Lifetime Ban?

[nychief]

Lifetime ban?


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7778005/gregg-williams-told-new-orleans-saints-hurt-san-francisco-49ers-speech

According to Pamphilon, Gregg Williams pointed to his chin while telling his players to hit Niners quarterback Alex Smith "right there" and says "Remember me. I got the first one. I got the first one. Go get it. Go lay that m----------- out."

Williams uses one of his favorite slogans in the speech: "Kill the head and the body will die."

On Gore: "We've got to do everything in the world to make sure we kill Frank Gore's head. We want him running sideways. We want his head sideways."

On fullback Kendall Hunter: "Little 32, we're going to knock the f--- out of him."

On Smith: "Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early, affect the head. Continue, touch and hit the head."

“
We've got to do everything in the world to make sure we kill Frank Gore's head. We want him running sideways. We want his head sideways.

”-- Gregg Williams, on Frank Gore in speech to Saints players before playoff game
On Kyle Williams: "We need to find out in the first two series of the game, that little wide receiver, No. 10, about his concussion. We need to f------ put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to f------ decide."

On Crabtree: "We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be a fake-ass prima donna, or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find out. He becomes human when we f------ take out that outside ACL."

On Davis: "We need to decide how many times we can bull rush and and we can f------ put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile."

[listopencil]

Well...that's shitty.

[L.A. Chieffan]

gregg williams is a blowhard like 80% of DCs.

this stuff is cute when gunther is spewing it, amirite?

[mr. tegu]

It strikes me as even worse since the speech was done the night before and not during the heat of the moments in the game.

[Deberg_1990]

If Roger Goodell is talking about changing the culture of the league, he should start with some NFL Network programming. Last Monday afternoon, a few hours after Goodell addressed owners for the first time since the Saints bounty scandal broke, the in-room TVs in The Breakers, a resort where the annual meetings were being held, aired something curious. On NFL Network, The Top 10 Most Feared Tacklers was on the TV in the 5 p.m. hour.

Number five on the list was a linebacker from the '50s, Hardy Brown, who played the prime of his career with the 49ers. A thin, 6-foot Texan, Brown perfected nailing blockers and ballcarriers in the open field with shoulder shots, knocking out more than his share in a 10-season career. Brown was shown making several brutal shots -- legal, but brutal -- and then he appeared on camera. Very matter-of-factly in the NFL Network piece (produced by NFL Films), he talked about the Rams putting a $500 bounty on him.

"The Rams had a $500 deal for my getting knocked out of the game,'' said Brown, who was not specific about which year it was. "The guy that told me was [Rams back] Paul Barry. I said, 'Paul, hit me and I'll fake it, and we'll split it, $250 apiece.' '' The segment wasn't quite glorifying the bounty aspect. But Brown told the story with a bit of a smirk, as though he was reveling in it.

On the first full day of the league meetings in which the shadow of the Saints bounty scandal touched everything -- and a day after league counsel Jeff Pash reiterated to me that Goodell was out to change the part of the culture of the league that reveled in violent and gratuitous hits -- NFL Network had a four-minute chunk of a program painting a player as proud that he was deserving of the other team putting a bounty on him, and matter-of-factly discussing it in an interview with the NFL's house filmmaker. If I'm the Saints, I'm searching YouTube today for the Brown segment, and I'm showing it when I appeal the league's sanctions. Wait -- I found it.



http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/peter_king/04/01/bounty/index.html

[chasedude]

This is going to far. Goodell is worring too much about the dozens of ex players suing the league, trying to play the tough guy.

[htismaqe]

This is going to far. Goodell is worring too much about the dozens of ex players suing the league, trying to play the tough guy.

The players need to get their shit together as well. The guys on 810 brought it up this morning - it's VERY hypocritical for active and former players to go on TV and radio and say "it's no big deal, everybody is doing it" and then turn around and sue the league because their 45-year old body is broken.

[Fritz88]

Too bad the 9ers owned him.

They were more physical than the Saints and didn't have to employ [as far as I know] that dirtbag's tactics.

[Hammock Parties]

Hot.

[Brock]

This guy's the sacrificial lamb.

[BoneKrusher]

http://www.kontrolfreek.com/itemimages/blog/banhammer.jpg

[Saulbadguy]

Never apologize for the way you compete.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

"Kill the QB"/Gun

[vailpass]

God I hope they don't ruin the NFL.

