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Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 03:30 AM
This is also an excellent article explaining some of their grading process.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/02/pff-mailbag-april-2-2012/

You guys have talked a lot about Barry Richardson dragging down the quality of the Chiefs’ line. Now that they’ve added Eric Winston, how do you think their line grades out compared to the rest of the league? – Matt Conner


Ben Stockwell: The addition of Winston immediately makes the Chiefs one of the best offensive lines in the league. In terms of an offensive line ranking, Winston not only upgrades a line that we ranked 16th in the 2011 season, it plugs their biggest weakness and also takes away one of the best players from our fifth-ranked offensive line from last season. It doesn’t solve all of their problems, but any time that you can replace arguably the worst right tackle in the league with arguably the best, well you can’t really make a bigger jump than that.

You can only really imagine where the Chiefs might be if they hadn’t made the hasty decision of cutting Jared Gaither during the middle of the year. A line of Gaither at left tackle, Winston at right tackle and shifting Branden Albert inside to his collegiate position of guard would be a fearsome group for the Chiefs’ backfield duo of Jamaal Charles and Peyton Hillis to run behind. As it is, they don’t have Gaither anymore, but they’re not exactly short changed.

The biggest obstacle for the Chiefs to improve in 2012 will be getting more from there interior offensive line as run blockers. Winston really helps them on the edge–not only in upgrading their pass protection, but also helping them spring more runs off-tackle–but Jon Asamoah and Ryan Lilja really need to up their game as interior run blockers. It’s just about all this line is missing now that they have made that big leap at right tackle.

ChiefMojo
04-03-2012, 05:08 AM
This is where drafting someone like OG David DeCastro at #11 make the Chiefs have arguably the best OL in all of football (or at least on their way to having the best once were a little more seasoned).

Blick
04-03-2012, 05:27 AM
It seems like center has been the forgotten position so far this off-season. We've heard a lot more about how we need to upgrade at nose, inside LB, and safety, but I think center is right up there in terms of importance.

I like Hudson, but he's unproven, and his natural position is guard.

I'd like to see the Chiefs get a true center at some point in the draft and have Hudson take Lilja's spot.

ChiefMojo
04-03-2012, 05:29 AM
Still would much rather just keep Hudson at center and just get a vet to back him up if he isn't ready.

prhom
04-03-2012, 05:40 AM
It seems like center has been the forgotten position so far this off-season. We've heard a lot more about how we need to upgrade at nose, inside LB, and safety, but I think center is right up there in terms of importance.

I like Hudson, but he's unproven, and his natural position is guard.

I'd like to see the Chiefs get a true center at some point in the draft and have Hudson take Lilja's spot.

The guys on NFL network over the weekend were talking about DeCastro and mentioned that he did some drills as a center on his pro day. This article also lauds his flexibility and even talent playing as not only a guard but a center too.

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012/04/draft-profile-david-decastro-g-stanford.html

I think this makes DeCastro an even better pick at #11. We get a guy who can be great at guard, or if Hudson can't hack it at center or gets injured, step in and play center at the same level. Drafting a great player who gives you flexibility and a contingency plan on o line is a no-brainier. Unless Richardson somehow makes it to us or we get a ridiculous offer to trade down I think he's our pick.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 05:49 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

Blick
04-03-2012, 05:52 AM
Still would much rather just keep Hudson at center and just get a vet to back him up if he isn't ready.

Which vet?

The guys on NFL network over the weekend were talking about DeCastro and mentioned that he did some drills as a center on his pro day. This article also lauds his flexibility and even talent playing as not only a guard but a center too.

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012/04/draft-profile-david-decastro-g-stanford.html

I think this makes DeCastro an even better pick at #11. We get a guy who can be great at guard, or if Hudson can't hack it at center or gets injured, step in and play center at the same level. Drafting a great player who gives you flexibility and a contingency plan on o line is a no-brainier. Unless Richardson somehow makes it to us or we get a ridiculous offer to trade down I think he's our pick.

I like versatility, but for some reason, I don't like guards moving to center. I like natural centers. The center-QB exchange is not something I like putting in the hands of an inexperienced guy.

Blick
04-03-2012, 06:00 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

Win what? The division? One playoff game? A Superbowl?

I think Cassel, with the talent around him, can play like Trent Green. Green's QB ratings from 2002-2005 are 92.6, 92.6, 95.2, and 90.1. Cassel's QB rating in 2010 was 93.

It would be interesting to see how far QB play like that could take us with the defense that we have now.

tyton75
04-03-2012, 06:07 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

If we get that type of line coupled with a staunch NT on the other side to shore up the D-Line; I think we could contend for it.

LOCOChief
04-03-2012, 06:13 AM
Hudson will be a big improvement over wiegmann. Just because he played primarily gaurd in college doesn't mean that's his natural position.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 06:17 AM
I think Cassel, with the talent around him, can play like Trent Green. Green's QB ratings from 2002-2005 are 92.6, 92.6, 95.2, and 90.1. Cassel's QB rating in 2010 was 93. .

ROFL

Now compare their completion percentages and yards per attempt.

Not remotely the same QB.

Green was a top 10 QB during his time here. Cassel is about the 20th best QB in the league. Maybe a few spots worse.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 06:25 AM
ROFL

Now compare their completion percentages and yards per attempt.

Not remotely the same QB.

Green was a top 10 QB during his time here. Cassel is about the 20th best QB in the league. Maybe a few spots worse.

But can we win a playoff game?

Deberg_1990
04-03-2012, 06:26 AM
You can only really imagine where the Chiefs might be if they hadn’t made the hasty decision of cutting Jared Gaither during the middle of the year. A line of Gaither at left tackle, Winston at right tackle and shifting Branden Albert inside to his collegiate position of guard would be a fearsome group for the Chiefs’ backfield duo of Jamaal Charles and Peyton Hillis to run behind. As it is, they don’t have Gaither anymore, but they’re not exactly short changed.



Thanks Haley!

Dave Lane
04-03-2012, 06:29 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

I think so. If Cassel could have 7 seconds to throw he could hurt you. Of course almost any QB would be HOF bound with that much time.

Dave Lane
04-03-2012, 06:29 AM
Thanks Haley!

Meh Baltimore cut him too. There's more there than what we saw.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 06:32 AM
But can we win a playoff game?

Against the right opponent, at HOME, probably.

Forget home playoff games. We aren't winning the division.

whoman69
04-03-2012, 06:56 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

The defense is certainly better than that team, but Cassel's inconsistency doesn't give them as high a ceiling. Any talk of this being a championship team is moot despite the pieces of the puzzle are added as long as Check Down is under center.

jspchief
04-03-2012, 06:59 AM
But can we win a playoff game?Yes.

Probably dependent on the opponent, but yeah. I'm sure playing with a line that dominant and a top 15 defense we would be capable of beating any team.

But hell, Denver won a playoff game with Tim Tebow. Doesn't mean it's a recipe for success.

Micjones
04-03-2012, 06:59 AM
Looking forward to the Chiefs taking at least one Interior Offensive Lineman early.
Round 2 or 3 preferably.

Deberg_1990
04-03-2012, 07:00 AM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

Good enough to win and make the playoffs yes. ANything other than that is a pipe dream.


Cassel has won 10 and 11 games before. Hes not complete garbage contrary to popular belief.

IMO hes one of those guys who plays "just good enough" to save his job and crush your dreams.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 07:49 AM
Thanks Haley!

Come on man. That whole paragraph is based on the premise of moving Albert inside and playing Gaither at LT.

Gaither hasn't played a whole season in like 3 years. Do you really want to move Albert for THAT?

yeti
04-03-2012, 08:00 AM
Which vet?



I like versatility, but for some reason, I don't like guards moving to center. I like natural centers. The center-QB exchange is not something I like putting in the hands of an inexperienced guy.

Philip Rivers says "THIS"

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 08:01 AM
I really wish these fucking morons would STFU about moving Albert.

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 08:01 AM
Cassel could have Roaf, Hutchinson, Dawson, Shields and Eric Williams in front of him, and it wouldnt make him any more accurate, stronger or clutch.

I hope Peter King was right yesterday in MMQB when he said 'Matt Cassel shouldnt sleep too lightly on his pillow tonight'.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 08:09 AM
Cassel could have Roaf, Hutchinson, Dawson, Shields and Eric Williams in front of him, and it wouldnt make him any more accurate, stronger or clutch.

I hope Peter King was right yesterday in MMQB when he said 'Matt Cassel shouldnt sleep too lightly on his pillow tonight'.

Why should Cassel worry at all? They failed to acquire a QB that can best him in a competition, if indeed there ever even is a competition.

King loves all things Patriot. He's helping his buddy Pioli out by playing up the ruse.

Molitoth
04-03-2012, 08:10 AM
Branden Albert inside to his collegiate position of guard

I didn't know Albert was a guard...

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 08:15 AM
I didn't know Albert was a guard...

Have you been under a rock?

Saul Good
04-03-2012, 08:16 AM
Still would much rather just keep Hudson at center and just get a vet to back him up if he isn't ready.

How can we "keep" Hudson at Center? The guy has never snapped the ball in the NFL nor did he ever start a game there in college.

He was a 3* recruit at Center in high school who blossomed into an All-American Guard in college. How many times do we have to watch the Chiefs switch players' positions around to disasterous results before we quit pining for a patchwork team?

prhom
04-03-2012, 08:33 AM
How can we "keep" Hudson at Center? The guy has never snapped the ball in the NFL nor did he ever start a game there in college.

He was a 3* recruit at Center in high school who blossomed into an All-American Guard in college. How many times do we have to watch the Chiefs switch players' positions around to disasterous results before we quit pining for a patchwork team?

Hudson is an unknown quantity at center, and none of us know just how comfortable Crennel is going into the season with Hudson as our center. Though one would think he's pretty comfortable with him or I think we'd have been more active in going after Wells. Surely the plan isn't to draft a center and have himstart over a guy we've been working on at that position for a year? Maybe that's our plan a, trade down and take Konz... theres too many variables to know at this point.

beach tribe
04-03-2012, 08:46 AM
Thanks Haley!
Albert would have just left next off-season to be a LT.

