Charges unlikely against man who shot robbers

[WV]

Charges unlikely against man who shot robbers (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120716/ARTICLES/120719707/1109/sports?p=1&tc=pg)

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OCALA - The Internet cafe patron who shot and injured two men as they tried to rob the business will likely not face any criminal charges.

“Based on what I have seen and what I know at this time, I don't anticipate filing any charges,” said Bill Gladson of the State Attorney's Office for 5th Judicial Circuit.

Gladson said he has reviewed the security surveillance video from the cafe. While he still awaits final reports from the Marion County Sheriff's Office, he said the shooting appeared justified.

Samuel Williams, 71, who fired the shots, has a concealed weapons permit, according to the Sheriff's Office. Under Florida law, a person is allowed to use deadly force if he or she fears death or serious injury to themselves or others. As long as the person isn't committing a crime and is in a place where he or she has a right to be, they are considered to be acting within the law.

Williams, who lives in Ocala, could not be reached for comment on Monday. But at least one of his 30 fellow patrons at the cafe wants to thank him.

“I think he is wonderful. If he wouldn't have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,” said Mary Beach.

Beach was sitting in with her back to the door Friday night and didn't realize what was happening until she heard shots.

“I heard pop, pop; then pop, pop, pop, all at once,” she said. “In the confusion I never really got to see his (Williams) face.”

Surveillance video of the incident was released on Monday by the Sheriff's Office. It shows two masked men entering the Palms Internet Cafe, 8444 SW State Road 200 in Ocala, just before 10 p.m. Friday. One of the men had a gun.

Williams was seated toward the back of the cafe dressed in a white shirt, shorts and baseball cap.

One of the masked men, identified as Duwayne Henderson, 19, comes in pointing a handgun at customers. The second man, Davis Dawkins, 19, is seen swinging a bat at something off screen, which was later identified as a $1,200 computer screen.

As Henderson turns his back, Williams pulls out a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun, stands from his chair, takes two steps, nearly drops to one knee, and fires two shots at Henderson, who bolts for the front door.

Williams takes several more steps toward the door and continues firing as Henderson and Dawkins fall over one another trying to exit the building. The two eventually run off screen.

Both men were shot by Williams. Their wounds were not life-threatening. Each was arrested hours later and charged with attempted armed robbery with a firearm and felony criminal mischief.

Henderson remained in the Marion County Jail late Monday in lieu of a $31,000 bond. Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

Internet cafes are regulated by the state. They offer sweepstakes entries, which are used to buy time on computer terminals that simulate casino-style games. The operations, which have sprung up around the county and the state, are known to deal in cash.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Somebody picked the wrong cafe to rob! :doh!:

[Sofa King]

Good.

[Molitoth]

.380-caliber


Jesus, did he f*cking miss or something? 3 shots at point blank and the guy gets up and runs out the door??? Maybe they were on PCP? WTF gives?

[Rain Man]

That video is hilarious, watching the two cowardly robbers crawling out the door terrified. I hope the guy gets a medal - he was cool as a cucumber.

[Lex Luthor]

This video is a pretty effective argument for concealed carry.

[Mugalug]

Bad ass. I wonder if the crime rate drops in Fl.

[qabbaan]

Nice work, tough grandpa right there!

Florida has so many people carrying these days, you'd be nuts to try this crap when customers are around.

Even a little .380 can make a difference.

[King_Chief_Fan]

There you have it...Dumberville didn't shoot anyone...charges will be dismessed :)

[Lzen]

Good stuff.

[Dartgod]

There you have it...Dumberville didn't shoot anyone...charges will be dismessed :)

:spock:

Both men were shot by Williams. Their wounds were not life-threatening.

[Rain Man]

If I had to guess, I bet he practiced on the Viet Cong at some point.

[Radar Chief]

Jesus, did he f*cking miss or something? 3 shots at point blank and the guy gets up and runs out the door??? Maybe they were on PCP? WTF gives?

