Admitting Mistakes..key for the Chiefs franchise

[petegz28]

Everyone makes mistakes. The best players, the best coaches, the best GM's, the best owners. They all make mistakes. But, what makes the best the best is they admit their mistakes, learn from their mistakes and make the necessary corrections.

This is a telling time for Clark and Pioli. Will they repeat the same mistakes they have made or will they understand they made some mistakes and learn from them? Typical of new owners and new GM's, they think they know more than anyone else about what they are doing. The recipie for success is rather simple in this league. Owner needs to hire GM and let him do his job and not meddle. GM needs to hire coach and let him do his job and not meddle.

What mistakes have Clark and Pioli made? Hindsight being 20/20 it's easy to see but that is how we judge our mistakes by looking back and learning.

1. Hiring Haley. Mistake? Most likley. No personal football experience, hot tempered, couldn't get along with people and ran off 2 OC's in 3 years and Muir would probably have only stuck around for the pension had Haley stayed.

2. Matt Cassel. Mistake? Yes but to be fair an honest one. More than the Chiefs were after Cassel and a lot, not all but a lot of the fan base was ok with bringing him in. Ok, fair enough. We have watched him for 3 years and learned he isn't the one.

3. Draft picks. Mistakes? Yes but all teams make them. Jackson was a mistake simply because we put him at a position he has never played and not really built to play. Dexter? Mistake. Never should have been drafted given the needs of the team. By the same token Pioli has made some good draft picks in Berry, Baldwin, Arenas and Moeaki.

4. Lack of team identity. Mistake? Yes but part of that is on the coaching staff as well as the front office. Pioli dictated we would be a 3-4 team when he came in before any coach was ever hired. That's a mistake. Let the coaches evaluate the talent, choose the best strategy for the talent that is there and the front office should cater to that. To elaborate further though I don't think a clear identity has ever been targeted for this team. One minute we want to be a power running team, the next a dink-dunk. One game we are blitzing like crazy, the next we are a pillow-soft zone.

5. Lack of roster depth. Mistake? Clearly. This falls on Pioli and Haley both. You have 3 QB's with a total experience level starting in the NFL of 2 1/2 years combined. No excuse there at all for any of them. None! No line depth on either side of the ball and no depth at LB. The secondary when healthy is fairly deep.

6. Brian Waters. Mistake? In hindsight, yes. I was not terribly upset that he left but when you let him go and he goes and starts for the NE Pats then you made a mistake.

Overall there has been a piss-poor display of leadership on this team from the front office to the coaching staff the defensse being the only exception. A head coach who can't get along with other coaches is a bad seed. Gailey gets ran off. Ok, fair enough. But you do it one week before a season starts? Terrible leadership. Weis gets ran off. Fair enough but now you have gone through 2 OC's in as many years. Not a good track record. Muir has the playcalling taken away from him. Terrible. Muir was a terrible decision in the first place but you gave the guy the job you have to stand by your decisions. When the head coach starts meddling at that level with the coordinators it sends the wrong message to the players.

Pioli has his work cut out for him and should be on the hot seat. He needs to bring in a coach who knows WTF he is doing and listen to that coach. If that coach doesn't want Cassel then Cassel is gone. If that coach wants to draft a NT and not a flashy "playmaker" then the NT gets drafted. No coach worth a fuck is going to want to coach this team if he can't have his say on the players. I am not saying that Pioli has to be totally absent in that decision making but he needs to give deferrence to the coach.

New owner, 1st time GM and 1st time head coach is obviously not a good combination. Bring in a good coach. Make a commitment to draft players that are going to solidify this team for the next decade, meaning QB and line players on both sides of the ball. If that means we go back to a 4-3 then sobeit. Unless you are going to cut Dorsey and Jackson going to a 4-3 is probably the best decision. You have 3 stud WR's. Get a QB that can get them the ball and get lineman that can block for him. Again, no coach worth anything is going to want to coach a team where he is continually forced to draft players that don't fit the identity. The "right 53" has to begin with players who can actually play the position they are drafted to play.

Above and beyond all, at this point you have to get a coach with some credibilty. No college come-ups. No former golfers. No retreads with failing records though they have already said they are going to serious look at Romeo. Get a coach that has football experience and has been successful at some point in his career. Romeo would fall into that category as a DC but his time in Cleveland hurts him. Then again I don't think Cleveland has had a good team since Marty left. Get off the Pats\Parcell buddy system.

[keg in kc]

Don't count your chickens before they roost.

Oh wait, wrong thread. Sorry.

[ChiefPressure]

TIM TEBOW IS A VIRGIN

[Bugeater]

too many words

[Nightfyre]

Pete... This thread being about hindsight, I can only say: It's 50/50.

[Hammock Parties]

Unless you are going to cut Dorsey and Jackson going to a 4-3 is probably the best decision.

You are an idiot.

This defense is built apart from NT and depth.

[DeezNutz]

It's not worth debating extensively. It can all be summed up by saying:

Pioli is an inept, overrated piece of shit.

[O.city]

For god sake we don't need to go to a 43 when we have the personel to play 34. We have drafted to play the 34 and are a solid NT away from having a really good defense.


Get a qb, go true fan in the draft. Get an experienced HC.

[Titty Meat]

Letting Waters go was not a mistake.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

How is Matt Cassel an honest mistake? Our GM watched him practice every day for four years. You can't miss on evaluations like that.

[Okie_Apparition]

Couldn't this have waited until the game day thread was in full swing

[Bwana]

Roasted Duck

http://images.media-allrecipes.com/site/allrecipes/area/community/userphoto/small/742364.jpg (http://allrecipes.com/recipe/roasted-duck/photo-gallery.aspx)

Ingredients


2 teaspoons salt
2 teaspoons paprika
1 teaspoon black pepper
1 (5 pound) whole duck
1/2 cup melted butter


Directions


Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C).
Rub salt, pepper, and paprika into the skin of the duck. Place in a roasting pan.
Roast duck in preheated oven for 1 hour. Spoon 1/4 cup melted butter over bird, and continue cooking for 45 more minutes. Spoon remaining 1/4 cup melted butter over duck, and cook for 15 more minutes, or until golden brown.

