How would this team's front 7 personnel perform in a 4-3 defense?

[CoMoChief]

RE-Bailey
NT-Poe
DT-Jackson
LE-Hali

SLB-D.Johnson
MLB-Siler/Belcher
WLB-Houston

[Blick]

Houston is not a 4-3 OLB.

[Black Bob]

It would be a disaster imo.

[ModSocks]

Shitty.

Hali didn't blossom until he became a 34 OLB. And Houston would be a DE, not LB.

[CoMoChief]

Houston is not a 4-3 OLB.

Your mom goes to college...

[Black Bob]

Shitty.

Hali didn't blossom until he became a 34 OLB. And Houston would be a DE, not LB.

Houston did nothing as a DE at UGA until they switched to the 3-4 and he became an OLB.

[The Franchise]

Houston did nothing as a DE at UGA until they switched to the 3-4 and he became an OLB.

And in the 4-3....he would be a DE. Detox didn't say that he'd be a beast as a 4-3 DE. He's just saying that he's not a 4-3 OLB.

[Hammock Parties]

Bailey at RE? LMAO

[The Franchise]

Realistically.....it would look like this.

Houston - Powe - Poe - Hali

FA - DJ - FA

[L.A. Chieffan]

Bailey is apparently the new Scanlon

[TrebMaxx]

We could play Houston at the falcon! LMAO

[Deberg_1990]

Shitty.



How much sh*ttier can it look than it does now?

[mcaj22]

what it should have been

Babin-Jackson-Dorsey-Hali
Draft Pick/FA - DJ - Draft Pick/FA

but apparently that wasnt the right 4 year plan.

[DJ's left nut]

I don't think it would perform as poorly as most are suggesting. Powe/Poe in the middle would be a hell of a force and would command a lot of attention. Hali wouldn't be a beast like he's been as an OLB, but he'd still be an 8-10 sack rusher, IMO and possibly a little better. Houston is the real question but I'm not convinced he couldn't make that transition extremely well.

He'd need to bulk up a bit - probably to about 270, but why couldn't be he an elite pass-rusher as a DE? Look at Chris Clemons in Seattle - Houston is built almost exactly like Clemons right now and he has the frame to carry even more weight without losing his burst (which is also better than Clemons, IMO). Houston as Chris Clemons on the left side of the line would be an absolute nightmare matchup.

DJ would certainly end up in the middle, Belcher would be gone and we'd need to come up with a couple of good OLBs, to be sure. Alternatively, I think Houston could be a decent ROLB as well and you could see what Bailey could do with that LDE slot. Or even Jackson.

I will admit that I'm personally biased here - I don't like the 3-4. That said, I think this team has personnel that would be just fine if asked to set up a 4-3 front, provided that they have an off-season to fill the holes at the OLB spots.

[Blick]

Houston would need to add some weight to be a LE, too. He's listed at 258.

And Pest has it exactly right with the FA's flanking DJ. We don't have the LB's to run a 4-3.

You could make some intriguing combinations on the D-line, though.

[mcaj22]

I don't think it would perform as poorly as most are suggesting. Powe/Poe in the middle would be a hell of a force and would command a lot of attention. Hali wouldn't be a beast like he's been as an OLB, but he'd still be an 8-10 sack rusher, IMO and possibly a little better. Houston is the real question but I'm not convinced he couldn't make that transition extremely well.

He'd need to bulk up a bit - probably to about 270, but why couldn't be he an elite pass-rusher as a DE? Look at Chris Clemons in Seattle - Houston is built almost exactly like Clemons right now and he has the frame to carry even more weight without losing his burst (which is also better than Clemons, IMO). Houston as Chris Clemons on the left side of the line would be an absolute nightmare matchup.

DJ would certainly end up in the middle, Belcher would be gone and we'd need to come up with a couple of good OLBs, to be sure. Alternatively, I think Houston could be a decent ROLB as well and you could see what Bailey could do with that LDE slot. Or even Jackson.

I will admit that I'm personally biased here - I don't like the 3-4. That said, I think this team has personnel that would be just fine if asked to set up a 4-3 front, provided that they have an off-season to fill the holes at the OLB spots.

it also took Chris Clemons like 7 years and 4 teams to have a good season of production like you are comparing Houston to. No thanks

[Chiefnj2]

Does PFF have stats for the last game for how many times KC played a 34 as opposed to the sub package?

