People that think pioli can do no wrong please listen to this.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=26&c=374&f=319261

['Hamas' Jenkins]

What do you think about Scott Pioli leaving?

"No big deal."

"He was really good at getting players that Bill Belichick wanted. Belichick gave him a grocery list."

Killshot.

[Psyko Tek]

What do you think about Scott Pioli leaving?

"No big deal."

"He was really good at getting players that Bill Belichick wanted. Belichick gave him a grocery list."

Killshot.

close thread

looks like the chiefs have fucked up again

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Man this guy is killing Pioli.

[threebag]

I hope eight fucking reindeer shit in his motherfucking stocking. Then on the way out of town when they hit the Cassel residence they flood his with piss.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

"The thing about Scott is that he only wants to win a championship one way, and if you're not doing it his way, there are no other options. He is so self-centered, so believing in his own hype, so unaware of the fact that Bill Belichick and Tom Brady played so much into what he did in NE that he thinks that every decision he is going to make is going to be the right one."

[Urc Burry]

Since Pioli's drafts have been terrible so far right? :hmmm:

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

"The thing about Scott is that he only wants to win a championship one way, and if you're not doing it his way, there are no other options. He is so self-centered, so believing in his own hype, so unaware of the fact that Bill Belichick and Tom Brady played so much into what he did in NE that he thinks that every decision he is going to make is going to be the right one."

Some scary shit.

[Bane]

Grocery getter?


Stay down bitch.

[Dante84]

So who is the guy claiming this?

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

So who is the guy claiming this?

Espn insider Jeff Chadiha worked at SI before espn

['Hamas' Jenkins]

"Scott Pioli makes this job a lot less attractive than what it is."

Is it a worse job than Miami and Jax:

"Working with Scott Pioli, yes."

Predicts McDumbass as the next coach.

Chadiha has worked for ESPN and SI. He's pretty legit.

[okcchief]

Who the fuck thinks Pioli can't do wrong? Please kill yourself if you exist.

[kysirsoze]

Espn insider Jeff Chadiha worked at SI before espn

So he's citing sources within the Pats organization?

[Bane]

Since Pioli's drafts have been terrible so far right? :hmmm:

How many current NFL players that he drafted are above average?

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

So he's citing sources within the Pats organization?

Yes

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

"Scott Pioli makes this job a lot less attractive than what it is."

Is it a worse job than Miami and Jax:

"Working with Scott Pioli, yes."

Predicts McDumbass as the next coach.

Chadiha has worked for ESPN and SI. He's pretty legit.

That should scare all chiefs fans.

[58kcfan89]

Assuming he's right about all this (I like Chadhia & have no reason to believe he's not), why in the hell was Pioli so highly touted as the best available guy for the GM job? And I don't just mean by analysts & fans, but football people seemed to love it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but whatever. The more I hear & read about Pioli, the more I think "FUCK YOU." I'll be 100% done with him if/when he does one of the following in the next 6 months or so:

A) Hires McDumbass in any capacity.
B) Drafts an OL in the 1st round.
C) Keeps Cassel as the only QB on the roster in 2012.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

We're fucked.

[Dante84]

Espn insider Jeff Chadiha worked at SI before espn

2:05

Jeff Chadiha says he was told 3 years ago, by someone [unnamed] who knows someone [unnamed] high up in the Patriots organization that....

"when he left, this person asked this person 'what do you think about Pioli leaving?.....etc..."

sweet source, bro.

[BossChief]

Anyone that thinks that Piolis last two drafts were bad, is a total morAn.

The guy fucked up on the Cassel trade, most of everything else he has done (player acquisition wise) has been pretty good.

This guy saying that he got the groceries that BB wanted needs to compare the drafts of NE and KC since Pioli has been gone.

KC has BLOWN THEM AWAY and its not even close.

[Dante84]

Yes

NO.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

It's too bad that so many people branded Whitlock as the Boy Who Cried "Wolf", because you can't say we weren't warned.

[Bane]

Assuming he's right about all this (I like Chadhia & have no reason to believe he's not), why in the hell was Pioli so highly touted as the best available guy for the GM job? And I don't just mean by analysts, but football people seemed to love it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but whatever. The more I hear & read about Pioli, the more I think "**** YOU." I'll be 100% done with him if/when he does one of the following in the next 6 months or so:

A) Hires McDumbass in any capacity.
B) Drafts an OL in the 1st round.
C) Keeps Cassel as the only QB on the roster in 2012.

Any 1 of those 3 should be grounds for immediate termination.

[blaise]

Are many people saying he can do no wrong?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

2:05

Jeff Chadiha says he was told 3 years ago, by someone [unnamed] who knows someone [unnamed] high up in the Patriots organization that....

"when he left, this person asked this person 'what do you think about Pioli leaving?.....etc..."

sweet source, bro.

We've got a journalism major here, gents.

[Urc Burry]

How many current NFL players that he drafted are above average?

Considering they are all rookies to third year players

Berry
Moeaki
Arenas
Tyson Jackson has been playing well
Kendrick Lewis is a starter in the league as a 5th rounder

J Baldwin, Houston, Asamoah, Hudson, and Bailey have all showed a lot of promise but like I said its too early to tell

[Dante84]

So he's citing sources within the Pats organization?

he's citing sources who cite soures withing the Pats organization.

[58kcfan89]

[/B]

Any 1 of those 3 should be grounds for immediate termonation.

And how many of those are fairly likely?

...

My point exactly.

[Dante84]

We've got a journalism major here, gents.

nope, someone who thinks its retarded to post a thread saying this is fact, when in fact, its a third hand story.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

nope, someone who thinks its retarded to post a thread saying this is fact, when in fact, its a third hand story.

Pioli lover here.

[threebag]

Forget termination I am thinking firing squad.

[Bane]

Considering they are all rookies to third year players

Berry
Moeaki
Arenas
Tyson Jackson has been playing well
Kendrick Lewis is a starter in the league as a 5th rounder

J Baldwin, Houston, Asamoah, Hudson, and Bailey have all showed a lot of promise but like I said its too early to tell

2 aren't currently playing in the NFL and Tyson Jackson is a ****ing joke.All of the rest are still big ??? in my opinion.

[Dante84]

Pioli lover here.

not at all.

Just not jerking off on twitter throwing shit against the wall.


Pioli needs to fix shit or gtfo.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

not at all.

Just not jerking off on twitter throwing shit against the wall.


Pioli needs to fix shit or gtfo.

Why would Jeff Lie?

[Dante84]

Why would Jeff Lie?

didnt say he was lying.

Said his source sucks. He's playing telephone.

Take it with a grain of salt.

[Brock]

Pioli lover here.

Idiot there.

[Urc Burry]

2 aren't currently playing in the NFL and Tyson Jackson is a ****ing joke.All of the rest are still big ??? in my opinion.

So? All gm's miss on some picks. Our's doesn't very often. Tyson Jacksn was a reach but hes not a bust by any means..that'09 draft class was dreadful

[Sassy Squatch]

OMG YOURTFBBQT$BG BNT^NNMUNM^&

[Bane]

So? All gm's miss on some picks. Our's doesn't very often. Tyson Jacksn was a reach but hes not a bust by any means..that'09 draft class was dreadful

I'm looking at it as total number of draft pics vs how many good pics so far.I'm not impressed at all with his decisions thus far.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Anyone that thinks that Piolis last two drafts were bad, is a total morAn.

The guy fucked up on the Cassel trade, most of everything else he has done (player acquisition wise) has been pretty good.

This guy saying that he got the groceries that BB wanted needs to compare the drafts of NE and KC since Pioli has been gone.

KC has BLOWN THEM AWAY and its not even close.

I guess we missed the 2009 offseason and pretty much all of the 2010 draft that wasn't Eric Berry.

[Brock]

Considering 2009 was a complete disaster, he couldn't help but get better.

[Munson]

I was pretty excited when Pioli was hired 3 years ago. Finally the Chiefs had a GM that can put his ego aside and get the players/personnel we need to win. But its becoming more apparent that he's not much different than King Carl. Pioli has gotten a lot of bad press lately when it comes to that ego and poor decision making. The more I hear, the more I hate him.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

didnt say he was lying.

Said his source sucks. He's playing telephone.

Take it with a grain of salt.

He's a journalist, not a columnist. He has to protect his sources, and went to multiple efforts stressing that he was doing that in that very interview.

[Dante84]

He's a journalist, not a columnist. He has to protect his sources, and went to multiple efforts stressing that he was doing that in that very interview.

Fine. His source was third hand. I thought people reading the thread should know that when forming their opinions.

Especially since the OP presented it as if it were straight from the source himself.

[Epic Fail 007]

Suddenly Carl dose not look so bad hmmmmmmmmm

[kysirsoze]

Suddenly Carl dose not look so bad hmmmmmmmmm

Yes he does, idiot.

[Brock]

Suddenly Carl dose not look so bad hmmmmmmmmm

as good as 20 years and 3 playoff wins can look, I guess.

Dumbbell.

[Bane]

Suddenly Carl dose not look so bad hmmmmmmmmm
Go fuck yourself.