[OnTheWarpath15]

For god sake we don't need to go to a 43 when we have the personel to play 34. We have drafted to play the 34 and are a solid NT away from having a really good defense.


Get a qb, go true fan in the draft. Get an experienced HC.

Just for the sake of argument, do we really have the personnel to play the 34?

Jackson and Dorsey are average 5-techs at best, and we have no true NT.

[OnTheWarpath15]

How is Matt Cassel an honest mistake? Our GM watched him practice every day for four years. You can't miss on evaluations like that.

But other people wanted him!

Namely, the guy that is likely to become our new HC and/or OC.

FML.

[Titty Meat]

Just for the sake of argument, do we really have the personnel to play the 34?

Jackson and Dorsey are average 5-techs at best, and we have no true NT.

Yes. Tamba Hali is one of the best pass rushers in the game, DJ is one of the best ILB, and Justin Houston is emerging as well. It shouldn't be that hard to find a good Nose Tackle unless Scott Pioli is the GM.

[petegz28]

You are an idiot.

This defense is built apart from NT and depth.

Jackson and Dorsey are not 3-4 DE's. Dorsey is making strides but again, is not the ideal DE for a 3-4. Jackson has what, 1 or 2 sacks in 3 years? He is constantly blown off the ball and cannot beat 1-1 blocks. neither can Dorsey for that matter. Put those same 2 guys in a 4-3 and suddenly you have 2 badass DT's. The last time the Chiefs had a good 3-4 defense you had Neil Smith, Dan Saly and Joe Phillips. We have nothing of the sort. Plus if you're going to run a coverage defense you are better off in a 4-3. A 3-4 that doesn't constantly attack is not an effective 3-4, imo. We are 2-3 solid Dlineman and a good inside LB away from being an effective 3-4. That's assuming Dorsey continues to get better.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yes. Tamba Hali is one of the best pass rushers in the game, DJ is one of the best ILB, and Justin Houston is emerging as well. It shouldn't be that hard to find a good Nose Tackle unless Scott Pioli is the GM.

And all those players would play in a 43 as well, no?

Point being, we're just as far away from a good defense in the 43 as we are in the 34 - about 2-3 players.

[petegz28]

How is Matt Cassel an honest mistake? Our GM watched him practice every day for four years. You can't miss on evaluations like that.

We weren't the only team who wanted him and he came off an 11-5 record. The hope was he would be up and coming. Well, that was false hope.

[Hammock Parties]

Just for the sake of argument, do we really have the personnel to play the 34?

Jackson and Dorsey are average 5-techs at best, and we have no true NT.

Jackson and Dorsey are not average 5 techs. They are poor pass rushers, but they are very good against the run. Amon Gordon is good depth.

If Powe works out we are set at starters.

Fucking up what we have put together on D the last two years is not something I am interested in doing.

[DeezNutz]

Jackson and Dorsey are not 3-4 DE's. Dorsey is making strides but again, is not the ideal DE for a 3-4. Jackson has what, 1 or 2 sacks in 3 years? He is constantly blown off the ball and cannot beat 1-1 blocks. neither can Dorsey for that matter. Put those same 2 guys in a 4-3 and suddenly you have 2 badass DT's. The last time the Chiefs had a good 3-4 defense you had Neil Smith, Dan Saly and Joe Phillips. We have nothing of the sort. Plus if you're going to run a coverage defense you are better off in a 4-3. A 3-4 that doesn't constantly attack is not an effective 3-4, imo. We are 2-3 solid Dlineman and a good inside LB away from being an effective 3-4. That's assuming Dorsey continues to get better.

Jackson has graded out well against the run unless I'm mistaken. Don't get blinded by the fact that he was a disastrous selection at #3 overall and not be able to recognize that he can contribute on some level.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Jackson and Dorsey are not average 5 techs. They are poor pass rushers, but they are very good against the run. Amon Gordon is good depth.

If Powe works out we are set at starters.

Fucking up what we have put together on D the last two years is not something I am interested in doing.

Yep.

So good we rank 26th in the league against the run.

[KurtCobain]

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0714/fantasy_u_mcassel1_300.jpg

[ChiefsCountry]

We weren't the only team who wanted him and he came off an 11-5 record. The hope was he would be up and coming. Well, that was false hope.

Denver with McDumbass
Tampa Bay

Those are the two who wanted him.

[Hammock Parties]

And all those players would play in a 43 as well, no?

Point being, we're just as far away from a good defense in the 43 as we are in the 34 - about 2-3 players.

I don't think Dorsey or Jackson would fit in a 4-3 at all, and I think we'd have two find two new outside linebackers who can cover.

This defense is good enough to win a SB if Berry is OK, we get a NT and Houston keeps trending up.

[DeezNutz]

We weren't the only team who wanted him and he came off an 11-5 record. The hope was he would be up and coming. Well, that was false hope.

Denver wanted him. More specifically, another douche with The Tree hanging out of his ass was equally as myopic as Pioli.

Mind bottling.

[BoneKrusher]

How is Matt Cassel an honest mistake? Our GM watched him practice every day for four years. You can't miss on evaluations like that.



maybe Pioli sent Ray Charles to evaluate Cassel.

[Titty Meat]

And all those players would play in a 43 as well, no?

Point being, we're just as far away from a good defense in the 43 as we are in the 34 - about 2-3 players.

Hali and DJ have been far more productive in the 3-4 it would make no sense going back to the 4-3 at this point if those are the guys we're building around on defense.

[Hammock Parties]

Yep.

So good we rank 26th in the league against the run.

Here we go with the stats.

That's a very deceptive ranking. PFF ranks the Chiefs as a top 10 run defense. Football Outsiders has us at 17th.

We've given up 4.1 YPC this year (15th) and the defense as a whole is allowing something like 19 PPG after the first two weeks.

Nothing wrong with this D Eric Berry won't fix.

Changing the scheme would be a huge setback.

