Should Penn State Get the Death Penalty?

[Trivers]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/48126484/ns/sports-college_football/


Looks like officials are going from Penn State to state pen. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

What say ye? If so, for how long?

[HemiEd]

Where is the poll?



Yes, but I don't think it will matter much, I doubt too many non-fudge packing types will want to be going there.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

I guess Joe already did his part

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I voted no, because if this report is true, I think their whole program should be shut down.

[Jerm]

Emphatic yes and Matt Millen should get it too for his disgusting ant moronic homer act...

[Setsuna]

I voted no, because if this report is true, I think their whole program should be shut down.

100% agree. But why can't they get the death penalty after the program is reopen from being shutdown? Sounds fair.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

100% agree. But why can't they get the death penalty after the program is reopen from being shutdown? Sounds fair.

Because I don't think it should be reopened. They should be allowed to play football again just as soon as Pete Rose makes the Hall of Fame.

[eazyb81]

Joe Schad @schadjoe
NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA Manual.

The NCAA is gutless and won't touch this issue.

[Radar Chief]

Where is the poll? /Sandusky

Sorry Ed, couldn't help it.

[qabbaan]

If you can't do it for this, they shouldn't be sanctioning anyone at any level

[Setsuna]

Because I don't think it should be reopened. They should be allowed to play football again just as soon as Pete Rose makes the Hall of Fame.
I don't have children but I see where you are coming from.

Joe Schad @schadjoe
NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA Manual.

The NCAA is gutless and won't touch this issue.

Figures. I bet if Congress got involved the program would get axed.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Joe Schad @schadjoe
NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA Manual.

The NCAA is gutless and won't touch this issue.
Wow, so ku is worse than Sandusky.

[bandwagonjumper]

Defenitly not. What happened was a disgrace but it has really nothing to do with college football. The perpetrator might have been a coach but you shouldn't punish the whole program.

[vailpass]

Ridiculous. Not in the NCAA purview.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I don't have children but I see where you are coming from.


Figures. I bet if Congress got involved the program would get axed.

I don't have kids either. I just think raping children is infinitely worse than betting on baseball games. If that is a lifetime ban, how on Earth can this be classified as not as serious?

[Old Dog]

Defenitly not. What happened was a disgrace but it has really nothing to do with college football. The perpetrator might have been a coach but you shouldn't punish the whole program.

Someone didn't bother reading the article.

[vailpass]

I don't have kids either. I just think raping children is infinitely worse than betting on baseball games. If that is a lifetime ban, how on Earth can this be classified as not as serious?

Just the opposite. So serious it is in it's own class. Not an NCAA issue.

[Old Dog]

Here's the one from CBSSports

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19569937/freeh-report-penn-state-senior-officials-disregarded-childrens-welfare

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Just the opposite. So serious it is in it's own class. Not an NCAA issue.

I agree it is it's own class. I disagree that it's not an NCAA issue. The program was used to lure children. The program should be punished. Severely.

[Frazod]

Death penalty for the school or the program? No. That would hurt too many people who depend on the university for a livelihood who have absolutely nothing to do with this.

Dealth penalty for Sandusky and everybody who enabled/protected him? Fuck yes. And it shouldn't be quick, either.

[Dave Lane]

This is the most ridiculously overblown case I've ever seen in my entire life the lengths this goes to is ridiculous, insanity, seriously.

Where's this outrage when this happens to normal people. Dudes going to prison for life, Paterno is dead and disgraced what the fuck do you people want. Should Kansas City close because of Bob Bordella? How about the Westport Flea Market he had a booth at?

That dude was 10 zillion times sicker than Sandusky on his worst day.

[Setsuna]

I agree it is it's own class. I disagree that it's not an NCAA issue. The program was used to lure children. The program should be punished. Severely.

He's right.


This is the most ridiculously overblown case I've ever seen in my entire life the lengths this goes to is ridiculous, insanity, seriously.

Where's this outrage when this happens to normal people. Dudes going to prison for life, Paterno is dead and disgraced what the **** do you people want. Should Kansas City close because of Bob Bordella? How about the Westport Flea Market he had a booth at?

That dude was 10 zillion times sicker than Sandusky on his worst day.
Fuck you. I bet if it had been little girls instead, you wouldn't be saying this stupid shit. GTFO.

[Graystoke]

Defenitly not. What happened was a disgrace but it has really nothing to do with college football. The perpetrator might have been a coach but you shouldn't punish the whole program.

NOTHING TO DO WITH FOOTBALL?:banghead:

[Dave Lane]

He's right.



**** you. I bet if it had been little girls instead, you wouldn't be saying this stupid shit. GTFO.

Do you even know who Bob Bordella is? Figured as much.

Dumbass

[Mr. Laz]

Just the opposite. So serious it is in it's own class. Not an NCAA issue.
NCAA coaches
NCAA school
NCAA school administrator(not sure of the guy's title)
NCCA high profile football program
NCAA events
NCAA school allowed charity
NCAA locker room
NCAA shower
NCAA public perception

i would say it's very much an NCAA issue

[DJ's left nut]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

[Mr. Laz]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.
ignorance is not an excuse

as a collective institution, Penn State allowed multiple children to be raped on school grounds. Penn state continued to allow children to be raped by covering up previous rapes and by protecting the ACTIVE rapist.

A Criminal level of Lack of institutional control


If University can get punished for failing to stop coaches from breaking NCAA recruiting rules etc then it can get punished for this x100000000.

[DJ's left nut]

ignorance is not an excuse

as a collective institution, Penn State allowed multiple children to be raped on school grounds. Penn state continued to allow children to be raped by covering up previous rapes and by protecting the ACTIVE rapist.

A Criminal level of Lack of institutional control


If University can get punished for failing to stop coaches from breaking NCAA recruiting rules etc then it can get punished for this x100000000.

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

Where the hell does it end? Penn State isn't a monolith, it's an organization that is composed of tens of thousands of wholly innocent people that will have their livelihoods irreversably damaged by the decision you want to make. Poor schlubs like the history teacher are going to lose their jobs because this decision will go FAR beyond the football program.

There is no such thing as "Penn State: Collective Institution". There is Penn State, a major state college with a billion dollar economy that had assholes at the top, assholes that did an exceptional job of hiding the fact that they were assholes.

But in the end, when the guys at the very top of the ladder are actively concealing criminal conduct, no amount of oversight is going to be able to fix it because who executes on it? There's always someone at the top of any organizational structure that's capable of bringing that structure to its knees. Unfortunately for Penn State - those men did just that in this instance.

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. They did what every single major University in the country does. They also had the misfortune of a very insular group of people at the top of the ladder engaging in unacceptable conduct.

[Mr. Laz]

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

:facepalm:

[jspchief]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

When Johnny QB takes illegal benefits, the entire program gets punished, while Johnny cashes his NFL checks.

The AD and head coach covered up/ turned a blind eye to molestation, likely for the sake of the football program. Commiting crimes for the program isn't an NCAA issue?

[-King-]

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

Where the hell does it end? Penn State isn't a monolith, it's an organization that is composed of tens of thousands of wholly innocent people that will have their livelihoods irreversably damaged by the decision you want to make. Poor schlubs like the history teacher are going to lose their jobs because this decision will go FAR beyond the football program.

There is no such thing as "Penn State: Collective Institution". There is Penn State, a major state college with a billion dollar economy that had assholes at the top, assholes that did an exceptional job of hiding the fact that they were assholes.

But in the end, when the guys at the very top of the ladder are actively concealing criminal conduct, no amount of oversight is going to be able to fix it because who executes on it? There's always someone at the top of any organizational structure that's capable of bringing that structure to its knees. Unfortunately for Penn State - those men did just that in this instance.

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. They did what every single major University in the country dos. They also had the misfortune of a very insular group of people at the top of the ladder engaging in unacceptable conduct.

Doesn't this logic apply to any big NCAA controversy? You'll always have 99.9999% of individuals who have done nothing wrong but are indirectly punished anyway. You think nobody other than the football team was affected by the SMU death penalty?

If it turned out that Bill Self had been paying off all his recruits since he got to Kansas, you'd want their basketball program punished even though it was just one man that was in the wrong.

If the NCAA isn't going to act on this, why should they act on anything wrong-doing by any other school? Punishing schools will always negatively impact thousands of people. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were negatively impacted when the NCAA took scholarships, titles, and banned USC from bowl games. All because Reggie Bush and OJ mayo were given a house/money.

If the NCAA can punish a school for two players receiving gifts, then they damn well punish a school for 4 high ranking officials covering up child rape.

[vailpass]

This is the most ridiculously overblown case I've ever seen in my entire life the lengths this goes to is ridiculous, insanity, seriously.

Where's this outrage when this happens to normal people. Dudes going to prison for life, Paterno is dead and disgraced what the **** do you people want. Should Kansas City close because of Bob Bordella? How about the Westport Flea Market he had a booth at?

That dude was 10 zillion times sicker than Sandusky on his worst day.

Agreed.

[bevischief]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

I agree with this statement.

[ReynardMuldrake]

So why not just nuke Happy Valley?

Where the hell does it end? Penn State isn't a monolith, it's an organization that is composed of tens of thousands of wholly innocent people that will have their livelihoods irreversably damaged by the decision you want to make. Poor schlubs like the history teacher are going to lose their jobs because this decision will go FAR beyond the football program.

There is no such thing as "Penn State: Collective Institution". There is Penn State, a major state college with a billion dollar economy that had assholes at the top, assholes that did an exceptional job of hiding the fact that they were assholes.

But in the end, when the guys at the very top of the ladder are actively concealing criminal conduct, no amount of oversight is going to be able to fix it because who executes on it? There's always someone at the top of any organizational structure that's capable of bringing that structure to its knees. Unfortunately for Penn State - those men did just that in this instance.

This argument doesn't wash. Just about every person serving time in prison has a family. Should we let some convicted felon go free because his kids are innocent and shouldn't be deprived of a father? Of course not. By that rationale nobody would ever get convicted because you can always find an innocent 3rd party that would be affected.

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. They did what every single major University in the country does. They also had the misfortune of a very insular group of people at the top of the ladder engaging in unacceptable conduct.

So you seriously think Penn State is the victim here? :shake:

[vailpass]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? It's Board of Curators? It's students? It's teachers, athletes, rank and file administrators?

Penn State did what every major state university in the country does - it put a few men at the top of its hierarchy and in positions of authority. Penn State's command/oversight structure is no different than any other school's; it's pretty much standard fare. By all outward appearances for 99.999% of the individuals associated with Penn State, nobody had done anything wrong or had reason to believe they had.

The problem is that the 4 men at the top of that chain lied, deceived and covered up evidence of some extraordinarily heinous acts. One of those men is dead and the other 3 are going to pay dearly for it. Those are the people that need to be punished, not the poor souls that are taking over for them. Not the students, teachers, etc... that had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Penn State has done nothing wrong. Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno did and they will be punished for their conduct. To try to ascribe their conduct to an entire University system and make a decision that will negatively impact thousands of completely innocent parties is the worst kind of mob mentality and nothing more than a witch hunt.

Exactly this. Torches and pitch forks.

[-King-]

This argument doesn't wash. Just about every person serving time in prison has a family. Should we let some convicted felon go free because his kids are innocent and shouldn't be deprived of a father? Of course not. By that rationale nobody would ever get convicted because you can always find an innocent 3rd party that would be affected.


:clap:

[-King-]

Exactly this. Torches and pitch forks.

So should USC have been punished for Reggie Bush's and OJ Mayo's violations? Bush was in his 6th year in the NFL when the punishment was handed down. OJ Mayo was in his 3rd in the NBA.

What about Ohio State being punished for Pryor and Tressels violations when both had left?

[DJ's left nut]

Doesn't this logic apply to any big NCAA controversy? You'll always have 99.9999% of individuals who have done nothing wrong but are indirectly punished anyway. You think nobody other than the football team was affected by the SMU death penalty?

If it turned out that Bill Self had been paying off all his recruits since he got to Kansas, you'd want their basketball program punished even though it was just one man that was in the wrong.

If the NCAA isn't going to act on this, why should they act on anything wrong-doing by any other school? Punishing schools will always negatively impact thousands of people. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were negatively impacted when the NCAA took scholarships, titles, and banned USC from bowl games. All because Reggie Bush and OJ mayo were given a house/money.

If the NCAA can punish a school for two players receiving gifts, then they damn well punish a school for 4 high ranking officials covering up child rape.

No, they can't. The NCAA By-Laws clearly state what they can/cannot punish and if it's not directly related to the interactions with student athletes, it's not under their purview. Now the NCAA could try to make a go of it, but to date nothing like that has ever been done. It would take a very broad interpretation of the NCAA's regulatory authority.

And yes, that logic does apply to most NCAA sanctions - which I think are generally wrong-headed. WTF did stripping USC's wins with Reggie Bush accomplish? And the SMU thing doesn't quite apply either because that truly was a full-system, open disregard of repeated smaller sanctions by the NCAA. It wasn't as though 4 guys at the top made payments and SMU got shut down. Dozens of people within the system did, they were scolded by the NCAA publicly and ignored. SMU's entire system, right up to the board of curators clearly didn't give a shit, so they got the death penalty.

That wasn't the case here - this was 4 guys who operated in secret. And when it came to light Penn State was fully cooperative. They gave information the Freeh that he probably couldn't have gotten to even with a federal subpoena. "Penn State: Collective Institution" made this entire thing possible through being completely transparent with investigators. The University could absolutely have lawyered up, fought its ass off and kept the vilest of details dark.

[Chiefnj2]

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with what Penn State as an entity did here. .

In your view what is Penn State the entity?

I don't think people are asking to shut down the physics department.

[whoman69]

I think the death penalty is a knee jerk reaction. Penn State will have plenty of penalties even if the NCAA doesn't give out any. Their reputation is ruined, rightfully so. They will have millions to pay in lawsuits and will probably lose their ability to be insured. I would be more comfortable with the death penalty for the Catholic church as their covering for pedophiles was more pervasive and over a longer period of times.

[vailpass]

So should USC have been punished for Reggie Bush's and OJ Mayo's violations? Bush was in his 6th year in the NFL when the punishment was handed down. OJ Mayo was in his 3rd in the NBA.

What about Ohio State being punished for Pryor and Tressels violations when both had left?

Huh? Those are football violations.

