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BigMeatballDave
04-30-2012, 06:21 PM
If he could actually read his life would be a lot better in many ways. Poor dude.

You'd still be sucking on your mother's colostomy bag. :)

SAUTO
04-30-2012, 06:23 PM
Okay.

I misread the posts.

You suck at capitalization, so its a push.
You misread but you still argued about it after i pointed out the error?


Yep, you are an idiot.

i just don't use caps, it's from when i started here but you wouldn't know about then...
Posted via Mobile Device

BossChief
04-30-2012, 06:26 PM
Nice to see ya back around Jason.

BigMeatballDave
04-30-2012, 06:30 PM
You misread but you still argued about it after i pointed out the error?


Yep, you are an idiot.

i just don't use caps, it's from when i started here but you wouldn't know about then...
Posted via Mobile DeviceOMG Cry a little harder, won't ya?

I'm quite certain you've never misread ANYTHING. Right?

You keep calling me an idiot, but notice I've refrained from saying anything negative towards you.

You're welcome.

SAUTO
04-30-2012, 06:33 PM
OMG Cry a little harder, won't ya?

I'm quite certain you've never misread ANYTHING. Right?

You keep calling me an idiot, but notice I've refrained from saying anything negative towards you.

You're welcome.

Not much for you to say negative about me at this point.
Posted via Mobile Device

SAUTO
04-30-2012, 06:34 PM
Nice to see ya back around Jason.

Thanks boss.
Nice to see nothings changed ROFL
Posted via Mobile Device

BigMeatballDave
04-30-2012, 06:45 PM
Not much for you to say negative about me at this point.
Posted via Mobile Device

And me misreading something was?

I didnt call you an idiot for defending Pioli.

SAUTO
04-30-2012, 06:47 PM
And me misreading something was?

I didnt call you an idiot for defending Pioli.

You probably shouldn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

BigMeatballDave
04-30-2012, 06:59 PM
You probably shouldn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

I won't. Pioli is the idiot.

Raiderhater
04-30-2012, 09:51 PM
Let's count all the reasons Pioli sucks:

Scott Pioli inherited a 2-14 team stockpiled with some of the worst players in the NFL. In three seasons, he has rebuilt it into a perennial playoff contender. He hired Todd Haley, boo hoo. Todd Haley and his staff actually took players like Dwayne Bowe, Tamba Hali and Derrick Johnson and got them to reach their potential. Glenn Dorsey was a lost cause until Haley showed up and made him work off the gut.

When the relationship with Haley was unsalvageable, Pioli cut ties. He has drafted well, even when you don't like it. The only bad draft we've had with him has been the Tyson Jackson year, which was atrocious, but the guy had three months with the scouts to pick these guys. Scouts are out ALL year looking for the types of players you want. It was also an historically weak draft.

Pioli traded for Matt Cassel, yeah. And it was a great trade. We got Mike Vrabel, who was absolutely instrumental in our transition to the 3-4, and a starting quarterback for a second round pick.

Did Cassel have a pro bowl year? Where he threw 27 TD to 7 INT? Where he took us to the playoffs? Yes. Okay, then. I'll take that for a second round pick any time.

The fact that Cassel has proven, OVER TIME, to not be the answer at QB is in no way an indictment of Pioli. We didn't know he wasn't the answer! He sure as hell looked like it in 2010. But oh boy, now that we know, we sure are ready to put Pioli in the doghouse for bringing him in. Hindsight is 20/20, and you have lasers coming out of your eyes. Settle down.

Pioli is going to be around for a LONG TIME. And frankly, I couldn't be happier. To be a good team, you have to have consistency, and that includes the front office. This team was one blocked field goal away from the playoffs last year, and that's after losing Berry, Charles, Moeaki, firing the head coach and losing the starting QB, and without their #1 draft pick for several weeks. And against a first-place schedule.

This team is getting really good. Yes, we need a new QB, but did you really want Kirk freaking Cousins? Nick Foles? Come on, man. If we're taking a quarterback, it is going to be the best in the draft, not the seventh guy off the board with a noodle arm.


I have zero problem with the trade. It was the large ass contract on a one year wonder that I have a problem with. Cassel gets a reasonable contract and doesn't pan out, all good. We swung and missed. But with that big of a pay day, you better f#cking produce. If not for the contract, I don't think Cassel would be nearly as hated as he is.

BigMeatballDave
04-30-2012, 09:54 PM
I have zero problem with the trade. It was the large ass contract on a one year wonder that I have a problem with. Cassel gets a reasonable contract and doesn't pan out, all good. We swung and missed. But with that big of a pay day, you better f#cking produce. If not for the contract, I don't think Cassel would be nearly as hated as he is.

I dont care about the contract. I didnt mind the trade, at the time. We needed a QB.

I dislike him because he sucks. Same reason I dislike Pioli.

BossChief
04-30-2012, 10:02 PM
I came unglued when we gave him that contract.

It was so bad that future deals for "impressive backups" will probably only be able to get half value because of it.

Matt Flynns deal is probably a first sign of exactly that.

Raiderhater
04-30-2012, 10:06 PM
I dont care about the contract. I didnt mind the trade, at the time. We needed a QB.

I dislike him because he sucks. Same reason I dislike Pioli.


I dislike him because he sucks as well. My point is that with that much money expectations were set way to high.

The trade was good. The long term big pay day was the mistake.

Titty Meat
04-30-2012, 11:55 PM
for everything else he has done?

Sure you can give him for credit for things but are there any more important things to a team than a coach and a QB?

go bo
05-01-2012, 12:08 AM
no about 70 degrees.


i just cant stand idiocy.


and you, sir, are an idiot.

and idiot...

your and idiot...


try to get it right, wouldja? :Poke:

Dylan
05-01-2012, 01:19 AM
You are talking about 2 instances over 25 years. You don't build an NFL team on a back up QB. Both of those teams had elite defenses. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT KC IS TRYING TO DO.

Super Bowl XXV Buffalo Bills 19 New York Giants 20
The 1990 New York Giants were built to head coach Bill Parcells' specifications of "power football": a powerful defense and an offense that sustained extremely long drives. The Giants' defense ranked second in the league in fewest total yards allowed (4,392) and first in fewest points allowed, and boasted three Pro Bowl selections: defensive tackle Erik Howard, and linebackers Pepper Johnson and Lawrence Taylor. The secondary was led by defensive back Everson Walls, an offseason acquisition from the Dallas Cowboys, who recorded 6 interceptions.

On December 15, 1990, Phil Simms broke his foot during a game against quarterback Jim Kelly and Buffalo Bills. The following week, Jeff Hostetler, who had thrown only 109 passes in his 7 years with the Giants, took over as the starting quarterback. The Giants won their final two regular seasons games and swept through the playoffs, defeating the Bills in Super Bowl XXV, 20–19. During the game, he completed 20 of 32 passes for 222 yards, with one touchdown and no interceptions. In 2008, ESPN ranked Hostetler's performance #30 for the best quarterback performances in Super Bowl history.

Perhaps most impressive about Hostetler was his ability to perform very well in the post-season. In playoff games, he completed 72 of 115 passes (62.6 percent) for 1,034 yards, seven touchdowns, no interceptions, and a 112.0 passer rating.

The Bills had a very talented team with 9 Pro Bowl selections on their roster. Their defense was led by defensive end Bruce Smith, who recorded 19 sacks and won the NFL Defensive Player of the Year Award. Behind him, 3 of the Bills starting linebackers, Darryl Talley, Shane Conlan, and Cornelius Bennett, were selected to the Pro Bowl. And on special teams, Pro Bowler Steve Tasker was a major threat, forcing fumbles, delivering jarring tackles, and blocking kicks.

But as good as their defense was, it was the Bills' flashy, high-powered offense that gained the most attention. Unlike the Giants, the Bills routinely used the no-huddle offense to storm down the field and score points very quickly. Instead of going into a huddle after each play, quarterback Jim Kelly would immediately send his offense back to the line of scrimmage and call the play there after reading the defense. This strategy prevented opposing defenses from properly reading the Bills formation, making substitutions, or even catching their breath.

The Bills' no-huddle K-Gun offense worked well enough for Kelly to finish the regular season as the top rated quarterback in the NFL (101.2), throwing for 2,829 yards, 24 touchdowns, and only 9 interceptions. One reason for his success was that he had 2 outstanding wide receivers: Andre Reed, who made his specialty going across the middle on slants and crossing routes, recorded 71 receptions, 945 yards, and 8 touchdowns, and future hall of famer James Lofton, who was the deep threat with 35 receptions for 712 yards (a 20.3 yards per catch average). Tight end Keith McKeller contributed 34 receptions for 464 yards and 5 touchdowns. Pro Bowl running back Thurman Thomas had 1,297 rushing yards, caught 49 passes for 532 yards, and scored 13 touchdowns.

Thomas led the NFL in yards from scrimmage. A key to the Bills' prolific offense was the blocking of its superb offensive line, led by All-Pro center Kent Hull and Pro Bowl left tackle Will Wolford.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 02:03 AM
i just don't use caps, it's from when i started here but you wouldn't know about then...
Posted via Mobile DeviceHuh? Why wouldnt I know about then?

KurtCobain
05-01-2012, 02:04 AM
Huh? Why wouldnt I know about then?

He's assuming you've been huffing paint.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 02:09 AM
He's assuming you've been huffing paint.

Oh, yeah.

That was a rough time.

I could never decide between Krylon and RustOleum

KurtCobain
05-01-2012, 02:20 AM
Put your krylon in a gas can and go to town.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 02:25 AM
Put your krylon in a gas can and go to town.

I actually knew a kid in HS who burnt his junk off huffing gas.

Rasputin
05-01-2012, 02:39 AM
I actually knew a kid in HS who burnt his junk off huffing gas.

I actually knew a kid in GS that saved a booger on his desk and ate it after recess. no fucking shit!

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 02:40 AM
I actually knew a kid in GS that saved a booger on his desk and ate it after recess. no fucking shit!

LMAO

Rasputin
05-01-2012, 02:43 AM
LMAO

More like :Lin:

nasty little kid.

Rasputin
05-01-2012, 02:47 AM
LMAO

I knew this other kid that when he laughed during lunch time if he took a drink of milk it would come out his nose. That was pretty gross too.

whoman69
05-01-2012, 07:12 AM
I came unglued when we gave him that contract.

It was so bad that future deals for "impressive backups" will probably only be able to get half value because of it.

Matt Flynns deal is probably a first sign of exactly that.

I bet Matt Flynn hates Cassel more than we do.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 08:13 AM
Sure you can give him for credit for things but are there any more important things to a team than a coach and a QB?

Exactly.

Man, this guy built a hell of house. Marble countertops, hardwood floors, monster fireplace...too bad it doesn't have a ROOF.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 08:18 AM
The idea that Cassel had a "good" year in 2010 comes from reading boxscores instead of watching games.