[Titty Meat]

Denver with McDumbass
Tampa Bay

Those are the two who wanted him.

Was this when Gruden was still the coach? IIRC he didn't get canned til very late in the process.

[DeezNutz]

Yep.

So good we rank 26th in the league against the run.

Still weak up the middle.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Hali and DJ have been far more productive in the 3-4 it would make no sense going back to the 4-3 at this point if those are the guys we're building around on defense.

Chicken or the egg?

Scheme or coaching?

Remember who the DC's were when they ran a 43.

[petegz28]

Yes. Tamba Hali is one of the best pass rushers in the game, DJ is one of the best ILB, and Justin Houston is emerging as well. It shouldn't be that hard to find a good Nose Tackle unless Scott Pioli is the GM.

You're still stuck with 2 4-3 DT's playing in a 3-4. You need big, strong guys that can beat 1-1 blocks at DE in a 3-4. If teams tried to single block Neil Smith he burned them and burned them bad. Jackson registers one sack in 3 years? That's not a good 3-4 DE. O-lineman are constantly on our LB's which is another sign of bad DE's.

Plus, romeo prefers a coverage strategy rather than an attacking one. If that's the case I have never thought a 3-4 to be a good read-n-react defense. My opinion is a 3-4 should be a blitzing and attacking defense with a really intense front 7 who can constantly bring it from anywhere and everywhere at any given time.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Still weak up the middle.

Weak up front period.

[petegz28]

Jackson has graded out well against the run unless I'm mistaken. Don't get blinded by the fact that he was a disastrous selection at #3 overall and not be able to recognize that he can contribute on some level.

He has gotten better but I still think he gets eaten up too much by 1-1 blocks.

[Hammock Parties]

Still weak up the middle.

We're weak at NT.

Our MLBs are excellent and Berry is a beast in run defense.

[petegz28]

I don't think Dorsey or Jackson would fit in a 4-3 at all, and I think we'd have two find two new outside linebackers who can cover.

This defense is good enough to win a SB if Berry is OK, we get a NT and Houston keeps trending up.

They played in the 4-3 in college and were very, very good at it. Warren Sapp was probably one of the best DT's in recent history and when moved to a 3-4 he sucked ass.

[petegz28]

We're weak at NT.

Our MLBs are excellent and Berry is a beast in run defense.

Excellent? No. Belcher is average and DJ cannot cover a TE to save his life. Granted DJ is a beast agains the run and a great blitzer. I will live with 2 out of 3 but someone else has to be able to cover the TE's that are eating us alive.

[ChiefsCountry]

Was this when Gruden was still the coach? IIRC he didn't get canned til very late in the process.

No it was Rahemm Morris.

[Hammock Parties]

They played in the 4-3 in college and were very, very good at it. Warren Sapp was probably one of the best DT's in recent history and when moved to a 3-4 he sucked ass.

Dorsey is a terrible pass rusher. Putting him in the 4-3, where your DTs have to provide a pass rush, would be a mistake.

And it goes without saying that Jackson would be a terrible 4-3 pass rusher. And Houston should be playing DE in a 4-3 anyway.

So, basically you believe in angels.

[ChiefsCountry]

We're weak at NT.

Our MLBs are excellent and Berry is a beast in run defense.

Belcher is better suited to be a backup.

[ChiefsCountry]

Still weak up the middle.

So glad we took the midget instead of the Nose Tackle that could have made a difference.

[Hammock Parties]

Belcher is better suited to be a backup.

No, he's one of the better ILBs against the run in this league.

He's a fine starter. You guys want to replace every position when you see a player who isn't a Pro Bowler for some reason.

[petegz28]

Dorsey is a terrible pass rusher. Putting him in the 4-3, where your DTs have to provide a pass rush, would be a mistake.

And it goes without saying that Jackson would be a terrible 4-3 pass rusher. And Houston should be playing DE in a 4-3 anyway.

So, basically you believe in angels.

Totally disagree. Dorsey and Jackson are ideal 4-3 DT's. Quick off the ball and gap hitters. 3-4 DE's have to be block sponges. They have to be able to take on double-teams without being knocked off the ball. This is why we have no pass rush up the middle. A good 3-4 DE is going to take a single bloker and shove him into the QB's lap.

[petegz28]

No, he's one of the better ILBs against the run in this league.

He's a fine starter. You guys want to replace every position when you see a player who isn't a Pro Bowler for some reason.

Anthony Davis was a great ILB in a 3-4. Belcher couldn't hold Davis' jock. Ray Lewis is a great 3-4 ILB. Belcher is nowhere even close.

[jd1020]

Totally disagree. Dorsey and Jackson are ideal 4-3 DT's. Quick off the ball and gap hitters. 3-4 DE's have to be block sponges. They have to be able to take one double-teams without being knocked off the ball. This is why we have no pass rush up the middle. A good 3-4 DE is going to take a single bloker and shove him into the QB's lap.

We have no pass rush up the middle because our NT can barely win a 1 on 1.

[petegz28]

We have no pass rush up the middle because our NT can barely win a 1 on 1.

Same with our DE's. The DT's job is to suck up the blocks in the middle and stand there. Not necessarily give a huge push. The push has to come from the DE's. You want the DT standing firm taking away the gap and taking up 2 blockers. We do not have a 3-4 D-line whatsoever. The only guy we have that has played in and is built for a 3-4 on the line is a guy who is so old he can't play every down.

[petegz28]

Contrary to popular belief, at least as I understand it, the middle pass rush in a 3-4 is primarily going to come from a LB. The 3 D-lienman are there to take on double-teams and if they are blocked 1-1 they need to be able to shove the blocker into the QB's face. Otherwise their job is to stand firm at the line, not get knocked off the ball and take on the blockers so the LB's can hit the gaps.

[mlyonsd]

About all I can say on this entire day is I hope Pioli hires an established coach that can come in and take advantage of a pretty young talented team.

This next coach hiring will determine Pioli's skill (if he has any).

