pocket passer.

[Hammock Parties]

Kyle Ortons whole game just screams 9-7/10-6.

This fanbase is gonna eat it up, but we wont win anything with him.

With an easy schedule we could go 13-3, IMO.

I really hope he doesn't get entrenched here.

For now I'm happy that he'll probably exorcise Cassel so I'm not gonna whine too much.

[BigMeatballDave]

Does Matt have a large roster bonus due?

[BossChief]

Disagree on Cassel. I think it's the end of the line. I actually think the front office, after 2.5 years, realizes they fucked up. But they realize that with all they've invested in Cassel, they can't take the job away from him unless someone actually takes it from him.

They could have rode out the season with Palko/Stanzi. More than likely, they'd make Cassel look good, because they probably would struggle. But instead, they went for a guy who can more than legitimately beat Cassel.

I think if Orton outplays Cassel, the Chiefs have an excuse. They can walk up to Cassel and say... this guy flat out outplayed you. That's why we're letting you walk.

Not buying it.

They just paid him over 40 million dollars in 3 years and his last year got cut short due to "injury".

I cant imagine a situation where we DONT bring him back at the "cheap part" of his contract as he is only due 5.25 million next year.

Get used to this thought:

Matt Cassel, Kyle Orton and Ricky Stanzi will be our quarterbacks next year unless we are able to trade Matt Cassel.

[prhom]

Im actually somewhat a fan of Orton, but I hate this situation.

There isnt a doubt in my mind that they will NOT draft a quarterback before the 6th round and that they will go into next year with Cassel, Stanzi and Orton unless someone comes by and offers us a 4th or 3rd for Cassel so Pioli has a plausable out in this situation.

Pioli has too much "invested" in Cassel to "throw it away" after not being able to "prove himself and get this team back to the playoffs" (I got a little sick typing that)...but he will be forced to do something if Orton comes in and is CLEARLY better (which he will)

Orton will be the starter till Stanzi takes the job or a really good quarterback "miraculously" drops to us in the 2013 draft and we take him.

I dont see them letting Orton walk or cutting Cassel and I doubt even more that they would try to sneak Stanzi on any practice squad, thats not gonna work.

Thats the situation we have with Orton, guys. FML

I think Orton could be Pioli's way of getting out of the Cassel situation. I admit I don't know how Cassel's contract would work out next year if we only wanted him to be a backup, but I'm guessing that we have to get rid of him or keep him as a starter for the amount of money he'd get for being on the team next year. That makes Orton the ideal guy to bring in as an interim starter who might be cheap enough to have around as a back up later.

This all may be wishful thinking, but surely between Orton, a more experienced Stanzi, and possibly a 1st-round QB someone can dethrone Cassel?!?

[prhom]

Disagree on Cassel. I think it's the end of the line. I actually think the front office, after 2.5 years, realizes they ****ed up. But they realize that with all they've invested in Cassel, they can't take the job away from him unless someone actually takes it from him.

They could have rode out the season with Palko/Stanzi. More than likely, they'd make Cassel look good, because they probably would struggle. But instead, they went for a guy who can more than legitimately beat Cassel.

I think if Orton outplays Cassel, the Chiefs have an excuse. They can walk up to Cassel and say... this guy flat out outplayed you. That's why we're letting you walk.

I agree completely, and if I had seen your post before I started writing mine I wouldn't have posted. It's a way to save face.

[BossChief]

Does Matt have a large roster bonus due?
No, his upcoming salaries are significantly cheaper than his previous ones.

Here they are
5.25
7.5
9
With an easy schedule we could go 13-3, IMO.

I really hope he doesn't get entrenched here.

For now I'm happy that he'll probably exorcise Cassel so I'm not gonna whine too much.

Please, dont bring back the demons of 13-3

[Hammock Parties]

Why would they pay Cassel $5 million to be a backup?

Adios, Matt.

[BossChief]

I think Orton could be Pioli's way of getting out of the Cassel situation. I admit I don't know how Cassel's contract would work out next year if we only wanted him to be a backup, but I'm guessing that we have to get rid of him or keep him as a starter for the amount of money he'd get for being on the team next year. That makes Orton the ideal guy to bring in as an interim starter who might be cheap enough to have around as a back up later.

