The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching"

[rico]

http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/2012/10/chiefs-quarterbacks-and-coaching.html?spref=tw


Quarterbacking:

When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm.

If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass.

Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing.

If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics.

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me.

Stanzi:

I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing.

Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads.

If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB.

Daboll/Cassel:

In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2.

That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes.

What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out.

Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision.

This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to.

What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback.

Final Thought

Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game.

Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage.

Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme.

Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Dear lord.

How about we scrap the whole fucking lot of them?

[L.A. Chieffan]

UNCHAIN STANZI!

[SAUTO]

Dear lord.

How about we scrap the whole fucking lot of them?

This. Fire everybody in the front office.

Fire every coach.

Cut every quarterback.

Pay Bowe. Pay Albert.

Draft Geno Smith no matter what it takes to get there
Posted via Mobile Device

[Three7s]

So we're trying to run a vertical offense? Our longest freaking pass play is 40 yards! So the Chiefs have gone half the season and have done NOTHING to address this problem?

Oh wait, sure they did!

Brady freaking Quinn.

sigh

[Hammock Parties]

Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted.

But those aren't the QBs fault!!! LMAO

[Dave Lane]

I still would love to see Stanzi for the rest of the season.

[Hammock Parties]

I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/134949/CHAD-OCHOCINCO-MCDONALDS.jpg

[OnTheWarpath15]

So we're trying to run a vertical offense? Our longest freaking pass play is 40 yards! So the Chiefs have gone half the season and have done NOTHING to address this problem?

Oh wait, sure they did!

Brady freaking Quinn.

sigh

Our longest pass play is 40 yards, and that came on a play in which the targeted WR was underthrown and Bowe took over.

[Hammock Parties]

The fact that anyone would waste that many words about how to fix this crap, with the SAME PLAYERS AND COACHES, is mind bottling.

Just bring in a guy with a flamethrower. Simple.

[DeezNutz]

I've never seen someone spend that much time scrutinizing a turd.

[threebag]

Stanzi for President

[Titty Meat]

lolwut?

[notorious]

Urge to kill.......rising.......

[Hammock Parties]

Collective CP response to this thread:

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[rico]

Same dude:

"Coaching Matt Cassel"

When I was at training camp one thing I wanted to see with the Quarterbacks was specific. For Cassel I wanted to see him throwing vertically. I felt with the wide receivers we had, that it was necessary for Cassel to make his mistakes with the new scheme there. Problem was I became frustrated watching him.

He would target our slots in the flats v. man, and hit the TE up the seam/post v. Cover 2. His play had me frustrated because this year was about growth for Matt Cassel. But during camp he threw mostly the same routes he always had success with. The same slant he beat Vikings/Indy cover 2, he beat at practice. Most of the routes v. certain coverages were throws that he had always had success with.

At rare points did we work the packages and throws that Cassel has always struggled with. The timing and touch to throw a 9 route vs. man/cover 2 never got the needed reps. The offense Daboll runs requires the ability to throw vertical. So far most of the problems Cassel is having are due to him and the coaching staff taking the time and preparations to familiarize themselves with it.

The problem with being a successful running team, is that defenses will adjust to that. It takes numbers in football to run. Teams that describe themselves as running teams have to adjust their personnel accordingly. They are likely, as is the case in Kansas City to carry more TE's/FB's/RB's than teams that considering themselves passing teams.

By having more TE's/Backs they face adjustments for opposing defenses. The defense typically adds a linebacker or defensive lineman. These numbers in the run game effects the passing game, how it applies to Kansas City...

The Chiefs by bringing more numbers (defenders) in the box...the openings in the passing game become vertical. With the middle of the field covered by alignment, the natural passing lanes are in favor of the split ends. Which is in contrast to spread/horizontal passing schemes which spreads defenders across the field opening up the middle. Giving a West Coast system easier/more reads in passing game.

The traditional successful running teams like the Steelers, and Ravens have prototypes for their system. Schematically the big arm is needed more so than the more mechanical QB's in Rodgers/Brees/Peyton who depend on quickness and options. True running teams are going to be limited in their options in the passing game.

With the running teams that bring defenders up, having a big arm to back them up compliments a strong running team. That defense in theory should have to worry about run fills and getting beat vertically. Currently the Chiefs don't do that to defenses, because Cassel doesn't do that to defenses.