[jd1020]

Same with our DE's. The DT's job is to suck up the blocks in the middle and stand there. Not necessarily give a huge push. The push has to come from the DE's. You want the DT standing firm taking away the gap and taking up 2 blockers. We do not have a 3-4 D-line whatsoever. The only guy we have that has played in and is built for a 3-4 on the line is a guy who is so old he can't play every down.

I don't know what to say if you believe that the DE's should be demanding 2 blockers and blaming the inside rush on the outside players.

[petegz28]

I don't know what to say if you believe that the DE's should be demanding 2 blockers and blaming the inside rush on the outside players.

You mean we don't have 2 ILB's? I am not sure you understand the 3-4.

[jd1020]

You mean we don't have 2 ILB's? I am not sure you understand the 3-4.

I'm not sure you do. The NT is responsible for opening up the middle for the ILB's... not the fucking DE's.

[petegz28]

I'm not sure you do. The NT is responsible for opening up the middle for the ILB's... not the ****ing DE's.

So what is the job of the DE's?

[jd1020]

So what is the job of the DE's?

To beat his man.

[Nightfyre]

To beat his man.

It's a tarp!

[O.city]

In a 34 your not gonna get sacks from your dline consistently. That's no the way it's built.

It's built to allow your 4 LBS to run free and make plays. We don't have a NT that can command a Double team, which allows one of our DE's to be dtd and blockers getting on our lbs.

[petegz28]

To beat his man.

Well guess what......ours aren't doing it

[jd1020]

Well guess what......ours aren't doing it

Well, guess what? The problem is our interior not demanding a double team, allowing every pass rusher to be accounted for by a lineman.

[Hammock Parties]

Totally disagree. Dorsey and Jackson are ideal 4-3 DT's. Quick off the ball and gap hitters.

Sorry, neither of them are quick off the ball gap hitters.

For that very reason, the Chiefs don't play them in pass rush packages.

They are abysmal pass rushers.

[O.city]

Pete would you say the Ravens and the Steelers are the best 34 defenses in the league?


How many sacks come from their dlinemen?

[Hammock Parties]

Tyson Jackson is 6-5, 300 lbs, and you want to play him at 4-3 DT.

You are an idiot, man.

[Hammock Parties]

Anthony Davis was a great ILB in a 3-4. Belcher couldn't hold Davis' jock. Ray Lewis is a great 3-4 ILB. Belcher is nowhere even close.

He's a fine starter. You don't need a Pro Bowler at every position. He's better against the run than Spikes, Timmons and Bishop this year according to PFF.

You can afford to have a guy in your lineup like Belcher if he's surrounded by talent. There are lunchpail players who aren't necessarily great at everything on lots of good defenses.

You are an idiot, Pete. Everyone here keeps telling you that, so please start accepting it. Thanks.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Here's a question:

How many GMs have failed on their first HC, QB, and a top five pick simultaneously and gone on to do anything of note?

[Hammock Parties]

Same with our DE's. The DT's job is to suck up the blocks in the middle and stand there. Not necessarily give a huge push. The push has to come from the DE's. You want the DT standing firm taking away the gap and taking up 2 blockers. We do not have a 3-4 D-line whatsoever. The only guy we have that has played in and is built for a 3-4 on the line is a guy who is so old he can't play every down.

Tyson Jackson is an ideal 3-4 defensive end.

In a 4-3 he would be a backup level player at best. He's incapable of beating an offensive tackle to the outside with speed, so he couldn't play DE. He's too tall and too light to play inside.

Pull your head out of your ass.

[Hammock Parties]

Contrary to popular belief, at least as I understand it, the middle pass rush in a 3-4 is primarily going to come from a LB.

No.

The middle pass rush in our 3-4 comes from guys like Allen Bailey and Wallace Gilberry.

We don't even HAVE three defensive linemen on the field in passing situations.

Just stop posting.

[petegz28]

Pete would you say the Ravens and the Steelers are the best 34 defenses in the league?


How many sacks come from their dlinemen?

I am not sure what your trying to get at here?

[petegz28]

No.

The middle pass rush in our 3-4 comes from guys like Allen Bailey and Wallace Gilberry.

We don't even HAVE three defensive linemen on the field in passing situations.

Just stop posting.

Really? We don't have 3 D-lineman on 1st and 2nd down? Or are you under this belief that teams never pass on 1st and 2nd down? Or are we not to ever rush the passer on 1st and 2nd down? I fail to follow your logic on this "passing situation" crap.

Nevermind your entire argument is moot sincee as you say, in "passing situations" we are not even in a 3-4 so it's rather irrelevant.

[petegz28]

He's a fine starter. You don't need a Pro Bowler at every position. He's better against the run than Spikes, Timmons and Bishop this year according to PFF.

You can afford to have a guy in your lineup like Belcher if he's surrounded by talent. There are lunchpail players who aren't necessarily great at everything on lots of good defenses.

You are an idiot, Pete. Everyone here keeps telling you that, so please start accepting it. Thanks.

how many passing yards have we given up to no-name TE's this year? You fucking idiot.

[O.city]

I am not sure what your trying to get at here?

The top teams in the league running the 34 don't get pressure from thier dlineman. Only on occasion.

[petegz28]

The top teams in the league running the 34 don't get pressure from thier dlineman. Only on occasion.

Ziggy Hood has 4.5 sacks this year. Tyson Jackson has 1 in what, 3 years?

I agree the base concept is the Dlineman in a 3-4 are to suck up blocks so the LB's can make the plays. Although Omega seems to feel differently.

That being said a good 3-4 Dlineman is going to beat a 1-1 block and pressure the QB even if that means shoving his blocker back into the QB's face.

[O.city]

The reason Ziggy hood gets sacks is that he is constantly in 1 on 1 situations. Our de's get double teamed because when we are in base situations, Kelly Gregg is getting his shit pushed in by the center.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Tyson Jackson is an ideal 3-4 defensive end.

In a 4-3 he would be a backup level player at best. He's incapable of beating an offensive tackle to the outside with speed, so he couldn't play DE. He's too tall and too light to play inside.

