comprehensive investigation find Saints defense and coaches guilty...

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora Close
NFL announces a comprehensive investigation find Saints defense and coaches guilty of violating NFL rules by having bounties on opponents..

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora Close
Much, much more to come of this and will get the entire press release out ASAP

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Close
NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Close
Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Close
NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL investigation of Saints began in 2010 when allegations were made that Saints targeted QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.

[Sofa King]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjOqTfODm35--2uUllvA8LhZrNeRaihXQqDVg93ND4lcPxI6WKSw

[Mr_Tomahawk]

http://blog.200nipples.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/url.jpg

[Bane]

Jakes on them!!!

[Hoover]

what is a bounty program?

[Mr_Tomahawk]

http://cdn.jockpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/manning-neckbrace-255x300.jpg
"I told you guys...!"

[El Jefe]

Jakes on them!!!

Hey, don't steal my lines!!!

[the Talking Can]

http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/5/5f/Bscap0331.jpg

[Bane]

Seriously BFD.Performance incentives in my opinion.Play to win motherfuckers!

[chiefzilla1501]

what is a bounty program?

Wondered the same.

Looked it up. It's basically starting a fund to reward players for injuring opposing players.

[the Talking Can]

if they were dumb enough to formalize this and leave a paper trail, they deserve to get hammered...

[patteeu]

Gregg Williams appears to have a little MOhillbilly in him.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Seriously BFD.Performance incentives in my opinion.Play to win mother****ers!

Performance incentives to win are OK. Incentives to injure other players are not OK.

[BigRichard]

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images/uploads/appletell/bill-guilty-superman.jpg

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
League has yet to decide discipline on Saints or any individuals for the bounty violations. It will be discussed at the March league meeting

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
According to the NFL, the bounty pool totaled upwards of $50K at times w/ payments for "knock-out hits" w/ players and coaches contributing

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL investigation says Saints coaches and GM Mickey Loomis did not intervene to stop bounties when owner Tom Benson instructed them to

[Okie_Apparition]

:hmmm:
I can't imagine why Jeff Fisher wanted Gregg

[Mr_Tomahawk]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82757bcd/article/nfl-says-saints-created-bounty-program-from-20092011?module=HP11_breaking_news

NFL says Saints created 'bounty' program from 2009-2011

After a lengthy investigation conducted by the NFL's security department, the league announced Friday that 22 to 27 defensive players on the New Orleans Saints maintained a "pay for performance" program that included "bounty" payments administered by then-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams during the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons.

The program runs in violation of league rules, and the investigation showed that Saints players received $1,500 for a “knockout” hit and $1,000 for a “cart-off” hit with payouts doubling or tripling during the team's three playoff appearances. The program also entailed payments for interceptions and fumble recoveries, which also violates league rules against non-contract bonuses. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell will determine the appropriate discipline based on the investigation, the league said in a statement.


"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for ‘performance,’ but also for injuring opposing players,” Goodell said in a statement released by the league. “The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity.

“It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it.”

Goodell said the investigation began in 2010 after allegations were made that the Saints defenders had targeted Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner and Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre during their 2009 run to the Super Bowl.

"Our security department interviewed numerous players and other individuals," Goodell said. "At the time, those interviewed denied that any such program existed and the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions. As a result, the allegations could not be proven. We recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was re-opened during the latter part of the 2011 season.”


The investigation found the program was funded primarily by players and at one time might have reached $50,000. The league also said that other defensive coaches in addition to Williams, now the St. Louis Rams defensive coordinator, were aware of the program.

The Saints have gained a reputation in league circles as a dirty team in recent years, and Vikings running back Adrian Peterson said this past season that the Saints targeted his high left ankle sprain.

"I felt like it kind of got overboard," Peterson said at the time. "I got up and kind of got in his face. Thank God I was able to keep my composure."

The Saints denied Peterson's claims.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Close
#Saints don't have 1st-round pick this year after Mark Ingram trade. NFL may eat away at rest of 2012 draft, look at 1st-rounder in 2013.

[Saulbadguy]

Gregg Williams appears to have a little MOhillbilly in him.

heh

[L.A. Chieffan]

Get out now brees

[doomy3]

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Close
#Saints don't have 1st-round pick this year after Mark Ingram trade. NFL may eat away at rest of 2012 draft, look at 1st-rounder in 2013.

:eek:

[Chiefnj2]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82757bcd/article/nfl-says-saints-created-bounty-program-from-20092011?module=HP11_breaking_news

NFL says Saints created 'bounty' program from 2009-2011

After a lengthy investigation conducted by the NFL's security department, the league announced Friday that 22 to 27 defensive players on the New Orleans Saints maintained a "pay for performance" program that included "bounty" payments administered by then-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams during the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons.


The investigation found the program was funded primarily by players and at one time might have reached $50,000. The league also said that other defensive coaches in addition to Williams, now the St. Louis Rams defensive coordinator, were aware of the program.



I think those two paragraphs conflict with each other.

Big difference, IMO, between the DC "administering" the program and being "aware" that players had a bonus system between them.

[RealSNR]

WHO DAT GONNA GET TARGETED NEXT

[RealSNR]

It's a shame they didn't put a bounty on Marshawn Lynch. Could have saved themselves quite a bit of embarrassment.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Close
A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

[WhiteWhale]

Yanno, I remember when they won the SB people were speculating if they were going out of their way to injure Warner and Favre. They got away with more than a few late hits in both games that were just blatant.

[Dayze]

that hit on Warner after that INT was insane.

edit..."Block" on warner

[Okie_Apparition]

New Orleans has officially fully recovered from Katrina

[stonedstooge]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Close
A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

That's bullshit

[Urc Burry]

That's bullshit

So intentionally trying to hurt other players isn't as bad as taping a walk-thru?

Ignore the sound, but this was ridiculous
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6i1tkbcxIno" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Sofa King]

That's bullshit

Why?

Videotaping < Trying to purposely hurt players.

[DBOSHO]

@CaptTouchback: In light of the Saints' "bounty program", the NFL has fined the Steelers' James Harrison $50,000. "Roger" that! @realfreemancbs

[Chiefnj2]

Why?

Videotaping < Trying to purposely hurt players.

No way.

Even without a bounty players purposefully attempt to hurt and knock out other players.

[DBOSHO]

In all seriousness, the saints are gonna get fucked hard.

[stonedstooge]

Why?

Videotaping < Trying to purposely hurt players.

Trying to hurt someone happens every game, there is no competitive advantage.
Videotaping is a direct attempt at gaining a competitive advantage

[pr_capone]

that hit on Warner after that INT was insane.

edit..."Block" on warner

Perfectly legal too. If that had been a RB getting decleated after the pic no one would say a thing but that hit was vicious.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pC1T1tAbA4s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Sofa King]

Trying to hurt someone happens every game, there is no competitive advantage.
Videotaping is a direct attempt at gaining a competitive advantage

And taking out their fucking QB isn't??

Come on man...

[Okie_Apparition]

Money is involved
it could lean more towards gambling

[stonedstooge]

And taking out their ****ing QB isn't??

Come on man...

They try to do that almost every play don't they?

[Bane]

Ok fine...$$$ being involved is one thing but just saying "take that motherfucker out boys" is totally fine.Football not bitchball..For now anyway.

[Okie_Apparition]

Marty(rumor) offered to pay fines
this is financial gain

[The Franchise]

Fuck the Saints. I've never liked that team.

[whoman69]

Could have cap implications as well.

[Okie_Apparition]

$10,000 on Favre hit(rumor NFL Live)
I'd be more worried about the IRS

[big nasty kcnut]

it's stupid having a reward system for hard hit and fumble and int. are ok. but if they did it to disable a guy then that not cool.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Clark Judge‏@ClarkJudgeCBSReply
Retweet

Favorite
· Open

League says it has 18,000 documents of over 50,000 pages in Saints' investigation. Staggering.

[Okie_Apparition]

Did Daboll work for 'em

[Carlota69]

Gregg Williams apologizes for “terrible mistake”
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 2, 2012, 5:27 PM EST
Gregg Williams AP

Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has publicly apologized, hours after the NFL announced that Williams had violated league rules by orchestrating a system of bounties during his time on the staff of the Saints.

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

Williams isn’t making any type of effort to deny or minimize his role in this: He broke the rules, he knows he broke the rules, and he knows consequences are coming.

The question now is what kind of consequences will be coming. The Saints are sure to be disciplined by the league office, but if the Rams lose their defensive coordinator to a lengthy suspension, then two teams will be directly affected by this still unfolding story.

[Al Bundy]

Good the Aints can suck it. Fuck them and their 7 years later people are still talking about that hurricane.

[Okie_Apparition]

Make Williams play a game in London for the next 3 years

[TheGuardian]

Every team does this. They just got caught.

[Hammock Parties]

This is cool as fuck. This is how it should be.

[Mr. Laz]

if they were dumb enough to formalize this and leave a paper trail, they deserve to get hammered...

this

[TheGuardian]

This is cool as ****. This is how it should be.

What I think is funny is the hypocrisy of the fans who go "put a skirt on em!" when someone goes helmet to helmet, but then is all up in arms when they hear shit like this.

It's football. STFU. People try to injured people every game. JFC.

[RUSH]

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again

Translation: I'm sorry that I got caught.

Never liked that douchebag.

[Al Bundy]

What I think is funny is the hypocrisy of the fans who go "put a skirt on em!" when someone goes helmet to helmet, but then is all up in arms when they hear shit like this.

It's football. STFU. People try to injured people every game. JFC.

The helmet to helmet thing is dumb for both players, however intentionally trying to blow knees out is a whole other thing all together.

[TheGuardian]

The helmet to helmet thing is dumb for both players, however intentionally trying to blow knees out is a whole other thing all together.

You're right. I'd much rather be paralyzed than have a blown out knee.

Oh wait..........

[Al Bundy]

You're right. I'd much rather be paralyzed than have a blown out knee.

Oh wait..........

What I am saying is that if player A goes head to head with player B then it is just a dumbass thing to do because player A stands just as much of a chance to be paralyzed as player B. Player A going after someones knee is worse because player A has little chance of blowing out his own knee doing it.

[Urc Burry]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

Take away their first :)

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Take away thier tags :evil:

[Okie_Apparition]

Yeah
Stevie Johnson is going to meet a truck over the summer

[Dylan]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

Take away their first :)

Albert Breer ‏ @AlbertBreer Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
From the NFL investigation: "The bounty program was administered by DC Gregg Williams with the knowledge of other defensive coaches."

Albert Breer ‏ @AlbertBreer Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Very difficult here not to think of the Buddy Ryan Bounty Bowl. Gregg Williams, of course, is part of Buddy's tree of defensive coaches.

The Saints knocked out Hakeem Nicks!

Greg Williams should be removed from the NFL as soon as possible.

Jeff Fisher and Greg Williams -- It doesn't get any dirtier than that.

[stonedstooge]

Greg Williams should be removed from the NFL as soon as possible.

Jeff Fisher and Greg Williams -- It doesn't get any dirtier than that.

Says the Kyle Busch fan.:D

[Crush]

He is the most overrated DC in the game today.

[kstater]

He is the most overrated DC in the game today.

Schwartz kept Gunther didn't he?

[Dylan]

Says the Kyle Busch fan.:D

:D Oh please, don't remind me of a couple of NASCAR hatin' divas!

Hate the driver / Hate their fans (insert Diva name)

How lucky are they to be posting on a football forum and not a hardcore NASCAR forum. :D

stonedstooge, http://www.powwows.com/gathering/images/smilies/stirthepot.gif

[Dylan]

The Saints' 2009-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000 for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.

The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2009 and 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents.

New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March. Mar. 2 - 3:35 pm et

According to the NFL, the bounty pool totaled upwards of $50K at times w/ payments for "knock-out hits" w/ players and coaches contributing

Source: ESPN.com

[kysirsoze]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

Take away their first :)


I know you're sorta joking, but I don't see why not. It's not like there's a set statute of limitations on this sort of thing is there?

[mikey23545]

So I guess the Saints are on the same level as that toilet bowl of a city they play in.

[TheGuardian]

The Saints' 2009-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000 for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.

The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2009 and 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents.

New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March. Mar. 2 - 3:35 pm et



Source: ESPN.com

This sounds awesome.

God I wish I had played in the NFL in the AFC West. I woulda been injuring Raider and Donk players twice a year.

[Dylan]

Too bad they weren't able to take a bounty out on grass fields.

Saints' record shows they can't win on grass.

[Dylan]

Excerpts from The New York Times Fifth Down:

February 2, 2010, 7:30 am

Do the Saints Play Dirty?

Many Fifth Down readers have objected to the Saints’ mauling of quarterbacks — Kurt Warner, then Brett Favre — during the postseason. A few days after the battering of Favre, the Saints’ defensive coordinator, Gregg Williams, went on a Nashville radio station and took verbal aim at the Colts’ Peyton Manning:

“This guy’s got a great clock in his head,” Williams told 104.5 The Zone. “The big thing is that he throws the ball so early that we’re going to have to do a good job of finding ways to get to him, and when we do get to him we’re going to have to make sure he gets a couple ‘remember me’ shots when we get there.”

When asked if he wanted his players to try to “knock out” QBs, Williams said: “I sure hope so and I am not going to apologize for it either. You kill the head and the body will die. That’s usually how it goes, you hit the quarterback and the whole team feels it. We are hoping to continue it this week.”

Will Williams feel the same way if the Colts similarly decide to target Drew Brees for Williams-style cheap-shot “kills”? Better yet, why not have all the defensive coordinators adopt Williams’s philosophy? Why not eliminate the roughing the passer penalties and just put bull’s eyes on the QBs’ jerseys? We could have the games decided by who knocks out the most QBs. That would eliminate all that boring passing. Games can be decided purely by who injures the most opponents — sort of like pro wrestling but with real injuries.”


