Clark caught between a rock and a hard place

[Fat Elvis]

Clark is in a Catch-22. If he lets Pioli go now, there will be the perception among the fans, owners, and the NFL in general that he doesn't really make the decisions around here- he will be percieved as beeing subject to the whims of the fans. On the other hand, if he doesn't let Pioli go, he will have totally alienated the entire fan base who makes his team profitable (outside of TV revenues). The Chiefs have made one PR blunder after another this year and fans are on the verge of outright revolt.

In all seriousness, if you are Clark- and view this purely as a business decision- what is your next move?

[BossChief]

This definitely hasn't been discussed and was absolutely worthy of a new thread.

[KCrockaholic]

Ugh you make the decision that is best for your franchise. In this case, it's firing Pioli. And who cares if it makes it look like the fans persuaded the decision. The fans are who SHOULD be making this decision.

[tk13]

This definitely hasn't been discussed and was absolutely worthy of a new thread.

Says the guy who made thread #2138024702 about Stanzi a couple days ago.

[-King-]

Says the guy who made thread #2138024702 about Stanzi a couple days ago.

LMAO

[GloryDayz]

Piano wire. Noose. Chair....

[BossChief]

Says the guy who made thread #2138024702 about Stanzi a couple days ago.

I won't make another one...but I will bump my Stanzi should start thread in about a month.

[Hammock Parties]

Deciding that you're not going to give more money to a loser is not a hard decision.

[Mr. Laz]

Ugh you make the decision that is best for your franchise. In this case, it's firing Pioli. And who cares if it makes it look like the fans persuaded the decision. The fans are who SHOULD be making this decision.
:doh!: nope

You sit down with Pioli and make it perfectly clear that the Cassel experiment is over and he is to make getting a stud QB his top priority right now. That includes possibly trading Bowe or whomever, before the deadline, to a team that looks to have a top draft pick next year.

Also IF Crennel is staying, which is probably has to, then they need to hire a DC that can not only help Crennel but can augment the defensive scheme with the more aggressive plays(ala 1-gap plays).

despite all the rumor/media/make-believe bullshit that's being talk about around here, the 2 things we really need are a franchise QB and improved HC coaching.

It might not be ideal, but blowing it all up again is probably not a good idea so soon either.

Give us QB Geno Smith and DC Kirby Smart and we're good.

[Hammock Parties]

Pioli's gone Laz.

His drafts are average, his QB and HC decisions are monumentally stupid, and he's a PR nightmare.

[pr_capone]

Clark is in a Catch-22. If he lets Pioli go now, there will be the perception among the fans, owners, and the NFL in general that he doesn't really make the decisions around here- he will be percieved as beeing subject to the whims of the fans. On the other hand, if he doesn't let Pioli go, he will have totally alienated the entire fan base who makes his team profitable (outside of TV revenues). The Chiefs have made one PR blunder after another this year and fans are on the verge of outright revolt.

In all seriousness, if you are Clark- and view this purely as a business decision- what is your next move?

You have to let Pioli go. There really is no other option open to him here.

Keeping him around until the end of the season will only serve to alienate the fans. The knowledgeable ones anyway. The Chiefs will always have fans no matter how this all turns out BUT, they will no longer have the majority of the old school that know the ins and outs of the team... instead they will have a bunch of people for whom season tickets are a status symbol instead of a symbol of dedication to the team.

He really has little choice.

[chiefzilla1501]

:doh!: nope

You sit down with Pioli and make it perfectly clear that the Cassel experiment is over and he is to make getting a stud QB his top priority right now. That includes possibly trading Bowe or whomever, before the deadline, to a team that looks to have a top draft pick next year.

Also IF Crennel is staying, which is probably has to, then they need to hire a DC that can not only help Crennel but can augment the defensive scheme with the more aggressive plays(ala 1-gap plays).

despite all the rumor/media/make-believe bullshit that's being talk about around here, the 2 things we really need are a franchise QB and improved HC coaching.

It might not be ideal, but blowing it all up again is probably not a good idea so soon either.

Give us QB Geno Smith and DC Kirby Smart and we're good.

Wow, your head is in the sand.

No head coach wants to fucking work in Kansas city. No defensive coordinator or offensive coordinator wants to work here. I can't imagine what kind of reject coach we'd have to get that would agree to being micro managed all the way to the starting lineup setup.

And as long as pioli is there,arrowhead will be dead. You can't shut the media out and not think that maybe the media helped create some excitement around the team.

There is nothing good that comes of keeping pioli. I generally like the team he has built, but some of the damage is unrepairable unless he leaves.

[bevischief]

Clark is in a Catch-22. If he lets Pioli go now, there will be the perception among the fans, owners, and the NFL in general that he doesn't really make the decisions around here- he will be percieved as beeing subject to the whims of the fans. On the other hand, if he doesn't let Pioli go, he will have totally alienated the entire fan base who makes his team profitable (outside of TV revenues). The Chiefs have made one PR blunder after another this year and fans are on the verge of outright revolt.

In all seriousness, if you are Clark- and view this purely as a business decision- what is your next move?

We need a good slogan for the next banner.

[KCrockaholic]

Chiefzilla nailed it. Pioli is the cancer of the Chiefs. He must go.

[Mr. Laz]

No head coach wants to fucking work in Kansas city.

No defensive coordinator or offensive coordinator wants to work here. I can't imagine what kind of reject coach we'd have to get that would

agree to being micro managed all the way to the starting lineup setup.

And as long as pioli is there,arrowhead will be dead.

You can't shut the media out and not think that maybe the media helped create some excitement around the team.
all made-up, tinfoil hat bullshit

There isn't any evident to backup the Dr. Evil/Pioli bullshit ... it's just crazy fans who have talked themselves into believe shit because they are pissed.