At the end of the article it says both robbers got shot but their wounds are not life threatening. That's a .380 for ya.

[Radar Chief]

If I had to guess, I bet he practiced on the Viet Cong at some point.

He does a good job of keeping his weapon steady will moving forward and continuing to shoot. He's had some training from somewhere.

[mr. tegu]

This video is a pretty effective argument for concealed carry.

What if the robbers had shot back instead of running and numerous people started getting shot? I am not necessarily disagreeing just pointing out that it could have turned out much worst than some robbers taking some money. Especially if the bystander who has the gun is not as well trained as this guy, who clearly looked to know what he was doing and was very brave about it by continually going after them.

[Bowser]

This proves Dumervil did nothing wrong! [/Knowmo]

[Garcia Bronco]

What if the robbers had shot back instead of running and numerous people started getting shot? I am not necessarily disagreeing just pointing out that it could have turned out much worst than some robbers taking some money. Especially if the bystander who has the gun is not as well trained as this guy, who clearly looked to know what he was doing and was very brave about it by continually going after them.

Small price to pay to let the dirtbags of the world know we won't tolerate this kind of crap.

[Dayze]

gun control is hitting what I'm aiming at.
good for that dude.

the anti-gun crowd would love it if the patrons and society were unarmed so everyone would be 'safe'.

[WV]

The only thing he needs to do is upgrade his self defense rounds. A .380 is basically a 9MM short and is a practical self defense caliber if you use the correct ammo.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

His friends said he didn't have a gun on him. That's enough to end the story right???

[Dayze]

when I get my CCW, I''ll use my 9MM Hornady +P until I can get a nice compact .45.

[Fish]

See the way those scared little bitches exited the building after realizing somebody else had a gun and they weren't gonna be a victim?

That's the benefit of concealed carry. Turning thug pieces of shit into bumbling pants-pissing marathon runners in about 2 seconds flat.....

[Kraus]

Sweet! Love when the tables get turned on the thugs. Too bad he couldn't finish them off.

[Radar Chief]

when I get my CCW, I''ll use my 9MM Hornady +P until I can get a nice compact .45.

A .40 S&W is a pretty good compromise round, between a 9mm and .45.
Welder Buddy had a Sigma in a .40 S&W caliber and the Sigma was a bit big for keeping concealed but still I grew a respect for the round.
Just throwing that out there.

[suds79]

What if the robbers had shot back instead of running and numerous people started getting shot? I am not necessarily disagreeing just pointing out that it could have turned out much worst than some robbers taking some money. Especially if the bystander who has the gun is not as well trained as this guy, who clearly looked to know what he was doing and was very brave about it by continually going after them.

They might have done that anyways. Never know.

Glad that guy didn't take the chance to find out. :thumb:

[WV]

when I get my CCW, I''ll use my 9MM Hornady +P until I can get a nice compact .45.

Kimber Ultra Carry?

[RNR]

Too bad the oldtimer was not a better aim~

[Dayze]

A .40 S&W is a pretty good compromise round, between a 9mm and .45.
Welder Buddy had a Sigma in a .40 S&W caliber and the Sigma was a bit big for keeping concealed but still I grew a respect for the round.
Just throwing that out there.

yep; eyeing those too.

[Dayze]

Kimber Ultra Carry?

that's the one I want badly. though not sure I can afford one. at least not right away. maybe in a year or two.

sweet gun man.

[TimeForWasp]

awsome

[Dayze]

that's the one I want badly. though not sure I can afford one. at least not right away. maybe in a year or two.

sweet gun man.

or I could save up for a few years and get a Wilson Combat, Ed Brown or Les Baer. :D

[Radar Chief]

Kimber Ultra Carry?

Rock Island Armory 1911 Compact Officers model.
Similar size to the Kimber Ultra Carry for 1/3 the price. Of course it also doesn’t have the Kimber quality.