RealSNR
04-03-2012, 08:48 AM
Win what? The division? One playoff game? A Superbowl?

I think Cassel, with the talent around him, can play like Trent Green. Green's QB ratings from 2002-2005 are 92.6, 92.6, 95.2, and 90.1. Cassel's QB rating in 2010 was 93.

It would be interesting to see how far QB play like that could take us with the defense that we have now.
I don't want 2010 Cassel numbers. I want a real QB who doesn't shit his pants in the playoffs.

At least Green could keep shit interesting.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 08:49 AM
I didn't know Albert was a guard...

He played tackle for one year. That squad was absolutely LOADED on the line and Albert moved inside to allow for some other guys to get time at tackle.

Frazod
04-03-2012, 08:50 AM
I can't believe anybody would shit on Trent Green by comparing Cassel to him. :shake:

Saul Good
04-03-2012, 09:01 AM
He played tackle for one year. That squad was absolutely LOADED on the line and Albert moved inside to allow for some other guys to get time at tackle.

They had an incredible line...and they were a mediocre team. Maybe the Chiefs can use that as a blueprint for building our team.

Bewbies
04-03-2012, 09:02 AM
They had an incredible line...and they were a mediocre team. Maybe the Chiefs can use that as a blueprint for building our team.

LMAO

Brilliant!

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 09:11 AM
They had an incredible line...and they were a mediocre team. Maybe the Chiefs can use that as a blueprint for building our team.

Touche! :clap:

Blick
04-03-2012, 10:01 AM
ROFL

Now compare their completion percentages and yards per attempt.

Not remotely the same QB.

Green was a top 10 QB during his time here. Cassel is about the 20th best QB in the league. Maybe a few spots worse.

We've been through this. I know the differences in their numbers.

I didn't say they were the same QB. I said Cassel could play like Green, production wise...if he gets a lot of help. He's already proved he can put up Green's production with help from the schedule. Now, the schedule's tougher, but the team around him is better to help cancel that out.

With the huge upgrade at RT, and the continued development of Albert, Asamoah, and Hudson, Cassel should have a consistently comfortable pocket, which should give him more confidence to make plays.

Blick
04-03-2012, 10:08 AM
I don't want 2010 Cassel numbers. I want a real QB who doesn't shit his pants in the playoffs.

At least Green could keep shit interesting.

Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.

Mr. Laz
04-03-2012, 10:11 AM
I really wish these fucking morons would STFU about moving Albert.
ROFLROFL

everyone in the world, but some stupid fucks on this board realize that Albert is a REALLY,REALLY good guard playing left tackle.

Will Shield could play tackle too

Coogs
04-03-2012, 10:14 AM
Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.

Im thinking everyone would be happy with that, BUT... most of us feel the stars and the planets were all aligned that season for those numbers to have happened.

His RB averaged 6.2 per carry. First hint of danger, ball was in row 13. Checkdowns were the order of the day, every Sunday. And all was good when we were playing in the lead against a weak schedule. When the good teams showed up on Sundays, and that formula didn't get us the lead... :shake:

Mr. Laz
04-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Every QB is going to look 50% better with an Oline that they trust to not let them get smashed and a running game that pick up 5 yards a touch.

Chief Roundup
04-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.

Without Weis you will not see those numbers out of Cassel.

RealSNR
04-03-2012, 10:25 AM
Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.That stat is worthless until Cassel bumps up his passing totals and yards per completion numbers. 27 TDs is nice, but so many of them were goal line TDs.

Do you want to face Baltimore again in the playoffs with a QB they don't respect? I sure as fuck don't. Baltimore didn't come into the game saying, "Uh oh, watch out guys. Their QB threw 27 TDs!" They KNEW Cassel was a fucking fraud.

It will be the same fucking shit if we get 2010 Cassel numbers. You can't throw TE bubble screens all day and expect to win a fucking playoff game.

htismaqe
04-03-2012, 10:27 AM
ROFLROFL

everyone in the world, but some stupid ****s on this board realize that Albert is a REALLY,REALLY good guard playing left tackle.

Will Shield could play tackle too

Albert is a left tackle. He moved to guard because he COULD. He started at tackle his freshman year at Virginia but moved to guard because Ferguson and 5-star recruit Eugene Monroe could ONLY play left tackle.

beach tribe
04-03-2012, 10:30 AM
ROFLROFL

everyone in the world, but some stupid ****s on this board realize that Albert is a REALLY,REALLY good guard playing left tackle.

Will Shield could play tackle too

Wha??

Frosty
04-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Albert is a left tackle. He moved to guard because he COULD. He started at tackle his freshman year at Virginia but moved to guard because Ferguson and 5-star recruit Eugene Monroe could ONLY play left tackle.

He's also played LT in the NFL longer than he played guard in college. Switching him to guard at this point would also guarantee that we lose him next year in FA as he is going to want LT money, not guard money.

I can't believe that it has been four years and we are still getting "move Albert to guard" BS. :shake:

Saul Good
04-03-2012, 10:36 AM
ROFLROFL

everyone in the world, but some stupid ****s on this board realize that Albert is a REALLY,REALLY good guard playing left tackle.

Will Shield could play tackle too

Hey Brandon, you're a top 15 LT in the NFL and due to be a free agent. Whaddaya say we move you to Guard where you could make half as much money as you would at LT?

Sign me up!!!

Dayze
04-03-2012, 10:46 AM
No amount of weapons will help Cassel. I don't like taking offensive line in the first. Especially at 11, assuming they can't move down. I'd much rather spend them on performance positions.

Though if we stay put and have to go o line I suppose there is some value in DeCastro being able to possibly play two positions.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 10:54 AM
I didn't say they were the same QB. I said Cassel could play like Green, production wise...if he gets a lot of help.

No, he couldn't.

He can't throw the ball down the field consistently, even with protection. He's never going to be that guy.

He's had games here in the past when the protection was fine, and he blew it with a horrible pass to a receiver who was wide open.


He's already proved he can put up Green's production with help from the schedule.


No, he hasn't. He's never thrown for 4,000 yards, let ALONE 4,500, as a Chief.

He's never completed more than 58 percent of his passes here. He's never led the #1 offense, which is something Green did more than once.

Cassel is never, ever, ever, ever, EVER going to be anything like Trent Green. He does not have the same level of innate talent.

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 11:02 AM
ROFLROFL

everyone in the world, but some stupid fucks on this board realize that Albert is a REALLY,REALLY good guard playing left tackle.

Will Shield could play tackle too

You've overdosed on stupid today.

Blick
04-03-2012, 11:08 AM
Without Weis you will not see those numbers out of Cassel.

We'll see. I have a feeling that the rest of the offense is going to do a great job carrying Cassel and making him look better than he really is.

That stat is worthless until Cassel bumps up his passing totals and yards per completion numbers. 27 TDs is nice, but so many of them were goal line TDs.

Do you want to face Baltimore again in the playoffs with a QB they don't respect? I sure as **** don't. Baltimore didn't come into the game saying, "Uh oh, watch out guys. Their QB threw 27 TDs!" They KNEW Cassel was a ****ing fraud.

It will be the same ****ing shit if we get 2010 Cassel numbers. You can't throw TE bubble screens all day and expect to win a ****ing playoff game.

And I'm saying he's probably going to bump up those numbers with the players around him. You don't think he'll throw a lot of goal line TD's? Bowe, Baldwin, Moeaki, Boss...all big targets. All guys who can adjust to shitty Cassel passes. The red zone offense has the potential to be a handful.

It would be a different game against Baltimore now...even if Cassel is the same. The team around him is much better. Would it be good enough to win? I don't know. Do I want to be in the playoffs with Cassel as my QB? Fuck no. I'm just hoping the rest of the team can carry the guy. They might be good enough to do that.

Chief Roundup
04-03-2012, 11:11 AM
You've overdosed on stupid today.

Today???? Lately.

Blick
04-03-2012, 11:58 AM
No, he hasn't. He's never thrown for 4,000 yards, let ALONE 4,500, as a Chief.

He's never completed more than 58 percent of his passes here. He's never led the #1 offense, which is something Green did more than once.

Cassel is never, ever, ever, ever, EVER going to be anything like Trent Green. He does not have the same level of innate talent.

Call me when passing yardage shows up on the scoreboard. It has even less meaning in our offense with as much as we like to run the ball.

We can cherry pick stats all day. Green matched Cassel's 27 TD's once, but never surpassed it. Cassel has NEVER thrown more INT's than TD's in a single season. Green did. 4 times.

The backbone of those #1 offenses was the offensive line, not Trent Green. He was helped out immensely by his supporting cast, just like Cassel.

Again, I'm not saying Cassel is like Trent Green...I'm saying his PRODUCTION can be. You understand that, right? That guys can have similar statistical seasons, but be different types of players?

LOL at the innate talent comment. Cassel is actually the more naturally gifted guy. He was the 8th overall QB in his high school class, and the 53rd overall PLAYER. He went to an elite college program. Green went to ****ing Indiana. I'm sure Cassel could have started for a lot of different schools. Even though Cassel didn't even play, he was only drafted 8 spots lower than Green. Trent developing better as a pro doesn't mean he was more innately talented. There are a lot of other factors that go into success in the NFL.

Frosty
04-03-2012, 12:03 PM
Call me when passing yardage shows up on the scoreboard.

It shows up in moving the chains and keeping the defense fresh, something Cassel is horrible at. You could see the difference last season when Orton came in. He didn't put up gaudy stats but he was capable of moving the chains and you could see the difference in how the defense responded.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 12:04 PM
Call me when passing yardage shows up on the scoreboard.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Top 5 passers from last year:

1. Drew Brees
2. Tom Brady
3. Matt Stafford
4. Eli Manning
5. Aaron Rodgers

Those teams won:

13, 13, 10, 9 and 15 games in the regular season and THE SUPER BOWL.

This is a passing league and we'd have a much better chance to win a playoff game if Cassel was a talented passer. He's not.

OnTheWarpath15
04-03-2012, 12:07 PM
Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.

Would you prefer 27/7 and a one-and-done in the playoffs, or 29/16 and a Super Bowl win?

27/7 means dick if you can't perform when the stakes are the highest.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 12:08 PM
Again, I'm not saying Cassel is like Trent Green...I'm saying his PRODUCTION can be. You understand that, right? That guys can have similar statistical seasons, but be different types of players?