[Tonka83]

I can't imagine any scenario ever, that I would want Pioli drafting our QOF.
I could go on a glue sniffing binge and make better decisions than that oaf.

[Mr. Laz]

Chiefzilla nailed it. Pioli is the cancer of the Chiefs. He must go.
based on what?

the rambling bullshit of Bad Guy's janitor friend who got pissed off because Pioli made him pick up a gum wrapper?

please ... WE KNOW NOTHING concrete about what is going on in Arrowhead.

people around here have just gone paranoid nuts

[KCrockaholic]

all made-up, tinfoil hat bullshit

There isn't any evident to backup the Dr. Evil/Pioli bullshit ... it's just crazy fans who have talked themselves into believe shit because they are pissed.

Why has nearly every single hire been guys he's worked with previously? We won't get new blood in here unless they are ok with being micro-managed. You're in denial about Pioli.

[chiefzilla1501]

based on what?

the rambling bullshit of Bad Guy's janitor friend who got pissed off because Pioli made him pick up a gum wrapper?

please ... WE KNOW NOTHING concrete about what is going on in Arrowhead.

people around here have just gone paranoid nuts

Head in the sand.

[whoman69]

I don't see it as a Catch-22. Just because the fans seem to want it doesn't mean its not the right decision. It also doesn't mean he was pushed into it by the fans. He's doing a good job or he's not doing a good job. Frankly if I'm an owner and have to come out and make a statement about the fans because the GM is quiet, he's not doing his job.

[RealSNR]

If he lets Pioli go now, there will be the perception among the fans, owners, and the NFL in general that he doesn't really make the decisions around here- he will be percieved as beeing subject to the whims of the fans.

Who gives a shit?

Ford in Detroit is viewed as a piece of shit owner because he didn't listen to the fans earlier and fire Matt Millen.

Clark has to get fans buying into the team. Pioli tightens the belt better than most GMs, but you gotta have increased income. Only way to do that is to fire Pioli.

[Mr. Laz]

Why has nearly every single hire been guys he's worked with previously? We won't get new blood in here unless they are ok with being micro-managed. You're in denial about Pioli.
ALL coaches tend to hire people they know or have worked with before.

it's just been turned into some twisted conspiracy around here.

[Mr. Laz]

Head in the sand.
still waiting for any proof

[KCrockaholic]

ALL coaches tend to hire people they know or have worked with before.

it's just been turned into some twisted conspiracy around here.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkOcK5o1TZBpW2xwRqygEDdPqlpydyDjCTctSCFgFMVvb3r46t

[Mr. Laz]

Who gives a shit?

Ford in Detroit is viewed as a piece of shit owner because he didn't listen to the fans earlier and fire Matt Millen.

Clark has to get fans buying into the team. Pioli tightens the belt better than most GMs, but you gotta have increased income. Only way to do that is to fire Pioli.
Hunt could definitely make a business decision and decide that Pioli has to go for money reasons.

not really winning reasons ... but money reasons

could see that happening

but you blow it up and that means all the coaches go ... all the schemes go and then 2 years of transition. All the current young talent might as well be traded away because they either won't fit the scheme or will be free agents by the time the transition is over.

[Mr. Laz]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkOcK5o1TZBpW2xwRqygEDdPqlpydyDjCTctSCFgFMVvb3r46tso you're saying that guys in the NFL DON'T tend to hire guys they have previously worked with? :spock:

You're lying or just making shit up now

[KCrockaholic]

so you're saying that coaches DON'T tend to hire guys they have previously worked with? :spock:

You're lying or just making shit up now

No. I'm not going to argue with you about this. Anyone who still believes in Pioli....

Has their http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRqQLkaZM0YFUdoKPdszNTq-FTgiSNJJU4GE3-OIRZJk6A59rvzg

[Hammock Parties]

but you blow it up and that means all the coaches go ... all the schemes go and then 2 years of transition. All the current young talent might as well be traded away because they either won't fit the scheme or will be free agents by the time the transition is over.

That's fine.

Current regime isn't doing shit, so you might as well.

Fucking cut bait, Laz. Pioli is an epic failure. Admit it.

[Mr. Laz]

No. I'm not going to argue with you about this. Anyone who still believes in Pioli....

Has their it's not about still believing in Pioli, it's about reality



so you have nothing other than the rumor mongering bullshit that flies around this place?

[The Franchise]

Hunt could definitely make a business decision and decide that Pioli has to go for money reasons.

not really winning reasons ... but money reasons

could see that happening

but you blow it up and that means all the coaches go ... all the schemes go and then 2 years of transition. All the current young talent might as well be traded away because they either won't fit the scheme or will be free agents by the time the transition is over.

Houston changed their scheme in one offseason and hit the ground rolling.

[Hammock Parties]

How in the hell did the 49ers have so much success in year one under Harbaugh?

Must have been magic.

[Mr. Laz]

Houston changed their scheme in one offseason and hit the ground rolling.
so did St. louis, it appears

but most of the time it doesn't seem to work that way

[BossChief]

A GMs job is to find a franchise qb and then build around him. If your choice is the wrong one, you try again and again until you get one. Piolis problem is that he tried, but is too stubborn to admit he whiffed.

Tannehill should be a Chief.

[Mr. Laz]

Most owners are not going to want to blow it up after just 4/5 years.

Another thing that might lead to it is if Crennel can't get/keep the team motivated.

If the team falls asleep then Crennel will have to go.

Firing the head coach again will be a partial 'blow up' which could lead to Pioli getting the boot too.