[Mr. Laz]

I think the death penalty is a knee jerk reaction. Penn State will have plenty of penalties even if the NCAA doesn't give out any. Their reputation is ruined, rightfully so. They will have millions to pay in lawsuits and will probably lose their ability to be insured. I would be more comfortable with the death penalty for the Catholic church as their covering for pedophiles was more pervasive and over a longer period of times.
receiving penalties from elsewhere is irrelevant, the NCAA needs to penalize them

if nothing else, to set a basic standard for moral decency


sadly, i not sure the NCAA has any moral decency left from which to judge.

[Sorter]

LMAO
I guess Joe already did his part

[-King-]

Huh? Those are football violations.

Not entirely.

The NCAA Division I Infractions Appeals Committee has upheld the findings of NCAA violations and associated penalties for the University of Southern California. The case primarily involved agent and amateurism violations for former football student-athlete Reggie Bush and former men’s basketball student-athlete O.J. Mayo.

The findings in this case include a lack of institutional control, impermissible inducements, extra benefits and exceeding coaching staff limits.

Seems like what Penn State did showed a lack of institutional control, don't you agree?

[vailpass]

Not entirely.



Seems like what Penn State did showed a lack of institutional control, don't you agree?

Not at all. This is not the type of institutional control that is within the NCAA purview. There are courts of law that hold jurisdiction here, and that is where justice will be served.

[DJ's left nut]

This argument doesn't wash. Just about every person serving time in prison has a family. Should we let some convicted felon go free because his kids are innocent and shouldn't be deprived of a father? Of course not. By that rationale nobody would ever get convicted because you can always find an innocent 3rd party that would be affected.



So you seriously think Penn State is the victim here? :shake:

Penn State is a non-entity here. It's not a victim, it's not a felon. It's nothing. It's a University that hires individuals and individuals do awful freakin' things. If a high ranking employee at your office murders someone and uses the garage to dismember the body, then 3 other friends of his help him clean up the blood and don't tell anyone - should they shut the business down?

Your analogy is what doesn't wash. Family members of a convicted felon aren't the convicted felon. There's a clear distinction between the party that's committed the wrong (the felon) and his family members. When you punish Penn State, you're not even attempting to draw a distinction.

You're trying to anthropomorphize Penn State here. Penn State isn't a human. It's not a thing. It's not capable of acting independently, as your convicted felon was. As such, it's not an appropriate target for punishment. The people that should be punished are those that were involved in these heinous acts.

The rest of it is just self-righteous moral grandstanding. It's people speaking from raw emotion completely bereft of reason while trying to prove that they hate child molesters more than the other guy. Gee, thanks fellas.

There are CLEAR, defined villains in this matter. There are clearly people who's very freedom needs to be taken away from them because of their behavior. Punish them. Anything beyond that is just shouting and pitchforks for the sake of their own self-indulgence.

[Sorter]

how on Earth can this be classified as not as serious?

It is pretty sad that betting, free tats, selling medals/trophies/NCAA apparel, and SMU are less important than child molestation in the NCAA's eyes.

[Garcia Bronco]

The NCAA could say that by not reporting the incident, per the Clery Act, that Penn state was trying impact recruiting. Either way....the "Death Penalty" isn't an option. It's not something that should ever be done again due to the lasting effect to the school and it's conference memeber schools.

[Lex Luthor]

The death penalty? Of course not.

Hell, they won't even lose a scholarship or a bowl game. It's not like they allowed a booster to buy a meal for a recruit, allowed a player to play who was later ruled ineligible, or had a coach send a bunch to text messages to a recruit.

Those are SERIOUS NCAA VIOLATIONS. All Penn State did was to allow one of its coaches to systematically rape children for several decades. That's not even close to being a a violation that's serious enough for the NCAA to get involved.

[Sorter]

The death penalty? Of course not.

Hell, they won't even lose a scholarship or a bowl game. It's not like they allowed a booster to buy a meal for a recruit, allowed a player to play who was later ruled ineligible, or had a coach send a bunch to text messages to a recruit.

Those are SERIOUS NCAA VIOLATIONS. All Penn State did was to allow one of its coaches to systematically rape children for several decades. That's not even close to being a a violation that's serious enough for the NCAA to get involved.

Yup. However, student-athletes can now have cream cheese on bagels.

[okcchief]

I'm usually not for the death penalty, but in this case I think they should shut it down 5 years as an example. When football becomes more important than the safety of children something should be done. If they report him 14 years ago it's just on one man. Now it's the whole university. In four years they will be the bottom of the Big 10.

[Molitoth]

No. It is not fair to the kids whom have chosen to go to that school.

[Chiefnj2]

You're trying to anthropomorphize Penn State here. Penn State isn't a human. It's not a thing. It's not capable of acting independently, as your convicted felon was. As such, it's not an appropriate target for punishment. The people that should be punished are those that were involved in these heinous acts.

.

The athletic department is an appropriate target for punishment because it was the "thing" that the President, Vice-President, AD, Paterno and police were all trying to "protect". The department meant more than the lives of children.

[Fishpicker]

I voted no. the NCAA shouldn't have anything to do with this. I only hope that the victims are generously compensated. if that just so happens to bankrupt the school, I wouldn't give a care.

[Saulbadguy]

No.

[Bearcat]

Ah, the slippery slope between flushing a football program for a year or two and shutting down a city. Just another debate on ChiefsPlanet. LMAO

[DJ's left nut]

It is pretty sad that betting, free tats, selling medals/trophies/NCAA apparel, and SMU are less important than child molestation in the NCAA's eyes.

That's such a wildly ignorant statement.

It's. Not. Their. Job.

Ask any member of the NCAA and every last one of them will tell you that this is far more abhorrent than tattoos.

Now go ahead and ask a civil judge if he thinks the murderer trial down the hall is more critical to the continuation of polite society than the rent and possession case on their docket that day. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one, but tough shit - you're running the civil docket today, Judge. It's someone else's role to monitor the murder trials.

I swear to God, some people are simply incapable of engaging their brains right now. Even if the NCAA wanted to, there is nothing within their regulatory authority that allows them to punish a college for conduct committed by their employees, even employees associated with athletics, for non-athletic related activities. The NCAA does not have plenary police power here.

[DJ's left nut]

The athletic department is an appropriate target for punishment because it was the "thing" that the President, Vice-President, AD, Paterno and police were all trying to "protect". The department meant more than the lives of children.

The President, Vice-President, AD and Pateron are the appropriate targets.

What is the benefit of going beyond the actual wrong-doers other than to assuage your own egos? What good comes of shuttering the Penn State football program?

[kysirsoze]

If you don't think they should get the "death penalty" because of how unfair it is to the innocents at the school, then you must be against the NCAA "death penalty" altogether. If you think it is something that is sometimes justified, then it obviously applies here.

[DJ's left nut]

I'm usually not for the death penalty, but in this case I think they should shut it down 5 years as an example. When football becomes more important than the safety of children something should be done. If they report him 14 years ago it's just on one man. Now it's the whole university. In four years they will be the bottom of the Big 10.

Do you believe that the average University President needs a reminder that covering up the systematic raping of minor children is bad?

Normal people know this. Good, decent human beings with sound judgment know this. If nothing else, the jail time that all those responsible are going to face is going to be a more than ample reminder to anyone that may consider this a viable way of dealing with a situation like this going forward.

If you're a person that's willing to look the other way when you know this is happening - WTF do you care about your program getting the death penalty? Afterall, you're already risking your own freedom and possibly even the financial survival of your family.

There is absolutely nothing that shutting down Penn State football would accomplish that jailing Spanier, Curley and Schultz won't accomplish on its own.

[Sorter]

That's such a wildly ignorant statement.

It's. Not. Their. Job.

Ask any member of the NCAA and every last one of them will tell you that this is far more abhorrent than tattoos.

Now go ahead and ask a civil judge if he thinks the murderer trial down the hall is more critical to the continuation of polite society than the rent and possession case on their docket that day. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one, but tough shit - you're running the civil docket today, Judge. It's someone else's role to monitor the murder trials.

I swear to God, some people are simply incapable of engaging their brains right now. Even if the NCAA wanted to, there is nothing within their regulatory authority that allows them to punish a college for conduct committed by their employees, even employees associated with athletics, for non-athletic related activities. The NCAA does not have plenary police power here.


Jimmies are rustled...

Kidding. TBF, I was just having a bit of fun. I am aware that the NCAA has no power in this matter and shouldn't. It is a legal issue with our criminal justice system. Personally, the people I've had interactions with that have worked throughout the NCAA are generally good people who would definitely fit what you wrote (the exception being aisle monitors/ushers. pricks). That being said, the NCAA does tend to get its priorities screwy in regards to student athlete benefits and regulations. That is what I was poking fun at sarcastically.

[Mr. Laz]

No. It is not fair to the kids whom have chosen to go to that school.
they wouldn't be shutting down the school ... JUST THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM.

:doh!:

Let's try this another way...

Why in the world should the NCAA or Penn St. University want the PSU football program representing them each time it's on t.v. for a football game? You know the announcers are going to talk about it ... people will think about it.

NFL punishes a player for poorly representing the NFL Brand and the PSU football program should be shut down for a couple years so it doesn't represent the rest of the Penn State University or NCAA football.

it fits perfectly under the jurisdiction of NCAA to use it's rules and penalties to defend the reputation of itself and it's members.

By suspending the PSU football program for a few years, the NCAA is saying 'we do not condone this ... we are not part of this ... we will not allow this"

frankly i don't understand why anyone would want to defend the PSU football program.

because that is ALL we are talking about ... just penalties for FOOTBALL only.

[Mr. Laz]

Do you believe that the average University President needs a reminder that covering up the systematic raping of minor children is bad?
evidently Penn State did ...

[vailpass]

That's such a wildly ignorant statement.

It's. Not. Their. Job.

Ask any member of the NCAA and every last one of them will tell you that this is far more abhorrent than tattoos.

Now go ahead and ask a civil judge if he thinks the murderer trial down the hall is more critical to the continuation of polite society than the rent and possession case on their docket that day. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one, but tough shit - you're running the civil docket today, Judge. It's someone else's role to monitor the murder trials.

I swear to God, some people are simply incapable of engaging their brains right now. Even if the NCAA wanted to, there is nothing within their regulatory authority that allows them to punish a college for conduct committed by their employees, even employees associated with athletics, for non-athletic related activities. The NCAA does not have plenary police power here.

What is so hard for some of you to understand about this?

[Garcia Bronco]

they wouldn't be shutting down the school ... JUST THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM.

:doh!:

Let's try this another way...

Why in the world should the NCAA or Penn St. University want the PSU football program representing them each time it's on t.v. for a football game? You know the announcers are going to talk about it ... people will think about it.

NFL punishes a player for poorly representing the NFL Brand and the PSU football program should be shut down for a couple years so it doesn't represent the rest of the Penn State University or NCAA football.

it fits perfectly under the jurisdiction of NCAA to use it's rules and penalties to defend the reputation of itself and it's members.

By suspending the PSU football program for a few years, the NCAA is saying 'we do not condone this ... we are not part of this ... we will not allow this"

frankly i don't understand why anyone would want to defend the PSU football program.

because that is ALL we are talking about ... just penalties for FOOTBALL only.

I agree. The NCAA couldn't shut down the entire school because they don't own it. I don't even understand how someone would think that's the focal point of the conversation. We're clearly talking about the football program.

[DJ's left nut]

evidently Penn State did ...

No.

Spanier, Shultz, Curley and Paterno did.

You go ahead and let me know when you're willing to let every organization you associate yourself be characterized by any mis-deeds of highly ranked individuals within that organization...oh, and that you're willing to have any of those mis-deeds imparted onto you as well. Afterall, as part of the organization, you've clearly offered a tacit acceptance of the conduct and therefore should be punished.

[ChiefsHawk]

the agruement that they shouldnt punish the program now because none of them had anything to do with it is plain stupid. if that were the case teams would buy off half their recruits because you shouldnt punish the players that didnt do anything wrong therefore no program punishments. their recent recruiting class knew there was a chance of sanctions

[Mr. Laz]

What is so hard for some of you to understand about this?

because it's not true

the NCAA has all the power it needs to limit PSU football as it pertains to the NCAA.

Now if Penn State want to stop being a member of the NCAA then it can do what it wants. Until then the NCAA can penalize them several different way.


Understanding the process
The enforcement staff holds member institutions accountable by seeking out and processing information about possible violations of NCAA rules, giving schools an opportunity to respond and presenting facts to membership-led committees.

The enforcement process strives to be fair to the involved institution, its employees and student-athletes throughout the investigation, charging, hearing and penalty-assessment stages. Fairness to other institutions also is a consideration.

pretty sure that football coaches raping children in the football locker rule would fall under 'violating NCAA rules' of conduct.

[Brock]

pretty sure that football coaches raping children in the football locker rule would fall under 'violating NCAA rules' of conduct.

You're probably wrong to assume that it does.

[Chiefnj2]

What good comes of shuttering the Penn State football program?

It acts as a deterrent to other universities that if anything happens in your athletic department you better do the right thing.

And you can't act like the President, Vice President and AD are just three ordinary university employees.

[Mr. Laz]

No.

Spanier, Shultz, Curley and Paterno did.

You go ahead and let me know when you're willing to let every organization you associate yourself be characterized by any mis-deeds of highly ranked individuals within that organization...oh, and that you're willing to have any of those mis-deeds imparted onto you as well. Afterall, as part of the organization, you've clearly offered a tacit acceptance of the conduct and therefore should be punished.
ok, strawman.

[Mr. Laz]

You're probably wrong to assume that it does.
probably :huh:

[Setsuna]

The football program should be put down to the ground. People who are put out by it will be honored for the sake of the children. Fuck anyone who disagrees.

[DJ's left nut]

the agruement that they shouldnt punish the program now because none of them had anything to do with it is plain stupid. if that were the case teams would buy off half their recruits because you shouldnt punish the players that didnt do anything wrong therefore no program punishments. their recent recruiting class knew there was a chance of sanctions

The argument is that it's not their place.

There's nothing criminal about paying someone to come work for you. If there was no threat of sanctions from the NCAA for buying off players, you're absolutely right - coaches would pay through the nose. That is what perfectly illustrates where the NCAA leaves off, however.

It is illegal to obstruct justice. What prevents coaches and athletic departments from obstructing justice is not the threat of regulation by the NCAA, it's the threat of massive criminal liability. If the NCAA never existed, coaches would still a significant disincentive to condone rape in their lockerrooms - would you agree?