Remember that the full proper name for QB Rating is the QB EFFICIENCY rating. It's easy to complete a high percentage and minimize INTs when you run the ball 60% of the time and never pass the ball further than 5 yards.

philfree
05-01-2012, 09:01 AM
The idea that Cassel had a "good" year in 2010 comes from reading boxscores instead of watching games.

Remember that the full proper name for QB Rating is the QB EFFICIENCY rating. It's easy to complete a high percentage and minimize INTs when you run the ball 60% of the time and never pass the ball further than 5 yards.

I still can't figure out which QB Pioli should have drafted or brought in that we really had a shot at and that was any good. The solution at QB just isn't as easy as people want it to be unfortunately for us Chiefs fans it's been way to long since we had a real franchise QB and we're jaded from it. And unfortunately Pioli can't just hunker down and shit one out.

Beside that Pioli has built a damn good roster. Can't call it great until it produces.

suzzer99
05-01-2012, 09:17 AM
He could have traded for RGIII. He could have admitted Cassel is a bust and kept the slight improvement Orton. He could have gone after Tannenhill.

patteeu
05-01-2012, 09:30 AM
He could have traded for RGIII. He could have admitted Cassel is a bust and kept the slight improvement Orton. He could have gone after Tannenhill.

He could have gone after Peyton Manning. In fact, he did.

Chiefnj2
05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
He could have gone after Peyton Manning. In fact, he did.

Calling Peyton only to have Manning say "sorry wrong number" isn't really going after Manning.

CrazyHorse
05-01-2012, 09:34 AM
He could have traded for RGIII. He could have admitted Cassel is a bust and kept the slight improvement Orton. He could have gone after Tannenhill.

They tried all those things. Didnt work out.

CrazyHorse
05-01-2012, 09:36 AM
I still can't figure out which QB Pioli should have drafted or brought in that we really had a shot at and that was any good. The solution at QB just isn't as easy as people want it to be unfortunately for us Chiefs fans it's been way to long since we had a real franchise QB and we're jaded from it. And unfortunately Pioli can't just hunker down and shit one out.

Beside that Pioli has built a damn good roster. Can't call it great until it produces.

Whoa!! A reasonable post.

Epic.

philfree
05-01-2012, 09:44 AM
He could have traded for RGIII. He could have admitted Cassel is a bust and kept the slight improvement Orton. He could have gone after Tannenhill.

It would have cost us more then it cost the Skins to move up to the 2nd pick. We would have had what would amounted to more than four 1st rounders invested in a player that could or couldn't work out. RGIII isn't a sure thing. Oh and just becuase the Redskins tarded away a bunch of picks does that mean it was a good move? It is the Dan Snyder Redskins we're talking about.

Orton looked good moving the ball in a couple games but he's not the answer. He's not Cassel that's true but he's not the guy. Not a franchise QB. Treading water.

I would have liked Tannehill but we have no clue what the cost would have been to move up and get him. I wouldn't want to give multiple 1st rounders for a guy who needs to develope for a year before he's ready to take the field.

I guess Pioli hasn't gambled big on a QB prospect but he really hasn't passed on one yet either.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 09:46 AM
I still can't figure out which QB Pioli should have drafted or brought in that we really had a shot at and that was any good. The solution at QB just isn't as easy as people want it to be unfortunately for us Chiefs fans it's been way to long since we had a real franchise QB and we're jaded from it. And unfortunately Pioli can't just hunker down and shit one out.

Beside that Pioli has built a damn good roster. Can't call it great until it produces.

Mark Sanchez.

Yes, we know he isn't the answer at QB.
No one knew that at the time.

You still need to take a shot.

philfree
05-01-2012, 09:53 AM
Mark Sanchez.

Yes, we know he isn't the answer at QB.
No one knew that at the time.

You still need to take a shot.

If Pioli and his scouts didn't evaluate Sanchex as a franchise QB then they shouldn't have drafted him. They signed Cassel before the draft so they had their QB and it's looking like a push at this point. Neither one is a franchise QB. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 10:00 AM
If Pioli and his scouts didn't evaluate Sanchex as a franchise QB then they shouldn't have drafted him. They signed Cassel before the draft so they had their QB and it's looking like a push at this point. Neither one is a franchise QB. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

You ignored what I posted.

We KNOW how its worked out to this point.

My point is, you have to try. Scott has not.

philfree
05-01-2012, 10:08 AM
You ignored what I posted.

We KNOW how its worked out to this point.

My point is, you have to try. Scott has not.

Their evaluation came before the draft and if Pioli and his scouts viewd Sanchex as what he appears to be now, then they shoun't have drafted him that high period. The Jets just brought in Tebow to try jump start the offense that Sanchex runs for christ sakes.

I'm all for trying but looking at the situation I don't see where Pioli has missed on that true franchise QB.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 10:16 AM
Their evaluation came before the draft and if Pioli and his scouts viewd Sanchex as what he appears to be now, then they shoun't have drafted him that high period. The Jets just brought in Tebow to try jump start the offense that Sanchex runs for christ sakes.

I'm all for trying but looking at the situation I don't see where Pioli has missed on that true franchise QB.

Again, you're thinking in current terms.

Plus, I doubt they seriously looked into Sanchez considering how quickly they made the move to acquire Shitbag.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 10:23 AM
Sometimes I wonder if Pioli still believes this game is still played and officiated like it was 20 yrs ago.

MahiMike
05-01-2012, 10:27 AM
I think you're right. 30 of 32 teams have fans that are unhappy about the draft. I like the fact that we took a gamble on a NT that could turn out to be pretty damn good.

philfree
05-01-2012, 10:41 AM
Again, you're thinking in current terms.

Plus, I doubt they seriously looked into Sanchez considering how quickly they made the move to acquire Shitbag.

Not really. I'm looking at both at this point but the Chiefs made their evaluations on Sanchex before the 2009 draft. And that's what they based their decision on. And what's happened since then has backed it up. Sanchex wasn't worth the pick. I want to draft a QB as bad as anybody here but I don't want to draft on just to be appeased though.

I'm pretty sure that drafting a bust QB with your first pick as a GM isn't a good move.

patteeu
05-01-2012, 10:42 AM
Calling Peyton only to have Manning say "sorry wrong number" isn't really going after Manning.

What was he supposed to do, kidnap the guy?

CrazyHorse
05-01-2012, 10:46 AM
Again, you're thinking in current terms.

Plus, I doubt they seriously looked into Sanchez considering how quickly they made the move to acquire Shitbag.

Most here were happy when the deal was made for Cassel. Whether dealing with Cassel or Sanchez, niether looks to be the right answer now. Its like being pissed off for getting punched in the mouth instead of being kicked in the nuts.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 01:07 PM
I still can't figure out which QB Pioli should have drafted or brought in that we really had a shot at and that was any good.

Josh Freeman.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 01:27 PM
Josh Freeman.

He's certainly been a world-beater in Tampa, hasn't he?

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 01:29 PM
He's certainly been a world-beater in Tampa, hasn't he?

We would be a lot better off with Josh Freeman right now than Matt Cassel.

He had a down season last year, but looked awesome his 2nd season (better than Cassel has EVER played), and he's not playing with much talent in TB.

I think he'd be a very good QB in KC with the talent we have here.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
He's certainly been a world-beater in Tampa, hasn't he?

To be fair, they've had a bottom 5 defense 2 of his 3 years there. Last year, they were the worst defense in the league.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm amazed that people would sit here and try to find reasons we shouldn't have drafted Josh Freeman instead of trading for a guy who has hit his head on his NFL ceiling and is bleeding from the brain.

OnTheWarpath15
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
He's certainly been a world-beater in Tampa, hasn't he?

Dear lord.

People have been more that willing to defend a 27, 28 and 29 year old Matt Cassel, but because Josh Freeman doesn't have an Arrowhead on his helmet, he's automatically dismissed after 3 seasons.

He's 24 freaking years old.

And he's done more with less than Cassel.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 01:51 PM
I'm amazed that people would sit here and try to find reasons we shouldn't have drafted Josh Freeman instead of trading for a guy who has hit his head on his NFL ceiling and is bleeding from the brain.

ROFL

The Franchise
05-01-2012, 01:52 PM
He's certainly been a world-beater in Tampa, hasn't he?

:spock:

lcarus
05-01-2012, 01:53 PM
I can't wait to see how pissed everyone is when Matt Flynn turns out to be good.

Setsuna
05-01-2012, 02:04 PM
You guys could have had Cam Newton. Think about that.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
I'm not gonna criticize Pioli for that. No GM in the league goes after a rookie QB in the 1st when the starter is coming off 27-7 and a division title, and especially if it takes the #1 pick.

But Josh Freeman, certainly. Hell, we could have traded down and picked Freeman. Pioli would look like a genius.

Rausch
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
Dear lord.

People have been more that willing to defend a 27, 28 and 29 year old Matt Cassel, but because Josh Freeman doesn't have an Arrowhead on his helmet, he's automatically dismissed after 3 seasons.

He's 24 freaking years old.

And he's done more with less than Cassel.

So he's only got 4-5 years to improve enough to play better than C@$$#ole?

I'm going out on a limb here but I think he can pull that one off...

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 02:07 PM
You guys could have had Cam Newton. Think about that.

Huh?

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:11 PM
:spock:

FREEMAN
1800 yards, 54%, 10 TD, 18 INT
3451 yards, 62%, 26 TD, 6 INT, 10-6 record, playoffs
3598 yards, 63%, 16 TD, 22 INT, 4-12 record

vs.

CASSEL
3,693 yards, 63.4 %, 21 TD, 11 INt, 11-5 record, missed playoffs
2,924 yards, 55.0%, 16 TD, 16 INT, 4-12 record
3,116 yards, 58.2 %, 27 TD, 7 INT, 10-6 record, playoffs
1,713 yards, 59.5 %, 10 TD, 9 INT, injured*

I wouldn't go around saying Freeman has given ANY indication he is remotely better than Cassel.

Each had a good 2010 season. Cassel also had a pretty good 2008. They both have thrown up turd seasons.

At least cassel has never had more INT than TD, which is the RULE for Freeman, not the exception, at least at this point.

The Franchise
05-01-2012, 02:18 PM
ROFL

BossChief
05-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Let's be real here.

If we picked Freeman, EVERYONE here would have hated the pick and would be calling for his head by now.

Around here, people generally only back the guys they wanted the team to draft themselves and ALWAYS see the grass as greener everywhere but in our own yard.

Also, it's funny that so many here are reluctant to give ANY credit to Pioli...but praise Tampa while in the same breath say Freeman has no talent around him. Funnier yet is that a lot of people wanted Arelious Benn at the spot DMC was picked and he hasn't done anything.