Yes, I understand that.

You're wrong.

Trent Green had multiple 4,000 yard seasons here and that is PRODUCTION.

Cassel will never EVER be that QB because HE CAN'T THROW THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD.

You understand that, right?


LOL at the innate talent comment. Cassel is actually the more naturally gifted guy.

No, he's not. He's bigger and more mobile, that's it. Green had a better arm and better accuracy, and was more mentally sharp. And those ARE god given talents. Some guys have accuracy, some don't. Cassel doesn't.

DTLB58
04-03-2012, 12:27 PM
I wonder if everyone has really done the research on Winston and not just assuming he is better than B. R. Just cause it's a different name.
Winston gave up 17 sacks the last 2 seasons. I'm not sure how his signing alone made the Chiefs line so much more better as this guy writes.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 12:30 PM
I wonder if everyone has really done the research on Winston and not just assuming he is better than B. R. Just cause it's a different name.
Winston gave up 17 sacks the last 2 seasons. I'm not sure how his signing alone made the Chiefs line so much more better as this guy writes.

:facepalm:

Looking at sack numbers alone is not going to give you a true picture of the player.

Eric Winston gave up almost HALF as many pressures as Barry Richardson last season. They are not remotely comparable as pass protectors.

And Richardson isn't even a good run blocker. Winston is a great run blocker.

DTLB58
04-03-2012, 12:35 PM
:facepalm:

Looking at sack numbers alone is not going to give you a true picture of the player.

Eric Winston gave up almost HALF as many pressures as Barry Richardson last season. They are not remotely comparable as pass protectors.

And Richardson isn't even a good run blocker. Winston is a great run blocker.
I understand he is a better run blocker.
But really? Pressures? If that # was reversed you would be using it against BR all day long.
I don't have the #'s but Texans fans will tell you most of his sacks were given up on 3rd down. Not good.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 12:40 PM
But really? Pressures? If that # was reversed you would be using it against BR all day long.

What? No. That doesn't even make sense.

Eric Winston was the 11th rated pass blocker OUT OF ALL OFFENSIVE TACKLES last season. Richardson was like the 5th WORST.

It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to make a comparison between the two.

Looking at sack numbers alone is not going to give you a true picture. Giving up 7 sacks in a 16-game season is acceptable. Guys like Tyron Smith and D'Brickshaw Ferugson gave up 8 sacks last season and both are excellent players.

And most sacks are on third down, so that's not really an issue. I mean, probably every tackle in the league gave up most of their sacks on third down.

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 12:41 PM
Jeeez, thought these dumb arguments for Albert to guard died a long time ago & Cassel vs Green is so ****ing hilarious as to defy belief.

DaWolf
04-03-2012, 01:08 PM
No, he's not. He's bigger and more mobile, that's it. Green had a better arm and better accuracy, and was more mentally sharp. And those ARE god given talents. Some guys have accuracy, some don't. Cassel doesn't.

I don't think Green really had a great arm, but it was adequate. He was more accurate than Cassel, that's a fact, but I think we'd be lying to ourselves if we didn't acknowledge that a lot of that had to do with him playing with the best OL of that decade in front of him. He could stand back there often times and wait for routes to open up/throwing windows to become available. And it helps when you have a HOF security blanked in Tony Gonzales to throw to, and a RB like Priest Holmes to check down to, as Holmes had a couple of 70 catch seasons in there.

Green was a decent QB, but I think a lot of people on this board overvalue him. To me, he was the classic guy who thrived when surrounded by talent and playing in a system suited to use his strengths and hide his weaknesses. You only have to look at his first season to see what a disaster he was when things weren't peachy around him. But he was DV's pet QB, and they surrounded him with all the pieces.

Still, he wasn't dynamic enough to ever lead us to the playoffs under DV more than that one year...

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 01:16 PM
Wow, that's some epic Green underselling there. He was a tremendous game manager. Cassel has never shown that. He doesn't complete passes at a high percentage. He doesn't have any ability to stretch the field. He brings absolutely nothing to the table that elevates the play of the people around him. Put 2002 Green on the field with last season's offense (including the line), even without Charles, and he throws for 4000 yards and 20+ DTs. I think he makes the playoffs with that team. He was a much, much better quarterback than Cassel has ever been, at any point.

And the "dynamic enough to ever lead us to the playoffs" is about the lamest argument you can possibly make about a guy who quarterbacked a top-5 offense for 4 years, on a team that was saddled with a historically weak defense. He more than did his part (including in the one playoff loss they had). Put him behind center on last year's team, they make the playoffs and beat Pittsburgh. No question at all in my mind.

Cassel's a lot closer to Tyler Thigpen than he is to Trent Green. Hell, he's not even Damon Huard.

yeti
04-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Jeeez, thought these dumb arguments for Albert to guard died a long time ago & Cassel vs Green is so ****ing hilarious as to defy belief.

When the news is slow we might as well bitch about the classics.

Frosty
04-03-2012, 01:34 PM
When the news is slow we might as well bitch about the classics.



Dammit Carl! :cuss:

Blick
04-03-2012, 01:42 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME?

Top 5 passers from last year:

1. Drew Brees
2. Tom Brady
3. Matt Stafford
4. Eli Manning
5. Aaron Rodgers

Those teams won:

13, 13, 10, 9 and 15 games in the regular season and THE SUPER BOWL.

This is a passing league and we'd have a much better chance to win a playoff game if Cassel was a talented passer. He's not.

I know it's a passing league.

I never said Cassel was a talented passer.

All I'm saying is scoring points > gaining yards

Blick
04-03-2012, 01:44 PM
Would you prefer 27/7 and a one-and-done in the playoffs, or 29/16 and a Super Bowl win?

27/7 means dick if you can't perform when the stakes are the highest.

I said "obviously we want a real QB"...

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 02:02 PM
I know it's a passing league.

I never said Cassel was a talented passer.

All I'm saying is scoring points > gaining yards

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

THOSE TEAMS SCORE LOTS OF POINTS AND WIN LOTS OF GAMES BECAUSE THEIR QUARTERBACKS RACK UP THE PASSING YARDS.

WHAT PART OF THIS IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Blick
04-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Trent Green didn't have a 4000 yard season until he was 33 years old.

Before that, he was pretty Cassel-ish.

He was 31 years old in 2001 when he posted a 56.6 completion % (lower than each of Cassel's last 2 years) and had 17 TD's and 24 INT's. That's fucking awful.

BUT OH MAN HE THREW FOR 3783 YARDS AND THE CHIEFS HAD THE 5TH BEST OFFENSE IN THE LEAGUE IN YARDS!

Too bad they were 16th in scoring and went 6-10.

RustShack
04-03-2012, 03:39 PM
Green was pretty bad before and after his time in KC. He was great with a great OL, running game, and TE.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 03:42 PM
Trent Green didn't have a 4000 yard season until he was 33 years old.

Before that, he was pretty Cassel-ish.


Yeah, no one cares. That wasn't the real Trent Green. That was Green surrounded by scrubs trying to bail water out of a dinghy.


BUT OH MAN HE THREW FOR 3783 YARDS AND THE CHIEFS HAD THE 5TH BEST OFFENSE IN THE LEAGUE IN YARDS!

Too bad they were 16th in scoring and went 6-10.

That was TEN years ago, and we had the worst defense in the league.

The rules have changed. If Cassel could put up Trent Green numbers, even 2002 Trent Green numbers, we'd be Super Bowl contenders. Green averaged 7.85 YPA in 2002. That is OUTSTANDING.

Cassel will never produce like Green. Not in a million years. He'll be dead and gone in two, anyway.

RustShack
04-03-2012, 03:44 PM
So since Brady Quinn was surrounded by scrubs before, we will see the real one this year? Can't wait, because hes more talented than Green was! Younger too!

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 03:44 PM
Oh, and Green was showing he could play at a high level in this league far before the age of 33. He averaged 8.6 YPA for the Rams in 2000. Had he started every game that year he'd have hit 4,000 yards easily.

Do not ever compare Matt Cassel and Trent Green. It's a fucking insult, to green, and to the intelligence of Chiefs fans.

Green was pretty bad before and after his time in KC. He was great with a great OL, running game, and TE.

Wrong. Green was an excellent QB in Washington and St. Louis.

Fucking morons.

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 03:50 PM
Oh, and Green was showing he could play at a high level in this league far before the age of 33. He averaged 8.6 YPA for the Rams in 2000. Had he started every game that year he'd have hit 4,000 yards easily.

Do not ever compare Matt Cassel and Trent Green. It's a fucking insult, to green, and to the intelligence of Chiefs fans.



Wrong. Green was an excellent QB in Washington and St. Louis.

Fucking morons.

He was not excellent in Washington. 54.6%?

Very Cassel-like numbers.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 03:54 PM
He was not excellent in Washington. 54.6%?

Very Cassel-like numbers.

It was his first year starting and he threw 23 TD and 11 INT. 3400 yards.

That's not awesome but HE GOT BETTER. It certainly wasn't "pretty bad."

"Pretty bad" is what Cassel was last season, and what his last 11 shit-ass games have been.

Stop defending Matt Cassel. He is poisonous to this franchise.

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 03:59 PM
It was his first year starting and he threw 23 TD and 11 INT. 3400 yards.

That's not awesome but HE GOT BETTER. It certainly wasn't "pretty bad."

"Pretty bad" is what Cassel was last season, and what his last 11 shit-ass games have been.

Stop defending Matt Cassel. He is poisonous to this franchise.

LOL I'm not defending Cassel.

suds79
04-03-2012, 03:59 PM
Who gives a sh!t about comparing Cassel to Trent.

Trent was better but if you feel differently, whatever. Neither one of them were good enough to win a SB.

So what's the plan? To build the greatest offensive line ever again? We had that. Got beat by a franchise QB.

Moot point to be going on this far about how they stacked up.