Pull your head out of your ass.

He's not an ideal 3-4 DEs. Even two gap DEs should get a pass rush at times.

[aturnis]

Funny article. So far, Todd Haley is the only guy in the organization who has had the balls to step up and shoulder blame...

[Hammock Parties]

Really? We don't have 3 D-lineman on 1st and 2nd down?

Not always.

You don't expect your 3-4 ends in this kind of defense to provide much of a pass rush.

Dorsey and Jackson aren't doing it in ANY defensive scheme so switching to a 4-3 is a horrible idea.

[petegz28]

The reason Ziggy hood gets sacks is that he is constantly in 1 on 1 situations. Our de's get double teamed because when we are in base situations, Kelly Gregg is getting his shit pushed in by the center.

So you think if we just got a NT Jackson and Dorsey would be pressuring the QB more?

[aturnis]

The reason Ziggy hood gets sacks is that he is constantly in 1 on 1 situations. Our de's get double teamed because when we are in base situations, Kelly Gregg is getting his shit pushed in by the center.

Our DE's aren't doubled every play. Our NT does command double teams from time to time, also, only one guy gets doubled at a time.

[aturnis]

So you think if we just got a NT Jackson and Dorsey would be pressuring the QB more?

Laughable isn't it?

[petegz28]

Not always.

You don't expect your 3-4 ends in this kind of defense to provide much of a pass rush.

Dorsey and Jackson aren't doing it in ANY defensive scheme so switching to a 4-3 is a horrible idea.

Dorsey and Jackson both came from 4-3 defenses where they were good.

[Hammock Parties]

how many passing yards have we given up to no-name TE's this year? You fucking idiot.

And it's all Belcher's fault? No fucking way.

I want to hear the 4-3 argument that isn't based around the fraudulent notion that Dorsey and Jackson can play DT in that scheme. LMAO

[Hammock Parties]

Dorsey and Jackson both came from 4-3 defenses where they were good.

Yeah, I don't really care. Jackson played DE in college. Nobody with any modicum of football sense has that guy playing 4-3 DE in KC.

[petegz28]

And it's all Belcher's fault? No ****ing way.

I want to hear the 4-3 argument that isn't based around the fraudulent notion that Dorsey and Jackson can play DT in that scheme. LMAO

What position did they play in college?

[ChiefsCountry]

And it's all Belcher's fault? No ****ing way.

I want to hear the 4-3 argument that isn't based around the fraudulent notion that Dorsey and Jackson can play DT in that scheme. LMAO

Dorsey can be a 4-3 DT. Jackson can't.

[CoMoChief]

Well there are many things the chiefs need to do to right the ship

1. Get a good experienced HC....someone who knows how to treat its players and knows how to operate a team and prepare for Sundays.

2. Get healthy

3. QB (get a good backup too, Orton prob won't be here next season)

4. OL + depth

5. DL + depth

6. Safety depth

CUTS: Richardson, Jereme Urban, McGraw, Piscatelli, OConnell, Pope, Cassel, Palko, Weigman, Greenwood, Langford, D.Williams

[O.city]

So you think if we just got a NT Jackson and Dorsey would be pressuring the QB more?

Theoretically yes.


I actually think if Jackson continues to develop on this course he could be a 3 or 4 sack a year guy. Maybe less maybe more.


The key to this defense is having a solid run stuffing NT.

I'm more concerned that our GM of the century hasn't figured that out yet.

[petegz28]

Yeah, I don't really care. Jackson played DE in college. Nobody with any modicum of football sense has that guy playing 4-3 DE in KC.

Obviously because he is doing such a stellar job in the 3-4.

[Hammock Parties]

Seriously, you want to play two 300-pounders at DT in a 4-3.

With Hali and Houston at end.

Way to set the defense back three years.

[petegz28]

Theoretically yes.


I actually think if Jackson continues to develop on this course he could be a 3 or 4 sack a year guy. Maybe less maybe more.


The key to this defense is having a solid run stuffing NT.

I'm more concerned that our GM of the century hasn't figured that out yet.

I agree a good NT will make the entire Dline better., I still think Dorsey has more potential than Jackson at making the switch to a 3-4. Jackson gets his shit stuffed too much for me. Maybe we are starting to see signs and maybe you are right. I hope so beause I don't see them replacing him anytime soon.

[Hammock Parties]

Obviously because he is doing such a stellar job in the 3-4.

He's been a rock against the run. He's doing a good job.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Jackson is a left in a 4-3, and a two-down player at that. Basically, exactly what he is in this scheme. I don't think that talent evaluators were wrong when they said that Dorsey could play the three technique, but when your job is to occupy and scrape, you aren't going to be shooting gaps.

I still think that this team would do well to be a little more exotic in passing situations. Move Dorsey and Gilberry inside, and rush Houston and Hali off the edges.

[petegz28]

Well there are many things the chiefs need to do to right the ship

1. Get a good experienced HC....someone who knows how to treat its players and knows how to operate a team and prepare for Sundays.

2. Get healthy

3. QB (get a good backup too, Orton prob won't be here next season)

4. OL + depth

5. DL + depth

6. Safety depth

CUTS: Richardson, Jereme Urban, McGraw, Piscatelli, OConnell, Pope, Cassel, Palko, Weigman, Greenwood, Langford, D.Williams

I'd keep McGraw simply for depth. Not the ideal starter but good on special teams and a decent reserve for the money.

[Hammock Parties]

Jackson's run defense is rated higher than Brett Keisel's, but you think he gets pushed around a lot.

Uh, no.

[O.city]

Jackson is a left in a 4-3, and a two-down player at that. Basically, exactly what he is in this scheme. I don't think that talent evaluators were wrong when they said that Dorsey could play the three technique, but when your job is to occupy and scrape, you aren't going to be shooting gaps.

I still think that this team would do well to be a little more exotic in passing situations. Move Dorsey and Gilberry inside, and rush Houston and Hali off the edges.

I tend to agree more with this.

We actually have guys who are pretty versatile. Move them around.