Funny

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:20 PM
We would be a lot better off with Josh Freeman right now than Matt Cassel.

I'm sure those 22 picks he threw last year might've helped us win the division.
:rolleyes:

He had a down season last year, but looked awesome his 2nd season (better than Cassel has EVER played), and he's not playing with much talent in TB.

I think he'd be a very good QB in KC with the talent we have here.

He's younger. And he's got a better arm. That's about where it ends.

That team has talent.
It's still green and developing, but they have talent offensively.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:21 PM
To be fair, they've had a bottom 5 defense 2 of his 3 years there. Last year, they were the worst defense in the league.

I wasn't even referencing the team overall.
I'm merely talking about Freeman's three year performance.
He's had 1 good season. He regressed last year.

He's got talent, but to pretend all of our problems would be solved (had we drafted him) is to stretch the truth...quite a bit.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:22 PM
Dear lord.

People have been more that willing to defend a 27, 28 and 29 year old Matt Cassel, but because Josh Freeman doesn't have an Arrowhead on his helmet, he's automatically dismissed after 3 seasons.

He's 24 freaking years old.

And he's done more with less than Cassel.

You're so tenacious at knocking strawmen down.
Not sure where I dismissed him. Or where I defended Cassel.
I simply said he's not much better than Cassel. IF he's better at all.

Pasta Little Brioni
05-01-2012, 02:23 PM
Let's be real here.

If we picked Freeman, EVERYONE here would have hated the pick and would be calling for his head by now.

Around here, people generally only back the guys they wanted the team to draft themselves and ALWAYS see the grass as greener everywhere but in our own yard.

Also, it's funny that so many here are reluctant to give ANY credit to Pioli...but praise Tampa while in the same breath say Freeman has no talent around him. Funnier yet is that a lot of people wanted Arelious Benn at the spot DMC was picked and he hasn't done anything.Funny

But, but, but, but *100 excuses follow*....

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:23 PM
I love the attitude around here that the only reason we don't have an elite QB on this team is by conscious choice, as though getting a top flight QB is as easy as deciding to do it. Like we're in a 7-11 with just shit loads of excellent, available quarterbacks in every aisle, but we're too cheap or arrogant to do it.

Cassel had an excellent season in 2010. Why would we have drafted a QB then? And if we had, who? It made sense, coming off that season, to draft a late round developmental guy (which we did).

The next year, Cassel shit the bed amid a crazy year of turmoil. Now, I was literally the first person I knew calling for his head. Still, it was our shit luck that Barkley and Jones go back to school, and Luck and RG3 are all but untouchable. So...what? Trade up for Tannehill, a pick that was MORE of a reach than Poe?

The reason you're all pissed is that you feel like Pioli doesn't realize that Cassel isn't cutting it. What did you expect him to do? Get on CP and start a thread midseason titled "Cassel Sucks - I need to fire him NOW!"

We're going to replace Cassel. Sooner, rather than later. when that happens, I expect we will make a prudent, intelligent move to draft an elite prospect. We won't trade three firsts and a second to get him. We might have to move up, but it won't be insane.

Next year Oakland, KC, and maybe Arizona need a new QB. That sounds a lot better than 5 teams fighting for 2 guys. Bray, Wilson, or Barkley will be on this team in 2013. Cassel will not.

Settle down.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 02:25 PM
FREEMAN
1800 yards, 54%, 10 TD, 18 INT
3451 yards, 62%, 26 TD, 6 INT, 10-6 record, playoffs
3598 yards, 63%, 16 TD, 22 INT, 4-12 record

vs.

CASSEL
3,693 yards, 63.4 %, 21 TD, 11 INt, 11-5 record, missed playoffs
2,924 yards, 55.0%, 16 TD, 16 INT, 4-12 record
3,116 yards, 58.2 %, 27 TD, 7 INT, 10-6 record, playoffs
1,713 yards, 59.5 %, 10 TD, 9 INT, injured*

I wouldn't go around saying Freeman has given ANY indication he is remotely better than Cassel.

Each had a good 2010 season. Cassel also had a pretty good 2008. They both have thrown up turd seasons.

At least cassel has never had more INT than TD, which is the RULE for Freeman, not the exception, at least at this point.

Freeman averages a FULL YARD more per attempt than Cassel, even in his 2010 "Pro Bowl" season...

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:26 PM
ROFL

:shake:

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:26 PM
Let's be real here.

If we picked Freeman, EVERYONE here would have hated the pick and would be calling for his head by now.

Around here, people generally only back the guys they wanted the team to draft themselves and ALWAYS see the grass as greener everywhere but in our own yard.

Also, it's funny that so many here are reluctant to give ANY credit to Pioli...but praise Tampa while in the same breath say Freeman has no talent around him. Funnier yet is that a lot of people wanted Arelious Benn at the spot DMC was picked and he hasn't done anything.

Funny

/thread

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:26 PM
Freeman averages a FULL YARD more per attempt than Cassel, even in his 2010 "Pro Bowl" season...

Woopty shit. He's giving the ball to the defense a yard closer to their endzone. The guy is a turnover machine.

I'm not saying Freeman sucks, but pretending that he's somehow this amazing upgrade over Cassel is just dumb. He has shown nothing to warrant that kind of praise. If we had Freeman on the team, we'd all be one more shitty season away from calling for a full regime change for drafting a guy that has had one good season.

Lots of dudes have one magical season...against last place schedules...

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 02:27 PM
I wasn't even referencing the team overall.
I'm merely talking about Freeman's three year performance.
He's had 1 good season. He regressed last year.

He's got talent, but to pretend all of our problems would be solved (had we drafted him) is to stretch the truth...quite a bit.

He's 24 and came out of college needing development.

He's essentially the SAME as Cassel, except Cassel is almost 6 years older and has ZERO chance to become any better.

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Woopty shit. He's giving the ball to the defense a yard closer to their endzone. The guy is a turnover machine.

Funny, this criticism doesn't seem to apply to Kyle Orton around here.

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:31 PM
Funny, this criticism doesn't seem to apply to Kyle Orton around here.

I didn't want Orton either! I will forever be indebted to Orton for one reason...

He showed, beyond argument, that this team needs talent at QB, and can win with better talent at QB. Everyone could see with their own eyes what happens when there is a QB who can actually throw.

Thank you, Orton. You are dismissed back to irrelevance now.

I want, more than anything, for KC to draft a QB in the first round. I want the hoopla. I want the excitement, the hope, the fanfare. We need it as a franchise and as a fan base.

This was not the year for it, much to my dismay. I have to hold out hope for next year, purely because there are no other options available.

Rausch
05-01-2012, 02:32 PM
I love the attitude around here that the only reason we don't have an elite QB on this team is by conscious choice, as though getting a top flight QB is as easy as deciding to do it. Like we're in a 7-11 with just shit loads of excellent, available quarterbacks in every aisle, but we're too cheap or arrogant to do it.

Cassel had an excellent season in 2010. Why would we have drafted a QB then? And if we had, who? It made sense, coming off that season, to draft a late round developmental guy (which we did).

The next year, Cassel shit the bed amid a crazy year of turmoil. Now, I was literally the first person I knew calling for his head. Still, it was our shit luck that Barkley and Jones go back to school, and Luck and RG3 are all but untouchable. So...what? Trade up for Tannehill, a pick that was MORE of a reach than Poe?

The reason you're all pissed is that you feel like Pioli doesn't realize that Cassel isn't cutting it. What did you expect him to do? Get on CP and start a thread midseason titled "Cassel Sucks - I need to fire him NOW!"

We're going to replace Cassel. Sooner, rather than later. when that happens, I expect we will make a prudent, intelligent move to draft an elite prospect. We won't trade three firsts and a second to get him. We might have to move up, but it won't be insane.

Next year Oakland, KC, and maybe Arizona need a new QB. That sounds a lot better than 5 teams fighting for 2 guys. Bray, Wilson, or Barkley will be on this team in 2013. Cassel will not.

Settle down.

Pioli has mentioned numerous times that you don't need to take a QB in round one to develop a franchise guy. I think he believes that.

The only way I see us taking a QB in the 1st/2nd is if it's a guy that falls like Brees or Rodgers...

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
I love the attitude around here that the only reason we don't have an elite QB on this team is by conscious choice, as though getting a top flight QB is as easy as deciding to do it. Like we're in a 7-11 with just shit loads of excellent, available quarterbacks in every aisle, but we're too cheap or arrogant to do it.

Cassel had an excellent season in 2010. Why would we have drafted a QB then? And if we had, who? It made sense, coming off that season, to draft a late round developmental guy (which we did).

The next year, Cassel shit the bed amid a crazy year of turmoil. Now, I was literally the first person I knew calling for his head. Still, it was our shit luck that Barkley and Jones go back to school, and Luck and RG3 are all but untouchable. So...what? Trade up for Tannehill, a pick that was MORE of a reach than Poe?

The reason you're all pissed is that you feel like Pioli doesn't realize that Cassel isn't cutting it. What did you expect him to do? Get on CP and start a thread midseason titled "Cassel Sucks - I need to fire him NOW!"

We're going to replace Cassel. Sooner, rather than later. when that happens, I expect we will make a prudent, intelligent move to draft an elite prospect. We won't trade three firsts and a second to get him. We might have to move up, but it won't be insane.

Next year Oakland, KC, and maybe Arizona need a new QB. That sounds a lot better than 5 teams fighting for 2 guys. Bray, Wilson, or Barkley will be on this team in 2013. Cassel will not.

Settle down.

/thread (again)

Micjones
05-01-2012, 02:45 PM
He's 24 and came out of college needing development.

He's essentially the SAME as Cassel, except Cassel is almost 6 years older and has ZERO chance to become any better.

I already conceded that he was younger, but I'm still not sure this team would be in better shape today.

saphojunkie
05-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Pioli has mentioned numerous times that you don't need to take a QB in round one to develop a franchise guy. I think he believes that.

The only way I see us taking a QB in the 1st/2nd is if it's a guy that falls like Brees or Rodgers...

Here is the NFL QB breakdown, as I see it:

$ = recent financial commitment/extention
* drafted in first 36 picks, still on first contract
:thumb: = shown success, either probowl or postseason. not being replaced.