Saints defensive coach Gregg Williams when asked about his players worrying about getting 15-yard penalties for hitting Peyton Manning:

“Here’s the deal. When you put too much of that type of worry on a warrior’s mind, he doesn’t play all out. If it happens, it happens. And the only thing you’d like for me to say is that if it happens YOU HOPE HE DOESN’T GET BACK UP AND PLAY AGAIN.” (emphasis added)

Williams’s bluster about burying Manning could backfire. Officials will probably be watching closely for any rough treatment. And Manning and the Colts’ offensive line will have a little extra motivation.

But Williams knows he needs to get to Manning, who has had success against him: 70 percent passing and 14 scores in 24 drives, according to Peter King, SI.com:

Darren Sharper told me Sunday the Saints’ mission against Favre was, “Cut off the head, and the body will die.”

I can guarantee you that inside the Saints’ facility this week, Williams will be telling his men, “See? It worked against Favre; he threw a terrible pass near the end of the fourth quarter because we beat him up all game. We can do the same thing to Manning if we abuse him.”

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/do-the-saints-play-dirty/

[Dylan]

According to SI.com, a specific play involving Vilma was included in the N.F.L.’s report sent to N.F.L. owners on Friday. Before the N.F.C. championship game in the 2009 season, Vilma was said to have offered $10,000 to any teammate who was able to knock Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the game.

The report drew a very strong reaction on Twitter, from players, journalists and fans. (Vilma, seemingly unfazed by the angry response by fans, retweeted a few sentiments from his followers that are not fit to print here because of the graphic language.)

Source: The New York Times

[xztop12]

None of the stuff im seeing in these youtube vids were nearly as dirty as the cheap shot that tore Berrys ACL

[kysirsoze]

The funny thing is how shocked people are. I've always thought it was absurd how everyone wanted to paint the Saints as the good guys just because of a hurricane. When Williams came out and openly admitted he told his guys to knock out QBs everyone ignored it cause, "Gosh, that Drew Brees sure seems like a swell guy."

[kysirsoze]

None of the stuff im seeing in these youtube vids were nearly as dirty as the cheap shot that tore Berrys ACL

OK, but they're actually illegal. The hit on Berry wasn't.

[Dylan]

Uh, oh: P. M-----g Neck Injury

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7nBxHse5s74?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7nBxHse5s74?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>


Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams had a bounty on Colts quarterback RGIII RGIII in Super Bowl XLIV. But while it didn’t result in an injury to RGIII, his former coach in Indianapolis believes it wasn’t the first time that knocking RGIII out of a game would have gotten a player paid.

Tony Dungy of NBC’s Football Night in America tells PFT that he believes the Titans had put a bounty on RGIII.

“I know they had them in Tennessee,” Dungy said via text.

Williams worked for the Oilers/Titans through 2000 under coach Jeff Fisher. Dungy became coach of the Colts in 2002, when a realignment of the divisions put the Colts and Titans in the newly-created AFC South, pitting the two teams against each other twice per season.

Coincidentally, Fisher and Williams have now been reunited, in St. Louis. Which will make even more interesting a decision by RGIII to sign with one of the Rams’ NFC West rivals: the Cardinals, Seahawks, or 49ers.

Even more coincidentally, Dungy explained during a 2011 preseason edition of Football Night in America that he believes a 2006 hit on RGIII RGIII first caused his ongoing neck problems.

The man delivering the hit? Phillip Daniels. His team? The Redskins.

The defensive coordinator at the time? Gregg Williams.

Source: NBC Sports

Greg Williams should be beheaded in a stadium a la Saudi Arabia does (once a month on Thursdays).

That'll leave a mark!

[ClevelandBronco]

Gregg Williams apologizes for “terrible mistake”
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 2, 2012, 5:27 PM EST
Gregg Williams AP

Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has publicly apologized, hours after the NFL announced that Williams had violated league rules by orchestrating a system of bounties during his time on the staff of the Saints.

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

Williams isn’t making any type of effort to deny or minimize his role in this: He broke the rules, he knows he broke the rules, and he knows consequences are coming.

The question now is what kind of consequences will be coming. The Saints are sure to be disciplined by the league office, but if the Rams lose their defensive coordinator to a lengthy suspension, then two teams will be directly affected by this still unfolding story.

I'd hate to see the Rams penalized. I think having Williams forfeit one year's pay would probably end this foolishness once and for all.

[Bump]

damn dude, that's fucked up.

[beach tribe]

That's bullshit


This post is BS. Seriously. They should be HAMMERED for this.

[beach tribe]

None of the stuff im seeing in these youtube vids were nearly as dirty as the cheap shot that tore Berrys ACL

Not quite the same. Though, that hit ruined the whole 2011 season for me. I never got over that shit. Berry was on course to be my favorite Chief of all time. I was really looking forward to him fucking up the league last year.
Here's to praying he comes back 100%, and picks up where he left off.
I think it will be easier for him than Charles, considering JC's speed is his ultimate weapon.

[MOhillbilly]

it's stupid having a reward system for hard hit and fumble and int. are ok. but if they did it to disable a guy then that not cool.

:hmmm:

[Dylan]

J Vilma is getting killed on Twitter

http://twitter.com/#!/jonvilma51

[Disgruntled_Parent via SR's IP in GA]

People - this is why you should get your children involved in safe sports such as tennis or golf!

[Hammock Parties]

People - this is why you should get your children involved in safe sports such as tennis or golf!

or pool

[beach tribe]

People - this is why you should get your children involved in safe sports such as tennis or golf!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RmJQTkZ8u0o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-Rx6wg3g3dc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Pasta Little Brioni]

NONE OF OUR PRECIOUS R SAFE!!!

[notorious]

You're right. I'd much rather be paralyzed than have a blown out knee.

Oh wait..........

Actually, during several interviews of NFL players on the radio players have stated that they would much rather take a head shot then get hit in the knees.


A blown out knee will take you out for the year instead of a few weeks.

[TheGuardian]

Actually, during several interviews of NFL players on the radio players have stated that they would much rather take a head shot then get hit in the knees.


A blown out knee will take you out for the year instead of a few weeks.

And too many concussions will do what?

I think everyone should be aware that taking violent shots to the head has more far reaching effects and consequences than a blown out knee.

Again, I find it hilarious that guys cry about the helmet to helmet rule, then act all up in arms about this shit. Which has gone on FOREVER!

JFC it's a collision sport made up of rosters, sometimes a quarter of which have been to jail.

Who really cares about this shit besides the actual NFL? I love it. I'm glad they hit Favre late and fucked up the last playoff game of his career. I hated that bitch.

I only wish we had someone that would put in bounties on Raider players.

[Dave Lane]

Perfectly legal too. If that had been a RB getting decleated after the pic no one would say a thing but that hit was vicious.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pC1T1tAbA4s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I had that exact same thing happen to me in flag football. dislocated shoulder, broken bone in my hand various bruises. Its how it goes.

That said I'd like to see Williams get the NFL death penalty and Saints hammered.

[notorious]

And too many concussions will do what?

I think everyone should be aware that taking violent shots to the head has more far reaching effects and consequences than a blown out knee.

Again, I find it hilarious that guys cry about the helmet to helmet rule, then act all up in arms about this shit. Which has gone on FOREVER!

JFC it's a collision sport made up of rosters, sometimes a quarter of which have been to jail.

Who really cares about this shit besides the actual NFL? I love it. I'm glad they hit Favre late and ****ed up the last playoff game of his career. I hated that bitch.

I only wish we had someone that would put in bounties on Raider players.

I don't disagree, I was just relaying what I have heard in interviews.

Players aren't the smartest bunch, they are just thinking short term pay-check instead of sitting in a dark room at age 48 considering suicide.

Football is football, and the players know the score.

[chiefzilla1501]

And too many concussions will do what?

I think everyone should be aware that taking violent shots to the head has more far reaching effects and consequences than a blown out knee.

Again, I find it hilarious that guys cry about the helmet to helmet rule, then act all up in arms about this shit. Which has gone on FOREVER!

JFC it's a collision sport made up of rosters, sometimes a quarter of which have been to jail.

Who really cares about this shit besides the actual NFL? I love it. I'm glad they hit Favre late and ****ed up the last playoff game of his career. I hated that bitch.

I only wish we had someone that would put in bounties on Raider players.

The problem I have with it is that it motivates players to play dirty football instead of playing it the right way. Here's why I'm bothered by this. If you're facing the Colts, one cheap shot to Peyton Manning that knocks him into a concussion takes him out for the entire game. You may get rung up with a 15-yard penalty, but it was worth it because you put your opponent at a severe disadvantage. If the NFL doesn't try to crack down on this stuff, you're opening the game up to teams cheap shotting other players in order to gain a competitive advantage. If you're in the same division as Brady, go after his knees. No better way to win the division than to take a QB out for the entire season.

I get that this makes it tough, then, to judge what's incidental and what's purposeful. But I'd rather see good players play competitively on the field than see a league full of subpar teams that fall into oblivion because they lost a ton of their star players.

[Hammock Parties]

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/428357_231478290282136_2072033178_n.jpg

[Dylan]

America! America! God shed His grace on thee. And crown thy good with brotherhood. From sea to shining sea!

http://www.rletc.com/images/smilies/extras/smiley20whistling.gif

NYT Pick
The difference between a hard hit to intimidate and a hard hit to collect a bounty for injury is called "criminal intent." The difference between one player out of line and two or more people setting up such a system with money involved is called "criminal conspiracy."
....

This has got to be one of the easiest calls of Goodell's overpaid career: lifetime ban from the NFL for Gregg Williams (seriously, the guy "administered" this?) and long--very long--suspensions for every player who participated and every coach who knew but did nothing. A serious fine wouldn't hurt either. Goodell can send all the memos he wants about bounties, but they will continue to be a joke unless he shows some guts here.
....

I don't understand why this article is focusing on the question of whether NFL rules were broken, when it's clear that there were any number of serious felonies committed.
....

NYT Pick
"18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages"

Those athletes and their superiors participating in these crimes, if convicted, should serve jail time applicable to aggravated assault. Nothing less would serve as an appropriate punishment. Monetary fines are a joke and would not change anything.
....

This should not be viewed as just another "dirty trick" like others common in professional sports....it seems to me that serious felonies may have been committed here: grievous bodily harm and conspiracy to commit such harm. This should be looked into by law enforcement officials, though no one seems to have noted this obvious fact.
....

Isn't an illegal assault a criminal matter? Where are the DA.'s? Tell me they aren't in the owners boxes?
....

This is beyond shameful. Ban all complicit coaches permanently from the NFL. Heavily fine and suspend all players involved.

This is truly abhorrent, NFL needs to send a strong and lasting message.
....

Paying someone to intentionally hurt someone else is a felony everywhere but the NFL?
....

You have to love the NFLPA and players suing for serious injuries sustained while playing professional football and then having it come out that its own members are putting money up to cause those same injuries that cause so many problems later in their lives.
....

Where is the I.R.S. in all this under the table money?
True Dat! LMAO
....


NYT Pick
Interesting that the NFL releases this "3 year old" investigation when numerous Saints players are suing the NFL due to concussions and looking the other way. Too much conflicting information here. Too much power with the commissioner. The NFL appears to be singling out one team to go to court with. This isn't good for the game at all. But its become so hyped now, I guess its becoming not worth watching.

New Orleans Saints' reader ^

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/sports/football/nfl-says-saints-had-bounty-program-to-injure-opponents.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fsports%2Ffootball%2Findex.jsonp

[TheGuardian]

The problem I have with it is that it motivates players to play dirty football instead of playing it the right way. Here's why I'm bothered by this. If you're facing the Colts, one cheap shot to Peyton Manning that knocks him into a concussion takes him out for the entire game. You may get rung up with a 15-yard penalty, but it was worth it because you put your opponent at a severe disadvantage. If the NFL doesn't try to crack down on this stuff, you're opening the game up to teams cheap shotting other players in order to gain a competitive advantage. If you're in the same division as Brady, go after his knees. No better way to win the division than to take a QB out for the entire season.

I get that this makes it tough, then, to judge what's incidental and what's purposeful. But I'd rather see good players play competitively on the field than see a league full of subpar teams that fall into oblivion because they lost a ton of their star players.

If it's the other team, I could give a shit. I love to see Raider players go down with injuries. Makes my day. Even better when it's intentional.

[ClevelandBronco]

As one who remembers the NHL's reaction to the conspiratorial felony that Todd Bertuzzi and Marc Crawford committed against Steve Moore, I will be surprised if much of the stuff you just posted is taken into account by the NFL, Dylan.

[TheGuardian]

This kind of thing is why I love the NFL.

"If you hurt that mother fucker I'll pay you $2500!"

"Ok!"

1. Throws cheap shot

2. ???

3. Profit

[stonedstooge]

Looked up the penalty totals for last year. New Orleans doesn't stick out in any way. Wouldn't the officials, who called games looking to increase enforcement of contact penalties, have picked up on New Orleans illegal bounties? I don't agree with what the Aint's did on paper, but did it really translate into the game?

[TheGuardian]

Looked up the penalty totals for last year. New Orleans doesn't stick out in any way. Wouldn't the officials, who called games looking to increase enforcement of contact penalties, have picked up on New Orleans illegal bounties? I don't agree with what the Aint's did on paper, but did it really translate into the game?

Not really. Which is why I have trouble with all of this.

If they had bounties, which almost EVERY team does (just more hush hush), then why weren't there tons of guys injured against them?

I don't mind them fucking up Favre at all. I loved that shit.

[KurtCobain]

I still think Williams should be our coach.

[TheGuardian]

.......apparently as it's coming out now, the pool wasn't just an injury pool. It was for big plays and interceptions and all sorts of shit.

[Dylan]

I'm waiting for the media to read "18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages"

The I.R.S. will be there with their calculator every step of the way. Behind the scenes of course.

[chefsos]

I'm waiting for the media to read "18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages"

The I.R.S. will be there with their calculator every step of the way. Behind the scenes of course.If the pool is primarily players' money and the IRS wants to tax the winnings, are the contributions then tax deductible?

[reschief]

Just heard on ABC news that Washington Redskins are now under a investigation for the same type of bounty system. Could this effect their ability to move up in this years draft?

[TheGuardian]

Just heard on ABC news that Washington Redskins are now under a investigation for the same type of bounty system. Could this effect their ability to move up in this years draft?