[O.city]

Well there are many things the chiefs need to do to right the ship

1. Get a good experienced HC....someone who knows how to treat its players and knows how to operate a team and prepare for Sundays.

2. Get healthy

3. QB (get a good backup too, Orton prob won't be here next season)

4. OL + depth

5. DL + depth

6. Safety depth

CUTS: Richardson, Jereme Urban, McGraw, Piscatelli, OConnell, Pope, Cassel, Palko, Weigman, Greenwood, Langford, D.Williams

I'd say this would be a pretty good start.

[petegz28]

Jackson is a left in a 4-3, and a two-down player at that. Basically, exactly what he is in this scheme. I don't think that talent evaluators were wrong when they said that Dorsey could play the three technique, but when your job is to occupy and scrape, you aren't going to be shooting gaps.

I still think that this team would do well to be a little more exotic in passing situations. Move Dorsey and Gilberry inside, and rush Houston and Hali off the edges.

I agree with this. Seems when we had Cower as a DC and even Adolph and Gunther we just blitzed so much more. Having good bump-run corners helps that a lot and we had some great corners and safteys.

I want that back. I want to get the corners up in a guys face and knock him around coming off the ball while everyone else is going for a QB lunch. You get in those 3rd and longs and QB's just don't have time to throw the ball 20 yards down field.

[O.city]

I know it seems really dark righ tnow as a Chiefs fan with the peckerhead we have at GM, but this team isn't as far away as one might think.


It really all depends on his decision about Cassel. It could determine the way of this franchise for 10 years down the road.

If he were to go qb in the first and that guy actually turned out to be the guy, we are a true fan draft the rest of the way out from putting a really good team out there on sunday. THis is also considering we get healthy.

[Hammock Parties]

Here's what happens if we switch to a 4-3:

Jackson gets pushed around at DT.

Dorsey continues to 2-gap.

Hali is probably not as effective.

We are left holding our dicks looking for two outside linebackers, hoping that DJ can play the middle in a 4-3.

Sounds like a recipe for a bottom 10 defense.

And THIS defense, two games ago, was shitting on Ben Roethlisberger.

Yeah, no.

[aturnis]

Well there are many things the chiefs need to do to right the ship

1. Get a good experienced HC....someone who knows how to treat its players and knows how to operate a team and prepare for Sundays.

2. Get healthy

3. QB (get a good backup too, Orton prob won't be here next season)

4. OL + depth

5. DL + depth

6. Safety depth

CUTS: Richardson, Jereme Urban, McGraw, Piscatelli, OConnell, Pope, Cassel, Palko, Weigman, Greenwood, Langford, D.Williams

:spock: These players LOVE Haley.

[petegz28]

I tend to agree more with this.

We actually have guys who are pretty versatile. Move them around.

I still have memories of the 96 defense basically putting 10 men up on the line and setting the tone. I mean we would line everyone up on the line and the offense knew we were bringing it. And the philosophy was simple....rush the QB and tackle the RB on the way if they hand it to him.

It was intimidating. Think back to the 49rs game when we raped Steve Young. He had that scared look in his eyes after the first sack which I think was like their 2nd or 3rd play from scrimmage.

I want that back. I want that mauling defense back where it didn't matter where you lined up on the line you were going to knock the fuck out of the guy in front of you whether he was a lineman, TE or WR. Whoever it was was not going to come off that line clean and easy and the QB knew he was not going to get away with some 7 step drop and a 20 yard pass without getting his ass stomped.

[aturnis]

Here's what happens if we switch to a 4-3:

Jackson gets pushed around at DT.

Dorsey continues to 2-gap.

Hali is probably not as effective.

We are left holding our dicks looking for two outside linebackers, hoping that DJ can play the middle in a 4-3.

Sounds like a recipe for a bottom 10 defense.

And THIS defense, two games ago, was shitting on Ben Roethlisberger.

Yeah, no.

Agreed. No reason whatsoever to switch to a 4-3. Bad move.

[whoman69]

We should be looking to draft from schools that run the 3-4 for the front seven, especially so for the line. I know occassionally you can project a lighter end to play LB in the 3-4, but very rarely are 4-3 lineman able to play line in a 3-4.

Georgia, Georgia Tech, Houston, Notre Dame, Stanford, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Alabama, Air Force, Army, Navy, BYU, California and SMU

Take the guesswork out.

[Hammock Parties]

:spock: These players LOVE Haley.

The receivers didn't the last month.

[petegz28]

Agreed. No reason whatsoever to switch to a 4-3. Bad move.

I am not saying we should swtich to a 4-3. I prefer a 3-4. I think it is more confusing for an offense and is a much more aggresive scheme. My point was, however badly stated, that if we are going to continue to draft 4-3 players on the line then you might as well switch to a 4-3. And to a lesser degree if we are going to run this soft zone crap then switch to a 4-3. If you're going to run a 3-4 then let the players lace em' up and have at it.

DJ is a beast on the blitz. He almost always gets pressure that alters the play. But we need safetys and another LB that can cover TE's over the middle so you can blitz DJ more.

[O.city]

I still have memories of the 96 defense basically putting 10 men up on the line and setting the tone. I mean we would line everyone up on the line and the offense knew we were bringing it. And the philosophy was simple....rush the QB and tackle the RB on the way if they hand it to him.

It was intimidating. Think back to the 49rs game when we raped Steve Young. He had that scared look in his eyes after the first sack which I think was like their 2nd or 3rd play from scrimmage.

I want that back. I want that mauling defense back where it didn't matter where you lined up on the line you were going to knock the **** out of the guy in front of you whether he was a lineman, TE or WR. Whoever it was was not going to come off that line clean and easy and the QB knew he was not going to get away with some 7 step drop and a 20 yard pass without getting his ass stomped.

Well man I think the times of defenses like that are over. I think we could be more aggressive like we were in the Steeler and first half pats game tho and be very successful.


It's been stated before , but Berry really brings this defense together.

[petegz28]

We should be looking to draft from schools that run the 3-4 for the front seven, especially so for the line. I know occassionally you can project a lighter end to play LB in the 3-4, but very rarely are 4-3 lineman able to play line in a 3-4.