Cassel having a big arm would be great, but he doesn't need one. Kurt Warner built a Hall of Fame career simply by having great timing on his throws. The thing that separates Kyle Orton from Matt Cassel is timing. Timing partly attributed to playing at Purdue, but Orton threw receivers open...Cassel mostly throws to open receivers.

What made me frustrated as I left camp was the praise Daboll was putting on Cassel. Right then I saw a coach that was satisfied with a Quarterback that wasn't growing as a passer. The mistakes that are happening right now are a byproduct of that moment and moments like them.

We have an owner, GM, coaches that are satisfied with this flawed passer not growing. It's good that they want him to play better. But show it! Make Cassel throw the flag under the safety and over the corner every fricken time until he commands that throw. Make Cassel throw a post inside the free safety on cover 3 until he commands it.

Matt Cassel can drive a throw, he can throw for touch...but he isn't a passer. Steve Young once said the difference between him and Mike Vick was thousands of reps at BYU. Cassel needs to get back every rep that he lost at USC. We can't four years in have Cassel learning on the job.

[Tombstone RJ]

The fact that anyone would waste that many words about how to fix this crap, with the SAME PLAYERS AND COACHES, is mind bottling.

Just bring in a guy with a flamethrower. Simple.

It's "mind boggling" fyi

[Hammock Parties]

No shit? You ever heard of the god damn CP Lexicon?

[bishop_74]

It's "mind boggling" fyi

Somebody makes a mistake years ago and it is replicated around here for years after.

[rico]

No shit? You ever heard of the god damn CP Lexicon?

I've heard it can be quite the c0ck-block. :)

[Tombstone RJ]

No shit? You ever heard of the god damn CP Lexicon?

:clap:

[SAUTO]

Somebody makes a mistake years ago and it is replicated around here for years after.

Ron Burgundy is member here?
Posted via Mobile Device

[bishop_74]

Ron Burgundy is member here?
Posted via Mobile Device

Si.

[Ace Gunner]

okay. Manning was bombing the Saints with great passes, making a bunch of no name receivers famous, which as far as I know of Manning, is what he always does.

Stanzi was brain farting his way through 3rd string defenses the entire pre season and his passes were not on target more often than they were it seemed to me. He had poor decisions during every outing and through a few picks, perhaps one every outing.

And I like Stanzi, liked the pick. But he is going to need at least one more pre season before he's ready.

I expect he will play this season though, so we shall see who is right.

[Tribal Warfare]

It's "mind boggling" fyi

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Chazz Michael Micheals disagrees

[Ace Gunner]

Same dude:

"Coaching Matt Cassel"

When I was at training camp one thing I wanted to see with the Quarterbacks was specific. For Cassel I wanted to see him throwing vertically. I felt with the wide receivers we had, that it was necessary for Cassel to make his mistakes with the new scheme there. Problem was I became frustrated watching him.

He would target our slots in the flats v. man, and hit the TE up the seam/post v. Cover 2. His play had me frustrated because this year was about growth for Matt Cassel. But during camp he threw mostly the same routes he always had success with. The same slant he beat Vikings/Indy cover 2, he beat at practice. Most of the routes v. certain coverages were throws that he had always had success with.

At rare points did we work the packages and throws that Cassel has always struggled with. The timing and touch to throw a 9 route vs. man/cover 2 never got the needed reps. The offense Daboll runs requires the ability to throw vertical. So far most of the problems Cassel is having are due to him and the coaching staff taking the time and preparations to familiarize themselves with it.

The problem with being a successful running team, is that defenses will adjust to that. It takes numbers in football to run. Teams that describe themselves as running teams have to adjust their personnel accordingly. They are likely, as is the case in Kansas City to carry more TE's/FB's/RB's than teams that considering themselves passing teams.

By having more TE's/Backs they face adjustments for opposing defenses. The defense typically adds a linebacker or defensive lineman. These numbers in the run game effects the passing game, how it applies to Kansas City...

The Chiefs by bringing more numbers (defenders) in the box...the openings in the passing game become vertical. With the middle of the field covered by alignment, the natural passing lanes are in favor of the split ends. Which is in contrast to spread/horizontal passing schemes which spreads defenders across the field opening up the middle. Giving a West Coast system easier/more reads in passing game.