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 04:07 PM
I think people underestimate just how good Green was here, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what people thinks about his play ten years ago. It's not relevant to today in any way. We can argue about it until we're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that we're still stuck with Matt Cassel. Who has yet to show that he can execute an offense at any kind of even halfway competent level. He's never shown that he can complete a high percentage of passes, he's never shown any ability to quickly and correctly read defenses, he's never shown that he can be the cog at the center of a productive passing offense. All he has ever shown, in a positive sense, is that he can avoid turning the ball over if the passing game is completely castrated and refuses to attack downfield, and that he can throw short touchdown passes if the running game can move the ball down the field for him.

That's all we've gotten out of him. After three years.

RealSNR
04-03-2012, 04:11 PM
"Trent Green had great passing numbers because his offenses didn't run the ball all that much." Yeah, right. They only had that shitty workhorse Priest Holmes, who took over all those goal line TDs that Cassel threw in 2010. Oh, and while he took all of those, Trent Green was throwing for 24+ TDs on his own.

Blick, you said yardage doesn't matter because it's not on the scoreboard at the end? You know what DOES matter? Winning. Fucking winning. That's what matters. You know how QBs get their teams to win games? They throw the ball. Yes, it's entirely advantageous to ride your 6.2/carry RB when he's running 6.2/carry. When he's not though, you better have something up your sleeve that involves more than a fucking checkdown.

There's a reason why yards/completion is a hallmark stat of the winning QBs in this league, and the fact that Cassel's number is so low compared to the rest of them proves why he sucks.

Go ahead and take your 27/7 stat. I'd rather have a QB who's only 16/12 on the year but at least puts up 300 yard games, finds open receivers downfield, and knows when to let his awesome running game do the scoring instead of himself.

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 04:13 PM
Who gives a sh!t about comparing Cassel to Trent.

Trent was better but if you feel differently, whatever. Neither one of them were good enough to win a SB.I would argue that there's a substantive difference between winning a superbowl and being good enough to win one. You could make the same statement about Dan Marino. Did he never win a superbowl because he wasn't good enough? I obviously would not put him on Marino's level, but Green was, I think, good enough to win a superbowl. He was not the weak link in that chain of fail.

But as I said a bit ago, it really doesn't matter. The issue here is Matt Cassel. And he's a far cry from even being Trent Green, much less Dan Marino.

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 04:17 PM
There is more overrating of Green than underrating.

He was a good QB with an All-World OL and a good RB and a great TE.

Without all that, he's very average.

That said, I really liked Green. He and his supporting cast was plenty good enough to win a SB back then.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 04:19 PM
He was a good QB with an All-World OL and a good RB and a great TE.


No, he was an above average QB.

In 2003 the Chiefs were only 15th in rushing. They were 2nd in passing.

Green was a fucking good QB and had it not been for GROB and DV's complete idiocy in the defensive department, we'd have won SOMETHING during his time here.

Blick
04-03-2012, 04:24 PM
You guys got me all wrong in this thread.

All I've said is that Cassel might have a good year with the rest of the team carrying him. That's not out of the question because of the talent we have.

THE PLAYERS HAVE TO CARRY HIM BECAUSE HE SUCKS! I DON'T LIKE HIM. I DON'T WANT HIM. READ WHAT I AM ACTUALLY SAYING, JFC.

Detoxing
04-03-2012, 04:26 PM
Cassel is a racist.

Chief Roundup
04-03-2012, 04:30 PM
You guys got me all wrong in this thread.

All I've said is that Cassel might have a good year with the rest of the team carrying him. That's not out of the question because of the talent we have.

THE PLAYERS HAVE TO CARRY HIM BECAUSE HE SUCKS! I DON'T LIKE HIM. I DON'T WANT HIM. READ WHAT I AM ACTUALLY SAYING, JFC.

You doing the moon walk with all the backing up?

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Unfortunately a 'good year' for Cassel is a sub-par year for basically any other quality starting QB. I would contend that 2010 is actually the best we're ever going to get out of him. That's his high water mark, as they say. And even that year was below average in every way aside from his TD/INT ratio. Which required an all time rushing performance and an offense focused solely on limiting his decisions and potentially-dangerous throws.

O.city
04-03-2012, 04:38 PM
For the CHiefs to be successful with Cassel next year, 2010 has to be his absolute floor. Thats the absolute worst he can do.


Maybe not TD to INT rate but in every other category, it is.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 04:38 PM
You guys got me all wrong in this thread.


No, we don't.

You're saying Cassel could produce like Trent Green.

THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 04:50 PM
A part of me, the naive part, still cant believe that Pioli is thumbing his nose at the fans by so blatantly sticking us with Cassel again.

I honestly thought we might just get some kind of change, or atleast some real competition going this year... thoughts like 'he's GOTTA see that this is the year to make a change, RIGHT?'

If he would only make the right moves at that one spot, i'd be completely happy with the overall direction of the Chiefs.

O.city
04-03-2012, 04:52 PM
So back to the oline.


I'm really starting to come around on Decastro. No matter who we pick at 11, they aren't likely to be the most dynamic playmaker.


Decastro is a great upgrade at RG or LG.

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 04:53 PM
Yeah, it's really bizarre. I think the team in a generally sense is in great shape, and I'd be extremely optimistic about the future. If they had a quarterback. It's mind-boggling.

munkey
04-03-2012, 05:01 PM
No, he was an above average QB.

In 2003 the Chiefs were only 15th in rushing. They were 2nd in passing.

Green was a ****ing good QB and had it not been for GROB and DV's complete idiocy in the defensive department, we'd have won SOMETHING during his time here.


This...

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 05:13 PM
So back to the oline.


I'm really starting to come around on Decastro. No matter who we pick at 11, they aren't likely to be the most dynamic playmaker.


Decastro is a great upgrade at RG or LG.

DeCastro is fantastic... BUT he is not a good value for us at all... Draft Molk in the 3rd or 4th and leave Hudson at Guard. There is no excuse for us to draft DeCastro, when a team like Dallas will be primed to trade down with. I LOVE DeCastro but I don't think it's the smart move for us.

prhom
04-03-2012, 05:21 PM
DeCastro is fantastic... BUT he is not a good value for us at all... Draft Molk in the 3rd or 4th and leave Hudson at Guard. There is no excuse for us to draft DeCastro, when a team like Dallas will be primed to trade down with. I LOVE DeCastro but I don't think it's the smart move for us.

Honest question here, but why would Dallas be willing to trade down? Who will be available at our spot that is going to attract that attention? Barron? Kirkpatrick? Kuechly?

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Honest question here, but why would Dallas be willing to trade down? Who will be available at our spot that is going to attract that attention? Barron? Kirkpatrick? Kuechly?

I have a strong feeling that Dallas wants DeCastro or even Richardson if he falls to #11... They could trade up 3 spots to get one of them and we could pick up a 3rd for it. (probably have to give them a 5th for value)

RealSNR
04-03-2012, 05:45 PM
You guys got me all wrong in this thread.

All I've said is that Cassel might have a good year with the rest of the team carrying him. That's not out of the question because of the talent we have.

THE PLAYERS HAVE TO CARRY HIM BECAUSE HE SUCKS! I DON'T LIKE HIM. I DON'T WANT HIM. READ WHAT I AM ACTUALLY SAYING, JFC.You said you'd be happy with 27/7 from Cassel in 2012. I'm saying the TD/INT ratio doesn't matter with a turd like Cassel. Unless he bumps up his yardage total and yards/completion, that stat might get him a Pro Bowl but it ain't going to get him a playoff win. Which is why I don't want 27/7.

I gave Cassel a put up or shut up season last year. He rewarded me with eggs laid against Buffalo, Detroit, Denver, Miami, and also cowardly games in victories over San Diego and Minnesota. He had ONE good game: Indy.

Cassel can take his 27/7 shit and go fuck himself.

Blick
04-03-2012, 05:48 PM
No, we don't.

You're saying Cassel could produce like Trent Green.

THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

TAMBA HALI WILL NEVER BE AN OLB

You never know.

O.city
04-03-2012, 06:02 PM
If Richardson falls to 11, we need to be running the card to Goodell. We could get Richardson and Molk, add a few accessory pieces and your offense is set for a while.


Set perfectly for a rookie qb to step in next year.

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 06:07 PM
If Richardson falls to 11, we need to be running the card to Goodell. We could get Richardson and Molk, add a few accessory pieces and your offense is set for a while.


Set perfectly for a rookie qb to step in next year.

I actually agree with this. I wouldn't trade down if we have a shot at Richardson UNLESS someone is willing to REALLY overpay us. If we take Richardson... we HAVE to get someone like Molk to shore up our interior so that we can take full advantage.

I would also look to take a TE and WR with some mid to late picks... let them have a year to develop and see what we have before we bring in our rookie QB and need to decide if we need any more pieces on offense to help him out.

Frazod
04-03-2012, 06:07 PM
I just wish we could pair up our 2003 offense with our 2012 defense. :(

O.city
04-03-2012, 06:09 PM
I actually agree with this. I wouldn't trade down if we have a shot at Richardson UNLESS someone is willing to REALLY overpay us. If we take Richardson... we HAVE to get someone like Molk to shore up our interior so that we can take full advantage.

I know that RB is a tough position to draft that early, but Richardson is potentially a top 3 player at his spot.


I'm liking Molk a ton from what I've read.


This draft is setting up really well for the Chiefs in taht they can start stock piling draft and getting great talent to sit behind guys incase someone wants to go all Carr and want huge money, money that we hopefully have to give to a franchise qb in a few eyars.

Hammock Parties
04-03-2012, 06:15 PM
TAMBA HALI WILL NEVER BE AN OLB

You never know.

No, because Hali didn't suck cock.

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 06:16 PM
I'm liking Molk a ton from what I've read.

yeah, he can be a bit mouthy at times... but otherwise the guy has all the tools and is a great fit for our offense. And he went to U-M and everyone knows that all U-M peeps are smarter, and far more handsome than the average person. Just look at this handsome devil!
(just a side note, the date on that pic is from when the pic was taken, not when the id was made... the id was from 1992)

Chief Roundup
04-03-2012, 06:18 PM
No, because Hali didn't suck cock.

Hmmm when I read that I thought you were one of those that were beating the drum that Hali could not make the conversion.