I'm not for trading up to draft RGIII, however, I think it would be amazingly hilarious that Ratboy's team would be penalized in the draft because of shit that happened years before he got there. And he'd miss out on drafting him.

Seems like Karma to me, seeing how that POS cheated to get those two SB wins in Denver.

[reschief]

I'm not for trading up to draft RGIII, however, I think it would be amazingly hilarious that Ratboy's team would be penalized in the draft because of shit that happened years before he got there. And he'd miss out on drafting him.

Seems like Karma to me, seeing how that POS cheated to get those two SB wins in Denver.

I guess the pam non-stick spray on jerseys just wasn't enough of an edge to win? Maybe the Donko's had a bounty system under ratboy? Hmmm

[TheGuardian]

I guess the pam non-stick spray on jerseys just wasn't enough of an edge to win? Maybe the Donko's had a bounty system under ratboy? Hmmm

I will never waiver on the fact that I always thought that Al Wilson and Ian Gold were dirty mother fuckers. I hated both of em and glad their careers were cut short.

[ClevelandBronco]

I will never waiver on the fact that I always thought that Al Wilson and Ian Gold were dirty mother ****ers. I hated both of em and glad their careers were cut short.

What did they do? Screw with the brake lines on Derrick Thomas's car?

[TheGuardian]

What did they do? Screw with the brake lines on Derrick Thomas's car?

Cheap shotters. Both of em.

I'm glad they both got maimed in the end.

[Dylan]

Michael McCann>SPORTS LAW

Breaking down the potential legal fallout of Saints' bounty system

Criminal Charges

The bounty system implicates at least two types of criminal charges: battery and conspiracy. Battery, which under Louisiana law is punishable by up to six months in jail, refers to the intentional use of force upon another person without that person's consent. Here, a Saints player who intentionally tried to injure another team's player could have battered that player. In response, a Saints player might argue that offensive players assume the risk of serious injury on every play, especially since defensive players are rewarded for stopping the advancement of the ball. That rationale would be deeply flawed, however, because while offensive players assume the risk of injury on a tackle, they do not assume the tackle is intended to injure them. The Saints' "pay for injury" model is clearly outside the boundaries of the game and an assumption of risk defense holds little weight.

It is even possible that a Saints player could be charged with second degree battery. This is a more serious type of battery, which carries a potential five-year prison sentence and which refers to intentionally inflicting serious bodily injury. Under Louisiana law, "serious bodily injury" refers to causing another person extreme physical pain, unconsciousness, or risk of death. A bounty to injure someone so seriously that he's carted off the field arguably rises to second degree battery.

There is a three years statute of limitation for battery charges, which means that bounties -- which took place over the last three seasons -- occurred recently-enough for criminal prosecution.

It's not just Saints players who are susceptible to criminal charges. Former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who admits to aiding and abetting the bounty system, could be charged as a conspirator. Under Louisiana law, criminal conspiracy is when two or more persons -- such as a defensive coordinator and his players -- agree to commit a crime (battery).

Head coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis may have also committed crimes by failing to do anything about the bounty system. Louisiana law recognizes criminal negligence which refers to conduct that, while not intentional, shows a callous disregard for the safety of others. If Payton and Loomis were indeed aware of the bounty system and let it slide, they seem susceptible to criminal charges.

Personal Injury Claims

Players who were injured by the Saints' bounty system could file personal injury lawsuits against the Saints, Greg Williams, and the players who earned bounties. They are unlikely to do so, since NFL players seldom file personal injury claims for on-field injuries. Then again, a player injured because of bounty may feel differently than if he had been injured in the normal course of a game. With a bounty system, a player is targeted for injury. No player assumes such a risk. Plus, put yourself in the position of a player injured by a bounty: you suffered the injury not because of fair play but because a "hit man" tried to injure you. You and your family may seek legal redress for this unquestionable wrong.

Tax Evasion

Players who received bounty payments should have reported them as taxable income; even if the payments arose because of criminal activity, such "ill gotten gains" are taxable. Failure to pay one's full share of taxes constitutes tax evasion. The IRS and Louisiana Department of Revenue are likely following the bounty system scandal with a watchful eye.

Contract Termination For Cause

If the bounty scandal becomes a major story, Saints owner Tom Benson may deem it necessary to fire players, coaches and front personnel who participated in it. Those firings could be done "for cause", which would relieve the Saints of any remaining financial obligations on the contract. A for cause firing may be appropriate because the bounty system is arguably criminal and tortious and is clearly outside the scope of any employment contract. It has also caused the Saints franchise serious and potentially irreparable harm.

False Advertising

Fans who paid a good deal of money to attend Saints games, be they home or away, may reason that they were the victims of false advertising: they paid to watch competitive NFL football, not hired hit men who tried to injure other human beings. Louisiana has several laws for remedying false advertising and deceptive trade practices.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_mccann/03/03/saints.bounty.system/index.html#ixzz1o6j3rLzX

[boogblaster]

quit cry'n ... the bounty system is as old as grass ......

[Dylan]

quit cry'n ... the bounty system is as old as grass ......

It may be widespread in the NFL but that doesn't condone it -- Clearly there have been egregious violations, on the part of the Saints, to be brought to the public's attention like this.


Excerpts from Judy Battista of The New York Times

According to a memo sent to N.F.L. teams explaining the situation, money was contributed to the pool by at least one outsider, Michael Ornstein, a marketing agent who is close to Sean Payton. Ornstein pledged $10,000 toward a quarterback bounty in the playoffs during the 2009 season, and offered substantial sums toward a bounty on a quarterback last season on at least two occasions — once in an e-mail to Payton.

Players, who have been concerned about the large fines levied for hits to the head and neck area, will watch closely to see if coaches and front office officials are punished by Goodell with the same zeal.

Source: The New York Times

....

Excerpts from Alan Schwartz of The New York Times
Feb. 23, 2012

Duerson, 50, was an All-Pro safety for the Chicago Bears and two other teams from 1983 through 1993, winning two Super Bowls. He shot himself in the chest last Feb. 17 and was subsequently found to have developed the brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a progressive disorder caused by repeated trauma that can lead to cognitive dysfunction, depression and lack of impulse control, and has been found in more than two dozen N.F.L. retirees.

While the many living players currently suing the league cannot currently prove they have C.T.E. — which can be diagnosed only after death — Duerson’s family learned last May from researchers at Boston University that he did have the disease.

“The best thing that we have is the suicide note, where he said to please give my brain to the N.F.L.’s brain bank,” Tregg Duerson said. “It was clear that he was suffering from a mental illness that he knew.”

*Alan Schwarz is a Pulitzer Prize-nominated reporter at the The New York Times best known for writing more than 100 articles that exposed the seriousness of concussions among football players of all ages. His investigative and profile pieces are generally credited with revolutionizing the respect and protocol for head injuries in almost every major youth and professional sport.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/sports/football/duersons-son-sues-nfl-over-handling-of-concussions-that-led-to-suicide.html?ref=headinjuries

[chefsos]

According to a memo sent to N.F.L. teams explaining the situation, money was contributed to the pool by at least one outsider, Michael Ornstein, a marketing agent who is close to Sean Payton. Ornstein pledged $10,000 toward a quarterback bounty in the playoffs during the 2009 season, and offered substantial sums toward a bounty on a quarterback last season on at least two occasions — once in an e-mail to Payton.Now that right there, is explosive. Wow.

[reschief]

NFL will now investigate Redskins bounty program
Posted by Mike Florio on March 3, 2012, 10:16 PM EST

Getty ImagesBetween Mark Maske’s Friday report in the Washington Post and former Redskins safety Matt Bowen’s Saturday item for the Chicago Tribune, it seems clear that, like the Saints, the Redskins under defensive coordinator Gregg Williams had a bounty program.

That’s apparently news to the NFL.

Maske reports that the league will investigate whether the Redskins used bounties. Though Maske, citing a source, characterizes the review as almost perfunctory, the fact remains that if the players tell the league what they told Maske, and if Bowen’s article is accepted as true and accurate, not much of an investigation will be needed.

And if the use of a bounty program with the Redskins is indeed news to the NFL, it likely means that, when Gregg Williams inevitably was given a chance to purge his soul by confessing the depth of the rabbit hole, he said something like “I swear I never did it before being hired by the Saints.”

If that’s the case — if Williams lied to the league about pre-New Orleans bounties after initially lying to the league about using bounties with the Saints — Williams has to go. Permanently.

Apart from any discipline imposed on the Saints or any other coaches or any of the players involved, if Williams failed to admit the extent of his use of a bounty program after finally admitting to using one in New Orleans, the man who recently was hired to serve as the Rams defensive coordinator should be banned from the NFL, for life.

Harsh? Yes. But necessary.

Apart from the habit (not mistake) of dangling cash as an incentive to cripple, Williams hasn’t been honest, at least when asked about bounties in New Orleans and most likely when asked about bounties elsewhere.

Williams both broke the rules and lied to conceal it. Given the underlying nature of the violation, the NFL can’t afford to keep him employed, not at a time when safety has become such a priority.

[Imon Yourside]

Saints they aint.

[Dylan]

Now that right there, is explosive. Wow.

Agreed! It's criminal! It's F Word nuts!

According to a memo sent to N.F.L. teams explaining the situation, money was contributed to the pool by at least one outsider, Michael Ornstein, a marketing agent who is close to Sean Payton. Ornstein pledged $10,000 toward a quarterback bounty in the playoffs during the 2009 season, and offered substantial sums toward a bounty on a quarterback last season on at least two occasions — once in an e-mail to Payton.

What else is Ornstein and his friends betting on?

[Dylan]

Saints they aint.

So much for the post-Katrina Cinderella story.

[WhiteWhale]

Other teams I suspect practiced this same thing: All defensive coaches who worked under Jeff Fisher.

Del Rio's jags were a cheap shot group. I think the Lions are doing it too.

[Nightfyre]

If Washington loses its first round pick, the ram's pick is significantly less valuable.

[Disgruntled_Parent via SR's IP in GA]

We as fans of the NFL will be held hostage to hear about this garbage for months, if not years. I'm already tired of this story and hope Sal Paolantonio pays, I HOPE HE PAYS!

[reschief]

So, . . . is the bounty program exclusively for defensive players? Apparently, the Buffalo Bills are rumored to have had such a program. . . and my mind turns to the cheap shot (although perhaps legal) hit by WR Stevie Johnson on Eric Berry, with the end of Berry's season and acl damage that could effect his career. Why do I envision the Bill's defensive players telling Johnson after the game, "Great hit man! you get this weeks bounty of $50k. We should put you on the D! ?"

[Chief Roundup]

If Washington loses its first round pick, the ram's pick is significantly less valuable.

I doubt this will be settled as far as washington goes before this years draft. But it definately might affect whether washington will have a 1st round next year.

[Carlota69]

I doubt this will be settled as far as washington goes before this years draft. But it definately might affect whether washington will have a 1st round next year.
Which could seriously hurt their chances of trading up for RG3. STL is going to want a kings ransom and WAS may lose some of their draft picks. Could put WAS out of the runnning:hmmm:

[Dylan]

Funny thing, with their bounty program in place, the Redskins still sucked.

[stonedstooge]

Funny thing, with their bounty program in place, the Redskins still sucked.

That's the whole problem. How do you punish a team that may have had intent, but no results?

[Dylan]

That's the whole problem. How do you punish a team that may have had intent, but no results?

During the past three seasons, while Roger Goodell has busy levying fines and changing rules to protect the safety of players, Gregg Williams was running a profitable bounty program to end player's careers.

Bounties are a violation of NFL rules. Therefore, if Goodell wants to be taken seriously while presiding over the nation's most popular sport, he should permanently ban Williams from the NFL. Seriously, what does it take for the league to finally say to someone "You're fired. Go find another job elsewhere?"

According to the NFL's statement, Saints' owner Tom Benson told general manager Mickey Loomis to put an end to it, and Loomis did nothing. That's grounds for termination. Of course, this is the NFL, where nobody ever gets fired like in the real world.

Just my opinion

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/03/04/sports/YBOUNTY/YBOUNTY-popup.jpg

[Okie_Apparition]

“It’s unfortunate to hear these things come out,” Suh said, via the Charlotte Observer. “Me personally, I don’t take part in those things and knowing my teammates and knowing my coaches, we wouldn’t allow that. I understand it’s a tough situation the commissioner has to deal with. As he has in the past, he’s going to deal with it with a stiff hand. Hopefully, people can learn from the mistakes and make an example out of it.

Right square on the brown spot, Suh

[MOhillbilly]

During the past three seasons, while Roger Goodell has busy levying fines and changing rules to protect the safety of players, Gregg Williams was running a profitable bounty program to end player's careers.

Bounties are a violation of NFL rules. Therefore, if Goodell wants to be taken seriously while presiding over the nation's most popular sport, he should permanently ban Williams from the NFL. Seriously, what does it take for the league to finally say to someone "You're fired. Go find another job elsewhere?"

According to the NFL's statement, Saints' owner Tom Benson told general manager Mickey Loomis to put an end to it, and Loomis did nothing. That's grounds for termination. Of course, this is the NFL, where nobody ever gets fired like in the real world.

Just my opinion

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/03/04/sports/YBOUNTY/YBOUNTY-popup.jpg
Don't you have dishes to wash and laundry to fold?

[dirk digler]

PFT is reporting that Williams and Payton could face long suspensions maybe a year long. Wow.

Lengthy and unprecedented suspensions appear to be coming for those involved in the Saints’ practice of paying bounties to players who injured opponents.

Mark Maske of the Washington Post reports that the NFL is considering long suspensions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/severe-sweeping-penalties-under-consideration-in-saints-bounty-case/2012/03/04/gIQAThoDrR_blog.html) for head coach Sean Payton, General Manager Mickey Loomis, former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams and players who were involved in bounties.

How long? Maske cited an unnamed source who said suspensions could be half a season or longer. One person familiar with the NFL’s thinking on the matter mentioned the decision in 1963 by NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle to suspend Packers running back Paul Hornung and Lions defensive tackle Alex Karras for an entire season for gambling.

