The Haley Effect....Offense

[petegz28]

If our o-line plays good against the Raiders do you chalk it up to having a better QB or will it make it plain that Haley was hampering the offense in whatever way?


I know we played good against GB but the Raiders have a better defense...sorta (27th vs. 31st in GB). They are however 4th in sacks compared to GB's 26th. Scoring wise GB is a much better defense but against the pass the Raiders are better.

So I think it's safe to say that we are going to face a better overall defense, especially vs the pass.

If the O-line plays good again what do you chalk it up too?

[Red Brooklyn]

Can't it be both?

[petegz28]

Can't it be both?

Sure it could. I just think that going from the performances we were getting to our best performance of the year in a week where you lose your HC and start a QB that has practiced all of a few days points more to the coach. That isn't to say we would have had near the success if Cassel were the QB but just the performance of the O-line in general really makes you wonder what headache may have been relieved when Haley was fired?

[MahiMike]

I know one thing. I want to know who the hell was calling the plays Sunday. Orton was a stud but the play calling definitely was top shelf. Hope it continues.

[hometeam]

it was Muir, without Haley and Zorn.

[BigMeatballDave]

I know one thing. I want to know who the hell was calling the plays Sunday. Orton was a stud but the play calling definitely was top shelf. Hope it continues.

What? Play selection was AWFUL in the redzone.

[Red Brooklyn]

Sure. Matt - Mcan, 'round these parts - truly believes it's more Haley than Orton.

I'll defer to those that know more about X's and O's football than I do. But I definitely saw a QB last week that outplayed Cassel on every level.

I'm really interested to see what happens against a better defense - especially such a high ranking pass rushing defense. If the line holds up, I gotta go with coaching. If the line falters, but we still thrive, then I gotta think that has a lot to do with Orton.

[InChiefsHeaven]

As I watched the GB game, I asked myself if the Chiefs could have won that game with Haley on the sidelines. I just don't think so. It's only one game, but the 4 games of sheer futility and crap that we watched prior to that makes me think that Haley was a big big part of the Chiefs not just losing but getting their asses handed to them. Romeo may not be the solution, but he seems to be a damn site better than what Haley was bringing to the table.

As for Orton...I saw a QB make 2 nice long throws, look off safeties and survey the field, and generally look like a polished solid QB...not a guy who didn't really have much time with the offense. He looked at least twice as good as Cassel.

I say it's both. I think the jury is out on Orton and Romeo for the future, but they both already look worlds better than the other two.

[petegz28]

From my own personal experience in the workplace, I have been a part of teams that were loaded with talent but things never really went right because there was tension between the manager and his higher ups. It just had everyone on eggshells. Once the higher up moved on and was replaced the tension went away and people were less stressed and we had better results.

I can see the same with Haley\Muir\Zorn. The tension may not have been directed at the players but they felt it and were caught up in it as a consequence. I would be curious to know what arguing went on during practice and behind closed doors between Haley and Muir that we never saw but the players did?

[MahiMike]

What? Play selection was AWFUL in the redzone.

Nit picker. WTH? That was the best performance all year. Sure, Orton has to realize that Baldwin is 6 4. The real problem there is our tiny OL. Once we grab a lineman or 2 in the draft, 3rd and 1 will be much improved.

[petegz28]

What? Play selection was AWFUL in the redzone.

Our problem with the RZ has been the same for years though last year we got lucky a little more. Constant fades or sweeps. We never try to throw crossing routes in the endzone for whatever reason. With the compact field defenders can stay with a WR on a fade a lot easier than if they have to cover a guy running across the back of the endzone.

[Okie_Apparition]

Orton knows the Raiders & the Raiders know Orton
yet the Raiders know the Chiefs o line better than Orton
inter divisional games may have to be thrown out

[Okie_Apparition]

But do the Raiders know the Chiefs recievers with a QB
fuck it All!!!

[Phobia]

What? Play selection was AWFUL in the redzone.

Just because the Packer defense stiffened. The Chiefs had several opportunities but didn't execute. That wasn't a play-calling problem.

[petegz28]

Orton knows the Raiders & the Raiders know Orton
yet the Raiders know the Chiefs o line better than Orton
inter divisional games may have to be thrown out

I don't know about all that. I think one thing that could be an intangible is Orton doesn't really know the O-line so he just throws his trust in them and does what he has to do instead of worrying about it.

Orton also seems to grasp the concept of a hot route and most certainly can read a defense better than Cassel.

[petegz28]

Just because the Packer defense stiffened. The Chiefs had several opportunities but didn't execute. That wasn't a play-calling problem.

