An addition to the Pioli resume

[OnTheWarpath15]

I was bored, thought I'd run some numbers - hadn't done any Chiefs-related homework in a while.

Anywho, discussion in another thread got me to thinking about the "talent level" on this team. People seem to be getting back in the habit of blaming specifically the QB and coaching, while claiming that this roster, and those before it are loaded with talent.

For a team that supposedly has talent, all they've done is beat up on the weak sisters of the poor over the last 4 years of the Pioli Nightmare.

23 wins in 4 years.

Those 23 wins came against teams with a collective 152-214 record and a .415 winning percentage. You can thank Green Bay dropping a metric fuckton of passes back in December of 2011 - take them out of the equation, and you're looking at a .375 winning percentage.

1 win in 4 years against a 10-win or better team.

3 wins in 4 years against a 9-win or better team.

20 wins against 8-8 teams or worse - 11 of those wins against teams with 6 wins or less.

So the "Executive of the Decade" was responsible for 5.75 wins per year, and we should consider ourselves lucky we "earned" that many.

In this era of parity in the NFL, a team with this much "talent" would be winning more than 5.75 games per year. Even without a QB. Even without a QB and HC.

Folks say that Mark Sanchez is a POS, and that we have more talent than the Jets. The same Jets that have won 34 games in the last 4 years. 11 more than the Chiefs.

Buffalo has shit for talent, plays in a brutal division, and has 2 fewer wins over the same time period.

Cleveland is hot garbage, and they've won 4 fewer games over the past 4 years. 1 game a year difference.

Jacksonville has 1 fewer win.

Miami has 4 MORE wins.

Oakland has 2 MORE wins.


The overwhelming majority of this board would claim that we have more "talent" than every one of the above teams.

The overwhelming majority of this board would claim that our QB play has been at least as good as the above teams, and in most cases, better.

The overwhelming majority of this board would claim that our coaching has been at least as good as the above teams, and in most cases, better.


The overwhelming majority of this board would be dead wrong on one of those three assessments. One of these things is not like the other.

Folks, it's time to wake up and realize that QB and HC are just part of the problem.

I see a lot of bad teams with bad QB's and bad HC's that have won as much or more than we have.

Sadly, the bottom line is that there isn't nearly as much "talent" on this roster that you think there is - and that we're a lot closer to the Cleveland's, Buffalo's and Jacksonville's of the NFL than you want to admit.

[SAUTO]

Coaching has been at least as bad as all those teams. Qb had been at least as bad too. Probably worse in both cases.

I'm in the camp that we are a very talented team that is in the same mindset as poor old lomas brown.

They hate their qbs and know every Sunday they don't have a very good chance of winning behind them.

Or coaching hasn't helped either.
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

So you're saying we have a roster chock full of talented quitters.

Got it.

[Dayze]

when Pioli goes, can he take his 'scouts' with him?

[The Franchise]

So you're saying we have a roster chock full of talented quitters.

Got it.

Well now we know why Hillis chose to sign here.

[DeezNutz]

So you're saying we have a roster chock full of talented quitters.

Got it.

We're in much the same position now as in '09. There is a talented core of players. Unfortunately, the majority of this core is now four years older because Pioli was truly terrible at his job.

[SAUTO]

So you're saying we have a roster chock full of talented quitters.

Got it.
I would call them frustrated.


Or lacking in direction.


No QUALITY leadership from the top down.

How could any team win like that?


this organization is a total cluster fuck and when it gets straightened out I think you will be surprised how everything changes
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

Even if the QB was "as bad" as those other teams.

Even if the coaching was "as bad" as those other teams.

This insane amount of talent some of you claim we have would be winning games.

These other teams are winning as many games or MORE without the QB, HC or the talent.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I would call them frustrated.


Or lacking in direction.


No QUALITY leadership from the top down.

How could any team win like that?


this organization is a total cluster fuck and when it gets straightened out I think you will be surprised how everything changes
Posted via Mobile Device

There's no leadership with Buffalo, Jacksonville, Oakland etc. either.

Yet they've won as many games or more than we have in the past 4 years, and with way less talent, according to the majority of this board.

Straightened out = drafting talented players.

[BossChief]

The bills have 21 wins the last 4 years
The Jaguars have 22
The Raiders have 25
The Chiefs have 23

Thats just sad.

[Dayze]

yeah, but our tailgating rules; / ALL CAPS DEB

[SAUTO]

There's no leadership with Buffalo, Jacksonville, Oakland etc. either.

Yet they've won as many games or more than we have in the past 4 years, and with way less talent, according to the majority of this board.

Straightened out = drafting talented players. Oakland seems to have changed their whole philosophy between last year and this. We should probably not lump them in quote yet. small sample size.

Jax sucks yes.

Buffalo has Chan gailey the chicken salad out of chicken shit guy. They made a mistake at the qb position...

Ohhhhhh maybe THAT'S the defining factor in all the teams you mentioned.

A franchise qb.
Posted via Mobile Device

[The Franchise]

yeah, but our tailgating rules; / 90% of Chiefs fans

FYP

[SAUTO]

Oak. Cle. Buff. Jets. Chiefs.

Not a franchise qb on any of them.


Thanks for the research in proving how valuable the qb is otwp
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

Oakland seems to have changed their whole philosophy between last year and this. We should probably not lump them in quote yet. small sample size.

Jax sucks yes.

Buffalo has Chan gailey the chicken salad out of chicken shit guy. They made a mistake at the qb position...