The Chiefs haven't won enough that's for sure.

Also depends on the viable candidates at GM/HC as replacements.

[Hammock Parties]

Most owners are not going to want to blow it up after just 4/5 years.


LMAO

What?

It happens all the fucking time.

Four years is an eternity in the NFL.

[Mr. Laz]

A GMs job is to find a franchise qb and then build around him. If your choice is the wrong one, you try again and again until you get one. Piolis problem is that he tried, but is too stubborn to admit he whiffed.

Tannehill should be a Chief.
all true

and if Pioli does stay then he will have one more year to get that franchise QB ... his job will depend on it. IMO

[KCrockaholic]

all true

and if Pioli does stay then he will have one more year to get that franchise QB ... his job will depend on it. IMO

And you want Scott Pioli to be the guy to make that decision? His QB evaluation skills weren't bad enough when he spent $63 million on Matt Cassel? No. Fuck that guy. Get somebody in here that knows what the hell they're doing.

[Mr. Laz]

another thing that will influence Pioli keeping his job ... what happened with Peyton Manning.

1) If the Hunt and/or Pioli decided that they didn't think giving an injured Manning a 20 million dollar per year contract. Then it wasn't really ON Pioli and therefore he tried to upgrade the QB position last year.

2) If Manning really didn't come to KC because of some agent grudge against Pioli then it would be consider another Pioli QB failure.

big difference

[BossChief]

all true

and if Pioli does stay then he will have one more year to get that franchise QB ... his job will depend on it. IMO

Fuck that. Listen to yourself, dude.

You think Pioli should be the one to chose this teams next quarterback?

He saw Cassel every day in NE and still gave him a 63 million dollar contract and handcuffed him to wheel of this team.

Palko
Quinn

The guy is so terrible at picking quarterbacks he has me questioning Stanzi.

Pioli needs to go and an up and coming guy with an eye for talent needs to take over and get a shot at picking our next quarterback.

Let me ask you this:

What has Pioli done to make you think he deserves to pick a franchise quarterback?

[Red Dawg]

This definitely hasn't been discussed and was absolutely worthy of a new thread.

SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[BossChief]

another thing that will influence Pioli keeping his job ... what happened with Peyton Manning.

1) If the Hunt and/or Pioli decided that they didn't think giving an injured Manning a 20 million dollar per year contract. Then it wasn't really ON Pioli and therefore he tried to upgrade the QB position last year.

2) If Manning really didn't come to KC because of some agent grudge against Pioli then it would be consider another Pioli QB failure.

big difference

Both Hunt AND Pioli both have said that there is no limitation on spending.

FFS Laz...Clark wrote checks to Matt Cassel for similar amounts over his first 3 years in KC...Do you really think Clark would go on tv and say publicly he wants Manning to be a Chief after writing those checks and then veto the cost?

Listen to yourself.

Pioli needs to go drown in an aids pool.

[Mr. Laz]

Fuck that. Listen to yourself, dude.

You think Pioli should be the one to chose this teams next quarterback?

He saw Cassel every day in NE and still gave him a 63 million dollar contract and handcuffed him to wheel of this team.

Palko
Quinn

The guy is so terrible at picking quarterbacks he has me questioning Stanzi.

Pioli needs to go and an up and coming guy with an eye for talent needs to take over and get a shot at picking our next quarterback.

Let me ask you this:

What has Pioli done to make you think he deserves to pick a franchise quarterback?
Pioli saw Cassel do it in New England bought in ... it was a big mistake.

Thigpen - Gailey guy
Palko - Haley guy
Quinn - Crennel guy

overall talent level on this team seems better to me than it has in a decade

He's done it before ... Tom Brady

[chiefzilla1501]

still waiting for any proof

Scott Pioli micromanages

Kent Babb has detailed plenty of stories surrounding this. This wasn't just a janitor. This was a professional report that used a ton of interviews and sources to put the picture together. If Pioli is upset about it, then maybe the ****er should have had the guts to actually entertain Babb's request for comment. Even Clark Hunt and Mark Donovan had the balls to discuss it.
Bob Gretz wrote in a follow-up that the micromanagement was coming all the way from Texas. He didn't specify what, but it sure sounded like it was all the way down to lineup changes and game planning
When was the last time you heard a player go off-script? The comment was made that when Eric Berry's class did their first interviews, they were already talking like robots.
There was buzz at the combine that everybody was well aware of the Chiefs' toxic environment
Matt Cassel. Romeo Crennel made several public comments about wanting QB competition. Not a backup. Competition. He clearly liked Orton, he raved about Peyton Manning, and he said Cassel was not guaranteed a starting job. The FIRST person to say Cassel was the clear starter was Scott Pioli, not Romeo. Fast forward to 2012. Romeo and Daboll design an offense that runs the ball 80% of the time while only having Cassel throw dump-off passes. I don't know how much clearer it could be that Romeo and Daboll have no confidence in the QB.
Dick Haley told Todd Haley he couldn't win with Cassel as a QB. You'd have to think Todd would at least consider his father's advice. There are reports from yet another insider who suggests that Charlie Weis didn't like Cassel either. So you have 4 coaches who have shown clearly that they did not like the QB, and yet he continues to start and for 4 years has no competition.
What offense and defense are we running? How many coaches have we hired during that time frame? Scott Pioli has hired 2 defensive coordinators, 3 offensive coordinators, and 2 head coaches. All 3 offensive coordinators ran the Erhardt-Perkins offense. All our defensive coordinators run 2-gap 3-4. Haley's experience was in a Whisenhunt offense and he hired Clancy Pendergast, whose experience is in a 1-gap defense
Oh hey, let's not forget that Charlie Weis screamed up and down that he wanted Jimmy Clausen. The Chiefs passed up on him twice. Regardless of how good Clausen was, this is yet another experienced coach who hated our QB yet was not allowed to get rid of him.
Connect the dots to the Pendergast comment. Haley threw a shit fit when Tyson Jackson was drafted. It sure seemed from day 1 that Haley was never allowed to run the offense or defense he wanted to because it wasn't exactly what Pioli wanted.
Babb alleges in a separate report that Pioli dictated roster decisions to Pioli