Williams, who ran the bounty program and who’s now the defensive coordinator of the Rams, would seem to be the person who would get the longest suspension. Rams head coach Jeff Fisher should probably be in the process of coming up with a Plan B at the defensive coordinator position on his coaching staff because Williams, the Plan A, may be unavailable for some or all of the season.

But Payton and Loomis appear to be facing discipline as well, and players involved could also be suspended. The NFL said 22 to 27 players on the Saints were involved, but the league hasn’t said who those players are. We don’t know how many are still in the league, how many are still with the Saints and whether some players were ringleaders of the bounty program and will face more significant than others.

What is clear is that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is preparing to come down hard. After the Spygate scandal, Goodell stripped the Patriots of a first-round pick, fined Bill Belichick $500,000 and fined the Patriots $250,000. All indications are that the sanctions for the Saints will be significantly more severe.

[Kerberos]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0304-bowen-nfl--20120304,0,4015992.column

Pretty good column by former Redskin under Williams

by Matt Bowen

11:54 p.m. CST, March 2, 2012

Prices were set on Saturday nights in the team hotel.

In a makeshift meeting room, with the whisper of evening traffic pouring in from the Beltway, we laid our bounties on opposing players. We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game.


Price tags started low during the regular season — a couple hundred bucks for going after the quarterback hard or taking a running back out below the knees. Chop him down and give a quick smile when you got back to the huddle. You just got a bonus.

The pot was collected throughout the season through fines. Show up late? Ding. Blow an assignment during practice? Again. Walk on the field with your chinstrap unbuckled. Again. Break the rules, you gave to the bank.

The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting.

That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.

Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.

Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.

That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into.

I ate it up.

It's hard not to, not when you're playing for a coach like Gregg Williams, my defensive coordinator while I was with the Washington Redskins.

Williams is an excellent motivator. You do what he wants: play tough, push the envelope and carry a swagger that every opponent sees on tape. When you lined up against us, you knew we were coming after you. It was our gig, our plan, our way to motivate, to extra-motivate.

I wanted to be That Guy for him, playing the game with an attitude opposing players absolutely feared. If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it.

I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.

Your career exists in a short window, one that starts closing the moment it opens. If making a play to impress a coach or win a game pushes that window up an inch before it slams back down on your fingers, then you do what has to be done.

Some day, when my three sons grow up, I will make clear to them that this league isn't for everyone. No doubt, it can be downright disgusting living by a win-at-all-costs mentality. It's a fundamental part of the NFL's culture that isn't talked about outside of team facilities.

I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.

Win or else. That's the drill.

Special contributor Matt Bowen, who played at Glenbard West and Iowa, spent seven seasons in the NFL as a strong safety. You also can find his work at nationalfootballpost.com

[kysirsoze]

PFT is reporting that Williams and Payton could face long suspensions maybe a year long. Wow.

That's the least they should face. I hope criminal charges are filed.

[Al Bundy]

Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport

Ex-Saint & current #Browns LB Scott Fujita getting dragged into bounty probe, per sources. NFLPA exec committee member. good guy, too #NFL32

[ClevelandBronco]

I'm starting to get on the lifetime ban, explore criminal charges and sue the living shit out of them for damaging the league (especially if any "outside" money was involved) bandwagon.

Not that it's going to happen.

[Kyle DeLexus]

This kind of thing is why I love the NFL.

"If you hurt that mother fucker I'll pay you $2500!"

"Ok!"

1. Throws cheap shot

2. ???

3. Profit

Cheap shotters. Both of em.

I'm glad they both got maimed in the end.

:shrug:

[tk13]

A year suspension would be brutal. But it does sound like the hammer might come down hard. Chris Mortensen was acting like Goodell wanted to make a statement with this. He also thought it had something to do with Goodell wanting to go to 18 games... he's going to have to clean things like this up to get there, so he'll drop the hammer on Williams.

[Dylan]

Don't you have dishes to wash and laundry to fold?

When did you become the HOUSE MOM?

http://planetsmilies.net/not-tagged-smiley-14836.gif

Seriously, how about you respect those of us that disagree with you.

[MOhillbilly]

When did you become the HOUSE MOM?

http://planetsmilies.net/not-tagged-smiley-14836.gif

Seriously, how about you respect those of us that disagree with you.

Well don't you?

[Dylan]

The New York Times
Williams Set for Meeting With N.F.L. Officials
3 minutes ago

Gregg Williams, the former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator who is at the center of the N.F.L.’s investigation into a bounty system that rewarded players for injuring opponents, will meet again with league security officials Monday in New York.

[Fritz88]

The New York Times
Williams Set for Meeting With N.F.L. Officials
3 minutes ago

Gregg Williams, the former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator who is at the center of the N.F.L.’s investigation into a bounty system that rewarded players for injuring opponents, will meet again with league security officials Monday in New York.

IMO he's as good as gone, at least for next season.

[WhiteWhale]

IMO he's as good as gone, at least for next season.

Dungy and the media are basically blaming him for Manning's neck now.

The guy is screwed. He might be banned.

[WhiteWhale]

During the past three seasons, while Roger Goodell has busy levying fines and changing rules to protect the safety of players, Gregg Williams was running a profitable bounty program to end player's careers.

Bounties are a violation of NFL rules. Therefore, if Goodell wants to be taken seriously while presiding over the nation's most popular sport, he should permanently ban Williams from the NFL. Seriously, what does it take for the league to finally say to someone "You're fired. Go find another job elsewhere?"

According to the NFL's statement, Saints' owner Tom Benson told general manager Mickey Loomis to put an end to it, and Loomis did nothing. That's grounds for termination. Of course, this is the NFL, where nobody ever gets fired like in the real world.

Just my opinion

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/03/04/sports/YBOUNTY/YBOUNTY-popup.jpg

What the hell are you talking about?

People get fired ALL THE TIME in the NFL. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. The turnover rate is incredible. It's all results oriented though. Getting the job done is more important than getting the job done ethically.

Can you honestly say there are no real world professions that reflect this kind of thinking? I would disagree with you on that.

[patteeu]

I think the idea of bounties for good, legal plays is great. Every team should have them. I don't think there should be bounties for illegal hits though and that's the kind of thing I think ought to warrant disciplinary action.

The last thing we need are criminal charges entering into the equation. That's BS.

[chiefzilla1501]

This story just keeps getting juicier. Organized gambling. Unclaimed revenue. Money coming in externally which has major cap implications. This is not just a moral issue. This is going to get really ugly.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think the idea of bounties for good, legal plays is great. Every team should have them. I don't think there should be bounties for illegal hits though and that's the kind of thing I think ought to warrant disciplinary action.

The last thing we need are criminal charges entering into the equation. That's BS.

I'd be surprised if it did. But in terms of money... This sounds like it was an organized gambling ring. Hell... Lets go here. What would happen if a guy put a million dollars down in Vegas then added 25k to he pool to take out peytons legs? More innocently, what if you had a high dollar fantasy football player contributing to the pool to take out heir opponents players. The outside influence is going to be a very interesting issue.

[MOhillbilly]

Imo this won't be as big a deal as the media is making it out to be.

[jd1020]

Imo this won't be as big a deal as the media is making it out to be.

Really?...

In a time where the focus of football has turned to player safety, you think that a team who deliberately went out and tried to injure players for reward money that its not going to be a big deal?

[MOhillbilly]

Really?...

In a time where the focus of football has turned to player safety, you think that a team who deliberately went out and tried to injure players for reward money that its not going to be a big deal?

All I've heard is wild speculations from media and fans.

[WhiteWhale]

All I've heard is wild speculations from media and fans.

Goddell is known to react based on Media and fan perceptions.

The stronger their reaction, the more likely Goddell's knee jerk reaction will be serious.

[chiefzilla1501]

Imo this won't be as big a deal as the media is making it out to be.

If the money was coming from the team or outside sources, this is a serious salarycap violation. Not to mention the IRS implications and huge potential for gambling connections.

[lcarus]

Clark Judge‏@ClarkJudgeCBSReply
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League says it has 18,000 documents of over 50,000 pages in Saints' investigation. Staggering.

50,000 pages? Pages of what? How?

[patteeu]

I'd be surprised if it did. But in terms of money... This sounds like it was an organized gambling ring. Hell... Lets go here. What would happen if a guy put a million dollars down in Vegas then added 25k to he pool to take out peytons legs? More innocently, what if you had a high dollar fantasy football player contributing to the pool to take out heir opponents players. The outside influence is going to be a very interesting issue.

Yes, the outside money can't be tolerated. Furthermore, whatever money is used to pay these bounties, whether it comes from player fines or owner contributions, needs to be accounted for under the cap. IMO.

Edit: I suppose it's hard to figure out what funds come from outside versus what funds come from the owner if the owner launders everything. In that case, as long as the money going to the players is above the table, I wouldn't have much problem with it.

[htismaqe]

What the hell are you talking about?

People get fired ALL THE TIME in the NFL. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. The turnover rate is incredible. It's all results oriented though. Getting the job done is more important than getting the job done ethically.

Can you honestly say there are no real world professions that reflect this kind of thinking? I would disagree with you on that.

I think the point is about guys getting fired from football altogether.

Sure guys get fired all the time from one team or another but they instantly surface elsewhere.

Hell, the man at the center of this controversy has allegedly had bounty programs in AT LEAST 3 places OTHER than where he is currently employed.

[MOhillbilly]

If the money was coming from the team or outside sources, this is a serious salarycap violation. Not to mention the IRS implications and huge potential for gambling connections.

I would be shocked.

[Okie_Apparition]

The rumor now is the Saints were told to stop doing it
but they didn't & there's proof of it

[MOhillbilly]

Show me proof.

[qabbaan]

I don't see what the big deal is. This only confirms that players are doing their job. Hitting the QB and getting knockdowns that add up over the course of a game is part of the sport.

[FringeNC]

Obviously, from a PR and legal liability standpoint, this stuff can't be tolerated. I just wonder how much it really affected player behavior -- given the possibility of fines, was the "bounty" large enough to do anything?

[Okie_Apparition]

Sports Center was saying that

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't see what the big deal is. This only confirms that players are doing their job. Hitting the QB and getting knockdowns that add up over the course of a game is part of the sport.

Read the thread. This isn't just a moral issue.

[J Diddy]

I don't see what the big deal is. This only confirms that players are doing their job. Hitting the QB and getting knockdowns that add up over the course of a game is part of the sport.

Trying to injure or end the career of a fellow player is not part of the sport. It is the definition of anti-sportsmanship.

[Hydrae]

I think the point is about guys getting fired from football altogether.

Sure guys get fired all the time from one team or another but they instantly surface elsewhere.

Hell, the man at the center of this controversy has allegedly had bounty programs in AT LEAST 3 places OTHER than where he is currently employed.

This is why I think Williams should be banned from the league. No amount of suspension or fine is going to keep him from doing this again.

[Skyy God]

I'm shocked, shocked that there's violence in football.

Big Red, professed champion of player safety. Just gathering goodwill for his subsequent push for an 18 game season.

[stonedstooge]

I don't agree with outside monies entering the equation, but how the hell do you punish players or coaches for doing what they get paid for? Do you think when they look at film after a game, even if a hit is flagged, the players and coaches aren't hooting and hollering when a player lights up another?

[Okie_Apparition]

I hope the 27 players have real accounts & not some relative handling their finances
audits out the ass

[FAX]

It seems that, more and more, I find myself disagreeing with the hive-mind.

As a scientist, media consultant, and shrunken head collector, I have to say that there is a certain hypocrisy to the media's treatment of this story that is practically disgusting. ESPN, the NFL, and every sports rag and site in the world glorifies big hits and the bigger the better.

Football is a violent sport. It is a celebration of violence. There is great skill involved, to be sure, but world class synchronized swimmers also demonstrate great skill and few could care less. In large measure, football is popular because the risk of injury is ever present.

The media says, "We don't want to see anybody hurt." but that's not exactly true. The director calls for a close up of the player writhing on the ground. We see countless replays of the biggest hits of the week. We hear the fans applaud the brave gladiator as he is carted off the field in a neck brace. Meanwhile, we rarely see stories about the disabled ex-player enduring constant pain from the beating his body sustained while the NFL and the NFLPA essentially ignores their suffering.

Then, when you add a financial component, suddenly the media are aghast? The same media that itself profits enormously from the game?

What a world we live in.

FAX

[DJJasonp]

It seems that, more and more, I find myself disagreeing with the hive-mind.

As a scientist, media consultant, and shrunken head collector, I have to say that there is a certain hypocrisy to the media's treatment of this story that is practically disgusting. ESPN, the NFL, and every sports rag and site in the world glorifies big hits and the bigger the better.

Football is a violent sport. It is a celebration of violence. There is great skill involved, to be sure, but world class synchronized swimmers also demonstrate great skill and few could care less. In large measure, football is popular because the risk of injury is ever present.

The media says, "We don't want to see anybody hurt." but that's not exactly true. The director calls for a close up of the player writhing on the ground. We see countless replays of the biggest hits of the week. We hear the fans applaud the brave gladiator as he is carted off the field in a neck brace. Meanwhile, we rarely see stories about the disabled ex-player enduring constant pain from the beating his body sustained while the NFL and the NFLPA essentially ignores their suffering.

Then, when you add a financial component, suddenly the media are aghast? The same media that itself profits enormously from the game?

What a world we live in.

FAX

Well said.

I dont have a problem with "hurting" another player, by legal hits only.

But to glorify the hit/injury with money is what is wrong.

It could lend itself to players stretching the boundaries of what's legal - just to make some extra bucks.

[MOhillbilly]

Well said.

I dont have a problem with "hurting" another player, by legal hits only.

But to glorify the hit/injury with money is what is wrong.

It could lend itself to players stretching the boundaries of what's legal - just to make some extra bucks.

How are you gonna make an extra buck on a illegal hit?

[Extra Point]

This is why I think Williams should be banned from the league. No amount of suspension or fine is going to keep him from doing this again.

Agreed. I thought the guy was a class act.