[Ming the Merciless]

Guy is a hero

[saphojunkie]

Small price to pay to let the dirtbags of the world know we won't tolerate this kind of crap.

Go fuck yourself. My life is way too high a price to pay to stop someone from stealing $1500.

[Munson]

At the end of the article it says both robbers got shot but their wounds are not life threatening. That's a .380 for ya.

.380 is better than nothing.

I'm sure the guy is considering a caliber upgrade after the criminals ran away after being shot.

[saphojunkie]

.380 is better than nothing.

I'm sure the guy is considering a caliber upgrade after the criminals ran away after being shot.

He kind of looks at the gun after they're gone like, "WTF is wrong with you? You can't put down a guy at point blank range?"

[Ming the Merciless]

Go **** yourself. My life is way too high a price to pay to stop someone from stealing $1500.

So just lay down and let the robbers do what they want?

Stupid...

[Fish]

Go fuck yourself. My life is way too high a price to pay to stop someone from stealing $1500.

I recommend that you stay indoors and avoid all contact with people. It's the only way for poor defenseless scared people to be truly safe...

[saphojunkie]

So just lay down and let the robbers do what they want?

Stupid...

Actually, it's really fucking smart. You can call it a lot of things, but "stupid" isn't one that fits.

[Bwana]

Good, but it's to bad he wasn't using a .44 mag, or something like that. If he would have went all Dirty Harry on their asses, they sure as hell would be running out, they would be taking dirt naps.

[saphojunkie]

I recommend that you stay indoors and avoid all contact with people. It's the only way for poor defenseless scared people to be truly safe...

I'm not defenseless, poor, nor scared.

But I'm not safe, either, and gunfire doesn't improve that situation.

[Ming the Merciless]

Actually, it's really ****ing smart. You can call it a lot of things, but "stupid" isn't one that fits.

Im calling you stupid.

[Ming the Merciless]

I'm not defenseless, poor, nor scared.

But I'm not safe, either, and gunfire doesn't improve that situation.

Yes it did...Didnt you see the video?

[saphojunkie]

I'm calling you stupid.

FYP, genius

[Ming the Merciless]

FYP, genius

I never made the connection between guys who point out spelling/grammar and cowards who recommend not defending themselves and laying down before.

Thanks for the insight.

[Fish]

I'm not defenseless, poor, nor scared.

But I'm not safe, either, and gunfire doesn't improve that situation.

You're not scared, but you don't feel safe? Makes perfect sense. My daughter is the same way sometimes.

[mdchiefsfan]

I'm sorry, if I could carry I would, damn MD laws. There is no way I would lay down and leave my life hanging on a chance the guy will let me go. I'll fight my way out.

[saphojunkie]

Yes it did...Didnt you see the video?

Sure. This time.

Let's play a game.

Exchange of gunfire makes you:

1) More safe all the time.
2) More safe most of the time, Dead occasionally.
3) More safe some of the time, dead the rest of the time.
4) More safe occasionally, dead most of the time.
5) Dead all of the time.

Any answer but #1, and I don't think it's worth it.

[saphojunkie]

I never made the connection between guys who point out spelling/grammar and cowards who recommend not defending themselves and laying down before.

Thanks for the insight.

hahahhahahhahhaha

You really skewered me there. I feel shredded. Really. I'll have to get a gun just to make myself feel like a man again.

[Just Passin' By]

Sure. This time.

Let's play a game.

Exchange of gunfire makes you:

1) More safe all the time.
2) More safe most of the time, Dead occasionally.
3) More safe some of the time, dead the rest of the time.
4) More safe occasionally, dead most of the time.
5) Dead all of the time.

Any answer but #1, and I don't think it's worth it.

You could as the same question about not firing. You're really just playing a perspective game.

[saphojunkie]

You could as the same question about not firing. You're really just playing a perspective game.

Sure. Absolutely.