JETS - SANCHEZ $ *
BILLS - FITZPATRICK $
PATS - BRADY :thumb:
DOLPHINS - TANNEHILL *

STEELERS - ROETHLESBERGER :thumb:
BROWNS - WEEDEN *
BENGALS - DALTON :thumb:*
RAVENS - FLACCO :thumb:

CHIEFS - CASSEL
RAIDERS - PALMER
CHARGERS - RIVERS :thumb:
BRONCOS - MANNING/OSWEILER $ * :thumb:

JAGUARS - GABBERT *
TEXANS - SCHAUB/YATES :thumb:
COLTS - LUCK *
TITANS - LOCKER *

GIANTS - MANNING :thumb:
EAGLES - VICK/FOLES :thumb:
COWBOYS - ROMO
REDSKINS - RG3 *

49ERS - SMITH/CAPERNICK *
RAMS - BRADFORD *
CARDINALS - KOLB $ * (two second rounders)
SEAHAWKS - FLYNN/WILSON $

VIKINGS - PONDER *
BEARS - CUTLER $
LIONS - STAFFORD $:thumb:
PACKERS - RODGERS $:thumb:

SAINTS - BREES $ :thumb:
PANTHERS - NEWTON * :thumb:
FALCONS - RYAN * $ :thumb:
BUCCANEERS - JOSH "ALL WORLD" FREEMAN *


As far as I can tell, the four teams with a strong chance of wanting to change their QB are the Chiefs, the Raiders (ouch), and maybe the Cowboys and Cardinals.

Everyone else has a successful QB, an expensive QB, a QB they drafted in the top 36 picks, or a combination of these criteria.

I could see Jerry Jones sacking up and going for the best QB available, but if Romo stays healthy and has a good season, then we might be looking at the biggest buyer's market for first round QB that I can remember.

Easily one could fall to us, or trading up wouldn't be nearly as costly.

suzzer99
05-01-2012, 02:55 PM
Funny, this criticism doesn't seem to apply to Kyle Orton around here.

At least Kyle Orton can complete a screen pass in stride. At least he can make up his mind to throw sooner than 2 seconds after the receiver comes open and then quick release it from there.

Just those two things put him worlds ahead of Cassel.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 03:00 PM
At least Kyle Orton can complete a screen pass in stride. At least he can make up his mind to throw sooner than 2 seconds after the receiver comes open and then quick release it from there.

Just those two things put him worlds ahead of Cassel.

Let's just forget that he sucks the fat one in Red Zone situations.

Rausch
05-01-2012, 03:04 PM
Let's just forget that he sucks the fat one in Red Zone situations.

He does.

When Casshole can consistently march a team down to the red zone we'll see what he can do...

htismaqe
05-01-2012, 03:21 PM
At least Kyle Orton can complete a screen pass in stride. At least he can make up his mind to throw sooner than 2 seconds after the receiver comes open and then quick release it from there.

Just those two things put him worlds ahead of Cassel.

And when he brain farts in the red zone and throws a pick?

Kyle Orton is DOG SHIT.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 03:41 PM
Let's be real here.

If we picked Freeman, EVERYONE here would have hated the pick and would be calling for his head by now.


Not necessarily.

The Chiefs have a lot more talent than the Bucs and Freeman would most likely look a lot better.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm sure those 22 picks he threw last year might've helped us win the division.


With our D, and our receivers, I doubt very seriously that he would have thrown 22 picks.

Use your brain.

BossChief
05-01-2012, 04:09 PM
Not necessarily.

The Chiefs have a lot more talent than the Bucs and Freeman would most likely look a lot better.

Doesn't matter. It was nearly unanimous here that nobody wanted to draft Freeman...he was a second round talent.

People would have hated the pick and never gave it a chance.

Personally, I would have hated the pick and stll am not a fan of the kid.

I don't think he would have been worth our #3 overall (not even close) and you don't EVER move down to take a quarterback for what should be obvious reasons.

IMO We don't have a franchise quarterback due to lack of options.

KCDC
05-01-2012, 04:37 PM
Nice analysis Sapho. If we are lucky, there could be only a few clubs in the hunt for a QB early next year. I happen to think that we will be picking at about #25, so we have to hope that one of the 2-3 good QBs fall to us. They might.

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 04:55 PM
Doesn't matter. It was nearly unanimous here that nobody wanted to draft Freeman...he was a second round talent.

People would have hated the pick and never gave it a chance.


And Freeman would have won them over.

If Cassel can go 27-7 with the 2010 Chiefs, Freeman would have had us crying and shitting and fucking.

Titty Meat
05-01-2012, 08:01 PM
Doesn't matter. It was nearly unanimous here that nobody wanted to draft Freeman...he was a second round talent.

People would have hated the pick and never gave it a chance.

Personally, I would have hated the pick and stll am not a fan of the kid.

I don't think he would have been worth our #3 overall (not even close) and you don't EVER move down to take a quarterback for what should be obvious reasons.

IMO We don't have a franchise quarterback due to lack of options.

Atleast he produced against major competition unlike Poe.

OnTheWarpath15
05-01-2012, 08:07 PM
Doesn't matter. It was nearly unanimous here that nobody wanted to draft Freeman...he was a second round talent.

People would have hated the pick and never gave it a chance.

Personally, I would have hated the pick and stll am not a fan of the kid.

I don't think he would have been worth our #3 overall (not even close) and you don't EVER move down to take a quarterback for what should be obvious reasons.

IMO We don't have a franchise quarterback due to lack of options.

I would have hated the pick at the time, and enjoyed eating some crow when I saw how he played in the bigs.

I'd much rather have been wrong and enjoyed some crow, instead of being right about Cassel from Day One.

And I'm sorry, but this "lack of options" bullshit is just that - bullshit.

We don't have a franchise QB because Pioli fucking whiffed, gave a long contract to a career backup, and intends to give the guy at least 4 of the 6 years on the deal.

We don't have a franchise QB because Pioli thinks we already have one.

BossChief
05-01-2012, 09:40 PM
I would have hated the pick at the time, and enjoyed eating some crow when I saw how he played in the bigs.

I'd much rather have been wrong and enjoyed some crow, instead of being right about Cassel from Day One.

And I'm sorry, but this "lack of options" bullshit is just that - bullshit.

We don't have a franchise QB because Pioli fucking whiffed, gave a long contract to a career backup, and intends to give the guy at least 4 of the 6 years on the deal.

We don't have a franchise QB because Pioli thinks we already have one.22 picks in his third year as starter.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 10:02 PM
With our D, and our receivers, I doubt very seriously that he would have thrown 22 picks.

Use your brain.

Who were his receivers in 2010 when he posted a 95.9 QB Rating?

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 10:04 PM
Who were his receivers in 2010 when he posted a 95.9 QB Rating?

Mike Williams, Kellen Winslow and Arellious Benn.

Williams was a rookie, BTW, and so was Benn.

Micjones
05-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Mike Williams, Kellen Winslow and Arellious Benn.

Williams was a rookie, BTW, and so was Benn.

Guess who his receivers were last year?
Mike Williams, Kellen Winslow, Arrelious Benn, Dezmon Briscoe & Preston Parker.

You were saying?

Hammock Parties
05-01-2012, 10:31 PM
Guess who his receivers were last year?
Mike Williams, Kellen Winslow, Arrelious Benn, Dezmon Briscoe & Preston Parker.

You were saying?

I think you just proved my point, bro.

He'd play a lot better with our receivers.

Not to mention our OL and running game. And defense.

BigMeatballDave
05-01-2012, 10:31 PM
being right about Cassel from Day One.
I bet this isnt true...

Blick
05-01-2012, 10:47 PM
22 picks in his third year as starter.

Roethlisberger threw 23 in his third year.

the Talking Can
05-01-2012, 10:48 PM
Now, I was literally the first person I knew calling for his head.

first...is that a joke? that's like telling someone you discovered the beatles...last year

second...the excuses...holy shit, Pioli is a genious we have to praise, but he amazingly bears no responsibility for the QB he hand picked and whose claim to fame is one of the most embarrassing playoff performances by a QB in chiefs history...that and being unable to hit the broad side of an ocean sized barn

even though Pioli is paid $5 mill a year, anyone in his place would have had to acquire Cassel and do nothing else at QB for 4 years, is the story...

there is no fan base - not even close - that is as flat fucking retarded when it comes to the subject of QB...you can't suck ass enough to force this fan base to hold someone accountable

Setsuna
05-01-2012, 10:50 PM
Huh?

I gotta get in a troll post in each thread. Thems the breaks.

Dave Lane
05-02-2012, 07:32 AM
Dear lord.

People have been more that willing to defend a 27, 28 and 29 year old Matt Cassel, but because Josh Freeman doesn't have an Arrowhead on his helmet, he's automatically dismissed after 3 seasons.

He's 24 freaking years old.

And he's done more with less than Cassel.

There's someone defending Cassel? Where?

Micjones
05-02-2012, 07:38 AM
I think you just proved my point, bro.

He'd play a lot better with our receivers.

Not to mention our OL and running game. And defense.

Not sure how I did that. He regressed with more offensive talent.

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 07:58 AM
There's someone defending Cassel? Where?

Holy shit, have you been living in a cave for the past three years?

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 07:59 AM
22 picks in his third year as starter.

And?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 09:16 AM
Not sure how I did that. He regressed with more offensive talent.

Not really. It was about the same level of talent, and fairly inferior to what the Chiefs have. That's not up for debate. That's a fact.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 09:18 AM
In fact, it's fairly obvious what happened to Freeman last year:

He was playing with the same guys on offense, but the defense went from 9th to 32nd.

So try playing from behind constantly with Mike Williams and Arellious Benn as your best wide receivers, and playing behind a pretty questionable OL, with NO RUNNING GAME, and see how many picks you end up throwing.

Freeman > Cassel

Freeman > Idiot Chiefs fans

Pasta Little Brioni
05-02-2012, 09:26 AM
I love the excuses given to underachievers on other teams. Sorry, a "Franchise QB" raises the level of play around him. If he's not that, we aren't missing out on shit.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 09:28 AM
I love the excuese given to underachievers on other teams. Sorry, a "Franchise QB" raises the level of play around him. If he's not that, we aren't missing out on shit.

He did the year before, when the defense wasn't playing like utter shit.

Pasta Little Brioni
05-02-2012, 09:30 AM
He did the year before, when the defense wasn't playing like utter shit.

....and went to shit when something went wrong this year. Didn't they play a "weak ass schedule" the year before?

BossChief
05-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Haha I know Freeman is better than Cassel, but to act as if he is some great player worth #3 overall is lunacy.

I'm tempted to start calling him "Black Castle"

Micjones
05-02-2012, 09:31 AM
Not really. It was about the same level of talent, and fairly inferior to what the Chiefs have. That's not up for debate. That's a fact.

Parker and Briscoe didn't play much in 2010.

But let's address the 2nd half of your post...
Cassel's been burned at the stake for the idea that he needs more talent around him. It's okay to make that excuse for Freeman though?

Micjones
05-02-2012, 09:35 AM
In fact, it's fairly obvious what happened to Freeman last year:

He was playing with the same guys on offense, but the defense went from 9th to 32nd.

So try playing from behind constantly with Mike Williams and Arellious Benn as your best wide receivers, and playing behind a pretty questionable OL, with NO RUNNING GAME, and see how many picks you end up throwing.