[The Franchise]

I don't think it would perform as poorly as most are suggesting. Powe/Poe in the middle would be a hell of a force and would command a lot of attention. Hali wouldn't be a beast like he's been as an OLB, but he'd still be an 8-10 sack rusher, IMO and possibly a little better. Houston is the real question but I'm not convinced he couldn't make that transition extremely well.

He'd need to bulk up a bit - probably to about 270, but why couldn't be he an elite pass-rusher as a DE? Look at Chris Clemons in Seattle - Houston is built almost exactly like Clemons right now and he has the frame to carry even more weight without losing his burst (which is also better than Clemons, IMO). Houston as Chris Clemons on the left side of the line would be an absolute nightmare matchup.

DJ would certainly end up in the middle, Belcher would be gone and we'd need to come up with a couple of good OLBs, to be sure. Alternatively, I think Houston could be a decent ROLB as well and you could see what Bailey could do with that LDE slot. Or even Jackson.

I will admit that I'm personally biased here - I don't like the 3-4. That said, I think this team has personnel that would be just fine if asked to set up a 4-3 front, provided that they have an off-season to fill the holes at the OLB spots.

This.

I think Houston has the first step to be a DE in the 4-3. And Powe/Poe in the middle would be great. Plus we could dump Dorsey and Jackson.

[DJ's left nut]

it also took Chris Clemons like 7 years and 4 teams to have a good season of production like you are comparing Houston to. No thanks

He had 8 sacks in his first year as a full-time starter in Oakland (third year in the league).

All that held him back for a lot of years was opportunity and then injury. Houston could easily be a bigger, faster version of him.

[FAX]

This is so frustrating.

I think I know why you would even consider something like this. You want to see the defense attack, but it's not designed that way ... even though guys like Dorsey have the potential skills and instinct to penetrate and disrupt. Sadly, the d-line is coached to occupy blockers ... period. They're space-taker-uppers. Essentially, we have one pass rusher in Hali and another potential guy in Houston (who I think could be great - he has a remarkable first step to the QB). Unfortunately, we can't do that and cover tight end quick slants simultaneously. And, without a push up the middle to collapse the pocket, blitzing is iffy, as well.

It will be interesting to see how Crennel solves this problem ... or if he can given his additional responsibilities as HC. It seems as though we were more aggressive last year ... at least, we occasionally were. Right now, the defense just looks goofy. We're running around like 11 palsy victims on a tilt-a-whirl. Especially in subs.

FAX

[mcaj22]

He had 8 sacks in his first year as a full-time starter in Oakland (third year in the league).

All that held him back for a lot of years was opportunity and then injury. Houston could easily be a bigger, faster version of him.


but because of his build he bounced around to like 4 teams trying to fit him in their scheme and he couldnt do it until the Seahawks

8 sacks isnt much compared to what really good pass rushers can do these days.

he didnt fit in Oakland or Philly.

[FAX]

Houston would need to add some weight to be a LE, too. He's listed at 258.

And Pest has it exactly right with the FA's flanking DJ. We don't have the LB's to run a 4-3.

You could make some intriguing combinations on the D-line, though.

I hate the idea of turning Houston into a DE ... particularly if he were forced to gain weight. That's a career killing move, man. His strength is his quickness. Don't screw with that. Please.

FAX

[Chiefnj2]

In the sub package isn't it basically 4 down "lineman" where Hali, Houston and 2 interiors (not two gapping) rushing the passer?

[DJ's left nut]

but because of his build he bounced around to like 4 teams trying to fit him in their scheme and he couldnt do it until the Seahawks

8 sacks isnt much compared to what really good pass rushers can do these days.

he didnt fit in Oakland or Philly.

If you have 2 8-10 sack pass rushers on both ends of your line, along with over 600 lbs of humanity in the middle (including a guy in Poe that could be a monster as an under-tackle), you have a hellacious D-Line.

[beach tribe]

Horrible

[Sofa King]

We would have to trade for Jared Allen.

I'd offer them Branden Albert (contract is up after this year), Jamaal Charles (AP is hurt and they could use the help), and Jake O'Connell (this trade feels like it needs a TE).

[Quesadilla Joe]

Houston could play SAM in the 4-3 if they used him like Denver uses Von Miller.

[milkman]

I am not sure why anyone thinks that highly of Bailey.

I still think the personnel on this defense is better suited to a 1 gap 34.

Powe in the middle, flanked by Poe on the right and Jackson on the left.

Shoot the gaps and attck.