The traditional successful running teams like the Steelers, and Ravens have prototypes for their system. Schematically the big arm is needed more so than the more mechanical QB's in Rodgers/Brees/Peyton who depend on quickness and options. True running teams are going to be limited in their options in the passing game.

With the running teams that bring defenders up, having a big arm to back them up compliments a strong running team. That defense in theory should have to worry about run fills and getting beat vertically. Currently the Chiefs don't do that to defenses, because Cassel doesn't do that to defenses.

Cassel having a big arm would be great, but he doesn't need one. Kurt Warner built a Hall of Fame career simply by having great timing on his throws. The thing that separates Kyle Orton from Matt Cassel is timing. Timing partly attributed to playing at Purdue, but Orton threw receivers open...Cassel mostly throws to open receivers.

What made me frustrated as I left camp was the praise Daboll was putting on Cassel. Right then I saw a coach that was satisfied with a Quarterback that wasn't growing as a passer. The mistakes that are happening right now are a byproduct of that moment and moments like them.

We have an owner, GM, coaches that are satisfied with this flawed passer not growing. It's good that they want him to play better. But show it! Make Cassel throw the flag under the safety and over the corner every fricken time until he commands that throw. Make Cassel throw a post inside the free safety on cover 3 until he commands it.

Matt Cassel can drive a throw, he can throw for touch...but he isn't a passer. Steve Young once said the difference between him and Mike Vick was thousands of reps at BYU. Cassel needs to get back every rep that he lost at USC. We can't four years in have Cassel learning on the job.

and this is just fantasy -- Matt Cassel does not have Young's ANYTHING. Nothing about Matty C is like Steve Young. Jeesh. Reps won't make him any closer to this statement, either.

[Tombstone RJ]

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Chazz Michael Micheals disagrees

never saw this movie but now I know. Yes, now I know.

[DaWolf]

Funny thing is this goes all the way back to before the season. Romeo was asked about Daboll's offense favouring more of a downfield attack and that this was not a strength of Matt Cassel, and his response was something to the tune of "well, a 20 yard pass downfield could be considered a long throw too." It was bizarre.

I'm not sure what happened, but that hire of Daboll made little sense based on what we have here. Cassel sucks, but what we are seeing here from him this season as well as from the rest of the team are players that are matched up with coaches who have no clue how to even squeeze out a competitive half of football from these guys...

[kcxiv]

and this is just fantasy -- Matt Cassel does not have Young's ANYTHING. Nothing about Matty C is like Steve Young. Jeesh. Reps won't make him any closer to this statement, either.

lol, Young said between him and VICK! They are both Left handed qb's and they both were runners

[Bewbies]

Interesting to read, but I already knew the fix.

Fire all these worthless bastards, draft Geno. Win.

[Hammock Parties]

Cassel sucks, but what we are seeing here from him this season as well as from the rest of the team are players that are matched up with coaches who have no clue how to even squeeze out a competitive half of football from these guys...

That's what happens when you hire guys simply because they're part of the Patriot Tree.

[DaneMcCloud]

I still would love to see Stanzi for the rest of the season.

Me, too.

Guaranteed 1-15 and no more Stanzi talk.

[Easy 6]

Abbreviated version: Romeo sucks for letting it happen, Daboll sucks and is complacent and has no strategic vision for the job, Cassel sucks because he doesnt have ANY of the needed qualities to be a successful starter and is more than happy to play it safe.

More abbreviated version: they all have to go.

[BossChief]

Translation:

Stanzi wants to throw deep more and that will hurt him and if he is to become an effecient passer, he needs to make the 10-25 yard passes his bread and butter.

Cassel is just fine keeping it under 10 yards and that hurts the offense in lots of indirect ways

[SAUTO]

I kind of took it more as Stanzi doesn't understand his limitations
Posted via Mobile Device

[durtyrute]

HIS NAME IS RICKY MUTHAFUCKIN STANZI!