Georgia, Georgia Tech, Houston, Notre Dame, Stanford, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Alabama, Air Force, Army, Navy, BYU, California and SMU

Take the guesswork out.

Dat

is

muh

point!

Well said.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Agreed. No reason whatsoever to switch to a 4-3. Bad move.

The bad move is hiring a coach and forcing him into a scheme he doesn't believe in, or limiting your coaching search to guys that only run the 34.

Hire the best coach, and let HIM dictate what scheme you run.

If that means a switch to the 43, so fucking be it.

Hiring a less qualified coach just because he's willing to run a 34 is just as big a mistake.

[O.city]

I am not saying we should swtich to a 4-3. I prefer a 3-4. I think it is more confusing for an offense and is a much more aggresive scheme. My point was, however badly stated, that if we are going to continue to draft 4-3 players on the line then you might as well switch to a 4-3. And to a lesser degree if we are going to run this soft zone crap then switch to a 4-3. If you're going to run a 3-4 then let the players lace em' up and have at it.

DJ is a beast on the blitz. He almost always gets pressure that alters the play. But we need safetys and another LB that can cover TE's over the middle so you can blitz DJ more.

I'd like to see some safety depth, but you have to remember next year we will hopefully be getting an all pro back at safety.

[petegz28]

Well man I think the times of defenses like that are over. I think we could be more aggressive like we were in the Steeler and first half pats game tho and be very successful.


It's been stated before , but Berry really brings this defense together.

Oh no question Berry adds tremendously to the D. But we need another Berry. I remember having Kevin Ross and Deron Cherry. That's what we need. You want to be a shutdown defense you have to have 2 safetys that can cover and play the run and hit mother fuckers so hard they go back to the huddle saying "don't run that play again". We have 1 of those safetys and we have one of those corners in Carr. I don't think Flowers can play a true bump-run but he can play a press. Carr on the other hand needs to take his game to the next step and be a James Hasty and start laying fuckers out at the line. I think he can do that.

[O.city]

You aren't going to have two safeties playing the run. Ever.

[petegz28]

You aren't going to have two safeties playing the run. Ever.

No but you have to have two safeties that can play both. That was the beauty of Ross, Cherry and Collins. They could do it all so you didn't lose anything when one had to play up and one had to play back.

[petegz28]

I remember when we played and beat the "Greatest Show on Turf" at Arrowhead and kicked their ass with Grbac. The very first play of the game Hasty picked off Warner over the middle. Yes, that's right, a CB picked off a pass over the middle.

Then like the next series Warner went to kind of a quick out about 4 yards downfield to his left and the ball hit the ground because the WR and Hasty were still at the line with the WR laying on the ground. That's the kind of shit I want to see out of this defense.

[petegz28]

anyway, back to the OP, I think perhaps the last 3 years were an unfortunate but necessary evil given the circumstances. Lots of noobs running this team and they "thought" they had it figured out. They thought their way was the right way even though history and to a degree common sense dictated otherwise. Ok, what's done is done. Can't change it no matter how badly we want too. We have Dex, we don't have Cody. We don't have a QB worth a squirt of piss. We don't have an o-line that is anything to speak of and we have one good RB who is broken and may not ever return to his old self and even if he did, he is not an every down back.

hopefully now the Chief Gods will bestow some sense upon our front office and they will figure it out, make some good draft choices though I don't expect all their picks to hit, get a new QB even if that means keeping Cassel or Orton for one more year to groom, though I'd just prefer to toss the rookie in and let him go, and get a NT and some lineman that will make a difference.

[aturnis]

The receivers didn't the last month.

Source? Haven't read that one anywhere yet...

[aturnis]

The bad move is hiring a coach and forcing him into a scheme he doesn't believe in, or limiting your coaching search to guys that only run the 34.

Hire the best coach, and let HIM dictate what scheme you run.

If that means a switch to the 43, so ****ing be it.

Hiring a less qualified coach just because he's willing to run a 34 is just as big a mistake.

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

[OnTheWarpath15]

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

FWIW, I'm not advocating one or the other.

I'm just sick of forcing schemes on coaches, or eliminating coaches based on scheme.

Hire the BEST coach.

[petegz28]

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

Yes but a good head coach is going to listen to his DC. And if the DC says the 3-4 is our best way to go then a good head coach is going to say ok and help draft or sign players to fit that role.

No good leader is going to come in and start dictating tactical decsions. That's what bad coaches do. A good head coach is going to come in with a strategy and tell his DC's to execute that strategy however they see the best way to do it.

A good head coach is going to say "I want an attacking defense", not "I want a 4-3 or a 3-4". However, before he even does that, a good head coach is going to evaluate his players and decide what the best strategy for that group should be. You can't say you want to be a ball-control offense if you don't have a big, powerful line. You can't say you want to be an attacking defense if you don't have the players to execute it.

Nonetheless, the coach should decide and dictate the strategy based on his evaluation of players and input from his coordinators. Nothing should be pre-meditated to a tactical level.

[aturnis]

Yes but a good head coach is going to listen to his DC. And if the DC says the 3-4 is our best way to go then a good head coach is going to say ok and help draft or sign players to fit that role.

No good leader is going to come in and start dictating tactical decsions. That's what bad coaches do. A good head coach is going to come in with a strategy and tell his DC's to execute that strategy however they see the best way to do it.

A good head coach is going to say "I want an attacking defense", not "I want a 4-3 or a 3-4". However, before he even does that, a good head coach is going to evaluate his players and decide what the best strategy for that group should be. You can't say you want to be a ball-control offense if you don't have a big, powerful line. You can't say you want to be an attacking defense if you don't have the players to execute it.

Nonetheless, the coach should decide and dictate the strategy based on his evaluation of players and input from his coordinators. Nothing should be pre-meditated to a tactical level.

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

Yep, most coaches would want to hire their own staff.

Which is exactly why a Pioli-puppet like Crennel, McD or Ferentz will get the job.