This 2 gap, and Romeo's sub package rely too heavily on outstanding discipline within the system.

One player fails in his assignment, and you have a defense that can get blown up far too easily and often.

[FAX]

I am not sure why anyone thinks that highly of Bailey.

I still think the personnel on this defense is better suited to a 1 gap 34.

Powe in the middle, flanked by Poe on the right and Jackson on the left.

Shoot the gaps and attck.

This 2 gap, and Romeo's sub package rely too heavily on outstanding discipline within the system.

One player fails in his assignment, and you have a defense that can get blown up far too easily and often.

As I've read, Romeo prefers the "bend don't break" version. He likes to be patient and wait for the offense to make a mistake. That, I have come to understand, is his overall philosophy. Low risk. FGs are good things.

FAX

[Chiefnj2]

The sub package is the problem, not the 34 base.

[milkman]

The sub package is the problem, not the 34 base.

No the base is a problem too.

Once your NT gets blown up, as has been happening consistently with Poe in the two games thus far, your defense is fucked.

[Blick]

I hate the idea of turning Houston into a DE ... particularly if he were forced to gain weight. That's a career killing move, man. His strength is his quickness. Don't screw with that. Please.

FAX

Normally I'm inclined to agree with that...when dealing with DT's. I never liked the idea of Dorsey adding weight to be a nose tackle, for example.

But I agree with DJ's left nut in regard to Houston. It would only be about 10 pounds, and he has the frame and athleticism to handle that change without losing his quickness, IMO.

[ChiefsCountry]

Raise your hand if you didn't want the team to switch to the 3-4 in the first place. There was alot of guys I wanted to draft since 2009 that would have fit nicely with this team.

[Sorter]

It could work. You'd need at least 2 new starting LBs.
Personally, I'd have thiskind of personnel

De-Hali
DT-Powe
DT-Poe
DE-Houston/Bailey

Sam-Belcher/Siler/Draft pick
Mike-Draft Pick
Will-DJ

You could have a rotation of Bailey inside at the 3-tech on passing downs as well. I think he'd do better there, but wouldn't be horrible as a LDE in a 4-3.

[Sorter]

Raise your hand if you didn't want the team to switch to the 3-4 in the first place. There was alot of guys I wanted to draft since 2009 that would have fit nicely with this team.

Not me. I love the 3-4, especially if it is the 1-gap.

4-3 is a fine front, I just prefer the 3-4. To each his own, I suppose.

[The Franchise]

I'll get shot for this....but if we're high enough to grab someone like Geno Smith. I would trade back into the first round for Teo from ND (if we switched back to a 4-3).

[Sorter]

Additionally, one could try to make Houston drop to 240 and play Sam, kinda like the Broncos do with Von Miller. I don't think Justin is good enough in coverage to do that but one could try it.

[Sorter]

I'll get shot for this....but if we're high enough to grab someone like Geno Smith. I would trade back into the first round for Teo from ND (if we switched back to a 4-3).

Not a bad idea. I'd rather us grab another corner who is at least 6'1 or another pass rusher, but Teo is not a bad pick.

[ModSocks]

The sub package is the problem, not the 34 base.

This.

[ChiefsCountry]

Not me. I love the 3-4, especially if it is the 1-gap.

4-3 is a fine front, I just prefer the 3-4. To each his own, I suppose.

I fucking hate the 3-4 defense. Always have. Give me an agressive 4-3 anyday.

[ModSocks]

No the base is a problem too.

Once your NT gets blown up, as has been happening consistently with Poe in the two games thus far, your defense is ****ed.

Our base hasn't really been getting blown up though.

Poe is getting blown up in our subpackage with 2 down linemen.

Our base has been able to hold the PoA reasonably well.

[milkman]

It could work. You'd need at least 2 new starting LBs.
Personally, I'd have thiskind of personnel

De-Hali
DT-Powe
DT-Poe
DE-Houston/Bailey

Sam-Belcher/Siler/Draft pick
Mike-Draft Pick
Will-DJ

You could have a rotation of Bailey inside at the 3-tech on passing downs as well. I think he'd do better there, but wouldn't be horrible as a LDE in a 4-3.

I'm a Belcher supporter, but there's no way in hell I'd want him at Sam in a 4-3.

[Chiefnj2]

Our base hasn't really been getting blown up though.

Poe is getting blown up in our subpackage with 2 down linemen.

Our base has been able to hold the PoA reasonably well.