This all may be wishful thinking, but surely between Orton, a more experienced Stanzi, and possibly a 1st-round QB someone can dethrone Cassel?!?

There is no way we go into camp with Orton (who would have to be re-signed) Cassel, Stanzi AND a first round pick.

Not a chance.

If Cassel isnt traded before or during the draft, he is gonna be here all year.

[orange]

There is no way we go into camp with Orton (who would have to be re-signed) Cassel, Stanzi AND a first round pick.

Not a chance.

If Cassel isnt traded before or during the draft, he is gonna be here all year.

There is one big reason why they don't let Cassel go before he's been on the field - injury settlement.

And for the same reason, he has no current value as a trade.

[BigMeatballDave]

There is one big reason why they don't let Cassel go before he's been on the field - injury settlement.

And for the same reason, he has no current value as a trade.

Whatever. Just pay the turd.

[orange]

Whatever. Just pay the turd.

You're awfully free with Hunt's money. I think all Chiefs fans will agree that Hunt isn't.

I fully expect to see Cassel on the Chiefs' roster for TC. And Orton, too, by the way.

[Frankie]

What do the Chiefs have in Kyle Orton?

Another excuse not to

1- play Stanzi this season

2- draft a stud QB next season

[BigMeatballDave]

You're awfully free with Hunt's money. I think all Chiefs fans will agree that Hunt isn't.

I fully expect to see Cassel on the Chiefs' roster for TC. And Orton, too, by the way.

I'm okay with Orton.

I wouldn't cry if Matt had his hand mauled by a wood chipper or whatever...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Another excuse to pass on drafting and developing a QB. Placation for the True Fans.

[mdchiefsfan]

I think one thing that you failed to mention in this is who is WRs were. He hasn't had the YAC WRs we currently possess (in an attempt to mask the Cassel debacle). With these WRs, hitting them in stride could make Orton look pretty damn good. There is only one way to tell; play the man. Great post.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think one thing that you failed to mention in this is who is WRs were. He hasn't had the YAC WRs we currently possess (in an attempt to mask the Cassel debacle). With these WRs, hitting them in stride could make Orton look pretty damn good. There is only one way to tell; play the man. Great post.

An interesting point. He had Marshall. But in 2010, his receivers were mostly speed guys who got most of their yards before the reception.

[Thig Lyfe]

Orton is not the future, of course, but if he were our QB last year we would have probably been a 2 seed and won at least one playoff game.

[RealSNR]

I'm okay with Orton.

I wouldn't cry if Matt had his hand mauled by a wood chipper or whatever...
WHY WOULD YOU WISH INJURY UPON A CHIEFS PLAYER YOU ARE CLASSLESS AND DERANGED HOW DARE YOU

[Thig Lyfe]

WHY WOULD YOU WISH INJURY UPON A CHIEFS PLAYER YOU ARE CLASSLESS AND DERANGED HOW DARE YOU

I'D LIKE TO SEND ADAM TEICHER AND HIS WHOLE FAMILY THROUGH THE WOODCHIPPER

[Mk19]

Another excuse to pass on drafting and developing a QB. Placation for the True Fans.

Pretty much the way I feel about it. This road we're going down right now makes me so apathetic towards this organization.

I just CAN'T wait to see Orton and Cassel battle it out in training camp next year so we can sit through another pointless season of dumbassery and mediocrity at QB.

[easymobee]

Another excuse to pass on drafting and developing a QB. Placation for the True Fans.

Like you would've anyway ..... oh wait i forgot about Blundin and Barnes.

[easymobee]

unless we are able to trade Matt Cassel.

For what? Bernie Fine?

[mdchiefsfan]

An interesting point. He had Marshall. But in 2010, his receivers were mostly speed guys who got most of their yards before the reception.

What I think, in all honesty, is it is worth seeing. I am all for drafting a 1st round QB. But what people don't realize is, it would take Orton making this o-line, WRs, .... well, hell, the whole offense work without Cassel, as the QB, for us to move past Cassel.