Scott Pioli is a bully to the media

Fact: Scott Pioli locked out the media - This is indisputable. Mark Donovan confirmed this in Arrowhead Anxiety. It involved shutting media guys out, closing the shades in offices, and practices. And we feel it as fans. There aren't stories written about our players. Our players talk in scripts rather than talking candidly.
Fact: Scott Pioli pays way too much attention to what the media says about him and his Chiefs - Talk to anyone who has ever written for the Chiefs, whether that's the Kansas City Star or just some small time blog. Scott Pioli will contact you if he doesn't like the kind of store you write.


I honestly don't know what more proof you want.

[Mr. Laz]

Both Hunt AND Pioli both have said that there is no limitation on spending.

FFS Laz...Clark wrote checks to Matt Cassel for similar amounts over his first 3 years in KC...Do you really think Clark would go on tv and say publicly he wants Manning to be a Chief after writing those checks and then veto the cost?

Listen to yourself.

Pioli needs to go drown in an aids pool.
yea, well i find it very hard to believe that Manning didn't come to KC because his agent and Pioli didn't get along.

I've seen no indication that Pioli has that same personality issues with agents that Carl Peterson did.

no limitations on spending isn't that same as deciding that giving a huge contract to an older guy with mulitiple neck surgeries isn't a good idea. But i don't know who would make that decision ... Pioli or Clark or Both.

[BossChief]

HMOG head in the sand.

I don't care if Haley stood on a table and threatened to kill Piolis hairless cat if he didn't sign Palko...his job is to NOT make poor decisions and to find a franchise quarterback.

There is NO SCENARIO that Palko would have EVER been that guy.

He traded Thigpen because he didn't want any competition for his chosen guy...nothing more.

Please...don't give Pioli credit for Brady...he didn't want to draft him at all.

Quinn is Romeos guy? Hahahahahahahahahahahagajahshschsgahahahaga

Have you listened to a word Romeo has said?

Hey, Romeo, what do you like about Quinn?

"Well, he's tall and he has nice hair"

Give me a fucking break.

[pr_capone]

Pioli saw Cassel do it in New England bought in ... it was a big mistake.

Thigpen - Gailey guy
Palko - Haley guy
Quinn - Crennel guy

overall talent level on this team seems better to me than it has in a decade

He's done it before ... Tom Brady

You are either trolling or incredibly dense.

[R8RFAN]

this has gone from funny to pathetic

[Hammock Parties]

Pioli makes Carl Peterson look like the friendliest guy on the planet.

He's a fat, egotistical, insecure, mean-spirited jackass.

And he embarrasses the franchise more than Haley EVER did.

[chiefzilla1501]

yea, well i find it very hard to believe that Manning didn't come to KC because his agent and Pioli didn't get along.

I've seen no indication that Pioli has that same personality issues with agents that Carl Peterson did.

no limitations on spending isn't that same as deciding that giving a huge contract to an older guy with mulitiple neck surgeries isn't a good idea. But i don't know who would make that decision ... Pioli or Clark or Both.

Manning mentioned several times that he would never play for an organization where he didn't feel like he could do his own thing and have at least some say in personnel decisions. You think he'd really believe a guy who hired 4 offensive coordinators, all of whom had experience in Erhardt-Perkins, when he says he'd give flexibility to run the offense?

Manning is a personal guy who does a gazillion media appearances. He loves the fans. How do you think he would feel about KC's media policy and scripted media talking points?

Do the math. There is no way Peyton would ever play for a team culture like this.

[BossChief]

I wonder what Haley would have been like with a GM that agreed with Haley and his dad that Cassel wasn't the answer.

[RealSNR]

Scott Pioli micromanages

Kent Babb has detailed plenty of stories surrounding this. This wasn't just a janitor. This was a professional report that used a ton of interviews and sources to put the picture together. If Pioli is upset about it, then maybe the ****er should have had the guts to actually entertain Babb's request for comment. Even Clark Hunt and Mark Donovan had the balls to discuss it.
Bob Gretz wrote in a follow-up that the micromanagement was coming all the way from Texas. He didn't specify what, but it sure sounded like it was all the way down to lineup changes and game planning
When was the last time you heard a player go off-script? The comment was made that when Eric Berry's class did their first interviews, they were already talking like robots.
There was buzz at the combine that everybody was well aware of the Chiefs' toxic environment
Matt Cassel. Romeo Crennel made several public comments about wanting QB competition. Not a backup. Competition. He clearly liked Orton, he raved about Peyton Manning, and he said Cassel was not guaranteed a starting job. The FIRST person to say Cassel was the clear starter was Scott Pioli, not Romeo. Fast forward to 2012. Romeo and Daboll design an offense that runs the ball 80% of the time while only having Cassel throw dump-off passes. I don't know how much clearer it could be that Romeo and Daboll have no confidence in the QB.
Dick Haley told Todd Haley he couldn't win with Cassel as a QB. You'd have to think Todd would at least consider his father's advice. There are reports from yet another insider who suggests that Charlie Weis didn't like Cassel either. So you have 4 coaches who have shown clearly that they did not like the QB, and yet he continues to start and for 4 years has no competition.
What offense and defense are we running? How many coaches have we hired during that time frame? Scott Pioli has hired 2 defensive coordinators, 3 offensive coordinators, and 2 head coaches. All 3 offensive coordinators ran the Erhardt-Perkins offense. All our defensive coordinators run 2-gap 3-4. Haley's experience was in a Whisenhunt offense and he hired Clancy Pendergast, whose experience is in a 1-gap defense
Oh hey, let's not forget that Charlie Weis screamed up and down that he wanted Jimmy Clausen. The Chiefs passed up on him twice. Regardless of how good Clausen was, this is yet another experienced coach who hated our QB yet was not allowed to get rid of him.
Connect the dots to the Pendergast comment. Haley threw a shit fit when Tyson Jackson was drafted. It sure seemed from day 1 that Haley was never allowed to run the offense or defense he wanted to because it wasn't exactly what Pioli wanted.
Babb alleges in a separate report that Pioli dictated roster decisions to Pioli