Honestly I thought the playcalling in the RZ sucked ass. The first drive was lack of execution, I'll say that. A slant thrown behind Breaston and a dropped pass by L-Mac. Other than that we tried fades and sweeps. Penalties also hurt us. The pass to Dex was great but just a yard or two short of the goalline.

But the 4th down play and the other time we tried to pound it spoke more against the O-line than the play call, to be fair. You know as well as I do anytime it's 3rd or 4th and short it comes down to heart and just knocking the guy in front of you on his ass. We can't do that.

[MahiMike]

Our problem with the RZ has been the same for years though last year we got lucky a little more. Constant fades or sweeps. We never try to throw crossing routes in the endzone for whatever reason. With the compact field defenders can stay with a WR on a fade a lot easier than if they have to cover a guy running across the back of the endzone.

When we got Thomas Jones I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

When we got Leron McClain I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

Conclusion: our OL is undersized.

[BigMeatballDave]

Just because the Packer defense stiffened. The Chiefs had several opportunities but didn't execute. That wasn't a play-calling problem.

It is if you are sending in the same package/formation every time.

Be a little creative.

[petegz28]

When we got Thomas Jones I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

When we got Leron McClain I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

Conclusion: our OL is undersized.

And THAT, my firend you can place squarely on the shoulders of our former coach. Remember he is the one that wanted Albert to drop all that weight? We saw that Weigman couldn't powerblock under Herm yet we brought him back. Haley's biggest **** up was to put together an O-line designed for pulling and sweeping and then tried to power run the ball. Aside from a couple draws, and I don't consider those power runs, we never saw Dex being slammed up the middle against GB. That tells me Muir is smart enough to know that is futile but we saw it constantly while Haley was here. If we see it pop up again though against Oakland then I will take that back.


And to add that this was the first game we saw L-Mac on the field for more than 1 or 2 plays.

[BigMeatballDave]

When we got Thomas Jones I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

When we got Leron McClain I thought our short yardage problems were solved.

Conclusion: our OL is undersized.

Wiegman seems to be getting his ass kicked a lot here.

[Okie_Apparition]

The deepfreeze would have got the job done
maybe will see Powe at the goal line ROFL

[petegz28]

Wiegman seems to be getting his ass kicked a lot here.

Weigman's been getting his ass kicked since Herm exposed him for a weak or old or both, center. He can't power block. that's all there is to it.

[FloridaMan88]

If our o-line plays good against the Raiders do you chalk it up to having a better QB or will it make it plain that Haley was hampering the offense in whatever way?


I know we played good against GB but the Raiders have a better defense...sorta (27th vs. 31st in GB). They are however 4th in sacks compared to GB's 26th. Scoring wise GB is a much better defense but against the pass the Raiders are better.

So I think it's safe to say that we are going to face a better overall defense, especially vs the pass.

If the O-line plays good again what do you chalk it up too?

Orton is a significant upgrade over Cassel and obviously a massive upgrade over Palko.

That is the difference.

[Okie_Apparition]

Palko was an upgrade over Cassel
he has a set(confidence)

[Extra Point]

If all our plays were running Battle on the diagonal from GB's 10YL, we would have had 4-11 more points in that game.

[otherstar]

Weigman's been getting his ass kicked since Herm exposed him for a weak or old or both, center. He can't power block. that's all there is to it.

Yep. He's way undersized for the type of Offense we've been running since Vermeil left. Grunhard was much bigger, as was the rest of the line back when we were a power running team. The line we have now is best suited for fast-moving plays with lots of pulling not for trying to kick your teeth in and running the ball down your throat. When you try to run power-type plays in the RZ with the kind of line we have right now it won't work very well.

Have we had anyone that could run a crossing route in the end zone since Gonzalez left?

[Hammock Parties]

Oakland's pass rush is pretty good. Better than Green Bay's. We need to run the ball better this week.

[Hammock Parties]

Interestingly enough, last time we played Oakland our protection was stellar. Even BRich played well.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I just remember thinking on the 4th and inches that we missed up the middle that they should have run a damn bootleg. I just had a feeling we weren't gonna get that one. We definitely left a TON of points on the field. Game should have damn near been a blowout.

[Chief Faithful]

QUOTE=Okie_Apparition;8227503]Palko was an upgrade over Cassel
he has a set(confidence)[/QUOTE]

:spock:

Palko was not an upgrade over any QB that has started for the Chiefs since then moved up from Texas. He was a short slow footed QB who had trouble reading a defense and could not deliver a pass to 2/3 of the field. He had no business being on an NFL roster and Haley deserved to be fired for even putting him on the field.

