Other Sports Marlins have made 10-year offer to Pujols [Archive]

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:08 PM

Hold tight, Mo.

The last offer you made was more than fair. If he wants to go to Miami, he's earned that right. We got the best decade of his career, 3 pennants and 2 World Championships for his efforts. He has every right to do what he feels is best for him and his family.

I think he's making a mistake (Miami is a shitty sports town; especially in the summer), but it's his to make.

The Cardinals need to do what they always did during the Jocketty days - offer the amount you think is the right amount and pull the chute if some other team is willing to be stupid. Do not allow the largess of an idiot owner to force you into making a foolish decision.

Thanks for the memories, Albert. Have fun playing #3 to LeBron and Wade down there; I hope you didn't get used to living in a baseball town because the fans will forget about you fellas the moment you don't win 95 games. Miami and Atlanta are the 2 worst sports towns in the country.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 12:11 PM

I'm sure Pujols isn't going to miss Stl.

The only reason to go to Florida, in any sport, is the lifestyle.

Mr. Laz

12-06-2011, 12:12 PM

hahah. The Marlins are awesome. Every 8 years they buy the World Series. Throwing Jack at Reyes and Pujols. Are they planning on keeping Ramirez?
they will be trading them in a couple of years and go back to the youth movement.

It's just the way some small markets have to do it.

build your youth until you think you have the core to make a run ... then buy several more pieces to put you over-the-top. After you win, sell off all the expensive guys and start the rebuilding stuff over again.

Deberg_1990

12-06-2011, 12:12 PM

The Royals countered with a 5 year 15 million dollar deal and offered him the "Keys to the city of Independence"

sedated

12-06-2011, 12:13 PM

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 12:16 PM

they will be trading them in a couple of years and go back to the youth movement.

It's just the way some small markets have to do it.

build your youth until you think you have the core to make a run ... then buy several more pieces to put you over-the-top. After you win, sell off all the expensive guys and start the rebuilding stuff over again.

Mami isn't a small market, they were just hamstrung playing in Dolphins Stadium.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:17 PM

I'm sure Pujols isn't going to miss Stl.

The only reason to go to Florida, in any sport, is the lifestyle.

Does Pujols strike you as the cabanas and Cubans type?

Obviously I could be wrong, but I just don't see AP hitting the night-clubs and closing the bars with LeBron and the boys.

Besides, baseball's a lot different animal than most other sports when it comes to lifestyle decisions.

During the baseball season, you really don't have the energy to go out there and party all the time, not if you value your craft. You spend a hell of a lot of time on the road and when you're home you try to spend some time with your family (presuming you have one. Albert is, by all accounts, a family man). Baseball's a hell of a grind; you play every day and if you don't want to go out there with dead legs, you don't go hitting the club after your 10:30p finish.

During the offseason, you can play in St. Louis and travel to Miami for the winter if need be.

I get it for NBA players; living in Miami for a winter sport when you're going to spend 2/3 of your time in your home city is a hell of a deal. But there's a reason that hasn't extended to baseball players.

If he moves to the Marlins; it's purely for the money. It's his choice to make, but don't make it more than it is.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:18 PM

Mami isn't a small market, they were just hamstrung playing in Dolphins Stadium.

They're hamstrung by playing in a market that doesn't give a shit.

Saul Good

12-06-2011, 12:18 PM

I think anyone would be stupid to go to Miami. They are "trying" baseball out in their new market, and are probably thinking they can dump everyone if they aren't selling out games. That's why the trade clause is the hang-up.

Anyone who signs there better be ready to have very little input on where they are traded after a year or so.

The no trade clause shouldn't matter. Nobodys going to take on that contract unless Miami pays for 80% of it.

Royal Fanatic

12-06-2011, 12:20 PM

I think anyone would be stupid to go to Miami. They are "trying" baseball out in their new market, and are probably thinking they can dump everyone if they aren't selling out games. That's why the trade clause is the hang-up.

Anyone who signs there better be ready to have very little input on where they are traded after a year or so.
Miami isn't exactly a new market. They've been around since 1993 and won two World Series. Changing the name to the Miami Marlins doesn't mean they are trying baseball out in their new market.

evenfall

12-06-2011, 12:21 PM

I'm not sure Pujols cares what people in Kansas City think of Miami as a sports town. $200 mill is $200 mill. (Actually more in Miami since Florida doesn't have a state income tax.)...

I'm not convinced its a bad sports town. The heat have plenty of support now that theory product is upgraded. The dolphins have good support. The Panthers don't but that franchise is run by a bunch of clowns. Miami as a sports town is probably about average. Then you add in money and lifestyle.

I don't follow the Cardinals - is he upset with the team? A player like this usually finds a place where he is king and doesn't leave.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 12:21 PM

Does Pujols strike you as the cabanas and Cubans type?

Obviously I could be wrong, but I just don't see AP hitting the night-clubs and closing the bars with LeBron and the boys.

Besides, baseball's a lot different animal than most other sports when it comes to lifestyle decisions.

During the baseball season, you really don't have the energy to go out there and party all the time, not if you value your craft. You spend a hell of a lot of time on the road and when you're home you try to spend some time with your family (presuming you have one. Albert is, by all accounts, a family man). Baseball's a hell of a grind; you play every day and if you don't want to go out there with dead legs, you don't go hitting the club after your 10:30p finish.

During the offseason, you can play in St. Louis and travel to Miami for the winter if need be.

I get it for NBA players; living in Miami for a winter sport when you're going to spend 2/3 of your time in your home city is a hell of a deal. But there's a reason that hasn't extended to baseball players.

If he moves to the Marlins; it's purely for the money. It's his choice to make, but don't make it more than it is.

There's more to Florida than clubs.

Pasta Little Brioni

12-06-2011, 12:21 PM

He jus wanna get a wing

oldandslow

12-06-2011, 12:22 PM

REF - 23,000,000 per year

What does that come too, about 46,000 per at bat based on 500 AB's

Good grief...He makes more in a couple of minutes swinging a baseball bat than a teacher makes in a year.

evenfall

12-06-2011, 12:23 PM

I think anyone would be stupid to go to Miami. They are "trying" baseball out in their new market, and are probably thinking they can dump everyone if they aren't selling out games. That's why the trade clause is the hang-up.

Anyone who signs there better be ready to have very little input on where they are traded after a year or so.

Yeeeeah... Something tells me that Albert effing Pujols will be able to negotiate a no trade clause for himself... Just a hunch

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 12:24 PM

Good grief...He makes more in a couple of minutes swinging a baseball bat than a teacher makes in a year.

And we aren't sitting here discussing every move a teacher makes.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 12:27 PM

Going from playing in front of one of the most passionate, knowledgeable baseball fan bases in the world to playing for the Miami Marlins? Ugh.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:29 PM

There's more to Florida than clubs.

So again - why are the Marlins having to overpay like the Royals would to attract FA talent outside of the NBA?

After nearly 2 decades of existence, I have yet to see any indications that there are 'lifestyle' considerations that are driving forces to FA defections to Miami.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 12:31 PM

So again - why are the Marlins having to overpay like the Royals would to attract FA talent outside of the NBA?

After nearly 2 decades of existence, I have yet to see any indications that there are 'lifestyle' considerations that are driving forces to FA defections to Miami.

Maybe because they aren't considered a contender and have never kept a bank roll to be consistently in the hunt?

There's only a select few that have money as their #1 priority.

Most have winning as their #1 priority, but if the money gets so ridiculous that you can't pass it up... you take it.

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 12:32 PM

So again - why are the Marlins having to overpay like the Royals would to attract FA talent outside of the NBA?

After nearly 2 decades of existence, I have yet to see any indications that there are 'lifestyle' considerations that are driving forces to FA defections to Miami.

They did pretty good their first ten years in the league and one time they were on alot of free agent lists. Being strung out with a piss poor lease and playing in Dolphins Stadium hurt them big time.

Stewie

12-06-2011, 12:32 PM

Are they going to demand proof of age before he signs that 10-year deal?

MIAdragon

12-06-2011, 12:36 PM

Yep Ramirez is moving to 3rd base.

or to the OF.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:36 PM

Maybe because they aren't considered a contender?

There's only a select few that have money as their #1 priority.

Most have winning as their #1 priority, but if the money gets so ridiculous that you can't pass it up... you take it.

There's only a select few that say money is their #1 priority.

Then the FA season starts and damn near everyone takes the highest offer, especially in baseball.

C'mon - you don't really buy the agent-speak do you? Mike Hampton went to the Rockies because of the school districts? Neil O'Donnel left the Steelers for the Jets because he wanted to win a championship? Albert Pujols left a World Series team that was getting it's CY caliber ace starter back in 2012 to go to a Marlins team that finished 30 games out because he wanted to win?

Give me a break - it's about the money. I don't begrudge them for it, never have. But I also don't care to hear them lie about it either.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:40 PM

They did pretty good their first ten years in the league and one time they were on alot of free agent lists. Being strung out with a piss poor lease and playing in Dolphins Stadium hurt them big time.

They did well for those 10 years because in one of them they overpaid like crazy for guys like Kevin Brown and Gary Sheffield. After 2 seasons of being unable to sustain their payroll, they dumped them off and got some damn nice arms in return.

Those arms then fueled their 2nd run of sustained success over that 10-year period.

They're a slash/burn franchise. They'll make a massive FA splash, fan interest will wane after a year or two then they'll operate with a skeleton crew for a long time thereafter. They aren't going out there and getting underpaid marquis FAs knocking down their doors to play there.

Look at the history of FA movement in MLB. There are really only 2 kinds of contracts that make up 95% of all signings - 1) Hometown discount contracts and 2) Best $$ available. Now sometimes a player will take highest AAV instead of highest overall $$ (like Cliff Lee last season), but it still came down to money in some capacity.

sedated

12-06-2011, 12:43 PM

Yeeeeah... Something tells me that Albert effing Pujols will be able to negotiate a no trade clause for himself... Just a hunch

he may get one, but what about all the other guys they are signing? Does he want to be left standing in the ashes after the rest of the team is dealt away?

vailpass

12-06-2011, 12:45 PM

he may get one, but what about all the other guys they are signing? Does he want to be left standing in the ashes after the rest of the team is dealt away?

You mean the ashes from the $100 bills he uses to light his cigars as he laughs his way into retirement?

BWillie

12-06-2011, 12:46 PM

evenfall

12-06-2011, 12:48 PM

You mean the ashes from the $100 bills he uses to light his cigars as he laughs his way into retirement?

Exactly, when he starts feeling down he can go for a swim in his money bin.

Doesn't sound like Albert has many friends in STL as it is or they'd have some sort of hope to retain him.

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 12:48 PM

Do you want to sit outside in 95 degree humid heat? I don't. That has to be why their attendance is so bad.

That is a big thing as well. That is why they are building the rectractable dome stadium.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 12:52 PM

Exactly, when he starts feeling down he can go for a swim in his money bin.

Doesn't sound like Albert has many friends in STL as it is or they'd have some sort of hope to retain him.