Ohhhhhh maybe THAT'S the defining factor in all the teams you mentioned.

A franchise qb.
Posted via Mobile Device


Jason, you're missing the point.

All these teams have bad QB play.

All of these teams suffer from poor coaching/leadership.

But posters here seem to think we have a ton of talent that these other teams don't have - yet they've all won as many games (or more) than we have in the past 4 years.

[SAUTO]

The bills have 21 wins the last 4 years
The Jaguars have 22
The Raiders have 25
The Chiefs have 23

Thats just sad. and the difference between a couple wins?

Luck.

All those teams are going to suck until they find a qb.
Posted via Mobile Device

[SAUTO]

Jason, you're missing the point.

All these teams have bad QB play.

All of these teams suffer from poor coaching/leadership.

But posters here seem to think we have a ton of talent that these other teams don't have - yet they've all won as many games (or more) than we have in the past 4 years.
again sometimes that's just the way the ball bounces. Luck.


We are all in the same boat.

We are a talented team. They all gave talented players
Posted via Mobile Device

[SAUTO]

Have talented players.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ChiefGator]

So, we are a talented team, just like Jax, Oakland, and Buffalo?

I agree that there is in general a sentiment that we are a talented team, but if we are now agreeing that all the teams in the NFL are "talented" than I guess that doesn't leave us very well off.

[Hammock Parties]

Talent level on this team, outside the Herm players, is about average.

That's not nearly good enough when your QB is utter shit.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Talent level on this team, outside the Herm players, is about average.

That's not nearly good enough when your QB is utter shit.

And the talent level on teams such as Buffalo, Oakland, Jacksonville, etc is well below average, their QB play is utter shit, yet they've won as many games as we have over the past 4 years.

[Hammock Parties]

Sadly, I think guys like Fitzpatrick and Henne are better than Cassel. Palmer certainly is.

We're splitting hairs, though. This isn't, and never was, one of the best rosters in the NFL. It's near league average, give or take.

[keg in kc]

A league average team with a franchise QB can compete for a title. A league average team with Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn coached by Romeo Crennel can compete for a #1 pick.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Sadly, I think guys like Fitzpatrick and Henne are better than Cassel. Palmer certainly is.

We're splitting hairs, though. This isn't, and never was, one of the best rosters in the NFL. It's near league average, give or take.

We're talking over 4 years though. Palmer covers a year and a half.

Henne covers something like 6 games. Christ, Jacksonville pulled a guy off a fucking tractor a few years back.

So again...

KC's QB play is at least as good, if not better than these teams from 2009-2012.

KC's coaching is at least as good, of not better.

KC's so-called talent level is supposedly leaps and bounds ahead of Buffalo, Oakland, Cleveland, Miami and Jacksonville - yet it hasn't translated into more wins.

Why?

Hint: It's because this roster isn't as talented as people think it is.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Chock full of losers. Absolutely.

[lcarus]

Well now we know why Hillis chose to sign here.

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[aturnis]

So you're saying we have a roster chock full of talented quitters.

Got it.

So the Colts QB fluctuation over the past 3 years hasn't shown you just how important the QB is?

Or now that Manning is in Denver? Or Russell Wilson? A QB fixes a LOT of bad things. How many wins can an elite QB account for?

Don't forget the QB's on his team have thrown 4 pick 6's, there has been a fumble "return" TD, and special teams has given up 2 TD's. That's 7 TD's there. Take them away, and the Chiefs are right in the middle of the package for total points given up.

THAT only accounts for a very small handful of the QB's 30 turnovers this season. Doesn't even consider how many times the offense turned the ball over inside of our own 50, 30, 20, or closer...

So sure, we could use upgrades over Lewis, Siler, TJ/Dorsey, and across from Flowers, and I hope we get them. They aren't necessary though, at least not all of them RIGHT NOW.

On offense, we need a QB, a deep threat, and upgrades/depth at TE, FB, RB and a line spot or two.

That doesn't mean that this team is devoid of talent. It has some really pieces though, which is a lot of talent for one team. Flowers, Berry, Houston, Hali, DJ, I like what I saw from a rookie Poe. Charles, Bowe, Albert. All players any team would love to have.

That isn't even including good to adequate players. The entire Oline, depth included is either good or adequate. Winston being one of my least favorite. Same goes for TE, and Breaston, DiMarco, Draughn, Gray. Also plenty of players on defense.

This team can make the playoffs next year EASY, if they pick the right QB and head coach, diagnose which positions that could be upgraded would payoff the most.

Deep threat WR, starting CB, DE's, would go a long way on this team.

Draft Geno, trader our 2nd and one of our 3rd's(comp pick) if that's what it takes to move back in order first and grab best deep threat WR(T. Williams if available in 20's). Best CB and 3-4 DEFENSE available in 3rd & 4th rounds.

[whoman69]

I would agree on only one of the original points. The Chiefs do have more talent than those other teams. The only thing that Pioli has done well is retain most of the talent he inherited. The players in general have not been coached up by our coaches. DJ is an exception. Houston is an exception.

Pioli has brought in only 2 impact players through the draft. Pioli is also responsible for bringing in the coaches, setting a dictatorial atmosphere and an inability to see that having Cassel as the only option was a huge mistake.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I would agree on only one of the original points. The Chiefs do have more talent than those other teams. The only thing that Pioli has done well is retain most of the talent he inherited. The players in general have not been coached up by our coaches. DJ is an exception. Houston is an exception.