Then once that is realized (I hope), the FO won't be as scared to draft a QB in the first round (since there is much less risk and still the same reward possible). Time will tell what is going on, but obviously Stanzi isn't it (as it stands), but the position needs an answer.

I don't care if we re-sign Orton next year to compete with the QB we draft, I just want acknowledgment from the FO that the QB position is the most important position on offense. Not too much to ask.

[Pushead2]

Another excuse to pass on drafting and developing a QB. Placation for the True Fans.

this is exactly what we have.....good post Hamas. :thumb:

[the Talking Can]

next could you write a 5000 word post about the merits of Chris Chandler?


Orton is a jag off no one wants...and he'll be our QB for the next two years while fans convince themselves it is better than drafting a 'risky' qb....

pioli is a flaming dumbass

[tredadda]

LMAO

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. They are nothing alike.

Orton has an above average arm and good accuracy. He reads defenses well and gets the ball out. He's also terribly immobile.

Cassel has an average arm and shitty accuracy. Doesn't read defenses well, holds the ball too long. But he's fairly mobile.

They are opposites.

Then why is Orton on team #3? The Bears traded him and picks for Cutler because they felt Cutler was the superior QB. The Broncos benched him after 5 games for Tebow and now he is with us. Sorry, but in spite of your glowing reviews for Orton he is not that good. He is marginally better than Cassel, but just like Cassel he is not a player I would pin my team's future success on.

[Extra Point]

If we just flat out released Cassel, who would take him, and would he just be a number two for someone?

[DeezNutz]

Pretty sure that we have a backup whom we're going to try to dress up as a starter, so at least this will be new and interesting. Not sure how this will turn out.

[bevischief]

Im actually somewhat a fan of Orton, but I hate this situation.

There isnt a doubt in my mind that they will NOT draft a quarterback before the 6th round and that they will go into next year with Cassel, Stanzi and Orton unless someone comes by and offers us a 4th or 3rd for Cassel so Pioli has a plausable out in this situation.

Pioli has too much "invested" in Cassel to "throw it away" after not being able to "prove himself and get this team back to the playoffs" (I got a little sick typing that)...but he will be forced to do something if Orton comes in and is CLEARLY better (which he will)

Orton will be the starter till Stanzi takes the job or a really good quarterback "miraculously" drops to us in the 2013 draft and we take him.

I dont see them letting Orton walk or cutting Cassel and I doubt even more that they would try to sneak Stanzi on any practice squad, thats not gonna work.

Thats the situation we have with Orton, guys. FML

sadly I think you right...

[Extra Point]

Another excuse to pass on drafting and developing a QB. Placation for the True Fans.

Guess I'm a true fan, as I don't believe we have the tools to do so. Zorn is hamstrung by Haley, and won't let Grandpa call the inside slant.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

A Qb who is statistically worse than Matt Cassel./thread

[whoman69]

According to Haley we have a backup for Tyler Palko.

[Thig Lyfe]

Pretty sure that we have a backup whom we're going to try to dress up as a starter, so at least this will be new and interesting. Not sure how this will turn out.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/2/24/I_see_what_you_did_there_super.jpg

[Pasta Little Brioni]

I'm sure he can lead the team to more than 1 TD in the next 45 possessions.

[htismaqe]

According to Haley we have a backup for Tyler Palko.

Yep.

[htismaqe]

A Qb who is statistically worse than Matt Cassel./thread

Because reading box scores is more important than watching the games. /thread

[BoneKrusher]

I'm sure he can lead the team to more than 1 TD in the next 45 possessions.

yep but it's Probably Palkos job to lose. ROFL
and yet there's people who think Pioli and Haley will draft a Franchise QB.

[FringeNC]

Given the different look of the offense, Haley presumably now calling plays, Muir on the sidelines (at least against New England), it seems completely obvious that there is no way both Haley and Cassel come back. It's obvious that Cassel really couldn't run the offense that Haley wanted to run. I have no idea what Pioli is going to do, but it seems as if Cassel is a missing person now. Sure, he's injured, but where is he? If I had to guess, Pioli has already decided Cassel is gone. I have no idea about Haley.