Cardinals fans all want to retain him, but few of them value Albert Pujols over the long-term success of the St. Louis Cardinals.

If Albert needs a 10 year deal for $230 million to fee respected; more power to him. That will cripple the Cardinals and they shouldn't offer it.

The Cardinals existed before him, they'll exist after him. I would prefer that he become my generation's Musial, but he doesn't appear interested in doing so. As such, I'll go back to hoping for success from the team I rooted for long before Albert Pujols donned the Birds on the Bat.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 12:54 PM

Cardinals fans all want to retain him, but few of them value Albert Pujols over the long-term success of the St. Louis Cardinals.

If Albert needs a 10 year deal for $230 million to fee respected; more power to him. That will cripple the Cardinals and they shouldn't offer it.

The Cardinals existed before him, they'll exist after him. I would prefer that he become my generation's Musial, but he doesn't appear interested in doing so. As such, I'll go back to hoping for success from the team I rooted for long before Albert Pujols donned the Birds on the Bat.

You sound exactly like my dad on this issue. Respect for AP but doesn't think the Cards should love him any more than he loves them.
Next man up.

seclark

12-06-2011, 12:54 PM

Cardinals fans all want to retain him, but few of them value Albert Pujols over the long-term success of the St. Louis Cardinals.

If Albert needs a 10 year deal for $230 million to fee respected; more power to him. That will cripple the Cardinals and they shouldn't offer it.

The Cardinals existed before him, they'll exist after him. I would prefer that he become my generation's Musial, but he doesn't appear interested in doing so. As such, I'll go back to hoping for success from the team I rooted for long before Albert Pujols donned the Birds on the Bat.

2nd
not pissed at either side...it is what it is.
sec

Deberg_1990

12-06-2011, 12:55 PM

Good grief...He makes more in a couple of minutes swinging a baseball bat than a teacher makes in a year.

Its because he is gifted with a skill very few people in the world posses and hes better at that skill than those few people. By comparison, almost anyone can teach. Dont flame......

vailpass

12-06-2011, 12:57 PM

Its because he is gifted with a skill very few people in the world posses and hes better at that skill than those few people. By comparison, almost anyone can teach. Dont flame......

Many people can say that. The difference is that his particular niche skill happens to be one that is extremely marketable.
Your statement that anyone can teach is ignorant at best and maliciously untrue at worst.

Deberg_1990

12-06-2011, 12:58 PM

.
Your statement that anyone can teach is ignorant at best and maliciously untrue at worst.

Anyone can teach....doesnt mean they are good at it. : )

vailpass

12-06-2011, 12:59 PM

Anyone can teach....doesnt mean they are good at it. : )

Oh, yes. My bad. Could have used a good teacher to help me with my reading comprehension there.

HemiEd

12-06-2011, 01:02 PM

The Royals countered with a 5 year 15 million dollar deal and offered him the "Keys to the city of Independence"

You forgot the free "Sams Club" membership for life.

Bump

12-06-2011, 01:15 PM

Good Christ. How can the Marlins be spending this much on Reyes and Pujols while currently under an SEC investigation?

um, cause baseball is a monopolized "sport"

Demonpenz

12-06-2011, 01:16 PM

his final years are going to be a Albertross

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-06-2011, 01:32 PM

jonmorosiJon Morosi

I'm no body language expert, but #Marlins looked rather smiley as Albert Pujols talks approach critical point.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 01:35 PM

Would anyone really be at all surprised if he wasn't in Stl?

Chiefs Pantalones

12-06-2011, 01:42 PM

He should come to KC :) Why wouldn't he stay in STL? Consistent winner, great franchise, etc.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 01:46 PM

Goold says that Pujols is pissed off at the Cardinals front office because he doesn't feel they negotiated in good faith (didn't move off their previous offer by much).

I gotta be honest - that's pretty damn petty if true. I'd hate to see him shit on the fans (because that's who will feel it the most) because he's made at the front office. I don't think he's really thinking that decision through very well.

At this point I believe he's gone and we'll know it by COB today. That said, the Cardinals will survive without him.

seclark

12-06-2011, 01:48 PM

Would anyone really be at all surprised if he wasn't in Stl?

i'd be mildly surprised, but i've already decided that it's foolish to throw all those millions on one player at the expense of the teams future.

ap, imo is one of the greatest players i've ever gotten to watch, but i'd rather watch the whole team compete and win more than i want to watch one player stay w/my favorite team while it loses.

if he wants to go...bye. thanks for the memories ap. and thanks mo and bd for having the sense to let him walk.
sec

veist

12-06-2011, 01:58 PM

And it's over 200mil.

By simple virtue of inductive logic it has to be over $200m if its an offer that is considered something he might sign. He's not going to sign for less than a $20M AAV when he had an offer of supposedly around $22M AAV on the table for over a year.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 02:00 PM

Has Pujols started to decline yet? If not, how many more seasons before he is no longer the Pujos of old?

jd1020

12-06-2011, 02:02 PM

Has Pujols started to decline yet? If not, how many more seasons before he is no longer the Pujos of old?

I'd say he's got 4 years of prime AP level success left and then a steady decline after that.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 02:04 PM

I'd say he's got 4 years of prime AP level success left and then a steady decline after that.

Seems like the Marlins know they need sometone big to launch their new stadium, to sell the box seats and get a season ticket holder base. And they are willing to overpay for him since it is an investment.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 02:05 PM

Has Pujols started to decline yet? If not, how many more seasons before he is no longer the Pujos of old?

This was his 4th consecutive season with a declining OPS.

Now, 'decline' is a relative term; he was still spectacular through 2010. But in 2011 he was merely very very good. It was the worst season of his career and by a relatively decent margin. I'm not saying he was shit, but he's no longer at the peak of Everest.

Pujols is already declining. And the Pujols of old may never surface again (if it does, it will be similar to Berkman's last hurrah this year or Musial's 57 season; raw pride at work for a year).

Unfortunately all signs are that Mozeliak is simply going to take that money and throw it at even older, shittier players than Pujols (Jimmy Rollins and Mark Buehrle). So the Cardinals are going to leap out of the way of one bullet, right into the path of another.

Good going, fellas.

teedubya

12-06-2011, 02:11 PM

The Royals countered with a 5 year 15 million dollar deal and offered him the "Keys to the city of Independence"

And 2 meth labs. Don't forget that. It sure sweetens the pot, IMO.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 02:14 PM

This was his 4th consecutive season with a declining OPS.

Now, 'decline' is a relative term; he was still spectacular through 2010. But in 2011 he was merely very very good. It was the worst season of his career and by a relatively decent margin. I'm not saying he was shit, but he's no longer at the peak of Everest.

Pujols is already declining. And the Pujols of old may never surface again (if it does, it will be similar to Berkman's last hurrah this year or Musial's 57 season; raw pride at work for a year).

Unfortunately all signs are that Mozeliak is simply going to take that money and throw it at even older, shittier players than Pujols (Jimmy Rollins and Mark Buehrle). So the Cardinals are going to leap out of the way of one bullet, right into the path of another.

Good going, fellas.

Wow. Marlins are going all-in for the now.

whoman69

12-06-2011, 02:26 PM

Looks like Stan Musial gets to keep the Cardinals home run record. I would hardly say the Cardinals acted in bad faith considering were a smaller market that is what they could afford to give. Just because he kept saying that isn't enough doesn't mean they can up that offer. With Albert the Cardinals become the favorite to win the World Series again considering Wainwright comes back. I wish he'd make up his mind. If Albert signs elsewhere the Cardinals should look to add another starter and an OF with Berkman going to first.

veist

12-06-2011, 02:27 PM

Kind of related but has anyone seen the dimensions of the new Marlins park? Here they are overlaid on Petco. http://cdn2.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/229448/scaled_php.jpg

whoman69

12-06-2011, 02:27 PM

With new stadium Marlins are willing to go from $80 million payroll to $120 which is how they can make these offers. Let's see how that works out in Miami. It may not be sustainable even with a new stadium.

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-06-2011, 02:28 PM

vailpass

12-06-2011, 02:32 PM

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 02:34 PM

Jon_HeymanJon Heyman

Pujols acquaintance guesses -- just a guess -- marlins need to be $40M over to beat #stlcards. That's $240M.

Jon_HeymanJon Heyman
Pujols has home, restaurants, charity in st. louis. Hard to see him leaving for extra $20M. 1 agent guesses $250M gives miami hope.

Jon Heyman is nothing but a mouthpiece for Scott Boras and whatever other agent wants to feed him information.

He has also said that the Marlins have raised their offer to 13 years, which is almost certainly 100% bullshit.

In order to maintain any degree of dignity or credibility, Heyman should probably just say that someone hacked his account. He's leaving SI for CBS soon anyway, so there's some believability to it.

If it's Heyman, just ignore it.

(EDIT: It appears heyman's old SI account has been hacked...so nevermind; Heyman's still full of shit, though)

Skyy God

12-06-2011, 02:39 PM

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Pujols' agent is a raging d**kbag. I have no doubt he's advising his client to take the highest offer.

vailpass

12-06-2011, 02:44 PM

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Pujols' agent is a raging d**kbag. I have no doubt he's advising his client to take the highest offer.

*gasp*

veist

12-06-2011, 02:48 PM

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Pujols' agent is a raging d**kbag. I have no doubt he's advising his client to take the highest offer.

Even if Lozano wasn't a raging dickbag he'd be telling him that, he's started his own agency and is in direct competition with Boras/Fielder this offseason. Now if Albert is letting his raging dickbag of an agent make his decisions for him then, that's his own damn problem.

kcpasco

12-06-2011, 03:04 PM

Hmm, the Marlins don't want to add a NTC. You have to be a genius to figure that one out.

Mi_chief_fan

12-06-2011, 03:19 PM

I'd like to ask Marlins fans (both of them) the same thing I asked my Cub fan friends: who's your pitching rotation? After Johnson (who was injured most of last year), you've got a whole lot of ??????, not to mention Reyes is only good for 2/3 of a season, and Heath Bell is also declining.

I don't know, I still haven't lost hope that he regains his sanity and realizes STL, as a career choice, is still the better option.

But who knows; maybe they'll trade Sanchez or Morrison to STL, i'd take LoMo as my new 1b if I had to.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 03:25 PM

kcpasco

12-06-2011, 03:25 PM

So is Albert taking his talents to South Beach?

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-06-2011, 03:30 PM

Buster_ESPNBuster Olney

Cardinals are making it known to other teams that Lohse is available. To clear room for Buehrle? To clear room for Pujols? We'll see.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 03:33 PM

Buster_ESPNBuster Olney

Cardinals are making it known to other teams that Lohse is available. To clear room for Buehrle? To clear room for Pujols? We'll see.

Not sure what they plan on getting for him. He doesn't seem like someone that would net much in the off season given his salary.

And has he even agreed to accept a trade?

O.city

12-06-2011, 03:34 PM

Same could be asked about the Cardinals, after Wainwright/Carpenter.

Are you serious.