Exactly. If you just watch the Buffalo game highlights at nfl.com you can see its the sub package on the field for most of Buffalo's big gains.

[The Franchise]

Exactly. If you just watch the Buffalo game highlights at nfl.com you can see its the sub package on the field for most of Buffalo's big gains.

Then it's on Romeo for continually running that bullshit package. If you're getting killed......why continue to run it?

[milkman]

Our base hasn't really been getting blown up though.

Poe is getting blown up in our subpackage with 2 down linemen.

Our base has been able to hold the PoA reasonably well.

Poe has been getting blown up at the POA consistently, whether it's in the base or the sub package.

This is where people don't really understand how good Belcher has been.

He has taken on those blockers that the nose is supposed to be ocupying over the last 18 games, which has allowed DJ to be the playmaker he was last year.

Belcher is still handling that, but DJ has been out of position consistently in these first two games.

[Sorter]

Whoops. Meant to put him at Mike. To clarify further, I don't really want Belcher playing Mike in a 4-3 either. Just trying to assemble something with the roster we have.

He's not the worst Mike ever in our 3-4 though, provided he isn't asked to cover anyone.

Agree wholeheartedly. Hence, the Houston post.

[ModSocks]

Poe has been getting blown up at the POA consistently, whether it's in the base or the sub package.

This is where people don't really understand how good Belcher has been.

He has taken on those blockers that the nose is supposed to be ocupying over the last 18 games, which has allowed DJ to be the playmaker he was last year.

Belcher is still handling that, but DJ has been out of position consistently in these first two games.

I'll trust that you're right.

But even if you are right, in our base, we have guys like Dorsey, Jackson, and Belcher to make up for it.

In our Sub, all of those guys are off the field and they're getting gashed.

If im an opposing offense, i'd run draw plays against that package all damn day. I'd get them into 3rd in short, spread them out, and run right at them until they either:

A. Ditch the Package

or

B. Prove that they can stop it.

[Sorter]

If im an opposing offense, i'd run draw plays against that package all damn day. I'd get them into 3rd in short, spread them out, and run right at them until they either:
.

That was why we drafted Poe. To have a monster that could hypothetically push the pocket in our sub package and be able to stop the run, because we did/do get gashed in it.

It hasn't worked out very well for us so far.

[The Franchise]

That was why we drafted Poe. To have a monster that could hypothetically push the pocket in our sub package and be able to stop the run, because we did/do get gashed in it.

It hasn't worked out very well for us so far.

Poe would be fine if you're using him in a sub package like the nickel. Putting two down linemen is fucking moronic.

[FAX]

Poe would be fine if you're using him in a sub package like the nickel. Putting two down linemen is ****ing moronic.

While we're on the subject ... what, exactly, is the purpose and idea of that particular alignment? How is that benefiting us ... or, I should ask, what is Romeo attempting to achieve with 2 down linemen and 6 d-backs? Berry becomes a backer and we try to cover everybody except the running QB?

I'm a little confounded by the strategy here and would appreciate some illumination.

FAX

[Sorter]

No its not. A lot of teams run a nickel package that is either a 2-4-5/4-2-5.

For example, the 49ers run their nickel package with Justin Smith and I believe Ray Mcdonald as down lineman playing the 3 technique (What Bailey and Poe for us on passing downs). Then Aldon Smith lines up outside Justin Smith, usually playing the 7 tech. Same goes for Ahmad Brooks.

This is were they differ from us. Along with Patrick Willis, the 49ers have another ILB in Navarro Bowman who is elite vs. the run and can cover. They play their nickel with 2 ILBs, hence the 2-4 (or 4-2 if Aldon/Brooks have their hands in the dirt and you want to nitpick).

Instead of having a Navarro Bowman, we use Berry in his spot while still having 2 deep safeties (Ideally, Lewis and Elam/Menzie).

I don't want this to sound like I'm being a dick (honestly) but does that clear it up?

If you can have 4 guys who are good pass rushers and still have a minimum of 4 (2 down lineman, 2 ILB) who are good against the run, it is a fantastic front/alignment/whatever the fuck you decide to call it.

[mcaj22]

No its not. A lot of teams run a nickel package that is either a 2-4-5/4-2-5.

For example, the 49ers run their nickel package with Justin Smith and I believe Ray Mcdonald as down lineman playing the 3 technique (What Bailey and Poe for us on passing downs). Then Aldon Smith lines up outside Justin Smith, usually playing the 7 tech. Same goes for Ahmad Brooks.