My complaint is not that the guy has a concealed carry permit, that he takes advantage of his concealed carry permit, or that he took advantage of the concealed handgun he was carrying.

My complaint is the jackass who said that bystanders being shot was a "small price to pay" to send some kind of message to criminals. Because 19 year olds who rob internet cafes are really thinking through the pros and cons.

[Fish]

Sure. This time.

Let's play a game.

Exchange of gunfire makes you:

1) More safe all the time.
2) More safe most of the time, Dead occasionally.
3) More safe some of the time, dead the rest of the time.
4) More safe occasionally, dead most of the time.
5) Dead all of the time.

Any answer but #1, and I don't think it's worth it.

It's a life threatening situation. Sobbing in the fetal position doesn't ensure safety either.

In addition, stories and videos like this actually deter future behavior. Everyone going Cassel at the first sign of force is exactly what the robbers want. That encourages them to do it again when nobody tries to stop it.

[Just Passin' By]

Sure. Absolutely.

My complaint is not that the guy has a concealed carry permit, that he takes advantage of his concealed carry permit, or that he took advantage of the concealed handgun he was carrying.

My complaint is the jackass who said that bystanders being shot was a "small price to pay" to send some kind of message to criminals. Because 19 year olds who rob internet cafes are really thinking through the pros and cons.

You might want to look at a country like England to see what happens when people take your approach. According to a 2010 story, about 7% of the country's murders happened during a robbery, even though legal handgun ownership is all but nonexistent there. That means that the innocent are still getting killed sometimes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/21/murders-drop-home-office-figures

[Iowanian]

What if the robbers had shot back instead of running and numerous people started getting shot? I am not necessarily disagreeing just pointing out that it could have turned out much worst than some robbers taking some money. Especially if the bystander who has the gun is not as well trained as this guy, who clearly looked to know what he was doing and was very brave about it by continually going after them.

Well...what if the robbers had collected wallets and started mashing skulls with the ball bat and shot 5 or 6 people because noone there was armed?


This game is fun.


I know that if No One except the criminal is armed, the ONLY people who are going to be hurt or killed are the innocent.

[Saul Good]

Well...what if the robbers had collected wallets and started mashing skulls with the ball bat and shot 5 or 6 people because noone there was armed?


This game is fun.


I know that if No One except the criminal is armed, the ONLY people who are going to be hurt or killed are the innocent.

Actually, guns are so dangerous that the criminals would shoot themselves by accident thus ending crime.

[Iowanian]

Go **** yourself. My life is way too high a price to pay to stop someone from stealing $1500.

I kindly beg to disagree.

It's not that your life is worth less, it's that I don't think my life and those of my family, friends or fellow citizens in my immediate vicinity aren't worth defending so that you feel safer when the only weapons are in the hands of criminals.


I'll take my chances knowing some of the other good guys are armed, even when I'm not.
If I'm getting shot in a crime, I would prefer it be from a good guy especially if it results in others not being harmed by the asshole.

Not a soul inside that cafe with the exception of the old guy would have ever known he had a gun if the crime hadn't happened.

[saphojunkie]

Actually, guns are so dangerous that the criminals would shoot themselves by accident thus ending crime.

Clearly guns increase safety. After all, the robbers were 100% safe since they were carrying a handgun.

Logic is fun!

[mdchiefsfan]

Clearly guns increase safety. After all, the robbers were 100% safe since they were carrying a handgun.

Logic is fun!

well they certainly couldn't rob the place laying prone sobbing for God, could they?

[Iowanian]

Which group was safer when the criminals were the only ones with weapons drawn?

Which group was safer once the legally armed citizen caused the hasty exit of the armed criminals?

[seclark]

props to the old man that pulled out and fired on these fucks.
points taken away for not having a bigger load to throw at them.
sec

[Iowanian]

Sapho would have just taken out his Angry penis and threatened them with an uncomfortable marital act if they did not immediately holster their weapons and exit the premises, of course, providing they agreed to the aforementioned marital act.