Garcia is a solid 3.

They have the top two ranked pitching prospects in the minor leagues.

Mi_chief_fan

12-06-2011, 03:35 PM

Same could be asked about the Cardinals, after Wainwright/Carpenter.

Garcia, Lohse & Westbrook better than Vosted, Nolasco & whomever else they plug in, plus Lynn & Miller close to bigs.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 03:35 PM

Are you serious.

Garcia is a solid 3.

They have the top two ranked pitching prospects in the minor leagues.

I forgot minor league prospects started in the ML.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 03:42 PM

Are you serious.

Garcia is a solid 3.

They have the top two ranked pitching prospects in the minor leagues.

Annibel Sanchez is a nice young pitcher. Ricky Nolasco is a high-octane version of Kyle Lohse.

The problem with the Marlins rotation is that Johnson is never healthy. The Marlins rotation, when Johnson could pitch, was better than the one that the Cardinals just won a World Series with last year.

Their bullpen sucks and their 'star' is a surly prima-donna, but they have some pieces on that team that could do some damage. Logan Morrison and Mike Stanton are two very good OFers. If Reyes is healthy and Hanley isn't a tool, the Marlins offense would be the best in the NL.

Saul Good

12-06-2011, 03:43 PM

um, cause baseball is a monopolized "sport"

Admit it. Even you realize that this was a stupid post.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 03:43 PM

Garcia, Lohse & Westbrook better than Vosted, Nolasco & whomever else they plug in, plus Lynn & Miller close to bigs.

Garcia, Lohse and Westbrook is not as good as the Vazquez, Sanchez, Nolasco, Volstead group they ran out there last season.

Even without Vazquez, Garcia, Lohse and Westbrook is pretty much identical to Sanchez, Nolasco and Volstead, with the latter 3 having a little more upside.

O.city

12-06-2011, 03:48 PM

Annibel Sanchez is a nice young pitcher. Ricky Nolasco is a high-octane version of Kyle Lohse.

The problem with the Marlins rotation is that Johnson is never healthy. The Marlins rotation, when Johnson could pitch, was better than the one that the Cardinals just won a World Series with last year.

Their bullpen sucks and their 'star' is a surly prima-donna, but they have some pieces on that team that could do some damage. Logan Morrison and Mike Stanton are two very good OFers. If Reyes is healthy and Hanley isn't a tool, the Marlins offense would be the best in the NL.

So you think if both rotations are healthy, the Marlins would be better than the Cards with Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Jackson,Lohse?

I know Jackson isn't gonna be here next year but for shits and giggles.

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-06-2011, 03:49 PM

Ken_RosenthalKen Rosenthal

Source: #STLCards willing to trade Lohse or Westbrook. Confirms report by @Buster_ESPN. #MLB

Carlota69

12-06-2011, 03:55 PM

Ken_RosenthalKen Rosenthal

Source: #STLCards willing to trade Lohse or Westbrook. Confirms report by @Buster_ESPN. #MLB

Making room...

jd1020

12-06-2011, 03:57 PM

I dont think anyone is going to be knocking on Lohse's door. 12mil for a #3-4?

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 03:57 PM

Ken_RosenthalKen Rosenthal

Source: #STLCards willing to trade Lohse or Westbrook. Confirms report by @Buster_ESPN. #MLB

Of course they would, they both suck.

Skyy God

12-06-2011, 04:02 PM

Even if Lozano wasn't a raging dickbag he'd be telling him that, he's started his own agency and is in direct competition with Boras/Fielder this offseason. Now if Albert is letting his raging dickbag of an agent make his decisions for him then, that's his own damn problem.

Lozano is apparently cash strapped. I don't know how agents work, but if it's anything like similarly situated attorneys, they'll encourage their client to take the money as quickly as possible.

DJ's left nut

12-06-2011, 04:04 PM

So you think if both rotations are healthy, the Marlins would be better than the Cards with Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Jackson,Lohse?

I know Jackson isn't gonna be here next year but for shits and giggles.

That's a pretty bizarre hypothetical given that Wainwright and Jackson never pitched together.

Further, the 2011 Cardinals got precisely zero innings from Adam Wainwright, so he's not terribly relevant to that discussion either.

In 2012, the Cardinals rotation of Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse and Westbrook will be better than the Marlins rotation of Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco, Volstead and #5, but lets not act like it's a walk-away.

We don't know what WW will come back as next season anymore than we know about Johnson. When they're both healthy, they're comparable. Carpenter, for as fantastic as he was from September on, was mediocre prior to that. He's probably going to be the oldest SP in the national league next season and he's thrown a TON of innings over the last 2; I expect a significant regression from him. If Sanchez can stay as effective as he was in the 1st half, Sanchez could have a better year. Nolasco is a maddening headcase, but he's also capable of striking out 16 batters in a game. Let's not act like Garcia's the most consistent or unflappable guy in the majors himself; Nolasco could easily have a better year. Lohse is what he is; a pretty good pitcher with a weak stomach; he's a suitable #3 but you want him no higher.. He's better than Volstead and that's pretty much the only clear 'victory'. Westbrook is dogshit. Complete and utter dogshit. I hate him, I hate his family, I hate his pets. At least the current Marlins #5 (Hand) has some upside if he would stop walking guys.

Yeah, the Cardinals probably have a better rotation, but it's not like we're lapping the field here.

Titty Meat

12-06-2011, 04:15 PM

Nobody cares.

Frazod

12-06-2011, 04:17 PM

Nobody cares.

A lot more people care about the best team in the area in any sport by a wide margin over those who care about the cornhumpers.

Mi_chief_fan

12-06-2011, 05:52 PM

I forgot minor league prospects started in the ML.

Didn't catch Lynn in the postseason, eh?

Rams Fan

12-06-2011, 06:03 PM

That's a pretty bizarre hypothetical given that Wainwright and Jackson never pitched together.

Further, the 2011 Cardinals got precisely zero innings from Adam Wainwright, so he's not terribly relevant to that discussion either.

In 2012, the Cardinals rotation of Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse and Westbrook will be better than the Marlins rotation of Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco, Volstead and #5, but lets not act like it's a walk-away.

We don't know what WW will come back as next season anymore than we know about Johnson. When they're both healthy, they're comparable. Carpenter, for as fantastic as he was from September on, was mediocre prior to that. He's probably going to be the oldest SP in the national league next season and he's thrown a TON of innings over the last 2; I expect a significant regression from him. If Sanchez can stay as effective as he was in the 1st half, Sanchez could have a better year. Nolasco is a maddening headcase, but he's also capable of striking out 16 batters in a game. Let's not act like Garcia's the most consistent or unflappable guy in the majors himself; Nolasco could easily have a better year. Lohse is what he is; a pretty good pitcher with a weak stomach; he's a suitable #3 but you want him no higher.. He's better than Volstead and that's pretty much the only clear 'victory'. Westbrook is dogshit. Complete and utter dogshit. I hate him, I hate his family, I hate his pets. At least the current Marlins #5 (Hand) has some upside if he would stop walking guys.

Yeah, the Cardinals probably have a better rotation, but it's not like we're lapping the field here.

There were no significant differences from Carp's stat line aside from his ERA compared to 2010. He was a great pitcher from June on.

Reaper16

12-06-2011, 07:01 PM

A lot more people care about the best team in the area in any sport by a wide margin over those who care about the cornhumpers.
A bit generous with "area," aren't we?

Frazod

12-06-2011, 07:05 PM

A bit generous with "area," aren't we?

I don't hear you complaining when the area includes places like Norman and Iowa City.

My area is Missouri. Don't really give a shit about anything else, or people too wrapped up in their own bitterness to recognize that.

Caseyguyrr

12-06-2011, 07:09 PM

Good Christ. How can the Marlins be spending this much on Reyes and Pujols while currently under an SEC investigation?

they got new seats to fill!!!

Reaper16

12-06-2011, 07:15 PM

I don't hear you complaining when the area includes places like Norman and Iowa City.

My area is Missouri. Don't really give a shit about anything else, or people too wrapped up in their own bitterness to recognize that.
Area = city/media market

Region = conference footprint/U.S. census groupings/loose popular groupings, i.e. "Midwest"/etc.

BigRedChief

12-06-2011, 07:17 PM

Frazod

12-06-2011, 07:21 PM

Area = city/media market

Region = conference footprint/U.S. census groupings/loose popular groupings, i.e. "Midwest"/etc.

Whatever. You have your area, and I have mine. Glad they're not the same. Winning the occasional championship certainly feels better than, well, whatever it is that you do.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 07:43 PM

If he leaves for the Marlins, then he was FOS in all his previous statements and it was all about the money.

We got him for 11 of his best years. He has maybe 2 more of those years left but wants to be paid for 10 more years like that.

It makes sense for the Cards to do that but not anyone else.

I don't even think it makes sense for the Cards to do that and apparently they don't either. So much for the home town discount. Pujols is just another me first athelete who over values himself and puts himself above the team or winning. Not the first, certainly won't be the last.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 07:45 PM

I don't even think it makes sense for the Cards to do that and apparently they don't either. So much for the home town discount. Pujols is just another me first athelete who over values himself and puts himself above the team or winning. Not the first, certainly won't be the last.

You guys act as if Miami hasn't added anything to compete...

O.city

12-06-2011, 07:45 PM

The guy has a chance to stay in STL and get to legend status especially in the town of STL.

IMO Staying in one of the most historical baseball cities and becomes its icon>going to Miami for 30 million more dollars.

But I guess i'm a poor college kid who doesn't understand 30 million dollars means.

O.city

12-06-2011, 07:47 PM

You guys act as if Miami hasn't added anything to compete...

THey have.

However the guy has always said that he wanted talent added aroudn him in STL and just wanted to win. They did both.

I get the hurt from Cards fans. I also get he wants the most money he can make.

Al Bundy

12-06-2011, 07:48 PM

I don't hear you complaining when the area includes places like Norman and Iowa City.

My area is Missouri. Don't really give a shit about anything else, or people too wrapped up in their own bitterness to recognize that.

I hope by this you don't mean that the Cardinals are "Missouri's team"?

Valiant

12-06-2011, 07:49 PM

The Royals countered with a 5 year 15 million dollar deal and offered him the "Keys to the city of Independence"

God, that area is two completely different worlds from the 90's to now.. My old neighborhood of 3bedroom2bath's are all hud homes now.. Driving through on thanksgiving what do I see?? Little wanna be gangbangers with their asses hanging out... Shit, in the 90s it was kids outside playing sports..

Well East Independence (fort osage area) was.. West has always been garbage..

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-06-2011, 07:54 PM

BNightengaleBob Nightengale

#STLCARDS Pujols now has three teams that are offering 10-year contracts in excess of $200 million: STL, MIAMI, AND unidentified team

jd1020

12-06-2011, 07:56 PM

BNightengaleBob Nightengale

#STLCARDS Pujols now has three teams that are offering 10-year contracts in excess of $200 million: STL, MIAMI, AND unidentified team

Rangers.