[Chiefnj2]

Given the different look of the offense, Haley presumably now calling plays, Muir on the sidelines (at least against New England), it seems completely obvious that there is no way both Haley and Cassel come back. It's obvious that Cassel really couldn't run the offense that Haley wanted to run. I have no idea what Pioli is going to do, but it seems as if Cassel is a missing person now. Sure, he's injured, but where is he? If I had to guess, Pioli has already decided Cassel is gone. I have no idea about Haley.

What do you mean by "different look of the offense"??? They look just as inept as ever.

[BoneKrusher]

What do you mean by "different look of the offense"??? They look just as inept as ever.

exactly.
we've scored one TD in 45 drives.

[FringeNC]

What do you mean by "different look of the offense"??? They look just as inept as ever.

Well, they can cross the 50 now. But there is no problem getting the plays in, Palko seems to be able to make pre-snap adjustments, QB is not getting sacked constantly. Cassel was lost back there in a way Palko is not.

[orange]

What do the Chiefs have in Kyle Orton?

I don't know, but ...

... What a Friend the Broncos Have in Tebow.


I can't believe I missed that setup until now

[BigMeatballDave]

What do you mean by "different look of the offense"??? They look just as inept as ever.

I'm not sure if you are stupid, or just being obtuse on purpose...

[Chiefnj2]

I'm not sure if you are stupid, or just being obtuse on purpose...

Tell me the big offensive changes. It's certainly not reflected on the scoreboard.

The D certainly played better, and played 4 full quarters for the first time this year.

[FAX]

Tell me the big offensive changes. It's certainly not reflected on the scoreboard.

The D certainly played better, and played 4 full quarters for the first time this year.

Literally.

FAX

[Barret]

Hope this isn't a reposQ

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/r8_buda5vWo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[orange]

Hope this isn't a reposQ


You just know that guy's pissed that he can't go round the Denver bars/restaurants scamming freebies anymore.

[BigMeatballDave]

Tell me the big offensive changes. It's certainly not reflected on the scoreboard.

The D certainly played better, and played 4 full quarters for the first time this year.

Not offensive production. All the pre-snap stuff. Palko knows where everyone is supposed to be. He directs the OL. When have you ever seen Cassel do this?

Also, there were so many issues of getting the play in, but since Matt has been gone, that is no longer a problem.

It's unfortunate Palko throws like a 12 yr old girl.

[Chiefnj2]

Also, there were so many issues of getting the play in, but since Matt has been gone, that is no longer a problem.

It's unfortunate Palko throws like a 12 yr old girl.

Your blaming not getting the calls in on time on Cassel? Cassel somehow delayed the message from the sideline to his helmet.

Maybe the calls are getting in faster because Muir is on the sideline, and isn't calling all of the plays?

[BigMeatballDave]

Your blaming not getting the calls in on time on Cassel? Cassel somehow delayed the message from the sideline to his helmet.

Maybe the calls are getting in faster because Muir is on the sideline, and isn't calling all of the plays?

Awesome. Keep showing your stupidity by making excuses for Cassel.

[Chiefnj2]

Awesome. Keep showing your stupidity by making excuses for Cassel.


and you continue to believe that Cassel altered time.

[RealSNR]

Your blaming not getting the calls in on time on Cassel? Cassel somehow delayed the message from the sideline to his helmet.

Maybe the calls are getting in faster because Muir is on the sideline, and isn't calling all of the plays?They still haven't fixed this problem. You can tell that when Palko wasn't running hurry-up, he was yelling at the sidelines. He did that on several different occasions throughout Sunday night's game.

[Halfcan]

sorry just can't root for orton-I have Never thought he was that great.

[Kerberos]

So what do you characterize him as? He's not a scrambler. We've seen scramblers. Thigpen is gone.

I wouldn't classify him as a pocket passer.

I would say he is a gifted actor.

Piholi gave him $63M because he thought he was a "Franchise QB" and Cassel is still cashing paychecks...