The NCAA is not your parents. It is not God. The NCAA is nothing more than a regulatory body tasked with ensuring the uniform and systematic administration of amateur athletics. It exists to enforce its own rules as they relate to amateur athletes. That is not what we're regulating right here.

There is an avenue for preventing this behavior. It provides a greater deterrent for it than shutting down a football program ever could.

[DJ's left nut]

ok, strawman.

Says the person that refuses to note that individuals acted wrongly here and continues to castigate a monolith that doesn't actually exist.

[DJ's left nut]

It acts as a deterrent to other universities that if anything happens in your athletic department you better do the right thing.

And you can't act like the President, Vice President and AD are just three ordinary university employees.

And again - you don't think the fact that those 3 men are going to prison does that?

What do you think worries Spanier more right now - the loss of his freedom, his financial ruin, or the possibility of damage to the PSU football program?

C'mon - if going to freakin' jail wasn't a deterrent to these guys, the death penalty wouldn't have been.

[vailpass]

Good Lord some of you are letting your emotions blind you to the facts.

[Frazod]

The football program should be put down to the ground. People who are put out by it will be honored for the sake of the children. Fuck anyone who disagrees.

Honored for the sake of the children? Really? What the fuck does that even mean? HEY, I'M GOING TO LIVE IN A BOX NOW BECAUSE MY BOSSES COVERED UP RAPE CRIMES. BUT THE CHILDREN HONOR ME!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

You sound like that stupid twat who thought she wouldn't have to pay her mortgage any more after a black president was elected.

No wonder everybody fucking hates you.

[RaiderH8r]

I agree. The NCAA couldn't shut down the entire school because they don't own it. I don't even understand how someone would think that's the focal point of the conversation. We're clearly talking about the football program.

The state of Pennsylvania should cut off all funding to the school pending the final outcomes of every civil and criminal proceeding related to this fiasco. Let Penn State itself pay for the civil penalties and that'll shut it down right quick. Why should the PA taxpayer foot the bill for Sandusky's fucked up locker room romp?

Penn State needs to go away. Permanently.

[RaiderH8r]

And again - you don't think the fact that those 3 men are going to prison does that?

What do you think worries Spanier more right now - the loss of his freedom, his financial ruin, or the possibility of damage to the PSU football program?

C'mon - if going to freakin' jail wasn't a deterrent to these guys, the death penalty wouldn't have been.

The death penalty just lowers recidivism. :thumb:

[vailpass]

The state of Pennsylvania should cut off all funding to the school pending the final outcomes of every civil and criminal proceeding related to this fiasco. Let Penn State itself pay for the civil penalties and that'll shut it down right quick. Why should the PA taxpayer foot the bill for Sandusky's ****ed up locker room romp?

Penn State needs to go away. Permanently.

What?:LOL:

[Molitoth]

Lets say Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli have been covering up a sexual pred case against Matt Cassel for the past 4 years.

Now, would you be fine with Roger Goodell putting the chiefs down for the next 5 years as a "warning" or "example" to the rest of the NFL?
OR
Would you be ok with the firing of Hunt/Cassel/Pioli and jail time or whatever court sentence they got?

What do you think is more fair to the fanbase and rest of the chiefs organization?
You cannot punish everyone because of a few bad apples.


Take away your hatred for Penn State and treat the situation fairly you pricks.

[RaiderH8r]

What?:LOL:

Let the school survive on tuition and endowments and let all civil penalties be paid from those funds. It may survive but it is unlikely. I know Penn State and Joe Pa are religion but kiddie rape crippled the Catholic church and they've got a lot bigger coffers. Let's see how the Nittany Whiners do.

[DJ's left nut]

Well RaiderH8r just took it to a whole new level of retard.

That's possibly the single least intelligent screed I've ever read. You're absolutely right - 4 people exercised wretched judgment, so thousands should lose their jobs.

Brilliant. Just absolutely fucking brilliant. I disagree with the folks that want the death penalty for the football program. I think they're being rash and wrong-headed, but at least I kinda understand why (even if they're simply factually inaccurate on the boundaries of NCAA regulatory authority).

RadierH8r, on the other hand, is just a goddamn moron.

[RaiderH8r]

Lets say Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli have been covering up a sexual pred case against Matt Cassel for the past 4 years.

Now, would you be fine with Roger Goodell putting the chiefs down for the next 5 years as a "warning" or "example" to the rest of the NFL.... or would you be ok with the court charges against Pioli,Cassel, and Hunt... along with them going bye bye and the team gets to start fresh.

What do you think is more fair to the fanbase and rest of the chiefs organization?

You cannot punish everyone because of a few bad apples.

Yes you can. Happens all the time. F Penn State. There are a thousand programs that can easily take its place. BFD if it goes away. The students can go to a different school. The faculty can teach at a different campus and the players can find a different program. Next man up.

[Saulbadguy]

Baylor's coach tried to cover up a murder....just sayin.

[vailpass]

Yes you can. Happens all the time. F Penn State. There are a thousand programs that can easily take its place. BFD if it goes away. The students can go to a different school. The faculty can teach at a different campus and the players can find a different program. Next man up.

Is there something you want to tell us? Do you need to show us on the doll? Not sure what else could make someone go this full retard.

[Mr. Laz]

Says the person that refuses to note that individuals acted wrongly here and continues to castigate a monolith that doesn't actually exist.
you can't be this dumb

Universities are punished "after the fact" all the time. Just because it happened to a player or a coach that was gone, doesn't mean shit.

from 1998 to 2011, the people representing Penn State University football did knowingly enable and protect a child molester and allow him to continue raping kids ON SCHOOL grounds. This University employee used his position at the school to target,trap and rape young boys in the school showers.

It wasn't just one employee ... it was A CONSPIRACY all the way to the top of the school.

Firing a coach etc doesn't stop a school from getting into trouble when the player or coach has moved on to the NFL or something and it shouldn't stop a penalty for Penn State football. The list of penalties incurred by Universities after the offender(s) have already moved on is almost endless.

Shit ... Calipari has made a living out of cheating and letting the school take the fall as he moves on.

[Molitoth]

Yes you can. Happens all the time. F Penn State. There are a thousand programs that can easily take its place. BFD if it goes away. The students can go to a different school. The faculty can teach at a different campus and the players can find a different program. Next man up.

Wow, you have gone full retard. :banghead:

[Saulbadguy]

you can't be this dumb

Universities are punished "after the fact" all the time. Just because it happened to a player that is already gone or a coach that was gone, doesn't mean shit.

from 1998 to 2011, the people representing Penn State University football did knowingly enable and protect a child molester and allow him to continue raping kids ON SCHOOL grounds. This University employee used his position at the school to target,trap and rape young boys in the school showers.

It wasn't just one employee ... it was A CONSPIRACY all the way to the top of the school.

Firing a coach etc doesn't stop a school from getting into trouble when the player or coach has moved on to the NFL or something and it shouldn't stop a penalty for Penn State football. The list of penalties incurred by Universities after the offender(s) have already moved on is almost endless.

Shit ... Calipari has made a living out of cheating and letting the school take the fall as he moves on.

:spock:

[RaiderH8r]

Well RaiderH8r just took it to a whole new level of retard.

That's possibly the single least intelligent screed I've ever read. You're absolutely right - 4 people exercised wretched judgment, so thousands should lose their jobs.

Brilliant. Just absolutely ****ing brilliant. I disagree with the folks that want the death penalty for the football program. I think they're being rash and wrong-headed, but at least I kinda understand why (even if they're simply factually inaccurate on the boundaries of NCAA regulatory authority).

RadierH8r, on the other hand, is just a goddamn moron.

It's an institution. Let it pay its own civil penalties out of its own coffers. What is so hard to understand? If Penn State has to go away so be it. If you think the civil penalties are too high then that is a different issue but Penn State is not that important that it can't go away.

There are hundreds of public, state institutions and close to 2,000 private institutions in the US. Lots of room for all the chips to land.

[Setsuna]

Honored for the sake of the children? Really? What the **** does that even mean? HEY, I'M GOING TO LIVE IN A BOX NOW BECAUSE MY BOSSES COVERED UP RAPE CRIMES. BUT THE CHILDREN HONOR ME!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

You sound like that stupid twat who thought she wouldn't have to pay her mortgage any more after a black president was elected.

No wonder everybody ****ing hates you.

Dude you just pick out certain things you want and don't address the rest. I gave a solution. 6 months salary to find a job. Don't think you live out of a box with that. After that get another job or file for unemployment. You're just an idiot and have no counter argument.

[Bearcat]

I swear to God, some people are simply incapable of engaging their brains right now. Even if the NCAA wanted to, there is nothing within their regulatory authority that allows them to punish a college for conduct committed by their employees, even employees associated with athletics, for non-athletic related activities. The NCAA does not have plenary police power here.

This statement seems obvious, but after all the dumb analogies, it's almost enlightening. It went on for so long, people want the department flushed until PSU is 100% sure nothing remains from the cover-up, and an example should be made, etc... but, the good ole' boy in the good ole' boy network is gone, and the Department of Education is investigating PSU in regards to the Clery Act. My knee-jerk reaction was to vote yes, but reading the part about the DoE investigation provided the realization (or the 'duh' moment) that it's not in the NCAA's court.

[RaiderH8r]

Is there something you want to tell us? Do you need to show us on the doll? Not sure what else could make someone go this full retard.

The Catholic Church, as an institution, is held accountable for the actions of its few, and rightfully so.

I'm just suggesting turning off the public spigot until this financial mess is cleared up.

The University is welcome to recruit and attract students with whatever means remain at its disposal. Its alumni are free to donate to the University. In all ways, except public financing, the institution will remain as almost 2,000 others, privately funded. It only seems right that if you're concerned about the impact on the "innocent" for the actions of a few then you should extend that concern to the tax payers who should not be funding a dime of civil penalties that result from the actions of Sandusky or the Penn State staff involved in the deed or the cover up. What's the problem with understanding this?

[tk13]

I don't know if they should get the death penalty, but when Baylor went downhill they got the hammer dropped on them. Pretty much all NCAA sanctions hurt innocent people. I don't think they'll get the death penalty, but I wouldn't feel sorry if they got some form of punishment like Baylor did. This is probably one of the most twisted things in the history of American sport. The NCAA certainly isn't a criminal court but an athletic program did drive a massive cover up here.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Frazod]

Dude you just pick out certain things you want and don't address the rest. I gave a solution. 6 months salary to find a job. Don't think you live out of a box with that. After that get another job or file for unemployment. You're just an idiot and have no counter argument.

You're the moron who wants to devastate the economy of a small city over the actions of a handful of scumbags. Six months salary is no solution for people losing jobs they've had for years; people with responsibilities and families to support. And what about the people who make a living providing them services? Fuck them, too, right? The honor of the children will pay their fucking bills when their business fold, right? Dumbass.

And fuck you for the brain cells I lost reading your stupid fucking post. I didn't think it was possible for somebody on this board to be so goddamn dumb that they make Wickedson look smart. Go back to your minimum wage job and living in your mom's basement and leave the grown up conversations to the adults.

[gblowfish]

Reminder of how awesome the Onion is:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/joe-paterno-dies-in-hospital-doctors-promise-to-te,27125/

[vailpass]

The Catholic Church, as an institution, is held accountable for the actions of its few, and rightfully so.

I'm just suggesting turning off the public spigot until this financial mess is cleared up.

The University is welcome to recruit and attract students with whatever means remain at its disposal. Its alumni are free to donate to the University. In all ways, except public financing, the institution will remain as almost 2,000 others, privately funded. It only seems right that if you're concerned about the impact on the "innocent" for the actions of a few then you should extend that concern to the tax payers who should not be funding a dime of civil penalties that result from the actions of Sandusky or the Penn State staff involved in the deed or the cover up. What's the problem with understanding this?

Let's correct an injustice done to some people by committing an injustice on thousands of people.
Brilliant.

[GordonGekko]

Death Penalty for Penn State Football do doubt. I'd go beyond and say that once the penalty time has ended, they are put in Division II and not Division I or whatever the fuck they call it now.

The shame is punishment enough for the rest of the University that no traditional punishment is necessary.

[Frazod]

Let's correct an injustice done to some people by committing an injustice on thousands of people.
Brilliant.

Not sure who wins the Dumb Off here - Setsuna's giving him a serious run for his money.

[BigRedChief]

Joe Schad @schadjoe
NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA Manual.

The NCAA is gutless and won't touch this issue.
Fuck their manual. You know child rape took place on your property, it was reported to you. You heard other reports of child molestation from other kids about the same guy and you did nothing. Gave him a raise and covered it up. Thats a criminal offense. A go to jail for a long time offense. Its not against the manual to report child rape? Do we really have to spell that out?

Their inaction caused children to be molested later by the same animal. They are just as guilty. They deserve the death penalty.

[vailpass]

**** their manual. You know child rape took place on your property, it was reported to you. You heard other reports of child molestation from other kids about the same guy and you did nothing. Gave him a raise and covered it up. Thats a criminal offense. A go to jail for a long time offense. Its not against the manual to report child rape? Do we really have to spell that out?

Their inaction caused children to be molested later by the same animal. They are just as guilty. They deserve the death penalty.

Sure. They should act outside of their charter, just seize authority they don't have. You are correct, it's a criminal offense. There is a venue for that but it isn't the NCAA.
C'mon BRC, you're a smart guy. Think about it.

[BigRedChief]

Sure. They should act outside of their charter, just seize authority they don't have. You are correct, it's a criminal offense. There is a venue for that but it isn't the NCAA.
C'mon BRC, you're a smart guy. Think about it.I dont give a shit about the NCAA. The NCAA are a bunch of hypocrites. They wont do the right thing unless it matches their end game,

This was a criminal act. They covered up the molestation of children so they could continue to profit. How slimy can you be? Our society tolerates a lot of things, forgives a lot of transgressions against us. But, child molestation is a line that if crossed you get no second chance, ever.

This was against the law. They should all be arrested and brought in for questioning and spend the night in jail tonight. let em post bail until the trial.

[vailpass]

I dont give a shit about the NCAA. The NCAA are a bunch of hypocrites. They wont do the right thing unless it matches their end game,

This was a criminal. They covered up the molestation of children so they could continue to profit. How slimy can you be? Our society tolerates a lot of things, forgives a lot of transgressions against us. But, child molestation is a line that if crossed you get no second chance, ever.