[petegz28]

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

I agree. But that doesn't make them a good head coach. A good head coach will always evaluate before he dictates. If the new coach brings in his own guys and long as they have had previous success then ok, that's how it goes. But to bring guys in at that level simply as a power play is not the sign of a good leader.

[petegz28]

Yep, most coaches would want to hire their own staff.

Which is exactly why a Pioli-puppet like Crennel, McD or Ferentz will get the job.

I mean, to a point we have seen this firsthand with Vermeil. He brought in Saunders. But we were replacing Jimmy "don't call me slim-jim" Rae so there was hardly anything to argue about there.

[chiefzilla1501]

Question....
Was moving to the 2-gap 3-4 a mistake? Or do we think there's a future here.

It seems to work incredibly well. But there seem to be games like Sunday where it's just off-the-charts bad. Is it exhaustion? Poor preparation? Did the Pats' 3-4 fail because they failed to get pass rushers?

Or are there teams who just have an answer to it? It does seem like our 3-4 can bully the shit out of a bad o-line in the pass rush, but we get absolutely swallowed up by good ones. Is that because we have too many linemen who aren't pass rushers?

[petegz28]

Question....
Was moving to the 2-gap 3-4 a mistake? Or do we think there's a future here.

It seems to work incredibly well. But there seem to be games like Sunday where it's just off-the-charts bad. Is it exhaustion? Poor preparation? Did the Pats' 3-4 fail because they failed to get pass rushers?

Or are there teams who just have an answer to it? It does seem like our 3-4 can bully the shit out of a bad o-line in the pass rush, but we get absolutely swallowed up by good ones. Is that because we have too many linemen who aren't pass rushers?

I think any defense can work if you have the right players for the scheme. Our problems this year stem from multiple problems.

1. Our training camp and pre-season would have made a good Yoga infomercial

2. We don't really have the players on the line to play a 3-4

3. We play too much coverage and not enough attack

4. The defense is on the field the majority of the game

5. When they started kicking ass Haley insisted on the Palko-led RRPP offense thus disheartening the defense making them question WTF they were playing so hard?

[aturnis]

Yep, most coaches would want to hire their own staff.

Which is exactly why a Pioli-puppet like Crennel, McD or Ferentz will get the job.

Ferentz would not be Pioli's puppet. Might he be willing to coach with a lot of the very good coaching staff that is here, including his old compadre Romeo? Sure. Ferentz would not come without complete control over his staff and probably a good bit of control in the player acquisition process.

[Hammock Parties]

I just realized this D is actually 15th in yards.

That's not horrible at all.

Anyone suggesting we need to blow up that side...no.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Ravens and Jets run a 2-gap 3-4?

[OnTheWarpath15]

I just realized this D is actually 15th in yards.

That's not horrible at all.

Anyone suggesting we need to blow up that side...no.

If only games were decided by yards and not points.

[petegz28]

I just realized this D is actually 15th in yards.

That's not horrible at all.

Anyone suggesting we need to blow up that side...no.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Ravens and Jets run a 2-gap 3-4?

I don't think we need to blow it up. I think we need to get some good D-lineman, particularly NT and attack a lot more. We are more successfull if we attack. Even against the Jets we stopped then 3 straight times after their opening drive and all the offense gave them for it was 3 points.

[aturnis]

The receivers didn't the last month.

Source? Haven't read that one anywhere yet...

[Ebolapox]

FWIW, I'm not advocating one or the other.

I'm just sick of forcing schemes on coaches, or eliminating coaches based on scheme.

Hire the BEST coach.

the best coach will scheme around your best players. have the personnel (aside from NT) for a good 3-4 defense? YOU FUCKING RUN THE 3-4 DEFENSE (maybe a bit more attacking, hopefully)

[Chiefs=Champions]

Anyone whos advocating going to the 4-3 is a moron. We have all the pieces in place, except a healthy safety and a young dominant nose tackle.

If youre worried about being handcuffed to a scheme, then hopefully the next coach we hire will be one who will look at the players we have and build a scheme based on them.

He would have to be Haley dumb, to swap to the 4-3.

[Chiefs=Champions]

This team is about 2 players away from being a perennial division winner.

1. QB


(Huge gap in importance)








2. Nose tackle.

Lets just hope to based god, that our next coach is willing to cut ties with Matt and draft one in the first.

[Hammock Parties]

If only games were decided by yards and not points.

Our ppg looks bad because of the offense, turnovers and the first two games.

[munkey]

This team is about 2 players away from being a perennial division winner.

1. QB


(Huge gap in importance)








2. Nose tackle.

Lets just hope to based god, that our next coach is willingly to cut ties with Matt and draft one in the first.

DING DING...we have a winna...

[HonestChieffan]

Ferentz would not be Pioli's puppet. Might he be willing to coach with a lot of the very good coaching staff that is here, including his old compadre Romeo? Sure. Ferentz would not come without complete control over his staff and probably a good bit of control in the player acquisition process.

I hope you are right. Some never been a NFL HC College guy making demands like he just won his third Super Bowl will get to stay in Iowa Freaking City and we wont be subject to another low ball experience builder program. God save us from that fate.

[NJChiefsFan]

I just realized this D is actually 15th in yards.

That's not horrible at all.

Anyone suggesting we need to blow up that side...no.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Ravens and Jets run a 2-gap 3-4?

We are a healthy Berry and NT away from being a really really good defense.

Hell, get a QB that can let the offense keep the ball and get Berry back and its a great defense IMO.

Its no secret to anybody that a QB and NT make this team serious contenders. Especially with the AFC not showing to be elite at the moment.

[Rasputin]

Letting Waters go was not a mistake.

Bringing back Wiegmann was.

[ChiefFripp]

I'm not sure why anyone would say drafting Mcluster was a mistake. HE is one of the few players who isn't going to give up ala Bowe.

[Hammock Parties]

I'm not sure why anyone would say drafting Mcluster was a mistake. HE is one of the few players who isn't going to give up ala Bowe.

Because he sucks and there were much better players available.