I call that one of the BEST acting jobs in NFL history. :shrug:

Or a really good Con-Job?
:facepalm:

[BoneKrusher]

sorry just can't root for orton-I have Never thought he was that great.

i doubt the Chiefs will even play Orton but if they do i think he can do some damage with these weapons if used properly:

Bowe
Breaston
Baldwin
Dexter McLuster

[Micjones]

I think we have a QB who allows us to open up the passing game.
Orton throws a much better long ball than anyone who's been under center in Kansas City in quite some time.

[vailpass]

I think we have a QB who allows us to open up the passing game.
Orton throws a much better long ball than anyone who's been under center in Kansas City in quite some time.

So do I.
You too probably.

[MahiMike]

I think one thing that you failed to mention in this is who is WRs were. He hasn't had the YAC WRs we currently possess (in an attempt to mask the Cassel debacle). With these WRs, hitting them in stride could make Orton look pretty damn good. There is only one way to tell; play the man. Great post.

Orton was the #7 fantasy QB last year and the #1 WR? Brandon Lloyd. This will be interesting!

[BoneKrusher]

I think we have a QB who allows us to open up the passing game.
Orton throws a much better long ball than anyone who's been under center in Kansas City in quite some time.

Exactly.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Because reading box scores is more important than watching the games. /thread

Oh, I could argue about how Cassel is better..... but frankly, no one on here is objective anyway. Why bother?

The reality is that neither is the answer, so debating which one is better is getting distracted from the reality that the Chiefs need to draft and develop a franchise QB.

At this point, I don't care if Orton is better. I don't think he is. Heck, I don't even think it should be an argument. Frankly, if the tables were turned and Orton had been here the last three years and Cassel was just cut....

then, the consensus on here would be that Cassel is much better than Orton. The reality is that no matter who is cut, this board thinks that we should bring them in, because they are better than what we have.

And, the reality is that isn't true most of the time.

But, again, arguing about which mediocre QB sucks less is a bit of a waste of time.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Orton was the #7 fantasy QB last year and the #1 WR? Brandon Lloyd. This will be interesting!

Yeah, too bad McDaniels isn't coming to coach the offense so it would actually matter.

You do know he played this year, right?

I don't think he is #7 this year.

[chiefzilla1501]

Oh, I could argue about how Cassel is better..... but frankly, no one on here is objective anyway. Why bother?

The reality is that neither is the answer, so debating which one is better is getting distracted from the reality that the Chiefs need to draft and develop a franchise QB.

At this point, I don't care if Orton is better. I don't think he is. Heck, I don't even think it should be an argument. Frankly, if the tables were turned and Orton had been here the last three years and Cassel was just cut....

then, the consensus on here would be that Cassel is much better than Orton. The reality is that no matter who is cut, this board thinks that we should bring them in, because they are better than what we have.

And, the reality is that isn't true most of the time.

But, again, arguing about which mediocre QB sucks less is a bit of a waste of time.

Um... No. Ortons job was to throw for 300 yards and win games with a 50 yard rusher and the worst defense in the NFL. Cassels job was to play behind a solid defense and a top 5 running game.

Orton throws for 300 yards and loses. Cassel throws for 70 yards and wins. I don't know what on earth cassel has done to make you believe he's better. Because a qb whose only job is to not shit your pants while your defense and running game bail you out is not a qb at all

Or ton isn't just better. He's significantly better. He's great as a stopgap but that's it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah, too bad McDaniels isn't coming to coach the offense so it would actually matter.

You do know he played this year, right?

I don't think he is #7 this year.

No offseason. Brand new coach. Brand new system.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

No offseason. Brand new coach. Brand new system.

Of course....

This year and every year that McDaniels didn't coach him apparently.

[chiefzilla1501]

Of course....

This year and every year that McDaniels didn't coach him apparently.

That's pretty fair. 5 games with no offseason working with a new coach.

Don't even throw Chicago in there. They ran a 3-step drop, 1-read system there.

[TRR]

Oh, I could argue about how Cassel is better..... but frankly, no one on here is objective anyway. Why bother?

The reality is that neither is the answer, so debating which one is better is getting distracted from the reality that the Chiefs need to draft and develop a franchise QB.