Better not be my Cubbies. **** that game.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 07:57 PM

You guys act as if Miami hasn't added anything to compete...

I didn't say that at all. They have for now yes. It's never been in their nature to stay competitive though for long. I'm talking about a guy in his low 30's (as far as we know) demanding that kind of money for 10 more years. I just find it ridiculous on both sides part. It's the business of sports these days though.

Molitoth

12-06-2011, 07:57 PM

That is so much money.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:00 PM

I didn't say that at all. They have for now yes. It's never been in their nature to stay competitive though for long. I'm talking about a guy in his low 30's (as far as we know) demanding that kind of money for 10 more years. I just find it ridiculous on both sides part. It's the business of sports these days though.

We'll have to wait and see what kind of fan base their new stadium and roster brings.

They couldn't sustain a team because no one goes to their games. Same shit with Tampa Bay. Tampa just has a really, really, really good scouting/development thing going on.

Ebolapox

12-06-2011, 08:01 PM

st. louis fans sounding a bit bitter here, fwiw.

Al Bundy

12-06-2011, 08:02 PM

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:02 PM

BNightengaleBob Nightengale

#STLCARDS Pujols now has three teams that are offering 10-year contracts in excess of $200 million: STL, MIAMI, AND unidentified team

Surely he re-signs with StL again if this is the case... for all the reasons mentioned before.

Reaper16

12-06-2011, 08:04 PM

st. louis fans sounding a bit bitter here, fwiw.
Can you blame them? I can't.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:05 PM

Surely he re-signs with StL again if this is the case... for all the reasons mentioned before.

I haven't heard anything about Stl upping their 9/198 offer.

Epic Fail 007

12-06-2011, 08:05 PM

The Royals countered with a 5 year 15 million dollar deal and offered him the "Keys to the city of Independence"

lol,oh boy

tk13

12-06-2011, 08:07 PM

All tweets around the board indicate the Marlins want to get this done tonight if he's serious... they don't want to be used to jack up the price.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:08 PM

10 years is 5 years too long of a deal.

Exactly. If he really ends up being dominant still after another big 5 year deal then sign another deal after that and say "I told ya so." Don't handcuff a team you want to win with though with 10 years for the kind of money he wants. He has to understand that isn't good business for any team... which is why I find him to be just another me first guy.

Yes I understand you want to get all you can... and he will... it would just be nice to see someone use some logic once in a sports contract negotiation. OK I admit that last sentence is funny.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:09 PM

Exactly. If he really ends up being dominant still after another big 5 year deal then sign another deal after that and say "I told ya so." Don't handcuff a team you want to win with though with 10 years for the kind of money he wants. He has to understand that isn't good business for any team... which is why I find him to be just another me first guy.

Yes I understand you want to get all you can... and he will... it would just be nice to see someone use some logic once in a sports contract negotiation. OK I admit that last sentence is funny.

Front load the contract.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:09 PM

I haven't heard anything about Stl upping their 9/198 offer.

Just going off the Nightengale tweet in post 104

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:10 PM

All tweets around the board indicate the Marlins want to get this done tonight if he's serious... they don't want to be used to jack up the price.

Well.... yeah....... good thing the price isn't already jacked up by them heh.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:11 PM

Front load the contract.

If he'll do that, yes.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 08:12 PM

O.city

12-06-2011, 08:14 PM

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:16 PM

Can you blame them? I can't.

I believe I'd be bitter too after what they've been led to believe from him and the fact that not only is there no such thing as a home town discount in a city that loves him, who just won a 2nd World Series with him... but now he appears to be sitting with his feet up on the owners desk in Miami smoking thousand dollar bills and saying keep throwing the money at me boys I'm not feeling loved enough just yet.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 08:20 PM

I'm a Cardinal fan so maybe I'm a little sore on the subject, but in my eyes this makes him worse than Lebron.

Lebron left because he wanted to win a championship. Or basically have one given to him.

Albert has won 2 WS as a Cardinal. This is all about money. Can't blame the guy I guess, I just like guys of his stature to start and finish with one team.

No, totally, totally different situations.

I like the Cardinals and hope Pujols stays. But how can you blame him for wanting more money at this stage in his career? He's earned that right. Lebron, on the other hand, promised Cleveland a championship and then chicken-shitted out so he can buy a championship. And unless Pujols makes some kind of a chicken shit announcement on national TV, he'll do it with more character than Lebron did too.

I could see why a Cards fan would be mad. But it's hard to mad at a guy who has done so much for the team and the city.

Al Bundy

12-06-2011, 08:21 PM

One thing people have to understand is this is a Jim Thome situation... MLB union won't allow hometown discounts... and FWIW the Cardinals have already had one hell of a hometown discount from him.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:22 PM

seclark

12-06-2011, 08:24 PM

I could see why a Cards fan would be mad. But it's hard to mad at a guy who has done so much for the team and the city.

yep...he's a great player and i believe he's a great person. but once he signs w/another team, he'll never be the greatest cardinal. i hoped to see him try to be that, but oh well.
sec

Marcellus

12-06-2011, 08:25 PM

10 years? No thanks if I am the Cards. Up the annual money and go 7.

Maybe 8. No more. Anyone giving him 10 years is nuts and I am a huge Cards fan.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:25 PM

One thing people have to understand is this is a Jim Thome situation... MLB union won't allow hometown discounts...

I'm not sure about that. On a much smaller scale Bruce Chen reportedly re-signed with KC for a little less than another offer. There's mention of it in the repository thread somewhere.

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 08:26 PM

If he does leave St. Louis, it would be a good time for the Royals to start winning. They could recoup alot of the bandwagoners who hopped on the Cardinals train.

O.city

12-06-2011, 08:27 PM

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:31 PM

I guess so. I just see it as look what the team and city has done for Albert. He has a chance to be "the" Cardinal. Not a Cardinal, "the" Cardinal. I guess in my eyes as a big Cardinal fan that would be worth more to me than the money.

Also how much more money are we talking in Miami? I havne't really paid attention to that.

There was a report of $230 mill but it's unconfirmed I think.

I agree with you though... I hate the Cardinals but Pujols should stay there and be the man. It's not like he's going to run out of money with what they can pay. I appreciate guys who are loyal to teams/citys that are good to them.

veist

12-06-2011, 08:32 PM

BNightengaleBob Nightengale

#STLCARDS Pujols now has three teams that are offering 10-year contracts in excess of $200 million: STL, MIAMI, AND unidentified team

Pretty sure Nightengale's source is called either Dan or Mr. Lozano by Nightengale. The "Mystery Team" tm deal is agent baloney. There are 7,000 reporters down there and nobody has chased down the team? It doesn't exist.

MIAdragon

12-06-2011, 08:33 PM

Read an interesting article that a lot of these moves might be a way of invigorating the hispanic fan base in Miami. If that's the case, and it's actually kind of brilliant, then I don't see that fan base being the same as the shitty fan base that roots for the Heat or the Dolphins.

Not to say that they want Pujols for his hispanic descent. Guillen, Reyes, Pujols... this is quickly becoming Latin America's team. And it's the perfect market to do that.

LMAO this is a city where a pro soccer team flopped (pretty sure it was full of Latin players), there IS no market here. People here are too self involved to give a shit about pro sports. This is just throwing good money after bad.

MIAdragon

12-06-2011, 08:33 PM

Pretty sure Nightengale's source is called either Dan or Mr. Lozano by Nightengale. The "Mystery Team" tm deal is agent baloney. There are 7,000 reporters down there and nobody has chased down the team? It doesn't exist.

Cubs maybe?

Ebolapox

12-06-2011, 08:34 PM

Can you blame them? I can't.

these guys are mercenaries. you can't expect anything better of them, man. granted, it's easy to think otherwise at times.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:34 PM

There was a report of $230 mill but it's unconfirmed I think.

I agree with you though... I hate the Cardinals but Pujols should stay there and be the man. It's not like he's going to run out of money with what they can pay. I appreciate guys who are loyal to teams/citys that are good to them.

Meh. Like UFC Knight said, Pujols has also been good to the Cardinals. He's been paid 14mil(?) a year through his prime up until now. I think it's time for the Cardinals to step up to the plate.

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 08:34 PM

MIAdragon

12-06-2011, 08:36 PM

ESPN reported its the Cubs.

You would this Theo would have learned his lesson after seeing the boat anchors he left the Sox with.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:36 PM

ESPN reported its the Cubs.

For some reason I dont buy that.

They've been after Fielder for less years at a higher annual salary. Doesn't make sense that they would also offer a 31 year old 10 years.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:37 PM

Meh. Like UFC Knight said, Pujols has also been good to the Cardinals. He's been paid 14mil(?) a year through his prime up until now. I think it's time for the Cardinals to step up to the plate.

If the report of them being at 10 years and over 200 mill now is true I'd say they have stepped up. I think they'd like to be able to keep a team around him too.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 08:39 PM

LMAO this is a city where a pro soccer team flopped (pretty sure it was full of Latin players), there IS no market here. People here are too self involved to give a shit about pro sports. This is just throwing good money after bad.

Point taken. I hate the other Miami sports. Thought it could have been an interesting angle, but you never know.

It could also be that hispanic fans don't hate the Miami soccer team as much as it is that they hate MLS.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:42 PM

If the report of them being at 10 years and over 200 mill now is true I'd say they have stepped up. I think they'd like to be able to keep a team around him too.

Ya well, they aren't worried about matching any offers he gets. They are expecting a discount.

O.city

12-06-2011, 08:44 PM

Ya well, they aren't worried about matching any offers he gets. They are expecting a discount.

You don't think they should expect one?

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:45 PM

Ya well, they aren't worried about matching any offers he gets. They are expecting a discount.

As I've said I think they should get one.

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:46 PM

You don't think they should expect one?

They've had one for years.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 08:48 PM

They've had one for years.

He could have asked for more when he got his last deal as he was really entering his prime. At his age now though the demands are ludicris... imo. We can agree to disagree.

seclark

12-06-2011, 08:49 PM

They've had one for years.

think so? they made the offer and he signed it. just because he played his best, you think they should have paid him more than what he signed for? life don't work that way. i mean, if my boss gives me a giant "bonus" cause i kicked ass at work, that's great. but i really don't expect it.
sec

veist

12-06-2011, 08:50 PM

ESPN reported its the Cubs.

The Cubs offer is old news though, it was reported yesterday that they'd made an offer that wasn't considered enough (no surprise since they don't want to give the years Pujols wants) why would they go from making an offer to "MYSTERY TEAM" unless its Lozano looking for more leverage?

jd1020

12-06-2011, 08:54 PM

think so? they made the offer and he signed it. just because he played his best, you think they should have paid him more for what he signed? life don't work that way. i mean, if my boss gives me a giant "bonus" cause i kicked ass at work, that's great. but i really don't expect it.
sec

In case you didn't know, Pujols was kicking ass just as much before signing his previous contract. It didn't just click for him recently.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 08:54 PM

LeBron got tired of waiting for the Cavs to put some good complimentary players around him imo. I've never blamed him for leaving. He didn't get much help from the front office in Cleveland.

