Football The GM or the Head Coach? [Archive]

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 07:16 PM

Which should come first?

The Chiefs have followed the GM/HC model since Carl Peterson. But what about Whitlock's argument that they should pick the HC first and then let the coach and owner pick personnel people?

I'm coming around to the coach-first strategy, which may be why Pioli hasn't been canned yet.

It might be an added incentive for a coach like Chip Kelly to get the chance to build the whole system.

Your thoughts?

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 07:17 PM

Team president, GM, coach. All three need to work together towards one common goal. None of this bullshit where one guy has all the power or too much power and the other two don't have much say.

Whitlock's way off base.

DeezNutz

11-19-2012, 07:17 PM

Yeah, Chip Kelly. No thanks. Not now.

Phobia

11-19-2012, 07:18 PM

I don't care. I just want wins.

Iowanian

11-19-2012, 07:18 PM

Give the GM the Ned Stark treatment and the new GM can come in and burn out the rest of the rats in the village.

Why continue to pay Team Pioli to scout draft picks they won't be screwing up for KC this year.....

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 07:19 PM

Yeah, Chip Kelly. No thanks. Not now.

He was shut down by a Pro-Style defense on Saturday and I see that happening against UCLA and Mora as well.

I think his "genius" has been overstated.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 07:19 PM

Ok, dumb question. What does an NFL Team President do that is different from a GM?

I seriously have no idea.

Bugeater

11-19-2012, 07:20 PM

Ok, dumb question. What does an NFL Team President do that is different from a GM?

I seriously have no idea.
Duh...important president stuff.

seclark

11-19-2012, 07:21 PM

I don't care. I just want wins.

this^
i'm tired of making the decisions when no one's listening to me.
sec

Bugeater

11-19-2012, 07:22 PM

Did sec say something? I wasn't listening.

ChiefsCountry

11-19-2012, 07:22 PM

Ok, dumb question. What does an NFL Team President do that is different from a GM?

I seriously have no idea.

In the NFL, Team President is normally the business guy who oversees the ticket sales, marketing, sponsorships, stadium issues, leases, etc. General Manager is normally the football guy - hires the coaches, signs players, scouting, deals with agents etc.

Very few are qualified to do both ala Carl Peterson.

seclark

11-19-2012, 07:23 PM

Did sec say something? I wasn't listening.

that's what i'm fuckin sayin.
sec

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 07:25 PM

In the NFL, Team President is normally the business guy who oversees the ticket sales, marketing, sponsorships, stadium issues, leases, etc. General Manager is normally the football guy - hires the coaches, signs players, scouting, deals with agents etc.

Awesome, thanks.

So does Donovan survive this purge?

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 07:27 PM

For some reason I've been pulling for Bill Polian lately even though his ending in Indianapolis ended badly and his drafts sucked the last several years. With that said the guy has turned around every franchise he's been with.

Reaper16

11-19-2012, 07:29 PM

It's probably a mistake to assume Chip Kelley is only as good as the offensive scheme his team is using. Or to think that the 2012 Oregon scheme is the only thing he can coach.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 07:30 PM

I'd advocate for Marc Ross over Polian. But what the hell do I know? I thought Pioli was a great hire.

ChiefsCountry

11-19-2012, 07:31 PM

So does Donovan survive this purge?

I would say so. There has been some shitty things in the business side but they have done some good as well. The tv and video work coming out of Arrowhead is pretty bad ass and they are getting major concerts at Arrowhead.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 07:31 PM

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 07:36 PM

I'd advocate for Marc Ross over Polian. But what the hell do I know? I thought Pioli was a great hire.

I was one of the first to pimp Ross but I think Clark is going to go for someone with experience :(

Sorter

11-19-2012, 07:40 PM

He was shut down by a Pro-Style defense on Saturday and I see that happening against UCLA and Mora as well.

I think his "genius" has been overstated.

You do realize he beat the same defense the two years prior while Stanford had Andrew Luck?

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 07:46 PM

You do realize he beat the same defense the two years prior while Stanford had Andrew Luck?

Yep, but he lost to LSU last year as well.

All I saying is that I don't know if there's enough evidence to say that he'll be a good NFL coach.