Pioli has brought in only 2 impact players through the draft. Pioli is also responsible for bringing in the coaches, setting a dictatorial atmosphere and an inability to see that having Cassel as the only option was a huge mistake.

So we have more talent, similar QB play and similar coaching - yet haven't won more games.

Makes sense.

[DeezNutz]

Do you agree or disagree with my assessment of the following players:

Albert (if healthy) is a solid LT.
Bowe is a fringe #1 WR (true #1 WR are rare, just like true #1 pitchers are rare in MLB--not all teams have them.)
Hali is a solid OLB.
Houston is a solid OLB.
DJ is a solid ILB.
Flowers is a solid corner.
Charles is a fucking beast.

That's a pretty talented core, IMO, and those positions are pretty tough to fill. A competent GM could supplement this talent pretty quickly, IMO, but it all hinges on first getting the QB.

[aturnis]

How many points have been scored off of turnovers this season? I wouldn't know where to find a state like that.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Do you agree or disagree with my assessment of the following players:

Albert (if healthy) is a solid LT.
Bowe is a fringe #1 WR.
Hali is a solid OLB.
Houston is a solid OLB.
DJ is a solid ILB.
Flowers is a solid corner.

That's a pretty talented core, IMO, and those positions are pretty tough to fill. A competent GM could supplement this talent pretty quickly, IMO, but it all hinges on first getting the QB.

If you're talking to me...

Yes. I would agree with that assessment.

EDIT: This is the same core (minus Houston) we all thought would be easy to build around in 2009.

Yet four years later, we've won 23 games in four years.

Because we don't have much talent outside the core.

[BlackHelicopters]

Don't enjoy being lumped in with OAK, BUFF and CLE. Shitholes. Guess that makes the Chiefs shitty by association. Sad.

[BigMeatballDave]

With Peyton Manning on this team, it wins 10.

Or Rodgers, Brady, etc.

Add a solid coaching staff and it wins 12 or 13.

This years debacle is a direct result of 30 turnovers from 2 shitty QBs.

[DeezNutz]

If you're talking to me...

Yes. I would agree with that assessment.

Now - how would you compare that core to the "core" of Oakland, Buffalo, Cleveland, Miami and Jacksonville over the past 4 years?

Let's just take OAK. The only position I'd trade with them would be their DTs. Different scheme, of course, but they're stout along the line.

Cleveland is interesting. Better OT play, overall. Pretty close in terms of WR and RB play.

They also have a #1 CB.

In terms of age, they might be better situated than KC, but it's damn close.

[DeezNutz]

If you're talking to me...

Yes. I would agree with that assessment.

EDIT: This is the same core (minus Houston) we all thought would be easy to build around in 2009.

Yet four years later, we've won 23 games in four years.

Because we don't have much talent outside the core.

Yep. My first post in this thread:

We're in much the same position now as in '09. There is a talented core of players. Unfortunately, the majority of this core is now four years older because Pioli was truly terrible at his job.

[Hootie]

With Peyton Manning on this team, it wins 10.

Or Rodgers, Brady, etc.

Add a solid coaching staff and it wins 12 or 13.

This years debacle is a direct result of 30 turnovers from 2 shitty QBs.

And terribly soft, anti-aggressive defensive scheming

[OnTheWarpath15]

Don't enjoy being lumped in with OAK, BUFF and CLE. Shitholes. Guess that makes the Chiefs shitty by association. Sad.

That's the point.

People would rather make excuses for, or flat-out overvalue the talent level on this roster than admit that we really are as bad as tire fire organizations like Jacksonville, Oakland and Cleveland over the past four years.

[BlackHelicopters]

That's the point.

People would rather make excuses for, or flat-out overvalue the talent level on this roster than admit that we really are as bad as tire fire organizations like Jacksonville, Oakland and Cleveland over the past four years.

Quit insulting tire fires.

[OnTheWarpath15]

With Peyton Manning on this team, it wins 10.

Or Rodgers, Brady, etc.

Add a solid coaching staff and it wins 12 or 13.

This years debacle is a direct result of 30 turnovers from 2 shitty QBs.

So it's going to take one of the greatest QB's in the history of professional football to win 10 games with this roster in the weakest division in the NFL.

Case closed, Your Honor.

[BigMeatballDave]

With average QB play and fewer turnovers, there is 5 or 6 more wins this season.

[Hootie]

well thank God that didn't happen

I'll call this season a total success once Pioli/Crennel get canned, Cassel gets cut, and we draft Geno. Best season in a long, long, long, long, long time

[OnTheWarpath15]

With average QB play and fewer turnovers, there is 5 or 6 more wins this season.

And if my aunt had a cock and balls, she'd be my uncle.

[Hootie]

Pioli's best move?

Letting Orton walk and bringing in "competition" named Brady Quinn for Matt Cassel!

Thanks, Scott!!

[DeezNutz]

Pioli's best move?

Letting Orton walk and bringing in "competition" named Brady Quinn for Matt Cassel!

Thanks, Scott!!

Yep. We might look back on all of this and decide that Pioli was the biggest blessing in disguise if Geno lives up to his potential.

[BigMeatballDave]

So it's going to take one of the greatest QB's in the history of professional football to win 10 games with this roster in the weakest division in the NFL.

Case closed, Your Honor.

:rolleyes:

Denver will finish with 5 more wins than last season.

If it had not been for all fluke plays last year, they are probably a 4-12 team.

[BigMeatballDave]

well thank God that didn't happen

I'll call this season a total success once Pioli/Crennel get canned, Cassel gets cut, and we draft Geno. Best season in a long, long, long, long, long time

Agreed.