Freeman > Cassel

Freeman > Idiot Chiefs fans

Not like Cassel's ever played from behind.
Not like Tampa's Defensive woes had anything to do with Offensive ineptitude.
Not like Freeman threw a bunch of picks in college.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 09:41 AM
Parker and Briscoe didn't play much in 2010.

But let's address the 2nd half of your post...
Cassel's been burned at the stake for the idea that he needs more talent around him. It's okay to make that excuse for Freeman though?

The difference is that Freeman played at an extremely high level with LESS talent around him in 2010.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 09:42 AM
Jesus, people, I'm not saying Freeman is a top 5 QB.

Just that we'd be a lot better off with him at QB than Cassel.

At least he's capable of completing more than 60 percent of his passes.

Cassel is doing well to hit 58 percent.

Pasta Little Brioni
05-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Jesus, people, I'm not saying Freeman is a top 5 QB.

Just that we'd be a lot better off with him at QB than Cassel.

At least he's capable of completing more than 60 percent of his passes.

Cassel is doing well to hit 58 percent.

Fair enough. I just don't consider him a Franchise guy which is what we ultimately want.

Coogs
05-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Not like Cassel's ever played from behind.


There is where the 3-16 stat comes into play. He's not bringing us back if we have to rely on his arm.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 10:00 AM
The difference is that Freeman played at an extremely high level with LESS talent around him in 2010.

Briscoe saw more playing time in 2011.
Resulted in nearly 300 more receiving yards and 5 more TD's.

Parker saw more playing time in 2011.
Resulted in 500+ more receiving yards and 3 more TD's.

Lumpkin saw more playing time in 2011.
Resulted in 250+ more receiving yards.

Benn's numbers went up slightly.
There was less production from the run game sans Cadillac Williams.

Resulted in about 3 fewer points per game.

To say that ought to explain 4 times the interceptions though?

BULLSHIT.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 10:05 AM
If Briscoe and Parker and some dogshit HB named Lumpkin is your defense, I win. Those are all nothing players.

Especially with the 32nd ranked defense making the Bucs constantly play from behind.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 10:20 AM
Fair enough. I just don't consider him a Franchise guy which is what we ultimately want.

The point is, Freeman COULD STILL BE a franchise QB.

The book is closed on Cassel, however.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 10:21 AM
Haha I know Freeman is better than Cassel, but to act as if he is some great player worth #3 overall is lunacy.

I'm tempted to start calling him "Black Castle"

Freeman wasn't worth the #3 overall but Tannehill was worth trading 2nd and 3rd round picks for?

Wow.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 10:22 AM
The point is, Freeman COULD STILL BE a franchise QB.

The book is closed on Cassel, however.

The book never opened.

O.city
05-02-2012, 10:26 AM
So the book is still open on Sanchez and Quinn?

Fish
05-02-2012, 10:27 AM
The book never opened.

Was there even a book to begin with? I thought it was more of a pamphlet...

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 10:28 AM
So the book is still open on Sanchez and Quinn?

Sanchez is still young but it's obvious he's got something upstairs that is preventing him from flourishing. I think he's a spoiled brat myself, so while his book is still open, I'm not sure it's worth reading.

Chiefnj2
05-02-2012, 10:29 AM
So the book is still open on Sanchez and Quinn?

Sanchez, yes. Quinn, not really.

Sometimes a QB prospect hits the lottery like Sanchez. He goes to a team with a top 5 defense and top 5 running game. He isn't asked to do much and the team wins. Quinn went to the Browns. No top 5 defense, no top anything and he suffered a few injuries early on. Basically, it's career over.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 10:30 AM
So the book is still open on Sanchez and Quinn?

Yes.

Sanchez is young enough that he still has an opportunity. Quinn on the other hand pretty much has this last stop to prove that he's worth anything. The dude has the talent.....he's just been stuck in some shitty fucking situations.

Chief Roundup
05-02-2012, 10:33 AM
Freeman wasn't worth the #3 overall but Tannehill was worth trading 2nd and 3rd round picks for?

Wow.

Would never of cost a 2cd and a 3rd to move up.
The Cowboys moved from the 14th pick to the 6th pick for their 2cd round pick.
The Jags moved from the 7th to the 5th pick for a 4th round pick.
It would not of costed more than a 3rd rounder to move up and take Tannehill.

Blick
05-02-2012, 10:37 AM
Sanchez, yes. Quinn, not really.

Sometimes a QB prospect hits the lottery like Sanchez. He goes to a team with a top 5 defense and top 5 running game. He isn't asked to do much and the team wins. Quinn went to the Browns. No top 5 defense, no top anything and he suffered a few injuries early on. Basically, it's career over.

We have the potential to be that kind of team, but the defense is probably a year away from top 5.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 10:40 AM
Would never of cost a 2cd and a 3rd to move up.
The Cowboys moved from the 14th pick to the 6th pick for their 2cd round pick.
The Jags moved from the 7th to the 5th pick for a 4th round pick.
It would not of costed more than a 3rd rounder to move up and take Tannehill.

So you're saying Freeman wasn't worth a #3 but Tannehill was worth the #8 plus a 3rd rounder?

Gimme a break.

O.city
05-02-2012, 10:40 AM
Sanchez, yes. Quinn, not really.

Sometimes a QB prospect hits the lottery like Sanchez. He goes to a team with a top 5 defense and top 5 running game. He isn't asked to do much and the team wins. Quinn went to the Browns. No top 5 defense, no top anything and he suffered a few injuries early on. Basically, it's career over.

So basically he was put in a shitty no win situation?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 10:43 AM
Yep, he's not even close to as good as Cassel.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fNFmF9DcZ1k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

saphojunkie
05-02-2012, 10:46 AM
In fact, it's fairly obvious what happened to Freeman last year:

He was playing with the same guys on offense, but the defense went from 9th to 32nd.

So try playing from behind constantly with Mike Williams and Arellious Benn as your best wide receivers, and playing behind a pretty questionable OL, with NO RUNNING GAME, and see how many picks you end up throwing.

Freeman > Cassel

Freeman > Idiot Chiefs fans

I love when you think of one argument, don't actually follow it through to it's conclusion, and just post it like solid fucking gold logic.

Tampa Bay didn't have the #32 defense last year. That honor belonged to...drum roll...the Green Bay Packers. Which probably explains why Aaron Rodgers sucked so bad in 2011, right? RIGHT??

ooohhh shit. That's right. He threw 45 TD and 6 INT. Led the league in passer rating.

:rolleyes:

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 10:48 AM
They had the #32 scoring defense.

And I'm sorry Josh Freeman isn't as good as the best QB in the league.

Chiefnj2
05-02-2012, 10:49 AM
So basically he was put in a shitty no win situation?

IMHO, you occasionally have that once in a decade QB that can really mask a lot of weaknesses and win games. At this early point, it looks like Cam Newton could be one of those guys. Other than those guys, I think most other QB's need a really good support system in place and they need a system carefully designed around them.

Big Ben won his first year because of the team around him. If he was on the Browns I don't think they go to the Super Bowl instead.

O.city
05-02-2012, 10:51 AM
IMHO, you occasionally have that once in a decade QB that can really mask a lot of weaknesses and win games. At this early point, it looks like Cam Newton could be one of those guys. Other than those guys, I think most other QB's need a really good support system in place and they need a system carefully designed around them.

Big Ben won his first year because of the team around him. If he was on the Browns I don't think they go to the Super Bowl instead.

I agree.



I've said it before, but IMO, it's more about situation than anything.

saphojunkie
05-02-2012, 10:53 AM
first...is that a joke? that's like telling someone you discovered the beatles...last year

second...the excuses...holy shit, Pioli is a genious we have to praise, but he amazingly bears no responsibility for the QB he hand picked and whose claim to fame is one of the most embarrassing playoff performances by a QB in chiefs history...that and being unable to hit the broad side of an ocean sized barn

even though Pioli is paid $5 mill a year, anyone in his place would have had to acquire Cassel and do nothing else at QB for 4 years, is the story...

there is no fan base - not even close - that is as flat ****ing retarded when it comes to the subject of QB...you can't suck ass enough to force this fan base to hold someone accountable

Yet another person talking in abstracts. You still can't point to a time and opportunity to have replaced him. Or are you saying you were against the signing from the beginning?

Sometimes I think you people forget just how atrocious this team was before Pioli took over. Even with the amazing players Herm drafted, in his everlasting wisdom.

O.city
05-02-2012, 10:54 AM
It's one reason I'm actually slightly optimistic about Quinn. Obviously, the guy is really or was at one time, really talented and thought to have all the tools.



Hopefully he was just never in the right situation.

saphojunkie
05-02-2012, 10:56 AM
They had the #32 scoring defense.

And I'm sorry Josh Freeman isn't as good as the best QB in the league.

That's not the point. You want to blame a QB throwing interceptions on having a last-ranked defense. I'm sure there's a correlation, but not nearly one strong enough to lay the blame for INTs on the defense.

The ball was safe and sound until he let go of it. It's on Freeman. 22 is a shitload of interceptions, dude. That isn't just playing from behind. That's fundamental problems with decision making.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:01 AM
That's not the point. You want to blame a QB throwing interceptions on having a last-ranked defense. I'm sure there's a correlation, but not nearly one strong enough to lay the blame for INTs on the defense.

The ball was safe and sound until he let go of it. It's on Freeman. 22 is a shitload of interceptions, dude. That isn't just playing from behind. That's fundamental problems with decision making.

I don't give a fuck.

Pioli would look a lot smarter if Josh Freeman were our QB right now.

And there's no fucking way he'd have thrown 22 picks here.

For all his "fundamental" problems he threw 6 picks the year before.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 11:05 AM
I would easily take Freeman over Cassel and Benn over McCluster.

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 11:05 AM
Freeman wasn't worth the #3 overall but Tannehill was worth trading 2nd and 3rd round picks for?

Wow.

Whatever suits their argument.

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 11:07 AM
I would easily take Freeman over Cassel and Benn over McCluster.

Without question.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 11:08 AM
Let's have it out once and for all...

Please name all of the QB's Pioli had a realistic chance of signing or drafting since he took over as GM (that are clearly better options than Cassel).

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Let's have it out once and for all...

Please name all of the QB's Pioli had a realistic chance of signing or drafting since he took over as GM (that are clearly better options than Cassel).

Josh Freeman.

Kyle Orton.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 11:13 AM
Josh Freeman.

Kyle Orton.

Wow. Two names?
I was fully expecting a half-dozen.

And I think the idea that either of those two are CLEARLY better is laughable.

Kyle Orton sucks goat dick in the red zone.
Freeman's high watermark season, 2010, was comparable to Cassel's 2010 performance, but I'd hardly call it "better".

Quesadilla Joe
05-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Josh Freeman.

Kyle Orton.