I hope he shot off their boy parts so that they no longer have the ability to further pollute the gene pool.

[RNR]

Which group was safer when the criminals were the only ones with weapons drawn?

Which group was safer once the legally armed citizen caused the hasty exit of the armed criminals?

This junkie clown is just trolling or he is an idiot. The only thing disappointing is the guys aim. Too bad the guy struggled with his grouping~

[saphojunkie]

Which group was safer when the criminals were the only ones with weapons drawn?

Which group was safer once the legally armed citizen caused the hasty exit of the armed criminals?

If they didn't panic and instead returned fire, this is a wildly different discussion. You don't actually think this scenario plays out this way 100% of the time, do you?

Oh, Chiefs Planet. how I love when the subject of gun use is brought up. Let the mass hysteria begin.

What oh what would happen if I calmly said that I think a "well-regulated militia" doesn't refer to a 71 year old sitting in an internet cafe? And that regular citizens opening fire on a robber isn't "necessary for the protection of the state."

I'm sure I'd have 200 planeteers that suddenly all majored in Constitutional Law at Columbia.

The best part is just how convinced you all are, how absolutely certain, in your ideas. As if an alternative theory is PURE ****ING MADNESS.

[Lonewolf Ed]

Sure. This time.

Let's play a game.

Exchange of gunfire makes you:

1) More safe all the time.
2) More safe most of the time, Dead occasionally.
3) More safe some of the time, dead the rest of the time.
4) More safe occasionally, dead most of the time.
5) Dead all of the time.

Any answer but #1, and I don't think it's worth it.

How about this game?

"Criminals with guns and unarmed citizens:" The rules are simple.

Criminals get to do what they want since they have the guns. Citizens get to be robbed, beaten, frightened, or shot, or any combination plus whatever else the criminal wishes at the moment. Survivors get to talk to the cops who show up after the event.

Back in the early 1990s, I worked nights in a liquor store. One night, the store to the west of me was closed, so miscreants came to mine, but I had some customers. They went to the very next one, 2 blocks away. A 14 year old punk shot the man in the chest with a sawed off shotgun. I'd much rather be armed or have someone armed nearby when a criminal pulls that crap. Trusting in the mercy of someone who thinks "Hey, I am going out to rob someone tonight," is not a gamble I care to make.

[saphojunkie]

This junkie clown is just trolling or he is an idiot. The only thing disappointing is the guys aim. Too bad the guy struggled with his grouping~

Becuz anyone who disagrees with me haz to either be trolling or dumb.

i'M tHAT sMART

[saphojunkie]

How about this game?

"Criminals with guns and unarmed citizens:" The rules are simple.

Criminals get to do what they want since they have the guns. Citizens get to be robbed, beaten, frightened, or shot, or any combination plus whatever else the criminal wishes at the moment. Survivors get to talk to the cops who show up after the event.

Back in the early 1990s, I worked nights in a liquor store. One night, the store to the west of me was closed, so miscreants came to mine, but I had some customers. They went to the very next one, 2 blocks away. A 14 year old punk shot the man in the chest with a sawed off shotgun. I'd much rather be armed or have someone armed nearby when a criminal pulls that crap. Trusting in the mercy of someone who thinks "Hey, I am going out to rob someone tonight," is not a gamble I care to make.

Very cool. And six months ago, I was in a car with some friends. When a group of 15 dudes tried to fight us and began throwing bottles at the car, guess what?

No one pulled a gun and started shooting.

Why?

Because we're cowards and pussies who aren't men enough to carry a gun, right?

Wrong.

There were three handguns in the car.

No one drew a gun, because it would have been fucking retarded. But these "Hiyo Silver!" wannabe cowboys think that the easiest solution to crime is pulling out your piece and firing. You've all watched too many movies.