He had plenty good enough supporting casts for a marquee player to win a championship with. The team was built around him.

Pujols has worked hard, carried himself humbly, finished business in STL, and is now leaving for more money. Not a decision I would make, but maybe he's looking for a new challenge. New scenery. Or to make a little bit more money before he retires. But the difference is, he doesn't leave with any unfinished business.

Lebron gave up in his final playoff series with the Cavs, knew he was going to Miami the entire year and yet strung the Cavs along for an entire year (screwing the Cavs' chance to get good free agents), went on live TV to humiliate a city of very loyal fans, and then spent an entire year wondering why people were mad about it. And worst of all, he committed the biggest crime to a sports fan--he decided he was going to manipulate the system to win a championship because he couldn't do it on his own.

This isn't even in the same ballpark as Lebron.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 08:55 PM

He could have asked for more when he got his last deal as he was really entering his prime. At his age now though the demands are ludicris... imo. We can agree to disagree.

I don't think the demands are ridiculous. I think the offers are ridiculous.

If I'm Pujols, I'm going to demand what the best offer is going to be.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 09:00 PM

He had plenty good enough supporting casts for a marquee player to win a championship with. The team was built around him.

Pujols has worked hard, carried himself humbly, finished business in STL, and is now leaving for more money. Not a decision I would make, but maybe he's looking for a new challenge. New scenery. Or to make a little bit more money before he retires. But the difference is, he doesn't leave with any unfinished business.

Lebron gave up in his final playoff series with the Cavs, knew he was going to Miami the entire year and yet strung the Cavs along for an entire year (screwing the Cavs' chance to get good free agents), went on live TV to humiliate a city of very loyal fans, and then spent an entire year wondering why people were mad about it. And worst of all, he committed the biggest crime to a sports fan--he decided he was going to manipulate the system to win a championship because he couldn't do it on his own.

This isn't even in the same ballpark as Lebron.

I didn't say Pujols is the same as LeBron, I just said I didn't blame LeBron for leaving. The way he did it was stupid yes. We can disagree on the level of talent around LeBron.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 09:02 PM

I don't think the demands are ridiculous. I think the offers are ridiculous.

If I'm Pujols, I'm going to demand what the best offer is going to be.

I get that a guy is going to look for money. When he turned down 9 years/$198 from the Cards last off season his demands became ridiculous... in my opinion.

seclark

12-06-2011, 09:04 PM

In case you didn't know, Pujols was kicking ass just as much before signing his previous contract. It didn't just click for him recently.
i know...i've followed his progress.

i sign a contract w/my employer every 3 years. they know what they're paying me. i know what they're paying me. hell, i think i'm one of the most productive employees at my company, but i know what i signed that contract for. if the lazy dipshit next to me makes more, i don't give a rats ass. his contract, his business. when my next contract comes up, i'll sign for the next 3 years, not for the last 30 years i've worked there. it's pretty simple, really.

like i said...i've loved having ap play for my favorite team. i'd love for him to be a cardinal forever. but if he wants to leave for bigger bucks than what he's going to produce for my team in the future years, thus being detrimental to the rest of the club, then let him go.
sec

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 09:10 PM

He had plenty good enough supporting casts for a marquee player to win a championship with. The team was built around him.

You and Dan Gilbert are the only idiots you actually beleive this.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 09:19 PM

You and Dan Gilbert are the only idiots you actually beleive this.

Drew Gooden, Ilgauskus, Larry Hughes, Varejao. And in every team he played for, the Cavs had one of the most suffocating defenses in the league with plenty of solid role players. The team was built around a superstar. In the later years, they couldn't get Lebron better players because Lebron refused to sign a long-term contract. That's why they traded for shitty stopgaps like Jamison and Joe Smith. Because no free agent in their right mind would sign a long-term deal.

Lebron played on plenty of supporting casts that would have won a championship with a superstar.

Dr. Johnny Fever

12-06-2011, 09:27 PM

Drew Gooden, Ilgauskus, Larry Hughes, Varejao.

You're really making the arguement that those 4 guys were a good enough supporting cast to win a title? Really? Even as a KU homer I know Gooden was mostly worthless... and Anderson Varejao?! Anderson Varejao???!!!

Good God man! Hate LeBron all you want but damn...

mnchiefsguy

12-06-2011, 09:37 PM

10 years, 200 million is a lot, and Albert probably has 5-7 years left...but if you win another world series or two, wouldn't it be worth the cost?

And I don't believe this crap I hear about St. Louis being a "small market" team....They have the cash to do this, and it would not hamper them in anyway to continue to rebuild a winner.

BigRedChief

12-06-2011, 09:49 PM

Reports trickling out that the Cardinals matched the Marlins 10 year offer with the same money and added a full no trade clause.

Chiefaholic

12-06-2011, 09:51 PM

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111206&content_id=26108756&vkey=news_stl&c_id=stl

DALLAS -- If resolution on Albert Pujols' situation is in fact coming soon, the Cardinals are not going down without a fight. General manager John Mozeliak said Tuesday evening that his team has tendered a new contract offer to the slugger. Mozeliak declined to provide any specifics on the offer, or to illuminate how or whether it differs from the club's offer last winter to Pujols.

Still, it's movement and is believed to be the first offer the club has made since the season ended. Asked whether the ball was in the Cardinals' court or that of Pujols' camp, Mozeliak simply said: "Theirs."

St. Louis still holds out hope to re-sign its signature player, a man who ranks in the franchise's top five all time in nearly every major offensive category. It's clear, though, that Miami is sincere and aggressive in its pursuit of Pujols as well. No deadline has been set by the Cardinals or by Pujols' agent, Dan Lozano, Mozeliak said, but the matter could gain significant clarity in the near future.

The Marlins have made a 10-year offer to Pujols, and the two clubs appeared to be the only serious suitors for the three-time National League Most Valuable Player at this time. USA Today's Bob Nightengale reported Tuesday night that the Cardinals have upped their proposal to 10 years, and a mystery team has also offered Pujols a 10-year contract. Miami has aggressively stepped up its pursuit of Pujols since the Winter Meetings began.

"In this case," Mozeliak said, "I think we're participants. I don't think we're dictating anything."

The Cardinals would of course love to have the matter settled in their favor. But one way or another, the club is eager for a conclusion, in order to pursue other matters. St. Louis still would like to upgrade its bullpen and middle infield, as well as potentially adding some bench depth.

"We've definitely put all of our eggs into this basket as far as trying to address it," Mozeliak said. "So for the resources upstairs here [in the team's suite], meaning all the people working, it would be helpful to start looking at other options if necessary."

Matthew Leach is a reporter for MLB.com. Read his blog, Obviously, You're Not a Golfer and follow him on Twitter at @MatthewHLeach. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

chiefzilla1501

12-06-2011, 09:54 PM

You're really making the arguement that those 4 guys were a good enough supporting cast to win a title? Really? Even as a KU homer I know Gooden was mostly worthless... and Anderson Varejao?! Anderson Varejao???!!!

Good God man! Hate LeBron all you want but damn...

LeBron/a young Z/Larry Hughes/Gooden with Varejao as the #6 guy off the bench... it's not nearly as bad as people say. And Eric Snow as a useless scorer, but a good ballhandler and defender. In his latter years, they never brought in the marquee free agents. But they were a defensive powerhouse with good, solid role players. The problem is that people are stuck on this idea that you have to build a roster stacked with superstars.

The team was built very well for Lebron. The problem is that the Cavs built the team to support Lebron being "the guy." Pretty clear that in Miami, that's not who he is. His ego will never admit it, but he's a very good player who needs somebody else to take over in key moments.

Lebron had a good enough supporting cast early in his career to win a championship. Later in his career, if he committed to Cleveland, he could have convinced a very good free agent to sign a long-term contract there.
So instead, the Cavs fell over backwards for him and tried to piece together shitty 2-year stopgaps like Jamison, all aimed at getting Lebron a winner so he'd stay in Cleveland. Lebron weaseled his way into convincing not one but two marquee players to sign in Miami. He couldn't have even tried to do the same in Cleveland?

BigRedChief

12-06-2011, 10:01 PM

Marlins say they expect a Pujols decision tonight.
Per ESPN
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7325063/sources-miami-marlins-expect-albert-pujols-resolution-tuesday-night

Al Bundy

12-06-2011, 10:03 PM

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Angels pursuing Pujols. Ongoing conversations. #MLB

Chiefs Pantalones

12-06-2011, 10:24 PM

I hate the Cards, but he would be a fucking fool to leave that organization AFTER JUST WINNING THE DAMN WORLD SERIES!!!

ferrarispider95

12-06-2011, 11:03 PM

Isn't it sick how it is all about money, no hometown love. You are talking about money that would be hard to spend if your tried.

I am not cardinals fan either, but I can't believe that he would leave.

tk13

12-06-2011, 11:06 PM

Lots of mixed signals on the Angels. Several different sources independently saying the mystery team is not the Angels.

tk13

12-06-2011, 11:08 PM

Apparently Bob Nightengale said on KMOX said it's not the Angels, Rangers, or Giants. Gotta be the Cubs, or a complete out of left field team.

O.city

12-06-2011, 11:16 PM

I bet it's the Phillies.

tk13

12-06-2011, 11:18 PM

Yeah, the Boston Globe national baseball writer claims the Cubs are "definitely" not in on Pujols. At this point everyone that's not St. Louis or the Marlins are denying everything.

veist

12-06-2011, 11:21 PM

Its not the Angels unless Scioscia is convinced that Pujols can catch. :P

ChiefsCountry

12-06-2011, 11:22 PM

Come on we all know David Glass and Dayton Moore are the secert team. ;)

Gadzooks

12-06-2011, 11:27 PM

Poo Holes LMAO

tk13

12-06-2011, 11:43 PM

Jim Bowden of ESPN just tweeted that it's down to the Marlins and Cardinals, "period."

Makes sense, there were a ton of different writers saying the Angels and Cubs weren't in on this.

veist

12-06-2011, 11:51 PM

Just remember, Bob Nightengale is Dan Lozano's version of Jon Heyman for Scott Boras. If Heyman says something about a Boras client it probably came from Boras' mouth same for Nightengale and Lozano.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 01:47 AM

Reports trickling out that the Cardinals matched the Marlins 10 year offer with the same money and added a full no trade clause.

According to rotoworld...

Marlins offered 10/220
Cardinals stuck with 9 years but upped the money to around 200.

Jim Bowden of ESPN.com and MLB Network Radio on SiriusXM reports that Albert Pujols will decide between the Cardinals and Marlins.
We've heard plenty of chatter about a mystery team and the possibility that it could be the Angels, but Bowden is quite adamant that this is a two-team race. While negotiations are expected to continue throughout the night and into the morning, MLB Network's Jon Heyman hears that a "good number" of MLB executives still think the Marlins will win the bidding. Stay tuned.

HMc

12-07-2011, 06:18 AM

Maybe he's up for the challenge of leading a different team to a championship, even if the money is the same?