[ReynardMuldrake]

Our problem with the RZ has been the same for years though last year we got lucky a little more. Constant fades or sweeps. We never try to throw crossing routes in the endzone for whatever reason. With the compact field defenders can stay with a WR on a fade a lot easier than if they have to cover a guy running across the back of the endzone.

I don't know why we can't go top shelf in the red zone more often. Between Pope and Baldwin, we could complete passes over most defenders' heads if we wanted.

[BoneKrusher]

Just because the Packer defense stiffened. The Chiefs had several opportunities but didn't execute. That wasn't a play-calling problem.

agreed.

it'll get better as Orton gets more familiar with the receivers.

[htismaqe]

Oakland's pass rush is pretty good. Better than Green Bay's. We need to run the ball better this week.

Protecting Cassel was a lost cause, he still shit his pants on 3rd down.

If they give Orton that kind of protection on Saturday, I expect the offense to perform at least as well as they did against Green Bay. Oakland's front 7 is better than Green Bay's overall but their secondary isn't nearly as dangerous.

[Beef Supreme]

Yeah the play calling in the red zone was ass. It was obvious we weren't getting any push to run up the middle but we just kept doing it anyway.

Maybe now that we have a QB that can throw, Bowe, Baldwin and Pope will be more involved in the play selection in the red zone.

[jsmax]

Part of the difference was a QB that made passing a threat, not as many people rushing the line. And when they did, the QB knew how to hot read and dump the ball. Makes the defense have to respect the passing game. Also, saw a much more prepared team that seemed to have a better understanding of their opponents and tendancies....with an actual game plan to take advantage of it......How long has it been since Thomas Jones looked good, his best game in a while. And a short field (Red Zone) takes away a lot of those advantages and where we need to get better.

[ReynardMuldrake]

Part of the difference was a QB that made passing a threat, not as many people rushing the line. And when they did, the QB knew how to hot read and dump the ball. Makes the defense have to respect the passing game. Also, saw a much more prepared team that seemed to have a better understanding of their opponents and tendancies....with an actual game plan to take advantage of it......How long has it been since Thomas Jones looked good, his best game in a while.

Jones also looked good against the Pats. I'm guessing it's a motivation issue? He seems to play better against teams he doesn't like.

[Chiefnj2]

It's nice to see half a dozen articles about the "Chief's Model" to beat the Packers and analysis of what other teams can copy it to beat the Packers.

[TimeForWasp]

Could part of it be that Orton didn't know our recievers that well so as to not be prejudicial to who he threw it to? He threw to whomever got open instead of favorite team targets.

[Chief Faithful]

Part of the difference was a QB that made passing a threat, not as many people rushing the line. And when they did, the QB knew how to hot read and dump the ball. Makes the defense have to respect the passing game. Also, saw a much more prepared team that seemed to have a better understanding of their opponents and tendancies....with an actual game plan to take advantage of it......How long has it been since Thomas Jones looked good, his best game in a while. And a short field (Red Zone) takes away a lot of those advantages and where we need to get better.

:clap:

Defense cannot compress when the QB uses his hot reads, spreads the ball to all his receivers, uses the whole field and can read the defense. Something neither Cassel or Palko demonstrated. Orton had used 8 different receivers by half-time against the Packers.

[Chief Faithful]

Could part of it be that Orton didn't know our recievers that well so as to not be prejudicial to who he threw it to? He threw to whomever got open instead of favorite team targets.

I think it is more an indication that Orton could quickly check through his reads. Cassel has always been slow with his reads, which was attributed to lack of playing time in college. Good excuse for one season not 4 years.

[htismaqe]

Could part of it be that Orton didn't know our recievers that well so as to not be prejudicial to who he threw it to? He threw to whomever got open instead of favorite team targets.

That's part of it.

Part of the reason Breaston struggled early in the year is because Cassel was too focused on his safety blanket. Of course, a lot of those questionable throws (the ones where he doesn't check down at least) are to Bowe, who often makes the catch and bails Cassel out.

[Chris Meck]

Yeah the play calling in the red zone was ass. It was obvious we weren't getting any push to run up the middle but we just kept doing it anyway.


We haven't had any push up the middle in...hell, I don't even remember when the last time we really got push up the middle. Before Casey the first time, I guess. Grunhard's days?

Even those Vermeil teams ran mostly sweeps behind Roaf.

[vailpass]

What? Play selection was AWFUL in the redzone.

The Orton Effect

[whoman69]

Before we go all out and say the offense did great, we scored 19 points on the league's 31st ranked defense.

[TimeForWasp]

Has anyone heard anything about our rookie RB on the practice squad,Shaun Draughn?

Is he doing well?
Is he a power runner?