This was against the law. They should all be in jail tonight. let em post bail until the trial.

Forgive me, I thought you were appealing to the NCAA to take action.

Is there someone who should be on trial who isn't/wasn't?

[Bearcat]

**** their manual. You know child rape took place on your property, it was reported to you. You heard other reports of child molestation from other kids about the same guy and you did nothing. Gave him a raise and covered it up. Thats a criminal offense. A go to jail for a long time offense. Its not against the manual to report child rape? Do we really have to spell that out?

Their inaction caused children to be molested later by the same animal. They are just as guilty. They deserve the death penalty.

The Department of Education is investigating their lack of compliance with the Clery Act. It's not an athletic issue.

[BigRedChief]

Forgive me, I thought you were appealing to the NCAA to take action.

Is there someone who should be on trial who isn't/wasn't?Every single person who is an employee at Penn State that knew child molestation had taken place and didnt alert the authorities.

If it was my kid I dont know how I would be able to restrain myself from seeking revenge on all involved. It would consume me.

Since it wasnt my kid , I dont want to see vigilante justice. There is a public report out there, The Police would be within their rights to bring those people in for questioning. To hear their side, to see if the report was actually true.

[vailpass]

Every single person who is an employee at Penn State that knew child molestation has taken place and didnt alert the authorities.

If it was my kid I dont know how I would be able to restrain myself from seeking revenge on all involved. It would consume me.

Since it wasnt my kid , I dont want to see vigilante justice. There is a public report out there, The Police would be within their rights to bring those people in for questioning. To hear their side, to see if the report was actually true.

Of course, no question. It was my understanding that this is exactly what has happened.

[Setsuna]

If they violated the Clery Act then people are going to lose jobs anyway because the university itself is going to paying a lot of money for it.

[BigMeatballDave]

If they violated the Clery Act then people are going to lose jobs anyway because the university itself is going to paying a lot of money for it.

Please, they have a $1.7 billion endowment.

[okcchief]

Do you believe that the average University President needs a reminder that covering up the systematic raping of minor children is bad?

Normal people know this. Good, decent human beings with sound judgment know this. If nothing else, the jail time that all those responsible are going to face is going to be a more than ample reminder to anyone that may consider this a viable way of dealing with a situation like this going forward.

If you're a person that's willing to look the other way when you know this is happening - WTF do you care about your program getting the death penalty? Afterall, you're already risking your own freedom and possibly even the financial survival of your family.

There is absolutely nothing that shutting down Penn State football would accomplish that jailing Spanier, Curley and Schultz won't accomplish on its own.

The profits they would lose from not having football would accomplish something. Football is not bigger than life. What went on was beyond fucking evil and happen to protect the precious football program. This isn't petty bullshit. This is covering up a child molester and giving and giving him an unlimited supply of young boys to rape.

[BigMeatballDave]

Shutting down the program makes zero sense.

Just remove those that were involved with it.

[alnorth]

**** their manual. You know child rape took place on your property, it was reported to you. You heard other reports of child molestation from other kids about the same guy and you did nothing. Gave him a raise and covered it up. Thats a criminal offense. A go to jail for a long time offense. Its not against the manual to report child rape? Do we really have to spell that out?

Their inaction caused children to be molested later by the same animal. They are just as guilty. They deserve the death penalty.

Well, the NCAA arguably shouldn't be involved for the same reason that the IRS doesn't go after murderers who have complied with all of their tax obligations.

The Department of Education is a different matter, if they make a big deal about the Clery Act violations, then forget about athletics, Penn State would have far more serious consequences to fear.

[Discuss Thrower]

Death Penalty? Maybe not. But I think a 2 or 3 year bowl ban and removal of any non-conference games scheduled in that span should be in order.

[RaiderH8r]

Let's correct an injustice done to some people by committing an injustice on thousands of people.
Brilliant.

The hell is the problem here? They are free to function free of public coffers while the situation is handled. It isn't like PA State is the only option. Frankly I don't know why anyone would want to be affiliated with kiddie rape state anyway.

Gve me one good reason why public dollars should subsidize the legal fallout from kiddie ****ing.

I am essentially advocating for a stronger and broader application of the Clery Act.

[CaliforniaChief]

I personally think a total ban on football while giving players the right to transfer without losing a year is the right thing to do.

USC got a stiff penalty for lack of institutional control which wasn't even a microcosm of what this is.

I think a 3 year ban minimum is the right thing to do. SMU got 2 for point shaving. I think this is much worse.

[jspchief]

It acts as a deterrent to other universities that if anything happens in your athletic department you better do the right thing.

And you can't act like the President, Vice President and AD are just three ordinary university employees.

Exactly. Make other universities realize that covering this sort of thing up will do more damage to the program than exposing it.

[BigRock]

Hey, look, the people who cried about torch-carrying crazies chasing a poor old coach to his grave are still playing contrarian.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aBTpjkPiVyg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Phobia]

Penn State is a non-entity here. It's not a victim, it's not a felon. It's nothing. It's a University that hires individuals and individuals do awful freakin' things. If a high ranking employee at your office murders someone and uses the garage to dismember the body, then 3 other friends of his help him clean up the blood and don't tell anyone - should they shut the business down?

Your analogy is what doesn't wash. Family members of a convicted felon aren't the convicted felon. There's a clear distinction between the party that's committed the wrong (the felon) and his family members. When you punish Penn State, you're not even attempting to draw a distinction.

You're trying to anthropomorphize

I got this far and then my head exploded.

[WilliamTheIrish]

A) This is outside the NCAA's Jurisdiction.

B) What has Penn State done wrong? ....

Exactly correct. DJ, I appreciate that you look at this in the proper form. I probably don't have the debate skills to form this argument in the proper manner.

The school did nothing wrong. The untouchables at the top committed these acts and for that they will play the heavy price. That's how it's supposed to work.

[Saul Good]

Exactly correct. DJ, I appreciate that you look at this in the proper form. I probably don't have the debate skills to form this argument in the proper manner.

The school did nothing wrong. The untouchables at the top committed these acts and for that they will play the heavy price. That's how it's supposed to work.

It's almost as if the entire institution was lacking control. There's probably a better way to phrase that, but you get the idea.

[Saul Good]

Death Penalty? Maybe not. But I think a 2 or 3 year bowl ban and removal of any non-conference games scheduled in that span should be in order.

There should either be no penalty or the death penalty.

[Reerun_KC]

Please, they have a $1.7 billion endowment.
With that kind of cash. You should be able to cover up these rapes better than they did.

Whether they get penalties or not. The public humiliation factor will be pretty brutal. Best of luck to anyone who plays at rape U.

[chiefzilla1501]

ignorance is not an excuse

as a collective institution, Penn State allowed multiple children to be raped on school grounds. Penn state continued to allow children to be raped by covering up previous rapes and by protecting the ACTIVE rapist.

A Criminal level of Lack of institutional control


If University can get punished for failing to stop coaches from breaking NCAA recruiting rules etc then it can get punished for this x100000000.

The death sentence leads to huge drops in alumni donations which destroys education. This is a state school. Punish lots of pa residents rely on tuition breaks to get a quality education for cheaper.

Don't punish the students. Punish the administrators who lied.

[Mr. Laz]

It's almost as if the entire institution was lacking control. There's probably a better way to phrase that, but you get the idea.
:LOL:

[Discuss Thrower]

There should either be no penalty or the death penalty.

In all seriousness and not trying to entice hate here, but that sounds like the same reasoning jurors had for letting Casey Anthony off the hook.

Look, the NCAA won't ever use the death penalty for what it did: killed one school's program and lead to the demise of an entire conference.

That being said, I don't see why any reason why an organization with enough power to do just that to limit itself in doling out an effective punishment that does the minimum amount of damage to other institutions.

By eliminating any non-cons (which I presume to mean PSU would have to pay any school they've already agreed to use as a tune up game) you knock out some of the school's revenue, and with a postseason ban you make some recruits think a little bit harder on whether or not they go to school at (not so) Happy Valley. Also, a reduction in future scholarship offers might be in order too.

tl;dr: the death penalty goes too far in punishing a lot more than the school's administration, but a severe penalty still needs to be handed down.

[Dylan]

*WARNING, CURSING*

Story sent to me via email: Titled - Fuck Joe Paterno

Powerful storytelling: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/22/1057341/-F-k-Joe-Paterno-Final-Important-Update-please-read-lt-3


Hate the Web site.

[lcarus]

No. It isn't fair to a lot of people who had nothing to do with this. I think they should just punish those involved and move on.

[Dylan]

A good read written anonymously by 'Terry Smyth' Penn State alumni and employee at Penn State. Trying to explain the cult of Joe Paterno:

http://deadspin.com/5925143?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[bigbucks24]

So if I own a car company, and I make faulty cars, and these cars malfunction and kill people, as long as I fire the people that designed the cars, I can't be held accountable? Because suing me and my company would be a burden to innocent people, like the janitor?

[BigRock]

So if I own a car company, and I make faulty cars, and these cars malfunction and kill people, as long as I fire the people that designed the cars, I can't be held accountable? Because suing me and my company would be a burden to innocent people, like the janitor?

Exactly. Why should the whole unversity have to pay? Take it up with the guilty party and only the guilty party.

It's the humane thing to do.

Signed,
Graham Spanier, Tim Curley, and Joe Paterno

[Extra Point]

Fatlock's take: http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/all-male-hierarchy-sexism-played-role-in-penn-state-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky-cover-up-071212 . Nice dig on a former co-worker, the Poz. :shake:

[BryanBusby]

So if I own a car company, and I make faulty cars, and these cars malfunction and kill people, as long as I fire the people that designed the cars, I can't be held accountable? Because suing me and my company would be a burden to innocent people, like the janitor?
That's a great analogy and all, except the people within the program who were responsible for the raping or cover up are being held accountable for it or dead (depending on if you think McQueary should be charged or not) and there's a difference between holding a entity financially reliable for negligent behavior and trying to shut it down. There's also a difference between a for-profit business and a learning institution.

I'm failing to see how taking away opportunities to kids that had nothing to do with this problem would help the situation.

[chiefzilla1501]

ISo if I own a car company, and I make faulty cars, and these cars malfunction and kill people, as long as I fire the people that designed the cars, I can't be held accountable? Because suing me and my company would be a burden to innocent people, like the janitor?

This is a state school. Punish who do you think pays the penalty?

Taxpayers.

You are talking about a decision that is going to result in millions upon millions in alumni donation losses. That affects millions of taxpayers, hundreds of employed faculty, and and thousands of students who rely on in state tuition to get a quality education affordably.. Those responsible should get the hammer thrown down. Psu should get a penalty harsher than USC.. Affected families should get millions in settlements. That's pretty harsh as is.. There are millions affected by a death penalty that had nothing to do with this.

[Predarat]

GAZ

[ChiefRocka]

receiving penalties from elsewhere is irrelevant, the NCAA needs to penalize them

if nothing else, to set a basic standard for moral decency

sadly, i not sure the NCAA has any moral decency left from which to judge.

So I take it you're for ObamaCare??

[DJ's left nut]

So if I own a car company, and I make faulty cars, and these cars malfunction and kill people, as long as I fire the people that designed the cars, I can't be held accountable? Because suing me and my company would be a burden to innocent people, like the janitor?

Penn State is going to get its ass sued off, just as GM would.

GM would not, however, get torched.

Once again - this is a legal matter, not a regulatory one. The NCAA is a regulatory body and to use it in a punitive fashion is simply beyond its scope.

[alpha_omega]

Do you even know who Bob Bordella is? Figured as much.

Dumbass
Spelling errors are pretty common, but you should at least make sure you spell it right before you call someone else a dumbass.

[mlyonsd]

As mentioned earlier if the death penalty isn't deserved here it should be eliminated.

[Chiefnj2]

The NCAA is a regulatory body and to use it in a punitive fashion is simply beyond its scope.

The NCAA hands down punitive punishments all the time. Ask Dez Bryant. Dez didn't break any rule. He lied about not having a meeting that was Legal and he was suspended for an entire season.

[Saulbadguy]

As mentioned earlier if the death penalty isn't deserved here it should be eliminated.

it pretty much has been.

[DJ's left nut]

The NCAA hands down punitive punishments all the time. Ask Dez Bryant. Dez didn't break any rule. He lied about not having a meeting that was Legal and he was suspended for an entire season.

He violated NCAA rules when he lied to investigators.

What Penn State did violated criminal codes and created civil causes of action.

Once again - that's the distinction. The NCAA exists only to enforce its own rules. It wasn't operating in a punitive fashion with Bryant - it was operating in a regulatory fashion. What Bryant did would've simply slid on by but/for the NCAA because nothing he did was inherently illegal. The only way for the NCAA to regulate and deter that conduct was to suspend the player. It wasn't a punitive measure, it was deterrence.

The NCAA regulates things that would be legal but/for the fact that the NCAA says that they're against the rules; a distinction you've already acknowledged. It does not seek to regulate things that are already illegal. it isn't a catch-all body that simply does what it wants with amateur athletics. It's parameters are pretty straightforward.

So many people scream and holler that the NCAA has too much power and now they're all trying to give it even more. People still haven't given me a decent answer as to what exactly shutting down PSU football accomplishes. There is absolutely no deterrent mechanism for other schools there that the criminal and civil sanctions won't already accomplish - let alone the public scorn.

Is anyone really going to argue that an Admin out there is going to let something go unreported now? And if so, that the death penalty for PSU football is going to be what changes his mind? C'mon - you all know better than that. The justice system and the court of public appeals provides a far greater deterrent than the NCAA. The NCAA knows this and that's why it doesn't dick around in legal matters.

This isn't the NCAA's show - it's the legal systems.

[Chiefnj2]

There is absolutely no deterrent mechanism for other schools there that the criminal and civil sanctions won't already accomplish - let alone the public scorn.

.

I completely disagree. Shutting down the football department sends a message to other schools that the penalty for covering things like this up is much more severe than 4-5 people losing, or potentially losing, their jobs. Hell, isn't the VP still on administrative leave? They haven't even fired him yet. Even when the board learned of the allegations they didn't make a full inquiry. They were hoping it would fall to the wayside.

[DJ's left nut]

I completely disagree. Shutting down the football department sends a message to other schools that the penalty for covering things like this up is much more severe than 4-5 people losing, or potentially losing, their jobs. Hell, isn't the VP still on administrative leave? They haven't even fired him yet. Even when the board learned of the allegations they didn't make a full inquiry. They were hoping it would fall to the wayside.