At this point, I don't care if Orton is better. I don't think he is. Heck, I don't even think it should be an argument. Frankly, if the tables were turned and Orton had been here the last three years and Cassel was just cut....

then, the consensus on here would be that Cassel is much better than Orton. The reality is that no matter who is cut, this board thinks that we should bring them in, because they are better than what we have.

And, the reality is that isn't true most of the time.

But, again, arguing about which mediocre QB sucks less is a bit of a waste of time.

I agree with this post for the most part. We obviously saw Cassel peak last season against an easy schedule. We also know what Orton is, and I believe most would agree that he isn't going to be hoisting a SB trophy anytime soon.

The issue that I have is that most on here feel that drafting a 1st rd QB is the sure-fire answer when nothing could be further from the truth. Yea we know...1st round QBs win Super Bowls save a few....but it is far from a sure thing and will set a franchise back YEARS if Pioli and Co are wrong.

The 1st round QB wishers seem to be the flavor of the year now just like the wish of "all we need to do is get rid of Carl and we'll win a SB."...
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

will set a franchise back YEARS if Pioli and Co are wrong.


No, it won't, and even if it did, so what? There's no end in sight to the also-ran endings this franchise can manufacture, new QB or not.

[Hammock Parties]

The 1st round QB wishers seem to be the flavor of the year now just like the wish of "all we need to do is get rid of Carl and we'll win a SB."...
Posted via Mobile Device

But wishing to get rid of Carl WAS wishing for a 1st round QB, because he never drafted one.

Do you have an alternative?

[O.city]

Can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I'm hard up for a first round qb is that there are potentially three franchise qbs in the first round this year.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

That's pretty fair. 5 games with no offseason working with a new coach.

Don't even throw Chicago in there. They ran a 3-step drop, 1-read system there.

Yeah, don't throw in anything other than the two years that he was the QB for McDaniels.

Heck, if you do that, he looks like a HOF QB. You know what? So does Matt Cassel. If you only look at the year he played for McDaniels, he is amazing.

In the end, it doens't matter which one of these mediocre QB's is better. But, you are overly optimistic about what Orton is.

[Hammock Parties]

No, Cassel was the same idiot who couldn't throw the ball down the field WITH McDaniels. That's what you don't get for some reason.

McDaniels is not a magician. Bradford is shitty in St. Louis this year.

Kyle Orton is not going to turn back into a pumpkin without Josh McDaniels. He won't suddenly lack the ability to throw down the field.

[BigMeatballDave]

Yeah, don't throw in anything other than the two years that he was the QB for McDaniels.

Heck, if you do that, he looks like a HOF QB. You know what? So does Matt Cassel. If you only look at the year he played for McDaniels, he is amazing.

In the end, it doens't matter which one of these mediocre QB's is better. But, you are overly optimistic about what Orton is.

Sensible... LOL

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah, don't throw in anything other than the two years that he was the QB for McDaniels.

Heck, if you do that, he looks like a HOF QB. You know what? So does Matt Cassel. If you only look at the year he played for McDaniels, he is amazing.

In the end, it doens't matter which one of these mediocre QB's is better. But, you are overly optimistic about what Orton is.

JFC

[BigMeatballDave]

HOF and Matt Cassel should not be in the same paragraph LMAO

[Brock]

LMAO God.

[Tombstone RJ]

Okay, we're stuck with him. So apart from the "he sucks" or "he's the second coming of Joe Mantegna... er... Montana" shit, let's talk about what the Chiefs really have. Sorry, I've watched Orton play quite a bit, but I've never paid as close attention as I have the past few days, so the picture is incomplete. Here's what I've pieced together. Again, this is based on limited stuff I've seen or read. I know a lot of this is off. Flame away.

Why didn't Orton win games in Denver?

...And sorry, I don't want to hear it that Orton got cut and lost his job to Tebow because he was a bad QB. That's scapegoating at it's finest. Tebow seems to fit well in Fox's system, but that doesn't mean Orton had opportunity to play his way out of a job. That decision was politically charged. And Orton was scapegoated for bigger problems in Denver. 3 different coaches. 1 lockout-shortened preseason. Very poor running/defensive support.