[BossChief]

[/B]

Any 1 of those 3 should be grounds for immediate termination.
yup
I guess we missed the 2009 offseason and pretty much all of the 2010 draft that wasn't Eric Berry.
2009 was a joke, no doubt.

Only having Tyson Jackson, Matt Cassel, Jovan Belcher and Ryan Succop from a draft where we picked at 3 and had a buttload of cash to spend is embarrassing, but first impressions aren't everything.

The 2010 draft was damn good, though and to act as if it isnt is just being a hater, sorry.

Berry
Asamoah
Arenas
Moeaki
Lewis

ANY draft where you hit on half or more of your picks is a damn good one, a draft where you hit on almost every pick (and all of them are team leaders) is fucking outstanding.

If you disagree with that statement, its time to reevaluate what you consider a good draft because in reality, hitting on 3 players in a draft is good and more than that makes it better and better and better.

I know its early and the lacking offseason plays a role in this, but I think a few years from now the 2011 draft will end up being the best one we've had in decades.

Baldwin, Hudson, Houston and Bailey are already flashing the ability to be game changers and I think Powe and Stanzi will be really good players in the future (once they actually get a chance to play)

[Mr. Kotter]

He's a journalist, not a columnist. He has to protect his sources, and went to multiple efforts stressing that he was doing that in that very interview.

Come on, Hamas....that's a cop-out. Either say it and own it, or STFU. Seriously.

[-King-]

ROFL ChiefsandOsfan has gone into full hater mode since that pussy Haley got fired. Who on this board has says that pioli could do no wrong? 2009 was about as wrong as a GM can do.
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

Arenas and Moeaki aren't hits.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

How do Arenas and Moeaki count as hits? I wouldn't count them as outright whiffs, but methinks you're being too generous.

[Dante84]

Arenas and Moeaki aren't hits.

I disagree.

Moeaki let the team in receptions his rookie year, and had arguably the catch of the year. He got hurt. So do lots of guys. Good production from a 4th round pick. Sucks about his acl.

Javi was taken too early. But, he's a solid nickel and leads the league in avg. return yards.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Come on, Hamas....that's a cop-out. Either say it and own it, or STFU. Seriously.

LMAO...he has to protect his sources dude.

[Dante84]

LMAO...he has to protect his sources dude.

Agreed - and I wasn't hating on JC for that. Just saying, the OP kicked the door in and flopped his dick out like it was big news, when, really, it was a guy saying he knows a guy who knows a guy.

[Dante84]

Yahoo news does that sensationalism shit and it pisses me off.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I disagree.

Moeaki let the team in receptions his rookie year, and had arguably the catch of the year. He got hurt. So do lots of guys. Good production from a 4th round pick. Sucks about his acl.

Javi was taken too early. But, he's a solid nickel and leads the league in avg. return yards.

Did Bowe's first 40 catches of the year not count under some provision?

[DeezNutz]

I disagree.

Moeaki let the team in receptions his rookie year, and had arguably the catch of the year. He got hurt. So do lots of guys. Good production from a 4th round pick. Sucks about his acl.

Javi was taken too early. But, he's a solid nickel and leads the league in avg. return yards.

The fact that Arenas was taken too early obviates any positives about the pick itself.

Again, Pioli wanted a TE, right? You can't pass on Gronk and Graham and consider Brokaki a hit. And lots of people get injured. True. But not everyone has Brokaki's injury history.

[Dante84]

The fact that Arenas was taken too early obviates any positives about the pick itself.

Again, Pioli wanted a TE, right? You can't pass on Gronk and Graham and consider Brokaki a hit. And lots of people get injured. True. But not everyone has Brokaki's injury history.

Wasnt Gronk a first or second rounder though? Yeah worth it now... but can you imagine that shit storm on draft day? LMAO

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

<a href="http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/torchredunit/?action=view&amp;current=puppetmaster-3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/torchredunit/puppetmaster-3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[DeezNutz]

Wasnt Gronk a first or second rounder though? Yeah worth it now... but can you imagine that shit storm on draft day? LMAO

Second rounder, after McClusterfuck.

You're absolutely right that people would have been pissed. But it's Pioli's job to know more than message board douches such as ourselves. Collectively, CP would have out-drafted Scott Pioli to this point.

[Titty Meat]

Gonk had serious back issues there was some question if he'd be able to play again.

[Hammock Parties]

Arenas and Moeaki aren't hits.

Arenas is a very good nickel corner. Is that worth a late 2nd?

Moeaki has one chance to stay healthy to prove he's a good pick IMO

[Dante84]

Did Bowe's first 40 catches of the year not count under some provision?

ah, you are right.

I blame my mistake on Matt Cassel.

[Urc Burry]

Arenas is one of the best nickel corners in the league, and top 6 or so in punt returns...thats a hit.
Moeaki's rookie season was just under Gronk's and above Jimmy Graham...He can be a star

[chiefzilla1501]

The fact that Arenas was taken too early obviates any positives about the pick itself.

Again, Pioli wanted a TE, right? You can't pass on Gronk and Graham and consider Brokaki a hit. And lots of people get injured. True. But not everyone has Brokaki's injury history.

I hate this game. Was moeaki the best te pick. Looking like no. Was he a bad pick? Absolutely not.

Do I regret having arenas on the team? Absolutely not. Do I think he's valuable? In a passing league, absolutely.

I hate pioli as much as the next guy. But let's not get ridiculous about criticizing good picks because they weren't knockout picks. The last two drafts will likely end up being solid. Not spectacular. But solid.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I hate this game. Was moeaki the best te pick. Looking like no. Was he a bad pick? Absolutely not.

Do I regret having arenas on the team? Absolutely not. Do I think he's valuable? In a passing league, absolutely.

I hate pioli as much as the next guy. But let's not get ridiculous about criticizing good picks because they weren't knockout picks. The last two drafts will likely end up being solid. Not spectacular. But solid.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that analysis. The problem stems from multiple people claiming that 2010 was a spectacular draft. Spectacularly overrated, yes.

[Titty Meat]

Arenas is a very good nickel corner. Is that worth a late 2nd?

Moeaki has one chance to stay healthy to prove he's a good pick IMO

Not at all. People viewed the Gonzalez trade as a steal but had you said we'd be getting a slow nickel corner in return they would have been furious.

[BossChief]

Arenas and Moeaki aren't hits.
I am gonna go ahead and leave the Moeaki one alone because of my bias, but Arenas in the late 2nd and the way he has played means he was a good pick.

Could we have possibly done better? sure, you can always do better, but if you get a solid player at the end of the 2nd round, its not a bad pick.
How do Arenas and Moeaki count as hits? I wouldn't count them as outright whiffs, but methinks you're being too generous.
see above response

[Hammock Parties]

"I've heard people say that Scott Pioli said Josh McDaniels' time in Denver is comparable to Bill Belichick's time in Cleveland."

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that analysis. The problem stems from multiple people claiming that 2010 was a spectacular draft. Spectacularly overrated, yes.

Spectacular? No. But we got 4 quality starters in Asamoah, berry, moeaki, and Lewis. And arenas might as well be considered a starter. That's 5 important players. Not as good as the 2008 draft, but I'm very happy with it.

[Hammock Parties]

Not at all. People viewed the Gonzalez trade as a steal but had you said we'd be getting a slow nickel corner in return they would have been furious.

Because GMs should be expected to land future HOFers in the second round.

[Titty Meat]

Because GMs should be expected to land future HOFers in the second round.

No, GM's should choose nickel corners over defensive linemen and pass rushers LMAO You only set the bar low if it's BossChief and you want to be involved in the front office bukkake at Arrowhead.

[Brock]

"I've heard people say that Scott Pioli said Josh McDaniels' time in Denver is comparable to Bill Belichick's time in Denver."

I don't even remember Bill Belichick's time in Denver. Must not have been good.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't even remember Bill Belichick's time in Denver. Must not have been good.

Sorry, meant Cleveland.

Scary if true.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Spectacular? No. But we got 4 quality starters in Asamoah, berry, moeaki, and Lewis. And arenas might as well be considered a starter. That's 5 important players. Not as good as the 2008 draft, but I'm very happy with it.

I would not consider Lewis a quality starter, but that's semantics. Moeaki can be a very good starter, but not if he misses over half of his games.

[chiefzilla1501]

No, GM's should choose nickel corners over defensive linemen and pass rushers LMAO You only set the bar low if it's BossChief and you want to be involved in the front office bukkake at Arrowhead.

You're reaching for straws if you're going to get upset over this pick. We could have gotten a better player but I'm very happy we have arenas and he is an important player.

[Rasputin]

We're ****ed.

Not looking good. Fuck Piolis and his Patriot way.

[Brock]

You're reaching for straws if you're going to get upset over this pick. We could have gotten a better player but I'm very happy we have arenas and he is an important player.

You're very happy we have Arenas? He's literally Anyplayer.

[BossChief]

If anyone here thinks that the 2010 draft wasnt a homerun, show me a few drafts where teams got 4 or 5 starters out of one draft class.

Ill be waiting right here.