It's too bad this season didnt happen last year.

Such is life as a Chiefs fan.

[OnTheWarpath15]

:rolleyes:

Denver will finish with 5 more wins than last season.

If it had not been for all fluke plays last year, they are probably a 4-12 team.

Denver is also infinitely more talented than we are - people just refuse to admit it.

I'd trade every position group we have for theirs other than RB.

[O.city]

So with the narrative of "Pioli hasn't brought in any great players" I wanna ask, with who we have on board as our core, did he really need too?


Charles
Bowe
Albert
DJ
Hali
Houston
Flowers
Berry
Winston
Poe (who I'm higher on probably than most)
Moeaki
Breaston


Thats your core, with all pro type guys there. Exactly how many do you need?

I think we tend to downplay just how much the QB position and coaching have affected this team.

[O.city]

Lets go group by group

OL: Winston and Albert are bookends. They are great tackles and young. Hudson played alright as a new C early until he was hurt. Allen and Asamoah have flashed but also struggled.

This group is directly affected by QB play.

[BigMeatballDave]

Denver is also infinitely more talented than we are - people just refuse to admit it.

I'd trade every position group we have for theirs other than RB.Peyton clearly inflates the talent on that team.

Look no further than the Colts in 2010. 10-6 with him. 2-14 without.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Lets go group by group

OL: Winston and Albert are bookends. They are great tackles and young. Hudson played alright as a new C early until he was hurt. Allen and Asamoah have flashed but also struggled.

This group is directly affected by QB play.

I don't need to go group by group.

Denver has more talent than we do. Mainly because they've drafted way better than we have, and have done better in FA.

What position group of ours would you rather have than Denvers?

Running back.

I'll wait for the rest, though there really shouldn't be any if you're being honest.

[DeezNutz]

I don't need to go group by group.

Denver has more talent than we do. Mainly because they've drafted way better than we have, and have done better in FA.

What position group of ours would you rather have than Denvers?

Running back.

I'll wait for the rest, though there really shouldn't be any if you're being honest.

I agree about Denver.

What about my comments about OAK and CLE?

[BigMeatballDave]

I don't need to go group by group.

Denver has more talent than we do. Mainly because they've drafted way better than we have, and have done better in FA.

What position group of ours would you rather have than Denvers?

Running back.

I'll wait for the rest, though there really shouldn't be any if you're being honest.

It does not matter because that group isn't winning shit without an elite QB.

So, no. I do not care to trade if I don't have Peyton Manning or some other elite QB.

[Ceej]

What's the difference between a talented core of players and a group of talented players?

Just curious.

Is there a number?

Just trying to get everyone's interpretation of the two.

[DeezNutz]

What's the difference between a talented core of players and a group of talented players?

Just curious.

Is there a number?

Just trying to get everyone's interpretation of the two.

When I say "core" I mean talent at key positions, ones that, while not as important as QB, are essential to fielding a championship team.

[Ceej]

When I say "core" I mean talent at key positions, ones that, while not as important as QB, are essential to fielding a championship team.

Not being a smartass.

I honestly didn't know the difference between the two, or how to interpret either.

[Dartgod]

So with the narrative of "Pioli hasn't brought in any great players" I wanna ask, with who we have on board as our core, did he really need too?


Charles
Bowe
Albert
DJ
Hali
Houston
Flowers
Berry
Winston
Poe (who I'm higher on probably than most)
Moeaki
Breaston


Thats your core, with all pro type guys there. Exactly how many do you need?
:spock:

[Ceej]

Oakland is clearly better.

Mostly because Janikowski is better than Succop.

Field goals.

Fuck yeah!

[OnTheWarpath15]

I agree about Denver.

What about my comments about OAK and CLE?

I'd say pretty spot on.

This Denver conversation is just more proof about the mindset of our fanbase.

Denver won 8 games with Tim fucking Tebow as QB.

While we've been drafting guys like Tyson Jackson, Poe, Arenas, McCluster, Moeaki and signing guys like Breaston and Hillis...

...Denver has been drafting guys like Von Miller, Demaryius Thomas, Erik Decker, Dumervil, Franklin, Beadles and Wolfe and signing guys like Tracy Porter, Dan Koppen, Justin Bannan, Chris Harris, etc.

They've made good moves, while we've made poor moves. It shouldn't be a surprise that they are more talented than we are.

Manning is just icing on the cake.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

How many teams have an elite running game, number 1 reciever, 2 high end pass rushers, a number one corner, and an emerging super star safety?

This team beats playoff contending teams Pitt, Balt, Den, and Indy with even mediocre QB play.

The QB play really has been that bad the last 4 years that it just cannot be overcome. This is still a talented, young roster.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'd say pretty spot on.

This Denver conversation is just more proof about the mindset of our fanbase.

Denver won 8 games with Tim fucking Tebow as QB.

While we've been drafting guys like Tyson Jackson, Poe, Arenas, McCluster, Moeaki and signing guys like Breaston and Hillis...

...Denver has been drafting guys like Von Miller, Demaryius Thomas, Erik Decker, Dumervil, Franklin, Beadles and Wolfe and signing guys like Tracy Porter, Dan Koppen, Justin Bannan, Chris Harris, etc.

They've made good moves, while we've made poor moves. It shouldn't be a surprise that they are more talented than we are.

Manning is just icing on the cake.And they aren't winning shit without Manning.