[saphojunkie]

Sapho would have just taken out his Angry penis and threatened them with an uncomfortable marital act if they did not immediately holster their weapons and exit the premises, of course, providing they agreed to the aforementioned marital act.


You've read my bio.

[RNR]

Becuz anyone who disagrees with me haz to either be trolling or dumb.

i'M tHAT sMART

No because you are either trolling or you are an idiot. It appears the latter is the case~

[RNR]

Very cool. And six months ago, I was in a car with some friends. When a group of 15 dudes tried to fight us and began throwing bottles at the car, guess what?

No one pulled a gun and started shooting.

Why?

Because we're cowards and pussies who aren't men enough to carry a gun, right?

Wrong.

There were three handguns in the car.

No one drew a gun, because it would have been ****ing retarded. But these "Hiyo Silver!" wannabe cowboys think that the easiest solution to crime is pulling out your piece and firing. You've all watched too many movies.
So having the ability to drive away from some guys throwing bottles at your car is the same situation right?

[Just Passin' By]

Very cool. And six months ago, I was in a car with some friends. When a group of 15 dudes tried to fight us and began throwing bottles at the car, guess what?

No one pulled a gun and started shooting.

Why?

Because we're cowards and pussies who aren't men enough to carry a gun, right?

Wrong.

There were three handguns in the car.

No one drew a gun, because it would have been ****ing retarded. But these "Hiyo Silver!" wannabe cowboys think that the easiest solution to crime is pulling out your piece and firing. You've all watched too many movies.

Never go full retard.

[Ming the Merciless]

If they didn't panic and instead returned fire, this is a wildly different discussion.



Yes, they would both be dead. It's not like they wouldve spun around, and taken out civilians by the dozen.....

dumb ass

[Ming the Merciless]

Very cool. And six months ago, I was in a car with some friends. When a group of 15 dudes tried to fight us and began throwing bottles at the car, guess what?

No one pulled a gun and started shooting.

Why?



Because throwing bottles at people INSIDE of a car is not deadly force?

Because the car can just drive off?

My god you are a fucking tool.

[Ming the Merciless]

Becuz anyone who disagrees with me haz to either be trolling or dumb.

i'M tHAT sMART

http://www.memecreator.net/futurama-fry/showimage.php/4562/Not-sure-if-troll-Or-just-gay.jpg

[Raiderhater58]

Because throwing bottles at people INSIDE of a car is not deadly force?

Because the car can just drive off?

My god you are a ****ing tool.

LOL my thoughts exactly

[Bump]

The titles of these articles kind of pisses me off. Instead of saying "Charges Unlikely" (which would be the most absurd shit ever if they did press charges), it should say "Hero gets key to the city for doing something awesome."

[Iowanian]

He kind of looks at the gun after they're gone like, "WTF is wrong with you? You can't put down a guy at point blank range?"


You should be glad of that...because it's pretty obvious a point blank shot from a .380 home defense round would just piss you off that you had to squeeze it out like a pimple.

[Iowanian]

And you surely are objective enough to know that all too often, a criminal takes the money and jewelry they desire and then shoot the innocent victims anyway, right?

I'm not uninformed on the topic. I've taken the classes, passed the tests(written and range) and earned my permit to exercise that right as a legal, law abiding citizen.

If they didn't panic and instead returned fire, this is a wildly different discussion. You don't actually think this scenario plays out this way 100% of the time, do you?

Oh, Chiefs Planet. how I love when the subject of gun use is brought up. Let the mass hysteria begin.

What oh what would happen if I calmly said that I think a "well-regulated militia" doesn't refer to a 71 year old sitting in an internet cafe? And that regular citizens opening fire on a robber isn't "necessary for the protection of the state."

I'm sure I'd have 200 planeteers that suddenly all majored in Constitutional Law at Columbia.

The best part is just how convinced you all are, how absolutely certain, in your ideas. As if an alternative theory is PURE ****ING MADNESS.