FloridaMan88

11-19-2012, 08:00 PM

First order of business is for Clark to put a firewall between the business/non-football operations and football operations.

Bringing back Denny Thum in a leadership capacity to help flush out the Fat Scott stain from the business/non-football operations wouldn't be a bad idea.

FloridaMan88

11-19-2012, 08:02 PM

I still like Chip Kelly. Everyone who knows him talks about his organizational skills and ability to bring things together. I'll take intellect and fearlessness any day. If we're talking about building something that's uniquely KC, we could do worse.

Problem with Chip Kelly is he has zero connection to the NFL. Not as a player or a coach.

College coaches with little/no NFL experience who run college-style offenses have a bad track record in the NFL.

DeezNutz

11-19-2012, 08:03 PM

The biggest problem with Chip Kelly is that he's an enormous risk, and Pioli has driven this franchise so far into the ground that Clark cannot afford to take this type of gamble.

-King-

11-19-2012, 08:06 PM

Unless you're hiring a coach that will also be the GM, I have no idea why you'd ever hire the coach first.

DeezNutz

11-19-2012, 08:08 PM

Unless you're hiring a coach that will also be the GM, I have no idea why you'd ever hire the coach first.

STL's model was to hire Fisher and then allow him to handpick a GM whom he could work with.

This approach would be just fine with me. There needs to be a check and balance system, and we need a proven HC.

BigMeatballDave

11-19-2012, 08:09 PM

Doesn't make any sense to me to hire the HC before the GM.

JohnnyHammersticks

11-19-2012, 08:10 PM

Why don't we do both, PLUS, keep the Patriot Way going? We should hire Josh McDaniels and give him total power--GM and HC--just like they did in Denver.

I just don't see how that could possibly end badly...

-King-

11-19-2012, 08:10 PM

STL's model was to hire Fisher and then allow him to handpick a GM whom he could work with.

This approach would be just fine with me. There needs to be a check and balance system, and we need a proven HC.

But isn't Fisher basically the GM there also? And Les Snead is the GM in name only.

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 08:14 PM

Polian/Cowher

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 08:15 PM

Polian/Cowher

Two dinosaurs?

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 08:17 PM

Two dinosaurs?

Two proven winners. Clark isn't going to take a risk with an unproven GM or HC again. He can't afford to.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 08:21 PM

I'm just not sure Cowher will stay long enough to make it worth it. I want someone who's young enough to have longevity.

Kelly, Shaw, Fewell, Jay Gruden, etc.

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 08:23 PM

I want Mike McCoy the guy is a brilliant mind and a disciplinarian. Exactly what this team needs.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 08:24 PM

I want Mike McCoy the guy is a brilliant mind and a disciplinarian. Exactly what this team needs.

I could handle McCoy. He has definitely proven the adaptability to manage different offensive approaches.

And young enough to last a long time.

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 08:25 PM

I want Mike McCoy the guy is a brilliant mind and a disciplinarian. Exactly what this team needs.

He's linked with Carolina

Psyko Tek

11-19-2012, 08:25 PM

Duh...important president stuff.

interns, cigars?
I can do that

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 08:25 PM

Two proven winners. Clark isn't going to take a risk with an unproven GM or HC again. He can't afford to.

Meh

Reaper16

11-19-2012, 08:28 PM

Can we hire Greg Roman as head coach?

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 08:32 PM

I'm just not sure Cowher will stay long enough to make it worth it. I want someone who's young enough to have longevity.

Kelly, Shaw, Fewell, Jay Gruden, etc.

I like Shaw and Gruden too. I really think Shaw could work because he has connections with Rex Ryan. If Rex Ryan is fired you pay him to be the highest DC in the league. Ryan with Houston/Hali/Berry/Flowers http://imageshack.us/a/img841/866/11858269er0tap.png

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 08:37 PM

I just want the HC to be a big picture guy, who can bring multiple parts together and develop/execute a game strategy. Someone who is a fluid thinker and able to adapt in-game, manage time, use challenges wisely, and build a team around him who will function cohesively.

I'm more apt to be interested in someone with head coaching experience at a college level than purely an assistant in the NFL. But if they've done both, bonus.