This is were they differ from us. Along with Patrick Willis, the 49ers have another ILB in Navarro Bowman who is elite vs. the run and can cover. They play their nickel with 2 ILBs, hence the 2-4 (or 4-2 if Aldon/Brooks have their hands in the dirt and you want to nitpick).

Instead of having a Navarro Bowman, we use Berry in his spot while still having 2 deep safeties (Ideally, Lewis and Elam/Menzie).

I don't want this to sound like I'm being a dick (honestly) but does that clear it up?

If you can have 4 guys who are good pass rushers and still have a minimum of 4 (2 down lineman, 2 ILB) who are good against the run, it is a fantastic front/alignment/whatever the **** you decide to call it.


aka it's Pioli's fault.

awful drafting and FA acquisitions mean we are devoid of talent to be able to even pull off a competitive package like that on defense.

it's the sad truth.

we dont have two good deep safeties like the 49ers have. we have 1 good safety that we have to play at LBer, and the 49ers are fortunate to have two good LBers so they never have to drop a safety down. ever.

for a package that relies on good safety/secondary play and good LBers and depth Pioli has done an awful fucking job of acquiring that talent besides 1 guy.

[Sorter]

While we're on the subject ... what, exactly, is the purpose and idea of that particular alignment? How is that benefiting us ... or, I should ask, what is Romeo attempting to achieve with 2 down linemen and 6 d-backs? Berry becomes a backer and we try to cover everybody except the running QB?

I'm a little confounded by the strategy here and would appreciate some illumination.

FAX


The theory behind the 2-3-6 and the 2-4-5/4-2-5 (the latter being more prevalent in 4-3 teams) is that you can hypothetically have a 4 man rush, be able to stop the run by having your best ILB(or 2 ILBs if you're running the other nickel packages) and safety in the box. By having an additional safety, you typically increase your ability to cover TEs or additional wide receivers, as opposed to getting someone like Belcher matched up with Vernon Davis, Gates, or an inside guy like Victor Cruz. However, if your safety isn't good against the run, you can suffer from that. Typically though, the safety will be matched up with a TE/receiver and that leaves your ILB (DJ) to cover the running back, or spy.

Now, I think we drafted Menzie to replace where Berry is in this alignment. Menzie graded out last year by several to be the best nickel corner in college (in terms of coverage). What we wanted to do (again, just speculation) was be able to put Menzie in the box to improve coverage and have Berry back playing one of our deep zones (typically we play cover 5, 2 deep safeties with man under).

I already stated the reason we drafted Poe was to be able to push the pocket in this alignment and be able to stop the run. While he has shown flashes occasionally as a pass rusher in this alignment, he has struggled against the run. He's actually looked better against the run as our NT in our base "Odd" front. To me, this is to be expected with a prospect as raw as him.

Sorry if TL;DR but you'll probably be able to gain some insight with this post as to why we drafted the way we have since Pioli's gotten here. This is the defensive scheme Pioli feels most comfortable with as well as Romeo, which is why he was hired.

[Sorter]

aka it's Pioli's fault.

awful drafting and FA acquisitions mean we are devoid of talent to be able to even pull off a competitive package like that on defense.

it's the sad truth.

we dont have two good deep safeties like the 49ers have. we have 1 good safety that we have to play at LBer, and the 49ers are fortunate to have two good LBers so they never have to drop a safety down. ever.

for a package that relies on good safety/secondary play and good LBers and depth Pioli has done an awful ****ing job of acquiring that talent besides 1 guy.

I wouldn't say it has been awful drafting. Bailey, Lewis (if he could stay healthy), Menzie, Poe, and Berry, all fit this scheme IMO.

The problem is health, Poe not being very advanced right now and struggling in all aspects, and having exceptionally poor safety play right now.

I could be wrong about Crennel wanting to move Berry away from the line, but I do think having Menzie out is hurting us more than people realize. Not saying he would be an all-pro, but with him covering TEs/Receivers and Berry being able to either free lance in a Cover 1 Robber look or in a Cover 3, this defense would look much better than it does now, IMO.

[Aspengc8]

Poe has been getting blown up at the POA consistently, whether it's in the base or the sub package.

This is where people don't really understand how good Belcher has been.

He has taken on those blockers that the nose is supposed to be ocupying over the last 18 games, which has allowed DJ to be the playmaker he was last year.

Belcher is still handling that, but DJ has been out of position consistently in these first two games.