Scott Pioli is a bully to the media

Fact: Scott Pioli locked out the media - This is indisputable. Mark Donovan confirmed this in Arrowhead Anxiety. It involved shutting media guys out, closing the shades in offices, and practices. And we feel it as fans. There aren't stories written about our players. Our players talk in scripts rather than talking candidly.
Fact: Scott Pioli pays way too much attention to what the media says about him and his Chiefs - Talk to anyone who has ever written for the Chiefs, whether that's the Kansas City Star or just some small time blog. Scott Pioli will contact you if he doesn't like the kind of store you write.


I honestly don't know what more proof you want.
http://www.miscupload.com/upload/773734817035057425638303.gif

[chiefzilla1501]

Most owners are not going to want to blow it up after just 4/5 years.

Another thing that might lead to it is if Crennel can't get/keep the team motivated.

If the team falls asleep then Crennel will have to go.

Firing the head coach again will be a partial 'blow up' which could lead to Pioli getting the boot too.

The Chiefs haven't won enough that's for sure.

Also depends on the viable candidates at GM/HC as replacements.

How many GMs get a chance to hire 3 head coaches, let alone 3 in 5 years?

Nobody wants to fucking work for Pioli. Even if you have your head in the sand and choose not to believe that Arrowhead is a toxic environment right now, let's look at what you perceive as a head coach:

You'd have to take a HUGE leap of faith that you'd have any chance of running anything but the 2-gap 3-4 defense. Clark Hunt wanted Steelers football. Haley requested a defensive coordinator in Pendergast who ran a similar Steelers defensive scheme. Pioli ran 2-gap anyway, even though he knew it would take 2-3 years to build personnel. Unlike Dimitroff, Pioli has a clear reputation for force-fitting his philosophy onto his team.

You'd have to take a HUGE leap of faith that Pioli wants to run anything but Erhardt-Perkins. 4 offensive coordinators. All had experience with Erhardt-Perkins. All ran, essentially, Erhardt-Perkins.

You'd have to take a HUGE leap of faith that Pioli will fight to get the right QB on the roster. 4 years. 1 bad QB. No legit competition brought in, despite some pretty visible rumbling from everyone beneath him that at least some competition was necessary.

You'd have to ignore all the stories talking about Arrowhead being a toxic place to be. There have been multiple stories, but no conflicting reports. There is a clear media lockdown in the place. There has been a clear re-training of coaches and players to talk on scripts vs. talking candidly. And I can guarantee you that if the stories are true, and they undoubtedly are, about the culture Kansas City has, there are a lot of very good coaches who will refuse to interview for a coach or coordinator position in KC.

Pioli has become the Al Davis of the NFL.

[splatbass]

No head coach wants to ****ing work in Kansas city. No defensive coordinator or offensive coordinator wants to work here. I can't imagine what kind of reject coach we'd have to get that would agree to being micro managed all the way to the starting lineup setup.



BS. Even Al Davis was able to hire coaches, and no one micromanaged more than him.

[splatbass]

Why has nearly every single hire been guys he's worked with previously?

That happens all over the NFL. Always has, always will.

[Ace Gunner]

I wonder what Haley would have been like with a GM that agreed with Haley and his dad that Cassel wasn't the answer.

You know the answer to this. He would have had DJ ripping heads off and spitting down throats. Matty C would be in year three of his "foundation work" back in Chatsworth & Bowe would be a perennial PB. I don't know who the QB would be, but it could have been Andrew Luck, Cam Newton or a number of guys.

[KCrockaholic]

That happens all over the NFL. Always has, always will.

It didn't happen in Atlanta.

[Mr. Laz]

Scott Pioli micromanages

Kent Babb has detailed plenty of stories surrounding this. This wasn't just a janitor. This was a professional report that used a ton of interviews and sources to put the picture together. If Pioli is upset about it, then maybe the ****er should have had the guts to actually entertain Babb's request for comment. Even Clark Hunt and Mark Donovan had the balls to discuss it.

this was about the office and gum wrapper-gate. I could give a fuck whether Pioli 'kicks ass' in the offices and makes a secretary cry.

hell, i've done the same thing myself.
Bob Gretz wrote in a follow-up that the micromanagement was coming all the way from Texas. He didn't specify what, but it sure sounded like it was all the way down to lineup changes and game planningall the way from Texas? Pioli isn't from Texas ... so Clark Hunt was involved?



When was the last time you heard a player go off-script? The comment was made that when Eric Berry's class did their first interviews, they were already talking like robots

Plenty of teams keep the players quotes on lockdown ... means nothing. Would rather have a raving lunatic like the Jets?