O.city
04-03-2012, 06:24 PM
yeah, he can be a bit mouthy at times... but otherwise the guy has all the tools and is a great fit for our offense. And he went to U-M and everyone knows that all U-M peeps are smarter, and far more handsome than the average person. Just look at this handsome devil!
(just a side note, the date on that pic is from when the pic was taken, not when the id was made... the id was from 1992)

Wouldn't mind at all him being a little mouthy, we need some nasty mfers on the oline.

Blick
04-03-2012, 06:56 PM
No, because Hali didn't suck cock.

And there is a chance that we have surrounded the cocksucker with so much talent, that he actually might step his game up.

That's all I'm saying. It's not Cassel being any good. It's about the talent around him being the best he's ever had.

Coogs
04-03-2012, 07:32 PM
And there is a chance that we have surrounded the cocksucker with so much talent, that he actually might step his game up.

That's all I'm saying. It's not Cassel being any good. It's about the talent around him being the best he's ever had.

Seriously, in a fair competition, I don't believe he can beat out Stanzi. And I believe Stanzi could do more in the regular season with this team. Even if his TD/INT ratio is about half and half.

Stanzi did things in his limited time in preseason games that we have never seen from Cassel... all with crap for an o-line.

I'm not going to comment on Quinn, because I have really never seen him play much in the NFL.

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Seriously, in a fair competition, I don't believe he can beat out Stanzi. And I believe Stanzi could do more in the regular season with this team. Even if his TD/INT ratio is about half and half.

Stanzi did things in his limited time in preseason games that we have never seen from Cassel... all with crap for an o-line.

I'm not going to comment on Quinn, because I have really never seen him play much in the NFL.

One great thing about Crennel... he has no problem playing different QBs... IF Stanzi can't beat out Cassel THIS YEAR.. then I seriously doubt Stanzi is as good as we thought he could be. I agree that he has probably not had anything close to a fair shot yet... but I truly think Crennel will give him that shot.

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 07:44 PM
If Stanzi can't beat out Cassel this year, then he's exactly as good as I thought he could be.

(Not that I think he should be judged on what he does or doesn't do this year)

O.city
04-03-2012, 07:51 PM
Sorry guys, but Stanzi isn't getting a chance this year.

Blick
04-03-2012, 07:53 PM
Seriously, in a fair competition, I don't believe he can beat out Stanzi. And I believe Stanzi could do more in the regular season with this team. Even if his TD/INT ratio is about half and half.

Stanzi did things in his limited time in preseason games that we have never seen from Cassel... all with crap for an o-line.

I'm not going to comment on Quinn, because I have really never seen him play much in the NFL.

I like Stanzi. I'd like to see him get a chance to compete. I don't think he will get that opportunity, though.

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 07:55 PM
Romeo will hand the reins over to someone besides Cassel, when Pioli damn well tells him to.

So yeah, its going to be Check Down in 2012... i truly believe Pioli is dead set on willing him into a winner.

O.city
04-03-2012, 07:55 PM
Only chance Stanzi gets a chance is if he either absolutely is perfect in the preseason/ offseason and someone gets injured.

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 07:58 PM
If Stanzi can't beat out Cassel this year, then he's exactly as good as I thought he could be.

(Not that I think he should be judged on what he does or doesn't do this year)

DUDE> My fellow U-M fan.. I feel slighted.. you didn't even comment on my U-M commentary below!

O.city
04-03-2012, 08:00 PM
Are there any other UM guys we should look at?

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 08:01 PM
DUDE> My fellow U-M fan.. I feel slighted.. you didn't even comment on my U-M commentary below!I try to avoid discussions about offensive linemen.

O.city
04-03-2012, 08:05 PM
I really like what I've seen from Molk. Could he be a day one starter at C? Can he make all the calls and such?

Coogs
04-03-2012, 08:06 PM
Only chance Stanzi gets a chance is if he either absolutely is perfect in the preseason/ offseason and someone gets injured.

I don't know where to find it, but somewhere there is an article with Pioli where he talks about Stanzi, and it sounded as if they were very happy with his progress this past year, and that he could be competition for Cassel.

I think the article was somewhere around the time of the combine.

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 08:23 PM
I try to avoid discussions about offensive linemen.

But what about the fact that U-M peeps are better looking and just generally superior? :)

AustinChief
04-03-2012, 08:23 PM
Are there any other UM guys we should look at?

Not really. Martin isnt a good fit

keg in kc
04-03-2012, 08:24 PM
But what about the fact that U-M peeps are better looking and just generally superior?Since I didn't go there, I would say patently false!

O.city
04-03-2012, 08:27 PM
Are you guys blatantly ignoring me?

Coogs
04-03-2012, 08:34 PM
Here is that bit on Stanzi from Poili...

“Last year, free-agency never started (until training camp),” Pioli said. “We had Matt on the roster. We had Tyler on the roster. We had Ricky, who we drafted. We didn’t draft someone high who was perceived as competition, but I’ll say this: I think Ricky is competition. Let’s not get lost in where a guy was drafted as to whether or not he’s a player. This league has shown time and time again at many positions, including this particular position, that where a player is drafted doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how good he is or how good he becomes.

“You just don’t wave a wand and magically say, ‘There’s competition.’ We drafted a quarterback last year who I truly believe has good ability and has the potential to start in this league. I really do believe that.”

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=256483&highlight=Pioli

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 08:49 PM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

No. No team is equipped enough to win with Cassel year in and year out. They might have a good enough team to hide his lack of talent and have an easy enough schedule to sneak into the playoffs but once you get there you will face teams with real defenses and real QB's. It just won't fly period. Every minute Cassel is a starter is a minute that is wasted of one of our good players careers.

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 08:51 PM
Win what? The division? One playoff game? A Superbowl?

I think Cassel, with the talent around him, can play like Trent Green. Green's QB ratings from 2002-2005 are 92.6, 92.6, 95.2, and 90.1. Cassel's QB rating in 2010 was 93.

It would be interesting to see how far QB play like that could take us with the defense that we have now.

Did you actually watch Trent Green? Because if you did you would know the only past Chiefs QB that Cassel compares too is a poor man's Bono.

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 08:56 PM
How can we "keep" Hudson at Center? The guy has never snapped the ball in the NFL nor did he ever start a game there in college.

He was a 3* recruit at Center in high school who blossomed into an All-American Guard in college. How many times do we have to watch the Chiefs switch players' positions around to disasterous results before we quit pining for a patchwork team?

Tamba Hali laughs at your statement and curses your mother in Liberian.

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Obviously we want a real QB, but to say you don't want or wouldn't take 27 TD's and 7 INT's is just dumb.

I would rather take 27 TD's and 14 interceptions with a QB that can actually move the ball unlike Cassel did that season with our 30th ranked passing offense.

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 09:03 PM
No. No team is equipped enough to win with Cassel year in and year out. They might have a good enough team to hide his lack of talent and have an easy enough schedule to sneak into the playoffs but once you get there you will face teams with real defenses and real QB's. It just won't fly period. Every minute Cassel is a starter is a minute that is wasted of one of our good players careers.

This, eight days a week, he gets completely exposed against the better defenses.

DB's have it made playing this guy, he takes half of the field away from himself... 'listen ya'll, dont bite on no fakes, this mfer aint shit outside twenty yards.'

O.city
04-03-2012, 09:04 PM
Sauls statement is absolutely right.


We need a C. Hudson was an all american Guard.


Draft a C.

prhom
04-03-2012, 09:12 PM
I have a strong feeling that Dallas wants DeCastro or even Richardson if he falls to #11... They could trade up 3 spots to get one of them and we could pick up a 3rd for it. (probably have to give them a 5th for value)

Hmm, I think I'd ask for more than their third and give up a fifth if it were Richardson. Otherwise I could get behind a trade like that. We could still add some talent three spots back and the third round seems to have some interesting options. If we could somehow pick up another second rounder I'd be ecstatic.

Chief Roundup
04-03-2012, 09:17 PM
We had Tyler on the roster.

Tyler may be a bad name for a QB...Tyler Thigpen, Tyler Palko. Just say no to Tyler. :D

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 09:24 PM
Cassel is a racist.

If by not looking at his 2nd option on a passing play you mean racist, then yes he is very racist.

Rausch
04-03-2012, 09:26 PM
Sauls statement is absolutely right.


We need a C. Hudson was an all american Guard.


Draft a C.

:spock:

Easy 6
04-03-2012, 09:35 PM
Did you actually watch Trent Green? Because if you did you would know the only past Chiefs QB that Cassel compares too is a poor man's Bono.

thats a pretty damn good comparison... while they're 'skill sets' were much different with Bono possibly being even more of a rag-arm & smaller, but with better run around ability... its still a PERFECT comparison in terms of what they accomplished.

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 09:40 PM
This, eight days a week, he gets completely exposed against the better defenses.

DB's have it made playing this guy, he takes half of the field away from himself... 'listen ya'll, dont bite on no fakes, this mfer aint shit outside twenty yards.'

And little does that DB know but he is giving Cassel 15 yards more credit than he deserves with his statement :)

Chief3188
04-03-2012, 09:47 PM
thats a pretty damn good comparison... while they're 'skill sets' were much different with Bono possibly being even more of a rag-arm & smaller, but with better run around ability... its still a PERFECT comparison in terms of what they accomplished.

The main comparison I had in mind with those 2 could is the fact that neither can win with a tough schedule despite a good defense, Oline and Rushing game.

Cassel's deceiving 2010 season was the same set of circumstances as Bono's mirage of a season in 95 and if I remember right I think Bono might have snuck into the pro bowl that year just like Casshole

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2012, 09:49 PM
How can we "keep" Hudson at Center? The guy has never snapped the ball in the NFL nor did he ever start a game there in college.

He was a 3* recruit at Center in high school who blossomed into an All-American Guard in college. How many times do we have to watch the Chiefs switch players' positions around to disasterous results before we quit pining for a patchwork team?

Well, Konz has never snapped a football in the NFL either. :)

ChiefGator
04-04-2012, 04:35 AM
Tamba Hali laughs at your statement and curses your mother in Liberian.

Liberia's official language is English, so not sure how scary that would be.

O.city
04-04-2012, 06:37 AM
Well, Konz has never snapped a football in the NFL either. :)

Konz doesn't fit our scheme at all.