[Brock]

Guys, go out there and tackle them, but not too hard.

[MMXcalibur]

Let's go out there and GIVE 'EM HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....if you feel like it!!!!!!

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Participation ribbons for all!!

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Guys, go out there and tackle them, but not too hard.

There's a difference between telling them to play hard and telling them to go after ACLs and heads and knees. This guy is an asshole and deserves any ban he gets.

[Dr. Gigglepants]

There's a difference between telling them to play hard and telling them to go after ACLs and heads and knees. This guy is an asshole and deserves any ban he gets.

Yep, with everything that's come out in the past few years, the NFL can't have a coach saying this. He's done, and so is anyone else caught saying this. This is definitely going to be used in a courtroom against the NFL. Would anyone else in any other profession get to keep their job after such a potentially costly mistake?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

There's a difference between telling them to play hard and telling them to go after ACLs and heads and knees. This guy is an asshole and deserves any ban he gets.

It's a little hypocritical to pretend that this hasn't been going on for decades, and to single a guy out when it's clearly going on everywhere. Gunther was everybody's hero around here and we know he was doing the same damn thing.

[Dr. Gigglepants]

It's a little hypocritical to pretend that this hasn't been going on for decades, and to single a guy out when it's clearly going on everywhere. Gunther was everybody's hero around here and we know he was doing the same damn thing.

Who else is on camera saying these damning things? Who else should they single out? Of course the NFL appears hypocritical, the violence is what sells their product and they know that, but you can't have coaches advocating illegal hits with the intent to injure. He's gone.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

Who else is on camera saying these damning things? Who else should they single out? Of course the NFL appears hypocritical, the violence is what sells their product and they know that, but you can't have coaches advocating illegal hits with the intent to injure. He's gone.
Posted via Mobile Device

So what he did wrong was be taped saying these things that everybody else says too. Thanks for proving my point.

[Dr. Gigglepants]

Lol
Posted via Mobile Device

[lcarus]

So what he did wrong was be taped saying these things that everybody else says too. Thanks for proving my point.

Yeah he got caught doing it. That's the difference. Nobody is saying it's ok for some and not for others. The point is, they got caught red-fucking-handed and even continued after being warned by the commissioner of the league. Maybe more stuff will come out on other teams. For now we don't know. I can't see Romeo Crennel telling his players to take out ACLs and "kill heads", but I don't know that for certain.

[Swanman]

Obviously the league is going to hit him hard for stuff where he encouraged hits to the head. Where he REALLY went over the line for me was encouraging his players to hit heads while in the pile, while the play is basically over.

[GreenMachine]

audio leaked

http://www.staged.com/video?v=358b

[Titty Meat]

audio leaked

http://www.staged.com/video?v=358b

Yeah it wasn't posted in the OP.

[DeezNutz]

Roger Goodell is a clown and a hypocrite. Go play Harvey Dent elsewhere, brah.

[Demonpenz]

Roger Godell's version of "the program" comes out today, I can't wait until Latter finds out who made the team and Takes Cain and Alvin Mack out for Ice Cream!

[whoman69]

I have no problem with a coach telling his players to go out there and hit hard, but when you get into specifics like "take his acl out" or "hit him right there on the chin" to give the guy a concussion, you've gone too far. You're talking about not only taking the guy out of the game, but potentially ending their season. It has no place in the game.

[lcarus]

Roger Goodell is a clown and a hypocrite. Go play Harvey Dent elsewhere, brah.

Ha, he somewhat resembles Harvey Dent from The Dark Knight in a way. Let's just hope his nickname in college wasn't Two-Face. He'll be flippin coins to see who gets punished.

[kysirsoze]

I have no problem with a coach telling his players to go out there and hit hard, but when you get into specifics like "take his acl out" or "hit him right there on the chin" to give the guy a concussion, you've gone too far. You're talking about not only taking the guy out of the game, but potentially ending their season. It has no place in the game.

I can't believe this is so hard for people to understand. Even players that I've heard say this sort of thing goes on elsewhere admit not to the extent that the Saints did it and not with as much support from the organization as a whole. The Saints were warned and they continued to behave this way. They put it in writing and no even allowed themselves to be taped supporting this program. They were not only operating an illegal system that broke NFL rules. They were documenting it. They deserve what they get.