Once again, you think the public scorn that Penn State is facing won't do that trick?

Moreover, you've assigned a motive to the board that even Freeh didn't try to assign. They did discuss it with Spanier and Spanier said there was nothing to it. He then proceeded to manipulate board statements, etc... We don't know why the Board didn't launch a full scale investigation. I'm not willing to say that it was because they were waiting for a federal grand jury investigation to 'fall to the wayside'. Those are intelligent people on that board and they almost certainly know better than that.

The board at Penn State cares a hell of a lot more about the overall reputation of the University than they care about the football program. That reputation has been forever tarnished. I've known a few people on college boards, only 1 on a major University, and those folks are almost purely academicians. They couldn't really care less about football beyond it's PR value. Well their PR couldn't be any lower right now.

I just do not believe for a moment that closing up the football program is going to get someone to do anything that the prison time, civil penalties and massive public scorn isn't already going to accomplish.

[Saulbadguy]

Christ, I can't believe you aren't getting through to them, DJ's left nut. Perhaps you should just join the merry mob.

SHUT 'ER DOWN!!!!!!11

[DJ's left nut]

Fatlock's take: http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/all-male-hierarchy-sexism-played-role-in-penn-state-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky-cover-up-071212 . Nice dig on a former co-worker, the Poz. :shake:

I skimmed by this article earlier. Having read it, I regret giving that disphit the pageview.

He took Raiderh8r's level of retard and built on it.

Hey Jason - what about DeeDee Sandusky, champ? The thousands of women that know their spouses are engaging in inappropriate conduct and say nothing? And I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that 99% of the breathless reporting on this issue has been done by men excoriating Penn State. Dan Wetzel has made his career out of this mess.

I mean the actual anecdotal responses to it are pretty straightforward. It can be factually dispelled so easily that you don't even need to get to the complete lack of internal logic.

Jason Whitlock - you're an idiot.

[Mr. Laz]

As mentioned earlier if the death penalty isn't deserved here it should be eliminated.
truth

no other violation, in the history of the NCAA, is even in the same universe as this one. If the NCAA doesn't step up here then it should just close their doors from sheer shame.

[Saulbadguy]

truth

no other violation, in the history of the NCAA, is even in the same universe as this one. If the NCAA doesn't step up here then it should just close their doors from sheer shame.

:LOL:

[ohiobronco2]

I have a feeling the NCAA will not punish them for this, but will use this as an excuse to look into other matters within the program. They will find something to punish them over.

[Mr. Laz]

I have a feeling the NCAA will not punish them for this, but will use this as an excuse to look into other matters within the program. They will find something to punish them over.
I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.

[Bearcat]

I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.

LMAO

[Saulbadguy]

I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.

Am I the only one who observes how fucking stupid Laz is? How does this moron find air to breath without choking on his pillow at night?

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

http://bwi.rivals.com/

They have a nice start to the 2013 class so far. Surprising.

[chiefzilla1501]

I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.

At the end of the day, Penn State is an educational institution. And a very good one. It is funded by taxpayers. It is a critical means for Pennsylvania's economy to educate young minds and keep jobs in state. It is an employer of thousands upon thousands of employers. And it is a very important means for giving students with lesser means to pay the ability to get a quality education for a good in-state tuition price.

Football is a very important way that Penn State raises money to provide that educational experience. They aren't counting money, as you claim. When the football program is competitive, alumni donations flood through the doors. That's the case with any state football program. When the donations stop coming in, the quality of the education suffers. So they are counting money so that they can pump it back into the educational institution.

You are talking about a measure that is going to cut Penn State from under the knees. It's going to ruin educational opportunities to thousands upon thousands of innocent high school students every year. It's going to cost the taxpayers a fortune. And it's going to hit the state of Pennsylvania below the knees maybe for a good 15-20 years.

This is an argument for why the death penalty shouldn't exist anywhere. Rather than bitch about ridiculous abuses of NCAA power, how about we finally force the NCAA to enforce the rules in place. This would have never happened if the NCAA didn't create a culture among college football programs of secrecy and cheating.

[Mr. Laz]

LMAO
laugh all you want but this isn't ONLY a legal issue for the law.

All the stupid 'too many texts to a recruit' or 'buying a recruit breakfast' NCAA violations is utter tripe compared to this.

If they don't act on a serious situation like this then what good are they?

[chiefzilla1501]

laugh all you want but this isn't ONLY a legal issue for the law.

All the stupid 'too many texts to a recruit' or 'buying a recruit breakfast' NCAA violations is utter tripe compared to this.

If they don't act on a serious situation like this then what good are they?

I don't think anyone's denying that there should be sanctions.

The death penalty has economic repercussions that go WAY beyond football.

[ChiefRocka]

laugh all you want but this isn't ONLY a legal issue for the law.

All the stupid 'too many texts to a recruit' or 'buying a recruit breakfast' NCAA violations is utter tripe compared to this.

If they don't act on a serious situation like this then what good are they?

Your posts on the matter are drivel compared to DJs left nut. I'm beginning to think you got denied admission to the University in which case you should be happy.

[Mr. Laz]

You are talking about a measure that is going to cut Penn State from under the knees.
And they earned every cut

too big/important to punish is complete and utter bullshit ... it leads to wall street/Big bank/toxic dumping/BP oil spill/Big Government level corruptions and problems.

You do want is right and pay the penalty ... make sure it doesn't happen again.

anything less and it just muddies the waters for the future and creates more problems.

PSU is strong enough to survive 2 years of no football ... and they should have to to send a message to everyone else.

[Chiefnj2]

Football is a very important way that Penn State raises money to provide that educational experience.

That there is the problem. The money derived from one program and the reputation of that program was viewed as more important than the lives and well beings of children being brutalized within the confines of the institution.

If Penn State alumni and boosters are really proud of their heritage, they will continue to donate money to the school so that the programs and departments that are innocent can continue to succeed and flourish.

[Mr. Laz]

Your posts on the matter are drivel compared to DJs left nut. I'm beginning to think you got denied admission to the University in which case you should be happy.
whatever douche ... you know nothing about me, so STFU


http://www.smhec.org/PublishingImages/KU%20Logo.jpg

[gblowfish]

PSU is strong enough to survive 2 years of no football ... and they should have to to send a message to everyone else.

I'd give them 14 years of no football. One year for every year they covered up the crime.

[Ace Gunner]

"Should Penn State Get the Death Penalty?"

ABSO - FUCKING - LUTELY

[Mr. Laz]

I'd give them 14 years of no football. One year for every year they covered up the crime.
i can certainly understand the sentiment

I still think completely shutting down a football program the size of PSU for 2 years will send an important and significant message to everyone.

All the civil suits will also continue

[Bearcat]

laugh all you want but this isn't ONLY a legal issue for the law.

All the stupid 'too many texts to a recruit' or 'buying a recruit breakfast' NCAA violations is utter tripe compared to this.

If they don't act on a serious situation like this then what good are they?

Violations regarding recruiting college athletes, betting on collegiate athletics, etc; are collegiate athletic issues that are dealt with by an association for collegiate athletics.

Raping a child is a legal issue... doesn't matter if was the head coach of the football team or the physics professor, it's not an collegiate athletics issue. It's a legal issue. And in this case, it's also a matter of following the Clery Act, which is being investigated by the Department of Education.

No one is arguing the acts are worse than when SMU got the death penalty, but SMU's problems were athletic violations.

If you text an athlete too many times, the cops aren't going to get involved. The NCAA will though, because it's an NCAA rule. Not a legal one.

[Reerun_KC]

Did they or did they not use the Althetic dept people and its image to cover this up?

[chiefzilla1501]

That there is the problem. The money derived from one program and the reputation of that program was viewed as more important than the lives and well beings of children being brutalized within the confines of the institution.

If Penn State alumni and boosters are really proud of their heritage, they will continue to donate money to the school so that the programs and departments that are innocent can continue to succeed and flourish.

In Candyland, this is the way it works.

On Planet Earth, all major D-1 Universities rely heavily on alumni donations that are largely a product of how good the athletic team is.

[Ace Gunner]

The Pennsylvania State University, commonly referred to as Penn State or PSU, is a public research university with campuses and facilities throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, United States. Founded in 1855, the university has a threefold mission of teaching, research, and public service. Its instructional mission[6] includes undergraduate, graduate, professional and continuing education offered through resident instruction and online delivery. Its University Park campus, the flagship campus, lies within the Borough of State College and College Township. The Penn State Dickinson School of Law has facilities located in both Carlisle and State College and the College of Medicine is located in Hershey. Penn State has another 19 commonwealth campuses and 5 special-mission campuses located across the state.[7]

Penn State University is ranked among the top-fifteen public universities nationally[8] and is considered to be one of America's Public Ivy universities, which recognizes top public research universities in the United States.[9][10] Annual enrollment at the University Park campus totals more than 44,000 graduate and undergraduate students, making it one of the largest universities in the United States. It has the world's largest dues-paying alumni association.[11] The university's total enrollment in 2009–10 was approximately 94,300 across its 24 campuses[12] and online through its World Campus.[13]

The university offers more than 160 majors among all its campuses[14] and administers $1,831.1 billion (as of June 30, 2011) in endowment and similar funds.[15] The university's research expenditures exceeded $753 million for the 2009 fiscal year and was ranked 9th among U.S. universities in research income[16] by the National Science Foundation.

Annually, the university hosts the Penn State IFC/Panhellenic Dance Marathon (THON), which is the world's largest student-run philanthropy.[17] The university's athletics teams compete in Division I of the NCAA and are collectively known as the Penn State Nittany Lions. They compete in the Big Ten Conference for most sports.

___________________________________________

I'm pretty sure this U will survive post sandudsky. They should never be allowed to field a football team again, imo.

[chiefzilla1501]

And they earned every cut

too big/important to punish is complete and utter bullshit ... it leads to wall street/Big bank/toxic dumping/BP oil spill/Big Government level corruptions and problems.

You do want is right and pay the penalty ... make sure it doesn't happen again.

anything less and it just muddies the waters for the future and creates more problems.

PSU is strong enough to survive 2 years of no football ... and they should have to to send a message to everyone else.

Who is "they"? Please enlighten me. "They" are going to get the hammer on them. Those who covered it up, there's a special place in hell for them, not to mention the major penalties they'll undoubtedly see as a result. The law is not going to go soft on them. Those responsible are going to get hit hard.

The "they" you are referring to are thousands of innocent students who did not cover this up. The "they" you are referring to are the thousands of faculty, staff, and administrators that rely on Penn State as a job to feed their families. The "they" you are referring to are the millions of Penn State taxpayers who are paying millions in taxes to fund the investigation and aftermath of this whole mess (deserved), and now you're asking them to also pay for the massive financial problems Penn State will incur as a result of sanctions. The "they" you are talking about... you are talking about fucking with an entire state's lifeblood to prove a point, maybe for as long as 20 years. The "they" you are talking about are all non-football PSU athletes -- PSU football pretty much funds all of them. Clean athletes may be stripped of scholarships and forced to transfer schools, even if they love it there.

Who are you trying to stick it to exactly? Because the guys responsible are going to get hammered... hard. The football program is going to take a very long time to recover from this, sanctions or no sanctions. But I suppose you have the ridiculous belief that the entire state of Pennsylvania and students/faculty of the school should be punished, because they were too big of football fans.

[Mr. Laz]

Violations regarding recruiting college athletes, betting on collegiate athletics, etc; are collegiate athletic issues that are dealt with by an association for collegiate athletics.

Raping a child is a legal issue... doesn't matter if was the head coach of the football team or the physics professor, it's not an collegiate athletics issue. It's a legal issue. And in this case, it's also a matter of following the Clery Act, which is being investigated by the Department of Education.

No one is arguing the acts are worse than when SMU got the death penalty, but SMU's problems were athletic violations.

If you text an athlete too many times, the cops aren't going to get involved. The NCAA will though, because it's an NCAA rule. Not a legal one.
texting isn't illegal but raping children is illegal AND against NCAA rules.

At least i would hope that murder,raping,terrorism etc are against NCAA rules.

I would think that most felonious acts are against NCAA rules.

I hope the leaders of the NCAA don't have the same low expectations for their organization as you do.

[Chiefnj2]

In Candyland, this is the way it works.

On Planet Earth, all major D-1 Universities rely heavily on alumni donations that are largely a product of how good the athletic team is.

If your view is that the entire school is just a shell where only football matters and is THE most important thing, then maybe the school should be closed down.

[vailpass]

Grown men that can't separate fact from emotion are pitiable.

[Mr. Laz]

Who is "they"? Please enlighten me. "They" are going to get the hammer on them. Those who covered it up, there's a special place in hell for them, not to mention the major penalties they'll undoubtedly see as a result. The law is not going to go soft on them. Those responsible are going to get hit hard.

The "they" you are referring to are thousands of innocent students who did not cover this up. The "they" you are referring to are the thousands of faculty, staff, and administrators that rely on Penn State as a job to feed their families. The "they" you are referring to are the millions of Penn State taxpayers who are paying millions in taxes to fund the investigation and aftermath of this whole mess (deserved), and now you're asking them to also pay for the massive financial problems Penn State will incur as a result of sanctions. The "they" you are talking about... you are talking about fucking with an entire state's lifeblood to prove a point, maybe for as long as 20 years. The "they" you are talking about are all non-football PSU athletes -- PSU football pretty much funds all of them. Clean athletes may be stripped of scholarships and forced to transfer schools, even if they love it there.

Who are you trying to stick it to exactly? Because the guys responsible are going to get hammered... hard. The football program is going to take a very long time to recover from this, sanctions or no sanctions. But I suppose you have the ridiculous belief that the entire state of Pennsylvania and students/faculty of the school should be punished, because they were too big of football fans.
University President
University Vice President
University Athletic Director
Head Football coach and Demigod

How much of a bigger representation of a University can you possible have?


people are trying to expand the scope to try and weasel out of a penalty.

The football program alone should be penalized. The NCAA should try and reduce collateral damage by allow all football coaches,personal and players out of their contracts and commitments without penalty.

anything else is just an excuse

[Mr. Laz]

Grown men that can't separate fact from emotion are pitiable.
you're right but i have confidence that you'll get better

[Bearcat]

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/bearcat2002/Untitled-3.png

[vailpass]

you're right but i have confidence that you'll get better

Ouch! :D

[Bearcat]

texting isn't illegal but raping children is illegal AND against NCAA rules.