[Brock]

Starting for this team doesn't mean good.

[chiefzilla1501]

You're very happy we have Arenas? He's literally Anyplayer.

That's total bullshit. This is a pass happy league. He's not returning punts in a lot of games because he's playing a ton of snaps. And in spread out offenses, he's often covering the #1 or #2 receiver on a defense that doesn't get much pass rush.

Hes a very good nickel corner. And as a punt returner, he's one of the better ones in the game.

He's a very good role player. At the bottom of the second round, he's playing enough of a role to justify that pick.

[Titty Meat]

You're reaching for straws if you're going to get upset over this pick. We could have gotten a better player but I'm very happy we have arenas and he is an important player.

I've stated this before but the guy can't play outside and he really isn't a threat to run it back for a touchdown. With all the contact he makes his career as a punt/kick returner shouldn't be long. I thought Brandon Banks who wasn't even drafted was a much better option and Travis Daniels would be just as good as Arenas and he can play outside too.

[Rasputin]

If anyone here thinks that the 2010 draft wasnt a homerun, show me a few drafts where teams got 4 or 5 starters out of one draft class.

Ill be waiting right here.

We had a great draft in 2010 and the 2011 draft is looking good as well. Does not excuse his hire for Todd Haley and our record this year.

[Urc Burry]

If anyone here thinks that the 2010 draft wasnt a homerun, show me a few drafts where teams got 4 or 5 starters out of one draft class.

Ill be waiting right here.

Better yet 5 teams that have had a better combined '10 and '11 drafts

[chiefzilla1501]

Starting for this team doesn't mean good.

Berry and Asamoah are already good. Lewis is decent. Moeaki, when healthy, is very good. arenas is a very important contributor. Even mccluster, while not worth the pick, can potentially be at least a contributor.

It was a really solid draft no matter how much we hate pioli.

[Titty Meat]

If anyone here thinks that the 2010 draft wasnt a homerun, show me a few drafts where teams got 4 or 5 starters out of one draft class.

Ill be waiting right here.

Off the top of my head

2005 Chargers
2008 Falcons
2005 Cowboys
2003 Patriots
2008 Chiefs

[Urc Burry]

That's total bullshit. This is a pass happy league. He's not returning punts in a lot of games because he's playing a ton of snaps. And in spread out offenses, he's often covering the #1 or #2 receiver on a defense that doesn't get much pass rush.

Hes a very good nickel corner. And as a punt returner, he's one of the better ones in the game.

He's a very good role player. At the bottom of the second round, he's playing enough of a role to justify that pick.

Didnt Arenas shut down Welker a few weeks ago?

[Brock]

That's total bullshit. This is a pass happy league. He's not returning punts in a lot of games because he's playing a ton of snaps. And in spread out offenses, he's often covering the #1 or #2 receiver on a defense that doesn't get much pass rush.

Hes a very good nickel corner. And as a punt returner, he's one of the better ones in the game.

He's a very good role player. At the bottom of the second round, he's playing enough of a role to justify that pick.

God. Such homer bullshit.

[Hammock Parties]

He's right that Arenas IS a very good nickel corner and good punt returner.

He's just not much of a playmaker.

[Titty Meat]

Dunlap, Lee, Cody, Spikes, Angerer, Decker, Graham > Arenas

[-King-]

Better yet 5 teams that have had a better combined '10 and '11 drafts

I'd like to see this also.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Chiefnj2]

You're very happy we have Arenas? He's literally Anyplayer.

I didn't like the pick at the time. Thought it was a bad value. This year the guy has turned it on. He's been a really good nickle back all year. I don't think he's allowed a single TD. That might change this weekend, but its pretty impressive nonetheless. In a pass happy league you need to be three deep at CB.

And for those people saying Lewis is a starter, but isn't a quality starter - he's a 5th round pick. People need to put picks into perspective.

[Titty Meat]

You can determine after a year or 2 who's had the better draft?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The Arenas pick has been better than the credit I gave it at the time, but it's still not the home run it's often claimed as.

[chiefzilla1501]

Dunlap, Lee, Cody, Spikes, Angerer, Decker, Graham > Arenas

So what? Only in kc would people bitch about a good pick because it wasn't perfect.

It wasn't the best pick. But given his role and that he's played exceptional in both of his roles, it justifies where he was picked.

[BossChief]

Second rounder, after McClusterfuck.

You're absolutely right that people would have been pissed. But it's Pioli's job to know more than message board douches such as ourselves. Collectively, CP would have out-drafted Scott Pioli to this point.

Off the top of my head

2005 Chargers
2008 Falcons
2005 Cowboys
2003 Patriots
2008 Chiefs
*05 chargers still had picks left form the Eli/rivers trade including an extra 1st rounder

*08 falcons had 2 firsts and like 18 3rd round picks to work with

*the 08 Chiefs traded Jared for an extra first and two extra thirds

*The 2005 cowboys had 2 firsts due to trades

*the 2003 patriots draft was done by Pioli and was the only one you listed that was a good draft on its own merits without having to give up other players to make it appear better.

Maybe I should have prefaced that with "teams that didnt trade future picks for picks that year arent counted, or the players that were drafted from the extra picks should be excluded.

The 2010 draft of ours was damn good.

To say otherwise is not realistic.

[Okie_Apparition]

Fuck Whitlock, his act was stale
Even if Pioli is Carl with less access

[Dexter Manley]

w.stationcaster.cm/player_skinned.php?s=26&c=374&f=319261


That's pretty funny. I posted similar comments this morning in the Pioli bandwagon thread, page 5...

[Hammock Parties]

The 2010 draft of ours was damn good.

To say otherwise is not realistic.

It's only damn good if:

Berry comes back from his knee injury
Moeaki comes back from his knee injury
Asamoah develops
Arenas continues playing well
Lewis' awful season this year was a fluke.

It's still very much in question. Berry and Moeaki absolutely BOTH must recover for the draft to be considered a plus draft.

[BossChief]

Carl Peterson NEVER had a draft as good as either 10 or 11s Pioli drafts.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

2010 Chiefs had 10 picks.

[chiefzilla1501]

Carl Peterson NEVER had a draft as good as either 10 or 11s Pioli drafts.

2008 was a hell of a lot better. That is our teAm right there.

[BossChief]

It's only damn good if:

Berry comes back from his knee injury
Moeaki comes back from his knee injury
Asamoah develops
Arenas continues playing well
Lewis' awful season this year was a fluke.

It's still very much in question. Berry and Moeaki absolutely BOTH must recover for the draft to be considered a plus draft.

this is a fair post, for the most part.

[Chiefnj2]

It's only damn good if:

Berry comes back from his knee injury
Moeaki comes back from his knee injury
Asamoah develops
Arenas continues playing well
Lewis' awful season this year was a fluke.

It's still very much in question. Berry and Moeaki absolutely BOTH must recover for the draft to be considered a plus draft.

If Berry can't come back, it's bad luck. It doesn't mean Pioli blew the pick.

[Titty Meat]

*05 chargers still had picks left form the Eli/rivers trade including an extra 1st rounder

*08 falcons had 2 firsts and like 18 3rd round picks to work with

*the 08 Chiefs traded Jared for an extra first and two extra thirds

*The 2005 cowboys had 2 firsts due to trades

*the 2003 patriots draft was done by Pioli and was the only one you listed that was a good draft on its own merits without having to give up other players to make it appear better.

Maybe I should have prefaced that with "teams that didnt trade future picks for picks that year arent counted, or the players that were drafted from the extra picks should be excluded.

The 2010 draft of ours was damn good.

To say otherwise is not realistic.

I'm not saying it wasn't good it was despite the 2nd round selections. If Eric Berry doesn't come back though it's pretty damn average if not below.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Carl Peterson NEVER had a draft as good as either 10 or 11s Pioli drafts.

That's just demonstrably false.

[BossChief]

2008 was a hell of a lot better. That is our teAm right there.Jared Allen got us Albert and Charles, dont forget that.

Also, that was NOT Carl Petersons draft.

That is well documented.

2010 Chiefs had 10 picks.

So, we have to take out Arenas.

Nevertheless, the combined talent pool that was taken out of the 2010 and 2011 drafts was nothing short of great.

Fair enough?

[BossChief]

That's just demonstrably false.

its one thing to call it wrong, it another to show why the statement is false.

Show me.

Which draft of his was better?

...and please, dont come here and say 2008 when you know damn well he didnt run that draft.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

its one thing to call it wrong, it another to show why the statement is false.

Show me.

Which draft of his was better?

...and please, dont come here and say 2008 when you know damn well he didnt run that draft.

There's pretty good evidence that Carl didn't really run any draft. He gave his HC carte blanche with rare exception. But given that he was the one with final say, you either need to give him credit for 2008, or you can't give him any criticism for the other 20 years, because those weren't "his" picks, save LJ.

You can't have it both ways.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Jared Allen got us Albert and Charles, dont forget that.

Also, that was NOT Carl Petersons draft.

That is well documented.



So, we have to take out Arenas.

Nevertheless, the combined talent pool that was taken out of the 2010 and 2011 drafts was nothing short of great.