I have no emotional investment but I don't think there's anything dishonorable about spending 11 years at one team then 10 at another.

evenfall

12-07-2011, 07:41 AM

whoman69

12-07-2011, 11:07 AM

Maybe Cardinals fans don't feel this way, but I think it would be foolish to invest $200+ million and 10 years in someone who has probably 3-4 years left being worth it.

Do they want to be paying someone $30 million+ who's 35 and hitting .270 like the Yankees are? I don't think that's in the team's long-term best interest...

Beginning to feel that way myself. Get another outfielder and top pitcher for the same money. The offense is down a bit, but it picks up the pitching staff. This contract would take Pujols until he's 41. Unless he starts dipping into the steroids like Bonds, his career will start dipping after 35.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 11:21 AM

Marlins are on fucking fire. Now they are offering CJ Wilson a 6 year deal.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 11:26 AM

st. louis fans sounding a bit bitter here, fwiw.

Took about 80 more posts than I thought it would for that to come out.

I don't see how anyone gets 'bitterness' from this at all, but it's pretty much what I expected to hear from Royals and Cubs fans.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 11:29 AM

Front load the contract.

Economically asinine.

Backload the ever-living shit out of it and do so in a manner that allows for interest-free deferments.

It's his last deal, so it's not going to set a baseline for later contract discussions (that's the only drawback to backloading). Take the tens of millions you save over the first 6-7 years of the deal and invest it. With that kind of money, an 8% return is generally pretty easy. You'll double it over the life of the contract at a simple 7% return.

The Cardinals could backload that deal and invest accordingly in a manner that would make that $220 million only cost somewhere in the neighorhood of $170 million in 'real' dollars; the difference being money earned off the backloaded portion.

And that doesn't even get into the inflationary possibilities given baseballs unbridled payroll structure.

If he'll do that, yes.

If Mozeliak offers that, DeWitt should fire him on the spot for being an absolute moron.

rageeumr

12-07-2011, 11:31 AM

Buster Olney
@Buster_ESPN
No final decision in place, but there is a growing sense among some of officials involved in Pujols talks that he is staying with St. Louis.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 11:33 AM

I agree. Back loading contracts is always the way to go... Alfonso Soriano.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 11:34 AM

Buster Olney
@Buster_ESPN
No final decision in place, but there is a growing sense among some of officials involved in Pujols talks that he is staying with St. Louis.

Probably. Marlins made a 6 year offer to CJ Wilson. Speculations are that they couldn't make that offer if they feel Pujols is leaning towards Stl.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 11:34 AM

No, totally, totally different situations.

I like the Cardinals and hope Pujols stays. But how can you blame him for wanting more money at this stage in his career? He's earned that right. Lebron, on the other hand, promised Cleveland a championship and then chicken-shitted out so he can buy a championship. And unless Pujols makes some kind of a chicken shit announcement on national TV, he'll do it with more character than Lebron did too.

I could see why a Cards fan would be mad. But it's hard to mad at a guy who has done so much for the team and the city.

Exactly.

The Cardinals front office got Pujols for 11 years at about 20% of this true financial value to the franchise. He was a screaming bargain over that time period.

If they had a brain in their head, they'd hold that money in a sort of 'escrow' because they know this day is coming.

Well now it's time to pay the man if you want to keep him. Sure, you can 'sell high' on him, take your excess value and let the Marlins foolishly overpay for him. Or you could take that excess value, put it back into Pujols and essentially 'purchase' a legend. By re-investing the excess value of the previous 11 years back into Pujols, DeWitt and Co. will ensure that Pujols goes down as the 2nd greatest Cardinal of all time.

Pujols has every right to demand that re-investment from the franchise, IMO. He doesn't owe the Cardinals a hometown discount at this point; he already gave them one for his entire prime.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 11:43 AM

Reports trickling out that the Cardinals matched the Marlins 10 year offer with the same money and added a full no trade clause.

Unlikely, well at least as to form (it appears they will go to 10/$220)

Pujols would have a no-trade clause by virtue of his 10/5 rights. The Cardinals can't sign him to a contract without a no-trade because his 10/5 rights would guarantee it.

So if a reporter is reporting that Pujols was granted a full no-trade clause, he's either making shit up or just being very sloppy.

eazyb81

12-07-2011, 11:46 AM

Could the Marlins be any more transparent?

It is obvious they are trying to go all 1997 again to promote the new stadium by overpaying for a ton of big free agents, winning the World Series, and then dumping them all in trades a year or two later.

This was the cheapest organization in the sport just a year or two ago.

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-07-2011, 12:46 PM

jcrasnickJerry Crasnick

Lots of buzz in Dallas that the Pujols decision is shifting strongly in the #Cardinals direction.

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-07-2011, 01:01 PM

Jon_HeymanJon Heyman

#marlins already in pursuit of prince. Signs indicate cards likely to get pujols

evenfall

12-07-2011, 01:07 PM

A Pyrrhic victory, if they paid him anywhere near what the Marlins were offering.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 01:19 PM

Though this is pretty badass:

http://p.twimg.com/AgE9JVZCAAEZR9N.jpg

When Musial says it, you do it...

veist

12-07-2011, 03:48 PM

I agree. Back loading contracts is always the way to go... Alfonso Soriano.

Did you miss the "interest free deferments" part? That's where it makes sense, inflation being what it is if you can defer the shit out of the money that way you win by back loading it.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:04 PM

I agree. Back loading contracts is always the way to go... Alfonso Soriano.

So it would've been smarter to pay him $90 million over the last 5 seasons than it would have been to pay him $74 million over the same period of time?

You're aware that frontloading a deal doesn't make it cheaper, right? All the Cubs would've have done in the event that they front-loaded that deal was pay him $18 million/season for the first five years of the deal, as opposed to the last five.

Does that make him easier to trade? Well no, it does not. MLB allows teams to transfer money in the deal. So sure, Soriano's $18/per sounds bad to trade now, but by paying only 9, 13 and 16 over the first 3 years of the deal, they've saved $16 million that could be invested, increased and now sent to the trade partner to offset the cost.

You don't seriously believe the argument you're making here, do you? There is absolutely nothing that makes sense about front-loading a deal in an environment that does not have a salary cap.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:08 PM

So it would've been smarter to pay him $90 million over the last 5 seasons than it would have been to pay him $74 million over the same period of time?

You're aware that frontloading a deal doesn't make it cheaper, right? All the Cubs would've have done in the event that they front-loaded that deal was pay him $18 million/season for the first five years of the deal, as opposed to the last five.

Does that make him easier to trade? Well no, it does not. MLB allows teams to transfer money in the deal. So sure, Soriano's $18/per sounds bad to trade now, but by paying only 9, 13 and 16 over the first 3 years of the deal, they've saved $16 million that could be invested, increased and now sent to the trade partner to offset the cost.

You don't seriously believe the argument you're making here, do you? There is absolutely nothing that makes sense about front-loading a deal in an environment that does not have a salary cap.

You don't seriously believe teams back load contracts to invest the money saved, do you?

They are going to take that money saved from the early years and buy another player. In the Cardinals case, they'll buy a SP.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:18 PM

You don't seriously believe teams back load contracts to invest the money saved, do you?

A) In fact, they do. If only via a shell game, they most assuredly do. When Bill DeWitt and crew only spend $100 million of their dollars on the Cardinals, instead of $110, they're leaving that extra $10 million somewhere else. Now some of that could be baseball investments (more money in latin scouting, more money in the draft pool; both of which are sources for low-cost talent). Even more of that is very likely in 'conventional' non-baseball investments.

But either way, the money doesn't vanish; it is otherwise used. When you're talking about money of that scale, it isn't difficult at all to make quite a bit more off of it, even in conservative investment vehicles. That money makes ol' Bill DeWitt an even wealthier man and all the more willing to eat a few $$ come payroll time.

B) Besides, now you're arguing about the intelligence of how the money saved is spent; which is a different story entirely. How the money is eventually spent or otherwise invested is completely different from how a contract should be structured from an economic standpoint. Even if DeWitt turns around and spends that $10 million on hookers and blow, the contract itself was still far more economically sound than front-loading it.

Oh, and getting beyond all that, you continue to ignore the inflationary nature of baseball salaries.

There are times when someone can cite a position as being 'an opinion' and thus capable of some gray area or reasonable disagreement. This, however, is not one of those time. From any logical economic perspective, it never EVER makes sense to front-load a contract absent a salary cap.

You are just flat wrong.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:25 PM

I agree. It makes no sense to pay a player more for his best years and maybe throw some incentive deals on the back end when the money lessens.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:32 PM

I agree. It makes no sense to pay a player more for his best years and maybe throw some incentive deals on the back end when the money lessens.

Glad we're on the same page.

Though, for the record, the MLB CBA does not allow for performance based incentives. Besides, now you're not talking about front-loading a deal, you're talking about lowering the overall value of a deal by tying part of it to incentives.

I don't see why this is so difficult for you to comprehend - it's MLB; these contracts are all guaranteed. The money is going to be paid. So if the money is going to be paid, when you pay it is immaterial, more accurately, it's immaterial if you're trying to factor when you pay it in relation to when it is earned via commensurate performance. Who gives a shit if you're paying him when he's most productive? You're going to be paying him anyway. At that point the only question is "how can we reduce the hit in 'real' dollars paid over the life of the deal"? The answer is the same as its always been in finance - defer the costs.

It's not like the NFL where you can cut the guy loose at the end. Albert Pujols is going to get $220 million over 10 years. If you can convince him to take $1/year for the next 9 years and the remaining $219,999,991 in the final year, you are MILES ahead of the game because you keep that money and are able to invest it.

Or maybe you think banks charge interest on long-term payments because people enjoy paying it.

The time value of money is not a myth, nor are economies of scale when dealing with figures this large. If you truly don't understand this, you are a complete fool.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:34 PM

Glad we're on the same page.

Though, for the record, the MLB CBA does not allow for performance based incentives. Besides, now you're not talking about front-loading a deal, you're talking about lowering the overall value of a deal by tying part of it to incentives.

I don't see why this is so difficult for you to comprehend - it's MLB; these contracts are all guaranteed. The money is going to be paid. So if the money is going to be paid, when you pay it is immaterial, more accurately, it's immaterial if you're trying to factor when you pay it in relation to when it is earned via commensurate performance. Who gives a shit if you're paying him when he's most productive? You're going to be paying him anyway. At that point the only question is "how can we reduce the hit in 'real' dollars paid"? The answer is the same as its always been in finance - defer the costs.

It's not like the NFL where you can cut the guy lose at the end. Albert Pujols is going to get $220 million over 10 years. If you can convince him to take $1/year for the next 9 years and the remaining $219,999,991 in the final year, you are MILES ahead of the game because you keep that money and are able to invest it.

Or maybe you think banks charge interest on long-term payments because people enjoy paying it.

The time value of money is not a myth, nor are economies of scale when dealing with figures this large. If you truly don't understand this, you are a complete fool.