Andy Dalton, Tim Tebow, Mark Sanchez.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 11:15 AM
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Kyle Orton
Andy Dalton
T.J. Yates

Micjones
05-02-2012, 11:17 AM
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Kyle Orton
Andy Dalton
T.J. Yates

/caseclosed

milkman
05-02-2012, 11:19 AM
Without question.

The reality is that people are going to place a value on a player based on their opinion of the given player.

I would have given up a 1st and 2rd for Tannehill because I believe strongly that he has huge upside.

I didn't see Freeman in school, so I had no real opinion, but 2 years ago, many, or most, were on the Clausen bandwagon and would have happily spent the #5 pick on him while I just didn't see it, and thought that the pick would be wasted.

SAUTO
05-02-2012, 11:21 AM
I don't give a fuck.

Pioli would look a lot smarter if Josh Freeman were our QB right now.

And there's no fucking way he'd have thrown 22 picks here.

For all his "fundamental" problems he threw 6 picks the year before.
i see you keep saying this but do you have a link to some proof of that or did you just make it up?

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 11:22 AM
Those that think this team wouldn't be better off RIGHT NOW with guys like Sanchez, Freeman or Dalton have a pretty weak argument as it is.

But they're missing the point completely.

Those players ALL have more POTENTIAL than Cassel, and more YEARS in which to REALIZE that potential.

You stupid fucks are more worried about getting your pathetic 9 fucking wins every year, and aren't willing to look at the big picture - the future of this franchise.

I could give two shits if we're better now. If the goal is to win a championship, then at some point this organization is going to have to suck it up and do what it takes - even if that means trading a fuckton of picks - to get a legitimate potential elite QB.

Blick
05-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Freeman is no worse of a first round pick than Tannehill or Gabbert.

SAUTO
05-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Those that think this team wouldn't be better off RIGHT NOW with guys like Sanchez, Freeman, Dalton or Freeman have a pretty weak argument as it is.

But they're missing the point completely.

Those players ALL have more POTENTIAL than Cassel, and more YEARS in which to REALIZE that potential.

You stupid fucks are more worried about getting your pathetic 9 fucking wins every year, and aren't willing to look at the big picture - the future of this franchise.

I could give two shits if we're better now. If the goal is to win a championship, then at some point this organization is going to have to suck it up and do what it takes - even if trading a fuckton of picks - to get a legitimate potential elite QB.

i agree on all but sanchez.

i dont see the potential there anymore, IMO he just doesnt have "it".


and i wanted to draft him that year.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:24 AM
i see you keep saying this but do you have a link to some proof of that or did you just make it up?

When you're not constantly playing from behind, and you have some semblance of a running game to run on, you don't throw picks.

I mean, do you even watch football?

This is a Super Bowl contender with Josh Freeman at QB. He makes throws Cassel can only dream of.

Ming the Merciless
05-02-2012, 11:25 AM
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Kyle Orton
Andy Dalton
T.J. Yates

http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/e/eb/ebb22674_not-sure-if-serious.jpg

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 11:25 AM
i agree on all but sanchez.

i dont see the potential there anymore, IMO he just doesnt have "it".


and i wanted to draft him that year.

Where you been? Haven't seen you around much. Then again, I haven't been around much lately either.

Gotta run to a staff meeting, I'll check back in and comment later.

SAUTO
05-02-2012, 11:26 AM
When you're not constantly playing from behind, and you have some semblance of a running game to run on, you don't throw picks.

I mean, do you even watch football?

This is a Super Bowl contender with Josh Freeman at QB. He makes throws Cassel can only dream of.

lol. ok buddy.

no qb throws picks when his team can run the ball and is ahead. Got it. thanks for teaching me something today:rolleyes:

BigMeatballDave
05-02-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm pretty sure I'd take a warm beer over Cassel.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Watch the video I posted, look at the throws at 0:57, 1:24, 2:21 and 2:50.

If we had someone who could do that...SUPER BOWL.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fNFmF9DcZ1k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SAUTO
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
Where you been? Haven't seen you around much. Then again, I haven't been around much lately either.

Gotta run to a staff meeting, I'll check back in and comment later.

life was calling. LOL.


short handed at the shop, remodeling the house and adding some rooms (raiders guy will be happy though, all cash money homie), wife's expecting, it's a nightmare trying to run a business and run that at home... at least i live close to the shop.

it's good to have time to see whats going on here though.

oh and i couldnt take this place through the manning drama.ROFL

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:31 AM
How many picks does Cassel throw with the 30th ranked running game and 32nd ranked defense?

30? 40?

SAUTO
05-02-2012, 11:31 AM
How many picks does Cassel throw with the 30th ranked running game and 32nd ranked defense?

30? 40?

again thats all a guess.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 11:34 AM
Those that think this team wouldn't be better off RIGHT NOW with guys like Sanchez, Freeman or Dalton have a pretty weak argument as it is.

But they're missing the point completely.

Those players ALL have more POTENTIAL than Cassel, and more YEARS in which to REALIZE that potential.

You stupid ****s are more worried about getting your pathetic 9 ****ing wins every year, and aren't willing to look at the big picture - the future of this franchise.

I could give two shits if we're better now. If the goal is to win a championship, then at some point this organization is going to have to suck it up and do what it takes - even if that means trading a ****ton of picks - to get a legitimate potential elite QB.

Potential? Hmm...
I take from this that you're happy with the Poe selection then?

At the end of the day, NONE of those QB's are clearly better than Cassel today.

Could Sanchez or Freeman turn out to be? Sure, but the three years they've logged thus far don't help that argument.

Dalton? We'll have to wait and see.

Yates? Seriously? Somebody really typed his name in this forum?

Orton? Really? He threw 1 TD during his Chiefs tenure. 1.

This idea that franchise QB's grow on trees is bullshit.
If it were that simple...everybody would have one.

As it stands...about 1 in every 4 NFL teams does.

Do we ALL want an elite QB? Sure. But let's have some perspective.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 11:41 AM
I love when you think of one argument, don't actually follow it through to it's conclusion, and just post it like solid ****ing gold logic.

Tampa Bay didn't have the #32 defense last year. That honor belonged to...drum roll...the Green Bay Packers. Which probably explains why Aaron Rodgers sucked so bad in 2011, right? RIGHT??

ooohhh shit. That's right. He threw 45 TD and 6 INT. Led the league in passer rating.

:rolleyes:

Tampa was 32nd in the league in POINTS ALLOWED.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2011.htm

Green Bay was 32nd in the league in yards allowed but 19th in points allowed. Why? Because their OPPONENTS were playing from behind.

As I'm sure you're aware, playing catch-up has everything to do with points and nothing to do with yards...

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 11:43 AM
At the end of the day, NONE of those QB's are clearly better than Cassel today.


Bullshit. Watch the fucking video. Watch the throws he can make. The throws Cassel almost NEVER makes.

If he was on OUR team with OUR defense and OUR running game, we'd be a vastly superior team.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 11:51 AM
Bullshit. Watch the ****ing video. Watch the throws he can make. The throws Cassel almost NEVER makes.

If he was on OUR team with OUR defense and OUR running game, we'd be a vastly superior team.

If we're talking about Freeman...
He has a better arm. He makes throws Cassel CAN'T make.
But let's not pretend he doesn't also make poor decisions Cassel doesn't make.

Cassel takes better care of the ball than Freeman does.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 11:52 AM
If we're talking about Freeman...
He has a better arm. He makes throws Cassel CAN'T make.
But let's not pretend he doesn't also make poor decisions Cassel doesn't make.

Cassel takes better care of the ball than Freeman does.

Taking care of the ball is easy when you only throw 15 times a game and even then never beyond 15 yards...

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 12:03 PM
If we're talking about Freeman...
He has a better arm. He makes throws Cassel CAN'T make.
But let's not pretend he doesn't also make poor decisions Cassel doesn't make.

Cassel takes better care of the ball than Freeman does.

Like throwing INTs on screen passes to end the game?

CrazyHorse
05-02-2012, 12:03 PM
Freeman averages a FULL YARD more per attempt than Cassel, even in his 2010 "Pro Bowl" season...

Tampa doesnt throw to the backs. It may not make a lot of difference, but a little. Tampa does throw a few more wr screens than we do however. They may cancel each other out in the end. One thing for sure is Freeman is throwing a lot o' picks.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 12:04 PM
Taking care of the ball is easy when you only throw 15 times a game and even then never beyond 15 yards...

Cassel:
98 passes of 20-39 since 2009.
17 passes of 40 yards or more since 2009.
6.4 yard average.

Freeman:
106 passes of 20-39 yards since 2009.
17 passes of 40 yards or more since 2009.
6.8 yard average.

The numbers don't bear that out.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:05 PM
Cassel takes better care of the ball than Freeman does.

Freeman only threw 6 INT in 2010.

If he had enjoyed the same running game and defense Cassel did the last two seasons, I'm betting their turnover rates would look similar.

Cassel would be the worst QB in the league if he was supported by the 30th running game and 32nd defense.

Coogs
05-02-2012, 12:06 PM
Like throwing INTs on screen passes to end the game?

In Cassel's defense, he probably never expected for Lilja to be covered like that.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Cassel:
98 passes of 20-39 since 2009.
17 passes of 40 yards or more since 2009.
6.4 yard average.

Freeman:
106 passes of 20-39 yards since 2009.
17 passes of 40 yards or more since 2009.
6.8 yard average.

The numbers don't bear that out.

You're being unfair to Freeman. Looking at his aggregate stats don't paint a true picture.

Just watch the video, and you will see he can make throws down the field that Cassel never even attempts.

That's why, in his second year, he averaged 7.3 yards per attempt...a full yard better than Cassel last season.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Freeman only threw 6 INT in 2010.

If he had enjoyed the same running game and defense Cassel did the last two seasons, I'm betting their turnover rates would look similar.

Cassel would be the worst QB in the league if he was supported by the 30th running game and 32nd defense.

Cassel threw 7. He also threw more TD's (incidentally).
Wanna add up the other two seasons for both QB's?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Tampa doesnt throw to the backs.

Yes they do. Last year their backs caught something like 100 passes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2011.htm

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:09 PM
Cassel threw 7. He also threw more TD's (incidentally).
Wanna add up the other two seasons for both QB's?

No, because playing the statistical game is stupid.

Just watch the video.

Freeman does things Cassel cannot do. End of discussion.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 12:11 PM
Just watch the video, and you will see he can make throws down the field that Cassel never even attempts.

I conceded that he can make NFL throws that Cassel cannot.
That's about where Freeman's advantage ends though.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 12:11 PM
No, because playing the statistical game is stupid.

Just watch the video.

Freeman does things Cassel cannot do. End of discussion.

Right. Let's ignore analysis of official performance records.

CrazyHorse
05-02-2012, 12:12 PM
Potential? Hmm...
I take from this that you're happy with the Poe selection then?

At the end of the day, NONE of those QB's are clearly better than Cassel today.