[Psyko Tek]

It's "mind boggling" fyi

fuckin' st00pit donk n00b

[BossChief]

I kind of took it more as Stanzi doesn't understand his limitations
Posted via Mobile Device

Thats what I've been saying since day one and it's valid and a double edged sword. He has the same mentality Brett Favre did that he thinks he can fit any pass into any window and tries to be overly aggressive with his reads. It's why a lot of us called him Brett Favre light.

That same trait would give us a lot of 3 and 4 touchdown games that he also throws 2 picks in. He can definitely win games for you, but on the other hand can also lose them for you, too.

It's the same stuff he did as a junior, but went away from as a senior...showing he is coachable and has the ability to not make those difficult reads when it starts to hurt the team.

We haven't lead in a single game yet, what could it possibly hurt to put the kid out there and let him make some mistakes and see how he bounces back...it's not like Cassel doesn't turn the ball over in bunches...at least Stanzi would make some plays.

[DaneMcCloud]

Come on, how can anyone take these articles seriously?

He used to post here when the site was started and at the old Star forum. He's always been a good dude.

But trying to glean more from that is ludicrous.

[Hoover]

We are idiots for not seeing what Stanzi can do. This team sucks ass, time to see what we have in the garage.

[RealSNR]

Come on, how can anyone take these articles seriously?

He used to post here when the site was started and at the old Star forum. He's always been a good dude.

But trying to glean more from that is ludicrous.
Who's trying to glean anything? This is a sound analysis.

He says what Romeo doesn't have a fucking clue about.

This was like watching a Harry Plinket review of our coaches, QBs, and why the 2012 Chiefs are such an abortion.

[DaneMcCloud]

We are idiots for not seeing what Stanzi can do. This team sucks ass, time to see what we have in the garage.

"We"?

So, you think that the coaches, GM and owner are ignoring his amazing play during the minicamps, training camp and daily practices?

[Reaper16]

Come on, how can anyone take these articles seriously?

He used to post here when the site was started and at the old Star forum. He's always been a good dude.

But trying to glean more from that is ludicrous.

Then what are any of us doing here?

[1ChiefsDan]

I like to shit in a ziploc bags and nail them to random doors.

[Hammock Parties]

It would be cool if they're getting ready to start Stanzi 11/18.

Don't want to rush him in against Pitt.

[DaneMcCloud]

Then what are any of us doing here?

What I'm saying is that no one should make a determination of Ricky Stanzi based on his brief evaluation.

I hate the "myth" of Ricky Stanzi. Truly.

[notorious]

"We"?

So, you think that the coaches, GM and owner are ignoring his amazing play during the minicamps, training camp and daily practices?

Those same coaches, GM, and owner gave us Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn.


I don't trust their judgement, especially at QB.


Stanzi proably sucks, but we might as well find out for sure whether to jettison him or keep him.

[the Talking Can]

that reads like a chinese dude used google translate to describe a dream he had about ricky stanzi riding a unicorn...

[Easy 6]

We haven't lead in a single game yet, what could it possibly hurt to put the kid out there and let him make some mistakes and see how he bounces back...it's not like Cassel doesn't turn the ball over in bunches...at least Stanzi would make some plays.

That.

Even after ALL of this, even as it continues to get worse in EVERY possible way, from the GM to the merchandise retailer... they're still going to shove Matt back out there?... in hopes of saving what? another one or two games?

Stanzi looked bad in preseason? so what, he might be forever ruined by being thrown to the wolves in a bad year? so what... if he's a player, he can play and he'll be fine... if not, no big deal, another fifth rounder isnt hard to come by.

Start Stanzi, right now... the only thing worse than that, is NOT doing that.

[Ace Gunner]

lol, Young said between him and VICK! They are both Left handed qb's and they both were runners

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team consistently and particularly during those games where the other team seems to have everyone's number. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

[Rausch]

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a fucking moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

[DaneMcCloud]

Those same coaches, GM, and owner gave us Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn.

I don't trust their judgement, especially at QB.

Stanzi proably sucks, but we might as well find out for sure whether to jettison him or keep him.

I don't think it's unfair to conclude that everyone in management at One Arrowhead Drive is currently in survival mode.

That being the case, if anyone felt Stanzi should be on the field (let alone, activated), I think it's safe to assume he'd be out there.

[Dave Lane]

Me, too.

Guaranteed 1-15 and no more Stanzi talk.

Either way it's a win.