At least i would hope that murder,raping,terrorism etc are against NCAA rules.

I would think that most felonious acts are against NCAA rules.

I hope the leaders of the NCAA don't have the same low expectations for their organization as you do.

Seriously though, it's not against NCAA rules per se, because it's against the law. If you murder someone, your company isn't going to run to HR and look up the 'murder' section of the HR handbook... they're going to turn you over to the police.

My knee-jerk reaction was to vote yes in the poll, but had a 'duh' moment when I realized oh yeah, it has nothing to do with PSU athletes... PSU will be held responsible for the Clery Act.

If you can find an NCAA rule that was broken, post it. It's all on ncaa.org.

[Saulbadguy]

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/bearcat2002/Untitled-3.png

:LOL:

[Saulbadguy]

Grown men that can't separate fact from emotion are pitiable.

vailpass, the voice of reason.

[|Zach|]

Seriously though, it's not against NCAA rules per se, because it's against the law. If you murder someone, your company isn't going to run to HR and look up the 'murder' section of the HR handbook... they're going to turn you over to the police.



This be the reason.

[TimeForWasp]

They should change the school name to State Pen State.

[Mr. Laz]

If you murder someone, your company isn't going to run to HR and look up the 'murder' section of the HR handbook... they're going to turn you over to the police.
If you murder someone, your company is going to turn you over to the police AND FIRE YOU.

Penn state didn't even fire Sandusky, they let him retire as a “valued member of the Penn State football legacy.” They then let Sandusky continue to work through Penn State with his foundation and continue to rape kids.

now the NCAA needs to do what it does and that is issues sanctions against the University itself for allowing such a situation to occur for such a long time.

EVERY KEY person of power at Penn State University contributed to a conspiracy to commit Child molestation.

The NCAA needs to set a real world standard for such a criminal lack of institutional control.

[vailpass]

vailpass, the voice of reason.

Why you gotta' call me names?

[Mr. Laz]

Why you gotta' call me names?
don't get too misty-eyed ... saul would take the side of Satan himself over me.

It's his thing

[vailpass]

don't get too misty-eyed ... saul would take the side of Satan himself over me.

It's his thing

Do I strike you as the misty-eyed type?

[Saulbadguy]

don't get too misty-eyed ... saul would take the side of Satan himself over me.

It's his thing

Satan is obviously brighter than all of us. He's fooled billions in to thinking he actually exists. I don't see why that would be such a stretch to side with him over an absolute fucking moron.

[HemiEd]

Satan is obviously brighter than all of us. He's fooled billions in to thinking he actually exists. I don't see why that would be such a stretch to side with him over an absolute ****ing moron.

But could he play for ND?

[vailpass]

But could he play for ND?

What do his grades look like? Can he play TE?

[Mr. Laz]

Do I strike you as the misty-eyed type?
nope ... not a single 'mist' seen in your general direction

[Saulbadguy]

But could he play for ND?

Now that might be a conflict of interest.

But, it's common knowledge Notre Dame will let anyone (smart or dumb) play for them provided they are good. Hell they even let Jewish kids play at ND. I know, pretty unlikely...

[Mr. Laz]

But could he play for ND?
not with that shitty coach Weis calling the shots


Maybe if they hired Haley

[chiefzilla1501]

University President
University Vice President
University Athletic Director
Head Football coach and Demigod

How much of a bigger representation of a University can you possible have?


people are trying to expand the scope to try and weasel out of a penalty.

The football program alone should be penalized. The NCAA should try and reduce collateral damage by allow all football coaches,personal and players out of their contracts and commitments without penalty.

anything else is just an excuse

And you are ignoring the idea that football drives a significant chunk of funding for Penn State to make it a strong academic institution. It's not just about punishing the football program. It's about cutting the entire university below its knees. You are making the mistake of suggesting this is just about football. This death penalty affects the entire university, the entire state, and the thousands of students who rely on Penn State to give a quality education at in-state rates.

I've talked numerous times about the millions of people affected by this that didn't cover this up or do anything wrong. Punish badly the ones who ****ed this up. Punish the football program. The death penalty unfortunately reaches way beyond that.

[ohiobronco2]

I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.


They gave Ohio State a one year bowl ban. They are the biggest (maybe 2nd to Texas in enrollment) school in the country. USC has been banned for what, 3 years?

[DJ's left nut]

Violations regarding recruiting college athletes, betting on collegiate athletics, etc; are collegiate athletic issues that are dealt with by an association for collegiate athletics.

Raping a child is a legal issue... doesn't matter if was the head coach of the football team or the physics professor, it's not an collegiate athletics issue. It's a legal issue. And in this case, it's also a matter of following the Clery Act, which is being investigated by the Department of Education.

No one is arguing the acts are worse than when SMU got the death penalty, but SMU's problems were athletic violations.

If you text an athlete too many times, the cops aren't going to get involved. The NCAA will though, because it's an NCAA rule. Not a legal one.

You wasted your effort with this post, though I do appreciate it being said in a different voice.

It's clear as day. Even when Baylor got their sanctions, it wasn't for the murder coverup but for the recruiting violations found during the investigation of same (which may very well be exactly what happens to Penn State, as previously suggested).

But it's far easier to just shout "RABBLE!!!", light up your torches and storm city hall.

I ended up in a similar conversation at lunch today and it took about 5 minutes for the 2 staples in a lost debate to come to the forefront: "So were the Nazi SS soldiers not as culpable as Hitler!?!?!" and "I pray it never happens to your children..."

Godwin's law and a mindless 'appeal' to emotion - the foundation of any truly good stream of vengeance fueled drivel.

I'm out of this mess. I've tried to stay as reasonable as possible here and it's clear that there is a group of people that simply has no intention of giving credence to facts or law here. I'm done buying books just to watch them eat the pages.

[DJ's left nut]

Who is "they"? Please enlighten me. "They" are going to get the hammer on them. Those who covered it up, there's a special place in hell for them, not to mention the major penalties they'll undoubtedly see as a result. The law is not going to go soft on them. Those responsible are going to get hit hard.

The "they" you are referring to are thousands of innocent students who did not cover this up. The "they" you are referring to are the thousands of faculty, staff, and administrators that rely on Penn State as a job to feed their families. The "they" you are referring to are the millions of Penn State taxpayers who are paying millions in taxes to fund the investigation and aftermath of this whole mess (deserved), and now you're asking them to also pay for the massive financial problems Penn State will incur as a result of sanctions. The "they" you are talking about... you are talking about fucking with an entire state's lifeblood to prove a point, maybe for as long as 20 years. The "they" you are talking about are all non-football PSU athletes -- PSU football pretty much funds all of them. Clean athletes may be stripped of scholarships and forced to transfer schools, even if they love it there.

Who are you trying to stick it to exactly? Because the guys responsible are going to get hammered... hard. The football program is going to take a very long time to recover from this, sanctions or no sanctions. But I suppose you have the ridiculous belief that the entire state of Pennsylvania and students/faculty of the school should be punished, because they were too big of football fans.

Y'know? Them.

They.

"Penn State: Collective Institution"

He's an idiot.

[Saulbadguy]

They gave Ohio State a one year bowl ban. They are the biggest (maybe 2nd to Texas in enrollment) school in the country. USC has been banned for what, 3 years?

Arizona State is the biggest.

[Saulbadguy]

You wasted your effort with this post, though I do appreciate it being said in a different voice.

It's clear as day. Even when Baylor got their sanctions, it wasn't for the murder coverup but for the recruiting violations found during the investigation of same (which may very well be exactly what happens to Penn State, as previously suggested).

But it's far easier to just shout "RABBLE!!!", light up your torches and storm city hall.

I ended up in a similar conversation at lunch today and it took about 5 minutes for the 2 staples in a lost debate to come to the forefront: "So were the Nazi SS soldiers not as culpable as Hitler!?!?!" and "I pray it never happens to your children..."

Godwin's law and a mindless 'appeal' to emotion - the foundation of any truly good stream of vengeance fueled drivel.

I'm out of this mess. I've tried to stay as reasonable as possible here and it's clear that there is a group of people that simply has no intention of giving credence to facts or law here. I'm done buying books just to watch them eat the pages.

You're just a hater.

[Bearcat]

If you murder someone, your company is going to turn you over to the police AND FIRE YOU.

Penn state didn't even fire Sandusky, they let him retire as a “valued member of the Penn State football legacy.” They then let Sandusky continue to work through Penn State with his foundation and continue to rape kids.

now the NCAA needs to do what it does and that is issues sanctions against the University itself for allowing such a situation to occur for such a long time.

EVERY KEY person of power at Penn State University contributed to a conspiracy to commit Child molestation.

The NCAA needs to set a real world standard for such a criminal lack of institutional control.

And after they fire you, do they shutdown the department you were in?

It's actually a bad analogy, because the coaches and admin are employed by PSU, not the NCAA. PSU, just like any employer, may very well have some umbrella statement against anything that is unlawful as determined by the state of PA and federal law. That's PSU's problem, not the NCAA.

A better analogy might be if you worked for General Mills and murdered someone, the FDA isn't going to do anything about it.


The first sentence in the doc regarding "lack of institutional control" states "In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found..." ...so, it seems like no matter how vague that term is, it still has to fall under NCAA regulations.

[Saulbadguy]

And after they fire you, do they shutdown the department you were in?

It's actually a bad analogy, because the coaches and admin are employed by PSU, not the NCAA. PSU, just like any employer, may very well have some umbrella statement against anything that is unlawful as determined by the state of PA and federal law. That's PSU's problem, not the NCAA.

A better analogy might be if you worked for General Mills and murdered someone, the FDA isn't going to do anything about it.


The first sentence in the doc regarding "lack of institutional control" states "In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found..." ...so, it seems like no matter how vague that term is, it still has to fall under NCAA regulations.
another hater

[Chiefnj2]

The first sentence in the doc regarding "lack of institutional control" states "In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found..." ...so, it seems like no matter how vague that term is, it still has to fall under NCAA regulations.

NCAA bylaw:
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct. Individuals employed by or associated with member
institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics
are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative
one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own
moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be
influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically
placed citizen.

[whoman69]

And after they fire you, do they shutdown the department you were in?

It's actually a bad analogy, because the coaches and admin are employed by PSU, not the NCAA. PSU, just like any employer, may very well have some umbrella statement against anything that is unlawful as determined by the state of PA and federal law. That's PSU's problem, not the NCAA.

A better analogy might be if you worked for General Mills and murdered someone, the FDA isn't going to do anything about it.


The first sentence in the doc regarding "lack of institutional control" states "In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found..." ...so, it seems like no matter how vague that term is, it still has to fall under NCAA regulations.

NCAA bylaw:
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct. Individuals employed by or associated with member
institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics
are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative
one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own
moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be
influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically
placed citizen.

One of the things they look at in NCAA penalties, especially for lack of institutional control is arrest records. Certainly covering up a crime so the university would not look bad has to fall under that category.

I've heard arguments that PSU should not be penalized because all the people involved are gone. Doesn't hold water because Reggie Bush wasn't at USC. The entire program is guilty when things like this are coming to the top.

Heinous as this is, its the first infraction for the school so they will not get the death penalty. The school will also be penalized in other ways not connected to the NCAA. There should be penalities, but the death penalty is a knee jerk reaction.

[RaiderH8r]

I doubt the NCAA has guts to significantly punish a University the size of Penn State over this. It this was about 'Midlevel State University' or something they would be talking all tough and looking to set an example.

With PSU they will hide behind "it's a legal matter for the law" and go back to counting their money like the gigantic pussies they are.

Maybe the will surprise me, but i doubt it.

Sad but true.

Like I said, no public funds until the university has settled all claims and penalties related to this. DJ thinks it is f'd but he's wrong. The taxpayers have no responsibility to subsidize the rape of children. If the university withers and dies so be it. If the alumni hold a pot luck and pay it all off then happy day for Happy Valley. Hope those Nittany dipshits bake some mean brownies. Just leave the kids at home.

[RaiderH8r]

Seriously though, it's not against NCAA rules per se, because it's against the law. If you murder someone, your company isn't going to run to HR and look up the 'murder' section of the HR handbook... they're going to turn you over to the police.

My knee-jerk reaction was to vote yes in the poll, but had a 'duh' moment when I realized oh yeah, it has nothing to do with PSU athletes... PSU will be held responsible for the Clery Act.

If you can find an NCAA rule that was broken, post it. It's all on ncaa.org.

Unless you're Penn State and the crime is ass raping children for 14 years on school property. But yeah, immediately turning criminals in for criminal behavior
Would be the low bar for human decency for the rest of humanity.

[RaiderH8r]

And you are ignoring the idea that football drives a significant chunk of funding for Penn State to make it a strong academic institution. It's not just about punishing the football program. It's about cutting the entire university below its knees. You are making the mistake of suggesting this is just about football. This death penalty affects the entire university, the entire state, and the thousands of students who rely on Penn State to give a quality education at in-state rates.

I've talked numerous times about the millions of people affected by this that didn't cover this up or do anything wrong. Punish badly the ones who ****ed this up. Punish the football program. The death penalty unfortunately reaches way beyond that.

Who gives a rip? Life goes on. Find new jobs. Get new lives. This is JoePa's legacy. The guy who killed Penn State. See how many hoagie shops name subs after that dude.

[Mr. Laz]

NCAA bylaw:
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct. Individuals employed by or associated with member
institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.
well there you go

basic standard morel conduct is a "rule" of most companies and the people in power at Penn State University completely violated pretty much every reasonable definition of that.

The NCAA can penalize Penn State but will they have the guts to?

[stonedstooge]

Anyone know what the reference in the report was about Senior football leaders on the team? Something about them knowing what was happening, but doing nothing about it? ESPN scrolled it last night

[mlyonsd]

well there you go

basic standard morel conduct is a "rule" of most companies and the people in power at Penn State University completely violated pretty much every reasonable definition of that.

The NCAA can penalize Penn State but will they have the guts to?Nope. If it were in a lesser conference maybe. Too much money involved now.

[Mr. Laz]

3 tweets put together

Stephen A Smith ‏@stephenasmith

Just to reiterate, no of us should let go of this Penn State Story. Not until the Death Penalty is issue to their football program and .... Joe Paterno's statue is removed. Let the players transfer immediately. Attach an extra year of eligibility to their careers. Just make sure ... there's no football at Penn State for the foreseeable future. Minimum next five years.