I'm not talking about lowering anything... I'm talking about incentive bonuses.

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 04:37 PM

I'm not talking about lowering anything... I'm talking about incentive bonuses.

It is my understanding that there is no such thing in the MLB because the CBA explicitly forbids it.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:40 PM

It is my understanding that there is no such thing in the MLB because the CBA explicitly forbids it.

There are incentives in tons of contracts.

Soriano's contract comes with this - "award bonuses: $0.25M for top vote-getter in All-Star balloting, $0.35M for World Series MVP, $0.25M for LCS MVP, $0.3M for MVP, $75,000 for Gold Glove"

Dempster - award bonuses: $0.5M for Cy Young ($0.3M for 2nd, $0.25M for 3rd, $0.15M for 4th, $0.1M for 5th); $0.5M for MVP ($0.3M for 2nd, $0.25M for 3rd, $0.15M for 4th, $0.1M for 5th); $0.5M for WS MVP; $0.2M for LCS MVP; $75,000 each for Gold Glove, All Star

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:42 PM

I'm not talking about lowering anything... I'm talking about incentive bonuses.

That's the extent of your response?

You're going to continue to ignore every bit of economic reality contained in there in order to once again harp about including incentive bonuses? Bonuses which, again, cannot be tied to performance?

Besides, that's exactly what you're arguing. Incentives have an economic value (amount of incentive multiplied by the likelihood of achieving them). If you're including incentives in the back of the contract in lieu of salary, then you're talking about reducing the value of the contract.

If you're talking about incentives in addition to the salary, you're talking about raising the value of the contract.

All you're doing there is dicking around with the overall value of the contract. None of that changes the fact that it still makes absolutely no sense at all to front-load the guaranteed portion of the salary.

Again - do people pay interest for charity?

If my firm offers to give me my next 7 years worth of salary tomorrow - done. I'll pay off every note I have to save the interest on those, I'll invest the rest in conservative crap the yields 7% and I'll end up better than twice as wealthy for my efforts (the math doesn't lie here; give it a shot).

You're not making any sense here. Money now is always more valuable than money later under any economic scale.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:44 PM

It is my understanding that there is no such thing in the MLB because the CBA explicitly forbids it.

They can be based on awards and appearances.

You can't have performance based incentives like "batting average above .300", but you can have them based on MVP finishes or total ABs. You can also vest option years based on same.

But again, they have nominal economic value and have nothing to do with when the guaranteed portion paid is most valuable.

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 04:52 PM

There are incentives in tons of contracts.

Soriano's contract comes with this - "award bonuses: $0.25M for top vote-getter in All-Star balloting, $0.35M for World Series MVP, $0.25M for LCS MVP, $0.3M for MVP, $75,000 for Gold Glove"

Dempster - award bonuses: $0.5M for Cy Young ($0.3M for 2nd, $0.25M for 3rd, $0.15M for 4th, $0.1M for 5th); $0.5M for MVP ($0.3M for 2nd, $0.25M for 3rd, $0.15M for 4th, $0.1M for 5th); $0.5M for WS MVP; $0.2M for LCS MVP; $75,000 each for Gold Glove, All Star

Major League Rule 3(b)(5) provides as follows:

"No Major League Uniform Player's Contract or Minor League Uniform Player Contract shall be approved if it contains a bonus for playing, pitching or batting skill or if it provides for the payment of a bonus contingent on the standing of the signing Club at the end of the championship season."

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:52 PM

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 04:54 PM

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Is this code for, "I was wrong and refuse to admit it"? hehe.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:55 PM

Is this code for, "I was wrong and refuse to admit it"? hehe.

I've provided proof of contracts having incentives. You're the idiot here.

Here's a brand spanking new contract for you...

Berkman - award bonuses: $0.5M for MVP ($0.35M for 2nd, $0.25M for 3rd); $50,000 for WS MVP, LCS MVP; $25,000 each for Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, All-Star

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 04:56 PM

I've provided proof of contracts having incentives. You're the idiot here.

I'm sure Albert is cringing over losing out on that quarter of a million for being a gold glover.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 04:57 PM

I'm sure Albert is cringing over losing out on that quarter of a million for being a gold glover.

Is that code for "I was wrong?"

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:57 PM

Is this code for, "I was wrong and refuse to admit it"? hehe.

No, his code for "I was wrong and refuse to admit it" appears to be some nonsense about how wealthy businessmen don't know how to invest deferred funds.

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 04:58 PM

No, his code for "I was wrong and refuse to admit it" appears to be some nonsense about how wealthy businessmen don't know how to invest deferred funds.

I'm sure the agents and players are FAR too simple to look at time-value of money concepts. Wait, those are taught in high school? :hmmm:

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 04:59 PM

Major League Rule 3(b)(5) provides as follows:

"No Major League Uniform Player's Contract or Minor League Uniform Player Contract shall be approved if it contains a bonus for playing, pitching or batting skill or if it provides for the payment of a bonus contingent on the standing of the signing Club at the end of the championship season."

The bolded part is the relevant word.

I can be based on duration, not based on skill. It's a very stupid rule, but it is what it is.

MLB contracts do not allow for performance-based incentives.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:01 PM

No, his code for "I was wrong and refuse to admit it" appears to be some nonsense about how wealthy businessmen don't know how to invest deferred funds.

Ya ok... Lets pretend that another player isn't going to be signed with the money saved for the early years and that teams don't have individual salary caps.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:02 PM

I'm sure the agents and players are FAR too simple to look at time-value of money concepts. Wait, those are taught in high school? :hmmm:

For decades general managers in all major sports have been back-loading contracts (including the most successful in every single one of them).

Who'da thunk that they've been doing it wrong all this time? I mean hell, not only the GMs, but the billionaire owners their authorize their actions and the highly paid legal and financial consultants that are scattered throughout their respective organizations.

Thankfully some guy with the economic training of a house-cat is here to straighten them all out.

ShowtimeSBMVP

12-07-2011, 05:04 PM

jcrasnickJerry Crasnick

Source says Pujols continues to negotiate with clubs other than #Cardinals. But Albert will not be going to Florida.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:05 PM

For decades general managers in all major sports have been back-loading contracts (including the most successful in every single one of them).

Who'da thunk that they've been doing it wrong all this time? I mean hell, not only the GMs, but the billionaire owners their authorize their actions and the highly paid legal and financial consultants that are scattered throughout their respective organizations.

Thankfully some guy with the economic training of a house-cat is here to straighten them all out.

Exactly, especially someone who lived on backloaded contracts like Jim Hendry. Sure did him and his organization a lot of good. He got fired and the team went bankrupt.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:08 PM

Ya ok... Lets pretend that another player isn't going to be signed with the money saved for the early years and that teams don't have individual salary caps.

Just as long as you'll continue to ignore that you're talking about a completely different analysis.

How to contract is structured is completely different than how the money intelligently saved should thereafter be spent.

Then again, I already mentioned that and you ignored it. Besides; don't you think the $9 million the Cardinals spent on Berkman this season due to deferred payments owed to Holliday, Lohse and Westbrook more than paid for itself through the World Series they won this year? So even if you want to consider money re-spent, that's an investment in its own right.

Oh yeah, and just keep on ignoring the fact that payroll in baseball has been rising by about 5% annually on balance, as though that's not relevant at all. Nor is the fact that revenue is increasing at a similar clip. That perhaps pushing off the real-time cost of a player will be off-set by commensurate increases in revenue streams such as television, advertising and ticket sales, once again greatly diminishing the 'real dollars' spent on the contract.

You keep looking at this through the eyes of a kindergartner if you'd like, but you're just dead-ass wrong here and by literally every logical analysis.

stonedstooge

12-07-2011, 05:12 PM

Wish Pooholes would hurry the hell up. He's had two years to do this shit, and now is holding up all the other deals till his is finalized. Got some Farve in him

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 05:13 PM

Pujols is just waiting to schedule his special with ESPN to announce his decision.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:13 PM

Exactly, especially someone who lived on backloaded contracts like Jim Hendry. Sure did him and his organization a lot of good. He got fired and the team went bankrupt.

He got fired and his team went bankrupt because he was an idiot and signed Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Zambrano. He got fired because he overspent on bad players, not because of how he structured the contracts.

Once again - do you care to explain to me how giving Alphonso Soriano $90 million over the last 5 years would've made more sense than giving him $76 million over the same time period?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore facts, logic and reason?

Go ahead and tell me why there are no GMs in MLB giving front-loaded contracts? Is every single GM and billionaire owner in this league completely economically inept? Hell, have none of them been bright enough to consult an economist?

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:14 PM

Wish Pooholes would hurry the hell up. He's had two years to do this shit, and now is holding up all the other deals till his is finalized. Got some Farve in him

Other way around. The Cardinals had 2 years to do this.

Cardinals low balled him and he laughed at it. They never budged from that offer and here is he making other teams have the Cardinals step up.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:16 PM

He got fired and his team went bankrupt because he was an idiot and signed Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Zambrano. He got fired because he overspent on bad players, not because of how he structured the contracts.

Once again - do you care to explain to me how giving Carlos Zambrano $90 million over the last 5 years would've made more sense than giving him $76 million over the same time period?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore facts, logic and reason?

Go ahead and tell me why there are no GMs in MLB giving front-loaded contracts? Is every single GM and billionaire owner in this league completely economically inept? Hell, have none of them been bright enough to consult an economist?

John Lackey.
Alex Rodriguez.

How many teams do you see offering 10 years to a 31yr old?

stonedstooge

12-07-2011, 05:16 PM

Other way around. The Cardinals had 2 years to do this.

Cardinals low balled him and he laughed at it. They never budged from that offer and here is he making other teams have the Cardinals step up.

Who refused to negotiate once the season started? The Cardinals?

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:20 PM

Who refused to negotiate once the season started? The Cardinals?

...

Who refused to increase their offer after the best player in baseball said no?

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:20 PM

John Lackey.

Because his agent insisted on it, not because the Red Sox did.

Look at Adrian Gonzalez - minor backload.
Crawford - fairly significant backload
Beckett - Backloaded in his original deal, static in his new one
Youkilis - backloaded
Pedroia - heavily backloaded
Lester - heavily backloaded

Yeah - looks like Epstein makes it a habit of backloading those deals because they make a lot of economic sense...

Oh wait, John Lackey was a free agent with several suitors and his agent insisted on more money up front for a slightly lower AAV.

Stupid !@#$ing facts. Why do they have go to making your argument look stupid all the time...

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:21 PM

Because his agent insisted on it, not because the Red Sox did.

Look at Adrian Gonzalez - minor backload.
Crawford - fairly significant backload
Beckett - Backloaded in his original deal, static in his new one
Youkilis - backloaded
Pedroia - heavily backloaded
Lester - heavily backloaded

Yeah - looks like Epstein makes it a habit of backloading those deals because they make a lot of economic sense...

Oh wait, John Lackey was a free agent with several suitors and his agent insisted on more money up front for a slightly lower AAV.