[Ace Gunner]

We are idiots for not seeing what Stanzi can do. This team sucks ass, time to see what we have in the garage.

I would like to see him play, but I would bet the team is not only concerned for their jobs -- eg "we will play the veteran QB because he gives us the best chance to win" but also because two well built veterans have suffered concussions during the last 3 games and well, Rick Stanzi is not built so sturdy and he's going to struggle a bit at first.

I would like to see them sign a veteran center and move Lilja back to LG because JFC, is there no centers available from other pro leagues right now? Yes. There is. And yes, they would be reliable to get the ball in the air during shotgun instead of bowling and skidding it along the 5 yards of grass between them and the damn QB.

Then maybe think about Stanzi playing.

[Ace Gunner]

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a ****ing moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

Yes, he really is a smart man.

[Silock]

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team consistently and particularly during those games where the other team seems to have everyone's number. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

You missed the point. He wasn't saying anything to relate Matt Cassel's ability with Steve Young's. He was saying that Matt Cassel needs to be forced to do things differently in order to run this offense successfully and that the coaches aren't forcing him to do that. He isn't getting the reps at what makes this offense successful and is just relying on what he is comfortable with in the easy passes.

[Silock]

What I'm saying is that no one should make a determination of Ricky Stanzi based on his brief evaluation.

I hate the "myth" of Ricky Stanzi. Truly.

I didn't get the sense that he was making a final determination on him, just that Stanzi was willing to do more difficult things than the other two and not being rewarded for it.

I think he was saying that Stanzi has more upside than the other two, but no one will ever know because he is never given a chance. The coaches are too stupid to figure out what he is good at and what it really takes to make this offense work.

[Phobia]

Stanzi was brain farting his way through 3rd string defenses the entire pre season and his passes were not on target more often than they were it seemed to me. He had poor decisions during every outing and through a few picks, perhaps one every outing.


Most of this is revisionist history. I'm not going to apologize for Stanzi but his play was tons better than what is implied here. Most of his passes WERE on target but his receivers did him no favors at all. Most Stanzi detractors have judged his entire preseason based on a failed 4th down conversion attempt during which he had a defender on him 3 steps into his drop. He scrambled desperately and eventually was tackled and fumbled. Several planeteers questioned why he didn't throw the ball away... despite the fact it was 4th down. Sure, he had a couple of bad passes but he completed 50% of his throws and had 6 drops in <20 attempts. I don't think any QB can save this franchise under the current circumstances but Stanzi is in no way complete garbage like this board would lead us to believe. But I don't blame people here for their frustration. Any player who has proven nothing but is still hyped eventually leads to haters. Rightfully so. It doesn't really matter who is behind center for this team right now. RGIII would look like crap too. But it would be more interesting watching Stanzi lose than it is watching Cassel or Quinn at this point.

[007]

And it isn't like there is anything to lose going with Stanzi. I'm sure he will be just as bad but what the hell.

[DaneMcCloud]

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

[Phobia]

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

Going in we had Breaston who had a nice 2011, 2 first round draft picks, and McCluster ahead of Wylie. What was your question again?

[Silock]

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

[Rausch]

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

This.

I had high expectations.

Oh well...

[Woodchuck]

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

That dude was a drop machine at Fresno State and he was a drop machine at training camp. He's not going to make it in the NFL imo.

[Dave Lane]

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a ****ing moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

I was gonna call you a moran for saying Young was intelligent. Then I saw the Steve vs Vince and I said ahhhhhh carry on...

[jspchief]

I've always wondered if the coaches get on Cassel for his refusal to stretch the field. Or do they encourage his style of play because that's his ceiling? The fail of the coaching is on level with the QB play.

I also find the comments on Stanzi interesting. If you watched him in preseason, nearly every throw was deep. His reaction to pressure was to bomb it.

I think this guys comments are spot on. The QBs on this team are rudderless. They just go out and do what they are most comfortable with. They're either not being developed or are not taking to the efforts.

This isn't to be taken as defense of the players. It's just a glaring example of how bad the coaching on this team is. With every week I'm more convinced we have the worst staff in the league.

[jspchief]

That dude was a drop machine at Fresno State and he was a drop machine at training camp. He's not going to make it in the NFL imo.

