Clutch

[Phobia]

Discussion in another thread leads me to post this poll. Vote, then read and participate in the thread please. I'm looking for honest first impressions of the word, not to convince you otherwise.

[pr_capone]

Lmao... I almost posted this same thread.

[Phobia]

Lmao... I almost posted this same thread.

Yeah - I'm posting it because I think that playing organized sports actually will determine one's understanding of the word.

[Buck]

In football and basketball it's end of game only, but in baseball it's pretty much any time you get an RBI with RISP or 2 outs.

Edit: I guess if you make a great play on 3rd down or 4th down to extend the drive, that is clutch too, but I already voted so whatever.

[Phobia]

In football and basketball it's end of game only, but in baseball it's pretty much any time you get an RBI with RISP or 2 outs.

So you're arguing too that football players aren't under intense pressure until the end of the game?

Would you also argue that the "2 minute drill" is only used at the end of a game?

[Buck]

So you're arguing too that football players aren't under intense pressure until the end of the game?

Would you also argue that the "2 minute drill" is only used at the end of a game?

Yeah, I edited my post. 2 minute drills and 3rd and 4th downs are clutch situations.

You can change my vote in the poll if you know how.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

There are degrees of clutchness, and they can occur at any time in the game. The end of the game means the most, but a QB threading the needle on 3rd and goal for a TD when the team was down two scores in the second quarter is a damned clutch play.

[-King-]

There's a reason why people don't call LeBron James clutch. It's because he chokes in the 4th quarter. If you use the "Clutch is anytime during a contest" rule, you'd could say that LeBron is clutch just because he had a lay up in the 2nd quarter with 8:16 left.

[-King-]

There are degrees of clutchness, and they can occur at any time in the game. The end of the game means the most, but a QB threading the needle on 3rd and goal for a TD when the team was down two scores in the second quarter is a damned clutch play.

Would you consider the Bowe touchdown drop to be a clutch play?

[Phobia]

Yeah, I edited my post. 2 minute drills and 3rd and 4th downs are clutch situations.


Precisely. I'll change your vote but your name will still show under "exclusive to end of contest".

[Buck]

I do have to turn this around though...

Rivers is I think the 3rd best on 3rd down conversions. Would you say that he is clutch?

[listopencil]

Well, "clutch" to me indicates a high level of playmaking ability displayed under stressful situations.

[Phobia]

I do have to turn this around though...

Rivers is I think the 3rd best on 3rd down conversions. Would you say that he is clutch?

I don't consider him a "clutch" QB. But he's certainly capable of making a "clutch" play now and then.

[Buck]

Yeah, so really it can go either way.

There is no "right" answer here.

[Extra Point]

A WR, for instance, can make a clutch catch to get a first down, to keep a drive alive, even on the first drive of the game. The term "clutch," though, is used moreso by sportscasters in highlight reels.

[bricks]

I think it all depends on the circumstances.

If its an exhibition game, there really isn't any pressure for the starters to perform at all.

If its a regular season game, with playoff implications, then any point in time during the game where a starting player delivers is clutch.

[Phobia]

Yeah, so really it can go either way.

There is no "right" answer here.

I think there is but the reason I structured the poll this way is to determine if those who haven't played anything will be influenced by the media's typical use of the term.

I'm not interested in the label, "clutch player" so much as I am a particular "clutch" play for the purposes of this poll.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Would you consider the Bowe touchdown drop to be a clutch play?

If it was third down and he caught it against better coverage, yes.

[BigRedChief]

In football and basketball it's end of game only, but in baseball it's pretty much any time you get an RBI with RISP or 2 outs.

Edit: I guess if you make a great play on 3rd down or 4th down to extend the drive, that is clutch too, but I already voted so whatever.Same opinion here. The work "clutch" needs more definition.

[Phobia]

Would you consider the Bowe touchdown drop to be a clutch play?

That's a good question. It looked like a pretty routine catch except for the minor, minor PI infraction. So if he caught it, I'm not sure I would have called it clutch. If it were a more difficult catch or if the DB were draped all over him even more, I would have definitely termed it "clutch".

[BigRedChief]

The Bowe play wasn't clutch. The blocked field goal was.

[Phobia]

Same opinion here. The work "clutch" needs more definition.

No it doesn't. I want to know about your first impression of the word.

[BigRedChief]

No it doesn't. I want to know about your first impression of the word.First impression is when the game is on the line the player excels = clutch

[Extra Point]

Clutch=GODDAM we really needed that!

[Bugeater]

Hmmm....my first impression of the word is a mechanical device that temporarily disengages an engine from a transmission.