Not sure why you keep saying 'suppose to be occupying blockers' for the two gap system. If one of our lineman demand a double team, thats great, a LB is free. But the system is designed for our 3 DL to be responsible for 6 gaps. Thats why they play 0 technique on the OL so that just shed the block and make a play, to either side gap.

When they start making plays, they get doubled. Then the LB's start getting free shots.

Like the other dude said.. base isnt the issue, its the nickel packages getting diced.

[FAX]

Thanks, Mr. Sorter. I have a couple questions, but no time at the moment, so I'll defer for the time being.

But thanks for the information. Hopefully, when I get my questions answered, I'll have a better understanding of the logic behind this particular formation.

FAX

[Ace Gunner]

So, you think rushing 6 players in 43 is going to work better than rushing 6 players in 34.

Here's an idea -- get 6 players that can pass rush, because these idiots aren't doing shit either way.

[mcaj22]

I wouldn't say it has been awful drafting. Bailey, Lewis (if he could stay healthy), Menzie, Poe, and Berry, all fit this scheme IMO.

The problem is health, Poe not being very advanced right now and struggling in all aspects, and having exceptionally poor safety play right now.

I could be wrong about Crennel wanting to move Berry away from the line, but I do think having Menzie out is hurting us more than people realize. Not saying he would be an all-pro, but with him covering TEs/Receivers and Berry being able to either free lance in a Cover 1 Robber look or in a Cover 3, this defense would look much better than it does now, IMO.

menzie is like a 5th round pick

people put so much stock into late round picks being some sort of savior talent on this team when they dont even produce

poe and menzie ever panning out to anything would take even 3 years. By then guys like DJ, Tamba, Flowers will be well passed their prime or on their downswing.

adding developmental projects like that is what holds this team back. They arent talent you can plug in right now into the scheme and get results. Menzie, Poe, Lewis, etc is talent that is to be groomed and grow. Mixing that with PRIME present day talent just doesnt work.

[Ace Gunner]

Poe has been getting blown up at the POA consistently, whether it's in the base or the sub package.

This is where people don't really understand how good Belcher has been.

He has taken on those blockers that the nose is supposed to be ocupying over the last 18 games, which has allowed DJ to be the playmaker he was last year.

Belcher is still handling that, but DJ has been out of position consistently in these first two games.

QF the fucking T

[Sorter]

menzie is like a 5th round pick

people put so much stock into late round picks being some sort of savior talent on this team when they dont even produce

poe and menzie ever panning out to anything would take even 3 years. By then guys like DJ, Tamba, Flowers will be well passed their prime or on their downswing.

Every team gets a late round pick to perform each year. Players fall for dumb reasons. ****, look at Brandon Carr. Kam Chancellor was a 5th round pick, who in his first year as a starter produced.

The draft is different than what it used to be. IMO,you don't draft guys in the late rounds just to be "developmental guys". I mean, you definitely do with some but you're also trying to find guys who can contribute right away on special teams and sub packages on offense/defense. Mixing these guys in so they get game time, experience and build their confidence via actually contributing does a lot more for a player than sitting on the bench.

Everyone has a different philosophy in selecting players in the draft. If you disagree with what I posted, that's fine. You're not a troll, I agree with a lot of what you post and are entitled to your own opinion.

[Sorter]

Thanks, Mr. Sorter. I have a couple questions, but no time at the moment, so I'll defer for the time being.

But thanks for the information. Hopefully, when I get my questions answered, I'll have a better understanding of the logic behind this particular formation.

FAX

Well, when you have time, shoot me a PM or something if you have some more questions. Really, once you understand this defense and the philosophy behind it , it becomes easier to try and see what kind of draft prospects and FA Pioli values/drafts.

[Buehler445]

This.

I think Houston has the first step to be a DE in the 4-3. And Powe/Poe in the middle would be great. Plus we could dump Dorsey and Jackson.

Wasn't everybody here in agreement that Dorsey is a man among boys as a penetrating DT? Why would we dump him?

[The Franchise]

Wasn't everybody here in agreement that Dorsey is a man among boys as a penetrating DT? Why would we dump him?

Because this is the last year of his contract.

[Sorter]

^^^This

[whoman69]

The biggest problem with this defense is we have too many guys who are one dimensional. Teams are not always going to run against your base defense and pass against your sub package. Teams like SF and Atlanta have LBs that can stay on the field for passing downs. We have one guy who can and two that convert to lineman.