Fair enough?

You'd also need to take out Lewis and Moeaki.

[Hammock Parties]

If Berry can't come back, it's bad luck. It doesn't mean Pioli blew the pick.

You wouldn't blame Pioli, but you wouldn't call it a good draft, either.

[Mr. Laz]

I hope the warden starts taking away internet privileges.

[Bewbies]

People that bitches if you don't hit on every pick are retarded. The GM for the Packers was quoted by Peter King saying if you hit on 1 of 3 picks you are killing it.

Pioli's problem is his Patriot Way bullshit, not his last 2 drafts.

[FAX]

Holy Pioli!!!

Vilified. It was interesting to hear the radio guys take up for Dr. Evil in the beginning. Chadiha didn't go with that flow, though.

Man, oh man. I hope he's wrong about all that stuff. It appears there are some guys out there including Jeff, KJ, Whittles and others who haven't exactly bought into the Dr. Evil mystique.

FAX

[bricks]

Carl Peterson NEVER had a draft as good as either 10 or 11s Pioli drafts.

I think the 1996 draft was one of his best...He got 4, If Im not mistaken, 5 good players out of that draft.

Woods
Tongue
Browning
D. Edwards
Joe horn (Who they later traded was picked in the fifth round)

*That was one of the best Chiefs drafts I had seen.

[FAX]

You're very happy we have Arenas? He's literally Anyplayer.

I don't know ... Arenas has skills. I'm not sure if they've been using him correctly.

If I were Romeo, I'd blitz him twice a game and three times on Sunday.

Then again, if I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning.

FAX

[Urc Burry]

People that bitches if you don't hit on every pick are retarded. The GM for the Packers was quoted by Peter King saying if you hit on 1 of 3 picks you are killing it.

Pioli's problem is his Patriot Way bullshit, not his last 2 drafts.

Exactly. If he drafts a QB first round he'll go back to being a God here

[milkman]

There's pretty good evidence that Carl didn't really run any draft. He gave his HC carte blanche with rare exception. But given that he was the one with final say, you either need to give him credit for 2008, or you can't give him any criticism for the other 20 years, because those weren't "his" picks, save LJ.

You can't have it both ways.

Carl did have final say over the drafts prior to that '08 draft.

But all indications are that Clark Hunt neutered him for that '08 draft though, and Bill Kuharich was calling the shots.

[bricks]

People that bitches if you don't hit on every pick are retarded. The GM for the Packers was quoted by Peter King saying if you hit on 1 of 3 picks you are killing it.

Pioli's problem is his Patriot Way bullshit, not his last 2 drafts.

People need to understand that you can't hit on every pick. It's impossible. Even the best of them screw up from time to time.

Pioli's drafts have been pretty good. His biggest mistake was trading for Cassel. And taking Tyson Jackson with the third overall pick. Jackson has been improving which is good but at #3 overall they could of got more value than taking a 3-4 DE. Thats a position they should of addressed in rounds 3 or 4 in the draft.

I don't get this whole Patriot way thingy...yada yada it's a whole bunch of bologny. The bottomline is, they got lucky w/ Brady. You get a franchise player like that, you could pretty much say anything you want. If the Chiefs get a player like that, people wouldn't argue as much about Pioli's miscues. They would love the guy. It's amazing how one franchise player makes everything.

[Dave Lane]

"The thing about Scott is that he only wants to win a championship one way, and if you're not doing it his way, there are no other options. He is so self-centered, so believing in his own hype, so unaware of the fact that Bill Belichick and Tom Brady played so much into what he did in NE that he thinks that every decision he is going to make is going to be the right one."

Yep Haley was a nail that stuck up so he hammered him. I think he set him up to fail this whole year.

[Dave Lane]

Carl did have final say over the drafts prior to that '08 draft.

But all indications are that Clark Hunt neutered him for that '08 draft though, and Bill Kuharich was calling the shots.

And speaking of nails Milk nails it.

[DeezNutz]

its one thing to call it wrong, it another to show why the statement is false.

Show me.

Which draft of his was better?

...and please, dont come here and say 2008 when you know damn well he didnt run that draft.

DT.

[ChiefsCountry]

*the 2003 patriots draft was done by Pioli and was the only one you listed that was a good draft on its own merits without having to give up other players to make it appear better.


cough Drew Bledsoe trade cough

[Chief Roundup]

It's only damn good if:

Berry comes back from his knee injury
Moeaki comes back from his knee injury
Asamoah develops
Arenas continues playing well
Lewis' awful season this year was a fluke.

It's still very much in question. Berry and Moeaki absolutely BOTH must recover for the draft to be considered a plus draft.

So if we were to trade up (affordably) and draft Luck, then Luck gets injured and can't play anymore it would be considered a bad pick? That is pretty unfair. Injuries should not be held against a GM....unless player has injury concerns coming in like Moeaki.

[Fritz88]

Pioli can draft well. He is just a stingy and a stubborn cum muncher.

It doesn't matter how well you draft if you are going to hire puppets as your coaches.

It is even worse if you shit the bed in the most important player in your team and that is your QB.
Posted via Mobile Device

[FAX]

ROFL

What a friggin' mess.

It just proves that you have to be really careful what you wish for in life. From King Carl to Dr. Evil in three measly years.

FAX

[DeezNutz]

ROFL

What a friggin' mess.

It just proves that you have to be really careful what you wish for in life. From King Carl to Dr. Evil in three measly years.

FAX

I'm only surprised that we didn't have to trade a first to acquire Pioli.

[FAX]

I'm only surprised that we didn't have to trade a first to acquire Pioli.

True. But, man oh, man.

According to this Jeff, McDaniels is a lock which means Cassel is likely going to stay. I mean, it's like a dadgummed Twilight Zone episode ... like the one where Karl Malden can change his face and pretend to be other guys in order to get rich but winds up getting killed instead because he changes his face into a guy who is the target of a mob hit contract and stuff.

It's like we changed faces thinking it would be super cool and things just got even worser than ever before it was.

FAX

[Smed1065]

Only good thing now is watching someone twist and turn.........

Christmas does roast nuts.......

[Chief_For_Life58]

Forget termination I am thinking firing squad.

yes

[okcchief]

A few years ago I was destroying a Donkey fan friend of mine for McDaniels picking Tebow. Now Tebow can't fucking lose despite looking like shit and McDaniels is coming to the Chiefs? FML! We are stuck in purgatory.

[BossChief]

DT.

That was a bigger no brainer pick than Berry.

DT was quite possibly the best college pass rusher ...EVER

Would you trade:

Berry
Asamoah
Lewis
Moeaki
Arenas
Dexter

for DT (because thats all we got out of that draft...nothing else)

?

Id rather have our 2010 draft, but I can also understand why someone would disagree with that.

[Bewbies]

People need to understand that you can't hit on every pick. It's impossible. Even the best of them screw up from time to time.

Pioli's drafts have been pretty good. His biggest mistake was trading for Cassel. And taking Tyson Jackson with the third overall pick. Jackson has been improving which is good but at #3 overall they could of got more value than taking a 3-4 DE. Thats a position they should of addressed in rounds 3 or 4 in the draft.

I don't get this whole Patriot way thingy...yada yada it's a whole bunch of bologny. The bottomline is, they got lucky w/ Brady. You get a franchise player like that, you could pretty much say anything you want. If the Chiefs get a player like that, people wouldn't argue as much about Pioli's miscues. They would love the guy. It's amazing how one franchise player makes everything.

Yep, 2009 was horrendous. Everything he did was bad. BUT, even that's not as bad as cramming his one way system into everything and trying to do exactly what they did in New England without Tom Brady. That is absolutely retarded.

[Bewbies]

Exactly. If he drafts a QB first round he'll go back to being a God here

He would win a lot of points with a lot of people by drafting a QB in the 1st. If he hits on that pick he will go back to genius status. But that's the case for any GM. When you have a stud at QB that will cover pretty much all of your other mistakes.

[FAX]

A few years ago I was destroying a Donkey fan friend of mine for McDaniels picking Tebow. Now Tebow can't ****ing lose despite looking like shit and McDaniels is coming to the Chiefs? FML! We are stuck in purgatory.

Surely, we are cursed.

We need an exorcist in the worst way.

FAX

[crazycoffey]

People that think pioli can do no wrong please listen to this


First, are you talking to his Momma and maybe his Daddy?

Second, learn some grammar, it's disgusting to look at your thread title. Well, at least to some people. I personally don't care, but to look out on your behalf or in some "adopt a n00b" sense, your title would be closer to perfect like this (perfect if Donger has nothing to add that is);


To the people that think Pioli can do no wrong; please listen to this interview.

Then to further satisfy the non-media player crowd, a play-by-play printout of the dialog would be greatly appreciated.

I shouldn't forget the copyright crowd that wants links and sources, before they click on a possibly unknown link by an unknown person.

And finally the Pervert Crowd that would appreciate the not too hidden link to a hottie barely wearing any clothing at all. We call this the "PC" crowd. Not quite taking off the way we originally thought it would.