Expand Reply Retweet Favorite

[FloridaMan88]

Penn State's football program absolutely deserves the death penalty.

Jerry Sandusky would have no connection to Penn State and wouldn't have been in a position to commit his crimes WITHOUT his association with and protection by the football progam.

[Rausch]

They knew.

For a loooooooooooooooooong time...

[chiefzilla1501]

3 tweets put together

Stephen A Smith ‏@stephenasmith

Just to reiterate, no of us should let go of this Penn State Story. Not until the Death Penalty is issue to their football program and .... Joe Paterno's statue is removed. Let the players transfer immediately. Attach an extra year of eligibility to their careers. Just make sure ... there's no football at Penn State for the foreseeable future. Minimum next five years.

Expand Reply Retweet Favorite

The death penalty will never happen again.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that the death penalty is not just a hit to the football program, it is a devastating blow to a public education institution. One that Pennsylvania taxpayers pay for. One that employs thousands of faculty members. And one that provides quality education to students, many of which can't afford a private university because it's too expensive.

I've talked about the millions of people affected by a death penalty. And you keep singing the same tune that these people who did nothing illegal, for some reason, deserve it because some assholes abused power. The point is to punish the football program, not to destroy an otherwise terrific educational institution that provides a major public benefit.

I don't understand what point you're trying to prove. The guys responsible are going to get destroyed for this. Good. The guys you're trying to destroy with a death penalty are taxpayers, and innocent faculty members, students, and Pennsylvania residents who rely on the school. Again, please tell me who the "they" is when you say that "they" will learn a lesson from the death penalty?

[Mr. Laz]

The death penalty will never happen again.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that the death penalty is not just a hit to the football program, it is a devastating blow to a public education institution. One that Pennsylvania taxpayers pay for. One that employs thousands of faculty members. And one that provides quality education to students, many of which can't afford a private university because it's too expensive.

I've talked about the millions of people affected by a death penalty. And you keep singing the same tune that these people who did nothing illegal, for some reason, deserve it because some assholes abused power. The point is to punish the football program, not to destroy an otherwise terrific educational institution that provides a major public benefit.

I don't understand what point you're trying to prove. The guys responsible are going to get destroyed for this. Good. The guys you're trying to destroy with a death penalty are taxpayers, and innocent faculty members, students, and Pennsylvania residents who rely on the school. Again, please tell me who the "they" is when you say that "they" will learn a lesson from the death penalty?
you evidently don't understand right,wrong and doing something as a matter of PRINCIPAL.

you're rationalizing and mouthing excuses ... looking for a reason to not do the right thing.

I can find an indirect reason to NEVER PUNISH ANYONE FOR ANYTHING


How can we ever send anyone to jail that has children? The children didn't do anything wrong.

[chiefzilla1501]

you evidently don't understand right,wrong and doing something as a matter of PRINCIPAL.

you're rationalizing and mouthing excuses ... looking for a reason to not do the right thing.

I can find an indirect reason to NEVER PUNISH ANYONE FOR ANYTHING


How can we ever send anyone to jail that has children? The children didn't do anything wrong.

Nice redirect. You're the one dodging the direct question.

The children and parents are going to get a huge settlement. And they deserve every penny of it. The damages are going to cost the University probably in the tens of millions of dollars. The reputation of the school is forever tarnished. Sandusky is going to rot in prison and probably for a long while (I hope they let him live miserably rather than doing the honor of letting him go easy). Joe Paterno's legacy will forever be tarnished and his family, I'm sure, is never going to be the same. Curley, Schultz, and hopefully Spanier too are going to fry... big time for this. And everyone is recommending at least a USC like penalty, where they lose football commitments, lose ability to offer scholarships... basically allowing Penn State to keep a football product, but for about 5 years, having no ability to have a quality football product.

Again, what does the death penalty prove beyond what is already being proven? It's an over reactionary justice measure that punishes a whole bunch of people who have nothing to do with this mess and, worst of all, is completely beyond what needs to be done. Nobody is arguing against these parents and kids getting max settlements. They deserve it. Nobody is arguing against administrators getting sent to a pound-me-in-the-ass prison. They deserve it. Nobody is arguing against penalties against football. They deserve it.

The rational ones are arguing against massive penalties to the state of Pennsylvania, the taxpayers who fund it, and the students/faculty who rely on it. Beyond what is necessary.

[manchambo]

The death penalty will never happen again.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that the death penalty is not just a hit to the football program, it is a devastating blow to a public education institution. One that Pennsylvania taxpayers pay for. One that employs thousands of faculty members. And one that provides quality education to students, many of which can't afford a private university because it's too expensive.

I've talked about the millions of people affected by a death penalty. And you keep singing the same tune that these people who did nothing illegal, for some reason, deserve it because some assholes abused power. The point is to punish the football program, not to destroy an otherwise terrific educational institution that provides a major public benefit.

I don't understand what point you're trying to prove. The guys responsible are going to get destroyed for this. Good. The guys you're trying to destroy with a death penalty are taxpayers, and innocent faculty members, students, and Pennsylvania residents who rely on the school. Again, please tell me who the "they" is when you say that "they" will learn a lesson from the death penalty?

What you're saying would make it impossible to control or punish any organization. If Ford's top executives know that a part they're using will lead to many deaths, the company (and also the individuals) is liable for civil and criminal penalties. The company is liable even though there are many innocent employees and even more innocent stock holders who will suffer as a result. But this has to be the case because, (i) an organization cannot act but through individuals, and hence the individuals' actions are those of the organization, and (ii) an organization would have no incentive to ensure that its agents acted properly if only the individuals were punished. It can't possibly be the case that the top individuals in Penn State Football, acting on behalf of Penn State Football and for the benefit of Penn State Football, can cover up and in some ways facilitate child rape, and no wrongdoing is imputed to Penn State Football. First, the people doing these things were, for all intents and purposes, Penn State Football. Second, if they can just usher those people out with no punishment to the organization, there is no incentive to ensure good behavior by any future agents of Penn State Football.

[chiefzilla1501]

What you're saying would make it impossible to control or punish any organization. If Ford's top executives know that a part they're using will lead to many deaths, the company (and also the individuals) is liable for civil and criminal penalties. The company is liable even though there are many innocent employees and even more innocent stock holders who will suffer as a result. But this has to be the case because, (i) an organization cannot act but through individuals, and hence the individuals' actions are those of the organization, and (ii) an organization would have no incentive to ensure that its agents acted properly if only the individuals were punished. It can't possibly be the case that the top individuals in Penn State Football, acting on behalf of Penn State Football and for the benefit of Penn State Football, can cover up and in some ways facilitate child rape, and no wrongdoing is imputed to Penn State Football. First, the people doing these things were, for all intents and purposes, Penn State Football. Second, if they can just usher those people out with no punishment to the organization, there is no incentive to ensure good behavior by any future agents of Penn State Football.

I don't know how millions of dollars in settlements to victims, forced restructurings, dismissal of all responsible and hopefully civil and criminal charges to those people as well, and a USC-like football suspension... not to mention the massive PR hit, which is going to affect academic and football recruiting for years to come... how does that not constitute punishment? The punishment without the death penalty I imagine is going to be tens of millions of dollars.

If Ford makes faulty cars, you punish them through fines, settlements, and disciplinary action. You're not going to tell them that they're not allowed to make Ford cars anymore for the next 20 years.

[Braincase]

No. All you are doing is punishing those coming after. Those involved have their own judgement to face. I say let 'em play, and let the Penn State fan base think about what has happened every time they play.

[manchambo]

I don't know how millions of dollars in settlements to victims, forced restructurings, dismissal of all responsible and hopefully civil and criminal charges to those people as well, and a USC-like football suspension... not to mention the massive PR hit, which is going to affect academic and football recruiting for years to come... how does that not constitute punishment? The punishment without the death penalty I imagine is going to be tens of millions of dollars.

If Ford makes faulty cars, you punish them through fines, settlements, and disciplinary action. You're not going to tell them that they're not allowed to make Ford cars anymore for the next 20 years.

Technically, none of what you're talking about is punishment. The civil settlements will be restitution, the rest basically self inflicted wounds. To use the Ford example, the company would be subject to massive punitive damage awards, and to criminal penalties. I'm honestly not sure whether the NTSB could "de-list" a company. In the pharmaceutical area, if a company does something truly horrific, the FDA can de-list the company and refuse to accept any future applications to market drugs, essentially the death sentence in that area.

[chiefzilla1501]

Technically, none of what you're talking about is punishment. The civil settlements will be restitution, the rest basically self inflicted wounds. To use the Ford example, the company would be subject to massive punitive damage awards, and to criminal penalties. I'm honestly not sure whether the NTSB could "de-list" a company. In the pharmaceutical area, if a company does something truly horrific, the FDA can de-list the company and refuse to accept any future applications to market drugs, essentially the death sentence in that area.

A USC-like penalty is absolutely a punishment. And that in itself will be an enormous hit to Penn State financially.

And the thing to always remember is, the more you talk about additional financial punishments (which the death penalty is, in an indirect way), you have to consider who pays for it. The taxpayers do. So again... what point is being proven?

[KCBOSS1]

I'm for the death penalty, but not in these situations. IMO the death penalty should not be applied unless it is premeditated murder. At least I don't think the Penn State officials should undergo the death penalty. I do believe that they should serve considerable time. It think that's pretty harsh. Now Sandusky on the other hand, I would vote for the death penalty for that guy and all the like.

[KCBOSS1]

All of his superiors proved to know about the incident should do some serious time and I'm sure they will. But somebody on here said that the program should be shut down. That's ridiculous. Penn State has been a great football college with great fans. Why should folks who have already undergone ridiculous embarrassment over this and will have to deal with the stigma attached for years to come have to lose their program. They need to clean house (including the board of director members who knew), then hire a serious character AD and coaching staff. They need to remove all of the Paterno relics, donate them to his family (who are also going through ridiculous pain), and the country should get behind them to restore this school.

[Mr. Laz]

I'm for the death penalty, but not in these situations.
We are talking about a figurative Death Penalty for Penn State Football.

SMU got sanctions so sever from the NCAA that it limited the program and recruiting dried up, the program sort of 'died'. Thus the nickname 'death penalty'

some people think that that NCAA should do that same thing to PSU.


No television/post season/bowl games etc for PSU football 2/3 years.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I keep seeing things like, "Don't you think the fans, university and town are embarrassed enough already"?

Considering these assholes were holding rallies for Paterno - not the victims of abuse - when the news leaked, I'd say no.

[Dylan]

Breaking News

Penn State's Board of Trustees have decided to leave Joe Paterno's statue standing.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say

Cult town!

[Jerm]

What a fucking disgrace and joke that university is...

[OnTheWarpath15]

I keep seeing things like, "Don't you think the fans, university and town are embarrassed enough already"?

Considering these assholes were holding rallies for Paterno - not the victims of abuse - when the news leaked, I'd say no.

Breaking News

Penn State's Board of Trustees have decided to leave Joe Paterno's statue standing.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say

Cult town!


Like I was saying...

[manchambo]

Breaking News

Penn State's Board of Trustees have decided to leave Joe Paterno's statue standing.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say

Cult town!

You really have to wonder--what would he have to do for them to take it down? Would personally raping a child be sufficient? I'm not sure.

[Dylan]

NCAA needs to sanction Penn State and let every PSU player transfer immediately to another scholarship program.

[chiefzilla1501]

I keep seeing things like, "Don't you think the fans, university and town are embarrassed enough already"?

Considering these assholes were holding rallies for Paterno - not the victims of abuse - when the news leaked, I'd say no.

It's not about whether they are embarrassed. We are talking about stripping away educational opportunities for innocent students and job opportunities for innocent faculty members, losing funding for all athletic programs that are not related to football, and creating an even greater cost for taxpayers.

We're talking about a taxpayer-driven institution with a football program that makes $50M a year, much of which either funds other athletic programs or goes back into the school.

And being a fan of a team or rallying around a scumbag are not crimes. We have to take emotion out of this. Just because you root for the wrong things does not mean the law should punish you for it.

[Dylan]

According to The New York Times, Paterno got a richer contract amid the Sandusky inquiry.


NYT: Paterno Won Sweeter Deal Even as Scandal Played Out
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/joe-paterno-got-richer-contract-amid-jerry-sandusky-inquiry.html?_r=2&hp


According to ABC News, Sandusky will likely receive his $58,898-a-year state pension while in prison. Unreal.

[OnTheWarpath15]

It's not about whether they are embarrassed. We are talking about stripping away educational opportunities for innocent students and job opportunities for innocent faculty members, losing funding for all athletic programs that are not related to football, and creating an even greater cost for taxpayers.

We're talking about a taxpayer-driven institution with a football program that makes $50M a year, much of which either funds other athletic programs or goes back into the school.

And being a fan of a team or rallying around a scumbag are not crimes. We have to take emotion out of this. Just because you root for the wrong things does not mean the law should punish you for it.

Where were you when USC was getting penalized? Ohio State? Or the other 23 D-1 schools that were sanctioned or on probation at one point last season?

No one was concerned about taxpayers and innocent faculty members then.

You can (and should) penalize the PSU football program without giving them the death penalty.

[J Diddy]

NCAA needs to sanction Penn State and let every PSU player transfer immediately to another scholarship program.

Absolutely, thereby screwing a scholarship from another student per every transfer.

[chiefzilla1501]

Where were you when USC was getting penalized? Ohio State? Or the other 23 D-1 schools that were sanctioned or on probation at one point last season?

No one was concerned about taxpayers and innocent faculty members then.

You can (and should) penalize the PSU football program without giving them the death penalty.

Ok, if that's what you're talking about, we're in complete agreement. I don't think there's anyone that disagrees that there should be sanctions. And it would be silly if they were any less than what USC got.

But there are lots of calls for the death penalty, and those are just stupid and way beyond what needs to be done.

[Dylan]

I keep seeing things like, "Don't you think the fans, university and town are embarrassed enough already"?

Considering these assholes were holding rallies for Paterno - not the victims of abuse - when the news leaked, I'd say no.

They can burn and turn over cars, but can't tear down a statue?

Paterno lucked out and died too soon.

People of integrity don't turn a blind eye to child sex abuse – And people who are dead are judged all the time. Just read any history book. They're held accountable for their actions - Where they are judged in the court of public opinion.