Broncos fan here! Let me tell you that you are completely wrong in that "Tebow seems to fit well in Fox's system...." First off, Fox has completely changed His system to fit Tebow. Fox's "system" is the traditional pro set with a power running game. That system fit Orton, not vice versa.

Orton was not getting it done, period. He threw bad INTs at the wrong times, he's not clutch at all. He never rises to the game, that is, he gets worse under pressure. Fox handed him the job.

Let me say that again: Fox handed Orton the job.

What did Orton do? 1-4 brosef. Sure, this Broncos team is in a new system with a new HC and new players but Orton performed so well in training camp and in practice that the coaches had no choice but give him the job. However, come game time he stinks, or at the very least he is less than clutch. At worst, he's a complete choke artist.

I think Orton will do ok in kc's system as he and Cassel are alike in many ways. That being said you guys are in "must win" games every single game. If you expect Orton to become Tom Brady and put the team on his shoulders and march the ball down field well, good luck with that because I've never seen that happen, at least not with the Broncos.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Broncos fan here! Let me tell you that you are completely wrong in that "Tebow seems to fit well in Fox's system...." First off, Fox has completely changed His system to fit Tebow. Fox's "system" is the traditional pro set with a power running game. That system fit Orton, not vice versa.

Orton was not getting it done, period. He threw bad INTs at the wrong times, he's not clutch at all. He never rises to the game, that is, he gets worse under pressure. Fox handed him the job.

Let me say that again: Fox handed Orton the job.

What did Orton do? 1-4 brosef. Sure, this Broncos team is in a new system with a new HC and new players but Orton performed so well in training camp and in practice that the coaches had no choice but give him the job. However, come game time he stinks, or at the very least he is less than clutch. At worst, he's a complete choke artist.

I think Orton will do ok in kc's system as he and Cassel are alike in many ways. That being said you guys are in "must win" games every single game. If you expect Orton to become Tom Brady and put the team on his shoulders and march the ball down field well, good luck with that because I've never seen that happen, at least not with the Broncos.

I didn't even read where Tebow 'seems to fit' Fox's system.:doh!:

It is amazing how much rationalization goes on once the Chiefs get a guy. Especially with the homers. The same guys that were supporting Cassel going into this season and would have said that Cassel was clearly a better QB than Orton back in August.

It would be different if Cassel struggled and Orton outplayed him this season.

But, even though Cassel struggled.....Orton was WORSE. Yet, here comes the savior. I mean, he HAS to be better than Cassel, right?

The Denver defense is good, and I am sure it has gotten better as the season has gone on. But, Orton turned the ball over and put the defense in bad situations. The reason that Tebow is winning games comes down to him not making dumb decisions with the ball. He allows the defense to play defesnse and keep them in games.

[MahiMike]

Yeah, too bad McDaniels isn't coming to coach the offense so it would actually matter.

You do know he played this year, right?

I don't think he is #7 this year.

John Fox is a defensive coach. Haley/McDaniels are offensive-minded.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

No, Cassel was the same idiot who couldn't throw the ball down the field WITH McDaniels. That's what you don't get for some reason.

McDaniels is not a magician. Bradford is shitty in St. Louis this year.

Kyle Orton is not going to turn back into a pumpkin without Josh McDaniels. He won't suddenly lack the ability to throw down the field.

You do know that there is more to an offense than throwing the ball 'downfield'. Ryan Leaf had a cannon for an arm.

It takes more than a strong arm to play QB. It takes good decisions. And, believe it or not, despite some of the really dumb mistakes Cassel has made.... he is still better at making decisions than Kyle Orton.

The rationilization on this board is incredible. I honestly cannot believe how unobjective this board is.

Hey, you know what? I hope I am wrong. Because Len Dawson said on an interview that Cassel isn't going anywhere.

I hope that Orton is GREAT. Not because I want him as the long term answer. But, if Dawson is sure that Cassel isn't going anywhere, then maybe Orton can show the Chiefs front office that Cassel is not an acceptable solution.