[WV]

Bottom line....this guy shot some POS would be robbers and everyone inside that Internet Cafe is better off that he did. Hell the robbers may be now as well, perhaps they'll think twice before doing something like this again.

And to Sacco's point, sure it could have gone horribly wrong but it didn't. Hell his drive to work could go horribly wrong a lot quicker than this instance, but I'm not going to quit driving to work anymore than I wouldn't want someone to act just like this man did.

[Lonewolf Ed]

Very cool. And six months ago, I was in a car with some friends. When a group of 15 dudes tried to fight us and began throwing bottles at the car, guess what?

No one pulled a gun and started shooting.

Why?

Because we're cowards and pussies who aren't men enough to carry a gun, right?

Wrong.

There were three handguns in the car.

No one drew a gun, because it would have been ****ing retarded. But these "Hiyo Silver!" wannabe cowboys think that the easiest solution to crime is pulling out your piece and firing. You've all watched too many movies.

Well, there is a difference between throwing a bottle at someone and pointing a gun at someone, don't you think? The would-be-robbers in the video were not hurling bottles or even brandishing knives. You want to take your chances in that situation, be my guest.

[Aries Walker]

1. I give the guy major props for standing up to criminals. The only other guy with position appears to just stand there bewildered. I don't feel too sorry for Punk One and Punk Two.

2. I can't disagree with the decision not to charge him, especially considering Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

3. What concerns me about this is that he escalated a smash-and-grab robbery into a potential short-range, close-quarters, confused, ugly firefight with civilians such as the woman in center frame who have no concept of how to process what's happening.

4. This video is really tailor-made for the gun-rights lobby to argue their case. It's anecdotal evidence, which is a fallacious but popular method for both sides of the gun control debate.

5. I'm inclined to think that, had the Patron not pulled his gun, the Punks would have smashed some monitors, stolen some money, and ran. A lot of the comments on this thread have said the Patron hadn't intervened, the Punks might have started shooting, but there is a big difference between mugging and serial execution. The latter almost never happens.

6. That said, it does seem like it's happening more often than it did 30, 20, even 10 years ago. Whether that's because of 24-hour impulse-driven news lending a whiff of Jesse James-like notoriety to every two-bit gun-toting thug out there, or a growing lack of fear, or desperation caused by poverty and ennui, or all of those, or something else, remains to be seen. I don't think the answer lies in increasingly arming the public.

7. Except that the Patron does look like he's had training. As I type this, I think I could get behind a Civil Defense program, for people (especially current or ex-military or ex-police) to license themselves to respond in moments like this, for which I think the real value is in deterring the next occurrence - that is, Punk Three and Punk Four. Civil Defenders could carry licenses, much like people trained in CPR have licenses, showing they've been through the training and have kept it current. This would be more, in my mind, than a concealed carry permit, because the training would teach them how to react to and handle situations just like this one, which fortunately turned out well.

I've long been a proponent of training the military college students in this way in order to be able to respond to school shootings; I see no problem with extending to the rest of life as well.

Wow, I typed a lot.

[unlurking]

Clearly guns increase safety. After all, the robbers were 100% safe since they were carrying a handgun.

Logic is fun!
That's smart. You really think those 19 year olds had permits?

Dumbass, your response to this story proves the old saying about "only criminals will have guns."

[Fish]

That's what I'm talkin about....

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8885/55640010151030990844371.jpg

[Predarat]

Kill 'em to death next time, old man!

[qabbaan]

When I took the CCW class, the instructor pointed out that often these thugs will turn tail and run at any opposition at all.

Even they don't think their life is worth risking over $50. The whole model is predicated on the assumption that you won't get any opposition. That's why they rob. As long as you don't do a bank or something, you won't get any opposition and it probably won't even be investigated. It's easy money.