Titty Meat

11-19-2012, 08:43 PM

I agree with you on that I think a good coaching staff around him is important too. I actually just fell in love with David Shawn thinking about bringing guys like Rex Ryan & Hue Jackson with him. Accountability is the #1 issue with this team and those guys will fix that.

DaWolf

11-19-2012, 08:48 PM

It doesn't matter what we want. Clark wants the GM first. His whole ideal scenario is to emulate the Steelers and Giants by building a stable, long term structure in the front office with an evaluator who is going to determine what Chiefs football is going to be, who is going to build the team in that vision, and who is going to hire head coaches to carry out that vision. That's what he wants.

You hire a head coach first, and as soon as that coach is done or gets bored or the team starts tuning him out, you start over.

I think that's what he's struggling with right now, because firing Pioli four years in goes totally against his vision. Yet you cannot deny the ineptitude that is out there on the field thanks to Pioli.

But at the end of the day, I don't care how good your front office is, if you don't have a legit head coach, forget about it...

MTG#10

11-19-2012, 08:59 PM

MehFucking cum stain

CLX

11-19-2012, 09:06 PM

I voted for the GM first, but that was because there wasn't an option there to find a new owner first.

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 09:07 PM

Fucking cum stain

LMAO

JFC, you're a pussy.

LMAO

displacedinMN

11-19-2012, 09:18 PM

I don't care. I just want wins.

I would settle for competitive and a loss of less than 10 points

dallaschiefsfan

11-19-2012, 09:22 PM

DaWolf

11-19-2012, 09:58 PM

This concerns me more than anything...that his desire for stability is stronger than his desire to win. Winning creates stability...not the other way around. I'm not sure Clark is sold on that.

My biggest fear is that Pioli is able to sell him on the idea that he's made mistakes but is learning from those mistakes and growing into the job. I could almost see Clark as naive enough to buy that if the stories of how tight he and Pioli are are true...

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:00 PM

I really really really don't care about Romeo. He is irrelevant. Its all about Pioli. If Pioli stays it doesn't matter who the head coach is. If he is fired, Romeo is a lock to be gone. Honestly, the only thing a firing of Romeo would do is make us all worry that Clark is letting Pioli throw Romeo under the bus. Romeo sticking around could actually be a good thing.

Dave Lane

11-19-2012, 10:08 PM

The biggest problem with Chip Kelly is that he's an enormous risk, and Pioli has driven this franchise so far into the ground that Clark cannot afford to take this type of gamble.

Sadly this is accurate. He needs to hire a retread with a track record. Gruden, Cowher, Reid some one that can inspire hope and excitement to the mentally challenged Debs of the world.

I'd much rather go with a Haley type young gun head coach we can break-in the way we want and can grow into the next best thing.

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:12 PM

Sadly this is accurate. He needs to hire a retread with a track record. Gruden, Cowher, Reid some one that can inspire hope and excitement to the mentally challenged Debs of the world.

I'd much rather go with a Haley type young gun head coach we can break-in the way we want and can grow into the next best thing.

If nothing else, the Chiefs hiring Gruden would make MNF easier to listen to. That being said, I would hope that the new GM goes after the best candidate and doesn't worry about making the sexy pick.

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 10:13 PM

If nothing else, the Chiefs hiring Gruden would make MNF easier to listen to. That being said, I would hope that the new GM goes after the best candidate and doesn't worry about making the sexy pick.

I really don't like Gruden.

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:16 PM

I really don't like Gruden.

I like Mike, they just need to find him a decent color guy. MNF and Collinsworth, man they haven't had a good color guy on either show in forever.

If you were only referring to him as our coach, I too do not want him.

CaliforniaChief

11-19-2012, 10:18 PM

It's interesting how conservative the Hunts have been when you think about the founder of it all, H.L. Hunt. (Lamar's dad, Clark's grandfather)

The guy was basically broke and turned his last $100 over to gambling, only to win $100,000 and invest it in an oil exploration company. The guy had 3 wives, 14 kids, and he lobotomized his eldest son because he was "acting erratically." (Wikipedia)

I guess sometimes we emulate our parents, and other times we do the exact opposite.