[Sorter]

The biggest problem with this defense is we have too many guys who are one dimensional. Teams are not always going to run against your base defense and pass against your sub package. Teams like SF and Atlanta have LBs that can stay on the field for passing downs. We have one guy who can and two that convert to lineman.

Well, in all fairness, if the two you're talking about are Tamba/Houston, the 49ers do the same thing with them (Aldon Smith/Ahmad Brooks) that we do.

But as for your first part about being 1-dimensional, that is why we drafted Poe. Gillberry was 1-D and so are Tyson and Dorsey. Bailey is as well for now, though he has a chance to improve against the run playing the 3-tech. Playing him as a 5-tech in a 2 gap is a waste.

However, you're always going to have 1-D guys because no team is perfect. The trick is using them as best of their abilities.

[Chiefnj2]

Who has been the other 2 down lineman with Poe? I don't think I've seen Powe on the field too often.

[Sorter]

In our sub package (2-3-6) the two down lineman playing the 3-tech are Poe and Pitoitua.
Usually it is Bailey and Poe but Bailey has been injured.

In our base 3-4 front, our 3 down lineman are Dorsey, Poe, and Jackson.

[RustShack]

Studebaker-Siler-DJ

Houston-Dorsey-Poe-Hali

[Chiefnj2]

In our sub package (2-3-6) the two down lineman playing the 3-tech are Poe and Pitoitua.
Usually it is Bailey and Poe but Bailey has been injured.

In our base 3-4 front, our 3 down lineman are Dorsey, Poe, and Jackson.

Powe should be playing for Pitoitua.

[Sorter]

Powe should be playing for Pitoitua.

I would bet that Romeo begins replacing him with Powe for our sub package slowly over the next 3 games if Bailey isn't healthy.

[listopencil]

I still think the personnel on this defense is better suited to a 1 gap 34.



Yeah, I've thought that for a while now.

[Sorter]

I think everyone but Scott Pioli and Romeo think that we should be a 1-gap 3-4.

[Chiefnj2]

If DJ starts off slow they need to pull him and at least try Siler or Jones.

[Sorter]

Jones is an OLB, so that wouldn't work.

As for DJ, one of the reasons I had for drafting Kuechly last year was so we could have 2 ILBs who were good in coverage and against the run. Additonally, I wanted him as insurance. If DJ goes down, our D is going to look even more horrific. I did want Mercilus over Kuechly though; Kuechly was not close to being my first option, more of a last resort depending on the way the board shaped up.

[Chiefnj2]

Jones is an OLB, so that wouldn't work.

As for DJ, one of the reasons I had for drafting Kuechly last year was so we could have 2 ILBs who were good in coverage and against the run. Additonally, I wanted him as insurance. If DJ goes down, our D is going to look even more horrific. I did want Mercilus over Kuechly though; Kuechly was not close to being my first option, more of a last resort depending on the way the board shaped up.

Not to sound rude, but I don't care what position Jones is. DJ cannot move and is making mental mistakes. KC needs someone (and not Studebaker or Greenwood) who isn't a gargantuan liability in the pass and who can maintain their gap against the run.

[Sorter]

Understandable. However, if you want someone who won't be a liability in coverage and can play the run, then a journeyman 3-4 OLB is not your answer. DJ, for as poor of a season he's had thus far is still far and away the best guy we have playing ILB, especially when it comes to coverage. If you're talking about benching him or sitting him to send a message, then I'm all for that. Expecting Edgar Jones to be better than DJ in any aspect is a bit much, IMO.

[DJ's left nut]

Edgar Jones is actually our primary backup...

Edgar Jones.

Please tell me more about the spectacular depth that Scott Pioli has amassed here in Kansas City...

[Sorter]

Edgar Jones is actually our primary backup...

Edgar Jones.

Please tell me more about the spectacular depth that Scott Pioli has amassed here in Kansas City...

ROFLROFLROFL

We literally have 3 pass-rushers on this team (Tamba, Houston, and Bailey). 4 if you count Poe.

:banghead:

[Chiefnj2]

Understandable. However, if you want someone who won't be a liability in coverage and can play the run, then a journeyman 3-4 OLB is not your answer. DJ, for as poor of a season he's had thus far is still far and away the best guy we have playing ILB, especially when it comes to coverage. If you're talking about benching him or sitting him to send a message, then I'm all for that. Expecting Edgar Jones to be better than DJ in any aspect is a bit much, IMO.