Baiting guys who make $Hundreds-of-thousands/year into taking guys out the game, with a relatively small bounty at stake, is BS. Whatever happened to "Hey, do your job, to play this game you love?" More hypocrisy from those members of the NFLPA who took the bait, and chanted "Play hard, but play fair."

[FringeNC]

Suppose the Raiders have more cheap shots on defense over the course of a season than the Saints, and don't have bounties like the Saints....

In other words, does motive matter? Punish outcomes (cheap shots), not the supposed motivations for the cheap shots.

[FAX]

Suppose the Raiders have more cheap shots on defense over the course of a season than the Saints, and don't have bounties like the Saints....

In other words, does motive matter? Punish outcomes (cheap shots), not the supposed motivations for the cheap shots.

There is great wisdom here.

FAX

[Dylan]

This story just keeps getting juicier. Organized gambling. Unclaimed revenue. Money coming in externally which has major cap implications. This is not just a moral issue. This is going to get really ugly.

Agreed.

Michael Ornstein, a convicted felon should scare the NFL, more than Gregg Williams.

As first reported by CBS Mike Freeman:

NFL memo details more Saints bounty accusations
by Mike Freeman

An NFL memo to all of its clubs details yet more of what is becoming one of the biggest sports scandals in recent NFL history. Details of the memo were obtained by me from a team official. Here is a summary of what parts of the memo states.

Funds for the Saints bounty system, the memo states, weren't solely contributed by players. People close to the Saints team contributed as well. One was a felon: Michael Ornstein.

Ornstein was once Reggie Bush's marketing agent and is close friends with Saints coach Sean Payton. Ornstein spent time in prison for fraud and the Saints -- somewhat -- have cut ties with Ornstein.

But in 2009 Ornstein was a fixture around the Saints site. The NFL memo to teams state that then Ornstein pledged $10,000 towards the quarterback bounty in 2009.

Then, on at least two occasions in 2011, Ornstein again contributed to a bounty fund on an opposing quarterback.

The NFL memo also states there was a bounty paper trail. Ornstein put details of the bounty system in an e-mail to Payton, according to the NFL memo. In that e-mail, Ornstein committed $5,000 towards yet another bounty.

This just gets worse and worse for the Saints.

http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/35066335


The New York Times had also verified Freeman's remarkable story

[Dylan]

Former NFL marketing VP sentenced to 8 months in prison in ticket, jersey scam

By Peter Krouse, The Plain Dealer
Published: Friday, November 19, 2010,

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A former NFL vice president of marketing who also worked as the marketing agent for Reggie Bush was sentenced to eight months in prison Friday for selling scalped Super Bowl tickets and football jerseys fraudulently claimed to have been worn during pro games.

Michael Ornstein, 57, admitted in June that from 1998 to 2006 he and others bought Super Bowl tickets at greater than face value from people who had gotten them through their employment.

Ornstein resold the tickets at a profit and created false documents so the employers of the original sellers wouldn't catch on to the scheme. He started to explain some of the details of the ticket scheme, saying players were given forms for them to sign indicating tickets would go to charity. But his attorney, Angelo Lonardo, stopped him.

No one connected to the case would explain who sold the tickets to Ornstein.

He also admitted to a scheme whereby he and others -- from late 2000 to early 2001 -- purchased NFL jerseys from a Wisconsin manufacturer and had them cut into pieces and sold along with trading cards falsely marketed as having a piece of game-worn NFL jersey attached.

Another scheme had Ornstein arranging for jerseys falsely represented as having been worn during the 2002 season to be placed on an Internet website for sale on consignment.

Court documents state that Ornstein had false certificates of authenticity faxed to him in California, including a certificate from northern Ohio.

Ornstein said during his sentencing that none of the cards with jersey material attached were actually sold and that he never made any money on the jerseys. But Ornstein agreed to forfeit $350,000 linked to proceeds from the schemes, all of which has been paid.

Lonardo told the judge that his client was having money problems when his crimes were committed.

Ornstein has been cooperating with federal agents for the past four years. In return, he was given a lighter sentence. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jack Sammon said charges may be filed against others as a result of Ornstein's help, but not locally. The Internal Revenue Service and U.S. Secret Service were among those involved in the investigation.

The Ornstein case has been followed nationally because of his past relationship with Bush, a running back with the New Orleans Saints, and the team's coach, Sean Payton.

Ornstein seemed shaken by the sentence, slumping onto the lectern in front of him. His attorney had asked if Ornstein could serve his sentence under home confinement, but U.S. District Judge Christopher Boyko said no.

The judge noted that Ornstein was on probation for a federal mail fraud conviction in California at the time of his more recent crimes. The judge weighed that against Ornstein's many instances of charity over the years.

Lonardo declined to comment on the case after sentencing, saying he wasn't authorized to do so by his client.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/former_nfl_marketing_vp_setnen.html



*Speaking of Saints coach Sean Payton, whatever happened with the Vicodin investigation? Did the league swiftly sweep it all under the rug? They're lucky I'm interested in following foreign news!

[BryanBusby]

That shit got swept under the rug quickly. Now we know what he did with all those Vicodins at least.

"Whoever knocks Favre the fuck out gets a pharmaceutical cocktail *slaps a handful of pills ontop of the stack of cash*"

[kysirsoze]

Suppose the Raiders have more cheap shots on defense over the course of a season than the Saints, and don't have bounties like the Saints....

In other words, does motive matter? Punish outcomes (cheap shots), not the supposed motivations for the cheap shots.

It does where the law is concerned. Why not here? Of course people are going to get injured playing football. Does that mean an institutional mandate to purposefully injure other players (specifically to the extent of them being carted off the field) is ok?

Players take a known risk playing football, but having headhunters intentionally trying to cause you bodily harm is not supposed to be part of that. Laws about assault and battery shouldn't cease to exist just because someone is wearing a football uniform. They aren't gladiators. Intent to seriously harm someone makes a big difference in my opinion. That's to say nothing of the money which is also in violation of both league rules and taz laws.

[tk13]

Wow, if they have evidence that people outside the organization were actually supplying the cash, and the coaches were in on it... this is going to be really bad.

[stonedstooge]

Hate to think of the number of flags we will get to see next year. Fuck

[O.city]

Damn. Sounds like Payton fully knew about all this stuff too. Too bad we already filled the OC spot, he might be available here pretty soon.

With all this coming out, somebody is taking a hard fall. Hell, they all might. Someone might face some legal charges as well.

[kysirsoze]

Hate to think of the number of flags we will get to see next year. ****

Ugh, true.

[O.city]

Guys want to pay for INTs or Fumble recoveries, td's etc fine. It's out of their pocket. It's against the NFL rules I believe, but fine.


But to get a cash bonus for causing a guy to get carted off the field purposefully, that's wrong.

Being told to stop it and continuing, again, wrong. Having a possible legal actions due to gambling, taxes, etc.

This is gonna get really nasty. I wouldn't be surprised to see that team gutted from the draft and really wouldn't be surprised if Payton is fired.

[BryanBusby]

Wow, if they have evidence that people outside the organization were actually supplying the cash, and the coaches were in on it... this is going to be really bad.

They do, as the felon was e-mailing Payton about contributing to the bounty pool.

[Dylan]

They do, as the felon was e-mailing Payton about contributing to the bounty pool.


I find this interesting:

The NFL's accountants and attorneys need to begin drawing a box around some sort of liability number immediately and that is going to be very hard to do with the pool of plaintiffs sure to grow as a result of this news story alone. What is truly a game changer, I think, is that punitive damages are going to be all too easy to plead for and be awarded--especially if the "everybody does it" line has substance. If the NFL was a stock I would be shorting it.

The other case here is how much debt is being carried by the stadium bonds issued to allow these teams to perform and in what state municipal court the cases of fraud and malfeasance will be heard.

As for Gregg Williams, he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and banned from the game for life. Let them taste the blood in their mouths from betrayed and angry fans.


Source ~

[O.city]

IMO, this is gonna get way worse than Spygate ever did.

[Setsuna]

I bet every team playing Denver had that bounty on #15. Don't deny it.

[stevenidol]

This is a PR campaign by the NFL to set a precedent that they care about players well being. Roger Goodell cares about the business of the NFL, not its players.

The bounties do not affect the integrity of the game, the spying scandal did. However, the bounties will get punished harder because the NFL needs to cover its own ass with future lawsuits from crippled players.

[stonedstooge]

This is a PR campaign by the NFL to set a precedent that they care about players well being. Roger Goodell cares about the business of the NFL, not its players.

The bounties do not affect the integrity of the game, the spying scandal did. However, the bounties will get punished harder because the NFL needs to cover its own ass with future lawsuits from crippled players.

Word

[O.city]

When you have guys paying each other to see who can get a player taken off on a stretcher by any means necessary, IMO thats a problem.

[chiefzilla1501]

This is a PR campaign by the NFL to set a precedent that they care about players well being. Roger Goodell cares about the business of the NFL, not its players.

The bounties do not affect the integrity of the game, the spying scandal did. However, the bounties will get punished harder because the NFL needs to cover its own ass with future lawsuits from crippled players.

Are you not reading anything else that's going on here? They ABSOLUTELY deserve to be punished worse than the spying scandal. The spying scandal broke ethical rules. They didn't break the law. Forget about these guys getting busted by the NFL, they better hope they don't go to jail. I don't care that much about the battery. There is a ton of financial impropriety here.

Didn't affect the integrity of the game? You had outsiders pumping money into bonuses that didn't count into a salary cap. Hell, Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for gambling. Shouldn't it matter that there was an outside "bookie" pumping money from outside the organization into this fund (and who's to say he didn't then put money on the Saints in Vegas with the hope that if the Saints took out Warner, they could kill the spread?). The team was told to stop, and no clear actions were taken by anybody to stop it.

And by the way, it's very likely that this bounty ended the career of one of the greatest QBs on all time.

So yeah, it matters.

[FAX]

How can anyone prove the bounty caused anything?

Quarterbacks get knocked out of games all the time. I doubt that the Chiefs had a bounty on Brady, nevertheless he was carted off all the same.

The most that you could charge is some sort of conspiracy with intent to cause bodily injury and that's essentially what defenses do every Sunday. They conspire to knock the living crap out of designated players while the media, the fans, and the NFL cheer them on.

The NFL's rules are supposed to control the action on the field. That's why they give the officials whistles to carry around. What they can't control is the exchange of private money and that's what this appears to be all about.

FAX

[tk13]

I don't know about the whole idea that this truly affected anyone's career. I can agree in theory with the idea that most defenses want to kill the QB anyway. I'm not sure if this program worked in that regard... although you still have to punished for just entertaining the idea. You just can't go down that slippery slope.

But that said... the whole idea that someone outside the organization was basically leveling performance bonuses for injuries is one thing. The fact the coach might have been involved is a huge, huge problem. You almost have to make an example of him so these things don't get worse.

[stevenidol]

Are you not reading anything else that's going on here? They ABSOLUTELY deserve to be punished worse than the spying scandal. The spying scandal broke ethical rules. They didn't break the law. Forget about these guys getting busted by the NFL, they better hope they don't go to jail. I don't care that much about the battery. There is a ton of financial impropriety here.

Didn't affect the integrity of the game? You had outsiders pumping money into bonuses that didn't count into a salary cap. Hell, Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for gambling. Shouldn't it matter that there was an outside "bookie" pumping money from outside the organization into this fund (and who's to say he didn't then put money on the Saints in Vegas with the hope that if the Saints took out Warner, they could kill the spread?). The team was told to stop, and no clear actions were taken by anybody to stop it.

And by the way, it's very likely that this bounty ended the career of one of the greatest QBs on all time.

So yeah, it matters.

I don't know anything about gamblers having anything to do with the bounties.

However, I think the QB would have been tackled whether there was a bounty or not, and the players are being paid to tackle him as hard as they can on every play. Last I checked, tackling was not cheating no matter how hard they hit someone.

Spying on other teams practices is cheating and should have far and above a worse punishment.

The Saints, Gregg Williams and Sean Payton are a scapegoat.

[stonedstooge]

Can't imagine the league throwing more flags for unnecessary roughness and roughing the passer penalties then were thrown last year. Almost everyone bitched about it. I just hope that it isn't the end result of all of this

[SPchief]

I don't know anything about gamblers having anything to do with the bounties.

However, I think the QB would have been tackled whether there was a bounty or not, and the players are being paid to tackle him as hard as they can on every play. Last I checked, tackling was not cheating no matter how hard they hit someone.

Spying on other teams practices is cheating and should have far and above a worse punishment.

The Saints, Gregg Williams and Sean Payton are a scapegoat.

You don't think people trying to injure people have an affect on gambling?

[Fritz88]

It fucking annoys me to no end how the media dictates what we think should be important.

This issue is getting blown out of proportion and Williams is going to pay the price for it.

[stevenidol]

You don't think people trying to injure people have an affect on gambling?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

[KS Smitty]

How can anyone prove the bounty caused anything?

Quarterbacks get knocked out of games all the time. I doubt that the Chiefs had a bounty on Brady, nevertheless he was carted off all the same.

FAX

For that we got Cassel. Maybe this was a reverse bounty.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

What's to stop an outsider from putting a $10,000 bonus to take out Adrian Peterson, then putting a bunch of money on the Saints in Vegas? Don't you think knocking Peterson out of the game turns a game into a blowout that makes your odds look pretty good?

We can't just think about Quarterbacks. Running Backs get the ball a lot and players have lots of opportunities to hurt them. AP said the Saints were doing extracurricular things to target his high ankle sprain.

[SPchief]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

If a gambler helps put money into a pot to help pay players to injure others, you don't see a problem with that?

[stevenidol]

What's to stop an outsider from putting a $10,000 bonus to take out Adrian Peterson, then putting a bunch of money on the Saints in Vegas? Don't you think knocking Peterson out of the game turns a game into a blowout that makes your odds look pretty good?

I don't know where any of that has ever been alleged.

[chiefzilla1501]

Whether you agree that there were any dirty hits, it's still pretty interesting that Gregg Williams may very well have been responsible for three injuries that led to the retirement of 3 elite QBs. I don't think the Warner hit was dirty. The hit on Peyton seemed dirty. Some of the Favre hits may have been dirty too.