[Extra Point]

Too bad Shaun Smith wasn't around today, to firmly clutch Wisniewski's testicles.

[Fritz88]

Clutch is being under the pressure of time and score. Whether to maintain a score or increase it. The element if time is crucial because you know that you wont have a second chance. Therefore, extra concentration and poise are required, i.e., clutch.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigRock]

When I played sports, I definitely considered "clutch" to be exclusive to the end. As a fan, I recognize that a play doesn't have to be late in the game to be clutch. But that meant nothing to me as a player. To me, the "clutch plays not at the end" weren't clutch plays at all, they were just plays I had to make if I wanted to stay in the game.

If I couldn't come through in those situations then I probably wouldn't get the chance to come through late. At least that's how I approached it. I probably still would have gotten the chance, we had a weak bench.

[AustinChief]

I could see this going either way based on how the poll was worded.

I answered "at the end" because the second option was "more wrong" then the first. I don't think a clutch play can happen at ANY time in a game/match/event/round... it can only happen in a "clutch" situation.

As someone pointed out.. for football that could be a 4th down to keep a drive alive, in baseball a 2 out full count RISP RBI, etc etc

I think I focused on the wrong wording though ... and the intent was not to be as all inclusive as I understood it.

next time I should prolly read the thread before answering.

[cabletech94]

Lmao... I almost posted this same thread.

would you have spelled exclusive with a "c" or not with a "c"?

LMAOLMAOLMAO

[milkman]

That's a good question. It looked like a pretty routine catch except for the minor, minor PI infraction. So if he caught it, I'm not sure I would have called it clutch. If it were a more difficult catch or if the DB were draped all over him even more, I would have definitely termed it "clutch".

So, essentially, the "drop" makes him a player that fails in the clutch, but a catch would have just been routine?

Is that right?

I think this clearly shows how preconcieved notions can color judgement.

And, as I pointed out in that thread that inspired this poll, a closer look at the left hand would show you that was a more difficult catch that first look would lead you to believe.

[-King-]

That's a good question. It looked like a pretty routine catch except for the minor, minor PI infraction. So if he caught it, I'm not sure I would have called it clutch. If it were a more difficult catch or if the DB were draped all over him even more, I would have definitely termed it "clutch".
Ok. Then now I'm confused. Weren't you one of the people saying that Bowe isn't clutch because he dropped that ball?
Posted via Mobile Device

[BigVE]

I think the whole "clutch" term is over-used throughout sports. To me, it would apply to a situation in the game where the pressure or circumstances were not "normal"...and that could come at any time. Generally, "clutch" tends to be used more at the end of a game and generally I would agree with that statement. HUGE free throws at the end of a game, thousands of fans screaming and the game is LITERALLY on the line if you make them or miss them. Make them? Clutch. The myth of that whole thing is how many other non-"clutch" baskets were made or missed to get you to that point? So, it's all subjective I think. Similar scenario's are played out each and every week of almost each and every game in all different sports. Clutch defined, IMO, is: performing exceptionally well in a higher than normal pressure situation in a game or event that has direct implications on the final outcome of the game.

[Phobia]

Ok. Then now I'm confused. Weren't you one of the people saying that Bowe isn't clutch because he dropped that ball?
Posted via Mobile Device

I said it wasn't a "clutch" play. It wasn't, clearly. I don't get too wrapped up with labels. I haven't really given a second thought into whether I consider Bowe a "clutch" player.

[Phobia]

would you have spelled exclusive with a "c" or not with a "c"?

LMAOLMAOLMAO

Heh. Typo. Oops. Yes, I know I spelled it that way twice. I cut and pasted.

[crazycoffey]

It's a "wow" moment in the game. Anytime in the game

Facing 3rd and long at anytime in the game, a dump to charles and he weaves his way, bounces off a defender or two and pushes through the tackle at the first down marker to get the first down and extend the drive. I don't care if we had two false starts and two rushes for -5 five yards before that type of play, it would be clutch.

Now late in the game when you really need it, and it happens, is when the wow factor comes out most of the time.

[cabletech94]

Heh. Typo. Oops. Yes, I know I spelled it that way twice. I cut and pasted.

merry christmas to you too Phobes!!!!

[crazycoffey]

would you have spelled exclusive with a "c" or not with a "c"?

LMAOLMAOLMAO

oh, ex"c"lusive, now I know what phobia was asking. I couldn't figure it out spelled without that darn "c". Let me change my answer now....


:rolleyes:

[cabletech94]

oh, ex"c"lusive, now I know what phobia was asking. I couldn't figure it out spelled without that darn "c". Let me change my answer now....