[Jewish Rabbi]

I thought this was a Hootie thread.

[vailpass]

I have no problem with a coach telling his players to go out there and hit hard, but when you get into specifics like "take his acl out" or "hit him right there on the chin" to give the guy a concussion, you've gone too far. You're talking about not only taking the guy out of the game, but potentially ending their season. It has no place in the game.

Maybe not your game but it has a place in mine. I prefer my NFL to be a violent contact bloodsport in full-go gladiator mode, as it was in days gone by.

[Phobia]

That stuff is unnecessary. Obvious GW has had success in the game. I don't think this garbage is the reason he's a great DC. How does it correlate to injuries the Saints have doled out?

[whoman69]

Maybe not your game but it has a place in mine. I prefer my NFL to be a violent contact bloodsport in full-go gladiator mode, as it was in days gone by.

Those people got sued.

[Dylan]

Maybe not your game but it has a place in mine. I prefer my NFL to be a violent contact bloodsport in full-go gladiator mode, as it was in days gone by.

Medical research: The game will never return to "in days gone by."


Studies on Head Injuries

Head injuries, including concussions, particularly in the game of American football, have become a subject of deep concern, much study and even Congressional hearings in the United States.

Concussions

Contrary to popular belief, a concussion is not a bruise to the brain caused by hitting a hard surface. Indeed, no physical swelling or bleeding is usually seen on radiological scans. The injury generally occurs when the head either accelerates rapidly and then is stopped, or is spun rapidly.

This violent shaking causes the brain cells to become depolarized and fire all their neurotransmitters at once in an unhealthy cascade, flooding the brain with chemicals and deadening certain receptors linked to learning and memory. The results often include confusion, blurred vision, memory loss, nausea and, sometimes, unconsciousness.

Neurologists say once a person suffers a concussion, he is as much as four times more likely to sustain a second one. Moreover, after several concussions, it takes less of a blow to cause the injury and requires more time to recover.



Studies on Head Injuries

A 2000 study surveyed 1,090 former N.F.L. players and found more than 60 percent had suffered at least one concussion in their careers and 26 percent had had three or more. Those who had had concussions reported more problems with memory, concentration, speech impediments, headaches and other neurological problems than those who had not, the survey found.

A 2007 study conducted by the University of North Carolina's Center for the Study of Retired Athletes found that of the 595 retired N.F.L. players who recalled sustaining three or more concussions on the football field, 20.2 percent said they had been found to have depression. That is three times the rate of players who have not sustained concussions.

As scrutiny of brain injuries in football players has escalated in the past few years, with prominent professionals reporting cognitive problems and academic studies supporting a link more generally, the N.F.L. and its medical committee on concussions have steadfastly denied the existence of reliable data on the issue.

But in September 2009, a study commissioned by the N.F.L. reported that Alzheimer's disease or similar memory-related diseases appear to have been diagnosed in the league's former players vastly more often than in the national population — including a rate of 19 times the normal rate for men ages 30 through 49.

The study, which was conducted by the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, has not been peer-reviewed, but the findings fall into step with several recent independent studies regarding N.F.L. players and the effects of their occupational head injuries.

Congressional Hearing

After the study results were reported, Representative John Conyers Jr., a Michigan Democrat and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, held a hearing on the impact of head injuries sustained by N.F.L. players.

The league and Commissioner Roger Goodell had insisted that the N.F.L.'s policies were safe and that no third-party involvement was necessary, pointing to research by its committee on concussions as proof. But after an embarrassing hearing on the issue before the House Judiciary Committee in which the league was compared to the tobacco industry, the doctors leading the league's committee resigned.

In December 2009, the league announced that it would impose its most stringent rules to date on managing concussions, requiring players who exhibit any significant sign of concussion to be removed from a game or practice and be barred from returning the same day.

Several members of Congress portrayed Mr. Goodell and the league as impeding proper player care and obfuscating the long-term effects of concussions. The league and a former co-chairman of its committee on brain injuries, Dr. Ira Casson, have consistently played down studies and anecdotal evidence linking retired N.F.L. players to brain damage commonly associated with boxers and dementia rates several times that of the national population.

The N.F.L. Players Association called for the removal of Dr. Casson, saying that he is too biased to lead the research and policy group.