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:19 PM

DaneMcCloud

11-19-2012, 10:20 PM

I like Mike, they just need to find him a decent color guy. MNF and Collinsworth, man they haven't had a good color guy on either show in forever.

If you were only referring to him as our coach, I too do not want him.

Yeah, I was referring to him as coach.

Half the time, I have the volume off when watching football, especially MNF.

I do enjoy Al Michaels but he's really the only guy I like, outside of Gus Johnson.

ChiefsCountry

11-19-2012, 10:21 PM

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:23 PM

Yeah, I was referring to him as coach.

Half the time, I have the volume off when watching football, especially MNF.

I do enjoy Al Michaels but he's really the only guy I like, outside of Gus Johnson.

I mute it a lot as well. Usually playing video games on the other TV. I am ok with most of the CBS crews. Gus Johnson used to give me a heart attack. I will never forget his call of the Chiefs vs. Jaguars game when Quinn Gray came in and almost stole the game from us. QUUUUUUUUUUUIIIIIIINNNNNN GRRRRRAYYYYYYYYY!

NJChiefsFan

11-19-2012, 10:27 PM

Colinsworth is a damn good color guy.

Which part? The part where he only talks about big names or the part when he over-exaggerates every play. "That would have been a TD if he didn't get him there". Replay shows three guys ready to make the tackle. IMO he is the worst. I almost puked when NBC let him do some Olympic coverage. To each his own I guess. On top of it all his voice is like nails on a chalkboard.

DaWolf

11-19-2012, 10:27 PM

I think Gruden ends up in San Diego or Philly...

BlackHelicopters

11-20-2012, 07:16 AM

GM first please.

KC_Lee

11-20-2012, 07:23 AM

Who was hired first in Atlanta? The HC Smith or the GM Dimitrioff (sp?)?

I'd follow that model.

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 07:23 AM

Petro has been saying this for about a week, too.

Go get your HC FIRST. Then have him bring in a GM. He says the NFL is changing, head coaches are too important, and if you look at teams like Green Bay, the relationship is more functional when the GM doesn't have total control.

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 07:26 AM

Sadly this is accurate. He needs to hire a retread with a track record. Gruden, Cowher, Reid some one that can inspire hope and excitement to the mentally challenged Debs of the world.

I'd much rather go with a Haley type young gun head coach we can break-in the way we want and can grow into the next best thing.

Sadly?

What this team REALLY needs is a guy that has yet to win a Super Bowl but has been a head coach elsewhere.

Rausch

11-20-2012, 07:27 AM

Sadly?

What this team REALLY needs is a guy that has yet to win a Super Bowl but has been a head coach elsewhere.

Well, that makes him a retread to CP.

Completely unacceptable...

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 07:30 AM

Well, that makes him a retread to CP.

Completely unacceptable...

To me, "retread" is somebody who has coached here before.

Marty is a "retread". Cowher is a "retread".

Andy Reid is not a retread. I'm not sure I like him as a HC (seems to have Martz-esque troubles with a balanced offense at times, moving an offensive line coach to DC seems monumentally stupid) but he fits the bill - 2nd job, no ring.

Rausch

11-20-2012, 07:37 AM

To me, "retread" is somebody who has coached here before.

Marty is a "retread". Cowher is a "retread".

Andy Reid is not a retread. I'm not sure I like him as a HC (seems to have Martz-esque troubles with a balanced offense at times, moving an offensive line coach to DC seems monumentally stupid) but he fits the bill - 2nd job, no ring.

To me a retread is a guy who moves from place to place never really accomplishing $3it.

Parcells was not a retread. He won everywhere he went.

Cowher = 1 HC job.
Reid = 1 HC job.
Gruden = built one team that went to an AFCC game and the SB the next year. Took a team his first year to the SB and DESTROYED his old team.

The idea that a team doesn't need a motivator as HC is the dumbest thing I keep hearing on here. I don't care where you work a positive mindset combined with competent execution of your goals is why any business works...

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 07:40 AM

To me a retread is a guy who moves from place to place never really accomplishing $3it.

Parcells was not a retread. He won everywhere he went.