There was buzz at the combine that everybody was well aware of the Chiefs' toxic environment
More Wrapper-gate ... who gives a shit




Matt Cassel. Romeo Crennel made several public comments about wanting QB competition. Not a backup. Competition. He clearly liked Orton, he raved about Peyton Manning, and he said Cassel was not guaranteed a starting job. The FIRST person to say Cassel was the clear starter was Scott Pioli, not Romeo. Fast forward to 2012. Romeo and Daboll design an offense that runs the ball 80% of the time while only having Cassel throw dump-off passes. I don't know how much clearer it could be that Romeo and Daboll have no confidence in the QB.QB situation has definitely been screwed up. I've wonders myself whether Pioli has purposely avoided bringing anyone in that could compete with Cassel to protect him.


Dick Haley told Todd Haley he couldn't win with Cassel as a QB. You'd have to think Todd would at least consider his father's advice. There are reports from yet another insider who suggests that Charlie Weis didn't like Cassel either. So you have 4 coaches who have shown clearly that they did not like the QB, and yet he continues to start and for 4 years has no competition.

fuck that insane bastard Todd Haley. Did Pioli bug Haley's father's phone too?
What offense and defense are we running? How many coaches have we hired during that time frame? Scott Pioli has hired 2 defensive coordinators, 3 offensive coordinators, and 2 head coaches. All 3 offensive coordinators ran the Erhardt-Perkins offense. All our defensive coordinators run 2-gap 3-4. Haley's experience was in a Whisenhunt offense and he hired Clancy Pendergast, whose experience is in a 1-gap defense
Pioli definitely seems to want to run a specific style of football
Oh hey, let's not forget that Charlie Weis screamed up and down that he wanted Jimmy Clausen. The Chiefs passed up on him twice. Regardless of how good Clausen was, this is yet another experienced coach who hated our QB yet was not allowed to get rid of him.exeraggation much? We heard a rumor that Weis said he wanted to draft Clausen in the War Room. We have no idea whether that's true and we sure as hell don't know that he 'screamed up and down' about anything. Clausen turned out to pretty much suck anyway.
Connect the dots to the Pendergast comment. Haley threw a shit fit when Tyson Jackson was drafted. It sure seemed from day 1 that Haley was never allowed to run the offense or defense he wanted to because it wasn't exactly what Pioli wanted.speculative bullshit ... you have no idea whether any of that's true. But even if it was, LOTS of head coaches get pissed because they 'aren't allowed to buy the groceries' or whatever the hell Parcells used to say.




Babb alleges in a separate report that Pioli dictated roster decisions to PioliBabb said that 'HE KNEW' it happened under Haley but that he 'wondered' whether it was happening under Crennel. So you tell me, how could he know under Haley but not Crennel UNLESS HALEY WAS THE SOURCE? Forgive me if i don't consider that crazy,lying bastard Haley a reliable source.



.

Scott Pioli is a bully to the media


Fact: Scott Pioli locked out the media - This is indisputable. Mark Donovan confirmed this in Arrowhead Anxiety. It involved shutting media guys out, closing the shades in offices, and practices. And we feel it as fans. There aren't stories written about our players. Our players talk in scripts rather than talking candidly.
Fact: Scott Pioli pays way too much attention to what the media says about him and his Chiefs - Talk to anyone who has ever written for the Chiefs, whether that's the Kansas City Star or just some small time blog. Scott Pioli will contact you if he doesn't like the kind of store you write.

I honestly don't know what more proof you want.blah,blah,blah ... fuck the media. Don't give a shit whether they are pissed or not.

[Hammock Parties]

Laz is being a dipshit contrarian.

There is no reason to keep anyone from the current regime employed. PERIOD.

[Ace Gunner]

Pioli makes Carl Peterson look like the friendliest guy on the planet.

He's a fat, egotistical, insecure, mean-spirited jackass.

And he embarrasses the franchise more than Haley EVER did.

The only difference so far is that fans didn't take twenty years to figure out the GM is a fucking rip off artist.

[splatbass]

It didn't happen in Atlanta.

So? Does that mean that it doesn't happen on most teams? Of course not. Seriously, some of you guys need to take a course in logic.

Also, going back to your first post in this thread, no team should ever let the fans run the team. That is a poor way to manage anything. Fans are fickle, and change their minds constantly, based on knee jerk reactions and not knowledge of what is going on. Only an idiot would let a popularity contest make important decisions.

Pioli should be fired, and Cassel should have been benched long ago. But it should be because it is the right decision, not because idiots on a message board practicing group think want them to.

[Ghost of Maslowski]

if i'm Clark i keep moving at glacier speed towards repairing my dysfunctional franchise, because it's sure to further enrage my dwindling fanbase and therefore is a sound business decision.

[chiefzilla1501]

BS. Even Al Davis was able to hire coaches, and no one micromanaged more than him.

Al Davis hired a bunch of bottom-of-the-barrel coaches. Gruden and Kiffin were two of the youngest coaches to ever coach football (Kiffin was the youngest). He sought out high risk young guys who wanted a shot. And guess what, most of them were let go within a few years because Al Davis drafted whomever he wanted, regardless of whether it fit the coach's philosophy.

[BossChief]

Right now, the Chiefs are a sprinter with a fractured leg and Pioli thinks we should put it in a cast as is instead of doing what needs done and break it the rest of the way so it will heal properly.

[BossChief]

Al Davis hired a bunch of bottom-of-the-barrel coaches. Gruden and Kiffin were two of the youngest coaches to ever coach football (Kiffin was the youngest). He sought out high risk young guys who wanted a shot. And guess what, most of them were let go within a few years because Al Davis drafted whomever he wanted, regardless of whether it fit the coach's philosophy.