Could Sanchez or Freeman turn out to be? Sure, but the three years they've logged thus far don't help that argument.

Dalton? We'll have to wait and see.

Yates? Seriously? Somebody really typed his name in this forum?

Orton? Really? He threw 1 TD during his Chiefs tenure. 1.

This idea that franchise QB's grow on trees is bullshit.
If it were that simple...everybody would have one.

As it stands...about 1 in every 4 NFL teams does.

Do we ALL want an elite QB? Sure. But let's have some perspective.

Logic is wasted when there's an axe to grind.

You just have to walk away from it. Those that do have persective understand what you're saying.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:15 PM
I conceded that he can make NFL throws that Cassel cannot.
That's about where Freeman's advantage ends though.

Sorry, there is no way Freeman would turn the ball over that much in Kansas City.

He showed an ability to limit turnovers when placed in a good position the year before.

No reason to think he'd play poorly in a more ideal situation with more talent.

And he's also younger and has more room to improve. He's clearly a better option than Cassel.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Logic is wasted when there's an axe to grind.

You just have to walk away from it. Those that do have persective understand what you're saying.

Point taken.

CrazyHorse
05-02-2012, 12:27 PM
Sorry, there is no way Freeman would turn the ball over that much in Kansas City.

He showed an ability to limit turnovers when placed in a good position the year before.

No reason to think he'd play poorly in a more ideal situation with more talent.

And he's also younger and has more room to improve. He's clearly a better option than Cassel.

They both sound like a couple dudes who cant carry a team. So, whats the arguement?

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 12:32 PM
Anyone want to make a wager?

I bet that Freeman has better stats than Cassel this year.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
They both sound like a couple dudes who cant carry a team. So, whats the arguement?

Freeman played like a young franchise QB in 2010.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
They both sound like a couple dudes who cant carry a team. So, whats the arguement?

One of them could still become a dude that can carry the team.

The other is a complete waste of a roster spot.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 12:34 PM
Anyone want to make a wager?

I bet that Freeman has better stats than Cassel this year.

Dude is going to light it up throwing to Vincent Jackson and Mike Williams.

OnTheWarpath15
05-02-2012, 12:38 PM
One of them could still become a dude that can carry the team.

The other is a complete waste of a roster spot.

This continues to get ignored.

O.city
05-02-2012, 12:50 PM
So by all this logic, we really need to give Brady Quinn a chance?

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 12:58 PM
So by all this logic, we really need to give Brady Quinn a chance?

Is it not worth a shot at this point? Either him or Stanzi at least provide SOME hope.

Cassel offers nothing, we know how this story ends.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:01 PM
Is it not worth a shot at this point? Either him or Stanzi at least provide SOME hope.

Cassel offers nothing, we know how this story ends.

I'm fine with that.



Especially Quinn.



He obviously had something at one point. If we are gonna cut Sanchez and Freeman slack, Quinn has been in equally shitty situations.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Quinn has never thrown for 2,000 yards in a season, let alone 3500 and 25 TD.

He deserves 0 slack because he's never shown ANY ability.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:07 PM
Has he ever had the chance?

Chief Roundup
05-02-2012, 01:10 PM
So you're saying Freeman wasn't worth a #3 but Tannehill was worth the #8 plus a 3rd rounder?

Gimme a break.

I didn't say that. Just merely pointing out that it would not of cost that much to get Tannehill like you had said.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:11 PM
Has he ever had the chance?

He was the opening Sunday starter in 2009 and averaged 130 yards a game.

He blew his chance.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:12 PM
By throwing to who?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:14 PM
Brady Quinn has won 3 games his entire career...and threw for less than 100 yards in two of those games. LMAO

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:16 PM
As bad as Freeman's wr's were, Quinn's were way worse.


If you are gonna say all this about Freeman, who has had 1 good season and one terrible one, you can't throw other guys like Quinn out.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM
Sure I can.

The guy has literally never shown anything at any point of his career.

That's kind of glaring.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM
One of them could still become a dude that can carry the team.

The other is a complete waste of a roster spot.

By this logic, Freeman has 13 more games to prove he's a "franchise QB".
Fair enough.

EyePod
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM
Romeo is mediocre. He's not terrible.

Like all mediocre head coaches, if you give him a franchise QB to work with, he can appear to be a great coach when he's really not.

Mediocre coach + mediocre QB...

JC being healthy might save them both.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:21 PM
Sure I can.

The guy has literally never shown anything at any point of his career.

That's kind of glaring.

So, that stretch of games Cassel had in 2010 didn't show anything?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:21 PM
By this logic, Freeman has 13 more games to prove he's a "franchise QB".
Fair enough.

I agree completely with this.

If he was our QB 2012 would be a big year for him to prove himself and show that 2011 was a fluke.

Pasta Little Brioni
05-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Kyle Orton
Andy Dalton
T.J. Yates

A whole lotta meh goin on...

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:22 PM
So, that stretch of games Cassel had in 2010 didn't show anything?

Cassel is almost 30. He's not worth discussing. We know what he is.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:23 PM
IMO, to see what you have in a quarterback, you need to give him 3 years. I know GM's and coaches don't always have that much time, but I think that's about the time it takes to see what you have in a guy.



Especially if you draft him in the high first round.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:26 PM
As bad as Freeman's wr's were, Quinn's were way worse.


If you are gonna say all this about Freeman, who has had 1 good season and one terrible one, you can't throw other guys like Quinn out.

That's the funniest part about it.
Quinn was MUCH more efficient through his first 12 starts, but he's finished.
Freeman may still become an elite QB.
:rolleyes:

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 01:28 PM
By this logic, Freeman has 13 more games to prove he's a "franchise QB".
Fair enough.

Pretty much. At least he still has a chance. Matt Cassel has nothing.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
Someone stated a number of games a qb has to play before you can really see what you have.


Don't remember who or how many, but I remember reading it once.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
I agree completely with this.

If he was our QB 2012 would be a big year for him to prove himself and show that 2011 was a fluke.

Just saying...

There's been much ado about Cassel's age, but the truth of the matter is that he's had 54 NFL starts. If we're SURE his time has come and gone...Freeman has 13-14 starts left to prove he's a franchise QB.

Otherwise he's just a younger QB who'll never amount to a franchise or elite level QB. Don't see much advantage there. You'd have more time, but all the time in the world won't change him not having the tools to become that guy.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 01:30 PM
That's the funniest part about it.
Quinn was MUCH more efficient through his first 12 starts, but he's finished.
Freeman may still become an elite QB.
:rolleyes:

Quinn has started what, 14 games, total? He's far from finished. He may not amount to anything but he's yet to prove it.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:30 PM
Pretty much. At least he still has a chance. Matt Cassel has nothing.

I'm not convinced of that, but if that is true...
You've seen most of the movie with Freeman too.
And I doubt seriously that he'll show us, definitively, that he's the better QB over the next 13-14 games.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 01:31 PM
Just saying...

There's been much ado about Cassel's age, but the truth of the matter is that he's had 54 NFL starts. If we're SURE his time has come and gone...Freeman has 13-14 starts left to prove he's a franchise QB.

Otherwise he's just a younger QB who'll never amount to a franchise or elite level QB. Don't see much advantage there. You'd have more time, but all the time in the world won't change him not having the tools to become that guy.

It's not just about games played - emotional maturity comes with AGE, regardless of profession.

Matt Cassel is essentially in the same developmental space as Freeman, but 5 years older.

That's simply inexcuseable.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:31 PM
Quinn has started what, 14 games, total? He's far from finished. He may not amount to anything but he's yet to prove it.

You might wanna tell the others.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:33 PM
Quinn was MUCH more efficient through his first 12 starts, but he's finished.


Well, yeah. He had 12 starts and then never showed shit ever again. He's 27. That's a long fucking time to not show anyone shit at any point that they think you're worth anything.

Josh Freeman showed a whole hell of alot in 2010.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:35 PM
And I doubt seriously that he'll show us, definitively, that he's the better QB over the next 13-14 games.

If he was in Kansas City, he probably already would have shown it.

Far better situation than 30/32 in TB.

You're talking about perhaps the worst situation in the whole league for a young QB. No running game, no defense, average receivers, average OL.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:35 PM
It's not just about games played - emotional maturity comes with AGE, regardless of profession.

Matt Cassel is essentially in the same developmental space as Freeman, but 5 years older.

That's simply inexcuseable.

Maturity at the QB position comes mostly from live game action.
He's not the average 29 year old QB who, normally, would be entering his 8th season. He has four NFL seasons on the books.

I'm not suggesting he'll get any better.

I'm just making the point that we need one standard here.

It's silly to me that we're certain Cassel's reached his ceiling, but we're unwilling to admit that Freeman's also reaching his.

He COULD prove over the next 13-14 games that he's a franchise or elite level QB, but that window is VERY small. And he'd have to play so mistake free for the argument (that he's better) to be convincing...I think he'd have to defy the reality of his past.

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:36 PM
If he was in Kansas City, he probably already would have shown it.

Far better situation than 30/32 in TB.

You're talking about perhaps the worst situation in the whole league for a young QB. No running game, no defense, average receivers, average OL.

Could the same not be said about Quinn?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:37 PM
It's silly to me that we're certain Cassel's reached his ceiling, but we're unwilling to admit that Freeman's also reaching his.


That's not silly. There's an enormous age gap, and Freeman is only 24.

Cassel has hit his ceiling. He proved it at the end of 2010, and all last year.

He's fucking finished. He's not gonna suddenly become accurate or learn to throw down the field.

Freeman has already shown that ability. Even last year. He had his best completion percentage ever.

Rausch
05-02-2012, 01:37 PM
He was the opening Sunday starter in 2009 and averaged 130 yards a game.

He blew his chance.

So you would have canned Manning after his rookie year?...

BigMeatballDave
05-02-2012, 01:37 PM
Cassel is shit. He's proven it here.

Freeman showed something. There may be something there, and I'd take him over Cassel, 100 fold.

Quinn is a big, fat question mark.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 01:37 PM
Maturity at the QB position comes mostly from live game action.
He's not the average 29 year old QB who, normally, would be entering his 8th season. He has four NFL seasons on the books.

I'm not suggesting he'll get any better.

I'm just making the point that we need one standard here.

It's silly to me that we're certain Cassel's reached his ceiling, but we're unwilling to admit that Freeman's also reaching his.

He COULD prove over the next 13-14 games that he's a franchise or elite level QB, but that window is VERY small. And he'd have to play so mistake free for the argument (that he's better) to be convincing...I think he'd have to defy the reality of his past.

Cassel should have never been the QB in the 1st place. A guy that didn't start a fucking game in college goes against everything Pioli has ever learned about QBs...

Rausch
05-02-2012, 01:38 PM
That's not silly. There's an enormous age gap, and Freeman is only 24.