Yeah the two impressions I got from the guy were "fast as hell" and "stone hands".

[TEX]

And it isn't like there is anything to lose going with Stanzi. I'm sure he will be just as bad but what the hell.

He will be worse.

[Ace Gunner]

You missed the point. He wasn't saying anything to relate Matt Cassel's ability with Steve Young's. He was saying that Matt Cassel needs to be forced to do things differently in order to run this offense successfully and that the coaches aren't forcing him to do that. He isn't getting the reps at what makes this offense successful and is just relying on what he is comfortable with in the easy passes.

Perhaps. I don't see it this way. When Haley was here, Cassel was "forced" to make plays we do not see him make this season. Hence Cassel's red zone efficiency during the Haley years.

When Young started out with the 9ers, he would throw wobbly passes to receivers, unsure of his reads, assignments and insecure with his passing mechanics. But, he did what he needed in order to win games -- he ran it when plays where broken from waiting too long or when he saw daylight.

But my point is, he won. He did what he needed to win. It was ugly, whimpy and generally dumb playing on his part. That is still miles ahead of Cassel & Vick because these guys do not engineer wins in any way. Young, in his worst performances, put the team on his shoulders and won. When Matty C wins, it isn't like this. Same with Vick.

They do win, but when this happens, it's because each of these QB's just happened to get some passes off that were on target, allowing their receivers to go full tilt and win. Or, in Cassel's case, Jamaal Charles was on fire that day and combined with a few good, yet rare passes, they win in offensive fashion. See the Seattle game 2010.

[DaKCMan AP]

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL.

:spock:

[Rausch]

:spock:

I think that's a civil way of saying he folds under pressure...

[RealSNR]

He will be worse.

I actually seriously doubt that.

The entire team feels trapped and stuck in a giant hole with no way out when Cassel plays. A REAL change at QB might cause them to actually play better football (thanks RAC, I can never use this phrase again).

Once the Chiefs rack up a 2 game lead for the #1 overall pick, they should go to Stanzi. Odds are they won't need that 2 game lead and will just continue to lose, but better to be safe than sorry.

[Easy 6]

I've always wondered if the coaches get on Cassel for his refusal to stretch the field. Or do they encourage his style of play because that's his ceiling?

Not to defend the coaching in any way at all, but i bet even they know that cassel simply cant hit some of the more difficult throws with any consistency, no matter how many times they have him try it in practice.

They have to play to his weaknesses, or it'd be a five pick fest every single game.

[milkman]

Not to defend the coaching in any way at all, but i bet even they know that cassel simply cant hit some of the more difficult throws with any consistency, no matter how many times they have him try it in practice.

They have to play to his weaknesses, or it'd be a five pick fest every single game.

If you were trying to defend the coaching, you would have failed.

If they he can't hit the more difficult throws, and they have to play to his weaknesses, then they have to adjust their offensive philosophy to maximize his strengths.

They haven't done that.

formerDB really has taken a simple concept and complicated it.

[TEX]

I actually seriously doubt that.

The entire team feels trapped and stuck in a giant hole with no way out when Cassel plays. A REAL change at QB might cause them to actually play better football (thanks RAC, I can never use this phrase again).

Once the Chiefs rack up a 2 game lead for the #1 overall pick, they should go to Stanzi. Odds are they won't need that 2 game lead and will just continue to lose, but better to be safe than sorry.

Oh - Now I see the logic.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Let's play Stanzi. Why not show that Pioli can pull a Brady out of every draft?

[BossChief]

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Dear lord.

How about we scrap the whole fucking lot of them?

LMAO

Why does there even exist a post in which the likes of the absolute dogshit QB's on this team find themselves in the company of Manning?

Maybe Manning needs his car washed...

[Woodchuck]

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

All I know is that if he doesn't start a game this season, he fucking sucks and shouldn't even be at KC's training camp next year.

[Fish]

Remember when Scott Pioli told us during the offseason that one of the goals this year would be to provide competition at the QB position? Remember that?

Glad ol' Scott took care of that worry for us......

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

All I know is that if he doesn't start a game this season, he fucking sucks and shouldn't even be at KC's training camp next year.

He's nothing more than a backup and might even be a good one. Who gives a fuck about our backups?!?

Eyes on the prize = Geno.