If you can make your next thread before the end of the year and following these extra steps, remember; thread starting privileges are not a right, they are a responsibility! I can almost guarantee you will get my n00b(sp?) or my N(x)(x)b of 2011 vote and a perma-ban from my ignore list.

[aturnis]

Arenas and Moeaki aren't hits.

Duh.

[Bugeater]

"I've heard people say that Scott Pioli said Josh McDaniels' time in Denver is comparable to Bill Belichick's time in Cleveland."
Well those people would be fucking morons. Belichick dealt with one of the worst situations that a sports franchise could ever face, he didn't run a decent team into the fucking ground like McDaniels did.

[lcarus]

I hope eight ****ing reindeer shit in his mother****ing stocking. Then on the way out of town when they hit the Cassel residence they flood his with piss.

If Clark Hunt manages this, he should win owner of the year in my book. He certainly has the money to buy some reindeer and feed them roast beef sandwiches laced with laxatives.

[lcarus]

Surely, we are cursed.

We need an exorcist in the worst way.

FAX

At least this particular curse allows us to be good on one side of the ball, only for the other side to be an absolute circus of awfulness. Yep, this curse loves to give us some kind of hope.

[007]

Well those people would be ****ing morons. Belichick dealt with one of the worst situations that a sports franchise could ever face, he didn't run a decent team into the ****ing ground like McDaniels did.

This is Chiefsplanet man. Stop making sense.

[|Zach|]

People that think pioli can do no wrong please read my straw man argument thread.

[Dexter Manley]

This year's TFG beef with Pioli... you can't whiff Sat-undrafted...


UNDRAFTEDS...
Weslye Saunders te now with Steelers
Willie Smith OT now playing/kinda starting OLT with Wash
Ray Dominguez and Sampson Genus - interior OL backups with GB (Genus on PS) looked extremely good in PS
Will Yeatman TE now with Fins
Corbin Bryant 3-4 DE - Steelers PS - played one game
Cedric Thornton DL - just called up by Eagles
Guy Miller - still unrestricted DT/NG - I thought the kid was outstanding at Colorado St., was 3rd string NG in Houston in preseason, should be brought in now for a tryout
Graig Cooper RB/WR/RS - don't understand why he isn't at least on a PS somewhere

Late Rounders...

Jacquian Williams - "cover backer" - NYG - end of round 6
Denarius Moore WR Raiders - late 5th
Pernell McPhee - DL Ravens - late 5th

The archives might notice that banned poster LaDairis liked all the above before last year's Draft...

[FAX]

People that think pioli can do no wrong please read my straw man argument thread.

I look and look and look, but I can find no such thread, Mr. |Zach|.

Does this thread have a name?

FAX

[scho63]

Wow! He brought a blow torch to a knife fight!

If this is true.....we're f*cked once again!

[BoneKrusher]

Surely, we are cursed.


FAX

ain't that the truth.

man o man.

[scho63]

Here is another great interview from Sports Radio 810 with Michael Lombardi-very insightful

http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=26&c=374&f=319261

He said that he recommended Bill Bellichek to the Chiefs! Carl Peterson tried to bring him in for an interview. Then Chiefs stiffed him and didn't pay for his advice

[threebag]

I look and look and look, but I can find no such thread, Mr. |Zach|.

Does this thread have a name?

FAX

Felching preferences

[Dexter Manley]

Here is another great interview from Sports Radio 810 with Michael Lombardi-very insightful

]

He said that he recommended Bill Bellichek to the Chiefs! Carl Peterson tried to bring him in for an interview. Then Chiefs stiffed him and didn't pay for his advice


Bringing in Bellichick with Carl would truly have been a case of too many Chiefs and too few Indians...

[Chiefnj2]

Why do people on Chiefs Planet seem to take delight in the failures of the GM and rumors that he can't possibly get any better?

[beach tribe]

Every GM makes mistakes. Pioli is no exception.
Do I still want him to be the GM of the Chiefs? Yes.
If not for the injuries we would be coming along nicely.
I have always believed, and still do, that he is going to take a QB in the first when the right opportunity comes along, because I know it's what Clark wants, and Clark will get what he wants.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Why do people on Chiefs Planet seem to take delight in the failures of the GM and rumors that he can't possibly get any better?

According to most here, he was God's Gift to the NFL before even coming to KC.

I don't think anyone is taking delight in his failures. People are sick of this team being an afterthought, and sick of a fanbase that bends over backwards to rationalize poor decisions.

[Dexter Manley]

"that he is going to take a QB in the first when the right opportunity comes along"

You "know" this...

even though the best pick he (really Bill B) made was a QB in round 6???

[OnTheWarpath15]

I do find it funny that people have already deemed the 2010 and 2011 drafts a success, considering many of those folks were the ones screaming, "you have to give a draft class 3 years" back in 2009.

[Dexter Manley]

"I don't think anyone is taking delight in his failures."


Analyzing failure is the first step towards avoiding it in the future...

[Dexter Manley]

I do find it funny that people have already deemed the 2010 and 2011 drafts a success, considering many of those folks were the ones screaming, "you have to give a draft class 3 years" back in 2009.

It is the sum total of all decisions vs. opportunity cost.

For that type of analysis, Scott Pioli doesn't deserve a good grade as Chiefs GM. Every GM will have injuries and surprises. Over time, that tends to equal out, unless the GM has a fetish for taking injured players and assuming all will work out like Adewale Ogunleye, sack artist from Indiana who went undrafted with a torn knee, and sat out his rookie year as a result... Pioli doesn't have that excuse. Pioli has whiffed on mostly healthy players...

[beach tribe]

"that he is going to take a QB in the first when the right opportunity comes along"

You "know" this...

even though the best pick he (really Bill B) made was a QB in round 6???

He'll either do it, or Clark will find someone that will.
Not sure he would have done it otherwise, but Clark made it very clear that he wanted to develop a top prospect in KC.

[Dexter Manley]

"but Clark made it very clear that he wanted to develop a top prospect in KC."

There were teams interested in trading up for Sanchez. Trading down from the pick for Tyson Jackson would have allowed the Chiefs to draft local Kansas State QB Josh Freeman three years ago...

Apparently Clark bought the idea that Cassel was a "top prospect..."

Personally, I think Clark should be a "hands off" owner...

[beach tribe]

"I don't think anyone is taking delight in his failures."


Analyzing failure is the first step towards avoiding it in the future...

And what is all this analyzation going to help US avoid in the future?

It's a BB. Without - & + there's no dialogue.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Anyone that thinks that Piolis last two drafts were bad, is a total morAn.

The guy fucked up on the Cassel trade, most of everything else he has done (player acquisition wise) has been pretty good.

This guy saying that he got the groceries that BB wanted needs to compare the drafts of NE and KC since Pioli has been gone.

KC has BLOWN THEM AWAY and its not even close.

New England:

Solder
Dowling
Vereen
Ridley
Mallett
Cannon
McCourty
Gronkowski
Cunningham
Spikes
Hernandez
Mesko
Chung
Brace
Butler
Vollmer
Tate
Edelman

Chiefs

Jackson
Cassel
Succop
Berry
McCluster
Arenas
Asomoah
Moeaki
Lewis
Baldwin
Hudson
Houston
Bailey
Brown
Stanzi
Powe



Sorry, but if anyone looks at that objectively, there's no way they come to the conclusion that KC's last three drafts have "blown NE's away."

Especially considering KC was drafting in the Top 5 in two of the three drafts.

[Dexter Manley]

And what is all this analyzation going to help US avoid in the future?

It's a BB. Without - & + there's no dialogue.


For one, we should never worship a guru, and we should always ask why when there is a demand to change the defensive scheme, and no evidence of players on the roster who fit the new scheme...

[beach tribe]

"but Clark made it very clear that he wanted to develop a top prospect in KC."

There were teams interested in trading up for Sanchez. Trading down from the pick for Tyson Jackson would have allowed the Chiefs to draft local Kansas State QB Josh Freeman three years ago...

Apparently Clark bought the idea that Cassel was a "top prospect..."

Personally, I think Clark should be a "hands off" owner...

You've made it quite clear that what is apparent to you is worth it's weight in Ron Jeremy autographed Sham Wows.

[Dexter Manley]

You've made it quite clear that what is apparent to you is worth it's weight in Ron Jeremy autographed Sham Wows.

Anyone who thought Matt Cassel was a "top prospect" three years ago is pretty well discredited by reality, and should be out of the room during the discussion about who should be next...

Argue that you can, but folks here watch the games...

[beach tribe]

For one, we should never worship a guru, and we should always ask why when there is a demand to change the defensive scheme, and no evidence of players on the roster who fit the new scheme...

So you're saying this group would have been better utilized in the 4-3?

Excuse me sir, you're stupid is showing.

[beach tribe]

Anyone who thought Matt Cassel was a "top prospect" three years ago is pretty well discredited by reality, and should be out of the room during the discussion about who should be next...

Argue that you can, but folks here watch the games...

Cause' top prospects are always acquired with 2nd round picks.

[Dexter Manley]

So you're saying this group would have been better utilized in the 4-3?

Excuse me sir, you're stupid is showing.