Stupid !@#$ing facts. Why do they have go to making your argument look stupid all the time...

Alex Rodriguez.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:23 PM

...

Who refused to increase their offer after the best player in baseball said no?

So not only is front-loading contracts intelligent, but so is bidding against yourself.

Christ - you'll revolutionize contract negotiations. The Steinbrenner clan needs to get you on the phone yesterday.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:25 PM

So not only is front-loading contracts intelligent, but so is bidding against yourself.

Christ - you'll revolutionize contract negotiations. The Steinbrenner clan needs to get you on the phone yesterday.

Letting the best player in baseball even sniff free agency is a much better idea...

evenfall

12-07-2011, 05:26 PM

jcrasnickJerry Crasnick

Source says Pujols continues to negotiate with clubs other than #Cardinals. But Albert will not be going to Florida.

He picked the loosest purse-strings in the league to set the market price, now he'll find the team he really wants to play for?

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:26 PM

Alex Rodriguez.

Sabathia, Texiera, Burnett, Jeter, Cano, Soriano, Swisher...

Do we have to keep playing this game? Y'know, the one where an agent has a significant amount of negotiation leverage and convinces a team to structure a contract that's favorable to his client rather than a contract that comports with virtually every single other contract on the roster?

You're actually proving my argument for me pretty nicely here.

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 05:27 PM

Letting the best player in baseball even sniff free agency is a much better idea...

Maybe winning the WS increased their revenue projections and made it more feasible to bring Pujols back? The fact is, players wait to get to the open market unless they are bludgeoned with a ridiculously good deal.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:27 PM

Letting the best player in baseball even sniff free agency is a much better idea...

It absolutely was.

By all accounts, Lozano was requiring 10 years and $275 million to re-sign without testing the market.

Yeah, the Cardinals really fucked up by not giving that to him.

You are really really bad at this.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:27 PM

Sabathia, Texiera, Burnett, Jeter, Cano, Soriano, Swisher...

Do we have to keep playing this game? Y'know, the one where an agent has a significant amount of negotiation leverage and convinces a team to structure a contract that's favorable to his client rather than a contract that comports with virtually every single other contract on the roster?

You're actually proving my argument for me pretty nicely here.

You just said no one is signing people to front loaded contracts and I bring up the one player you can even compare to the situation Pujols is in right now and you completely ignore it.

Thanks for playing.

jd1020

12-07-2011, 05:28 PM

It absolutely was.

By all accounts, Lozano was requiring 10 years and $275 million to re-sign without testing the market.

Yeah, the Cardinals really ****ed up by not giving that to him.

You are really really bad at this.

Keep acting like the Cardinals are a better team without Pujols.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:28 PM

Maybe winning the WS increased their revenue projections and made it more feasible to bring Pujols back? The fact is, players wait to get to the open market unless they are bludgeoned with a ridiculously good deal.

You mean like 10 years, $275 million?!?!?!

Stupid ass Cardinals - I don't know why they didn't just bend over backwards to give Albert whatever he wanted.

Nightfyre

12-07-2011, 05:28 PM

Keep acting like the Cardinals are a better team without Pujols.

Maybe not today, but four years from now I'd be willing to bet they would be better off.

evenfall

12-07-2011, 05:31 PM

Maybe not today, but four years from now I'd be willing to bet they would be better off.

If they had an extra $30 million a year to spend, they certainly could be.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:32 PM

You just said no one is signing people to front loaded contracts and I bring up the one player you can even compare to the situation Pujols is in right now and you completely ignore it.

Thanks for playing.

I'm not ignoring it at all, in fact I directly addressed it.

Those contracts were as a result of the player having leverage over the team and the team refusing to call the player's bluff. In exchange for a reduced AAV, the team front-loaded the deal.

This isn't hard to understand. You only frontload the deal if you're paying a significantly reduced overall $$ figure. Now if the Marlins were offering 10 years and $250 but he Cardinals only want to go 10 years/$210, then they'd have to front-load the contract to increase it's real-time value.

But again, that's manipulating the overall value of the contract to deal with market pressures.

It has nothing to do with what you're discussing.

But keep on covering yourself with glory here, chief. You're doing a bangup job of making yourself look like an idiot.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:33 PM

Keep acting like the Cardinals are a better team without Pujols.

The Cardinals are a better team without Albert Pujols at that contract, yes.

And ultimately it looks like they're going to get him for a hell of a lot less than that. So yeah, they're a better team for calling Lozano's bluff.

Rams Fan

12-07-2011, 05:33 PM

Keep acting like the Cardinals are a better team without Pujols.

Short term they'd be okay.

It would hinge on Adams development at 1B in the long run.

DJ's left nut

12-07-2011, 05:38 PM

Short term they'd be okay.

It would hinge on Adams development at 1B in the long run.

Adams is a bit of a wild hacker with a pretty long swing and no good defensive position. I think he'd be something like Mark Reynolds with less speed. Maybe Carlos Pena with a worse glove?

I think you'd be better served moving Freese over to 1b, Cox to 3b and Craig to RF after Berkman retires. Wong comes in at 2b and Jackson to SS. Then you start drafting bats like crazy in the hopes one of them sticks.

You could save up the FA money to chase someone like Hanley or Upton. I think that long-ass deal that Longoria signed is up in a couple of years. There is always another star on the horizon; they'll figure out a way to get the money spent and they'd be okay.

The real hit would be a PR one.

Marcellus

12-07-2011, 09:55 PM

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/winter-meetings-marlins-out-on-pujols-mozeliak-no-comment/article_b8b10c1e-20ea-11e1-940f-001a4bcf6878.html

Marlins told they are out of Pujols chase
DALLAS -- The Miami Marlins have been told by a representative of Albert Pujols that he will not be joining the calvacade of stars the free-spending club has collected this week at the winter meetings, according to a source familiar with that conversation.
The Marlins have retrained their focus now on pitching.
In addition to finalizing a contract with St. Charles native Mark Buehrle, the Marlins remain engaged in discussions with another free agent starter, reportedly C. J. Wilson. During his conversation with Marlins beat writers and one intruder, general manager Larry Beinfest said the team has put its focus on pitching.
"We are working very hard on pitching," Beinfest said. "We're working on some stuff. It's been an active week."
He added later: "Pitching remains a high priority."
The Cardinals, who cancelled a scheduled evening press briefing for tonight, remain in the best position to re-sign Pujols. Beinfest declined to comment on what he thought the market was for the three-time MVP beyond the Marlins interest.
-- Derrick Goold

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/winter-meetings-marlins-out-on-pujols-mozeliak-no-comment/article_b8b10c1e-20ea-11e1-940f-001a4bcf6878.html#ixzz1fubgWMuA

jd1020

12-08-2011, 08:39 AM

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7329693/sources-los-angeles-angels-third-unidentified-team-enter-albert-pujols-talks-no-decision-imminent

"But despite the Marlins' exit from the bidding, sources said negotiations with the Cardinals hadn't progressed to the point where Pujols was close to agreeing to a deal to return to the only team he has ever played for.

The Cardinals planned to talk with Pujols' agent one more time Thursday before heading home. But ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney reported that the Cardinals' latest offer was for nine years -- not the 10-year, $220 million bid that was reported by the St. Louis Post Dispatch at one point Wednesday morning.

And one source who spoke with Pujols' camp came away with the impression the two sides were farther apart than had been widely portrayed earlier in the day.

USA Today reported that the Angels, who didn't meet with Lozano until Wednesday, made a 10-year offer worth at least $210 million. But the Angels also were engaged in heavy negotiations with Wilson on Wednesday. It was unclear whether the club could afford to sign both a high-priced free agent starter and a player such as Pujols, who will command a nine-figure contract."

...

"We heard late last night that there is "no shot" Albert Pujols will make a decision before the Winter Meetings end. Still, here's the latest on the man who has $200MM+ offers from three teams including the Cardinals, Angels, and a mystery team who would reportedly need to trade an established first baseman to clear a path for the three-time MVP"

That sounds like "Phillies" to me. Maybe the Twins or Reds?

eazyb81

12-08-2011, 09:07 AM

Angels To Sign Albert Pujols (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/angels-to-sign-albert-pujols.html)

By Tim Dierkes [December 8 at 8:56am CST]
The Angels are the bridesmaid no more. Albert Pujols (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker) will sign with the Angels for ten years and $250-260MM, tweets Yahoo's Tim Brown (http://twitter.com/#%21/TBrownYahoo/statuses/144792246787641344). He'll receive a full no-trade clause. Pujols decided this morning, writes Brown. If Pujols received more than $252MM, his new deal will be the second-largest in baseball history in both its total and average annual value. Pujols is represented by Dan Lozano of Icon Sports Group.

Pujols, 32 in January, was drafted by the Cardinals in 1999 in the 13th round and began his career with a staggering 11-year stretch. The first baseman is the active career leader in batting average (.328) and slugging percentage (.617), he's second among active players in career on-base percentage (.421). Pujols owns a Rookie of the Year award and three MVP awards, and has ranked no worse than ninth in the MVP voting in every season of his career. He's been extremely durable, averaging 155 games per season. The Cardinals signed Pujols to a long-term deal in 2004, which ended up being a huge bargain at $111MM over eight years. Pujols and the Cardinals failed to find common ground on an extension in February this year, but the contract didn't seem a distraction as the team ended up winning the World Series.

The suddenly free-spending Marlins made a competitive bid for Pujols this offseason, offering a ten-year deal. They seemingly dropped out after signing Mark Buehrle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker), and up until Thursday morning, the Cardinals were considered the favorite.
With Kendrys Morales (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moralke01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker) and Mark Trumbo (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trumbma01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker), the Angels now have a couple of first base trade chips. Morales could be non-tendered next week.

seclark

12-08-2011, 09:19 AM

bye, and thanks for the memories.
sec

'Hamas' Jenkins

12-08-2011, 09:23 AM

Wow.

Just another mercenary. I don't really know what else to say.

Swanman

12-08-2011, 09:35 AM

All I can say is I am glad the Cards are not going to be on the hook for $26 million per, especially once Albert gets into his late 30's and he really starts to decline. It sucks to lose a legend, but if the money is that important to him, best of luck to him.

Looking forward, looks like Master Allen is the smart pick to put at first and get his bat into the lineup every day. Now the Cards can go out and pick up 3-4 fairly decent pieces to fill out the lineup. Hanley Ramirez is not a happy camper in Miami right now so he could be a possible add at short. I would really like the Cards to fill out the middle infield and get maybe a starter or some mid-priced relief help.

DJ's left nut

12-08-2011, 09:38 AM

Swanman

12-08-2011, 09:47 AM

Broxton just signed for $4 million.

There's no such thing as mid-priced relief help these days.

Go after Fielder or bank it. It's the high price of mediocrity that kills franchises these days.

Nothing decent comes cheap it appears. The Cards have $20 million to spend on different pieces, whether that be 1 piece (Fielder) or several pieces. This roster was in decent shape even without Albert, I think we will be fine next year, especially if Wainwright returns to form.