The Raiders problem was the same as any other loser team (like the Chiefs)

They didn't have a quarterback.

When they got Gannon, look what happened.

[Mr. Laz]

The Raiders problem was the same as any other loser team (like the Chiefs)

They didn't have a quarterback.

When they got Gannon, look what happened.
which is the key and what Hunt might decide to focus on

You get Crennel DC help and a franchise QB and stuff improves a lot faster than gutting everything again.

[alnorth]

Clark caught between a rock and a hard place

No, he's not. He's the F'ing owner, no one can fire him.

There is an argument to be made for a coach or a GM to not be seen as being subject to the will of the fans, or they'll be seen as weak, unable to be their own man, etc. More likely to be fired, less likely to find another job.

An owner doesn't have to care about what anyone else thinks. If he believes Pioli should be fired, he should fire him. The media then criticizes him for bending to the fickle whim of the fans? Screw the media, the owner doesn't have to worry much about his reputation.

[R8RFAN]

Clark says Fuck you all, Clark will do things the way Clark wants too and if you don't fucking like it don't come to the games because he has plenty of people to buy that ticket.

Clark is the 1% , he deserves it and the rest of you can eat a bag of dicks.

[chiefzilla1501]

this was about the office and gum wrapper-gate. I could give a **** whether Pioli 'kicks ass' in the offices and makes a secretary cry.
I'm glad you are so narrow-minded that you think this was about a gum wrapper. This is about gestapo tactics. This is about micromanaging who employees have lunch with, not allowing access into certain stairwells, egotistically yelling at people who call you by your last name. These are stories about coaches being micromanaged all the way down to who HAS to start at QB. These are stories about a toxic culture and there have been no defenders of what the Chiefs are doing except for top level management. You are delusional if you think this is anything close to normal.

all the way from Texas? Pioli isn't from Texas ... so Clark Hunt was involved?
That is the implication, yes.


Plenty of teams keep the players quotes on lockdown ... means nothing. Would rather have a raving lunatic like the Jets?
There is no team as robotic as the Chiefs. Not even the Patriots.


More Wrapper-gate ... who gives a shit
When the NFL's best scouts and personnel guys who could one day are all gossiping about how dysfunctional your organization is, don't you think that potential future scouts, coaches, and players are hearing this and steer away from Arrowhead?

QB situation has definitely been screwed up. I've wonders myself whether Pioli has purposed avoided bringing anyone in that could compete with Cassel to protect him.
It is brutally obvious. And it's not just about not making any real attempt to bring in Clausen for Weis or Orton for Romeo. It's about Romeo/Daboll designing an offense that seems almost rebellious in nature -- as if they hate that they have to play the QB, so they're just going to not let him do anything. Isn't it weird that after a full game of Cassel dump-off screens, Romeo immediately dials up 3 of 4 pass plays for Brady that are downfield?

**** that insane bastard Todd Haley. Did Pioli bug Haley's father's phone too?
Whatever you think of Todd Haley, Dick Haley is a well respected personnel guy with tremendous experience. And he was right about Cassel. So **** the guy who got the decision wrong (Pioli), not the guy who said it was wrong.

Pioli definitely seems to want to run a specific style of football
He has shown zero ability to move outside of that box. Because of that, there is simply no way he can hire anyone outside of the tree.

exeraggation much? We heard a rumor that Weis said he wanted to draft Clausen in the War Room. We have no idea whether that's true and we sure as hell don't know that he 'screamed up and down' about anything. Clausen turned out to pretty much suck anyway.
Oh you mean the many reports indicating that Weis glowed about him? Or the fact that Weis was going to run Clausen's workout, but decided it was a conflict of interest? Or the fact that Clausen eventually fell into a manageable position nobody anticipated? It doesn't matter if he sucks or not. It's a classic example of our coaches showing no faith in Cassel, and Pioli doing NOTHING in 4 years to create even marginal competition for Cassel. Pretty telling that the only QB competition ever brought in was a guy who was there to replace Cassel when he was out on IR.

speculative bullshit ... you have no idea whether any of that's true. But even if it was, LOTS of head coaches get pissed because they 'aren't allowed to buy the groceries' or whatever the hell Parcells used to say.

This offense and defense are by the letter what Pioli wanted. You can try to excuse it any way you want to. But Pioli got every single thing his way. There is zero evidence that the coaches ever won any battle against Pioli.

Babb said that 'HE KNEW' it happened under Haley but that he 'wondered' whether it was happening under Crennel. So you tell me, how could he know under Haley but not Crennel UNLESS HALEY WAS THE SOURCE? Forgive me if i don't consider that crazy,lying bastard Haley a reliable source.

You'd have to have your head in the sand not to read into Romeo's consistent comments about the QB position, his then neutering of the QB role in the offense, and his shaky defensiveness of Cassel in press conferences, the refusal to throw downfield on any situation that's 3rd and 5+.

blah,blah,blah ... **** the media. Don't give a shit whether they are pissed or not.
That's funny. Because last time I checked, one of the greatest advantages about playing in Kansas City was Arrowhead Stadium. Even during a winning season, nobody cared about the team. We don't have fluff pieces about players. We don't have TV shows with fun characters like Jared Allen. We root for this team, but we don't connect with any of the players.

This media blackout is ****ing ridiculous. And if Clark was smart, he'd realize he's losing a shitload of money that would be better spent promoting the team instead of shutting the fans out.

[chiefzilla1501]

The Raiders problem was the same as any other loser team (like the Chiefs)

They didn't have a quarterback.

When they got Gannon, look what happened.