[RealSNR]

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?Drew Brees back in San Diego?

Dude was replaced by Jim Harbaugh because he sucked in the beginning of his career. Harbaugh retired, the Chargers drafted Rivers, and Brees had one year to himself. He was incredibly successful, which earned him the deal in New Orleans.

[DaneMcCloud]

Drew Brees back in San Diego?

Dude was replaced by John Harbaugh because he sucked in the beginning of his career. Harbaugh retired, the Chargers drafted Rivers, and Brees had one year to himself. He was incredibly successful, which earned him the deal in New Orleans.

That's a slight exaggeration.

Brees has a medical issue with his shoulder and no one else would take a chance on him. The Saints were rewarded with their faith in the doctors but it just have easily could have gone the other way.

Hence Saban at Alabama.

[BossChief]

John Harbaugh has a way of indirectly making franchise quarterbacks.

Peyton Manning, too.

[RealSNR]

Actually, this is kind of a fun game.

How about Matt Hasselbeck? Holmgren got so frustrated he fooled around with Brock Huard for awhile before he said, "Fuck this. Bring in Hasselbeck."

Along those same lines, Jon Kitna was equally as dreadful in 1999 and 2000, but eventually got his shit together after being benched. Did very well for Cincinnati that year they drafted and sat Carson Palmer for the first season. Almost got Detroit to the playoffs when they were REALLY terrible, too.

[RealSNR]

That's a slight exaggeration.

Brees has a medical issue with his shoulder and no one else would take a chance on him. The Saints were rewarded with their faith in the doctors but it just have easily could have gone the other way.

Hence Saban at Alabama.

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a fucking idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

[DaneMcCloud]

John Harbaugh?

Uh, what?

[DaneMcCloud]

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a fucking idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

Marty for GM!

And Marty for President of the Universe!

[BossChief]

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a fucking idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

yup

[RealSNR]

There are quite a few guys who couldn't hack it with one team and got benched, but then did well in a change of environment. But that's not quite the same thing. Or they got injured and their replacements were just that damn good that they rode the pine permanently, but still went on to have not so terrible NFL careers.

Trent Dilfer (benched for Shaun King)
Kurt Warner (injury with the Giants, deemed a brokedick, went to Arizona)
Brad Johnson (replaced by Randall Cunningham in Minnesota, but only because Johnson was hurt)
Trent Green (we all know what happened there)

I could have sworn there was some story where Jeff Garcia was benched for poor play as well, but that might be inaccurate. The guy has just been with so many teams that it seems like that would have happened to him somewhere along the way

[RealSNR]

John Harbaugh?

Uh, what?
Fuck. Jim Harbaugh.

Ten years ago I didn't know Jim Harbaugh even had a brother who coached. Now I can't keep them straight.

[DaneMcCloud]

Fuck. Jim Harbaugh.

Ten years ago I didn't know Jim Harbaugh even had a brother who coached. Now I can't keep them straight.

LMAO

Both you and BossChiefs kept referring to John, so I thought I was missing something.

[milkman]

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

The closest I can come to this is Terry Bradshaw being benched as the starter for the last 4 or 5 games in his rookie season in favor of Terry Hanratty.

[BossChief]

LMAO

Both you and BossChiefs kept referring to John, so I thought I was missing something.haha oops

The closest I can come to this is Terry Bradshaw being benched as the starter for the last 4 or 5 games in his rookie season in favor of Terry Hanratty.

This isn't the first time you have brought up Terry Bradshaw in Stanzi related threads.

I like it.

[whoman69]

I look at it like this.

Cassel = proven fail
Quinn = proven fail despite the limited look
Stanzi = maybe

The season is over for the year. The Chiefs have to look to the future. Quinn and Cassel are obviously not that future. We need to see if Stanzi can be.

[Ace Gunner]

Phil Simms was a 4th year starter for big blue, got hurt/lost for season. Lost the starting job mid season the following year to a no name, was named the starter the following season, won 2 championships, though he was injured during the playoffs and hostetler actually played/won the second champioship game.

And he did suck those first seasons before being benched.

[Phobia]

Phil Simms is one of the HOF's many mistakes at the QB position.

[Ace Gunner]

Phil Simms is one of the HOF's many mistakes at the QB position.

whoops. My mistake -- corrected. Not HOF.