In places like Florida where there are a lot of people carrying, thugs are going to figure out that you can't rob when there are other people around. Just like most of the know breaking into an occupied home is a good way to get yourself shot, hopefully they learn that a robbery of an occupied business is a good way to get shot too.

[Frazod]

That's what I'm talkin about....

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8885/55640010151030990844371.jpg

Nice. I'll bet this building has a crime rate of ZERO.

[Saul Good]

Question for saph: Would your opinion on this be different if the old man had instead been a police officer?

[Dayze]

I suspect no. Police would've said "Freeze" and the crooks would've stopped in their tracks while backup arrived to hancuff them.

exactly the same reason if someone breaks into my house, I'll call the police and wait 8--13 minutes for response; they'll be there in time.

[WV]

I suspect no. Police would've said "Freeze" and the crooks would've stopped in their tracks while backup arrived to hancuff them.

exactly the same reason if someone breaks into my house, I'll call the police and wait 8--13 minutes for response; they'll be there in time.

Heh...I think your being funny :hmmm:, but I would call the cops if someone broke in my house too, but it would only be to collect the bodies.

[Otter]

Anyone have the old guys address? I'll send him some Ranger T-Series rounds and encourage him to at least upgrade to a 9mm.

[Dayze]

Heh...I think your being funny :hmmm:, but I would call the cops if someone broke in my house too, but it would only be to collect the bodies.

you are correct. ;)

[Stryker]

Anyone have the old guys address? I'll send him some Ranger T-Series rounds and encourage him to at least upgrade to a 9mm.

That was my thought as well or maybe a .50 cal Baby Eagle. They should have never left that cafe being shot that many times that close.

[Aries Walker]

The amount of people in this thread calling for the violent death of the two stupid teenagers is fairly scary. Was being shot and arrested not enough?

[Radar Chief]

The amount of people in this thread calling for the violent death of the two stupid teenagers is fairly scary. Was being shot and arrested not enough?

I think it’s more like shock that someone could run through several shots like that as if they weren’t even hit.

[Saul Good]

The amount of people in this thread calling for the violent death of the two stupid teenagers is fairly scary. Was being shot and arrested not enough?

I don't think anyone is calling for their execution after the fact. They are simply saying that, when shooting at a criminal, it's best if they die immediately upon being shot so that they can't start returning fire.

[Radar Chief]

I don't think anyone is calling for their execution after the fact. They are simply saying that, when shooting at a criminal, it's best if they die immediately upon being shot so that they can't start returning fire.

Which segues into the story of why Jon Browning invented the M1911 pistol that used the then new .45 ACP ammo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War using the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, found it to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[7] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the late 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[8] The problems prompted the then-Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[8]
Following the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde pistol round effectiveness tests, Colonel John T. Thompson stated that the new pistol "should not be of less than .45 caliber" and would preferably be semi-automatic in operation.[8] This led to the 1906 trials of pistols from six firearms manufacturing companies (namely, Colt, Bergmann, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), Savage Arms Company, Knoble, Webley, and White-Merril.[8]
Of the six designs submitted, three were eliminated early on, leaving only the Savage, Colt, and DWM designs chambered in the new .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge.[8] These three still had issues that needed correction, but only Colt and Savage resubmitted their designs. There is some debate over the reasons for DWM's withdrawal—some say they felt there was bias and that the DWM design was being used primarily as a "whipping boy" for the Savage and Colt pistols,[9] though this does not fit well with the earlier 1900 purchase of the DWM design over the Colt and Steyr entries. In any case, a series of field tests from 1907 to 1911 were held to decide between the Savage and Colt designs.[8] Both designs were improved between each testing over their initial entries, leading up to the final test before adoption.[8]
Among the areas of success for the Colt was a test at the end of 1910 attended by its designer, John Browning. 6,000 rounds were fired from a single pistol over the course of two days. When the gun began to grow hot, it was simply immersed in water to cool it. The Colt gun passed with no reported malfunctions, while the Savage designs had 37.[8]