Instead of responding with an insult, document where the 3-4 talent on the roster was...

There certainly was 4-3 talent. Pioli let one 4-3 DE walk in FA for nothing, and he currently has 15 sacks in 13 games for Phlly...

[Dexter Manley]

Cause' top prospects are always acquired with 2nd round picks.


Drew Brees
Brett Favre

...

Andy Dalton

[beach tribe]

Drew Brees
Brett Favre

...

Andy Dalton

Is there any frequent occurrence in the NFL that exceptions cannot be presented for?
Way to go. You found them for this one.

[beach tribe]

Instead of responding with an insult, document where the 3-4 talent on the roster was...

There certainly was 4-3 talent. Pioli let one 4-3 DE walk in FA for nothing, and he currently has 15 sacks in 13 games for Phlly...

We set the record for fewest sacks in a season in the 4-3.
If ain't broke, don't fix it. Ammirite?
.

[Dexter Manley]

We set the record for fewest sacks in a season in the 4-3.
If ain't broke, don't fix it. Ammirite?
.


When did Jason B###n start opposite Hali? Late that season, right? Wasn't the pass rush a bit better the final few games with B###n and Hali at DE?

In the archives of Chiefs Planet is a poster named TFG, who was telling Chiefs Planet not to go 3-4, but rather to stay 4-3 and keep Jason B###n... before B###n signed with Philly.

[Dexter Manley]

Is there any frequent occurrence in the NFL that exceptions cannot be presented for?
Way to go. You found them for this one.


The point is that a second round pick has real value, and that value should be used to help the Chiefs, not Bill Bellichick...

[Pasta Little Brioni]

When did Jason B###n start opposite Hali? Late that season, right? Wasn't the pass rush a bit better the final few games with B###n and Hali at DE?

In the archives of Chiefs Planet is a poster named TFG, who was telling Chiefs Planet not to go 3-4, but rather to stay 4-3 and keep Jason B###n... before B###n signed with Philly.

...and Babin sucked in Philly, got cut, ended up with the Titans who fixed whatever was wrong with him, and he ended up a pretty good pass rusher. He may not have developed here.

[beach tribe]

QBs with a 2nd rnd value are worth taking a shot at. Especially when Croyle is the alternative.

[milkman]

We set the record for fewest sacks in a season in the 4-3.
If ain't broke, don't fix it. Ammirite?
.

I've said a few times that there is no such thing as a "guru" or "genius" when it comes to coaching.

A good coach can get his players to play to the level of their talent, and put them in the best positions to succeed.

A bad coach does eactly the opposite.

The talent on the defensive side was better suited to the 43.
The coaching failed them.

[beach tribe]

I've said a few times that there is no such thing as a "guru" or "genius" when it comes to coaching.

A good coach can get his players to play to the level of their talent, and put them in the best positions to succeed.

A bad coach does eactly the opposite.

The talent on the defensive side was better suited to the 43.
The coaching failed them.

You're gunther Hate may be a little too strong for an unbiased opinion here.
Talent will prevail more than 10 fucking times in an entire season.
Our best players on D are better off in the 3-4.
We didn't have enough players suited for an NFL roster to not make a switch.

[chiefzilla1501]

You're gunther Hate may be a little too strong for an unbiased opinion here.
Talent will prevail more than 10 ****ing times in an entire season.
Our best players on D are better off in the 3-4.
We didn't have enough players suited for an NFL roster to not make a switch.

Hali may have benefitted from better coaching. Dorsey and dj definitely. If they drafted orakpo, their d line would have consisted of Hali, Dorsey, tank Tyler, and orakpo. Their secondary would have had bookend corners. They were very close to fielding a formidable 4-3. Yeah, if they had 3 years, this defense would be much further along.

And bs on the talent equation. Good coaches recognize talent and coach them up. Gun has never done that in kc. Shitty judge of talent. Shitty at getting the most of his players.

[philfree]

If a team won 6 games in two years and then you got the chance to take over would proceeding down the same path as the previous regime be the best move? I don't think so. I don't blame Pioli for changing to 3-4 D. It didn't hurt this team one bit and it revived the careers of two of our best defenders. This whole 4-3 vs 3-4 argument is just silly.

[Brock]

If a team won 6 games in two years and then you got the chance to take over would proceeding down the same path as the previous regime be the best move? I don't think so. I don't blame Pioli for changing to 3-4 D. It didn't hurt this team one bit and it revived the careers of two of our best defenders. This whole 4-3 vs 3-4 argument is just silly.

And 3 years later, you still don't really have the right personnel to run that defense. So, yeah.

[chiefzilla1501]

If a team won 6 games in two years and then you got the chance to take over would proceeding down the same path as the previous regime be the best move? I don't think so. I don't blame Pioli for changing to 3-4 D. It didn't hurt this team one bit and it revived the careers of two of our best defenders. This whole 4-3 vs 3-4 argument is just silly.

How do you know it didn't hurt this team? What if we used our #3 pick and committed the next 3 years of free agency to building it?

[philfree]

And 3 years later, you still don't really have the right personnel to run that defense. So, yeah.

What's missing? A true 5 tech to put in Dorsey's spot?

[chiefzilla1501]

And 3 years later, you still don't really have the right personnel to run that defense. So, yeah.

Yes we do.

The question is... Is the 2-gap 3-4 obsolete?
And would we be further along if we Built on what we already had?

My unfortunate sinking feeling is the answer is yes to both.

[Chiefnj2]

Yes we do.

The question is... Is the 2-gap 3-4 obsolete?
And would we be further along if we Built on what we already had?

My unfortunate sinking feeling is the answer is yes to both.

Screw this "obsolete" crap. It's almost always a benefit to play a system that others don't play because teams don't practice for it very often and aren't used to it.

[chiefzilla1501]

You're gunther Hate may be a little too strong for an unbiased opinion here.
Talent will prevail more than 10 ****ing times in an entire season.
Our best players on D are better off in the 3-4.
We didn't have enough players suited for an NFL roster to not make a switch.

I'm not convinced at all that Hali and dj weren't resurged because of better coaching. A new coach would have asked Hali to drop weight and learn better hand technique instead of krumries patty cake technique. A new coach would have taught dj to stop freelancing. Those were two players held back by poor coaching.

Dorsey would have been better in a 4-3. We could have used the #3 pick on a true #3 like orAkpo instead of a system player. Flowers and Carr were fine regardless of scheme.

[chiefzilla1501]

Screw this "obsolete" crap. It's almost always a benefit to play a system that others don't play because teams don't practice for it very often and aren't used to it.

Is this a joke?

The reason other teams don't run it is because they don't think it works. New England ditched it. Mangini has been fired twice. Romeo was fired. Sparano was fired. Parcells has had little success building it recently.

The defense hasn't worked anywhere else recently. Teams stopped running it because they don't think it works.

[Brock]

What's missing? A true 5 tech to put in Dorsey's spot?

Are you kidding? We have a NT on his last legs and a 5th round pick invested in the position. Good grief.

[ChiefsCountry]

Alot of us said all of this back in 2009. Yet we were blasted for it.

[philfree]

Is this a joke?

The reason other teams don't run it is because they don't think it works. New England ditched it. Mangini has been fired twice. Romeo was fired. Sparano was fired. Parcells has had little success building it recently.

The defense hasn't worked anywhere else recently. Teams stopped running it because they don't think it works.

To be fair Miami is 5th in points per game 12th in yards. New England with there changed D is 14th in points and 32nd in yards. :shrug:

[milkman]

You're gunther Hate may be a little too strong for an unbiased opinion here.
Talent will prevail more than 10 ****ing times in an entire season.
Our best players on D are better off in the 3-4.
We didn't have enough players suited for an NFL roster to not make a switch.

My Gunther hate is strong, no doubt.

But look at that Lion defense right now.

There is no way in hell that a team with Suh, Cory Willaims and Nick Fairly should be rated lower than top 10 in rush defense, and lower than top 20 in overall defense.

They are rated somehwere close to the bottom half in rush, and bottom third in overall defense.

That's a guy that doesn't get his team in position to succeed.

The talent available was not nearly as good on the Chiefs, but he failed those guys, and the fact remains, no matter how you try to spin, we did have the core talent for a 43 defense, and in a couple of cases, we are square pegging round holes still.

[philfree]

Are you kidding? We have a NT on his last legs and a 5th round pick invested in the position. Good grief.

The position is still covered. Powe was great value in the 5th round to so...Needs upgraded but it's still covered.

And Hali was maxed out as a DE. That was the book on him when he was drafted. Maxed out for the position. Moving to a 3-4 turned his career around and he's now one of our best players. With Houston coming along this D is starting to turn around.

I've always leaned towrd a 4-3 but after watching the Chiefs 4-3 be one of the worst Ds in the league for several years running I welcomed the change to the 3-4.

[chiefzilla1501]

The position is still covered. Powe was great value in the 5th round to so...Needs upgraded but it's still covered.

And Hali was maxed out as a DE. That was the book on him when he was drafted. Maxed out for the position. Moving to a 3-4 turned his career around and he's now one of our best players. With Houston coming along this D is starting to turn around.