Saul's right on this one. Why take a guy that was an all american for 2 years in college and move him because he "projects" to be good at one spot, moving him from a spot we already know what we have in him?



Now, I'm by no means saying he won't be a great center, I would just rather us draft a center and leave him at guard.

jspchief
04-04-2012, 07:02 AM
Liberia's official language is English, so not sure how scary that would be.Coming from an angry Hali? Pretty scary.

BigMeatballDave
04-04-2012, 08:14 AM
Konz doesn't fit our scheme at all.




Saul's right on this one. Why take a guy that was an all american for 2 years in college and move him because he "projects" to be good at one spot, moving him from a spot we already know what we have in him?



Now, I'm by no means saying he won't be a great center, I would just rather us draft a center and leave him at guard.LOL I was joking. I mentioned Konz because he's the top C in the draft.

I would prefer they draft a C, but I'm good with Hudson.

Blick
04-04-2012, 08:23 AM
No. No team is equipped enough to win with Cassel year in and year out. They might have a good enough team to hide his lack of talent and have an easy enough schedule to sneak into the playoffs but once you get there you will face teams with real defenses and real QB's. It just won't fly period. Every minute Cassel is a starter is a minute that is wasted of one of our good players careers.

That's what I've been saying the whole time. And don't get me wrong, that's not what you want out of your QB, but that's probably what we're going to have to roll with.

I'm tired of this "we're gonna face real defenses and real QB's" in the playoffs. No shit. But, it's a team game, and it's about match-ups. If our defense can frustrate the opposing QB and our offense can effectively hide Cassel, then we can win. ****ing Tebow won a playoff game last year against a real defense and a real QB. It's not the ideal scenario, but it's what you have to work with.

Did you actually watch Trent Green? Because if you did you would know the only past Chiefs QB that Cassel compares too is a poor man's Bono.

Trent was helped a lot by a very friendly QB system, a phenomenal offensive line, and the best receiving TE to ever play the game in his prime.

When he didn't have those things, he wasn't anything special. Look at his seasons in 1998 or 2001.

I know we're starving for a real QB, but JFC, the Bono comparison is beyond awful. Just look at his career numbers. They're a joke. When he was Cassel's age, he had 9 career starts under his belt. Cassel has 54.

I would rather take 27 TD's and 14 interceptions with a QB that can actually move the ball unlike Cassel did that season with our 30th ranked passing offense.

ME TOO!

Obviously we want a real QB

That was in the post that you ****ing quoted.

And I said I would take 27 TD's and 7 INT's...just the ratio by itself, from any QB. I didn't say I wanted Cassel's 2010 season and everything else with it.

WhiteWhale
04-04-2012, 09:53 AM
Win what? The division? One playoff game? A Superbowl?

I think Cassel, with the talent around him, can play like Trent Green. Green's QB ratings from 2002-2005 are 92.6, 92.6, 95.2, and 90.1. Cassel's QB rating in 2010 was 93.

It would be interesting to see how far QB play like that could take us with the defense that we have now.

QB rating is over-rated, and that's a great example of why. It tries to do too much with one number.

Trent Green could have piled up the TD's, but because we always seemed to have a running back who could get 20+ TD's when we needed it he didn't throw much in the RZ. His average yards per attempt were generally a full yard higher than Cassel. He threw for over 4,000 yards three years in a row and routinely attempted 500 or more passes in a season.

We didn't protect Green with playcalling... we protect the shit out of Cassel with playcalling. Also, I take umbrage to 'talent around him'. Cassel has talent around him, it's just not in the same places.

the Talking Can
04-04-2012, 09:59 AM
Green executed the most complicated passing offense in the nfl

Cassel can barely make one read in a remedial offense...Cassel couldn't execute Saunders offense

and it's a lot of fun to listen to a discussing about whether or not we can build an OL good enough to compensate for having a shitty QB...so much has changed since Pioli took over for Carl...amirite?

ChiefGator
04-04-2012, 10:02 AM
Green executed the most complicated passing offense in the nfl

Cassel can barely make one read in a remedial offense...Cassel couldn't execute Saunders offense


End thread right here..

Blick
04-04-2012, 11:27 AM
QB rating is over-rated, and that's a great example of why. It tries to do too much with one number.

Trent Green could have piled up the TD's, but because we always seemed to have a running back who could get 20+ TD's when we needed it he didn't throw much in the RZ. His average yards per attempt were generally a full yard higher than Cassel. He threw for over 4,000 yards three years in a row and routinely attempted 500 or more passes in a season.

We didn't protect Green with playcalling... we protect the shit out of Cassel with playcalling. Also, I take umbrage to 'talent around him'. Cassel has talent around him, it's just not in the same places.

I know the opinion on QB rating.

Green threw for 4000 yards three years in a row at the ages of 33, 34, and 35.

Before that, he was a lot like Cassel.

We didn't need to protect Green with playcalling with that offensive line. Green also had the luxury of having the same offensive coordinator every year, so Green knew that offense inside and out.

Green also had more talent around him, and it's not even close. 3 Hall of Famers.

When we were watching that team, did we really think Green was a great QB? He was closer to good than great.

I bet the opinions of outsiders on Green aren't nearly as glowing as Chiefs fans putting Green on a pedestal, fondly remembering the days when their starting QB didn't suck.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Green threw for 4000 yards three years in a row at the ages of 33, 34, and 35.

Before that, he was a lot like Cassel.


No, he wasn't.

He was a very accurate passer in St. Louis. He threw for 8.6 yards per attempt, 13 YEARS AGO.

Cassel will never even come close to 8 yards per attempt in a season.

Stop making this stupid fucking comparison.

Chief Roundup
04-04-2012, 11:33 AM
Green executed the most complicated passing offense in the nfl

Cassel can barely make one read in a remedial offense...Cassel couldn't execute Saunders offense

This is spot on. I might also add that in Saunders offense it took longer for routes to develop. When it takes longer for things to develop you have to give your QB that extra time.

Blick
04-04-2012, 11:39 AM
Green executed the most complicated passing offense in the nfl

The most complicated part of that offense was all the shifting and motion pre-snap. When the defense reacted, that made it EASIER for the QB to read what the defense was doing. It was very QB friendly.

Cassel can barely make one read in a remedial offense...

Exaggeration.

Blick
04-04-2012, 11:42 AM
No, he wasn't.

He was a very accurate passer in St. Louis. He threw for 8.6 yards per attempt, 13 YEARS AGO.

Cassel will never even come close to 8 yards per attempt in a season.

Stop making this stupid ****ing comparison.

LOL.

LOOK AT WHAT HE DID IN 5 STARTS IN 2000!

Edit: Cassel had 5 starts in 2010 where he had over 8 yards per attempt.

And Cassel sucks. The point is, using 5 starts to make your argument is a ****ing joke.

Look at the game logs for Green in that 2000 year (nice math btw, 13 years ago?).

He had an 18.75 ypa skewing the shit out of those numbers because he went 3-4 for 75 yards and a TD in one game.

the Talking Can
04-04-2012, 12:05 PM
The most complicated part of that offense was all the shifting and motion pre-snap. When the defense reacted, that made it EASIER for the QB to read what the defense was doing. It was very QB friendly.



Exaggeration.

wrong...Saunders offense was calculus compared to the simple addition Cassel is asked to master...every route in the offense had multiple options based on multiple defensive looks....every player on offense had to be drilled in all possible options, the OL took exams over the playbook before games it was so complicated

the routes were deeper and slower developing, and it all hinged on Green accurately diagnosing the correct defense and knowing which version of which route of which WR - across the entire field - was most likely to get open...

Cassel isn't asked to do anything but find his first read, and he's frequently given half a field to work with...

you're wrong

Blick
04-04-2012, 12:17 PM
wrong...Saunders offense was calculus compared to the simple addition Cassel is asked to master...every route in the offense had multiple options based on multiple defensive looks....every player on offense had to be drilled in all possible options, the OL took exams over the playbook before games it was so complicated

the routes were deeper and slower developing, and it all hinged on Green accurately diagnosing the correct defense and knowing which version of which route of which WR - across the entire field - was most likely to get open...

Cassel isn't asked to do anything but find his first read, and he's frequently given half a field to work with...

you're wrong

What does the OL taking exams have to do with Green?

Option routes are in every offense.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 12:20 PM
Shut the fuck up Blick.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 12:21 PM
And Cassel sucks. The point is, using 5 starts to make your argument is a ****ing joke.
.

Green played in 8 games that year and threw 240 passes.

You're being obtuse, you idiot fucking homer.

Blick
04-04-2012, 12:22 PM
Nice rebuttal.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 12:24 PM
Just the facts, you idiot. 240 fucking passes thrown at 8.6 YPA proves my position pretty fucking well.

Enjoy Cassel's dick.

whoman69
04-04-2012, 12:25 PM
I know the opinion on QB rating.

Green threw for 4000 yards three years in a row at the ages of 33, 34, and 35.

Before that, he was a lot like Cassel.

We didn't need to protect Green with playcalling with that offensive line. Green also had the luxury of having the same offensive coordinator every year, so Green knew that offense inside and out.

Green also had more talent around him, and it's not even close. 3 Hall of Famers.

When we were watching that team, did we really think Green was a great QB? He was closer to good than great.

I bet the opinions of outsiders on Green aren't nearly as glowing as Chiefs fans putting Green on a pedestal, fondly remembering the days when their starting QB didn't suck.

Cassel makes other players look ordinary. Cassel has talent around him. Green made the talent around him better. Stop all the excuses for Cassel.

Sofa King
04-04-2012, 12:29 PM
Wow. This is a beatdown.

keg in kc
04-04-2012, 12:30 PM
Why are you people using yards/attempt in a discussion about accuracy?

Although Cassel is below marginal in both categories.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 12:32 PM
Why are you people using yards/attempt in a discussion about accuracy?

Although Cassel is below marginal in both categories.

We're not. This isn't a discussion about accuracy. It's a discussion about who can actually play QB.

BigMeatballDave
04-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Cassel makes other players look ordinary. Cassel has talent around him. Green made the talent around him better. Stop all the excuses for Cassel.

LOL Green did NOT make the talent around him better. It was the other way. Green was an above average QB with a very good supporting cast.