[stonedstooge]

Whether you agree that there were any dirty hits, it's still pretty interesting that Gregg Williams may very well have been responsible for three injuries that led to the retirement of 3 elite QBs. I don't think the Warner hit was dirty. The hit on Peyton seemed dirty. Some of the Favre hits may have been dirty too.

Were any of the three flagged when they happened?

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't know where any of that has ever been alleged.

Nothing has been alleged about whether the outsider gambled on the Saints. I'm just pointing out the possible implication.

But there is definitely the allegation that a friend of Bush and Payton pumped money into the pool. The gambling part is just an interesting implication I'm pointing out without any proof. Even if there was no gambling, it is an outsider paying out illegal bonuses to players, which is a serious breach in the salary cap and has some serious IRS implications, especially since it seems like this money was tracked.

[chiefzilla1501]

Were any of the three flagged when they happened?

The Peyton Manning play wasn't, but it damn well should have been. The Saints were flagged twice against Favre and they should have been flagged three times. You can watch the video earlier in the thread and it's pretty obvious which ones they were.

[stonedstooge]

The Peyton Manning play wasn't, but it damn well should have been. The Saints were flagged twice against Favre and they should have been flagged three times. You can watch the video earlier in the thread and it's pretty obvious which ones they were.

Thanks

[chiefzilla1501]

The Peyton Manning play wasn't, but it damn well should have been. The Saints were flagged twice against Favre and they should have been flagged three times. You can watch the video earlier in the thread and it's pretty obvious which ones they were.

Oh, and there were three fines issued after the game for three separate plays on dirty hits (2 by one player). The Favre game is most definitely going to be used to build the case that there was something going on here.

[stevenidol]

Nothing has been alleged about whether the outsider gambled on the Saints. I'm just pointing out the possible implication.

But there is definitely the allegation that a friend of Bush and Payton pumped money into the pool. The gambling part is just an interesting implication I'm pointing out without any proof. Even if there was no gambling, it is an outsider paying out illegal bonuses to players, which is a serious breach in the salary cap and has some serious IRS implications, especially since it seems like this money was tracked.

If there are any allegations of gamblers being involved and pumping money into the game to affect outcomes, then yes it becomes a way bigger issue.

Would Roger Goodell squash a story like that? Maybe.

[chiefzilla1501]

Thanks

If you watch the video of the worst hit on Favre and compare that with Peyton's, there's one really, really concerning kind of hit. The high-low hit. It's very illegal because forget about knocking a player out of a game, it could damn near cripple you. It fucked up Peyton's neck. Favre said he thought he broke his ankle after it happened.

It's hard to say if that hit was intentional. But it's pretty suspicious that that kind of a highly illegal hit happened twice against QBs where it's been alleged that there was a clear bounty against them.

[Dylan]

Honestly, is anyone minding the store at the Saints headquarters?

When mainstream media ignores your team:


Saints Coach Payton Says Ornstein's `Special Ops' Were Key to Super Bowl

By Aaron Kuriloff and Barry Rothbard - Jun 29, 2010 4:22 PM ET

New Orleans Saints Coach Sean Payton said his National Football League team had a special operative who helped win the Super Bowl: sports agent Mike Ornstein.

Payton said Ornstein helped arrange logistics such as game tickets and travel for players’ in-laws, minimizing crises. He also dreamed up irritations for the Saints’ opponent, the Indianapolis Colts, including strategically placing the Saints’ fleur-de-lis symbol around the Miami area.

“There is a little bit of a propaganda battle to how we travel -- the hotels we’re staying in, what the wives are getting, the flowers, the cameras, the billboards -- and that’s one thing we felt like we needed to win prior to even playing the game,” Payton said in an interview today. “By the end of the week, the scene was the fleur-de-lis everywhere.”

Payton said in his new book “Home Team: Coaching the Saints and New Orleans Back to Life,” that he got off to a rocky start with Ornstein, who called the team in 2006 to discourage Payton from drafting running back Reggie Bush. That conversation ended when the newly hired coach hung up on Ornstein with an expletive.

The two men became friends and by the time the Saints reached the Super Bowl, Payton had Ornstein “running Miami special ops,” as the coach and co-author Ellis Henican writes in the book.

“The psych-out began with a huge Saints billboard just outside the airport, a solid black background with a giant gold fleur-de-lis. The unwritten message: ‘Miami is Saints Country.’”

Corner by Corner

Ornstein said there were about 20 billboards, placed along the routes most likely to be traveled by the Colts’ buses after consultation with local police. He was hoping they’d annoy Colts quarterback Peyton Manning, who’d just won a record fourth Most Valuable Player award.

“I brought my billboard guy with me and I said, “I want that sign, that corner, that corner, that corner,” Ornstein said. “As a result, wherever Peyton was, he saw the fleur-de- lis. By Wednesday, he’s starting to get a little sick of us.”

Pamela Humphrey, a spokeswoman for the Colts, declined to comment on Payton and Ornstein’s statements. Brian McCarthy, an NFL spokesman, didn’t immediately return an e-mail and a phone call seeking comment.

Ornstein said this psychological warfare is a technique he’s perfected en route to helping teams including the Baltimore Ravens win six Super Bowl titles. It includes making sure the Saints players and their families received extravagant gifts such as cell phones and cameras during the week leading up to the game, and had an opportunity to show them to the Colts.

Bathrobes

Saints players even got logoed bathrobes with their names on the back and their numbers on the sleeve.

“Here’s our guys with their camcorders that have ‘New Orleans Saints Super Bowl 44” on them, all filming the Colts guys,” he said in an interview. “Well the Colts had just checked into their hotel and they had a Super Bowl hat and a Super Bowl t-shirt and it just didn’t cut it.”

Orenstein’s final coup came during the game itself, when he convinced an acquaintance with access to the stadium public address system to play a Saints favorite, “Halftime (Stand up and Get Crunk)” by the Ying Yang Twins, when the team took a fourth-quarter lead.

“The Crunk song was two Super Bowl tickets to the guy who does the songs,” Ornstein said.

Payton writes that he knew from experience that Ornstein’s campaign could be effective. When Payton reached the Super Bowl as an assistant with the New York Giants, players kept grumbling that their opponents, the Baltimore Ravens, were getting treated better than them.

Familiar Work

At one point last season, Payton writes, he told Ornstein that if the Saints reached the title game, he had to find the guy who handled the Ravens’ Super Bowl.

“I was the guy,” Ornstein said. He sure was! LMAO

Payton said he doesn’t know all the details of what Ornstein did that week, just that every detail was designed to bolster the players’ confidence and maybe rattle the Colts just a little bit.

“The Super Bowl is full of distractions,” Payton said. “One of the things we tried to do was create an environment where not only the players, but the wives, the girlfriends, all felt it was done in a first-class manner.”


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/saints-coach-payton-says-ornstein-s-special-ops-were-key-to-super-bowl.html

[The Iron Chief]

I'm sure this has been said many different ways thru the thread but this is how I look at it.

Its fine the week after a game to review a tape and applaud a nice hit by a player during a team meeting even throw him a bone and say keep those hits coming.

But a Bounty is a premeditated thought on a Specific player or players to cause bodily harm on purpose..this can affect the way you tackle said player/s on the way down to the ground..twisting a leg or arm or head shot etc..possibly a late hit even.

Reward for awesome hits/tackles the week after fine.
A Bounty not fine.

[chiefzilla1501]

If the high lows to peyton and Favre were intentional there should be suspensions. Absolutely zero place for that and it seriously injured both those guys.

The Vikings game disturbs the shit out of me. Teams should win games because of good football. Cheap shorting a qb multiple times with illegal hits truly threatens competitive balance. Yeah if Favre holds on to he ball too long clock him legally. There were some disturbing hits that went beyond that. Most obvious is clocking him after a handoff.

He problem is 15 yard penalties are great if it means you ruin the qb. Here has to be some incentive to curb these hits to gain a competitive advantage. Statement shots are one thing. Intentionally trying to knock players out of a game is a whole different ballgame.

[DonkyPuncher]

Not really. Which is why I have trouble with all of this.

If they had bounties, which almost EVERY team does (just more hush hush), then why weren't there tons of guys injured against them?

I don't mind them ****ing up Favre at all. I loved that shit.

Why do you hate Favre so much?? Just curious...

[FringeNC]

I want to see the data -- how do Saints' D personal fouls compare to other teams.

[stonedstooge]

I want to see the data -- how do Saints' D personal fouls compare to other teams.

Last years total fouls showed nothing significant

[Carlota69]

RG is going to kick someones ass!!!!!

Goodell sees bounty case as a turning point in NFL’s culture change
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 6, 2012, 12:04 PM EST
APRoger Goodell has made no secret that he wants part of his legacy as commissioner to be a safer NFL. The way he handles the Saints bounty case may go a long way toward shaping his legacy, and changing the attitudes of NFL players, coaches and teams toward player safety.

Peter King has a story in this week’s Sports Illustrated, available on the magazine’s Facebook page, that suggests Goodell is furious about the bounties and planning to take severe action.

“This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make,” a source close to Goodell said. “This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we’re in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end.”

The source told King that when Goodell first heard the allegations of the Saints paying bounties, the commissioner said, “God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering.”

Former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams appears to be in very deep trouble with Goodell, as comparisons continue to be raised with the 1963 case in which Commissioner Pete Rozelle suspended Paul Hornung and Alex Karras for an entire season for their involvement in gambling. According to King, when Goodell first confronted Williams with evidence that he had been involved in paying bounties, Williams denied it, which will surely not win Williams any points. He has since admitted his involvement.

Saints head coach Sean Payton may be in big trouble as well, with one league source involved in the investigation saying the way Payton ran things “Reminds me of the Nixon White House.”

King’s sources suggest that Goodell will come down hardest on Williams, Payton, Saints G.M. Mickey Loomis and Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, who reportedly offered $10,000 cash to any player who could knock Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game.

Goodell made his mark as commissioner by cracking down on players’ off-field misconduct. Those who encouraged injuring opposing players through on-field misconduct are about to feel Goodell’s wrath.

[stonedstooge]

Just what the NFL needs, another Goddell mission

[Epic Fail 007]

Marty was doing the bounty in kc for yrs.

[chiefzilla1501]

I want to see the data -- how do Saints' D personal fouls compare to other teams.

You don't need hard data. The question is if they used it in the playoffs, which many are questioning. The Vikings game is a clear example. Did they play dirty? Yes. Did they get penalized and fined? Big time. Were there dangerous illegal hits that have no place in football? Yes. Were they successful knocking the most important player off the field? Technically yes. Was that the result of cheap shots? Likely yes-- he snapped his ankle on a high low hit and there are allegations that players were tugging his knees extracurricularly.

Adrian Peterson accused the saints a year later for targeting his ankle. Said Greer was twisting his ankle in the pile. It sure sounds like a lot of players are coming out Ans saying what the saints did was a high other level of dirty

[stonedstooge]

Conrad Dobler says "What a bunch of pussies"

[FringeNC]

You don't need hard data. The question is if they used it in the playoffs, which many are questioning. The Vikings game is a clear example. Did they play dirty? Yes. Did they get penalized and fined? Big time. Were there dangerous illegal hits that have no place in football? Yes. Were they successful knocking the most important player off the field? Technically yes. Was that the result of cheap shots? Likely yes-- he snapped his ankle on a high low hit and there are allegations that players were tugging his knees extracurricularly.

Adrian Peterson accused the saints a year later for targeting his ankle. Said Greer was twisting his ankle in the pile. It sure sounds like a lot of players are coming out Ans saying what the saints did was a high other level of dirty

Of course you need data. There are other ways of getting players to play dirty besides explicit monetary rewards. For example, isn't Gunther in a large sense responsible for Suh's dirty play? Suh plays far dirtier than any Saints player.

[Epic Fail 007]

I told everyone who disputed me brees would not sign his tag.

[the Talking Can]

Goodell is going to rape a bitch

[htismaqe]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/06/scott-fujita-says-he-paid-teammates-but-not-for-causing-injuries/

:(

[FringeNC]

Blaming Saints is height of hypocrisy

by Jen Floyd Engel

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-Orleans-Saints-bounty-scandal-nature-of-game-roger-goodell-hypocrisy-030512

Updated Mar 6, 2012 3:44 AM ET


Soaking in all of the moral outrage and denunciations of New Orleans Saints football and listening to all of the cries for the firing and banning of general manager Mickey Loomis, coach Sean Payton and former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams since bounty-gate (1) leaked, my first thought was:

Who will play Barry Bonds in this “sports tragedy”?

This Saints bounty hunting “scandal” has so many similarities with the performance-enhancing drug “scandal” baseball endured that, of course, we are trending toward a day when a single player unfairly becomes a lightning rod for an issue actually endemic to the league.

Here is the script, as provided by baseball: The league tacitly endorses a behavior that makes it a crazy amount of money (steroids, violent hits). Then public sentiment starts to shift because of highly publicized, sad cases of real tragedy. (2) The league quickly moves to isolate and paint revealed offenders as aberrations. That quickly crumbles. More cases emerge.

Hysteria builds, finally crescendoing into calls for change. Only later do we realize what a farce it all was, and so it will be with this hand-wringing over bounties.

Every NFL team financially encourages violent takedowns of star players. Some just pay for it during the season and others in contract negotiations. To pretend otherwise is either disingenuous or the work of those with a financial stake in perpetuating the hypocrisy.

Williams is shaping up to be Jose Canseco in this comedic farce. The NFL and its minions will go to all extremes to paint him as a rogue, the lone miscreant in a league otherwise concerned first and foremost about the brain health of its players.

Ignore the 18-game schedule push, please.

Ignore the head-hunting highlights playing everywhere, including The NFL Network.

By all means, ignore Sundays worth of evidence to the contrary.

Instead let’s sell this narrative that what Williams did hurt people and shortened careers while what Ray Lewis unleashed Sunday after Sunday was Hall of Fame-worthy, the lone distinction being when payment was promised and made.

What a farce, indeed.