Bannon? What has he done? He doesn't even have a sack. Jackson has better numbers LMAO

[OnTheWarpath15]

How many teams have an elite running game, number 1 reciever, 2 high end pass rushers, a number one corner, and an emerging super star safety?

This team beats playoff contending teams Pitt, Balt, Den, and Indy with even mediocre QB play.

The QB play really has been that bad the last 4 years that it just cannot be overcome.

The QB play hasn't been worse than in Cleveland or Jacksonville, yet they have as many wins in 4 years as we do.

[BigMeatballDave]

Please continue your donkey show in Knowmo's thread.

[Dartgod]

I'm not saying that we are more talented than Denver, but stick Cassel and Quinn on the Broncos instead of Manning and their "core" gets a lot smaller.

[BigMeatballDave]

The QB play hasn't been worse than in Cleveland or Jacksonville, yet they have as many wins in 4 years as we do.

No set of QBs have turned the ball over 30 times.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm not saying that we are more talented than Denver, but stick Cassel and Quinn on the Broncos instead of Manning and their "core" gets a lot smaller.

No doubt.

But they'd surely have more than 2 wins.

Again, they won the division AND A PLAYOFF GAME with Tim Tebow at QB.

Tim.

Tebow.

And that's before signing extra pieces like Koppen, Porter, etc.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No set of QBs have turned the ball over 30 times.

You're cherry picking one year out of 4.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Please continue your donkey show in Knowmo's thread.

Feel free to bury your head in the sand and expect a QB to solve all our problems in another thread?

[BigMeatballDave]

Weeden has played better than Quinn and Cassel.

[SAUTO]

Get us a qb and we will see who is right here
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Get us a qb and we will see who is right here
Posted via Mobile Device

Preferably a chocolate flavored one sporting the number 12.

[Chief Roundup]

This also has to be looked at from the other direction as well. Lets take it away from Denver to GB, NE, NO. Where are those teams with Cassel and the roller coaster of HC and OC staff that has been run through KC in the last 4 years?

[Chief Roundup]

You're cherry picking one year out of 4.

I would imagine that Cassel 27/7 year messes the averages up as well. Not to mention all the garbage stats that he has gotten when we are being blown out.

[Ceej]

While this overall roster may not be as talented as some people think a potential franchise quarterback (who lives up to the #1 overall pick) improves the overall roster drastically.

[Chief Roundup]

Also curious if of the probowl numbers for those teams. Are any of those teams sending 5 to the pro bowl?

[BigMeatballDave]

While this overall roster may not be as talented as some people think a potential franchise quarterback (who lives up to the #1 overall pick) improves the overall roster drastically.

No joke.

Look what RG3 and Luck have done for their teams.

[Chief Roundup]

While this overall roster may not be as talented as some people think a potential franchise quarterback (who lives up to the #1 overall pick) improves the overall roster drastically.

those aren't antlers either.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Get us a qb and we will see who is right here
Posted via Mobile Device

Feel free to take Dave's version of Manning.

10 wins.

Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

It's going to take a HOF QB to get this roster 10 wins?


Of course we need a QB. That's not the debate here.

We also need a lot of good players around that core of 6-7 guys. We have to draft well and sign FA's well.

Christ, someone in another thread mentioned how good 400 some-odd yards is for McCluster, considering who is throwing him the ball.

Nevermind that guys like Rod Streater have more receiving yards.

That Rob Housler - a TE with Kolb, Skelton and Lindley throwing to him - has more yardage than Dexter.

That's just ONE example of how people rationalize the lack of talent on this roster.

It's not all the QB's fault that guys like Dexter, Moeaki, Arenas, Jackson, Hillis, Breaston, Winston, Lewis, Routt, etc aren't that good.

Yet we continue to prop them up and ignore it, because no one wants to admit this team has a few superstars pushing 30 and not much behind them.

[BigMeatballDave]

Feel free to take Dave's version of Manning.

10 wins.

Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.


Hmmm. I seem to recall the last SB winner won 9...

[BigMeatballDave]

2008 Cards almost won it with 9 win...

[OnTheWarpath15]

2008 Cards almost won it with 9 win...

And New England lost it with 18 wins.

What's your point?

[BigMeatballDave]

And New England lost it with 18 wins.

What's your point?

10 wins.

Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

[Hootie]

I don't need to go group by group.

Denver has more talent than we do. Mainly because they've drafted way better than we have, and have done better in FA.

What position group of ours would you rather have than Denvers?

Running back.

I'll wait for the rest, though there really shouldn't be any if you're being honest.

Meh. I don't agree.

They are infinitely more talented than us at WR and QB. Defensively, I'd take Von over anybody but our LB group is just as good as theirs is. Flowers and Berry are considerably younger than Champ, so I'm going to take those two guys over their secondary.

Our DL is in disarray but we definitely have talent.

Offensive line? Meh Meh Meh...I can't judge a Peyton Manning offensive line. He makes his lines look WAY, WAY, WAY better than they really are...elite or not elite.

Let me put it this way.

You put John Fox and Peyton Manning in KC and Romeo Crennel and Matt Cassel in Denver...

...

I'm thinking KC 12-4
Denver 3-13

SO MAYBE Denver, outside of the QB position, has 1 more win worth of talent than KC.

[OnTheWarpath15]

You don't get to - or win - a Super Bowl with just a QB.

The problem is that this fanbase automatically undervalues players on other teams, while overvaluing our players.

You need a complete team - including a QB.

And even then, sometimes it's not enough.

Could Geno Smith come in next year and lead us to 8 or 9 wins?

Maybe.