On Nov. 24, 2009, Dr. Casson and Dr. David Viano, co-chairmen of the committee, resigned from the group.

In a memo to all teams in which he outlined several measures regarding concussions, Commissioner Goodell said that Dr. Casson and Dr. Viano would "continue to assist the committee," but offered no details of any future relationship.

Several doctors testified to links they have found between sports head trauma and later cognitive degeneration. Dr. Ann McKee, who has studied the brains of football players after death, testified that she believed the connection was clear and called for immediate changes to the game and concussion treatment.

Changes in N.F.L. Rules

The National Football League on Dec. 3, 2009, announced that it would impose its most stringent rules to date on managing concussions, requiring players who exhibit any significant sign of concussion to be removed from a game or practice and be barred from returning the same day.

The league's former practice of allowing players to return when their concussion symptoms subside has been criticized for putting its players at risk. It is widely known that symptoms of a concussion can reappear hours or days after the injury, indicating that the player had not healed from the initial blow.

Symptoms that require immediate removal include amnesia, poor balance and an abnormal neurological examination, whether or not those symptoms quickly subside. For symptoms like dizziness and headache, however, a player can return to the field unless they are "persistent," the statement said.

In July 2010, the N.F.L. asserted greater risks of head injury and toughened warnings by producing a poster that bluntly alerts its players to the long-term effects of concussions, using words like "depression" and "early onset of dementia."

Limited Standard for Helmets

Football helmets are made in a largely unmonitored world.

The one helmet standard was written by the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment, or Nocsae, a volunteer consortium that includes, and is largely financed by, the helmet makers themselves. Nocsae accepts no role in ensuring that helmets, either new or old, meet even its limited requirement. The standard has not changed meaningfully since it was written in 1973, despite rising concussion rates in youth football.

Moreover, used helmets worn by the vast majority of young players encountered stark lapses in the industry’s few safety procedures. Some of the businesses that recondition helmets ignored testing rules, performed the tests incorrectly or returned helmets that were still in poor condition. More than 100,000 children are wearing helmets too old to provide adequate protection — and perhaps half a million more are wearing potentially unsafe helmets that require critical examination, according to interviews with experts and industry data.

Awareness of head injuries in football was heightened in October 2010 when helmet-first collisions caused the paralysis of a Rutgers University player, a concussion to Philadelphia Eagles receiver DeSean Jackson and injuries to three other N.F.L. players. Although some injuries are unavoidable results of football physics, helmet standards have not kept up with modern football, industry insiders said.

After more than 100 high school and college football players in the 1960s were killed by skull fractures and acute brain bleeding, Nocsae was formed to protect players against the extreme forces that caused those injuries. The resulting standard, phased in by all levels of football through the 1970s, requires helmets to withstand a 60-inch free fall without allowing too much force to reach the skull.

This standard has accomplished its intent: skull fractures in football have essentially disappeared, and the three or four football-related deaths each year among players under 18 are caused by hits following a concussion that has not healed (known as second-impact syndrome) rather than by a single fatal blow.But as the size and speed of players have increased since the full adoption of the Nocsae standard in 1980, concussion rates have as well.

While bicycle helmets are designed to withstand only one large impact before being replaced, football helmets can encounter potentially concussive forces hundreds of times a season. Helmets cannot get too large or heavy, so helmet designers say they face a trade-off: make helmets stiff enough to withstand high impacts and allow less violent forces to cause concussions, or more softly cushion against concussive-type forces while allowing large impacts to crack the skull. The helmet industry has essentially chosen the former.


Source: The New York Times: ARTICLES ABOUT FOOTBALL HEAD INJURIES

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/f/football/head_injuries/index.html


http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/1-800-934-2921-free-consultation/18-nfl-lawsuits-about-taking-responsibility-for-players-health.html


Greg Williams: Lifetime ban

[chiefzilla1501]

God I hope they don't ruin the NFL.

Why would it? This isn't about punishing hard hits. Payton should be the one with the lifetime ban, by the way. This is about gamblers putting money on players. And this isn't about hard hits, this is about players that were trying to take QBs out through pre-meditated, highly illegal cheap shots.

I'm glad he's getting a lifetime ban.

[chiefzilla1501]

Maybe not your game but it has a place in mine. I prefer my NFL to be a violent contact bloodsport in full-go gladiator mode, as it was in days gone by.