This is what Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker James Harrison was trying to tell us at the Super Bowl two years ago and later in his viciously honest rant to Men’s Health. We pretend to vilify this “dirty offshoot” of football — hard hits and the very real price of them. When really, it is all part of the game. It is football.

The Saints were no more violent than anybody else. They simply had a different payment plan, and that might not even end up being all that unique.

There is always money on the board in the NFL. What all defensive players know is the harder they hit, the more victories they accumulate, the more money that will be waiting for them.

So can we stop pretending Williams’ crime was fostering a culture in which violent hits are rewarded? That is the NFL. What we hate Williams for is revealing the hypocrisy of pretending anything else to be true.

He outed the league. He outed all of us.

Want the truth? We all have been paying bounties to NFL players for hurting opponents — in page views for our columns, in TV numbers, in jersey sales, in YouTube clicks — long before Williams.

The bounties do not lead to brain injuries. The violent nature of the sport does. The lack of respect for brain injuries and concussions is the bigger reason for long-term problems.

Real quick: What was more dangerous — Williams allowing $5,000 on the board for a big hit or sending Browns quarterback Colt McCoy back in with a concussion? (On a hit by Harrison, by the way.) Now which are we spending more time talking about?

What I almost guarantee is coming are more and more defensive guys admitting they had bounty programs. Maybe they were not as organized as New Orleans. Maybe they did not operate with tacit approval from the coach and GM. But former NFL quarterback and surefire Hall of Famer Brett Favre is right: There is not a team in the league that does not target and try to take out star players.

I am jumping ahead, though. Right now, we are at the frothy stage where we wrongly extrapolate that all of these guys are dying of dementia because of Williams and his bounty system, and not because of the very nature of football.

It is a genius plan. And it works for a while.

Journalists, in particular, love moral outrage. We will turn this into a Gregg Williams-New Orleans story and take turns acting shocked and appalled that violence is encouraged and rewarded in football.

What we eventually will learn is the players do not care, or they do care but are willing to assume the risks for a big payday. This is not unlike "Ice Road Truckers."

There are less dangerous roads. They do not pay as much.

The fans certainly do not care. Nor does the commissioner, despite what you have read and will undoubtedly read in coming days. Or maybe he does care, but he just cannot find his way out of the problem.

The league needs the violence. And it also needs to look like it is all about player safety. This is where New Orleans, Loomis, Payton and mostly Williams actually help.

Denounce, fire, ban, and then wait and hope.

Wait and hope for a Barry Bonds to come along and take heat off of the NFL for denouncing on a small scale what it does on a large one.

Notes: (1) When will "–gate" stop being a suffix for every single scandal, real or imagined? (2) In baseball, it was the high school player who killed himself because of, as his dad later testified before Congress, steroids. In football, Dave Duerson is the highest-profile case of a former NFL player taking his life in part because of problems he believed caused by a history of concussions. His son is now suing the league.

[TheGuardian]

Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, who reportedly offered $10,000 cash to any player who could knock Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game.

::::looks to buy a Vilma jersey online::::::

[chiefzilla1501]

Of course you need data. There are other ways of getting players to play dirty besides explicit monetary rewards. For example, isn't Gunther in a large sense responsible for Suh's dirty play? Suh plays far dirtier than any Saints player.

The titans and Fisher play a game of dirty play to aggravate their opponents. They play past the whistle. Their intent isn't to hurt someone. Granted, this leads to retalliation. Offenses retaliate and guys like haynesworth and sun throw a temper tantrum. I hate that. But its a strategic move to play mind games. It is not designed to hurt players to gain strategic advantage.

Suhs hit isn't close to as dirty as he saints because the saints is very premeditated. A high low hit isn't just dirty. It is illegal and one of he most dangerous hits in football. Players were literally going after injured body parts... Extracurricularly. He hit on the favre handoff was an inexcusable shot geared toward not just sending a statement but sending him into a concussion.

There is a huge difference between trying to get into a players head and purposely going outside the rules to knock an important player out of a game.

[TheGuardian]

The titans and Fisher play a game of dirty play to aggravate their opponents. They play past the whistle. Their intent isn't to hurt someone. Granted, this leads to retalliation. Offenses retaliate and guys like haynesworth and sun throw a temper tantrum. I hate that. But its a strategic move to play mind games. It is not designed to hurt players to gain strategic advantage.

Suhs hit isn't close to as dirty as he saints because the saints is very premeditated. A high low hit isn't just dirty. It is illegal and one of he most dangerous hits in football. Players were literally going after injured body parts... Extracurricularly. He hit on the favre handoff was an inexcusable shot geared toward not just sending a statement but sending him into a concussion.

There is a huge difference between trying to get into a players head and purposely going outside the rules to knock an important player out of a game.

Dude. Seriously.

Stop kidding yourself.

You think James Harrison knocks people out and hurts people weekly because he's just a hard nosed player?

He's TRYING to hurt people. Get a clue.

[chiefzilla1501]

There is a tremendous difference between playing aggressive and premeditating ways to knock players out of a game. Harrison hits hard and it borders on dirty. I have no problem with that. Taking premeditated cheap shots on a specific player is a way to cheat to get competitive advantage.

What's to stop demorrio Williams from walking up to Brady in a playoff game and kneecapping him 5 seconds after a whistle? He may get ejected and we get a 15 yard penalty. But who cares it was worth it to knock their star player out.

We can't act like what Gregg Williams was doing was anything close to what suh or Harrison do.

Blaming Saints is height of hypocrisy

by Jen Floyd Engel

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-Orleans-Saints-bounty-scandal-nature-of-game-roger-goodell-hypocrisy-030512

Updated Mar 6, 2012 3:44 AM ET


Soaking in all of the moral outrage and denunciations of New Orleans Saints football and listening to all of the cries for the firing and banning of general manager Mickey Loomis, coach Sean Payton and former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams since bounty-gate (1) leaked, my first thought was:

Who will play Barry Bonds in this “sports tragedy”?

This Saints bounty hunting “scandal” has so many similarities with the performance-enhancing drug “scandal” baseball endured that, of course, we are trending toward a day when a single player unfairly becomes a lightning rod for an issue actually endemic to the league.

Here is the script, as provided by baseball: The league tacitly endorses a behavior that makes it a crazy amount of money (steroids, violent hits). Then public sentiment starts to shift because of highly publicized, sad cases of real tragedy. (2) The league quickly moves to isolate and paint revealed offenders as aberrations. That quickly crumbles. More cases emerge.

Hysteria builds, finally crescendoing into calls for change. Only later do we realize what a farce it all was, and so it will be with this hand-wringing over bounties.

Every NFL team financially encourages violent takedowns of star players. Some just pay for it during the season and others in contract negotiations. To pretend otherwise is either disingenuous or the work of those with a financial stake in perpetuating the hypocrisy.

Williams is shaping up to be Jose Canseco in this comedic farce. The NFL and its minions will go to all extremes to paint him as a rogue, the lone miscreant in a league otherwise concerned first and foremost about the brain health of its players.

Ignore the 18-game schedule push, please.

Ignore the head-hunting highlights playing everywhere, including The NFL Network.

By all means, ignore Sundays worth of evidence to the contrary.

Instead let’s sell this narrative that what Williams did hurt people and shortened careers while what Ray Lewis unleashed Sunday after Sunday was Hall of Fame-worthy, the lone distinction being when payment was promised and made.

What a farce, indeed.

This is what Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker James Harrison was trying to tell us at the Super Bowl two years ago and later in his viciously honest rant to Men’s Health. We pretend to vilify this “dirty offshoot” of football — hard hits and the very real price of them. When really, it is all part of the game. It is football.

The Saints were no more violent than anybody else. They simply had a different payment plan, and that might not even end up being all that unique.

There is always money on the board in the NFL. What all defensive players know is the harder they hit, the more victories they accumulate, the more money that will be waiting for them.

So can we stop pretending Williams’ crime was fostering a culture in which violent hits are rewarded? That is the NFL. What we hate Williams for is revealing the hypocrisy of pretending anything else to be true.

He outed the league. He outed all of us.

Want the truth? We all have been paying bounties to NFL players for hurting opponents — in page views for our columns, in TV numbers, in jersey sales, in YouTube clicks — long before Williams.

The bounties do not lead to brain injuries. The violent nature of the sport does. The lack of respect for brain injuries and concussions is the bigger reason for long-term problems.

Real quick: What was more dangerous — Williams allowing $5,000 on the board for a big hit or sending Browns quarterback Colt McCoy back in with a concussion? (On a hit by Harrison, by the way.) Now which are we spending more time talking about?

What I almost guarantee is coming are more and more defensive guys admitting they had bounty programs. Maybe they were not as organized as New Orleans. Maybe they did not operate with tacit approval from the coach and GM. But former NFL quarterback and surefire Hall of Famer Brett Favre is right: There is not a team in the league that does not target and try to take out star players.

I am jumping ahead, though. Right now, we are at the frothy stage where we wrongly extrapolate that all of these guys are dying of dementia because of Williams and his bounty system, and not because of the very nature of football.

It is a genius plan. And it works for a while.

Journalists, in particular, love moral outrage. We will turn this into a Gregg Williams-New Orleans story and take turns acting shocked and appalled that violence is encouraged and rewarded in football.

What we eventually will learn is the players do not care, or they do care but are willing to assume the risks for a big payday. This is not unlike "Ice Road Truckers."

There are less dangerous roads. They do not pay as much.

The fans certainly do not care. Nor does the commissioner, despite what you have read and will undoubtedly read in coming days. Or maybe he does care, but he just cannot find his way out of the problem.

The league needs the violence. And it also needs to look like it is all about player safety. This is where New Orleans, Loomis, Payton and mostly Williams actually help.

Denounce, fire, ban, and then wait and hope.

Wait and hope for a Barry Bonds to come along and take heat off of the NFL for denouncing on a small scale what it does on a large one.

Notes: (1) When will "–gate" stop being a suffix for every single scandal, real or imagined? (2) In baseball, it was the high school player who killed himself because of, as his dad later testified before Congress, steroids. In football, Dave Duerson is the highest-profile case of a former NFL player taking his life in part because of problems he believed caused by a history of concussions. His son is now suing the league.

[chiefzilla1501]

Dude. Seriously.

Stop kidding yourself.

You think James Harrison knocks people out and hurts people weekly because he's just a hard nosed player?

He's TRYING to hurt people. Get a clue.

Most of his fines have been on hits that bordered on dirty. It just happens often. Yes, he intends to hurt. But he is usually inches away from making a legit football play. He doesn't cheap shot players on plays they are not supposed to be hit. He doesn't target injured areas of a player. He is a guy who gets rung up because he likes to tackle hard and tackle high.

[TheGuardian]

Most of his fines have been on hits that bordered on dirty. It just happens often. Yes, he intends to hurt. But he is usually inches away from making a legit football play. He doesn't cheap shot players on plays they are not supposed to be hit. He doesn't target injured areas of a player. He is a guy who gets rung up because he likes to tackle hard and tackle high.

Dude. I know what to tell you. You have your head in the sand.

These bounties are NOT new. They have been around forever. And again, Harrison is dirty as fuck. I have no idea what player it is you're talking about. He INTENDS to hurt people. Greg Lloyd was the same way and SAID as much. tons of defensive players have.

Jesus dude........

[chiefzilla1501]

Dude. I know what to tell you. You have your head in the sand.

These bounties are NOT new. They have been around forever. And again, Harrison is dirty as ****. I have no idea what player it is you're talking about. He INTENDS to hurt people. Greg Lloyd was the same way and SAID as much. tons of defensive players have.

Jesus dude........

They are trying to hurt people in the context of the rules. They sometimes tow the line and it goes beyond that.

That is completely different from intentionally making plays that are way outside the context of the rules. Harrison clocking a receiver catching a football is a legit tackle that is dirty based on your interpretation. Clocking favre after a handof isn't just dirty. Its a cheap shot. Going high low on anyone isn't a football play by any stretch. Intentionally hitting guys low because their ankles are bad is premeditated.

They are not the same thing.

[TheGuardian]

They are trying to hurt people in the context of the rules. They sometimes tow the line and it goes beyond that.

That is completely different from intentionally making plays that are way outside the context of the rules. Harrison clocking a receiver catching a football is a legit tackle that is dirty based on your interpretation. Clocking favre after a handof isn't just dirty. Its a cheap shot. Going high low on anyone isn't a football play by any stretch. Intentionally hitting guys low because their ankles are bad is premeditated.

They are not the same thing.

Dirty is dirty. You're trying to split hairs with this.

Second, if you think it's just "coincidence" that Harrison happens to earhole everyone he hits, you really are naive.

I mean was it dirty when the donks were doing the cut and roll? It injured people left and right, but it was within the frame work of the rules. It isn't now, but is it dirty when it happens now just because they made a rule, or was it dirty before when they did it and it was legal, but no less dangerous?

See you don't get it. It's not about rules and bounties and shit. It's about intent. If I intend to hurt you, it doesn't matter if there is a bounty or not. Harrison intends to hurt everyone. So who is worse, the team that goes after only 1 player with a bounty, or a team that has guys going after everyone, trying to hurt everyone for free?

The answer is neither. It's the same. Because the intent is the same. To put the other guy out of the game. It doesn't matter if I get to line my pockets after or not.

[KCUnited]

Lol, at all the faux hypocrisy outrage. Once your problems become the bosses problems, you get dealt with. This "everybody is doing it" bullshit is just going to pussify the league even further. You got caught, you take the fall.

[TheGuardian]

Lol, at all the faux hypocrisy outrage. Once your problems become the bosses problems, you get dealt with. This "everybody is doing it" bullshit is just going to pussify the league even further. You got caught, you take the fall.

Exactly.

Like I said, this shit is not new. And I find it hilarious that people bitch and moan about the league becoming pussified when they fine people for helmet to helmet shots, then act outraged at bounties. It's hilarious.

[chiefzilla1501]

The donks blocking scheme was dirty but it was used on a way thatcwas pwrfectlyvlegal and very effective. Harrison's hits are usually well within he context of the rules. Yes both teams tow the line between legal and illegal. Bit at least they have the argument most other tome that they are playing within he context of the rules.