Cassel has hit his ceiling. He proved it at the end of 2010, and all last year.

He's ****ing finished. He's not gonna suddenly become accurate or learn to throw down the field.

Freeman has already shown that ability. Even last year. He had his best completion percentage ever.

Freeman has a stronger arm as well...

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:38 PM
Could the same not be said about Quinn?

No. He's never gone 3500 25/6.

He's just another giant bust.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 01:39 PM
So you would have canned Manning after his rookie year?...

ROFL

Are you serious?

The guy threw for 3800 yards and 26 TD.

How is that comparable to 130 YPG?

O.city
05-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Did the Bucs not have a pretty cushy schedule in 2010 as well?

suzzer99
05-02-2012, 01:40 PM
I predict that Cassel will start off strong next year. Problem is this is probably a bad thing for us.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:42 PM
Well, yeah. He had 12 starts and then never showed shit ever again.

Did you miss the part where he had 12, and only 12, NFL starts?
He's played in 14 games TOTAL. He started in 12.

He's 27. That's a long ****ing time to not show anyone shit at any point that they think you're worth anything.

Josh Freeman showed a whole hell of alot in 2010.

He was also 9 starts into his NFL career.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 01:44 PM
That's not silly. There's an enormous age gap, and Freeman is only 24.

So, as long as he's younger...it doesn't matter that the numbers, currently, suggest he's not a significant upgrade (IF he's an upgrade at all)?

BigMeatballDave
05-02-2012, 01:48 PM
No. He's never gone 3500 25/6.

He's just another giant bust.

Ryan Leaf got 21 starts. He's an obvious bust.

Quinn has 12. 12 fucking starts is not enough to judge. I'd give Stanzi more than 12 starts and he's a fucking 5th round pick.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Quinn still has a chance.

Pasta Little Brioni
05-02-2012, 01:59 PM
Did the Bucs not have a pretty cushy schedule in 2010 as well?

Of course they did, but those games only don't count for KC.

Just like Cincy getting a good ball polishing.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 02:03 PM
So, as long as he's younger...it doesn't matter that the numbers, currently, suggest he's not a significant upgrade (IF he's an upgrade at all)?

That's just the thing...

The numbers CURRENTLY suggest - one of them is 24, the other is 30. Come on man, to not acknowledge basic human aging is just being stubborn...

CrazyHorse
05-02-2012, 02:04 PM
Freeman played like a young franchise QB in 2010.

Both did. If you want to call that level of play a franchise level. Now they're showing inconsitency. Again, whats your pioint? Freeman is growing in the wrong direction to be considered the answer. You're grasping at straws.

This is less about Freeman and more about justifying your overreaction to anything Pioli. This is the straw you're using to connect your claim that its a conspiracy between Clark Hunt, Pioli, and Cassel to build up the team in all areas only to sabotage it with Cassel. All to perpetuate mediocracy and pissing and moaning amonst fans.

Its funny watching you chicken littles scurrying around building your conspiracy theories. You guys are so sensative, and everything is so over the top.

Carry on.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 02:12 PM
That's just the thing...

The numbers CURRENTLY suggest - one of them is 24, the other is 30. Come on man, to not acknowledge basic human aging is just being stubborn...

I honestly don't think Freeman's age is important to the discussion.
He's younger, but he's still logged three seasons with his current team.
It's not like he's got 5 more years to prove his worth to the Bucs.
He has, give or take, 1 more season to prove he was worth that pick.

24 or 44.

I'm NOT arguing Cassel will improve. I'm not arguing that he needs more time.
I'm simply saying that if we KNOW what we have in Cassel after 54 starts...we're pretty close to knowing what Tampa has in Freeman. I guess we'll find out come mid-December. If I were a betting man, I'd put $100 on the fact that he won't play well enough in those 13 games to have made a compelling argument that he's clearly better than Cassel. History shows he won't play that brand of mistake-free football. Not over an extended period of time.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 02:16 PM
I honestly don't think Freeman's age is important to the discussion.
He's younger, but he's still logged three seasons with his current team.
It's not like he's got 5 more years to prove his worth to the Bucs.
He has, give or take, 1 more season to prove he was worth that pick.

24 or 44.

I'm NOT arguing Cassel will improve. I'm not arguing that he needs more time.
I'm simply saying that if we KNOW what we have in Cassel after 54 starts...we're pretty close to knowing what Tampa has in Freeman. I guess we'll find out come mid-December. If I were a betting man, I'd put $100 on the fact that he won't play well enough in those 13 games to have made a compelling argument that he's clearly better than Cassel. History shows he won't play that brand of mistake-free football. Not over an extended period of time.

A 24-year old body is possibly still maturing, especially with modern sports medicine.

A 24-year old mind is ABSOLUTELY still maturing.

Take the football out of it and look at them as human beings. One of them is chronologically "maxed out". Period.

kcbubb
05-02-2012, 02:18 PM
The Chiefs schedule for the first six games before the bye is:

• Sept. 9: Atlanta, noon (Fox)

• Sept. 16: at Buffalo, noon (CBS)

• Sept. 23: at New Orleans, noon (CBS)

• Sept. 30: San Diego, noon (CBS)

• Oct. 7: Baltimore, noon (CBS)

• Oct. 14: at Tampa Bay, noon (CBS)

How bad does the Chiefs record have to be in order to pull Cassel and start Quinn?

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 02:18 PM
I honestly don't think Freeman's age is important to the discussion.
He's younger, but he's still logged three seasons with his current team.
It's not like he's got 5 more years to prove his worth to the Bucs.
He has, give or take, 1 more season to prove he was worth that pick.

24 or 44.

I'm NOT arguing Cassel will improve. I'm not arguing that he needs more time.
I'm simply saying that if we KNOW what we have in Cassel after 54 starts...we're pretty close to knowing what Tampa has in Freeman. I guess we'll find out come mid-December. If I were a betting man, I'd put $100 on the fact that he won't play well enough in those 13 games to have made a compelling argument that he's clearly better than Cassel. History shows he won't play that brand of mistake-free football. Not over an extended period of time.

:spock:

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 02:19 PM
The Chiefs schedule for the first six games before the bye is:

• Sept. 9: Atlanta, noon (Fox)

• Sept. 16: at Buffalo, noon (CBS)

• Sept. 23: at New Orleans, noon (CBS)

• Sept. 30: San Diego, noon (CBS)

• Oct. 7: Baltimore, noon (CBS)

• Oct. 14: at Tampa Bay, noon (CBS)

How bad does the Chiefs record have to be in order to pull Cassel and start Quinn?

Even if they're winless, he'll still start.

kcbubb
05-02-2012, 02:19 PM
With Daboll coming in, how much does the offense change if at all? Does Quinn have an advantage over Cassel in knowing the offense from his previous time with Daboll?

Chief Roundup
05-02-2012, 02:20 PM
A 24-year old body is possibly still maturing, especially with modern sports medicine.

A 24-year old mind is ABSOLUTELY still maturing.

Take the football out of it and look at them as human beings. One of them is chronologically "maxed out". Period.

Rich Gannon didn't show anything until he was 32 years old.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 02:22 PM
The only way that I can see Cassel getting pulled is that he looks lost in TC, looks like complete shit in preseason and then comes out and completely shits the bed in the first 6 games of the season. And I mean 3 TDs to 10 INTs bad. He will have to actually LOSE us games based on how bad he is.

Other than that happening.....Cassel will play the entire season.

kcbubb
05-02-2012, 02:24 PM
Even if they're winless, he'll still start.

I don't think so. One thing the Hunt's respond to is ticket sales. And if the Chiefs start out bad and that stadium is empty, changes will be made.

Look at Peterson's history. Chiefs were always competitive but never won the big games. A decision wasn't made to remove him until the seats were empty.

ChiefsCountry
05-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I have a gut feeling that Brady Quinn is going to be our quarterback for this year and future Chiefs seasons.

kcbubb
05-02-2012, 02:26 PM
The only way that I can see Cassel getting pulled is that he looks lost in TC, looks like complete shit in preseason and then comes out and completely shits the bed in the first 6 games of the season. And I mean 3 TDs to 10 INTs bad. He will have to actually LOSE us games based on how bad he is.

Other than that happening.....Cassel will play the entire season.

If the stadium is empty, I think they will make a change. Quinn would bring some buzz and lots of pub too. Lots of people are curious about him and want to know if he truly is a bust.

The Franchise
05-02-2012, 02:27 PM
I have a gut feeling that Brady Quinn is going to be our quarterback for this year and future Chiefs seasons.

I do as well.

kcbubb
05-02-2012, 02:27 PM
Does anybody know how much the offense will change under Daboll?

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 02:31 PM
So, as long as he's younger...it doesn't matter that the numbers, currently, suggest he's not a significant upgrade (IF he's an upgrade at all)?

You're focusing too much on numbers.

They never paint the whole picture.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Rich Gannon didn't show anything until he was 32 years old.

Oh yeah?

Fuck you.

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 02:34 PM
Both did. If you want to call that level of play a franchise level.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Cassel DID NOT play like a franchise QB in 2010.

Freeman was being hyped big time by the end of the year as Tampa Bay's savior.

STOP looking at statistics.

One quarterback has an ability to throw accurately down the field.

The other DOES NOT.

htismaqe
05-02-2012, 02:36 PM
Rich Gannon didn't show anything until he was 32 years old.

Rich Gannon never actually showed anything. When you throw out the rose-colored revisionist history, he produced nearly IDENTICAL results to Elvis Grbac in KC and in Oakland, he played in a dink and dunk offense with two HoF WRs.

Rich Gannon may be one of the most overrated QBs in Chief fan history.

Micjones
05-02-2012, 02:36 PM
A 24-year old body is possibly still maturing, especially with modern sports medicine.

A 24-year old mind is ABSOLUTELY still maturing.

Take the football out of it and look at them as human beings. One of them is chronologically "maxed out". Period.

I get that part, but that's only important to the REST of Freeman's career.
He'll most certainly be done in Tampa Bay if he doesn't prove himself in 2012.

In being just 25 after next season he'll have 5-6 more years left in his body, but he'll be all but finished as an NFL starter. He isn't going to get another chance to be "the guy" unless the QB, he'll most certainly be backing up, goes down due to injury.

He DOES NOT have 5 more years to prove himself to the Bucs.

BigMeatballDave
05-02-2012, 02:37 PM
I have a gut feeling that Brady Quinn is going to be our quarterback for this year and future Chiefs seasons.

Unpossible. Clay said he sucks. 12 games is more than enough to evaluate...

Hammock Parties
05-02-2012, 02:37 PM
It's not so much the 12 games...it's that people saw those 12 games and decided he didn't even deserve another chance.

That's pretty bad, and that's two franchises doing that.

And I'm sure he'll be #3 here in KC, proving that he does, in fact, suck a large amount of cock.