I don't care how much talent you place around Cassel, he's still gonna struggle.

the Talking Can
04-04-2012, 12:58 PM
What does the OL taking exams have to do with Green?

Option routes are in every offense.

are you retarded?

xztop12
04-04-2012, 01:13 PM
wrong...Saunders offense was calculus compared to the simple addition Cassel is asked to master...every route in the offense had multiple options based on multiple defensive looks....every player on offense had to be drilled in all possible options, the OL took exams over the playbook before games it was so complicated

the routes were deeper and slower developing, and it all hinged on Green accurately diagnosing the correct defense and knowing which version of which route of which WR - across the entire field - was most likely to get open...

Cassel isn't asked to do anything but find his first read, and he's frequently given half a field to work with...

you're wrong


This post doesn't even make sense. You're telling me if I give a QB one WR on every play and just let him stare down that guy, that this is a simpler offense that I should expect more success from?

xztop12
04-04-2012, 01:24 PM
You're using his success as a meter of how well he can comprehend the simple offense. Since you have no other basis for evaluating his comprehension of the offense

Sofa King
04-04-2012, 01:24 PM
This post doesn't even make sense. You're telling me if I give a QB one WR on every play and just let him stare down that guy, that this is a simpler offense that I should expect more success from?

:spock:

:facepalm:

the Talking Can
04-04-2012, 01:29 PM
This post doesn't even make sense. You're telling me if I give a QB one WR on every play and just let him stare down that guy, that this is a simpler offense that I should expect more success from?

are you retarded?

whoman69
04-04-2012, 02:43 PM
You're using his success as a meter of how well he can comprehend the simple offense. Since you have no other basis for evaluating his comprehension of the offense

Asking Matt Cassel to do more in an offense when he can't run the simple offense he is given is not really the way to go here. He can't get past his first progression. He can't move his protections. He can't get the ball downfield. The offense was built to suit Cassel. Giving him more responsibilities in the offense when he can't handle the ones he has now is like asking a driver's ed class to take a few laps at Indy.

Bewbies
04-04-2012, 03:00 PM
Matt Cassel couldn't run the "you go deep, you go to the mailbox and turn left" offense we run in our backyards.

LMAO thinking he could even make it to the snap correctly in the Saunders offense is hilarious.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 03:03 PM
Just fucking watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

keg in kc
04-04-2012, 03:11 PM
Asking Matt Cassel to do more in an offense when he can't run the simple offense he is given is not really the way to go here. He can't get past his first progression. He can't move his protections. He can't get the ball downfield. The offense was built to suit Cassel. Giving him more responsibilities in the offense when he can't handle the ones he has now is like asking a driver's ed class to take a few laps at Indy.A driver's ed class with deaf mute blind students.

suzzer99
04-04-2012, 03:36 PM
Just ****ing watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is clearly some kind of CGI magic. There's no way it's possible to avoid a pass rush and complete a pass downfield on the same play.

suds79
04-04-2012, 03:38 PM
How is this thread still going being focused on Green vs Cassel???

Let me get this straight. 95% of us all believe Green to be the far superior QB. And as far as I can tell, there's 1 person saying they're roughly the same? Is that right? Is that what's carrying this debate several, several pages deep?

suzzer99
04-04-2012, 03:55 PM
Are you new to the internet?

prhom
04-04-2012, 05:16 PM
Just ****ing watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm trying to remember the last time Cassel actually hit a receiver in stride on a deep go-route. Holy shit that was fun to watch.

We definitely got spoiled having an offense like that.

lcarus
04-04-2012, 05:20 PM
This is where drafting someone like OG David DeCastro at #11 make the Chiefs have arguably the best OL in all of football (or at least on their way to having the best once were a little more seasoned).

We're gonna have a really good o-line. It's a shame we don't have a QB worth a shit.

lcarus
04-04-2012, 05:22 PM
How is this thread still going being focused on Green vs Cassel???

Let me get this straight. 95% of us all believe Green to be the far superior QB. And as far as I can tell, there's 1 person saying they're roughly the same? Is that right? Is that what's carrying this debate several, several pages deep?

Apparently.

I don't know how anyone could say Cassel is as good as Green was. Trent Green is fucking Johnny U compared to Matt Cassel.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 05:28 PM
Apparently.

I don't know how anyone could say Cassel is as good as Green was. Trent Green is fucking Johnny U compared to Matt Cassel.

No no no! You misunderstand Blick The Ultimate Homer. He's saying Cassel COULD BE as good as Green is. All he needed was a RT and he's going to throw for 4,000 yards!

lcarus
04-04-2012, 05:31 PM
No no no! You misunderstand Blick The Ultimate Homer. He's saying Cassel COULD BE as good as Green is. All he needed was a RT and he's going to throw for 4,000 yards!

Haha. Of course, how could I not see it. Well, Cassel has his RT now, not to mention much much better outside receivers. We shall see what happens.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 05:35 PM
Haha. Of course, how could I not see it. Well, Cassel has his RT now, not to mention much much better outside receivers. We shall see what happens.

Remember when he got two new wide receivers last season?

And his stats took a nosedive?

Clearly this is a QB who just needed elite talent around him.

kcxiv
04-04-2012, 05:41 PM
Cassel is not accurate. Trent didnt have the most powerful arm, it was probably average, but he was pretty freaking accurate. He throw some bad passes at times, but he was not great, but damned good with a shitty WR core. To bad we couldnt have prime trent with this offense and defense :( instead we got Mark Castle.

Dave Lane
04-04-2012, 05:44 PM
Just ****ing watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This maybe the dumbest discussion I've ever seen.

lcarus
04-04-2012, 05:57 PM
Remember when he got two new wide receivers last season?

And his stats took a nosedive?

Clearly this is a QB who just needed elite talent around him.

Yep, the only reason he did ok in 2010 was because of Charlie Weis and a soft ass schedule. We've seen plenty of how he plays against good opponents without a genius o-coordinator. SHIT.

RealSNR
04-04-2012, 06:16 PM
A driver's ed class with deaf mute blind students.What do the students being mute have to do with anything? /Blick

WhiteWhale
04-04-2012, 06:56 PM
I know the opinion on QB rating.

I don't. I only know my opinion on QB rating.

Green threw for 4000 yards three years in a row at the ages of 33, 34, and 35.

Yeah. It was a good run. Talk about TG all you want, but TG didn't even contribute what Wes Welker does in New England. Perhaps the best TE of all time (not in my opinion) but he's still a tight end. We didn't have downfield play makers at all, though the OL made up for it. You can't even compare our current WR group with the unit Green threw too. They're way more talented.

Before that, he was a lot like Cassel.

In what way? I"d argue that Cassel performed pretty average with the talent he had at New England. Trent Green was outstanding when he stepped in for Warner in 2000. That team was loaded, but it is what it is. So were the pats.

We didn't need to protect Green with playcalling with that offensive line. Green also had the luxury of having the same offensive coordinator every year, so Green knew that offense inside and out.

First of all we've run the same system this whole time. Yeah, the OC's have changed. Same system. Same terminology. At least one OC we had didn't think much of Cassel. Green, on the other hand was brought to the Rams at the request of a newly hired OC (Martz) and later brought to the Chiefs by their new HC/OC. Maybe McD loved him, but Weis sure didn't from all accounts.

Green also had more talent around him, and it's not even close. 3 Hall of Famers.

Yup. Though that's an oversimplification, it is entirely true. Our WR group was garbage. Eddie Kennison was the only WR we had during that time that I didn't hate... and he was always dropping easy passes. TE's are nice, but they simply don't give you the type of production that a good group of WR's can give you. We had strengths, but that WR group was always the obvious glaring weakness in an otherwise over powering offense and it made it difficult to play catch up when we needed big plays. That was a problem since it didn't mesh well with our "Allow as many big plays as possible" defensive philosophy. :D

When we were watching that team, did we really think Green was a great QB? He was closer to good than great.

Green was the right QB in the right system.. a system that emphasized intelligence and accuracy. Green's accuracy was at it's best on moderate crossing routes, and that's what our offense was built to do. He had good ball placement and excellent anticipation. Green wasn't a great QB, largely because he could be TOO aggressive and lacked the kind of arm strength you really desire in QB. I mean Cassel has a cannon compared to Trent Green. I view Green much the same way I view Rich Gannon.

I don't think that highly of Cassel. He has traits I dislike in QB's. The first is timidity with the ball. You can accuse Green of many things, but timidity is not one of them. Green would force things to make a play... whereas Cassel will just complete 4 yard passes on 3rd and 7 when we're down by 20. Great QB's are going to go down swinging... this is why great QB's tend to throw lots of INT's when their teams are struggling. The second trait is his poor accuracy on moderate routes (15-20 yards). Green was great at this, and Cassel struggles a lot with it.

Another issue I have with Cassel is that he has poor accuracy/ball placement on most passes. Green was immobile and weak armed. He was, by NFL standards, a bad athlete. Cassel's arm strength isn't as bad as people around here act like it is, but his accuracy is shit when he has to throw moderate/deep. Even when he has a 93 rating these things are still there.

I believe Green had the skills and mentality of an elite QB, but not the body of one.

I bet the opinions of outsiders on Green aren't nearly as glowing as Chiefs fans putting Green on a pedestal, fondly remembering the days when their starting QB didn't suck.

Chiefs fans are homers for Green. I know what he was... a flawed over-achiever. Cassel's ceiling, based on athletic ability, should be considerably higher than Green's.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 06:58 PM
I mean Cassel has a cannon compared to Trent Green.

LMAO

You fucking idiot. Green didn't have to go through an enormous baseball-style windup every time he threw the ball. If his feet were set he could flick his wrist and put zip on the ball.

Cassel does not have a cannon compared to anyone.

BossChief
04-04-2012, 07:01 PM
Palko

WhiteWhale
04-04-2012, 07:04 PM
LMAO

You ****ing idiot. Green didn't have to go through an enormous baseball-style windup every time he threw the ball. If his feet were set he could flick his wrist and put zip on the ball.

Cassel does not have a cannon compared to anyone.

Green's passes floated in the air for a ****ing eternity... zip my ass. He could barely throw to the sidelines and you pretty much never saw a ball travel over 40 yards in the air. Great anticipation and accuracy made up for this, but he did not have 'zip'.