DJ has been atrocious at pass defense these last two games. Clay gif'd him up over at Arrowhead pride for the Atlanta game and I'm pretty sure he was just as bad against Buffalo.

[MahiMike]

This is very good question. If we can never get the 3-4 to work, let's go to something else. I don't care if it's a 5-2.

[Sorter]

The thing is, there are several pieces here to have an outstanding 1-gap 3-4. The 2-gap is holding us back IMO.

[The Franchise]

The thing is, there are several pieces here to have an outstanding 1-gap 3-4. The 2-gap is holding us back IMO.

It's been stated multiple times by multiple posters.....but THIS.

[Sorter]

Can we just sticky "We need to be a 1-gap. We currently are a 2-gap" so we don't have to type this over and over again?

[Aspengc8]

Can we just sticky "We need to be a 1-gap. We currently are a 2-gap" so we don't have to type this over and over again?

2 gap works if your D-line can actually shed a block and make a play.

DL Can't shed a block = no reason to get doubled = Lb's have to fight of lineman.

DL shed's block and makes play = OL starts doubling = Lb's make plays all day.

It has nothing to do with "taking up blockers".. If they are 1v1 they need to make a play, and that will start drawing attention. That's the benefit of 2 gap.

[FAX]

2 gap works if your D-line can actually shed a block and make a play.

DL Can't shed a block = no reason to get doubled = Lb's have to fight of lineman.

DL shed's block and makes play = OL starts doubling = Lb's make plays all day.

It has nothing to do with "taking up blockers".. If they are 1v1 they need to make a play, and that will start drawing attention. That's the benefit of 2 gap.

Exactomundo.

FAX

[Sorter]

Technically, yes. However, our 2-gap doesn't attempt to get pressure from our base alignment. Additionally, you can incorporate fire-zones. For example, the Ravens are 2 gap team that has their DE's line up in the 4-tech in their odd front. However, their DEs can rush the passer and drop into coverage in their "odd" front. They use a variety of zone-blitzes from their base 3-4 to get pressure.

Now, I would be fine with us staying in the 2-gap if we hired someone from Baltimore to run our D and our player personnel. However, it is easier to find someone who is good at teaching the 1-gap as their are simply more of them available.

[Aspengc8]

Technically, yes. However, our 2-gap doesn't attempt to get pressure from our base alignment. Additionally, you can incorporate fire-zones. For example, the Ravens are 2 gap team that has their DE's line up in the 4-tech in their odd front. However, their DEs can rush the passer and drop into coverage in their "odd" front. They use a variety of zone-blitzes from their base 3-4 to get pressure.

Now, I would be fine with us staying in the 2-gap if we hired someone from Baltimore to run our D and our player personnel. However, it is easier to find someone who is good at teaching the 1-gap as their are simply more of them available.

Once you move ur DL away from a 0 tech- its no longer a 2 gap scheme. I'm all for us moving to a 1 gap system.. fire zone scheme is great, as are many other 1 gap systems. Anything to get away from 2 gap because our DL cannot consistently require double teams or shed blocks. If we had beast LB's that can get off blocks I wouldnt care so much.. but DJ and Belcher are not built like brick sh1thouses to take these dudes on every play.

[Sorter]

DJ and Belcher are not built like brick sh1thouses to take these dudes on every play.

Is it just me, or when you really look at our players compared to Balt, Pitt, 49ers, our team physically looks small.

[Aspengc8]

Is it just me, or when you really look at our players compared to Balt, Pitt, 49ers, our team physically looks small.

I've noticed this as well. They must be on p90X.

[FAX]

Is it just me, or when you really look at our players compared to Balt, Pitt, 49ers, our team physically looks small.

It's the uniforms. We've always looked smaller than teams with dark uniforms.

It's some kind of optician's allusion.

FAX

[Hammock Parties]

Is it just me, or when you really look at our players compared to Balt, Pitt, 49ers, our team physically looks small.

This is a great point that is basically never brought up.

This franchise is run by fucking morons.

[Sorter]

I hope that is what it is. Maybe it is wrong for me to compare us to the 3 most physical teams in the NFL right now, but damn, we don't look nearly as large or as explosive as those 3 IMO.

[O.city]

We don't look explosive because we have a defensive coordinator/HC set on playing a defense that relies on reading and reacting to what the offense is doing in it's base set.


It's crazy when you watch a team like the 9ers play defense. They are constantly attacking and having multiple guys around the ball.

Shit, they play 6 or 7 guys in the box to stop the run. We have to have 8 or more.