:rolleyes:

i was hoping someone else would "c" that. good work!

[hometeam]

I think that it does not always have to be at the end of a contest, but just at the end of whatever time period you are talking about.

That could mean the end of a game, end of a season, end of a career, end of a drive as stated somewhere earlier in the thread

And end is subjective as well. It could be a key possession at the end of the third quarter where a guy makes a play, which cuases everything to favor his team to a comeback victory, that can be considered clutch too.

[mlyonsd]

A pitcher can start game 7 of the world series, throw a shutout, and it would be considered a clutch performance.

A kicker could line up for a 49 yard field go on the last play of the game for the win, and it would be considered a clutch kick. Well I mean if it wasn't blocked or anything silly like that.

[Predarat]

It is at the end of the game alot of the time, but not always. Its performing well in tough, stressful, or adverse conditions.

[Phobia]

So - follow-up question then. If somebody said very definitively, "you cannot be clutch in the 2nd quarter" would you agree or disagree?

[TrickyNicky]

You can be clutch at any time in the game, but it is exclusive to something, either some measurable or how many opportunities your team has left. For instance, you can be clutch on 3rd down at any time in the game. Same with a 2 minute drive, even if it is just the end of the first half.

[Phobia]

You can be clutch at any time in the game, but it is exclusive to something, either some measurable or how many opportunities your team has left. For instance, you can be clutch on 3rd down at any time in the game. Same with a 2 minute drive, even if it is just the end of the first half.

I agree with all of this.

[Phobia]

I think that it does not always have to be at the end of a contest, but just at the end of whatever time period you are talking about.

That could mean the end of a game, end of a season, end of a career, end of a drive as stated somewhere earlier in the thread

And end is subjective as well. It could be a key possession at the end of the third quarter where a guy makes a play, which cuases everything to favor his team to a comeback victory, that can be considered clutch too.

Don't think it has to do with the "end" of anything although I do understand why you believe that. It's basically a key play under pressure. Don't even think it has to be on 3rd or 4th down. It can be a great pass, catch, pass defensed, sack, or even a tackle.

[milkman]

The thing is, regardless of how you define clutch, not every great clutch player is going to come through in every clutch situation, or play.

Not even Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw or Bart Starr, who I would consider among the greatest clutch players that I've ever seen, came through in every situation.

The question you have to ask is this, does that player come through more or less in the clutch?

[Phobia]

The thing is, regardless of how you define clutch, not every great clutch player is going to come through in every clutch situation, or play.

Not even Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw or Bart Starr, who I would consider among the greatest clutch players that I've ever seen, came through in every situation.

The question you have to ask is this, does that player come through more or less in the clutch?

I would suggest that the #53 player on a team can make a clutch play. Applying the label "clutch player" is an entirely different debate and one that is probably very subjective.

[milkman]

I would suggest that the #53 player on a team can make a clutch play. Applying the label "clutch player" is an entirely different debate and one that is probably very subjective.

It is subjective.

Is Peyton Manning clutch?

Is he a choker?

I would answer choker, because he has failed todeliver in the biggest moments in the biggest games.

Others have argued adamantly with that.

So, at the end of the day, what's the point of even defining clutch?

Everyone is going to have a different opinion.

[Jawshco]

100 011 1010 1

[Demonpenz]

clutch plays are either to win the game, to keep pace with the other team, or to keep them from falling behind from too far to come back. I would think when a team scores and then a team comes right back to score it is a clutch play, I think that getting a touchdown to keep them in the game is cluch and I think a touchdown to win the game is clutch

[Easy 6]

There are degrees of clutchness, and they can occur at any time in the game. The end of the game means the most, but a QB threading the needle on 3rd and goal for a TD when the team was down two scores in the second quarter is a damned clutch play.

This

[Mr. Laz]

Clutch is about the pressure that comes from an important play.

When you need a big play and a guy wants the ball, wants the play and then makes it.

Usually later in the game provides more pressure and bigger clutch plays but it can happen any time.

making a random big play isn't really clutch, it's talent and/or luck.

Bowe has made a few clutch plays but he's missed more, many more than he's made.

[ROYC75]

So - follow-up question then. If somebody said very definitively, "you cannot be clutch in the 2nd quarter" would you agree or disagree?

Disagree. Many big plays, clutch plays happen just before a half ends. Many times it has bearing on the outcome of a game.

[milkman]

Clutch is about the pressure that comes from an important play.

When you need a big play and a guy wants the ball, wants the play and then makes it.

Usually later in the game provides more pressure and bigger clutch plays but it can happen any time.

making a random big play isn't really clutch, it's talent and/or luck.