[Dylan]

Absolutely, thereby screwing a scholarship from another student per every transfer.

You make a good point. But, I'm sure the NCAA can work out or think of something else to do. By doing nothing, it makes them look like a bunch of crooks. Penn State is f word.

Hopefully, the media keeps the pressure on their ass.

[notorious]

Just Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[WilliamTheIrish]

I don't think they get the death penalty. Otherwise it opens the NCAA up to all sorts of investigations that they left on the table with no sanctions.

However, I see a $1.7b endowment up for grabs. I don't think Penn St can hide that money from the victims.

[RaiderH8r]

I don't think they get the death penalty. Otherwise it opens the NCAA up to all sorts of investigations that they left on the table with no sanctions.

However, I see a $1.7b endowment up for grabs. I don't think Penn St can hide that money from the victims.

Nor should they. That should be the first pot of money open to victims.

[RaiderH8r]

It's not about whether they are embarrassed. We are talking about stripping away educational opportunities for innocent students and job opportunities for innocent faculty members, losing funding for all athletic programs that are not related to football, and creating an even greater cost for taxpayers.

We're talking about a taxpayer-driven institution with a football program that makes $50M a year, much of which either funds other athletic programs or goes back into the school.

And being a fan of a team or rallying around a scumbag are not crimes. We have to take emotion out of this. Just because you root for the wrong things does not mean the law should punish you for it.

Even if PSU went away entirely it isn't the end of education FFS. Get new jobs, go to new schools and curse the names of Sandusky and JoPa.

[chiefzilla1501]

Even if PSU went away entirely it isn't the end of education FFS. Get new jobs, go to new schools and curse the names of Sandusky and JoPa.

:doh!:

[RaiderH8r]

:doh!:

If it were a corporation engaged in this sort of cover up they'd be burned to the ground. Why should PSU be treated any differently?

[chiefzilla1501]

If it were a corporation engaged in this sort of cover up they'd be burned to the ground. Why should PSU be treated any differently?

Because this isn't a corporation. This is an institution with an $8.5B economic impact and the lifeblood of the state of Pennsylvania. It encourages Pennsylvania residents to stay in state, provides affordable tuition to good students, and then turns those students into future employed Americans who usually stay in-state to keep Pennsylvania's economy running. It is a public institution that, if it fails, Pennsylvania residents will have to foot the bill for the $8.5B per year (and beyond) of loss of impact.

The stats are below:
http://econimpact.psu.edu/

So you're telling the state of Pennsylvania that they should suck it up and lose $8.5B? You're telling students that they should just move to a new state or suck it up and pay a higher tuition rate because they were dumb enough to live in a state that funded Penn State? You're going to tell 44,000 faculty members and staff that they should get their walking papers, not because the university folded, but because some overzealous regulator decided they needed to go above and beyond the necessary punishment?

This isn't just a football program that happens to have a school attached to it. This is a critical piece to the Pennsylvania economy.

[BigRock]

Because this isn't a corporation. This is an institution with an $8.5B economic impact and the lifeblood of the state of Pennsylvania. It encourages Pennsylvania residents to stay in state, provides affordable tuition to good students, and then turns those students into future employed Americans who usually stay in-state to keep Pennsylvania's economy running. It is a public institution that, if it fails, Pennsylvania residents will have to foot the bill for the $8.5B per year (and beyond) of loss of impact.

The stats are below:
http://econimpact.psu.edu/

So you're telling the state of Pennsylvania that they should suck it up and lose $8.5B? You're telling students that they should just move to a new state or suck it up and pay a higher tuition rate because they were dumb enough to live in a state that funded Penn State? You're going to tell 44,000 faculty members and staff that they should get their walking papers, not because the university folded, but because some overzealous regulator decided they needed to go above and beyond the necessary punishment?

This isn't just a football program that happens to have a school attached to it. This is a critical piece to the Pennsylvania economy.

We can't do that kind of harm to Penn State football. The sport of football is just too important to the university.

SAVE THE PROGRAM, SAVE THE WORLD.

Signed,
Graham Spanier, Tim Curley, and Joe Paterno

[chiefzilla1501]

We can't do that kind of harm to Penn State football. The sport of football is just too important to the university.

SAVE THE PROGRAM, SAVE THE WORLD.

Signed,
Graham Spanier, Tim Curley, and Joe Paterno

Sadly, there is truth to the statement that it's important (critical, in fact) to the university. It's also critical to the state of Pennsylvania.

And we're all discussing ways to punish the program and those involved without throwing a death blow to the university and laying a big hit to the state of Pennsylvania. It's the reason why the death penalty doesn't happen anymore in sports.

[BigRock]

Sadly, there is truth to the statement that it's important (critical, in fact) to the university.

And do you know what that means? When a football program is critical to the survival of an academic institution? It means that somewhere along the line, things have gone astray.

But by all means, let's figure out a way to make sure we preserve the skewed reality where football rules everything and must be protected. I mean, it's not like that exact same mindset caused this entire situation in the first place.

Wait, what's that? It did? I stand corrected.

[manchambo]

Because this isn't a corporation. This is an institution with an $8.5B economic impact and the lifeblood of the state of Pennsylvania. It encourages Pennsylvania residents to stay in state, provides affordable tuition to good students, and then turns those students into future employed Americans who usually stay in-state to keep Pennsylvania's economy running. It is a public institution that, if it fails, Pennsylvania residents will have to foot the bill for the $8.5B per year (and beyond) of loss of impact.

The stats are below:
http://econimpact.psu.edu/

So you're telling the state of Pennsylvania that they should suck it up and lose $8.5B? You're telling students that they should just move to a new state or suck it up and pay a higher tuition rate because they were dumb enough to live in a state that funded Penn State? You're going to tell 44,000 faculty members and staff that they should get their walking papers, not because the university folded, but because some overzealous regulator decided they needed to go above and beyond the necessary punishment?

This isn't just a football program that happens to have a school attached to it. This is a critical piece to the Pennsylvania economy.

Can we overstate the importance of penn state football any more? Maybe the whole state of Pennsylvania would fail. And if that happened, would the united states be far behind?

Back in reality, there is zero reason to think that losing football for a few years would appreciably affect the well being of the school as a whole. Some reality checks: are there thriving schools without football programs? Of course. Are there thriving schools that have football programs that are lucky to break even or at best turn an insignificant profit? Oh my god yes. In fact that probably describes the majority. Finally, did SMU curl up and die? Of course not.

[chiefzilla1501]

And do you know what that means? When a football program is critical to the survival of an academic institution? It means that somewhere along the line, things have gone astray.

But by all means, let's figure out a way to make sure we preserve the skewed reality where football rules everything and must be protected. I mean, it's not like that exact same mindset caused this entire situation in the first place.

Wait, what's that? It did? I stand corrected.

You're delusional if you don't think football or basketball isn't the critical lifeblood to money that comes in to many major D-1 universities and even to good high school football programs. In most cases, football money funds the entire athletic program, which is a critical piece to enrolling and attracting quality students.

The system may be flawed, but it is what it is. And it benefits nobody to rip the heart out of the chest if you know it's what keeps the body moving.

[chiefzilla1501]

Can we overstate the importance of penn state football any more? Maybe the whole state of Pennsylvania would fail. And if that happened, would the united states be far behind?
You are talking about 44,000 jobs lost. You are talking about 100,00 students per year who will either have to resort for higher tuition or reduced quality of education. You are talking about stripping one of the most critical ways Pennsylvania is able to keep students and good residents in state. You are talking about potentially stripping away scholarships or affordable tuition to a 17-year old student who can't afford a private institution but has worked her ass off her entire life to get straight A's so she can get into Penn State. You are talking about stripping away $8.5B of economic impact. Indirectly, you are talking about taking away good future lawyers, doctors, businesspeople, etc.... And you're not even factoring the massive amounts of help state schools provide to businesses in terms of expertise, research, etc.... Penn State is one of the lifebloods, for example, of the Pennsylvania farming industry. I think it's rather hilarious that people actually think you can take a public university of that magnitude away and think it wouldn't have a devastating economic effect.

Back in reality, there is zero reason to think that losing football for a few years would appreciably affect the well being of the school as a whole. Some reality checks: are there thriving schools without football programs? Of course. Are there thriving schools that have football programs that are lucky to break even or at best turn an insignificant profit? Oh my god yes. In fact that probably describes the majority. Finally, did SMU curl up and die? Of course not.

Penn State is a school that enrolls 100,000 students. It is an extremely expensive school to run. You have to employ the faculty to cover all those students, pay for facilities, and have students that pay the room & board to house them because any reasonable person knows that the further you are from capacity to fill a building, the more your costs go up. Many schools thrive without a competitive program because they have higher tuition rates or else they don't offer quality educational programming. Most schools don't have the challenge of attracting 100,000 students in order to keep the school running. In most cases, they're happy with a few thousand.

More importantly, we know the direct impact. We're talking about $50M in direct losses if you take away their home games. I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars would be lost in alumni donations. You're talking about hundreds of millions dollars lost.

But like you said... no big deal. Most universities have hundreds of millions of dollars in money just lying around to cover it.

[RaiderH8r]

You are talking about 44,000 jobs lost. You are talking about 100,00 students per year who will either have to resort for higher tuition or reduced quality of education. You are talking about stripping one of the most critical ways Pennsylvania is able to keep students and good residents in state. You are talking about potentially stripping away scholarships or affordable tuition to a 17-year old student who can't afford a private institution but has worked her ass off her entire life to get straight A's so she can get into Penn State. You are talking about stripping away $8.5B of economic impact. Indirectly, you are talking about taking away good future lawyers, doctors, businesspeople, etc.... And you're not even factoring the massive amounts of help state schools provide to businesses in terms of expertise, research, etc.... Penn State is one of the lifebloods, for example, of the Pennsylvania farming industry. I think it's rather hilarious that people actually think you can take a public university of that magnitude away and think it wouldn't have a devastating economic effect.



Penn State is a school that enrolls 100,000 students. It is an extremely expensive school to run. You have to employ the faculty to cover all those students, pay for facilities, and have students that pay the room & board to house them because any reasonable person knows that the further you are from capacity to fill a building, the more your costs go up. Many schools thrive without a competitive program because they have higher tuition rates or else they don't offer quality educational programming. Most schools don't have the challenge of attracting 100,000 students in order to keep the school running. In most cases, they're happy with a few thousand.

More importantly, we know the direct impact. We're talking about $50M in direct losses if you take away their home games. I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars would be lost in alumni donations. You're talking about hundreds of millions dollars lost.

But like you said... no big deal. Most universities have hundreds of millions of dollars in money just lying around to cover it.

Let'em dip into that endowment. Let the alumni hold a bake sale. Is it going to hurt? Hell yes. That's the point. This shit happens frequently. Offshore oil production is a hell of a lot larger economic driver to the gulf coast than PSU and nobody blinked when the US unilaterally shut it down for about a year. BFD, life will go on. If there is a void it will be filled. PSU can operate away on endowments and alumni til their tits tickle but be fucked if public dollars get used to pay for the rape and institutional complicity. If the state of PA wants to fund the school I guess that's their prerogative but federal money should be spent shutting down and moving projects out of PSU ahead of cutting all federal money pending the final outcome of the final trial related to this.

[chiefzilla1501]

Let'em dip into that endowment. Let the alumni hold a bake sale. Is it going to hurt? Hell yes. That's the point. This shit happens frequently. Offshore oil production is a hell of a lot larger economic driver to the gulf coast than PSU and nobody blinked when the US unilaterally shut it down for about a year. BFD, life will go on. If there is a void it will be filled. PSU can operate away on endowments and alumni til their tits tickle but be ****ed if public dollars get used to pay for the rape and institutional complicity. If the state of PA wants to fund the school I guess that's their prerogative but federal money should be spent shutting down and moving projects out of PSU ahead of cutting all federal money pending the final outcome of the final trial related to this.

Good points. A few bake sales should cover up hundreds of millions in losses. Alumni donations minus a football program will not only stay the same but increase by hundreds of millions of dollars. That endowment is money sitting on the table to cover hundreds of millions in losses in perpetuity. State of Pennsylvania and federal funding shouldn't be used to fund one of the us's biggest research institutions. Oh, and eliminating penn state will have no visible impact on the economy, the state of Pennsylvania, and the US.

But billions of dollars in losses is a good way to really stick it to penn state. It's a good way to punish all Pennsylvanians who had the stupidity to live in that state. It's a good punishment for all those who had the audacity to have a wrong opinion about their football team. But at least this will teach everyone an expensive lesson.

[Dylan]

In April Sara Ganim, 2008 Penn State graduate and local reporter for The Patriot-News won the Pulitzer Prize for her hard work and coverage in the Sandusky sexual abuse scandal. Well-deserved.

A quote from Sara Ganim:
"I have a police scanner on my nightstand. I fall to sleep and wake up to the morning news. I work 60-hour weeks digging and investigating, chatting up sources, and peeling back layers until I find amazing stories."


Nice piece in Glamour magazine about how Ganim broke the story: Meet the Woman Who Exposed Jerry Sandusky
http://www.glamour.com/inspired/magazine/2012/02/meet-the-woman-who-exposed-jerry-sandusky

[OnTheWarpath15]

And do you know what that means? When a football program is critical to the survival of an academic institution? It means that somewhere along the line, things have gone astray.

But by all means, let's figure out a way to make sure we preserve the skewed reality where football rules everything and must be protected. I mean, it's not like that exact same mindset caused this entire situation in the first place.

Wait, what's that? It did? I stand corrected.

Great post.

[RaiderH8r]

Good points. A few bake sales should cover up hundreds of millions in losses. Alumni donations minus a football program will not only stay the same but increase by hundreds of millions of dollars. That endowment is money sitting on the table to cover hundreds of millions in losses in perpetuity. State of Pennsylvania and federal funding shouldn't be used to fund one of the us's biggest research institutions. Oh, and eliminating penn state will have no visible impact on the economy, the state of Pennsylvania, and the US.

But billions of dollars in losses is a good way to really stick it to penn state. It's a good way to punish all Pennsylvanians who had the stupidity to live in that state. It's a good punishment for all those who had the audacity to have a wrong opinion about their football team. But at least this will teach everyone an expensive lesson.

Penn State- too big to fail so we'll continue ass raping children. Thanks taxpayers.

Maybe Penn State should get it over with and just become a Catholic institution.