I've always leaned towrd a 4-3 but after watching the Chiefs 4-3 be one of the worst Ds in the league for several years running I welcomed the change to the 3-4.

I think he would have been productive in a 4-3. Two big difference now is trimming down Ans his hand technique is second to none. I don't k ow how much is scheme Ans how much is coaching.

[chiefzilla1501]

To be fair Miami is 5th in points per game 12th in yards. New England with there changed D is 14th in points and 32nd in yards. :shrug:

Again... Don't know is the answer yes or no. I do notice that our d struggles against good offensive lines.

[Dexter Manley]

...and Babin sucked in Philly, got cut, ended up with the Titans who fixed whatever was wrong with him, and he ended up a pretty good pass rusher. He may not have developed here.

Wrong.

B###n did extremely well in preseason in 09, and was inactive the first half of the season, and got to play a bit in 2009 late for Philly, and was productive. Then, as a UFA, not a cut, he signed with TN, and put up 12.5 sacks in a rotation, and then went to Hawaii. This year, he signed with Philly for $6 mil per, and has done OK...

[Dexter Manley]

QBs with a 2nd rnd value are worth taking a shot at. Especially when Croyle is the alternative.


You say that as if the NFL Draft is "precisely accurate," which it proves every year it isn't.

A second round pick has value. Whether the player selected (or traded for) with that pick has value has a lot more to do with the player than the pick...

[Dexter Manley]

"The talent on the defensive side was better suited to the 43"

If I wasn't lactose intolerant, you'd be my favorite poster here... because you actually do watch football, and your takes are from your observations, not mindlessly repeated off some "guru" somewhere...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He'll either do it, or Clark will find someone that will.
Not sure he would have done it otherwise, but Clark made it very clear that he wanted to develop a top prospect in KC.

This implicit faith in Clark Hunt has absolutely no basis in reality. You don't have to distrust him, but he's done nothing to make you think that he'll make the right decision either.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Explain to me what Derrick Johnson does in a 3-4 that he couldn't in a 4-3. Or Hali for that matter, who is a standup defensive end for all purposes.

[philfree]

Explain to me what Derrick Johnson does in a 3-4 that he couldn't in a 4-3. Or Hali for that matter, who is a standup defensive end for all purposes.

DJ makes more plays in the 3-4 why is hard to say. Perhaps it just fits his game better or maybe his assignments are clearer and maybe fewer.

In the 4-3 we played Hali lined up with his and on the ground at LDE. He got smothered out of plays with the big RTs right on top of him. He didn't seem to do to good when he played on the right side either as a down lineman.

[Rausch]

Explain to me what Derrick Johnson does in a 3-4 that he couldn't in a 4-3. Or Hali for that matter, who is a standup defensive end for all purposes.

DONE.

I don't want to ever hear $3it from you again about what people do or don't know about the game...

[milkman]

DJ makes more plays in the 3-4 why is hard to say. Perhaps it just fits his game better or maybe his assignments are clearer and maybe fewer.

In the 4-3 we played Hali lined up with his and on the ground at LDE. He got smothered out of plays with the big RTs right on top of him. He didn't seem to do to good when he played on the right side either as a down lineman.

It's just a coincidence that both DJ and Hali improved when the coaching staff improved.

[milkman]

DONE.

I don't want to ever hear $3it from you again about what people do or don't know about the game...

What the hell are you talking about?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

DONE.

I don't want to ever hear $3it from you again about what people do or don't know about the game...

Why?

Correlation does not imply causation.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

It's just a coincidence that both DJ and Hali improved when the coaching staff improved.

Plus 1

[ChiefsCountry]

Hali did pretty well at LDE. It was when he moved to RDE to replace Allen, when he sucked in the 4-3.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Hali rushes the passer almost exclusively in this scheme. He's moved around a bit, but he normally does it off of right end.

There is nothing about the 4-3 that says you can't move one of your ends around, drop him in coverage, or have him rush from a standing position.

[philfree]

It's just a coincidence that both DJ and Hali improved when the coaching staff improved.

And we changed the scheme at the same time so there's probably a good chance that both things lead to their improvement. Although I don't see Hali improving so much if he keeps playing with his hand in the dirt at LDE. He was maxed out at that position.

[aturnis]

That's total bullshit. This is a pass happy league. He's not returning punts in a lot of games because he's playing a ton of snaps. And in spread out offenses, he's often covering the #1 or #2 receiver on a defense that doesn't get much pass rush.

Hes a very good nickel corner. And as a punt returner, he's one of the better ones in the game.

He's a very good role player. At the bottom of the second round, he's playing enough of a role to justify that pick.

Dunlap, Lee, Cody, Spikes, Angerer, Decker, Graham > Arenas

Arenas has more sacks than Spikes. Also has more FF, FR and of course he adds more to the team than being a mere defender.

[ChiefsCountry]

If you look at Hali's stats, they are identical across the board every year expect 2008. Last year was his big sack year, but other than that he is has been consitant every year.

[philfree]

Hali rushes the passer almost exclusively in this scheme. He's moved around a bit, but he normally does it off of right end.

There is nothing about the 4-3 that says you can't move one of your ends around, drop him in coverage, or have him rush from a standing position.

You can change up any scheme if you want. :shrug:

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I think attributing the scheme change for the success of Hali and Johnson is foolish. Johnson is every bit as active and disruptive as a Mike in this scheme as he would be in a 4-3.

Hali had a down year in 2008 and a career year in 2010. He's definitely a better player than he was under Herm, but getting rid of dumb fuck Krumrie and the development of Dorsey helped him a great deal.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

What the hell happened to Rausch? Was that last post a final drunk outburst before he passed out?

[milkman]

And we changed the scheme at the same time so there's probably a good chance that both things lead to their improvement. Although I don't see Hali improving so much if he keeps playing with his hand in the dirt at LDE. He was maxed out at that position.

The thing that changed for Hali, that lead to his improvement, is the way he has learned to use his hands, and he has gotten stronger.

The hand usage is coaching.
The added strength is better weight and conditioning, which can also be attributed ot a better staff, and those things would have worked whether he was at OLB or DE.

[milkman]

What the hell happened to Rausch? Was that last post a final drunk outburst before he passed out?

That's a good question.

I never thought of him as this kind of dumbass before.

[philfree]

If you look at Hali's stats, they are identical across the board every year expect 2008. Last year was his big sack year, but other than that he is has been consitant every year.

IDK Hali had 18.5 sacks in the 3 years he played in the 4-3 and 32 in the 3 years he's played in the 3-4 and he still has 3 more games to notch a few more. A couple of good games and he could have double the sacks in the 3-4 as compared to the 4-3.

[philfree]

The thing that changed for Hali, that lead to his improvement, is the way he has learned to use his hands, and he has gotten stronger.

The hand usage is coaching.
The added strength is better weight and conditioning, which can also be attributed ot a better staff, and those things would have worked whether he was at OLB or DE.

Not having his hand in the dirt might play a part in better hand usage for him. There's no way for me to really know if he's stronger or not. Maybe he just looks stronger because he has the room to get started on the plays when he's standing up.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Take out the career year in the 3-4 and the career down in the 4-3. All players have years when they play above and below their ability.

Even if you didn't, those two years average out to his career average, which, after the end of this year, will be about 8.5-9 sacks/year.

I think that Hali is a better player than when Herm and dumb fuck Krumrie were here, but I don't think you can attribute that improvement to scheme, but technique.

[milkman]

Not having his hand in the dirt might play a part in better hand usage for him. There's no way for me to really know if he's stronger or not. Maybe he just looks stronger because he has the room to get started on the plays when he's standing up.

Again, it's just a coincidence that the hand usage improved after the staff brought in a guy specifically to teach better hand usage.

Get a ****ing clue.

[Titty Meat]

Jesus some of you want to go back to the 4-3 again?

[ChiefsCountry]

Jesus some of you want to go back to the 4-3 again?

I never wanted to go to the 3-4 in 2009.

[chiefzilla1501]

Other option is a 1-gap 3-4. In my opinion, a much better usage of dorseys talents.

[FlaChief58]

If he's right about even half of that, we will remain the laughing stock / whipping boys of the NFL for as long as egoli is in charge......FTW!

[DaWolf]

"The thing about Scott is that he only wants to win a championship one way, and if you're not doing it his way, there are no other options. He is so self-centered, so believing in his own hype, so unaware of the fact that Bill Belichick and Tom Brady played so much into what he did in NE that he thinks that every decision he is going to make is going to be the right one."

Sounds like most GMs and head coaches who want power out there. If they dont get the job done, the get fired. Nothing groundbreaking...

[BossChief]

DJ was also a better player at Texas during the year or two they ran a 3-4 iirc.

With him, it seems to fit his skill set far better than the 4-3 ever did.

I do agree that Hali could have had that good year in either scheme, but we will never know.

All we do know is that once we changed schemes, his productivity went up almost immediately.

Anyway, its a waste of time talking about going back to the 4-3...its NOT gonna happen.