You win games by competing and playing your ass off, even if that means hitting a guy hard.

You cheat by resorting to illegal cheap shots to knock the best player out. And in the Vikings game, they did just that. Yes, I believe they cheated their way to a win in Minnesota, and this is coming from a Favre hater.

It's a pussy tactic to believe that your only chance to win is to take the other team's best player out by any means necessary. If that happens because of the course of the game, fine.

[vailpass]

Those people got sued.

More's the pity.

[vailpass]

Why would it? This isn't about punishing hard hits. Payton should be the one with the lifetime ban, by the way. This is about gamblers putting money on players. And this isn't about hard hits, this is about players that were trying to take QBs out through pre-meditated, highly illegal cheap shots.

I'm glad he's getting a lifetime ban.

I don't mean just this specific incident. I was referring to the trends limiting the options of the defense in general over the last few years. Apologies for not being clear.

[vailpass]

You win games by competing and playing your ass off, even if that means hitting a guy hard.

You cheat by resorting to illegal cheap shots to knock the best player out. And in the Vikings game, they did just that. Yes, I believe they cheated their way to a win in Minnesota, and this is coming from a Favre hater.

It's a pussy tactic to believe that your only chance to win is to take the other team's best player out by any means necessary. If that happens because of the course of the game, fine.

Agreed.

[crispystl]

My beef is with the ACL comments and the "make sure Vernon Davis' ankle goes over the top. ( I assume that's so they can take a cheap shot on it?) I have no problem with the hit them on the chin comments. I also have beef with him talking about hitting Gore's head in the pile.

[Dylan]

First reported by Yahoo Sports: Now the world can read Greg Williams bone chilling plans here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A2KLPny4PX5PIFsAhQc5nYcB?slug=ms-silver_gregg_williams_speech_saints_49ers_bounty_040412

No doubt the NFL is filled with tough talk and hard hits. However, Williams crosses the line when he instructs his players to take out Michael Crabtree's surgically repaired "ACL knee" - to repeadly "touch the head" of Frank Gore, amid all the studies on head injuries, "to hit Vernon Davis' ankles around the pile."

While Williams talks to his players about a "remember me" hit on Alex Smith, Pamphilon says, "Williams rubs his fingers together as a signal for cash and implies payment."

"The first one's on me," Williams says.

If you believed the NFL's case against the Saints was perhaps less warranted by precedent, think again. At the very least, the audio proves Williams should be banned for life. Which gets us around to Payton, Loomis and Vitt - The jury's still out."

Just my opinion.


For Sean Pamphilon's take on the experience, read here:

http://theusof.com/2012/04/tru-dat-gregg-williams-saints-audio-bountygate-pay-for-pain/


WARNING: Expletive.
Below is the 12 minutes Sean Pamphilon recorded during this meeting.

Under Resources: Uncut Greg Williams Audio http://theusof.com/category/press/

[Dylan]

Why would it? This isn't about punishing hard hits. Payton should be the one with the lifetime ban, by the way. This is about gamblers putting money on players. And this isn't about hard hits, this is about players that were trying to take QBs out through pre-meditated, highly illegal cheap shots.

I'm glad he's getting a lifetime ban.

Agreed.

When interviewed in 2012, Sean Payton claimed to be entirely unaware of the program, a claim contradicted by others. Further, prior to the Saints’ opening game in 2011, Coach Payton received an email from convicted felon Mike Ornstein that stated in part, “PS Greg Williams put me down for $5000 on Rogers (sic).” When shown the email during the course of the investigation, Coach Payton stated that it referred to a “bounty” on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

A 2010 lawsuit by the Saints' former director of security, Geoff Santini, accused Loomis of trying to cover up the theft of the prescription painkiller Vicodin by members of the football staff. The front office also ignored league directives to disassociate themselves with convicted felon Mike Ornstein, who - was also implicated in the bounty scandal.


Who Dat Dummies

[Dylan]

MNF Giants at Saints, November 2011: Saints Safety Isa Abdul-Quddus huge hit on Hakeem Nicks

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MNF: Giants at Saints 2011: Fights broke out during the entire game

MNF Giants at Saints, November 2011: Giants Safety Kenny Phillips returns a vicious hit on Saints TE Jimmy Graham

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