In the Vikings game, on several occasions, the saints took cheap shots that were purely intended to be outside the context of therules. There was no gray area. High low hits are highly dangerous and a shitload worse than helmet to helmet. Clocking a qb after a handoff...that's something I've never seen before.

This isn't even factoring in the highly illegal practice of outside money funding these unclaimed bonuses.



Dirty is dirty. You're trying to split hairs with this.

Second, if you think it's just "coincidence" that Harrison happens to earhole everyone he hits, you really are naive.

I mean was it dirty when the donks were doing the cut and roll? It injured people left and right, but it was within the frame work of the rules. It isn't now, but is it dirty when it happens now just because they made a rule, or was it dirty before when they did it and it was legal, but no less dangerous?

See you don't get it. It's not about rules and bounties and shit. It's about intent. If I intend to hurt you, it doesn't matter if there is a bounty or not. Harrison intends to hurt everyone. So who is worse, the team that goes after only 1 player with a bounty, or a team that has guys going after everyone, trying to hurt everyone for free?

The answer is neither. It's the same. Because the intent is the same. To put the other guy out of the game. It doesn't matter if I get to line my pockets after or not.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Saints defender after Favre injury: “Pay me my money!”

Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2012, 4:29 PM EST

Getty Images
In a must-read account of the Saints’ three-season bounty system, Peter King of Sports Illustrated shares plenty of intriguing and compelling details. MDS already has highlighted portions of the article relating to Roger Goodell’s reaction to the situation and linebacker Scott Fujita’s position on the subject. But there’s even more good stuff.

During the 2009 NFC title game, which both sparked the league’s investigation and served as the most obvious example of assault and battery of an opposing quarterback, King writes that, after an unflagged high-low hit on Brett Favre resulted in a sprained ankle, an unnamed Saints defender was heard saying on an on-field microphone, “Pay me my money!”

(We know what you’re thinking: The league killed Monday’s re-air of the game on NFL Network because the comment could be heard during the broadcast. Apparently, however, it was a different microphone.)

King also explains that defensive end Anthony Hargrove can be heard saying, “Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!”

Both statements would be strong circumstantial proof of the existence of a bounty program, if the NFL hadn’t already found that the bounty program existed. And King spells out the weekly routine that unfolded during the 2009 season, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams’ first in New Orleans.

On Saturday night, Williams handed out in a defensive meeting envelopes containing payments for big plays and inflicted injuries from the prior Sunday. And the defenders would then chant, “Give it back! Give it back! Give it back!” Many did, which caused the pile of available cash to keep growing.

The bounty system continued even after, as King explains in the Tuesday edition of his MMQB column, former Vikings coach Brad Childress sent to the league video of eight different hits on Favre from that game, the Vikings officially alleged that the Saints had put a bounty on Favre, and Williams, linebackers coach Joe Vitt, and Hargrove denied (i.e., lied about) its existence to investigators. For Williams, the denials (i.e., lies) continued through the middle of February 2012, when Williams was confronted with evidence implicating him as the “ringleader.” Williams, per King, once again tried to deny it, but Williams then met with Goodell to confess.

Williams was back in New York on Monday, possibly to confess yet again (after possibly denying/lying yet again) his involvement in bounty systems in other cities.

King thinks the punishment issued to the Saints and various individuals will “likely dwarf” the penalties meted out for Spygate. The more we learn about the situation, the less surprising that will be.

[Hydrae]

Dirty is dirty. You're trying to split hairs with this.

Second, if you think it's just "coincidence" that Harrison happens to earhole everyone he hits, you really are naive.

I mean was it dirty when the donks were doing the cut and roll? It injured people left and right, but it was within the frame work of the rules. It isn't now, but is it dirty when it happens now just because they made a rule, or was it dirty before when they did it and it was legal, but no less dangerous?

See you don't get it. It's not about rules and bounties and shit. It's about intent. If I intend to hurt you, it doesn't matter if there is a bounty or not. Harrison intends to hurt everyone. So who is worse, the team that goes after only 1 player with a bounty, or a team that has guys going after everyone, trying to hurt everyone for free?

The answer is neither. It's the same. Because the intent is the same. To put the other guy out of the game. It doesn't matter if I get to line my pockets after or not.

They are not the same for one reason, one is officially sanctioned by the coaches, even encouraged financially. That is not the same as turning a blind eye to the way Harrison tries to jack people up.

To me the biggest problem with this whole mess is the outside money being involved. The rest may be (somewhat) defensible but that is clearly not.

[TheGuardian]

The donks blocking scheme was dirty but it was used on a way thatcwas pwrfectlyvlegal and very effective. Harrison's hits are usually well within he context of the rules. Yes both teams tow the line between legal and illegal. Bit at least they have the argument most other tome that they are playing within he context of the rules.

Harrison has been fined like eleventy billion fucking dollars for illegal hits!!! Are you that dumb?????


In the Vikings game, on several occasions, the saints took cheap shots that were purely intended to be outside the context of therules. There was no gray area. High low hits are highly dangerous and a shitload worse than helmet to helmet. Clocking a qb after a handoff...that's something I've never seen before.

This isn't even factoring in the highly illegal practice of outside money funding these unclaimed bonuses.

Were the Saints flagged for those hits????? I don't remember them being flagged.

If you want to split hairs then we can do that. I remember a bunch of shots on Favre and I don't remember a bunch of penalties.

Go to the store and get some god damn tampax, man.

[chiefzilla1501]

Saints defender after Favre injury: “Pay me my money!”

Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2012, 4:29 PM EST

Getty Images
In a must-read account of the Saints’ three-season bounty system, Peter King of Sports Illustrated shares plenty of intriguing and compelling details. MDS already has highlighted portions of the article relating to Roger Goodell’s reaction to the situation and linebacker Scott Fujita’s position on the subject. But there’s even more good stuff.

During the 2009 NFC title game, which both sparked the league’s investigation and served as the most obvious example of assault and battery of an opposing quarterback, King writes that, after an unflagged high-low hit on Brett Favre resulted in a sprained ankle, an unnamed Saints defender was heard saying on an on-field microphone, “Pay me my money!”

(We know what you’re thinking: The league killed Monday’s re-air of the game on NFL Network because the comment could be heard during the broadcast. Apparently, however, it was a different microphone.)

King also explains that defensive end Anthony Hargrove can be heard saying, “Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!”

Both statements would be strong circumstantial proof of the existence of a bounty program, if the NFL hadn’t already found that the bounty program existed. And King spells out the weekly routine that unfolded during the 2009 season, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams’ first in New Orleans.

On Saturday night, Williams handed out in a defensive meeting envelopes containing payments for big plays and inflicted injuries from the prior Sunday. And the defenders would then chant, “Give it back! Give it back! Give it back!” Many did, which caused the pile of available cash to keep growing.

The bounty system continued even after, as King explains in the Tuesday edition of his MMQB column, former Vikings coach Brad Childress sent to the league video of eight different hits on Favre from that game, the Vikings officially alleged that the Saints had put a bounty on Favre, and Williams, linebackers coach Joe Vitt, and Hargrove denied (i.e., lied about) its existence to investigators. For Williams, the denials (i.e., lies) continued through the middle of February 2012, when Williams was confronted with evidence implicating him as the “ringleader.” Williams, per King, once again tried to deny it, but Williams then met with Goodell to confess.

Williams was back in New York on Monday, possibly to confess yet again (after possibly denying/lying yet again) his involvement in bounty systems in other cities.

King thinks the punishment issued to the Saints and various individuals will “likely dwarf” the penalties meted out for Spygate. The more we learn about the situation, the less surprising that will be.

But.. but... this happens everywhere. There are dozens of teams with players who have made tweets and statements over mic about payment for injury. There are dozens of instances of outsiders pooling money into a bounty program. Josh Freeman, Brett Favre, Adrian Peterson, Brad Childress, and the long list of accusers of New Orleans Saints being uniquely dirty... they're just saying that because every team does it. Right?

[chiefzilla1501]

Harrison has been fined like eleventy billion ****ing dollars for illegal hits!!! Are you that dumb?????



Were the Saints flagged for those hits????? I don't remember them being flagged.

If you want to split hairs then we can do that. I remember a bunch of shots on Favre and I don't remember a bunch of penalties.

Go to the store and get some god damn tampax, man.

Yes. They were flagged twice. For some unknown reason, not flagged on the high-low. They were fined for three separate hits. In ONE GAME.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i1tkbcxIno

One hit was an unexcused cheap shot that occurred right after Favre handed. 0:20 in. Complete cheap shot. I think the 1:11 tackle was flagged. That one's a little more borderline but clear roughing penalty. 1:32 -- that's about as cheap a shot as you're going to find. There is no excuse for going that low and you can't tell me that wasn't meant to take his injured ankles out.

[TheGuardian]

Yes. They were flagged twice. For some unknown reason, not flagged on the high-low. They were fined for three separate hits. In ONE GAME.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i1tkbcxIno

One hit was an unexcused cheap shot that occurred right after Favre handed. 0:20 in. Complete cheap shot. I think the 1:11 tackle was flagged. That one's a little more borderline but clear roughing penalty. 1:32 -- that's about as cheap a shot as you're going to find. There is no excuse for going that low and you can't tell me that wasn't meant to take his injured ankles out.

Wait was it a cheap shot? Why wasn't it flagged????

You said James Harrison plays within the rules, but his hits are flagged and he's fined.

Dude you're an idiot.

[Carlota69]

They promise to never ever do it again!

Payton, Loomis issue joint statement
Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2012, 5:24 PM EST

[Editor's note: Saints coach Sean Payton and Saints G.M. Mickey Loomis have issued a joint statement regarding the bounty system that the Saints utilized from 2009 through 2011. The full text of the statement appears below.]

We acknowledge that the violations disclosed by the NFL during their investigation of our club happened under our watch. We take full responsibility.

This has brought undue hardship on Mr. Benson, who had nothing to do with this activity. He has been nothing but supportive and for that we both apologize to him.

These are serious violations and we understand the negative impact it has had on our game. Both of us have made it clear within our organization that this will never happen again, and make that same promise to the NFL and most importantly to all of our fan

[talastan]

Well are we going to see draft picks forfeited? :hmmm:

[chiefzilla1501]

Wait was it a cheap shot? Why wasn't it flagged????

You said James Harrison plays within the rules, but his hits are flagged and he's fined.

Dude you're an idiot.

The play was later flagged by the league. Just because it wasn't flagged doesn't mean it was the right call.

[TheGuardian]

The play was later flagged by the league. Just because it wasn't flagged doesn't mean it was the right call.

So is James Harrison dirty for being the most fined player in the league?

Again, you're trying to say one is just playing hard nosed football and the other are a bunch of dirty players.

It's laughable.

[Al Bundy]

They promise to never ever do it again!

Payton, Loomis issue joint statement
Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2012, 5:24 PM EST

[Editor's note: Saints coach Sean Payton and Saints G.M. Mickey Loomis have issued a joint statement regarding the bounty system that the Saints utilized from 2009 through 2011. The full text of the statement appears below.]

We acknowledge that the violations disclosed by the NFL during their investigation of our club happened under our watch. We take full responsibility.

This has brought undue hardship on Mr. Benson, who had nothing to do with this activity. He has been nothing but supportive and for that we both apologize to him.

These are serious violations and we understand the negative impact it has had on our game. Both of us have made it clear within our organization that this will never happen again, and make that same promise to the NFL and most importantly to all of our fan

Tough shit. Fuck them and fuck their apologists.

[TheGuardian]

Tough shit. **** them and **** their apologists.

Go watch golf pussy.

[thecoffeeguy]

Well are we going to see draft picks forfeited? :hmmm:

At the very minimum.
This will make Spygate look like a walk in the park.

[Dave Lane]

::::looks to buy a Vilma jersey online::::::

I don't even like Farve but you sir are a complete douche bag.

[Dave Lane]

At the very minimum.
This will make Spygate look like a walk in the park.

And it should. I'd love to see Guardian get crippled by some bozo at his work that gets a fiver for doing it.

[thecoffeeguy]

And it should. I'd love to see Guardian get crippled by some bozo at his work that gets a fiver for doing it.

I'll take a guess at punishment.

Forfeit number 1 this year and maybe next year, perhaps more picks.
Sean Payton and Loomis suspended a year.
Greg Williams, geez, minimum 1 year suspension.
Saints organization hit with 500,000 fine, at least.
Vilma suspended a year and fine.
Other players as well suspended, just dont have all the details on whom.

[chiefzilla1501]

So is James Harrison dirty for being the most fined player in the league?

Again, you're trying to say one is just playing hard nosed football and the other are a bunch of dirty players.

It's laughable.

No, I don't have a problem with James Harrison. He had one cheap shot pile drive on Vince Young years ago that was fined. That was inexcusable. The rest are football plays geared toward hitting a player hard so he can knock the ball loose (some were complete BS fines). It's dirty as hell and I don't condone it. But you know what, it's still a 50/50 thing. In many cases, they are clean hits. In some cases, they are fined. In some cases, they are unjustly fined. At least the intent was to make a football play. The difference is I don't think Harrison is hitting the way he does with the intent of going helmet-to-helmet. While his style of play unfortunately makes it happen more often than the average player, it does not appear that he hits the way he does with the intention of making an illegal hit. And he certainly doesn't target a specific player to knock out so that he can create a competitive advantage.

That is completely different from what happened in Minnesota. New Orleans wasn't targeting Favre to get him to cough up the ball. They were targeting him to knock him out of the game. That meant clocking him on a cheap shot where he wasn't even in a position to make any kind of a play. That meant going low on his injured ankle... surprise, in a key tie-game situation. In those situations, there is no excuse. The player knows it's highly illegal and yet he does it anyway. That's totally different. That's putting a bullseye on the top players of the team, and very purposefully using illegal hits and cheap shots that aren't at all required to make a football play, in order to knock the player out of the game and create a competitive advantage.

What Harrison is doing is equivalent to pitching up and in and accidentally hitting somebody on the head. What the Saints are doing is throwing a 95 mph purpose pitch drilled right into the batter's back. Even if the former is more dangerous, the latter is the one that will get you tossed every single time.