His mechanics were far superior, so yeah, his release was far more compact.

Palko

I can piss farther than Palko can throw.

BigMeatballDave
04-04-2012, 07:06 PM
LMAO Cannon and Cassel should never be used in sentense together unless you intend to shoot Cassel with a cannon.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 07:08 PM
Green's passes floated in the air for a fucking eternity... zip my ass.


You're an idiot. This is a 35-37 yard throw when you account for the angle. Does it look like it's floating?

http://i43.tinypic.com/1052zip.jpg

WhiteWhale
04-04-2012, 07:19 PM
You're an idiot. This is a 35-37 yard throw when you account for the angle. Does it look like it's floating?

http://i43.tinypic.com/1052zip.jpg

It's a great throw in a muddled pocket. The impressive thing is the accuracy.

I wouldn't call it a floater, but It's not exactly screaming either. Though he did throw well over 3000 passes you didn't show also.

Anyway, nice job cherry picking a hyperbolic comment. You should go into politics.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Green's passes didn't "float" if his feet were set, sorry.

He had a good, solid NFL arm, above average, and that gif is proof.

Cassel has an average arm and terrible accuracy.

WhiteWhale
04-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Green's passes didn't "float" if his feet were set, sorry.

He had a good, solid NFL arm, above average, and that gif is proof.

Cassel has an average arm and terrible accuracy.

Most QB's can fire that pass with that kind of velocity... but most can't throw it accurately.

Green had great control throwing down the field. He could fire it full power and hit a target. If Cassel fires full power he overthrows a 6-5 WR by 8 yards. Terrible accuracy indeed, and average arm strength indeed.

beach tribe
04-04-2012, 07:36 PM
Just ****ing watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Damn he looks good. We would be immediate SB contenders if we still had Green. He really was a damn good QB.

beach tribe
04-04-2012, 07:37 PM
Green's passes floated in the air for a ****ing eternity... zip my ass. He could barely throw to the sidelines and you pretty much never saw a ball travel over 40 yards in the air. Great anticipation and accuracy made up for this, but he did not have 'zip'.

His mechanics were far superior, so yeah, his release was far more compact.



I can piss farther than Palko can throw.

Green's passes had a ton of Zip on them.

beach tribe
04-04-2012, 07:45 PM
I don't. I only know my opinion on QB rating.



Yeah. It was a good run. Talk about TG all you want, but TG didn't even contribute what Wes Welker does in New England. Perhaps the best TE of all time (not in my opinion) but he's still a tight end. We didn't have downfield play makers at all, though the OL made up for it. You can't even compare our current WR group with the unit Green threw too. They're way more talented.



In what way? I"d argue that Cassel performed pretty average with the talent he had at New England. Trent Green was outstanding when he stepped in for Warner in 2000. That team was loaded, but it is what it is. So were the pats.



First of all we've run the same system this whole time. Yeah, the OC's have changed. Same system. Same terminology. At least one OC we had didn't think much of Cassel. Green, on the other hand was brought to the Rams at the request of a newly hired OC (Martz) and later brought to the Chiefs by their new HC/OC. Maybe McD loved him, but Weis sure didn't from all accounts.



Yup. Though that's an oversimplification, it is entirely true. Our WR group was garbage. Eddie Kennison was the only WR we had during that time that I didn't hate... and he was always dropping easy passes. TE's are nice, but they simply don't give you the type of production that a good group of WR's can give you. We had strengths, but that WR group was always the obvious glaring weakness in an otherwise over powering offense and it made it difficult to play catch up when we needed big plays. That was a problem since it didn't mesh well with our "Allow as many big plays as possible" defensive philosophy. :D



Green was the right QB in the right system.. a system that emphasized intelligence and accuracy. Green's accuracy was at it's best on moderate crossing routes, and that's what our offense was built to do. He had good ball placement and excellent anticipation. Green wasn't a great QB, largely because he could be TOO aggressive and lacked the kind of arm strength you really desire in QB. I mean Cassel has a cannon compared to Trent Green. I view Green much the same way I view Rich Gannon.

I don't think that highly of Cassel. He has traits I dislike in QB's. The first is timidity with the ball. You can accuse Green of many things, but timidity is not one of them. Green would force things to make a play... whereas Cassel will just complete 4 yard passes on 3rd and 7 when we're down by 20. Great QB's are going to go down swinging... this is why great QB's tend to throw lots of INT's when their teams are struggling. The second trait is his poor accuracy on moderate routes (15-20 yards). Green was great at this, and Cassel struggles a lot with it.

Another issue I have with Cassel is that he has poor accuracy/ball placement on most passes. Green was immobile and weak armed. He was, by NFL standards, a bad athlete. Cassel's arm strength isn't as bad as people around here act like it is, but his accuracy is shit when he has to throw moderate/deep. Even when he has a 93 rating these things are still there.

I believe Green had the skills and mentality of an elite QB, but not the body of one.



Chiefs fans are homers for Green. I know what he was... a flawed over-achiever. Cassel's ceiling, based on athletic ability, should be considerably higher than Green's.

I completely disagree with this account of Green. He could make all the throws and had plenty of arm strength.
The pass @ 1:42 travels 40 yards through he air and was dead on target.

RealSNR
04-04-2012, 07:47 PM
I think people say Green didn't put zip on the ball because he was a gimp QB. A tough as fucking nails QB whose string of consecutive starts among active QBs was only outmatched by Favre and Peyton Manning. But still, a gimp QB who was slow moving.

That is CLEARLY not the case at all. It's a giant misconception that just because he had wobbly legs he also had a wobbly arm.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 07:49 PM
I think people say Green didn't put zip on the ball because he was a gimp QB. A tough as fucking nails QB whose string of consecutive starts among active QBs was only outmatched by Favre and Peyton Manning. But still, a gimp QB who was slow moving.

That is CLEARLY not the case at all. It's a giant misconception that just because he had wobbly legs he also had a wobbly arm.

Green was 6-3, 210, so of course people think he has a weaker arm than 6-5, 240 Matt Cassel.

Fucking idiots.

durtyrute
04-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Just fucking watch this and compare it to Matt Cassel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G42tL7D509s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Damn, I miss that!!!

beach tribe
04-04-2012, 08:03 PM
Green was 6-3, 210, so of course people think he has a weaker arm than 6-5, 240 Matt Cassel.

****ing idiots.

There's no comparison in the two. Green's delivery was faster more compact more fundamentally sound and was in a whole other world as cassel in terms of accuracy. Green really doesn't get the rspect he deserves. He had a great line that helped him, but his pocket presence was also on an entirely different plane than Cassel. Green was just simply a top 5 QB in this league when he was in his prime. Had he had better receivers, and a defense that could stop ANYONE I believe he could have scratched at 5000 yards. he put up 4500+, and that was with seriously weak WRs.
I would love to see what he could do with the saints group of playmakers. I think he compares to Brees better than anyone.

beach tribe
04-04-2012, 08:05 PM
Damn, I miss that!!!

For real. He would be just nasty with this team.

keg in kc
04-04-2012, 08:11 PM
QB is about a hell of a lot more than 'athletic ability'. And Cassel has shown absolutely zero of the attributes required to excel at the position. He works hard and he's a nice guy, but he just doesn't have it on the field.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 08:11 PM
If only Green had had Tyler Palko's athletic ability.

Easy 6
04-04-2012, 08:35 PM
The Trent Green highlights left a wet spot in my pants, ****in ay, in his prime, that guy was a machine.

O.city
04-04-2012, 09:41 PM
I actually forgot how good Green was, until I watched that video.


Makes me wish more and more we would have resigned Orton. I think he compared to Green in alot of ways.

BigMeatballDave
04-04-2012, 09:59 PM
Matt Cassel is so bad he makes above average QBs looks elite.

Dmello12
04-04-2012, 10:36 PM
who cares about athletic ability i just want a guy who can sling the ball around. Wish we would have taken Mallet last year

Chiefshrink
04-04-2012, 11:40 PM
If this line would suddenly become a shadow of that 2003-2005 team, is that good enough to win even WITH Cassel? And yes, that's a sincere question.

Probably good enough to win the division and maybe 1 game in the playoffs.

Hammock Parties
04-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Probably good enough to win the division and maybe 1 game in the playoffs.

How often does the team with the worst quarterback in the division WIN the division? :hmmm:

Chiefshrink
04-04-2012, 11:42 PM
You can only really imagine where the Chiefs might be if they hadn’t made the hasty decision of cutting Jared Gaither during the middle of the year.

Why did Gaither get cut?

Chiefshrink
04-04-2012, 11:47 PM
How often does the team with the worst quarterback in the division WIN the division? :hmmm:

I get your point. And by no means do I want Cassel as my starter. I want him gone. But with better protection and better run blocking and an even more improved D that will have more ability to score and give us a shorter field on turnovers, Cassel will have less opportunities to f up.

htismaqe
04-05-2012, 06:56 AM
who cares about athletic ability i just want a guy who can sling the ball around. Wish we would have taken Mallet last year

I'd rather have Tannehill than Mallett.

Chiefnj2
04-05-2012, 07:12 AM
Holy cow! You mean the Chiefs are allowed to score 14 points by the 2nd quarter of a game? I forgot all about running up the score like that until I saw those Green highlights.

Chief3188
04-25-2012, 08:42 PM
Liberia's official language is English, so not sure how scary that would be.

lol

Chief3188
04-25-2012, 08:46 PM
That's what I've been saying the whole time. And don't get me wrong, that's not what you want out of your QB, but that's probably what we're going to have to roll with.

I'm tired of this "we're gonna face real defenses and real QB's" in the playoffs. No shit. But, it's a team game, and it's about match-ups. If our defense can frustrate the opposing QB and our offense can effectively hide Cassel, then we can win. ****ing Tebow won a playoff game last year against a real defense and a real QB. It's not the ideal scenario, but it's what you have to work with.



Tebow won a playoff game against a real defense that had it's entire starting DLine out due to injury, half of it's Oline decimated by injury and their real QB was hobbled with a ridiculous injury himself. Sure maybe if we draw that lucky card we can win one with cassel. I will let you have that.