Cowher = 1 HC job.
Reid = 1 HC job.
Gruden = built one team that went to an AFCC game and the SB the next year. Took a team his first year to the SB and DESTROYED his old team.

The idea that a team doesn't need a motivator as HC is the dumbest thing I keep hearing on here. I don't care where you work a positive mindset combined with competent execution of your goals is why any business works...

The difference with Cowher and Gruden is that they've already won a ring. I don't know necessarily why it's the case, but it is a fact that nobody has ever won one with 2 different teams.

I'm not a fan of trying to defy history...

Rausch

11-20-2012, 07:43 AM

I'm not a fan of trying to defy history...

If we don't starting learning how to defy history we'll never have a franchise QB and will only win one more playoff game over the next 40 years.

Defying history is EXACTLY what we're looking for...

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 07:47 AM

If we don't starting learning how to defy history we'll never have a franchise QB and will only win one more playoff game over the next 40 years.

Defying history is EXACTLY what we're looking for...

This team not drafting a QB, or winning a playoff game in 20 years, isn't the same. Since 1983, we've had only 2 owners and 3 GMs. That's too small a sample size to call it a "trend".

On the other hand, you can take the history of EVERY team and EVERY coach over the course of nearly a century - that's a sample size in the thousands - and not find a single coach that has won a championship with 2 different teams.

They're not even close to the same idea. What you want is not defying history, it's simply changing behavior.

Rausch

11-20-2012, 07:56 AM

This team not drafting a QB, or winning a playoff game in 20 years, isn't the same.

I would argue it is.

Bad teams with franchise QB's have knocked us out of the playoffs every year going back to 94...

Since 1983, we've had only 2 owners and 3 GMs. That's too small a sample size to call it a "trend".

You can't be fucking serious.

30 years is too small a sample size?...

On the other hand, you can take the history of EVERY team and EVERY coach over the course of nearly a century - that's a sample size in the thousands - and not find a single coach that has won a championship with 2 different teams.

Parcells Won a SB.
Won an AFCC game (Patriots.) That's two champ games in two different conferences.
Then took the Jets to the AFCC game.

At this hour I'm not sure about the chronological order there but you get the point...

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 08:02 AM

I would argue it is.

Bad teams with franchise QB's have knocked us out of the playoffs every year going back to 94...

Yep. THAT is the historical trend. History suggests we should draft a franchise QB if we want to win in the playoffs.

You can't be ****ing serious.

30 years is too small a sample size?...

30 years with ONE owner. That's not a historical trend, that's a behavioral issue.

Parcells Won a SB.
Won an AFCC game (Patriots.) That's two champ games in two different conferences.
Then took the Jets to the AFCC game.

At this hour I'm not sure about the chronological order there but you get the point...

And I'm sure Patriot and Jets fans were perfectly happy with Parcells NOT winning a Super Bowl there. Our goal isn't to make it to an AFC Championship game. Hell, Marty did that. Let's bring him back.

Rausch

11-20-2012, 08:07 AM

30 years with ONE owner. That's not a historical trend, that's a behavioral issue.

Two.

And we don't get to draft or sign a new one of those...

And I'm sure Patriot and Jets fans were perfectly happy with Parcells NOT winning a Super Bowl there. Our goal isn't to make it to an AFC Championship game. Hell, Marty did that. Let's bring him back.

I would JIMP if we made an AFCC game at this point.

This team is a joke on the level of the Lions, Browns, or Seahawks.

We need a HC with lofty goals and practical applications...

htismaqe

11-20-2012, 08:14 AM

Two.

And we don't get to draft or sign a new one of those...

The current owner learned everything he knows about football from the former owner. There's no clean break in philosophy there - at least not yet.

The point is that what we've done in the past is not a historical trend. There aren't enough data points. If you want to discuss what we've done in relativity to the rest of the league, when it comes to drafting and developing QBs, then we can talk about historical trends. This team constitutes one large, 30-year data point in that analysis and it's not flattering for sure.

I would JIMP if we made an AFCC game at this point.

This team is a joke on the level of the Lions, Browns, or Seahawks.

We need a HC with lofty goals and practical applications...

In same ways I understand that mindset and that's fine for the fans. However, in the end, the goal is to win it all.