When your Gm shows up and hands a 5tech a contract that averages as much as his hand picked quarterback, we are stuck with the scheme.

[philfree]

Again, it's just a coincidence that the hand usage improved after the staff brought in a guy specifically to teach better hand usage.

Get a ****ing clue.

And that's different then his play improving when we changed to a 3-4? So the scheme changed at the same he recieved some new coaching but it's only the coaching part that made a difference? LMAO Sure.

[BigMeatballDave]

I never wanted to go to the 3-4 in 2009.Allen was gone so I didnt care.

[milkman]

And that's different then his play improving when we changed to a 3-4? So the scheme changed at the same he recieved some new coaching but it's only the coaching part that made a difference? LMAO Sure.

If you can't see that he's still a beast now even on the plays when he's putting his hand in the dirt, that his improvement is the direct result of improved technique, then I don't know what to tell you.

Of course, I do believe that you're the guy that told us that you knew that Aaron Curry was going to be a great player because you could see it in his eyes.

[philfree]

If you can't see that he's still a beast now even on the plays when he's putting his hand in the dirt, that his improvement is the direct result of improved technique, then I don't know what to tell you.

Of course, I do believe that you're the guy that told us that you knew that Aaron Curry was going to be a great player because you could see it in his eyes.

How many plays a game is he lining up with his hand on the ground? I might recall one that I noticed but that'd be about it. Maybe "Omega" could gif some of those up for us. Or maybe you could document that for me somehow. Yeah probably not.

So according to milkman Hali only improved his game through improved technique and changing to the 3-4 had nothing to do with it.

Got it!

[FAX]

Arenas has more sacks than Spikes. Also has more FF, FR and of course he adds more to the team than being a mere defender.

Arenas is a very good blitzer. Very good.

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't bring him more often.

Check that. No I'm not. Nothing this team does surprises me any more.

FAX

[FAX]

DJ makes more plays in the 3-4 why is hard to say. Perhaps it just fits his game better or maybe his assignments are clearer and maybe fewer.

In the 4-3 we played Hali lined up with his and on the ground at LDE. He got smothered out of plays with the big RTs right on top of him. He didn't seem to do to good when he played on the right side either as a down lineman.

The 3/4 is designed to give the linebackers more highlight opportunities, no?

Also, all the 'backers are becoming more comfortable in this scheme. The line is playing better, too. It seems to me that, if this defensive scheme is humming along properly, you should see good linebacker stats.

FAX

[philfree]

The 3/4 is designed to give the linebackers more highlight opportunities, no?

Also, all the 'backers are becoming more comfortable in this scheme. The line is playing better, too. It seems to me that, if this defensive scheme is humming along properly, you should see good linebacker stats.

FAX

I'm content with the 3-4. To me Hali and DJ are much better players in the 3-4. So what was you're point exactly?

[FAX]

I'm content with the 3-4. To me Hali and DJ are much better players in the 3-4. So what was you're point exactly?

I just dropped by and saw you guys arguing about whether or not it was the scheme or the coaching or the player or whatever that explains the improvement we've seen in DJ's and Hali's performance. That's all.

To me, it's a combination of all those things.

However, the biggest thing is the way we're playing the 3/4. Our line tries to tie up blockers so that the 'backers are free to make plays. It's simple. The main reason DJ has better statistics is that he's free(er) to make more plays closer to the LOS. He still has to fight off blocks and he's doing a very good job of that, but those are typically 1-on-1 engagements and even then he's already read the play well before contact due to the line play.

FAX

[philfree]

I just dropped by and saw you guys arguing about whether or not it was the scheme or the coaching or the player or whatever that explains the improvement we've seen in DJ's and Hali's performance. That's all.

To me, it's a combination of all those things.

However, the biggest thing is the way we're playing the 3/4. Our line tries to tie up blockers so that the 'backers are free to make plays. It's simple. The main reason DJ has better statistics is that he's free(er) to make more plays closer to the LOS. He still has to fight off blocks and he's doing a very good job of that, but those are typically 1-on-1 engagements and even then he's already read the play well before contact due to the line play.

FAX

That's what I was saying.

And you're rihgt. Both players have been freed up because they're playing in the 3-4.

[FAX]

That's what I was saying.

And you're rihgt. Both players have been freed up because they're playing in the 3-4.

Exactly, so.

I think Hali and DJ would both have improved this year anyhow, but not as much ... statistically.

It's strange how people think that a linebacker in the 4/3 and a linebacker in the 3/4 are the same job. They aren't.

FAX

[milkman]

Exactly, so.

I think Hali and DJ would both have improved this year anyhow, but not as much ... statistically.

It's strange how people think that a linebacker in the 4/3 and a linebacker in the 3/4 are the same job. They aren't.

FAX

In either scheme, the D-Line has to engage the O-Line to free up the LBs.

DJ always had the ability to make plays, and he flashed that ability before this staff was put into place.

This staff has gotten consistency from him.

As for Hali, let me see if I understand this.

If he is putting his hand in the dirt, there's no way he would have gotten better technically with better coaching?

He wouldn't be able to use his hands as effectively because his hand is in the dirt at the snap?

It's all because he's a stand up LB?

[007]

I wouldn't have a problem with Pioli if he hadn't tied the franchise to Cassel for 5 years. That alone should be enough to get him fired.

[FAX]

In either scheme, the D-Line has to engage the O-Line to free up the LBs.

DJ always had the ability to make plays, and he flashed that ability before this staff was put into place.

This staff has gotten consistency from him.

As for Hali, let me see if I understand this.

If he is putting his hand in the dirt, there's no way he would have gotten better technically with better coaching?

He wouldn't be able to use his hands as effectively because his hand is in the dirt at the snap?

It's all because he's a stand up LB?

I have to get some sleep, Mr. milkman. So if we could discuss this tomorrow sometime, it would be great.

In the meantime, no. I'm not saying Hali wouldn't have improved as a DE in a 4/3 (depending on how they ran the 4/3 front and what was asked of the players, of course). Actually, I said in my post that Hali would have improved anyhow ... but the 3/4 is helping him improve his stats.

I attribute Hali's improvement with his hands to his own hard work. The coaches brought in some kind of Chinaman Judy Chopper dude to help and Hali actually hired his own Chinaman Judy Chopper dude during the off-season. In the last interview he did on chiefs.com, Hali attributed his improvement in shedding blockers to the work he's put in on his hands.

But in general, I think a 2-gap, 3/4 will help your 'backers make highlight reels more often because it's designed (in part) for the d-line to draw double-teams. If everybody is doing their job on the line, the 'backers should only be going 1-on-1 against a blocker at worst (we're talking run plays, here). A linebacker vs. a TE or FB is a matchup we want (when we're playing run).

My other point was this; how the d-line plays helps the 'backers in another way. Based on the flow of the play and how the d-line reacts to the blocks at the LOS, the 'backer can "read" the play sooner and flow more quickly to the ball carrier. If he doesn't overrun the play, he should be in good position to make the stop and the worst he's going to encounter is a 1-on-1 block. That's why linebackers tend to make headlines when they play in the 3/4.

FAX

[philfree]

In either scheme, the D-Line has to engage the O-Line to free up the LBs.

DJ always had the ability to make plays, and he flashed that ability before this staff was put into place.

This staff has gotten consistency from him.

As for Hali, let me see if I understand this.

If he is putting his hand in the dirt, there's no way he would have gotten better technically with better coaching?

He wouldn't be able to use his hands as effectively because his hand is in the dirt at the snap?

It's all because he's a stand up LB?

I never said it was because of any one thing. That's what you did.

I will maintain that Hali is better in the 3-4 the Chiefs run now as compared to the 4-3 the Chiefs ran the first three years of his career.

[Rasputin]

Getting Eric Berry back next year is going to bolster the defense.

Getting Jamaal Charles back next year is going to bolster the offense.

Getting Matt Cassel back...

Not having to worry about getting our asses kicked in the playoffs due to end of the world is going be something to look forward too.

Bring on the new year.

[JCharles1981]

So basically, the Patriots' 5 Superbowl appearances and 3 of them wins were mostly due to Tom Brady and Bill Bellicheck? Then why the heck did the Chiefs think Scott Pioli was a major contributor to their success?

[Rasputin]

So basically, the Patriots' 5 Superbowl appearances and 3 of them wins were mostly due to Tom Brady and Bill Bellicheck? Then why the heck did the Chiefs think Scott Pioli was a major contributor to their success?

Here is a theory: BB & Pioli are & have been in cahoots to keep the Chiefs down from anything promising future threat from beating out the Patriots on the road to the Super Bowl.

& or

It could be revenge from the Bernard Pollard incident idk? In this case, Pioli & BB still have it worked out. Pioli is a rat from the Patriots organization. Thus getting Cassel from them trading a 2nd for him. The Patriots have viewed the Chiefs as a week and vulnerable franchise after the Carl and Herm debacle. They must have got to Clark Hunt early with the notion that Pioli should be the next GM upon firing Carl Peterson.

Now Clark can kiss Piolis rings with BB being the mastermind of this devious plot.

This may sound far fetch, but really what's the evidence show?