[Ace Gunner]

I go back and forth on Simms. He was a very mistake prone QB those first seasons and like many Chiefs fans today, I (and most Giants fans) had been through a losing decade of misery when suddenly the team began to play better adding better players from the draft etc. Simms came on the scene and seemed to hinder progress in the eyes of fans, anyway, with his dumb mistakes.

But the reason I brought it up was that he is a rare person to accomplish this. He really did lead the Giants during much of the eighties, though LT and others on the defense were revered to be the big leaders of that team.

I hear his name bandied during HOF committee meetings. He is borderline, no doubt. I would be okay with it either way. He was a gritty player and the Giants could not have won without him. Not big anyway. But, he was never as flashy as other QB's of his time.

Those NFC playoff games of the eighties were dynamite kegged with brutality. The Bears, Redskins and 49ers games were annual beatdowns of the highest order.

[MahiMike]

"The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way".

Actually, the status quo is perfect for 1-15. Keep up the good work and don't change a thing.

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by BossChief
I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

I remember McNabb got benched for Kolb in 2008 for a short time when they were .500. He came back and led Philly to the wildcard and went on to the NFC Championship where they lost to the Cardinals.

[Phobia]

whoops. My mistake -- corrected. Not HOF.

Thank goodness. Seems sketchy if so.

[Saccopoo]

I look at it like this.

Cassel = proven fail
Quinn = proven fail despite the limited look
Stanzi = maybe

The season is over for the year. The Chiefs have to look to the future. Quinn and Cassel are obviously not that future. We need to see if Stanzi can be.

He couldn't beat out either Cassel or Quinn.

Stanzi doesn't even dress for games.

Fuck no.

Draft two new studs. Geno and then Nassib in the third and pick up a free agent veteran.

Flush all these worthless turds.

[Hammock Parties]

Phil Simms = Trent Green

[whoman69]

Does anyone believe Cassel will learn from his mistakes. If anything he is regressing. According to him he's still playing at a high level. He needs to change his standards and not settle for crap.

[Easy 6]

Does anyone believe Cassel will learn from his mistakes. If anything he is regressing. According to him he's still playing at a high level. He needs to change his standards and not settle for crap.

I certainly dont think he can, the only way he can look like an even average starting QB is to have a very bright OC who knows exactly how to hide his many flaws.

I'm sure cassel would love to be able to change his standards, but the fact is, he cant... his physical limitations simply wont allow him to be any better, no number of reps working on the tougher throws can get him there... hell, even if he had better physical and innate timing/touch tools, he would still crumble in the face of pressure and make rivers-like mental errors at the worst possible times.

[milkman]

I certainly dont think he can, the only way he can look like an even average starting QB is to have a very bright OC who knows exactly how to hide his many flaws.

I'm sure cassel would love to be able to change his standards, but the fact is, he cant... his physical limitations simply wont allow him to be any better, no number of reps working on the tougher throws can get him there... hell, even if he had better physical tools, he would still crumble in the face of pressure and make rivers-like mental errors at the worst possible times.

There have been a few physically limited QBs that have had success, even excelled.

The primary reason for Matt Cassel's failure is all mental.

He can not read a defense, can't get through his progressions, and can't see beyond pressure.

It's all about football IQ and mental toughness.

[Easy 6]

There have been a few physically limited QBs that have had success, even excelled.

The primary reason for Matt Cassel's failure is all mental.

He can not read a defense, can't get through his progressions, and can't see beyond pressure.

It's all about football IQ and mental toughness.

I totally agree, a guy like Drew Brees isnt big and physical, doesnt have a bazooka... but he has everything else you mention in spades.

[RealSNR]

There have been a few physically limited QBs that have had success, even excelled.

The primary reason for Matt Cassel's failure is all mental.

He can not read a defense, can't get through his progressions, and can't see beyond pressure.

It's all about football IQ and mental toughness.Scott Pioli told us he "loved football" and was a perfect guy to represent an organization. Does that count?

[milkman]

Scott Pioli told us he "loved football" and was a perfect guy to represent an organization. Does that count?

Sure, in the PR department.

[Tombstone RJ]

****in' st00pit donk n00b

check out my join date moron, then suck on it.