Bowe has made a few clutch plays but he's missed more, many more than he's made.

The problem is that his drops in these type of situations are magnified, while his catches aren't.

As Phobia said just earlier in this thread, he would not have considered it a clutch catch, while the drop is failing in the clutch.

His drops against Indy and Oakland last year were failure in the clutch.

But how many catches and plays has he made in the first or second qtrs of game over the years that are just looked upon as routine plays?

[cdcox]

A clutch player can be considered one who performs well in high leverage situations.

Mathematically it can be computed for baseball and football as the Win Probability Added.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_probability_added

Advanced NFL Stats tabulates WPA for individual skill players.

Bowe is rated as the 55th most clutch WR in the NFL this year by WPA.

[JoeyChuckles]

I'm watching lesbian porn on Christmas night. That's clutch.

[kcxiv]

Clutch is when you need a first down and you make the tough catch, make the tough throw. Doesnt have to be end of the game. Just has to be in a crucial situation. Something that can keep some momentum going or ruin momentum.

[Phobia]

Clutch is when you need a first down and you make the tough catch, make the tough throw. Doesnt have to be end of the game. Just has to be in a crucial situation. Something that can keep some momentum going or ruin momentum.

Precisely. Don't know why this definition is all jacked for many others.

[Fritz88]

A clutch player can be considered one who performs well in high leverage situations.

Mathematically it can be computed for baseball and football as the Win Probability Added.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_probability_added

Advanced NFL Stats tabulates WPA for individual skill players.

Bowe is rated as the 55th most clutch WR in the NFL this year by WPA.

Who is number one?

I am pretty sure Santonio Holmes is high up on that list.

[jspchief]

Clutch is being dependable when you really need it.

For example, in a game where your offense is struggling, your WR catches everything.

[TimeForWasp]

Bowe is clutch, but sometimes he will double clutch.

[htismaqe]

The problem is that his drops in these type of situations are magnified, while his catches aren't.

As Phobia said just earlier in this thread, he would not have considered it a clutch catch, while the drop is failing in the clutch.

His drops against Indy and Oakland last year were failure in the clutch.

But how many catches and plays has he made in the first or second qtrs of game over the years that are just looked upon as routine plays?

This.

[htismaqe]

Precisely. Don't know why this definition is all jacked for many others.

You hear commentators in all sports say it all the time. "Clutch" is used interchangeably with the stretch run of a game...

[Ultra Peanut]

i'm david eckstein irl

[cdcox]

Who is number one?

I am pretty sure Santonio Holmes is high up on that list.

Wes Welker is number one by a good margin.

Holmes is 75th for this season.

[Fritz88]

Wes Welker is number one by a good margin.

Holmes is 75th for this season.

Thanks.

I thought he came up big for the Jets.

Maybe that was Last year.
Posted via Mobile Device

[jAZ]

I voted option #1 though the real answer IMO is 1.5 (which wasn't included). It's not "any time in a contest" nor is it only at the end either.

It's delivering at a moment of pressure. The end of the game delivers the highest pressure moment, but it's possible for other moments to be pressure. Down by 25 at half time and delivering 5 TDs in the 2nd half to put you up by 10 with 2 minutes to go means you were clutch well before the end of the game.

[jd1020]

I voted option #1 though the real answer IMO is 1.5 (which wasn't included). It's not "any time in a contest" nor is it only at the end either.

It's delivering at a moment of pressure. The end of the game delivers the highest pressure moment, but it's possible for other moments to be pressure. Down by 25 at half time and delivering 5 TDs in the 2nd half to put you up by 10 with 2 minutes to go means you were clutch well before the end of the game.

I'm not sure how this does not land in the "any time in a contest" option.

[Phobia]

I voted option #1 though the real answer IMO is 1.5 (which wasn't included). It's not "any time in a contest" nor is it only at the end either.

It's delivering at a moment of pressure. The end of the game delivers the highest pressure moment, but it's possible for other moments to be pressure. Down by 25 at half time and delivering 5 TDs in the 2nd half to put you up by 10 with 2 minutes to go means you were clutch well before the end of the game.

I'll admit that the wording leaves much to be desired. Had an argument with a guy who said that "you cannot be clutch in the 2nd quarter'. I wanted to make the poll very fair so I used very generic words so my own bias wasn't swaying voters. If I had been a little more specific, I'm sure this poll would have been about 94/6 instead of 80/20.

[Phobia]

I'm not sure how this does not land in the "any time in a contest" option.

Jaz is one of them liberals... He's often perfectly reasonably in his thinking but he needs a couple of days and prodding towards the correct answer.

[Bowser]

I thought it was going to be one of these threads....

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