Do I think that happens? Nope. I think Orton is worse than Cassel, despite how mediocre Cassel is.

I at least understand the optimism behind Stanzi. I mean, we haven't seen Stanzi fail. I guess until we see Orton fail in a Chiefs uniform, we just won't believe that its real.

We will blame his 1-5 record on new coaching staff, new system, etc.

We won't look at how Tebow, with far less skills throwing the ball, has taken this team to an outside chance at winning the division.

Same lack of offseason. Same new coaching staff, new system, etc.

Amazing.

[FAX]

Endeavor to persevere.

I've been thinking about this whole situation. It's true. Drafting someone whom you believe to be a "franchise" quarterback can set an organization back for years if you choose poorly. The same can be said when you pick a guy off the scrap heap or move them up from the depth chart. There are no guarantees.

Some people say; "You have to take the chance." Other people say, "You can't afford to miss because our best players are aging and the window will close." Still other people say, "Much energy is discarded in attempting to know the unknowable."

It's a tough call when you're a GM or a HC since your career is also on the line. So, it only makes sense to hedge your bets and develop or groom a quarterback (regardless of where or how you get him) who can manage your system on the field, so long as they have one other attribute. They have to be effective in the clutch.

I believe you can win with a QB who isn't Tom Brady or Peyton Pencil-Neck or Aaron Rodgers. You can win with the Grossmans and the Jaworskis so long as they can make the crucial plays at the crucial times in the crucial games. In reality, that may only mean 8 or 10 offensive plays per game ... but they are the clutch plays. The pressure plays. The career-defining plays.

If you have that and a coach who can devise well-conceived offensive schemes and a good defense, you can win a hell of a lot of games.

Cassel is not that guy. He is the opposite. He folds under pressure. Orton has the same reputation. We don't need another Brady to win. We need a Trent Green with a defense.

FAX

[Reerun_KC]

Everytime I see this thread What do the Chiefs have in Kyle Orton? All I can think of is

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9RSF7PAcdNY/Swx1duVWECI/AAAAAAAAABE/_zEK7dP6CkY/s1600/cat-crap-big.jpg

I hate this guy worse than I hated DownField BigGame... I hope he gets his neckbeard broke off his face...

[Mr. Laz]

Awesome. Keep showing your stupidity by making excuses for Cassel.

he's not making excuse for Cassel, he telling you that you're a dumb ass and don't know what you are talking about.

The chiefs have made some changes about how they get the plays in to solve the problem. It had nothing to do with the QB like you are trying to suggest.

[FringeNC]

Because Len Dawson said on an interview that Cassel isn't going anywhere.



Nothing matters then. We're screwed.

[BigMeatballDave]

he's not making excuse for Cassel, he telling you that you're a dumb ass and don't know what you are talking about.

The chiefs have made some changes about how they get the plays in to solve the problem. It had nothing to do with the QB like you are trying to suggest.

LOL That's funny. You suggesting someone other than you is a dumbass.

Laz, King of the Dumbasses

[FAX]

So ... some coach in the play calling phone tree had his mic turned off?

ROFL

FAX

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

adamteicherAdam Teicher


Haley from today's presser: "Tyler’s the starter. We’re getting Kyle ready to play. He might have to play."

[BigMeatballDave]

adamteicherAdam Teicher


Haley from today's presser: "Tyler’s the starter. We’re getting Kyle ready to play. He might have to play."

I suppose if Palko goes full retard, which is highly likely, Orton will be ready.

[Frankie]

I suppose if Palko goes full retard, which is highly likely, Orton will be ready.

I feel bad for Stanzi. :(

[Mr. Kotter]

I feel bad for Stanzi. :(

Eh, I think it's smart not to throw the rookie to the wolves. It's not as if Stanzi is Cam Newton or Joe Flacco....and has a likelihood of just stepping in. Hell, I hope he's a poor-man's Aaron Rodgers....can sit on the bench a couple of years, while Orton, Cassel, or the next experiment at QB flails, and when he is ready--will get a fair shot.

That's probably asking too much though, as this is the Chiefs. :banghead: