The Pioli Poll

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I was excited when we hired Pioli. I was apparently an idiot.

What could go wrong? A guy from the front office of the best team in the NFL... executive of the year... a couple Super-Bowl teams he helped build. How was this not a major upgrade over Carl?

Long story short... do you still believe Peeholey can build a winning team or not?

(I know some didn't believe it from the start... geniuses)

*not this shit again*
**stupid thread moron**
***why do you even try to start football threads***
****tl;dr**** Pioli

[AustinChief]

depends on what you mean by "winning team"

In Pioli's defense.. we currently have a VERY talented team that is young as hell. We are one lucky draft away from having no excuses on the talent side of things. (obviously that draft will need a legit QB prospect)

[A Salt Weapon]

I liked the Pioli signing and still do. Give the man a chance. How many years did we put up with Carl before getting rid of him. Pioli has made some errors (Casshole, Haley, Jones, and Carr) but overall is moving us in the right direction.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

depends on what you mean by "winning team"

In Pioli's defense.. we currently have a VERY talented team that is young as hell. We are one lucky draft away from having no excuses on the talent side of things. (obviously that draft will need a legit QB prospect)

A team that wins more than it losses. Playoffs would be a bonus. Super-Bowl... pfft. That's for other teams.

Seriously... a team that is an annual contender.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I liked the Pioli signing and still do. Give the man a chance. How many years did we put up with Carl before getting rid of him. Pioli has made some errors (Casshole, Haley, Jones, and Carr) but overall is moving us in the right direction.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'd like to be on board with you and I will be once we get a real QB. He has improved other positions. He's ignored the most important... or maybe more realistically... he's been blind to his own failure.

[wazu]

I liked the Pioli signing and still do. Give the man a chance. How many years did we put up with Carl before getting rid of him. Pioli has made some errors (Casshole, Haley, Jones, and Carr) but overall is moving us in the right direction.
Posted via Mobile Device

I feel I've given Pioli a chance, even through disagreeing with many key moves. If the Chiefs win a playoff game this year, that chance will be extended by one year.

[Munson]

He's failed at addressing the most important position in football. We aren't winning shit until we get a real QB.

[Bewbies]

Pioli has done a great job. On everything except the QB position, which is BY FAR the most important position on the field.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I feel I've given Pioli a chance, even through disagreeing with many key moves. If the Chiefs win a playoff game this year, that chance will be extended by one year.

This. This is a win now league. Teams can change fates immediately. With the Chiefs being so far under the cap in the past there's been no excuse not to seriously upgrade at QB other than Pioli's stupid pride imo.

If they don't go deep into the playoffs this year then shit can him. How much time do you need to not spend the money you have?

[pr_capone]

Poll fail, not public.

I still think Pioli is going about this the right way, even if he is taking forever and a day. We have talent at every single position of need other than QB (and a little light on DB).

[pimpchief]

I think pioli was the best guy out there. Its been a difficult few years to easily throw a team together. The lockout, new cba, lack of qb protects outside the top 5 picks, a poor 2009 draft pool altogether, lack of legitimate coaching prospects... Etc.

I think we make the playoffs this year, and probably atleast four of the next five years with some wins and maybe a superbowl.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Poll fail, not public.

I still think Pioli is going about this the right way, even if he is taking forever and a day. We have talent at every single position of need other than QB (and a little light on DB).

I don't like public polls, I think it scares some people off. I'd rather have a more realistic outcome.

[pr_capone]

This. This is a win now league. Teams can change fates immediately. With the Chiefs being so far under the cap in the past there's been no excuse not to seriously upgrade at QB other than Pioli's stupid pride imo.

If they don't go deep into the playoffs this year then shit can him. How much time do you need to not spend the money you have?

Hindsight 20/20, I would have loved for KC to have picked up Dalton over Baldwin in the 2011 draft. I don't think they did because of Kasl's stats but hell, I was willing to give Kasl another shot in '11 based on the previous season.

I bet they thought they had 3 years to develop Stanzi and that kept them from pulling the trigger on a high rd QB. Kasl fucked us yet again.

[BigMeatballDave]

He's completely failed at QB.

The roster is pretty good, overall.

You just cannot fail at QB.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Hindsight 20/20, I would have loved for KC to have picked up Dalton over Baldwin in the 2011 draft. I don't think they did because of Kasl's stats but hell, I was willing to give Kasl another shot in '11 based on the previous season.

I bet they thought they had 3 years to develop Stanzi and that kept them from pulling the trigger on a high rd QB. Kasl ****ed us yet again.

I get that. I submit Dave's post #14 as my response.

[pimpchief]

He's done decent at qb given the circumstance.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

He's done decent at qb given the circumstance.

How? Explain.

[DaneMcCloud]

Pioli's failed to draft, develop or acquire not only a franchise QB, but even an average starter or depth.

I have no faith that will change.

[pimpchief]

How? Explain.

Name one qb he could've had better than cassel since he's been here. Detroit was not passing on Stafford, we were not in a position to go qb early after cassel had a solid season, and iron and broke making are not better than cassel no matter what you say.

Wilson was 4 foot nothing and the Seahawks got Brady/brees lucky if he pans out.

[pr_capone]

Name one qb he could've had better than cassel since he's been here. Detroit was not passing on Stafford, we were not in a position to go qb early after cassel had a solid season, and iron and broke making are not better than cassel no matter what you say.

Wilson was 4 foot nothing and the Seahawks got Brady/brees lucky if he pans out.

Andy Dalton

[pimpchief]

Andy Dalton

You must have missed where I said it was hard to justify taking a high qb after cassels probowl season.

[pimpchief]

I would love dalton as a chief though. With Stanton as a backup. That's what I would have done if I were pioli. But I'm not, and Cassel isn't the worst guy he could've Gotten.

[pr_capone]

You must have missed where I said it was hard to justify taking a high qb after cassels probowl season.

You must have missed where the part where I was answering your question.


Name one qb he could've had better than cassel since he's been here.

Here is your one QB. Andy Dalton.

[pimpchief]

You must have missed where the part where I was answering your question.

my question included the fact that we couldn't have had Dalton. It would've been stupid to draft a high qb with cassel coming off a Badass year.

[DaneMcCloud]

Cassel isn't the worst guy he could've Gotten.

Jesus Fuck, are you kidding? The fucking guy is paid $5 million a year and you're making excuses for him?

LMAO

Dumbass.

[DaneMcCloud]

my question included the fact that we couldn't have had Dalton. It would've been stupid to draft a high qb with cassel coming off a Badass year.

Badass?

You're a fucking troll.

[pr_capone]

my question included the fact that we couldn't have had Dalton. It would've been stupid to draft a high qb with cassel coming off a Badass year.

First... Mark only made the probowl as an alternate to an alternate. Second... bad ass???

3,100 yards passing in a season and 27TD does not make a bad ass. He was another 1k yards and another 10TD shy before he got into bad ass territory. He was good and that is the kindest praise he deserves for 2010.

[DaneMcCloud]

First... Mark only made the probowl as an alternate to an alternate. Second... bad ass???

3,100 yards passing in a season and 27TD does not make a bad ass. He was another 1k yards and another 10TD shy before he got into bad ass territory. He was good and that is the kindest praise he deserves for 2010.

Pimpchief is a troll. It's probably Clay.

[pimpchief]

Badass?

You're a fucking troll.

Um, you're trolling me. He went to the probowl and led us to the playoffs fur the first time in years. That's pretty badass. He threw 27 tds and barely any ints until haley started messing with the offense.

My dad works with the chiefs and he says 2010 was cassels team, not haleys. He's a proven leader, why draft Dalton?

He obviously took a step back and clashed with haley last year, so seating someone like foles would've been justified this year. Not in the 2011 draft though. The priority was finding another big receiving target. He did that. He earns his paycheck.

[DaneMcCloud]

Um, you're trolling me. He went to the probowl and led us to the playoffs fur the first time in years. That's pretty badass. He threw 27 tds and barely any ints until haley started messing with the offense.

My dad works with the chiefs and he says 2010 was cassels team, not haleys. He's a proven leader, why draft Dalton?

He obviously took a step back and clashed with haley last year, so seating someone like foles would've been justified this year. Not in the 2011 draft though. The priority was finding another big receiving target. He did that. He earns his paycheck.

Shut the fuck up. You're either a troll or a mult. Either way, you're a waste of time.

And a liar. Go fuck yourself.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Name one qb he could've had better than cassel since he's been here. Detroit was not passing on Stafford, we were not in a position to go qb early after cassel had a solid season, and iron and broke making are not better than cassel no matter what you say.

Wilson was 4 foot nothing and the Seahawks got Brady/brees lucky if he pans out.

There's like what... 15 new QB's starting in the NFL this year since Pioli took over? Are all of them better? Probably not. Are a few? Yeah.

Sorry for expecting our GM to be good at his job.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

You must have missed where I said it was hard to justify taking a high qb after cassels probowl season.

LMAO

[DaneMcCloud]

There's like what... 15 new QB's starting in the NFL this year since Pioli took over? Are all of them better? probably not. Are a few? Yeah.

Sorry for expecting our GM to be good at his job.

Name the starting QB's that are worse.

[pr_capone]

Name the starting QB's that are worse.

Maybe Gabbert but that is it. Even then, he is young and has potential. Kasl has QB AIDS.

[pimpchief]

Shut the fuck up. You're either a troll or a mult. Either way, you're a waste of time.

And a liar. Go fuck yourself.

How am I a liar? you are a troll.. At my board weed ban someone like you. All I did was stated opinion and facts. May Cassel and the kc chiefs had a badass 2010 campaign.

You didn't have to be a Dick.

[BigMeatballDave]

How am I a liar? you are a troll.. At my board weed ban someone like you. All I did was stated opinion and facts. May Cassel and the kc chiefs had a badass 2010 campaign.

You didn't have to be a Dick.

Your board is gay.

[pimpchief]

LMAO

He had 7 ints that years. That's good.

[pr_capone]

How am I a liar? you are a troll.. At my board weed ban someone like you. All I did was stated opinion and facts. May Cassel and the kc chiefs had a badass 2010 campaign.

You didn't have to be a Dick.

bad ass

http://rjw57.github.com/notes/_images/montoya.jpg

[DaneMcCloud]

Your board is gay.

It's just another Clay mult.

No one is this fucking stupid.

[Munson]

He had 7 ints that years. That's good.

And 3 of those INT's were in the playoff game against the Ravens. That's bad.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Maybe Gabbert but that is it. Even then, he is young and has potential. Kasl has QB AIDS.

Was that question aimed towards me by chance? Doesn't matter. Dane's on ignore and I have no interest in interacting with him.

[pr_capone]

Was that question aimed towards me by chance? Doesn't matter. Dane's on ignore and I have no interest in interacting with him.

It was directed at you, yes.

[pr_capone]

It's just another Clay mult.

No one is this ****ing stupid.

I don't think so. DaFace recently had a big long post about how they are being uber watchful of mults. Not only that, but pimp was around before Wendler lost his DMC TD bet.

He also talks about not being able to make ti to a Chiefs game because his mom didn't take him... probably due to no gasoline. I'm guessing he is just young and Kasl's '10 season was the best he has seen a Chiefs QB play.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

It was directed at you, yes.

Cool. Then I simply don't care what he or Billay or CoMo or GoChiefs have to say or ask... nor do I care what any of them think about me not answering them. They're non entitys.

[el borracho]

Pioli? Done a better than average job with most of the roster. Unfortunately, his biggest failings are at the most important positions. Everything is a waste until we get 1) a legit QB and 2) a legit Head Coach.

Overall, if I am Clark Hunt, I am willing to give Pioli a chance with another QB but that needs to happen asap. Pioli loses all support if the Chiefs walk away from the 2013 draft without a legit QB.

[DaneMcCloud]

Was that question aimed towards me by chance? Doesn't matter. Dane's on ignore and I have no interest in interacting with him.

Dr. Justin Beiber. Same old pussy he's always been.

LMAO

Fucking phony bastard.

[DaneMcCloud]

Cool. Then I simply don't care what he or Billay or CoMo or GoChiefs have to say or ask... nor do I care what any of them think about me not answering them. They're non entitys.


Entitys?

LMAO at you, Beiber.

[el borracho]

Name one qb he could've had better than cassel since he's been here. Detroit was not passing on Stafford, we were not in a position to go qb early after cassel had a solid season, and iron and broke making are not better than cassel no matter what you say.

Wilson was 4 foot nothing and the Seahawks got Brady/brees lucky if he pans out.

without trading: Ryan Mallett
with a trade: Ryan Tannehill

[DaneMcCloud]

without trading: Ryan Mallett
with a trade: Ryan Tannehill

Freeman. Dalton. T.J. Yates.

Possibles: Foles, Wilson, Cousins.

[pr_capone]

Entitys?

LMAO at you, Beiber.

QFDR.JF

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

QFDR.JF

Did I get a giggle for spelling entities wrong? Well fuck me then. I'm the first person to ever spell a word wrong on CP. Please... let me have it.

[pimpchief]

I was at that game. Cassel was but at fault.

Cassel really seems to get a lot if slack around here. I hope he earns and gets his respect this season.

3100 yards want much, but we had an epic running game with lightning Charles and bruiser Jones. They are the yards and cassel led the team in true fashion. He's got this guys, I really think we hit a superbowl coming.

[pimpchief]

I've won the superbowl on allmadden on Madden with cassel give times. Would be awesome if that comes true.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I was at that game. Cassel was but at fault.

Cassel really seems to get a lot if slack around here. I hope he earns and gets his respect this season.

3100 yards want much, but we had an epic running game with lightning Charles and bruiser Jones. They are the yards and cassel led the team in true fashion. He's got this guys, I really think we hit a superbowl coming.

Translation in English? Anyone?

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I've won the superbowl on allmadden on Madden with cassel give times. Would be awesome if that comes true.

Part 2...?

[Munson]

I've won the superbowl on allmadden on Madden with cassel give times. Would be awesome if that comes true.

I'm sure it will happen in real life. ROFL

[el borracho]

I was at that game. Cassel was but at fault.

Cassel really seems to get a lot if slack around here. I hope he earns and gets his respect this season.

3100 yards want much, but we had an epic running game with lightning Charles and bruiser Jones. They are the yards and cassel led the team in true fashion. He's got this guys, I really think we hit a superbowl coming.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DvOHbxBAEN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pr_capone]

I've won the superbowl on allmadden on Madden with cassel give times. Would be awesome if that comes true.

:doh!:

[pimpchief]

I'm sure it will happen in real life. ROFL

I'm not stupid I know sbs r hard to come by. But I think well knock on the sure alot in the next few years thanks to the genius pioli. Might even snag one.

No gm can build a true sb Winner. You can only build a team with a legitimate shot. Pioli has done that.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'm not stupid I know sbs r hard to come by. But I think well knock on the sure alot in the next few years thanks to the genius pioli. Might even snag one.

No gm can build a true sb Winner. You can only build a team with a legitimate shot. Pioli has done that.

You sure?

[pimpchief]

You sure?

Yes I am sure. We have flowers hali Charles all resigned. Excellent core. And we have picked up the best fas available.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Yes I am sure. We have flowers hali Charles all resigned. Excellent core. And we have picked up the best fas available.

I'm shure fleggum Cassel be a proeboweler again thisn year two.

Too dashiop!

[pimpchief]

Is bagging on cassel the cool thing to do around here? He's a hard working guy and he's getting loads better.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Is bagging on cassel the cool thing to do around here? He's a hard working guy and he's getting loads better.

Expecting more than the typical dumbass fan who doesn't know any better than Castle being crap and making excuses for it is the thing around here.

Propoganda swallowing nimrods probably shouldn't bother.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Is bagging on cassel the cool thing to do around here? He's a hard working guy and he's getting loads better.

Loads better than what? The QB of the high school team in town?

[BigMeatballDave]

Is bagging on cassel the cool thing to do around here? He's a hard working guy and he's getting loads better.

So, are you a troll, or just stupid?

[New World Order]

What about Arenas? Baldwin has been disappointing thus far. What about selecting a "solid" 3/4 de with the overall third pick in the entire draft? Would you have drafted Tyson Jackson with the first pick? Because we weren't that far off.

For being looked upon as a "Drafting Genius" he has only drafted 1 all pro. What true impact players has he drafted? Berry might be the only one. I hate to go back to King Carl but most of our impact players are from the previous regime. Flowers, Charles, Carr when he was here, Bowe, Tamba Hali (Though it did take some time for him to make an impact) and DJ. Flowers, Charles, Carr and Bowe made immediate all pro type impacts within their first 2-3 seasons.

He promised qb competition before the season started, well where is it? It is evident Pioli is going down with the ship, the ship that is Matt Cassel, Pioli then arrogantly defends his position on Cassel by providing no competition for him. Any good thing Pioli has done and he has done a few good things is overshadowed by the awful curse that is Matt Cassel.

[pr_capone]

Is bagging on cassel the cool thing to do around here? He's a hard working guy and he's getting loads better.

I will grant you that. He works hard and I believe that he is honestly and truly giving it everything he has. Unfortunately... his best just isn't good enough. He is the boomer grigsby of QBs. All heart but just not enough god given talent.

[BigMeatballDave]

What about Arenas? Baldwin has been disappointing thus far. What about selecting a "solid" 3/4 de with the overall third pick in the entire draft? Would you have drafted Tyson Jackson with the first pick? Because we weren't that far off.

For being looked upon as a "Drafting Genius" he has only drafted 1 all pro. What true impact players has he drafted? Berry might be the only one. I hate to go back to King Carl but most of our impact players are from the previous regime. Flowers, Charles, Carr when he was here, Bowe, Tamba Hali (Though it did take some time for him to make an impact) and DJ. Flowers, Charles, Carr and Bowe made immediate all pro type impacts within their first 2-3 seasons.

He promised qb competition before the season started, well where is it? It is evident Pioli is going down with the ship, the ship that is Matt Cassel, Pioli then arrogantly defends his position on Cassel by providing no competition for him. Any good thing Pioli has done and he has done a few good things is overshadowed by the awful curse that is Matt Cassel.:clap:

[jspchief]

I think ultimately Pioli's legacy in KC will be his inability to deviate from the Patriots. Cassel, Crennel, Daboll, draft picks trying to make the 3-4 work, etc.

He doesn't appear to be capable of doing anything other than trying to replicate what he had in NE as if it's a paint by numbers. That tunnel vision approach will be what ends his stint in KC.

[New World Order]

I think ultimately Pioli's legacy in KC will be his inability to deviate from the Patriots. Cassel, Crennel, Daboll, draft picks trying to make the 3-4 work, etc.

He doesn't appear to be capable of doing anything other than trying to replicate what he had in NE as if it's a paint by numbers. That tunnel vision approach will be what ends his stint in KC.



But how can he deviate from the Pats? He spent his career there getting coffee for Bill Belichick, he doesn't know any other way.

[pimpchief]

So, are you a troll, or just stupid?

How am I a troll our stupid? I support my team.

[BigMeatballDave]

How am I a troll our stupid? I support my team.

Cassel is getting loads better?

That's trolling.

Unless you actually believe it...

[New World Order]

Yes I am sure. We have flowers hali Charles all resigned. Excellent core. And we have picked up the best fas available.



But who drafted those players? It wasn't Pioli

[pimpchief]

But who drafted those players? It wasn't Pioli

But he kept them in town for a decent price tag.

[pimpchief]

Cassel is getting loads better?

That's trolling.

Unless you actually believe it...

He is. He was nails in the first two ps games, and the last one he was hitting guys perfectly and they were dropping balls.

I don't get how complementing our qb is trolling. You have him in you're avatar. Are u trolling? What an I missing here?

[BoneKrusher]

He's failed at addressing the most important position in football. We aren't winning shit until we get a real QB.

my thoughts as well.

[New World Order]

He is. He was nails in the first two ps games, and the last one he was hitting guys perfectly and they were dropping balls.

I don't get how complementing our qb is trolling. You have him in you're avatar. Are u trolling? What an I missing here?



Against the Cardinals and Rams? I think I could go out there and look good against those 2 NFC West losers. He played awful against Seattle, flat pass after flat pass it made me sick. What is going to happen when we run into teams like Baltimore? Is he going to dink and dunk to the flats? We just don't have a quarterback who can make reads and hit Wide Receivers. I think he had the worst completion percentage with throws more than 20 yards. You need big time plays to beat big time teams, and Cassel has never shown he is capable of that.

[threebag]

As long as Cassel is in town Pioli needs ran out of town.

[BoneKrusher]

As long as Cassel is in town Pioli needs ran out of town.

i still laugh at how fast fat Scott got outta the booth Friday night when Cassel started shitting his pants. :D

[007]

Pioli has built a fine team but his three major mistakes are holding it back. Cassel, Haley, Crennel.

If you can't pick solid at those positions of the team then the rest doesn't really mean anything.

[JD10367]

I voted no. I've watched every fruit from the Belichick tree go forth and rot. Coaches, players, front office people, by and large (with a few exceptions) have crashed and burned without Darth Hoodie. He's doing okay with the glaring and fatal exception of quarterback. If he got off his lovefest with Cassel (or the fact that his own giant ego won't let him publicly admit failure), he might have a shot. If Cassel sucks balls in the first couple of games, and Pioli is still yammering about how Cassel's his guy, then Pioli is Dead Man Walking and he's the only one who won't see it.

[Fritz88]

give this team Weis as OC and things would be a lot different
Posted via Mobile Device

[Black Bob]

Pioli is doing a fantastic job in my opinion. We have a ton of talent. We have no players over 30 and are the youngest team in the NFL. This means we are built to last. I would like a better QB but, I don't think we have had a realistic chance of getting someone better.

[Chiefnj2]

It takes Pioli years to address big problems. RT was a need when he took over the team 4 years ago, finally they get Winston. Good move, but years late, and there still isn't really any depth at tackle.

Secondary 'depth' has been a huge issue for years and still isn't addressed. It was a deep free agent class for safeties and Pioli/Clark sat on their money. It's inexcusable to do that when your two starting safeties are each coming off of injuries and you've been trotting Piscatelli out there the previous year. It's a passing league, draft a damn QB every year. It's a passing league, you have to be deep at corner - you overpay Carr mid year and extend him.

[rico]

Where's the "it's a process" option?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

"Forskin" FTW

[Bugeater]

He's a failure until he accomplishes something his predecessor didn't.

[BoneKrusher]

"Forskin" FTW

agreed. :D

[DTLB58]

I liked the Pioli signing and still do. Give the man a chance. How many years did we put up with Carl before getting rid of him. Pioli has made some errors (Casshole, Haley, Jones, and Carr) but overall is moving us in the right direction.
Posted via Mobile Device

"WE" would have gotten rid of Carl a lot sooner if it were up to some of "US"

If Scott weren't so darn stubborn when it came to this whole Cassel thing
he would probably be pretty well liked right now. But since it IS the most important position/decision he could ever make....He is currently failing in my eyes.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Against the Cardinals and Rams? I think I could go out there and look good against those 2 NFC West losers. He played awful against Seattle, flat pass after flat pass it made me sick. What is going to happen when we run into teams like Baltimore? Is he going to dink and dunk to the flats? We just don't have a quarterback who can make reads and hit Wide Receivers. I think he had the worst completion percentage with throws more than 20 yards. You need big time plays to beat big time teams, and Cassel has never shown he is capable of that.

GoChiefs is back

[Ace Gunner]

I'm going to wait until the end of this season because I need to see this team play together again, but I went ahead and voted ya, he can do it.

[DaneMcCloud]

I liked the Pioli signing and still do. Give the man a chance. How many years did we put up with Carl before getting rid of him. Pioli has made some errors (Casshole, Haley, Jones, and Carr) but overall is moving us in the right direction.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, it really sucked when the Chiefs hired Carl. Nine straight wining seasons, AFC Championship Game, traded for a Hall of Famer, signed a Hall of Famer, drafted three Hall of Famers and made several attempts to develop a long term QBOTF.

He was garbage.

[MahiMike]

Other than the QB, he's done a pretty good job.

[DaneMcCloud]

Other than the QB, he's done a pretty good job.

And defensive line. And cornerback. And overall depth.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Considering all the hate Pioli usually gets here I'm a little surprised the can's are ahead of the can'ts. But then again option 3 is pretty much a can't vote as well heh.

[milkman]

Yeah, it really sucked when the Chiefs hired Carl. Nine straight wining seasons, AFC Championship Game, traded for a Hall of Famer, signed a Hall of Famer, drafted three Hall of Famers and made several attempts to develop a long term QBOTF.

He was garbage.

The foundation for those early years with Carl were players drafted by Jack Steadman.

DT was the one player he drafted that ws a part of that foundation.

Through the later years of those 9 seasons, it was teams that relied heavily on the free agent market to continue to compete.

Other than a couple of players, Carl's drafts were marginal, at best.

[RunKC]

The foundation for those early years with Carl were players drafted by Jack Steadman.

DT was the one player he drafted that ws a part of that foundation.

Through the later years of those 9 seasons, it was teams that relied heavily on the free agent market to continue to compete.

Other than a couple of players, Carl's drafts were marginal, at best.

I think our incredible coaching staff in the 90's was a big reason for that talent. Look at Marty for crying out loud. He's one of the best coaches in NFL history at spotting talent. Even the Chargers are still living off of his draft picks and he's been gone for 6 years!

And here King Carl's ringing draft endorsement was Larry Johnson.

[milkman]

I think our incredible coaching staff in the 90's was a big reason for that talent. Look at Marty for crying out loud. He's one of the best coaches in NFL history at spotting talent. Even the Chargers are still living off of his draft picks and he's been gone for 6 years!

And here King Carl's ringing draft endorsement was Larry Johnson.

The Chiefs during Marty's tenure as head coach only drafted 3 or 4 good players.

[jspchief]

The Chiefs during Marty's tenure as head coach only drafted 3 or 4 good players.

Yep. Marty was just excellent at getting the most out of his JAGs. The guy was really a great coach. It's too bad he could never carry it into the post season.

[In58men]

I agree with the majority of the members. QB has been an ongoing issue for a couple of seasons now and still has yet to be fixed. Pioli promised QB competition, so he brings in Tanney and Quinn? WTF? He's been settling for below mediocrity at the most important position in the NFL and it's going to cost him his job sooner or later.

I voted he can't do it. Simply because I know we won't draft a QB next year and Cassel is here to stay unless Hunt goes GM shopping. I truly believe that Pioli thinks Cassel is our QBOTF. He NEVER brought in competition, he brought in a scrub and a YouTube sensation QB. That's quite embarrassing. Bills have one the worst QB corps in the NFL and they didn't want Tanney. This should tell you something about Pioli's judgment on QBs.

[Chiefaholic]

Pioli is literally ONE player away from making this franchise a SERIOUS contender for years to come. Unfortunately it's the most important offensive position. Had Pioli signed for manning I doubt more than half of the posters here would still stand behind Scott.

[saphojunkie]

Considering all the hate Pioli usually gets here I'm a little surprised the can's are ahead of the can'ts. But then again option 3 is pretty much a can't vote as well heh.

Really? I think option #3 is a CAN vote. I would have voted 1 and 3.

Of course Pioli can still do it. We all KNOW he can do it. It's so simple.

Draft a damn QB. Done.

[saphojunkie]

The Chiefs during Marty's tenure as head coach only drafted 3 or 4 good players.

Hmm...

Derrick Thomas
Tim Grunhard
Will Shields
Tony Gonzalez
Jerome Woods
Donnie Edwards
Joe Horn

Those are the pro bowlers.

[milkman]

Hmm...

Derrick Thomas
Tim Grunhard
Will Shields
Tony Gonzalez
Jerome Woods
Donnie Edwards
Joe Horn

Those are the pro bowlers.

First, don't talk to me about Pro Bowls.

Matt Cassel and Steve Bono have gone to the Pro Bowl.

Pro Bowl means jack.

Second, my disdain for Donnie Edwards is pretty well documented.
Might be the single most overrated player by Chiefs fans ever.

That being said, even if I give you Donnie Edwards, and throw in Dave Szott, who was a damn good tackle, we are still talking about only 8 players in 10 years.

[Chiefaholic]

Hmm...

Derrick Thomas
Tim Grunhard
Will Shields
Tony Gonzalez
Jerome Woods
Donnie Edwards
Joe Horn

Those are the pro bowlers.

Pro Bowler for the Saints, not the Chiefs. Marty never gave the guy an opportunity because he always favored a veteran over than taking a chance on a rookie.

I'm not knocking Marty, because I believe he was a fine coach who knew how to get the most out of his players. But, his offensive approach of play not to lose kept a damn fine defensive unit from meeting their abilities in the post season.

[Chiefaholic]

First, don't talk to me about Pro Bowls.

Matt Cassel and Steve Bono have gone to the Pro Bowl.

Pro Bowl means jack.

Second, my disdain for Donnie Edwards is pretty well documented.
Might be the single most overrated player by Chiefs fans ever.

That being said, even if I give you Donnie Edwards, and throw in Dave Szott, who was a damn good tackle, we are still talking about only 8 players in 10 years.
I admit I'm too lazy to Google... But, wasn't Szott a castaway from the Jets prior to the Chiefs?

[DaneMcCloud]

The foundation for those early years with Carl were players drafted by Jack Steadman.

Right. I've made that argument time and again over the years.

DT was the one player he drafted that ws a part of that foundation.

I disagree. Bringing in Mike Webster to help groom Grunhard was a good decision. Peterson also brought in Will Shields, Dave Szott, the aforementioned Derrick Thomas & Dave Szott, Dale Carter, Tony Gonzalez, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue and really hit it out of the park with Salemua, Joe Phillips, Marcus Allen, James Hasty and so on.

Through the later years of those 9 seasons, it was teams that relied heavily on the free agent market to continue to compete.

Well, they were in legitimate "Win Now" territory in 1993-1998. Even then, he brought in Woods, Tongue, Edwards and Gonzalez.

Other than a couple of players, Carl's drafts were marginal, at best.

I certainly agree that during the Vermeil era, the drafts were total ass. But I think that Carl did as much as any GM in the league could do from 1989-1998. He drafted two second round QB's, signed Krieg, traded for Montana, got Bono, Grbac and Gannon. The effort was certainly there. It just didn't end like we Chiefs fans had hoped.

Pioli, OTOH, has failed big time in the QB department and his first heading coaching hire (and assistant coaches to boot) were an epic disaster in his first season. Time will tell if Romeo can right the ship.

[DaneMcCloud]

I admit I'm too lazy to Google... But, wasn't Szott a castaway from the Jets prior to the Chiefs?

He went to the Jets after being drafted by the Chiefs in the 7th round of the 1990 draft.

He left KC because he said the level of care for his son (can't remember the ailment) was better (or something of that nature) on the East Coast.

[milkman]

Right. I've made that argument time and again over the years.



I disagree. Bringing in Mike Webster to help groom Grunhard was a good decision. Peterson also brought in Will Shields, Dave Szott, the aforementioned Derrick Thomas & Dave Szott, Dale Carter, Tony Gonzalez, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue and really hit it out of the park with Salemua, Joe Phillips, Marcus Allen, James Hasty and so on.



Well, they were in legitimate "Win Now" territory in 1993-1998. Even then, he brought in Woods, Tongue, Edwards and Gonzalez.



I certainly agree that during the Vermeil era, the drafts were total ass. But I think that Carl did as much as any GM in the league could do from 1989-1998. He drafted two second round QB's, signed Krieg, traded for Montana, got Bono, Grbac and Gannon. The effort was certainly there. It just didn't end like we Chiefs fans had hoped.

Pioli, OTOH, has failed big time in the QB department and his first heading coaching hire (and assistant coaches to boot) were an epic disaster in his first season. Time will tell if Romeo can right the ship.

The point is, though, that the foundation of those early teams, much like this team, was built by the regime before.

And the reality is that Carl's draft record was pretty mediocre.

[htismaqe]

Pioli is literally ONE player away from making this franchise a SERIOUS contender for years to come. Unfortunately it's the most important offensive position. Had Pioli signed for manning I doubt more than half of the posters here would still stand behind Scott.

The thing is, the NFL has become SO quarterback-centric, just about ANY monkey could make this, or any other franchise, a "serious contender" with just one trade or draft pick.

What Pioli has (or actually hasn't) done with QB position is almost criminal.

[Black Bob]

Wow.... How quickly we forget. Remember what it was like when we had Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen as our QB? Pioli did upgrade the QB position. The thing is that franchise QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. I wish he had brought in someone to compete this year but he didn't. However, it takes two to tango. Campbell quickly signed with Chicago, Garrard with Miami, and Orton's last words on his way tot he airport were "this is Matt's team."

It's true that the only QB he passed on that we could have definately gotten was Dalton. The thing is that Pioli wanted Dalton. He met with Dalton more than any draft prospect that season. He really liked the guy. I remember seeing a picture of the two of them together and they were both wearing Chuck Taylors :). I remember thinking this is a match made in heaven LOL. The thing is that Haley wanted a wide receiver and he wanted the guy from Pitt. He was a Pitt guy. In 2011, we upgraded the receiver position with Breaston and Baldwin for Haley. During the 2011 season, I think Pioli learned a valuable lesson about listening to you coach to much on personnel decisions. Dalton was in the argument for rookie of the year and Waters had the best season in his career. In KC, Lilja sucked after moving from RG to LG and Palko started some games at QB.

[htismaqe]

ROFL

So we passed on Dalton because of Haley?

ROFL

[milkman]

Wow.... How quickly we forget. Remember what it was like when we had Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen as our QB? Pioli did upgrade the QB position. The thing is that franchise QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. I wish he had brought in someone to compete this year but he didn't. However, it takes two to tango. Campbell quickly signed with Chicago, Garrard with Miami, and Orton's last words on his way tot he airport were "this is Matt's team."

It's true that the only QB he passed on that we could have definately gotten was Dalton. The thing is that Pioli wanted Dalton. He met with Dalton more than any draft prospect that season. He really liked the guy. I remember seeing a picture of the two of them together and they were both wearing Chuck Taylors :). I remember thinking this is a match made in heaven LOL. The thing is that Haley wanted a wide receiver and he wanted the guy from Pitt. He was a Pitt guy. In 2011, we upgraded the receiver position with Breaston and Baldwin for Haley. During the 2011 season, I think Pioli learned a valuable lesson about listening to you coach to much on personnel decisions. Dalton was in the argument for rookie of the year and Waters had the best season in his career. In KC, Lilja sucked after moving from RG to LG and Palko started some games at QB.

:bong:

[Black Bob]

ROFL

So we passed on Dalton because of Haley?

ROFL

In my opinion, yes we did. Cassel just came off a playoff/pro bowl season and he wanted more weapons. Haley probably did not see Dalton as being that much different than Cassel and he's really not. Mechanics wise anyway. I think he's a more mentally tough.

[htismaqe]

In my opinion, yes we did. Cassel just came off a playoff/pro bowl season and he wanted more weapons. Haley probably did not see Dalton as being that much different than Cassel and he's really not. Mechanics wise anyway. I think he's a more mentally tough.

One of the biggest reasons Haley isn't here anymore is because he couldn't work with Cassel.

Another big reason was because his ego couldn't co-exist with offensive coordinators who COULD work with Cassel.

Yet we're expected to believe that drafting guys like Baldwin and surrounding Cassel with more weapons, in order to maximize his talent (or further mask his flaws), was Haley's idea?

ROFL

[Black Bob]

:bong:

Who's decision was it to have Tyler Palko be the back up QB? Pioli learned some lessons. In fact, if we had a vet earlier, Haley might still be here. Tyler Palko was the nail in the coffin for Haley.

[milkman]

Who's decision was it to have Tyler Palko be the back up QB? Pioli learned some lessons. In fact, if we had a vet earlier, Haley might still be here. Tyler Palko was the nail in the coffin for Haley.

If Scott Pioli had actually brought in someone to compete, then Tyler Palko would have been serving you your soft food that doesn't require any knives or forks that your care giver was buying you at McDonald's when Cassel was hurt.

[htismaqe]

If Scott Pioli had actually brought in someone to compete, then Tyler Palko would have been serving you your soft food that doesn't require any knives or forks that your care giver was buying you at McDonald's when Cassel was hurt.

This.

[Black Bob]

If Scott Pioli had actually brought in someone to compete, then Tyler Palko would have been serving you your soft food that doesn't require any knives or forks that your care giver was buying you at McDonald's when Cassel was hurt.

I understand that. I have always wanted him to bring a vet in. I am happy he at least brought Quinn in. The thing is that it was 100% Haley's idea to make Palko the #2 and he believed in him. If he didn't, he would not have started him against Revis and Cromartie, the best CB tandem in the league, and thrown the ball on the first three plays of the game when we were still in the playoff hunt. What more proof do you need? That was about as delusional as a coach can get.

1st and 10 at KC 33 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass incomplete short right to D.Bowe (C.Pace).
2nd and 10 at KC 33 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass short right to D.Bowe to KC 38 for 5 yards (B.Pool).
3rd and 5 at KC 38 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass incomplete short middle to S.Breaston (J.Leonhard).
4th and 5 at KC 38 D.Colquitt punts 56 yards to NYJ 6, Center-T.Gafford, downed by KC-D.Johnson.

[ChiefsCountry]

Wow.... How quickly we forget. Remember what it was like when we had Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen as our QB? Pioli did upgrade the QB position. The thing is that franchise QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. I wish he had brought in someone to compete this year but he didn't. However, it takes two to tango. Campbell quickly signed with Chicago, Garrard with Miami, and Orton's last words on his way tot he airport were "this is Matt's team."

It's true that the only QB he passed on that we could have definately gotten was Dalton. The thing is that Pioli wanted Dalton. He met with Dalton more than any draft prospect that season. He really liked the guy. I remember seeing a picture of the two of them together and they were both wearing Chuck Taylors :). I remember thinking this is a match made in heaven LOL. The thing is that Haley wanted a wide receiver and he wanted the guy from Pitt. He was a Pitt guy. In 2011, we upgraded the receiver position with Breaston and Baldwin for Haley. During the 2011 season, I think Pioli learned a valuable lesson about listening to you coach to much on personnel decisions. Dalton was in the argument for rookie of the year and Waters had the best season in his career. In KC, Lilja sucked after moving from RG to LG and Palko started some games at QB.

This isn't the Colation. This bullshit won't fly here.

[Black Bob]

This isn't the Colation. This bullshit won't fly here.

What bullshit?

[the Talking Can]

Wow.... How quickly we forget. Remember what it was like when we had Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen as our QB? Pioli did upgrade the QB position. The thing is that franchise QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. I wish he had brought in someone to compete this year but he didn't. However, it takes two to tango. Campbell quickly signed with Chicago, Garrard with Miami, and Orton's last words on his way tot he airport were "this is Matt's team."

It's true that the only QB he passed on that we could have definately gotten was Dalton. The thing is that Pioli wanted Dalton. He met with Dalton more than any draft prospect that season. He really liked the guy. I remember seeing a picture of the two of them together and they were both wearing Chuck Taylors :). I remember thinking this is a match made in heaven LOL. The thing is that Haley wanted a wide receiver and he wanted the guy from Pitt. He was a Pitt guy. In 2011, we upgraded the receiver position with Breaston and Baldwin for Haley. During the 2011 season, I think Pioli learned a valuable lesson about listening to you coach to much on personnel decisions. Dalton was in the argument for rookie of the year and Waters had the best season in his career. In KC, Lilja sucked after moving from RG to LG and Palko started some games at QB.

literally everything in every one of your posts is made up gibberish

[htismaqe]

The thing is that it was 100% Haley's idea to make Palko the #2 and he believed in him.

Just what other options were there?

The majority here, including YOU, think Stanzi is a waste of time.

Haley can only play guys that are ON the roster, meaning either Palko or Stanzi, the aforementioned waste of time.

There's no way Pioli escapes blame. No way.

[milkman]

I understand that. I have always wanted him to bring a vet in. I am happy he at least brought Quinn in. The thing is that it was 100% Haley's idea to make Palko the #2 and he believed in him. If he didn't, he would not have started him against Revis and Cromartie, the best CB tandem in the league, and thrown the ball on the first three plays of the game when we were still in the playoff hunt. What more proof do you need? That was about as delusional as a coach can get.

You act as though he was trying to push the ball downfield with Palko.

Those were short passes, and it isn't like Jackie Battle and Dexter McCluster were setting the world on fire.

[Black Bob]

This is my opinion and the way I saw it.

I probably should have been more clear about that but this is indeed a football message board for one of the top 3 most tight lipped organizations in the league. Speculation is rampant here and on every other Chiefs message board. I'm having fun here and wanted to leave the Coalition. I appreciate the heads up when you feel I made a mistake and I will be more adament about clarifying opinion vs. fact and I apologize.

Pioli does have the final say on who to bring in. The coach has the final word on who to cut. It's the same way everywhere else. However, to suggest that the coach does not have major input is incorrect. It's why we have Copper and Breaston. It's why Leonard Pope is in Pittsburgh....

I don't care if you think my posts are gibberish but, don't be a pussy and say they are gibberish without explanation. Either ban the guy, ignore the guy, point out what's wrong and allow him to answer, or shut the **** up.

Some of you guys are hands down the biggest whiney pussies I have ever seen on a message board. Do you want to have a conversation or do you want to sit around and say "Cassel Sucks" and "Fuck You" all day?

[Black Bob]

You act as though he was trying to push the ball downfield with Palko.

Those were short passes, and it isn't like Jackie Battle and Dexter McCluster were setting the world on fire.

He was throwing at Revis and Cromartie. He was throwing to Bowe and Breaston. Haley's a fucking idiot.

1st and 10 at KC 33 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass incomplete short right to D.Bowe (C.Pace).
2nd and 10 at KC 33 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass short right to D.Bowe to KC 38 for 5 yards (B.Pool).
3rd and 5 at KC 38 (Shotgun) T.Palko pass incomplete short middle to S.Breaston (J.Leonhard).
4th and 5 at KC 38 D.Colquitt punts 56 yards to NYJ 6, Center-T.Gafford, downed by KC-D.Johnson.

[htismaqe]

It's all Haley's fault...

[Black Bob]

It's all Haley's fault...

No, Cassel is meh but, he'll be better without Haley interfering and that's a proven fact.

[htismaqe]

No, Cassel is meh but, he'll be better without Haley interfering and that's a proven fact.

Better than "bad" does not equal "good".

[Black Bob]

Better than "bad" does not equal "good".

Indifference is worse than hate. We aren't there yet.

[htismaqe]

Indifference is worse than hate. We aren't there yet.

Says who?

[milkman]

He was throwing at Revis and Cromartie. He was throwing to Bowe and Breaston. Haley's a ****ing idiot.

I don't care who he was throwing at.

The fact is, he's going to have to throw the ball at some point, so why wait?

Let Palko get his feet wet, or wait until he has to throw it.

Which option has a better chance for success?

[milkman]

No, Cassel is meh but, he'll be better without Haley interfering and that's a proven fact.

That's a proven fact?

How?

[Black Bob]

That's a proven fact?

How?

Without going into records, injuries, etc. here it is.

2008 New England - Good

2009 - Haley Calling the Plays - Bad

2010 - Charlie Weis - Good

2011 - Todd Haley micromanaging/sometimes calling the plays - Bad



No running game to help Cassel in 2009 or 2011. It took forever in 2009 to put Charles in. He never put McClain at RB in 2011. He went with his boy Battle over McClain. He did nothing to help Cassel. He would have ****ed Orton up too.

[htismaqe]

Without going into records, injuries, etc. here it is.

2008 New England - Good

2009 - Haley Calling the Plays - Bad

2010 - Charlie Weis - Good

2011 - Todd Haley micromanaging/sometimes calling the plays - Bad

No running game to help Cassel in 2009 or 2011. It took forever in 2009 to put Charles in. He never put McClain at RB in 2011. He went with his boy Battle over McClain. He did nothing to help Cassel. He would have ****ed Orton up too.

His "boy" Battle was here when he got here. JFC, some of this is a real stretch.

[Black Bob]

His "boy" Battle was here when he got here. JFC, some of this is a real stretch.

Yeah but he went with him over McClain. Nothings a stretch there. We didn't score a rushing TD until week 8 or 9 in 2009. McClain almost rushed for 1,000 yards in Baltimore.

Tell me how in the **** he helped Cassel?

Name one thing that Haley did that makes us better today.

[milkman]

Without going into records, injuries, etc. here it is.

2008 New England - Good

2009 - Haley Calling the Plays - Bad

2010 - Charlie Weis - Good

2011 - Todd Haley micromanaging/sometimes calling the plays - Bad



No running game to help Cassel in 2009 or 2011. It took forever in 2009 to put Charles in. He never put McClain at RB in 2011. He went with his boy Battle over McClain. He did nothing to help Cassel. He would have ****ed Orton up too.

2008 NewEngland-NFC West schedule.

2009-Not the NFC West

2010-NFC West

2011-Not the NFC West

[htismaqe]

Yeah but he went with him over McClain. Nothings a stretch there. We didn't score a rushing TD until week 8 or 9 in 2009. McClain almost rushed for 1,000 yards in Baltimore.

Tell me how in the **** he helped Cassel?

Name one thing that Haley did that makes us better today.

They brought McClain in to play FB. He sucked, most likely due to lack of effort. He wasn't willing to HELP CASSEL by getting a fucking block, why should he be expected to help Cassel by running the ball?

Oh yeah, because running the ball gets him his stats. Fuck LeRon McClain, he ain't a team player and he's gone.

[Black Bob]

2008 NewEngland-NFC West schedule.

2009-Not the NFC West

2010-NFC West

2011-Not the NFC West

Horseshit. I'm not saying Cassel doesn't only beat the good teams but Seattle beat New Orleans in the playoffs in 2010. Why did we beat Green Bay after Haley left? Were they just coming off the Superbowl victory? Were they undefeated? Haley fucked Cassel up. It was all Haley but, it was at least 25% Haley.

[Bewbies]

His "boy" Battle was here when he got here. JFC, some of this is a real stretch.

You're arguing with the guy that wanted DeCastro due to his elite communication skills and pre-snap importance...

[htismaqe]

Horseshit. I'm not saying Cassel doesn't only beat the good teams but Seattle beat New Orleans in the playoffs in 2010. Why did we beat Green Bay after Haley left? Were they just coming off the Superbowl victory? Were they undefeated? Haley ****ed Cassel up. It was all Haley but, it was at least 25% Haley.

God fucked Cassel up.

Haley just didn't coddle him enough...

[Black Bob]

They brought McClain in to play FB. He sucked, most likely due to lack of effort. He wasn't willing to HELP CASSEL by getting a ****ing block, why should he be expected to help Cassel by running the ball?

Oh yeah, because running the ball gets him his stats. **** LeRon McClain, he ain't a team player and he's gone.

We had a FB on the practice squad all year. Why? So McClain could play running back in a pinch. We were in a pinch when Charles went down. It quickly became clear the Jones was done and Battle sucked.

Haley did not play to the strengths of the players he had. He tried to fit a round peg in a square hole.

[Black Bob]

You're arguing with the guy that wanted DeCastro due to his elite communication skills and pre-snap importance...

??? That's not me...

[Bewbies]

??? That's not me...

Busby.

[milkman]

Horseshit. I'm not saying Cassel doesn't only beat the good teams but Seattle beat New Orleans in the playoffs in 2010. Why did we beat Green Bay after Haley left? Were they just coming off the Superbowl victory? Were they undefeated? Haley ****ed Cassel up. It was all Haley but, it was at least 25% Haley.

It's well documented here.

Matt Cassel has won two games against playoff teams, one of which was that Seahawk team.

He has won 3(?) games against teams with winning records.

Haley didn't fuck him up.

Good teams fucked him up.




No, I take that back.
Good teams didn't fuck him up, they just expose the fact that he is fucked up.

[milkman]

We had a FB on the practice squad all year. Why? So McClain could play running back in a pinch. We were in a pinch when Charles went down. It quickly became clear the Jones was done and Battle sucked.

Haley did not play to the strengths of the players he had. He tried to fit a round peg in a square hole.

McClain, in his best season, averaged 3.9 ypc.
Battle averaged 4.0 ypc.

McClain would have been sooooo much better.

[Black Bob]

God ****ed Cassel up.

Haley just didn't coddle him enough...

He looked great with Weis.

[Black Bob]

McClain, in his best season, averaged 3.9 ypc.
Battle averaged 4.0 ypc.

McClain would have been sooooo much better.

McClain got 8 touches against Green Bay.

[htismaqe]

He looked great with Weis.

Great? Hardly.

He looked adequate with Weis. A perfect game manager.

When it came time for him to rise up and take the team on his shoulders, he wilted every time.

[milkman]

McClain got 8 touches against Green Bay.

Read my post again, and get back to me with a relevant response.

[Black Bob]

It's well documented here.

Matt Cassel has won two games against playoff teams, one of which was that Seahawk team.

He has won 3(?) games against teams with winning records.

Haley didn't **** him up.

Good teams ****ed him up.




No, I take that back.
Good teams didn't **** him up, they just expose the fact that he is ****ed up.

I'm not arguing with you at all. I completely agree. He chokes when we need him most. That's why I was encouraged by the hurry up drive the other night. However, there is no doubt he was better whenever Haley was micromanaging him.

[htismaqe]

McClain got 8 touches against Green Bay.

He got 6 against Detroit.

He got 1 vs. Oakland and 2 in Denver.

Damn, Romeo Crennel didn't know how to use him either!

Or maybe he's just a worthless POS.

[milkman]

The Chiefs with Charles average 20+points a game.

Without Charles, they average 13+points a game.

The Chiefs with Matt Cassel, and no Charles, average 13+points a game.

The Chiefs without Matt Cassel, and no Charles, average 13+points a game.

[Black Bob]

Read my post again, and get back to me with a relevant response.

When we gave the rock to McClain against the Packers, he averaged 5.0 ypc and 6.5 ypc.

On eight touches, the most he ever got as a Chief, he average 5.8 yards per touch. That is significantly better than Battle.

Furthermore, that is hands down the biggest game the Chiefs have won in the past three years.

[htismaqe]

When we gave the rock to McClain against the Packers, he averaged 5.0 ypc and 6.5 ypc.

On eight touches, the most he ever got as a Chief, he average 5.8 yards per touch. That is significantly better than Battle.

Furthermore, that is hands down the biggest game the Chiefs have won in the past three years.

So why didn't they use him against Oakland or Denver then?

If Haley is to take blame for this, Romeo should too. Because he used him EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

[Black Bob]

The Chiefs with Charles average 20+points a game.

Without Charles, they average 13+points a game.

The Chiefs with Matt Cassel, and no Charles, average 13+points a game.

The Chiefs without Matt Cassel, and no Charles, average 13+points a game.

It's the same fucking thing I'm talking about. Haley didn't know how to use his tools. In 2010 with Weis, we were 8-0 when Jones got 11 or more carries. He knew how to run the ball. haley did not. It wasn't all Charles man. It was Jones and Charles. We are going to be good with Hillis and Charles.

[BoneKrusher]

Furthermore, that is hands down the biggest game the Chiefs have won in the past three years.

and thankfully Cassel had nothing to do with it.

[milkman]

When we gave the rock to McClain against the Packers, he averaged 5.0 ypc and 6.5 ypc.

On eight touches, the most he ever got as a Chief, he average 5.8 yards per touch. That is significantly better than Battle.

Furthermore, that is hands down the biggest game the Chiefs have won in the past three years.

You mean against the Packer team that, in spite of their 15-1 record, had one of the worst defenses in the league?

And do you think that maybe the fact that Orton threw for 299 yards, forcing the Pack to respect the passing game might have played a hand in that?

[Black Bob]

So why didn't they use him against Oakland or Denver then?

If Haley is to take blame for this, Romeo should too. Because he used him EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

I don't know? I'm sure it had to with the gameplan. Oakland's secondary stunk. The gameplan against Denver was running the clock and winning with defense. All I know is McClain was never part of Haley's gameplan and he wasted him.

[milkman]

It's the same ****ing thing I'm talking about. Haley didn't know how to use his tools. In 2010 with Weis, we were 8-0 when Jones got 11 or more carries. He knew how to run the ball. haley did not. It wasn't all Charles man. It was Jones and Charles. We are going to be good with Hillis and Charles.

How many of those teams had a winning record?

Weis didn't have some miracle running formula.

He called plays against one of the weakest schedules in the league.

[Black Bob]

You mean against the Packer team that, in spite of their 15-1 record, had one of the worst defenses in the league?

And do you think that maybe the fact that Orton threw for 299 yards, forcing the Pack to respect the passing game might have played a hand in that?

We won that game because we successfully controlled the clock and played good defense. Again, Haley did not know how to run the ball. We ran for 139 yards that day.

[Black Bob]

How many of those teams had a winning record?

Weis didn't have some miracle running formula.

He called plays against one of the weakest schedules in the league.

So fucking what? He played the hand he was dealt. We didn't just beat teams. We kicked their ass more often than not.

In my opinion, if Charlie Weis had been the OC last year, we would have won the AFC West without question. He was worth two extra wins.

[milkman]

We won that game because we successfully controlled the clock and played good defense. Again, Haley did not know how to run the ball. We ran for 139 yards that day.

I don't give a rat's ass how effectively you are running the ball.

At some point the QB has to convert 3rd downs, and Orton was far more effective at moving the chains than Matt Cassel has ever been.

I can't believe I'm arguing about Orton being better than Cassel, but he is.

Orton sucks ass, but Cassel is like a guy that is balls deep at a Lane Bryant convention.

[suds79]

At this point Pioli strikes me as a March Schottenheimer type of GM.

He's a good guy to get you out of the gutter. Builds a solid team but can't take you all the way and you need to make a move to take that next step.

As long as he ties himself to Matt Cassel and refuses to draft QBs, that's exactly what he is.

If this team fails to make the playoffs this year, I don't know if he deserves to keep his job. 4 years, Matt Cassel, 2 coaches and ignoring the most important position in all sports is a fireable offense.

[Black Bob]

I don't give a rat's ass how effectively you are running the ball.

At some point the QB has to convert 3rd downs, and Orton was far more effective at moving the chains than Matt Cassel has ever been.

I can't believe I'm arguing about Orton being better than Cassel, but he is.

Orton sucks ass, but Cassel is like a guy that is balls deep at a Lane Bryant convention.

I agree. :toast:

He sucks at making the plays he has to make. He chokes and doesn't have an ounce of "clutch" in his veins. This is my biggest gripe about the guy. It can't be fixed and it's not something you can learn. You either have it or you don't. Orton is more likely to do it every now and again.

I get so sick of people talking about his pocket presence, his arm strength, and his accuracy. That's not the problem. The problem is he's missing the intanigibles up to this point. The ability to put it on his shoulders and carry the team. The abiltity to "will" wins.

Maybe he can grow in this area? I doubt it but maybe. Alex Smith did it last year. I was encouraged by the hurry drive the other night. If that had been a real game, we would have HAD to score on that drive to have any chance. He made the play when he had to and it was a good one. People laughed and made fun of his celebration but it was good to see him loose. He seems to have a **** it attitude and I think he realizes he can't be perfect.

All I know is that we have to get ahead of teams and hang on. That's our formula for success and I believe we have the weapons to do it. This was Green bay's formula in 2010. They never trailed in the playoffs and Rodgers is not good at coming back.

I also think he will be better with Daboll. The offense has been taylored to Cassel's strong points and he has the ability to change the plays.

He never got this with Haley. It's the same thing Big Ben is going through right now.

[htismaqe]

I don't know? I'm sure it had to with the gameplan. Oakland's secondary stunk. The gameplan against Denver was running the clock and winning with defense. All I know is McClain was never part of Haley's gameplan and he wasted him.

Seriously man, I'm not going to go all milkman on you but this is horseshit.

McClain had 8 touches against Green Bay (under RAC) and 6 touches against Detroit (under Haley). He had no more than 2 touches in any other game all year, regardless of who was head coach.

Furthermore, you're trying to suggest that McClain should have been used to run the ball and shelter Cassel, yet the reason he wasn't used against Denver was because the goal was to control the clock and win with defense.

You're contradicting yourself.

[milkman]

I agree. :toast:

He sucks at making the plays he has to make. He chokes and doesn't have an ounce of "clutch" in his veins. This is my biggest gripe about the guy. It can't be fixed and it's not something you can learn. You either have it or you don't. Orton is more likely to do it every now and again.

I get so sick of people talking about his pocket presence, his arm strength, and his accuracy. That's not the problem. The problem is he's missing the intanigibles up to this point. The ability to put it on his shoulders and carry the team. The abiltity to will wins.

Maybe he can grow in this area? I doubt it but maybe. Alex Smith did it last year. I was encouraged by the hurry drive the other night. If that had been a real game, we would have HAD to score on that drive to have any chance. He made the play when he had to and it was a good one.

All I know is that we have to get ahead of people and hang on. That's our formula for success and I believe we have the weapons to do it.

I also think he will be better with Daboll. The offense has been taylored to Cassel's strong points and he has the ability to change the plays.

He never got this with Haley. It's the same thing Big Ben is going through right now.

And that just leads us back to the point that htismaque made.

Better than bad does not equal good.

Bottom line is this.

We doing nothing but spinning our wheels with Matt Cassel at the helm.

I firmly believe he's going to put up some respectable numbers, but at the end of the day, you can not win with him, and until we get a QB that we can win with, it's just wasted seasons.

[Black Bob]

Seriously man, I'm not going to go all milkman on you but this is horseshit.

McClain had 8 touches against Green Bay (under RAC) and 6 touches against Detroit (under Haley). He had no more than 2 touches in any other game all year, regardless of who was head coach.

Furthermore, you're trying to suggest that McClain should have been used to run the ball and shelter Cassel, yet the reason he wasn't used against Denver was because the goal was to control the clock and win with defense.

You're contradicting yourself.

I am saying we should have run the ball more and run more effectivley. I'm not contradicting myself. Haley gave up on McClain quick. I'm saying Haley didn't know how to run the ball. The most important thing you should take away from 2010 is that we lead the league in rushing.

We are trying to win with Cassel and we need to run the ball. KC is built to run the ball. With Charlie Weis as OC last year, we would have won more games.

[milkman]

Seriously man, I'm not going to go all milkman on you but this is horseshit.

McClain had 8 touches against Green Bay (under RAC) and 6 touches against Detroit (under Haley). He had no more than 2 touches in any other game all year, regardless of who was head coach.

Furthermore, you're trying to suggest that McClain should have been used to run the ball and shelter Cassel, yet the reason he wasn't used against Denver was because the goal was to control the clock and win with defense.

You're contradicting yourself.

I only go "all milkman" on dumbasses who simply ignore the points that I am discussing.

Bob here, while failing to adequately address the points, has attempted to do just that.

I can have a civil debate in these type of discussions.

[Black Bob]

And that just leads us back to the point that htismaque made.

Better than bad does not equal good.

Bottom line is this.

We doing nothing but spinning our wheels with Matt Cassel at the helm.

I firmly believe he's going to put up some respectable numbers, but at the end of the day, you can not win with him, and until we get a QB that we can win with, it's just wasted seasons.

Maybe so but, again, QBs don't grow on trees and it could be worse. You can't just try out QBs at the expense of your players. Winning is the most important thing.

It's like I said, indifference is worse than hate. Hating Cassel is better than not caring. It can get worse. There is still a tad bit of hope in everyone here.

[milkman]

Maybe so but, again, QBs don't grow on trees and it could be worse. You can't just try out QBs at the expense of your players. Winning is the most important thing.

It's like I said, indifference is worse than hate. Hating Cassel is better than not caring. It can get worse. There is still a tad bit of hope in everyone here.

My hope lies in the fact that this roster is improved, and has the potential to be very good.

But make no mistake, even if everything else comes together, I have no hope that this team will find a way to the SB with Matt Cassel at QB.

He's 30 years old, 7 years in the league, 4 years as a starter.

He's not going to wake up some morning and suddenly have an epiphany and get it.

He is exactly the same guy he was in '08.

A physically limited QB who lacks the mental tools to be anything more.

[BigMeatballDave]

I am saying we should have run the ball more and run more effectivley. I'm not contradicting myself. Haley gave up on McClain quick. I'm saying Haley didn't know how to run the ball. The most important thing you should take away from 2010 is that we lead the league in rushing.

We are trying to win with Cassel and we need to run the ball. KC is built to run the ball. With Charlie Weis as OC last year, we would have won more games.

In case you missed it, Jamaal Charles missed almost all of last season.

[Black Bob]

In case you missed it, Jamaal Charles missed almost all of last season.

You are right and that's my point. Without big time playmakers like Charles, Fitzgerald, and Warner, Haley was nothing.

and thankfully Cassel had nothing to do with it.

Smartass ROFL

[htismaqe]

I am saying we should have run the ball more and run more effectivley. I'm not contradicting myself. Haley gave up on McClain quick. I'm saying Haley didn't know how to run the ball. The most important thing you should take away from 2010 is that we lead the league in rushing.

We are trying to win with Cassel and we need to run the ball. KC is built to run the ball. With Charlie Weis as OC last year, we would have won more games.

In 2010, we rushed the ball 35 times per game in games where Cassel started.

In 2011, we rushed the ball 31 times per game in games where Cassel started, despite a sample size HALF of 2010 that includes the Buffalo debacle.

Furthermore, as I already pointed out, Romeo didn't use McClain either - he had all of 3 touches in the final 2 games, including one where you say we were trying to pound the ball and run out the clock.

[Mr. Laz]

I think ultimately Pioli's legacy in KC will be his inability to deviate from the Patriots. Cassel, Crennel, Daboll, draft picks trying to make the 3-4 work, etc.

He doesn't appear to be capable of doing anything other than trying to replicate what he had in NE as if it's a paint by numbers. That tunnel vision approach will be what ends his stint in KC.
or he could find a quality QB in the middle rounds and bring KC a perennial super bowl challenger type team.

but don't like any positive thoughts get in your way

[htismaqe]

or he could find a quality QB in the middle rounds and bring KC a perennial super bowl challenger type team.

but don't like any positive thoughts get in your way

Is it possible? Sure.

Is it PROBABLE? No, not at all.

There's nothing wrong with having a little hope. But any more hope than a "little" and you're probably just setting yourself up to be disappointed.

Of course, fans of about 26-27 NFL teams could say the same thing.

[Mr. Laz]

setting yourself up to be disappointed.
We are KC fans ... what do you expect?


we've been set up for disappointment in every sport for decades

:shrug:



fyi: Cassel is in the QB top 10 of virtually every category for this preseason. :fire:

[Rasputin]

I am saying we should have run the ball more and run more effectivley. I'm not contradicting myself. Haley gave up on McClain quick. I'm saying Haley didn't know how to run the ball. The most important thing you should take away from 2010 is that we lead the league in rushing. We are trying to win with Cassel and we need to run the ball. KC is built to run the ball. With Charlie Weis as OC last year, we would have won more games.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/AnthroBot/gif/funny_animated_gif_97.gif

[milkman]

We are KC fans ... what do you expect?


we've been set up for disappointment in ever sport for decades

:shrug:



fyi: Cassel is in the QB top 10 of virtually every category for this preaseason. :fire:

Where's he rank in ypa?

[Chiefnj2]

Where's he rank in ypa?

#9, right ahead of Eli.

[BigMeatballDave]

Where's he rank in ypa?
Before Friday, it wasn't bad. Like 7.8. Higher than Manning.

Friday's game was awful, though. Under 5, I think.

[milkman]

#9, right ahead of Eli.

You finding these stats at NFL.com?

[htismaqe]

You finding these stats at NFL.com?

Yeah.

First game he was 11.2ypa on 6 attempts. 2nd game he was 7.8ypa on 18 attempts.

3rd game he was 4.9ypa on 34 attempts.

[Rasputin]

Yeah.

First game he was 11.2ypa on 6 attempts. 2nd game he was 7.8ypa on 18 attempts.

3rd game he was 4.9ypa on 34 attempts.

Cassel needs less attempts.

[Mr. Laz]

Cassel needs less attempts.
you need to smoke less Cannabis

[Black Bob]

In 2010, we rushed the ball 35 times per game in games where Cassel started.

In 2011, we rushed the ball 31 times per game in games where Cassel started, despite a sample size HALF of 2010 that includes the Buffalo debacle.

Furthermore, as I already pointed out, Romeo didn't use McClain either - he had all of 3 touches in the final 2 games, including one where you say we were trying to pound the ball and run out the clock.

Haley didn't know how to run effectively. Detroit and Green Bay were our 2nd and 3rd most rushing yard games after Indy. They were also the games McClain got touches. It's not always about getting yards. It's about running effectively like it was when Weiss ran with Jones. McClain is just an example of not using all the tools in the shed. He quit on him to early imo.

Check this out, we ran the ball 4 times in the first quarter against Buffalo last year. We ran it once in the second quarter and 18 times the entire game. Haley panicked and quit running the ball. He would always abandon the run quick when we got behind. Quicker than most coaches. He did this back in 2009 too. We were running the ball for 6 ypc. in that game. The highest YPC all year.

[BigMeatballDave]

you need to smoke less Cannabis

Well, the fewer attempts he has, the better things are.

If he's chucking the ball 40 times, the Chiefs lose.

[milkman]

you need to smoke less Cannabis

If the damage is already done, then what is the point of stopping, or cutting back?

[Black Bob]

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/AnthroBot/gif/funny_animated_gif_97.gif

Charle Weis - ever heard of him?

[Rasputin]

Charle Weis - ever heard of him?

ROFL It was all in your post that I highlighted that made it funny dude.


:Poke:

[Black Bob]

Before Friday, it wasn't bad. Like 7.8. Higher than Manning.

Friday's game was awful, though. Under 5, I think.

I'm not much of a stat guy and I think they are overrated most of the time.

However, I' the team had four drops and he forced the ball to Bowe on 3 out of 4 of the times he targeted him. That's seven passes where we were either fucking around or fucking up.

[Black Bob]

ROFL It was all in your post that made it funny dude.


:Poke:

:toast: Fair enough.... LOL

[htismaqe]

I'm not much of a stat guy and I think they are overrated most of the time.

However, I' the team had four drops and he forced the ball to Bowe on 3 out of 4 of the times he targeted him. That's seven passes where we were either ****ing around or ****ing up.

All of the drops in the 1st quarter were high throws.

Still catchable, yes, but not good throws.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm not much of a stat guy and I think they are overrated most of the time.

However, I' the team had four drops and he forced the ball to Bowe on 3 out of 4 of the times he targeted him. That's seven passes where we were either fucking around or fucking up.

YPA is not an overrated stat.

Its a good barometer of how far the QB is tossing the ball.

[htismaqe]

Haley didn't know how to run effectively. Detroit and Green Bay were our 2nd and 3rd most rushing yard games after Indy. They were also the games McClain got touches. It's not always about getting yards. It's about running effectively like it was when Weiss ran with Jones. McClain is just an example of not using all the tools in the shed. He quit on him to early imo.

Seriously, stop. You're making yourself dizzy.

[Chiefnj2]

3rd game he was 4.9ypa on 34 attempts.

It would be a lot higher if Moeaki could catch a ball and Baldwin could get separation.*






*And if Cassel didn't spend the entire first quarter throwing 3 feet high on every pass.

[htismaqe]

It would be a lot higher if Moeaki could catch a ball and Baldwin could get separation.*






*And if Cassel didn't spend the entire first quarter throwing 3 feet high on every pass.

Agreed.

That first quarter was 50/50. Like I said before, all of those passes were too high but they were still catchable.

[milkman]

Seriously, stop. You're making yourself dizzy.

I get his point, even if he's muddling through it.

The one thing I liked about Charlie Weis, and I said this when he took the job in KC, is that he understood the value of the running game, and never abandoned it, even when the Pats were ineffective at running it.

His other point, that McClain was going to make some kind of difference, is without merit though.

The season he keeps pointing to when McLain ran for over 900 yards, he averaged roughly the same as Battle did last year.

McClain, like Battle, is just a mediocre RB.

He got nearly 1000 yards because he got a shit ton of carries.

[htismaqe]

I get his point, even if he's muddling through it.

The thing is, his point still really isn't valid.

The difference between 2010 and 2011, in terms of utilizing the running game, just doesn't exist. Here's the rush attemtps per game, by game (in which Cassel started), for both seasons:

2010 - 26, 26, 39, 27, 38, 42, 45, 34, 22, 29, 48, 39, 42, 40, 29
2011 - 18, 29, 27, 28, 38, 39, 32, 34

[ChiefsCountry]

Also him saying we drafted Baldwin because of Haley is also funny. Belicheck and the other members of the tree were wetting themselves over Baldwin, yet they took him just because of Haley.

[Mr. Laz]

It would be a lot higher if Moeaki could catch a ball and Baldwin could get separation.*

*And if Cassel didn't spend the entire first quarter throwing 3 feet high on every pass.
and if Bowe would make a play on the jump ball like Braylon Edwards did in that same game

[Black Bob]

Also him saying we drafted Baldwin because of Haley is also funny. Belicheck and the other members of the tree were wetting themselves over Baldwin, yet they took him just because of Haley.

Yeah but, we had already signed Breaston who was a proven #2 WR. Also, he didn't fit the mold of the type of player Pioli had drafted in the past. He had been in some trouble with his former coach and acted like a Diva. It's even different Houston because he was busted for weed. His problems were off the field.

Also, we had taken two defensive guys in Pioli's first couple of years. I bet Haley was in his ear because of this. Most of us thought Phil Taylor or Gabe Carimi would help the most. We passed on both and when we moved back, Carimi was still there. I'm not an expert but taking Baldwin is not a Pioli like pick. The guy won three Superbowls with average talent WRs who had good hands. He tried to trade Bowe when he got to KC and Baldwin was practically he his clone. I think Pioli got sold on Baldwin. At that point, they were riding high off a playoff win and his trust for Haley was at an all time high.

When Baldwin came in and got in a fight with the team captain that didn't help Haley either. People don't like Jones but the PLAYERS elected him team captain two years in row. That's why he was at the top of the depth chart. I don't care about Jones but, I'm just saying it didn't look good on Haley.

Here's a couple of quotes on Baldwin by Haley.

"Once they realize they're no longer allowed to act like a diva, then we work well together," Haley said.


"I know we got a guy that cares about football that comes from a tough part of town in Pittsburgh that adds a little something to the mix on him. I think we have a guy that, as we go forward, I'm really excited about seeing him come into this team and be a part of what we're doing."

[ChiefsCountry]

Yeah but, we had already signed Breaston who was a proven #2 WR. Also, he didn't fit the mold of the type of player Pioli had drafted in the past. He had been in some trouble with his former coach and acted like a Diva. It's even different Houston because he was busted for weed. His problems were off the field.

Also, we had taken two defensive guys in Pioli's first couple of years. I bet Haley was in his ear because of this. Most of us thought Phil Taylor or Gabe Carimi would help the most. We passed on both and when we moved back, Carimi was still there. I'm not an expert but taking Baldwin is not a Pioli like pick. The guy won three Superbowls with average talent WRs who had good hands. He tried to trade Bowe when he got to KC and Baldwin was practically he his clone. I think Pioli got sold on Baldwin. At that point, they were riding high off a playoff win and his trust for Haley was at an all time high.

When Baldwin came in and got in a fight with the team captain that didn't help Haley either. People don't like Jones but the PLAYERS elected him team captain two years in row. That's why he was at the top of the depth chart. I don't care about Jones but, I'm just saying it didn't look good on Haley.

Here's a couple of quotes on Baldwin by Haley.

"Once they realize they're no longer allowed to act like a diva, then we work well together," Haley said.


"I know we got a guy that cares about football that comes from a tough part of town in Pittsburgh that adds a little something to the mix on him. I think we have a guy that, as we go forward, I'm really excited about seeing him come into this team and be a part of what we're doing."

Your wrote a lot of words for nothing, you were wrong about it. Pioli didn't draft Baldwin because of Haley. Pioli drafted him because that is who those in the tree wanted to draft and they had him rated high.

[Black Bob]

The thing is, his point still really isn't valid.

The difference between 2010 and 2011, in terms of utilizing the running game, just doesn't exist. Here's the rush attemtps per game, by game (in which Cassel started), for both seasons:

2010 - 26, 26, 39, 27, 38, 42, 45, 34, 22, 29, 48, 39, 42, 40, 29
2011 - 18, 29, 27, 28, 38, 39, 32, 34

It's not just about the attempts. It's about running it successfully. It's about not running too many HB draws. It's about moving the ball forward and effectively running the ball. To see the whole picture you need to look back at 2009 and even his days in Arizona. Here's a small taste of what I mean...

It's about YPC and time of possession. Remember why we got Thomas Jones in the first place? Because we couldn't get a 3rd and inches with Haley. We were worst in the league at that.

It's not just the running game. It was the way he tried to force the ball down the field too often. We didn't have the QB or the WRs to do that. We aren't a speed based offense like Pittsburgh and our QB didn't have the arm.

Haley was unable to adapt and unwilling to change. We were immediately better when he left. Here's what I mean:

Time of Possession

2009 - KC Ranked 31st with Haley calling the plays

2010 - KC Ranked 16 with Weis calling the plays (pretty balanced)

2011 - KC Ranked 24th over the course of the entire season

2011 (last three games) - KC ranked 5th

I know that part of this is talent and schedule but it's not all that. I could see it on the field.

[Black Bob]

Pioli drafted him because that is who those in the tree wanted to draft and they had him rated high.

Pure speculation. Just like me.

[DaWolf]

I like Pioli. I think he works his ass off, and truly wants nothing more than to win. He's built a nice looking roster. However, the concerns I have about Pioli:

1) Has shown no ability to be able to evaluate the QB position better than the last regime
2) I have very little faith in his ability to hire a quality Head Coach
3) I question his ability to put together a team that can dominate the line of scrimmage (he's certainly tried via the draft, but Poe is a project, Jackson is average at best, and on the OL he stuck with Barry Richardson way too long and should not have had Wigemann there last year)

Unfortunately, these three issues are the biggest issues in my mind to building a championship team...

[Chiefnj2]

The book about the Pats/Falcons/Chiefs draft went into the WR class that year. The Falcons thought Jones was well worth the value to move up. Belichik was quoted as saying you could grab the same player in Baldwin later in the first round. Bill and Scott weren't quite correct.

[Black Bob]

The book about the Pats/Falcons/Chiefs draft went into the WR class that year. The Falcons thought Jones was well worth the value to move up. Belichik was quoted as saying you could grab the same player in Baldwin later in the first round. Bill and Scott weren't quite correct.

Good point and I remember hearing that. So Belicheck planted the seed that Baldwin might be ledgit? I believe that. I just don't think we were looking for a first round receiver heading into that draft. I don't believe that. That discussion occurred at the Senior Bowl before we signed Breaston.

[milkman]

It's not just about the attempts. It's about running it successfully. It's about not running too many HB draws. It's about moving the ball forward and effectively running the ball. To see the whole picture you need to look back at 2009 and even his days in Arizona. Here's a small taste of what I mean...

It's about YPC and time of possession. Remember why we got Thomas Jones in the first place? Because we couldn't get a 3rd and inches with Haley. We were worst in the league at that.

It's not just the running game. It was the way he tried to force the ball down the field too often. We didn't have the QB or the WRs to do that. We aren't a speed based offense like Pittsburgh and our QB didn't have the arm.

Haley was unable to adapt and unwilling to change. We were immediately better when he left. Here's what I mean:

Time of Possession

2009 - KC Ranked 31st with Haley calling the plays

2010 - KC Ranked 16 with Weis calling the plays (pretty balanced)

2011 - KC Ranked 24th over the course of the entire season

2011 (last three games) - KC ranked 5th

I know that part of this is talent and schedule but it's not all that. I could see it on the field.

2009-Not NFC West.
2010-NFC West.
2011-First 13 games, Matt Cassel and Tyler Palko.
2011-Last three games, Kyle Orton.

[ChiefsCountry]

Pure speculation. Just like me.

No it was quoted in the book the War Room.

[Black Bob]

No it was quoted in the book the War Room.

I remember that now. See my post above.

[DaWolf]

Good point and I remember hearing that. So Belicheck planted the seed that Baldwin might be ledgit? I believe that. I just don't think we were looking for a first round receiver heading into that draft. I don't believe that. That discussion occurred at the Senior Bowl before we signed Breaston.

Speculation is he really liked Mike Pouncey. Willing to trade up. Miami drafted him however and we moved on...

[htismaqe]

It's not just about the attempts. It's about running it successfully.

That's on the players. You questioned Haley's committment to the run. When I proved to you that were wrong, it then became about him running the ball but not running it right.

:lame:

[Black Bob]

2009-Not NFC West.
2010-NFC West.
2011-First 13 games, Matt Cassel and Tyler Palko.
2011-Last three games, Kyle Orton.

Were we better with Weis?

What did Haley do to make us better?

[Mr. Laz]

That's on the players. You questioned Haley's committment to the run. When I proved to you that were wrong, it then became about him running the ball but not running it right.

:lame:
yea, all those DMC up the middle plays were used to setup players for success.

Hell ... DMC at running back was big bucket of fail.


Poor Todd

[milkman]

Were we better with Weis?

What did Haley do to make us better?

I am not debating Haley vs. Weis.

I am simply pointing out that the polish comes off the turd when facing good teams.

[Black Bob]

That's on the players. You questioned Haley's committment to the run. When I proved to you that were wrong, it then became about him running the ball but not running it right.

:lame:

The running game is about attempts, YPC, and time of possession. I stated over and over that it was about running the ball EFFECTIVELY. I even referenced the way Weis split the carries with Jones and how Muir did the same thing against Green Bay. I am looking at the whole picture man.

[Chiefnj2]

I just don't think we were looking for a first round receiver heading into that draft. I don't believe that. .

Of course they were looking at reciever. They had to pull someone off the street 3 days before their playoff game to be the #2 receiver against Baltimore. Baltimore double covered Bowe and KC had no passing game. They desperately needed a receiver especially with Bowe's contract situation.

[DaWolf]

Jones was also done last year, our depth consisted of Jackie Battle, our OL started an old and undersized center, an out of shape guard, and Barry freaking Richardson. And Cassel is great at producing three and outs. Not a great combo for TOP...

[htismaqe]

yea, all those DMC up the middle plays were used to setup players for success.

Hell ... DMC at running back was big bucket of fail.


Poor Todd

DMC was at RB under Crennel too. In fact, his highest number of carries for the ENTIRE SEASON was while Crennel was head coach.

So try again.

[htismaqe]

The running game is about attempts, YPC, and time of possession. I stated over and over that it was about running the ball EFFECTIVELY. I even referenced the way Weis split the carries with Jones and how Muir did the same thing against Green Bay. I am looking at the whole picture man.

Haley did the SAME THING.

The fact is, you're acting like something changed dramatically with the running game when Haley was fired and that's simply not true.

What changed was the QB and that alone accounted for the massive difference.

[Chiefnj2]

DMC was at RB under Crennel too. In fact, his highest number of carries for the ENTIRE SEASON was while Crennel was head coach.

So try again.

What were the options?

[htismaqe]

What were the options?

The same as they were when Haley was head coach.

[Black Bob]

I am not debating Haley vs. Weis.

I am simply pointing out that the polish comes off the turd when facing good teams.

Some said it was the talent. Some said it was the schedule. Some said it was the coach.

What you need to realize is that the question was answered last season.

If Pioli thougt it was the QB, he wouldn't have fired Haley.

It was about the coach and that's why Haley was fired MID-SEASON. His playcalling and game planning kept us from winning.

Pioli felt we had the talent despite the injuries. Hell, he signed a QB who won two out of three for us. Consider that none of those three teams had losing seasons and two of them were playoff teams that we beat.

Todd Haley was driving us into the ground.

[Mr. Laz]

The same as they were when Haley was head coach.
no ... no, they weren't.

Haley had the choice of how to use DMC from the very beginning. Unless Pioli FORCED him to to use DMC at running back. :eek:


Crennel had the choice of moving a guy in the middle of the season after he had been practicing/playing at RB.

not even in the same universe as 'the same'


proof by the the fact that DMC is now a WR and only a WR.

[htismaqe]

Some said it was the talent. Some said it was the schedule. Some said it was the coach.

What you need to realize is that the question was answered last season.

If Pioli thougt it was the QB, he wouldn't have fired Haley.

It was about the coach and that's why Haley was fired MID-SEASON. His playcalling and game planning kept us from winning.

Pioli felt we had the talent despite the injuries. Hell, he signed a QB who won two out of three for us. Consider that none of those three teams had losing seasons and two of them were playoff teams that we beat.

Todd Haley was driving us into the ground.

And what will be the excuse when the team under Romeo isn't really any better?

[ChiefsCountry]

Of course they were looking at reciever. They had to pull someone off the street 3 days before their playoff game to be the #2 receiver against Baltimore. Baltimore double covered Bowe and KC had no passing game. They desperately needed a receiver especially with Bowe's contract situation.

No shit, not to mention here we had WR as a position to target in 2011 draft for the Chiefs back to 2009 draft.

[htismaqe]

no ... no, they weren't.

Haley had the choice of how to use DMC from the very beginning. Unless Pioli FORCED him to to use DMC at running back. :eek:


Crennel had the choice of moving a guy in the middle of the season after he had been practicing/playing at RB.

not even in the same universe as 'the same'


proof by the the fact that DMC is now a WR and only a WR.

If RAC didn't want to use DMC at RB, why did he get 12 carries in the final game of the season?

Why wasn't he using McClain? After all, according to Bob, it was all Todd Haley's fault that McClain wasn't running the ball.

The excuse-making here is hilarious.

[Black Bob]

Haley did the SAME THING.

The fact is, you're acting like something changed dramatically with the running game when Haley was fired and that's simply not true.

What changed was the QB and that alone accounted for the massive difference.

The time of possession changed. The style of running play changed. The distribution of the ball changed. It's the way Haley tried to run outside the tackles all year after he was gone. Muir ran up the middle. Battle should have been running up the middle. it was the little things.

What about the way we used McCluster in those games? Muir put him in space and he was successful. Haley tried to run him out of the shotgun over and over. It was ****ing stupid.

How did the league's best offense look against our defense when our guys could get a drink of gatorade?

[Chiefnj2]

If RAC didn't want to use DMC at RB, why did he get 12 carries in the final game of the season?

.

Because even as poor of a HB that Dex is/was (especially when asked to run up the gut) he was still the teams best option at that point in the year. IIRC he had a higher ypc than the other starters.

It doesn't change the fact that Haley shouldn't have put him there at the start of the 2011 season and misused him.

[Sorter]

no ... no, they weren't.

Haley had the choice of how to use DMC from the very beginning. Unless Pioli FORCED him to to use DMC at running back..

Pioli didn't force him to use him at RB. DMC was Haley's pick. This seems clear to me because the Steelers drafted Rainey, who has identical skill sets and similar size to DMC and appears to being utilized in the same manner as McCluster was when Haley was here.

[milkman]

Some said it was the talent. Some said it was the schedule. Some said it was the coach.

What you need to realize is that the question was answered last season.

If Pioli thougt it was the QB, he wouldn't have fired Haley.

It was about the coach and that's why Haley was fired MID-SEASON. His playcalling and game planning kept us from winning.

Pioli felt we had the talent despite the injuries. Hell, he signed a QB who won two out of three for us. Consider that none of those three teams had losing seasons and two of them were playoff teams that we beat.

Todd Haley was driving us into the ground.

We won against two teams with winning records with a QB not named Matt Cassel.

His record of losing against playoff and winning teams goes back to his first starting with the Patriots.

This isn't a trend that started in KC.
It is a trend that continued in KC.

I am not going to argue that Todd Haley wasn't part of the problem, but until Matt Cassel shows that he can make accurate throws consistently, that he can push the ball downfield, that he can make more than one read, that he can stand in the pocket rather abandon it due to phantom pressure, the problem with this offense, and the biggest problem with this team remains Matt Cassel.

[Black Bob]

And what will be the excuse when the team under Romeo isn't really any better?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's 100% on Cassel now. We have the talent, the o-line, and the playbook is tailored to him. He also gets to change the plays. This is it for him. Hunt, Pioli, Crennel, and Daboll have all put him in a position to win now.

[Black Bob]

We won against two teams with winning records with a QB not named Matt Cassel.

His record of losing against playoff and winning teams goes back to his first starting with the Patriots.

This isn't a trend that started in KC.
It is a trend that continued in KC.

I am not going to argue that Todd Haley wasn't part of the problem, but until Matt Cassel shows that he can make accurate throws consistently, that he can push the ball downfield, that he can make more than one read, that he can stand in the pocket rather abandon it due to phantom pressure, the problem with this offense, and the biggest problem with this team remains Matt Cassel.

I know all this and agree that he sucks against good teams. I have said it many times. However, if Clark and Scott thought it was a quarterback problem, then why did they fire Haley?

[milkman]

The time of possession changed. The style of running play changed. The distribution of the ball changed. It's the way Haley tried to run outside the tackles all year after he was gone. Muir ran up the middle. Battle should have been running up the middle. it was the little things.

What about the way we used McCluster in those games? Muir put him in space and he was successful. Haley tried to run him out of the shotgun over and over. It was ****ing stupid.

How did the league's best offense look against our defense when our guys could get a drink of gatorade?

The time of possessio changed because Orton was able to convert thrid downs.

Running lanes and the edges opened up because the defense had to respect Orton's ability to push the ball downfield.

[htismaqe]

Because even as poor of a HB that Dex is/was (especially when asked to run up the gut) he was still the teams best option at that point in the year. IIRC he had a higher ypc than the other starters.

It doesn't change the fact that Haley shouldn't have put him there at the start of the 2011 season and misused him.

RAC benched Tyler Palko immediately. He could have done the same with Dex.

Apply the standards evenly or not at all.

Todd Haley is not the root of all evil.

[milkman]

I know all this and agree that he sucks against good teams. I have said it many times. However, if Clark and Scott thought it was a quarterback problem, then why did they fire Haley?

Because Haley, as the face of the organization,, was an embarrasment.

[htismaqe]

Pioli didn't force him to use him at RB. DMC was Haley's pick. This seems clear to me because the Steelers drafted Rainey, who has identical skill sets and similar size to DMC and appears to being utilized in the same manner as McCluster was when Haley was here.

Then they'll be cutting DMC here shortly, right?

[htismaqe]

I know all this and agree that he sucks against good teams. I have said it many times. However, if Clark and Scott thought it was a quarterback problem, then why did they fire Haley?

Because he was fucking crazy. Melting down on the sideline and being a public embarrassment.

Remember, the fired him WITH CAUSE. Which means they had a much better reason to let him go than just "he wasn't getting it done".

[Mr. Laz]

If RAC didn't want to use DMC at RB, why did he get 12 carries in the final game of the season?

Why wasn't he using McClain? After all, according to Bob, it was all Todd Haley's fault that McClain wasn't running the ball.

The excuse-making here is hilarious.
they way you bounce around shifting and dancing desperately trying to defend Haley is hilarious.

Crennel is a defensive guy ... that fact that he didn't make dramatic changes on the offensive side of the ball in mid-season is not surprising. Especially since Haley insisted on controlling much of the offense himself.

They basically fired the HC and OC with 3 games to go.

Your position that a DC should make major personnel changes on the offensive side of the ball with so few games to go is absurd. Just goes to show how desperate the "Haley is a victim" group as become.

McCluster was drafted in 2010 and put at WR by Weis

Weis gone, 2011 Haley used him almost exclusively at RB(even before injury to Charles)

2012 Dabol using DMC at WR

Many people (including myself) said the DMC had to succeed as a WR to make the 2nd round pick worth it. Haley didn't see it that way.

[Black Bob]

Because he was ****ing crazy. Melting down on the sideline and being a public embarrassment.

Remember, the fired him WITH CAUSE. Which means they had a much better reason to let him go than just "he wasn't getting it done".

Good point. I really hated the guy and he was missing some screws. However, it was more than just an embarrassment. It was about a lack of good judgement and the inability to adapt and overcome.

[htismaqe]

they way you bounce around shifting and dancing desperately trying to defend Haley is hilarious.

Defending Haley? ROFL

Classic deflection right there. I'm not defending Haley, I'm attacking Pioli. You know the guy that DESERVES the blame, the same guy that has a lot of Chiefs fans believing that Haley was the #1 problem with this team.

That's ok though. You can keep manufacturing this fake love affair I supposedly have with Haley and at the end of the season, when nothing has changed, maybe the fantasy of it all will make you feel better.

[jspchief]

or he could find a quality QB in the middle rounds and bring KC a perennial super bowl challenger type team.

but don't like any positive thoughts get in your wayOf course he could.

I was stating my opinion as to how I believe it will play out. As for positive thoughts, I hope I'm wrong and Pioli gets into the HoF due to his contributions in KC.

I thought getting Pioli was a huge win for the Chiefs. He had been coveted by teams for years, and finally pulling him away from NE and landing him in KC was very encouraging. Not only did he select the Chiefs among many offers, it also felt like we won at getting the big name for once.

That being said, I just haven't seen a lot that makes me believe he's going to be overly successful. I thought we were getting a guy that would take all he learned about winning, and use it to build the Chiefs into a winner. Instead, it appears that he's just trying to clone a recipe, without having the right ingredients.

I'm not going to ignore my head and my gut to go around wearing my heart on my sleeve. Do I want the Chiefs to win under Pioli? Hell yes. This roster won't have the NFL lifespan to survive another GM or even another HC. Last year was the year it needed to come together. I'm sure injuries played a part, but this team has not played with any degree of consistency in the last 3 years. Until they come out and play like world beaters every game, it's just a talented roster that's treading water.

[Black Bob]

RAC benched Tyler Palko immediately. He could have done the same with Dex.

Apply the standards evenly or not at all.

Todd Haley is not the root of all evil.

RAC made Palko inactive immediately. It wasn't just a benching.

RAC and anyone with a brain knows how to use Dex correctly. Get him the ball in space. Muir used screen passes in those last games that show up on the stat sheet as run attempts. He also used wheel plays to get him the ball. Is a coincidence that he had 5 catches for 89 yards against Oakland after Haley left? Also, notice we aren't using as a RB anymore.

Todd Haley is......well....is not the root of all evil. ROFL That was hard for me. Pioli is a sociopath imo. He did bug Haley's office imo. I believe that. Sociopath's can drive you mad. They put you in situations where there is no way you can win. It's your word against their word and the lies and manipulations they use are unreal. They are so outlandish that you come off looking like a fool. I have personally seen it before and Haley probably got the shaft in this regard. It's not just the way he treated Haley. It's the way he has changed the entire organization. He is operating in total control and is probably getting off on it. That's the kind of thing sociopaths do. However, Pioli does appear to be moving us in the right direction and at the pro level, that is more important than anything else.

That said, Todd Haley wasn't doing a good job. He ran a bad training camp, a bad playcalling system, and his playcalling was not a match for the talent we had.

[milkman]

RAC made Palko inactive immediately. It wasn't just a benching.

RAC and anyone with a brain knows how to use Dex correctly. Get him the ball in space. Muir used screen passes in those last games that show up on the stat sheet as run attempts. He also used wheel plays to get him the ball. Is a coincidence that he had 5 catches for 89 yards against Oakland after Haley left? Also, notice we aren't using as a RB anymore.

Todd Haley is......well....is not the root of all evil. ROFL That was hard for me. Pioli is a sociopath imo. He did bug Haley's office imo. I believe that. Sociopath's can drive you mad. They put you in situations where there is no way you can win. It's your word against their word and the lies and manipulations they use are unreal. They are so outlandish that you come off looking like a fool. I have personally seen it before and Haley probably got the shaft in this regard. It's not just the way he treated Haley. It's the way he has changed the entire organization. He is operating in total control and is probably getting off on it. That's the kind of thing sociopaths do. However, Pioli does appear to be moving us in the right direction and at the pro level, that is more important than anything else.

That said, Todd Haley wasn't doing a good job. He ran a bad training camp, a bad playcalling system, and his playcalling was not a match for the talent we had.

I can't even begin to count the number of times over the last three seasons that people commented how we were the worst team in the league at executing a screen.

Haley didn't fail to attempt to use McCluster on screens, they were just ineffective because defenses didn't respect Cassel's ability to go over the top.

You can't effectively screen if the defense is packed in to the LOS.

[whoman69]

Pioli just needs to get beyond this notion that Matt Cassel is even an adequate NFL starter.

[ChiefsCountry]

Pioli just needs to get beyond this notion that Matt Cassel is even an adequate NFL starter.

This. But his ego won't let him.

[Chiefnj2]

Screw Zorn while we're at it. He hasn't done crap for the development of Stanzi, Quinn or Cassel.

[jspchief]

Screw Zorn while we're at it. He hasn't done crap for the development of Stanzi, Quinn or Cassel.I was just thinking this the other day. There are/were a lot of posters around here that had a very high opinion of Zorn that I never really understood. Even going so far as to suggest he should be OC. The guy has one decent year with Flacco on his resume. That's it.

Don't know why anyone thinks he's good, but I sure as hell haven't seen it.