Gannon was developed in a terrific system coached by Gruden, even if Callahan got the credit when they got to the Super Bowl. It was still about coaching. Gruden was a lucky hit. The problem was every bit about a bunch of misfits who couldn't play well with each other and a bunch of athletically gifted guys with no football talent, as it was about the QB issue.

[chiefzilla1501]

which is the key and what Hunt might decide to focus on

You get Crennel DC help and a franchise QB and stuff improves a lot faster than gutting everything again.

Bullshit.

Romeo Crennel is not a good head coach. Been saying that for months. He runs a soft program and his players play soft and without intensity or fire or discipline.

If you bring in a guy like DeCosta, he has the pieces to run a 3-4 like he has in Baltimore. And you can easily hire an offensive coordinator who can make the pieces we have in place work.

We need a new QB, head coach, and defensive coordinator who runs 3-4. That's it. That's not a blow-up. That's maybe a half year spent adjusting to the new schemes.

[Hammock Parties]

Bullshit.

Romeo Crennel is not a good head coach. Been saying that for months. He runs a soft program and his players play soft and without intensity or fire or discipline.

DJ went from one of the 3 best ILB in the league under Haley to mediocre under Romeo.

Romeo sucks at motivating players. Especially guys who need motivation. You gotta push the right buttons. Every player is different.

Jimmy Johnson wrote about this in his book. He had a Masters in psychology. He knew what buttons to push.

[chiefzilla1501]

DJ went from one of the 3 best ILB in the league under Haley to mediocre under Romeo.

Romeo sucks at motivating players. Especially guys who need motivation. You gotta push the right buttons. Every player is different.

Jimmy Johnson wrote about this in his book. He had a Masters in psychology. He knew what buttons to push.

Yeah. I can't believe anybody actually believes the problem is that Romeo doesn't have DC help. With the talent the Chiefs have, there is no excuse... period... for not having our players punching people in the mouth right now.

[whoman69]

No, he's not. He's the F'ing owner, no one can fire him.

There is an argument to be made for a coach or a GM to not be seen as being subject to the will of the fans, or they'll be seen as weak, unable to be their own man, etc. More likely to be fired, less likely to find another job.

An owner doesn't have to care about what anyone else thinks. If he believes Pioli should be fired, he should fire him. The media then criticizes him for bending to the fickle whim of the fans? Screw the media, the owner doesn't have to worry much about his reputation.

Any business owner who ignores the needs of his customers will not be in business long. The problem is that since his father lost the oil money, the team has been run as a business with money being the deciding factor. The Chiefs and other sporting groups are the family's main source of income. They really need to get out of the business.

[R8RFAN]

Any business owner who ignores the needs of his customers will not be in business long. The problem is that since his father lost the oil money, the team has been run as a business with money being the deciding factor. The Chiefs and other sporting groups are the family's main source of income. They really need to get out of the business.

Not in the NFL dude, it's not your normal business, people will come just to party and it does not matter if the team sucks...

Raiders don't sell out because most of them are broke out there, if they had the money it would sell out just like the Cheaps every week

[chiefzilla1501]

Not in the NFL dude, it's not your normal business, people will come just to party and it does not matter if the team sucks...

Raiders don't sell out because most of them are broke out there, if they had the money it would sell out just like the Cheaps every week

Stadiums don't sell merchandise when fans hate the team and don't identify with the players. They don't buy concessions if they're leaving in the 3rd quarter. And while you may think a ticket is "sold" just because somebody bought it in advance, again, when thousands of people are buying less beer and goodies because they're not showing up to games, these affect the bottom line. Not to mention I'm sure Clark Hunt has in the back of his mind the thought of how he is going to maximize season tickets for next year.

This year, we had some false hope that the team would be watchable, so people bought season tickets. If Pioli is extended, next season is going to be nightmare for season tickets. I feel bad for any sales guy put on that job.

[htismaqe]

Laz is being a dipshit contrarian.

There is no reason to keep anyone from the current regime employed. PERIOD.

What he refuses to accept is that Pioli's behavior with his non-football employees and the media isn't inconsequential.

It's a symptom of a much larger organizational dysfunction and absolutely DOES have an effect on the on-field product.

[Hammock Parties]

I have heard that Pioli is incredibly disliked within the walls of Arrowhead.

[R8RFAN]

I have heard that Pioli is incredibly disliked within the walls of Arrowhead.

from who?

[htismaqe]

from who?

Several ex-employees have said it is a hostile environment. Mark Donovan reportedly cannot stand him.

[FloridaMan88]

Clark is in a Catch-22. If he lets Pioli go now, there will be the perception among the fans, owners, and the NFL in general that he doesn't really make the decisions around here- he will be percieved as beeing subject to the whims of the fans. On the other hand, if he doesn't let Pioli go, he will have totally alienated the entire fan base who makes his team profitable (outside of TV revenues). The Chiefs have made one PR blunder after another this year and fans are on the verge of outright revolt.

In all seriousness, if you are Clark- and view this purely as a business decision- what is your next move?

"Whims of the fans"? The on field product put forth by Fat Scott's roster is justification enough for him to be fired.

This isn't like Al Davis firing a GM or HC and not giving him a legit chance to succeed. Fat Scott has been given 4 offseasons and 4 drafts, and a second opportunity to hire a HC. He has failed.

[Groves]

I wonder if front offices talk about fan-bases the same way that we talk about them?

Maybe they're planning to "blow it up" by getting new fans. Already seems like it.

[Hammock Parties]

Teams cannot get new fans unless they move.

They are "stuck" with this loyal, stupid cash cow of a fan base.

Sucks to be them.

[Groves]

It's just not true. Sports franchises are always looking to add to their fan base, and sometimes willing to let segments go.