But unless the new GM starts hitting on some draft picks and making some smart FA signings, 8-9 wins and the occasional one-and-done in the playoffs is the ceiling.

[Hootie]

The reason we are so terrible is simple:

We have terrible, terrible, WRETCHED QB play...and terrible coaching.

Good schemes make average players look great (sometimes). We have shit, shit, SHITTY schemes...Romeo is so soft and plays such a shitty defense it's disgusting. We show ZERO aggression. Bend don't break doesn't cut it in the passing NFL.

Would you rather put a ton of heat on the QB and risk an 80 yard quick TD here and there...or just let teams consistently pick up 3rd and 6 all game long because you're soft as shit and instead of an occasional quick hitter they go on 5 long scoring drives that kill the defense in the process?

We are a competent staff and QB away from being a good football team.

I've been very complimentary of Denver all season long and think they have AN ELITE DEFENSE with AN ELITE SCHEME...but I do not think they have more than 1 win worth of talent than us if you take Manning out of the equation (see 2011)...and outside of the WR position I don't see them overwhelming us on any other unit.

[FAX]

An excellent, albeit devastatingly depressing analysis, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

By all rights, however, I think we shouldn't count Dr. Evil's first year ... or, at least, we should weight it less heavily. That was, by any reasonable standard, a rebuild year for sure. The new regime inherited a sloppy, lazy, completely unmotivated gaggle of out-of-shape quitters. Although I despise Dr. Evil as much or more than anyone else on planet Earth, I'd give that to any new GM/HC group.

What is unforgivable, though, was mentioned by Mr. Rausch earlier today. It's entirely unacceptable that you are worse in year 4 of your "rebuild" than you were in year 1 ... and we are.

It goes without saying that the root problem is lack of talent. But I'd add that it's lack of talent at some of the most crucial positions. And, of course, if you don't have quality depth in the NFL, you don't have squat because there are always injuries.

Frankly, I've given up thinking about this too hard because, when I do, the reality hits me once more just how screwed we are. The hopelessness that permeates this organization is palpable and, given our current situation and the total failure to improve or even stabilize the situation, we have only Pioli to thank. So, here's to you, Dr. Evil. May you wallow in opossum urine all your days.

FAX

[OnTheWarpath15]

10 wins.

Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

You're making my point, dumbass.

You claimed adding a HOF QB to this team would result in 10 wins.

Who cares about 10 wins?

The goal is to win a championship.

It doesn't matter who we draft in April, he's not going to play to the level of a HOF QB.

Will he make the team better? Sure.

But until the new GM starts improving the roster around him, those 10 wins and an occasional playoff loss are going to be as good as it gets.

[BigMeatballDave]

You don't get to - or win - a Super Bowl with just a QB.

The problem is that this fanbase automatically undervalues players on other teams, while overvaluing our players.

You need a complete team - including a QB.

And even then, sometimes it's not enough.

Could Geno Smith come in next year and lead us to 8 or 9 wins?

Maybe.

But unless the new GM starts hitting on some draft picks and making some smart FA signings, 8-9 wins and the occasional one-and-done in the playoffs is the ceiling.Give us names of all this great talent on GB. Other than Rodgers and Mathews.

[htismaqe]

An excellent, albeit devastatingly depressing analysis, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

By all rights, however, I think we shouldn't count Dr. Evil's first year ... or, at least, we should weight it less heavily. That was, by any reasonable standard, a rebuild year for sure. The new regime inherited a sloppy, lazy, completely unmotivated gaggle of out-of-shape quitters. Although I despise Dr. Evil as much or more than anyone else on planet Earth, I'd give that to any new GM/HC group.

What is unforgivable, though, was mentioned by Mr. Rausch earlier today. It's entirely unacceptable that you are worse in year 4 of your "rebuild" than you were in year 1 ... and we are.

It goes without saying that the root problem is lack of talent. But I'd add that it's lack of talent at some of the most crucial positions. And, of course, if you don't have quality depth in the NFL, you don't have squat because there are always injuries.

Frankly, I've given up thinking about this too hard because, when I do, the reality hits me once more just how screwed we are. The hopelessness that permeates this organization is palpable and, given our current situation and the total failure to improve or even stabilize the situation, we have only Pioli to thank. So, here's to you, Dr. Evil. May you wallow in opossum urine all your days.

FAX

Not depressing at all. In 3 days, we'll be rid of him forever.

[Hootie]

You don't get to - or win - a Super Bowl with just a QB.

The problem is that this fanbase automatically undervalues players on other teams, while overvaluing our players.

You need a complete team - including a QB.

And even then, sometimes it's not enough.

Could Geno Smith come in next year and lead us to 8 or 9 wins?

Maybe.

But unless the new GM starts hitting on some draft picks and making some smart FA signings, 8-9 wins and the occasional one-and-done in the playoffs is the ceiling.

Well unfortunately until Peyton Manning retires we're going to be settling for fighting for the 5th and 6th seed every year so I doubt we have immediate playoff success REGARDLESS...

and this is the point I've been saying for YEARS in regard to the great Brady/Manning debate. YEARS. I'm glad to see people are starting to understand.

AND, again, we get grossly outcoached every game. Defense alone we have Johnson, Hali, Houston, Flowers and Berry with guys like Poe who have potential and guys like Arenas who are serviceable. You can't have an all-star at every position you need coaching to come up with schemes to put the 'average to system' players in position to succeed.

We do not have that luxury.

Denver has a QB that consistently sustains LONG drives and puts them in the lead so they can play to their defensive strengths (get after the passer)...we don't. Peyton Manning makes that solid defense with great playmakers ELITE and PETRIFYING.

We have Houston and Hali. If Peyton Manning were our QB he'd enable them to be ELITE and PETRIFYING.

I don't think you understand HOW MUCH Peyton Manning does for that team...offense and...and...ESPECIALLY defense.

[Hootie]

not to mention the fact Denver can take risks, or call aggressive defensive plays because you know what? What's the worst thing that happens? They give up a long TD and Peyton Manning gets the ball? Oh no!

We get down by 10+? Yeah. Ha ha. We're done.

[DeezNutz]

An excellent, albeit devastatingly depressing analysis, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

By all rights, however, I think we shouldn't count Dr. Evil's first year ... or, at least, we should weight it less heavily. That was, by any reasonable standard, a rebuild year for sure. The new regime inherited a sloppy, lazy, completely unmotivated gaggle of out-of-shape quitters. Although I despise Dr. Evil as much or more than anyone else on planet Earth, I'd give that to any new GM/HC group.

What is unforgivable, though, was mentioned by Mr. Rausch earlier today. It's entirely unacceptable that you are worse in year 4 of your "rebuild" than you were in year 1 ... and we are.

It goes without saying that the root problem is lack of talent. But I'd add that it's lack of talent at some of the most crucial positions. And, of course, if you don't have quality depth in the NFL, you don't have squat because there are always injuries.

Frankly, I've given up thinking about this too hard because, when I do, the reality hits me once more just how screwed we are. The hopelessness that permeates this organization is palpable and, given our current situation and the total failure to improve or even stabilize the situation, we have only Pioli to thank. So, here's to you, Dr. Evil. May you wallow in opossum urine all your days.

FAX

I adamantly disagree with any notion of a "rebuild" in the sense that a team cannot be reasonably successful while going through it. Thus, discounting or prorating our evaluation of Pioli in '09 in nonsensical in my view.

Our talent at key positions was pretty damn good. Still is, though it's largely the same guys. If Pioli were even reasonably good at his job, we could have been a consistent playoff team from '09 forward.

I don't care whom Clark hires as the next GM; the sonofabitch doesn't get an "evaluation year." Furthermore, "rebuilding" is rhetorical bullshit sold on fans to get them to continue to support financially a shit team. It's fluff and does nothing but absolve blame and buy time.

"Evaluation years," "Right 53s," "Processes," and "Rebuilding years" can be shoved right up the next GM's ass if he even dares utter these trite cliches.

[Hootie]

we were a blocked FG away from making the playoffs in a shit division with Matt Cassel, Tyler Palko and Kyle Orton at QB with Jackie Battle as our best RB and Sabby Piscatelli starting at safety.

Dreadful 2012. No doubt.

Fortunately, we have easy fixes.

We have to hit one two things to be competitive in 2013. Geno Smith + a competent coaching staff. Those two things alone can get us to 8 wins.

Then we need to hit on some free agents, maybe hit on ONE more draft pick...and maybe see ONE guy like Poe develop into a good starter.

We have FAR less rebuilding to do than the Colts did this year (even though I think that is the luckiest team we've seen in a long time).

[Ceej]

I'm also a firm believer that Indianapolis is a pretty lucky team this year.

Luck has been amazing.

I don't see their overall group as a talented core of players.

[FAX]

I adamantly disagree with any notion of a "rebuild" in the sense that a team cannot be reasonably successful while going through it. Thus, discounting or prorating our evaluation of Pioli in '09 in nonsensical in my view.

Our talent at key positions was pretty damn good. Still is, though it's largely the same guys. If Pioli were even reasonably good at his job, we could have been a consistent playoff team from '09 forward.

I don't care whom Clark hires as the next GM; the sonofabitch doesn't get an "evaluation year." Furthermore, "rebuilding" is rhetorical bullshit sold on fans to get them to continue to support financially a shit team. It's fluff and does nothing but absolve blame and buy time.

"Evaluation years," "Right 53s," "Processes," and "Rebuilding years" can be shoved right up the next GM's ass if he even dares utter these trite cliches.

ROFL

Okay.

What do you call it when you install entirely new defensive and offensive playbooks and schemes, reassign positional responsibilities to your "best" players, and introduce an entirely new leadership group into the mix?

I know ... let's call it "Gloobering"! That should work just fine.

FAX

[Hootie]

Luck has something like 7 game winning drives this year...

So yeah, that's amazing. Shows what kind of gamer he is.

BUT FLIP SIDE IT...they could very easily be 3-12. That team, IMO, takes a big step backwards next year...I think Luck puts it all together in year 3 though.

[DeezNutz]

ROFL

Okay.

What do you call it when you install entirely new defensive and offensive playbooks and schemes, reassign positional responsibilities to your "best" players, and introduce an entirely new leadership group into the mix?

I know ... let's call it "Gloobering"! That should work just fine.

FAX

Outside of QB, are the Chiefs more talented than the Colts? How are the Redskins possibly surviving during this difficult "rebuilding" process? Hell, what about the Seahawks, the least talked about good team in the NFL? That "rebuild" is a bitch.

Why in the world should the highest paid GM in the game get a mulligan, if one entire season can even be counted so lightly?

[Chief Roundup]

The problem is that this fanbase automatically undervalues players on other teams, while overvaluing our players.

The "fan base" might but not on here so much. On here any player for any other team is better than whomever the Chiefs have is the normal schtick around here.

Someone who is good with that PFF stuff could put all of our players or position groups against other teams and probably get a more accurate measure of where our "team" stands as far as talent goes.

[TEX]

I'm also a firm believer that Indianapolis is a pretty lucky team this year.

Luck has been amazing.

I don't see their overall group as a talented core of players.

Here's an obversation regarding the Colts - and this came from Gary Kubiak after the Texans played them - He said that they are deep in that when you take away the obvious stars - that most all the talent is the same level. They play a lot of thier roster each game (He said more than any team in the league) and the dropoff in talent when they sub is minimal. He said that it's a very good way to go through a rebuild in that teams can remain competitive with a GOOD QB at the helm. Interesting...

[OnTheWarpath15]

we were a blocked FG away from making the playoffs in a shit division with Matt Cassel, Tyler Palko and Kyle Orton at QB with Jackie Battle as our best RB and Sabby Piscatelli starting at safety.

Dreadful 2012. No doubt.

Fortunately, we have easy fixes.

We have to hit one two things to be competitive in 2013. Geno Smith + a competent coaching staff. Those two things alone can get us to 8 wins.

Then we need to hit on some free agents, maybe hit on ONE more draft pick...and maybe see ONE guy like Poe develop into a good starter.

We have FAR less rebuilding to do than the Colts did this year (even though I think that is the luckiest team we've seen in a long time).

We have easy fixes, yet didn't fix anything in FOUR YEARS.

[ChiefsCountry]

We have easy fixes, yet didn't fix anything in FOUR YEARS.

That is on the Fat Fuck in the GM office.

[Hammock Parties]

I disagree that we didn't fix anything.

The offensive line has been massively upgraded.

Winston, Asamoah and Hudson are all good players.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That is on the Fat Fuck in the GM office.

And it will be on the next guy as well.

As has been pointed out several times, the core of this team hasn't changed in four years - it's just gotten older.

We have all these easy fixes, yet the Executive of the Decade wasn't able to fix anything in four years.

A QB is part of the problem, but far from the entire problem.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm heading out to dinner, check in later.

[SAUTO]

You don't get to - or win - a Super Bowl with just a QB.

The problem is that this fanbase automatically undervalues players on other teams, while overvaluing our players.

You need a complete team - including a QB.

And even then, sometimes it's not enough.

Could Geno Smith come in next year and lead us to 8 or 9 wins?

Maybe.

But unless the new GM starts hitting on some draft picks and making some smart FA signings, 8-9 wins and the occasional one-and-done in the playoffs is the ceiling.

the opposite could be said about quite a few here too

[BigMeatballDave]

And it will be on the next guy as well.

As has been pointed out several times, the core of this team hasn't changed in four years - it's just gotten older.

We have all these easy fixes, yet the Executive of the Decade wasn't able to fix anything in four years.

A QB is part of the problem, but far from the entire problem.

Preaching to the choir.

[-King-]

And it will be on the next guy as well.

As has been pointed out several times, the core of this team hasn't changed in four years - it's just gotten older.

We have all these easy fixes, yet the Executive of the Decade wasn't able to fix anything in four years.

A QB is part of the problem, but far from the entire problem.

QB is at least 75% of the problem.

You guys preached for years about the difference a franchise QB could make and now that we're on the verge of getting one, you say that a QB won't make that big of a difference.

[-King-]

the opposite could be said about quite a few here too

THIS.

[RealSNR]

A league average team with a franchise QB can compete for a title. A league average team with Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn coached by Romeo Crennel can compete for a #1 pick.

Pretty much.

Don't really give a shit about how much or how little talent there is on the team.

Get a QB, THEN go bitch about how Kendrick Lewis isn't good enough.

[RealSNR]

And it will be on the next guy as well.

As has been pointed out several times, the core of this team hasn't changed in four years - it's just gotten older.

We have all these easy fixes, yet the Executive of the Decade wasn't able to fix anything in four years.

A QB is part of the problem, but far from the entire problem.

It's more than 20% of the problem. Or 30%. Or 50%.

It's around 70% of the problem I would say if you don't have a franchise QB in this era of the NFL. That would not have been the case in the 90s. It's the case now, however.

[chiefzilla1501]

Our running game is exceptional and our pass protection proved that behind Orton, they are fine. Our passing game improves behind a new QB and we need one more passing target (at least). And we need an offensive coordinator with an imagination.

Our defense, our pass rushers are outstanding, are ILBs are good enough, and Poe should hopefully continue to improve. Our secondary needs 1 or 2 pieces -- doesn't need to be pro bowlers, but improvements are necessary. Our DEs need to improve, but that's not a critical position.

So essentially you're talking about a franchise QB, #2 receiver, a coaching overhaul, 1 or 2 pieces in the secondary, and hopeful improvements on DE (but not going to kill us if not. A good front office can easily accomplish that in one offseason, given our draft position and cap space. Particularly since a franchise QB and coaching overhaul are almost certainties.

[SAUTO]

QB is at least 75% of the problem.

You guys preached for years about the difference a franchise QB could make and now that we're on the verge of getting one, you say that a QB won't make that big of a difference.

THIS.
funny how things change
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hammock Parties]

the opposite could be said about quite a few here too

Sorry, but that's BS.

Do you know how much crap homers on this site have spewed about things like:


Jon Baldwin vs Demaryius Thomas

Tony Moeaki vs ANY tight end drafted in recent memory.

Dexter McCluster vs Players Who Actually Make Plays

Brady Quinn vs Legit NFL QBs

Tyson Jackson vs Any Asshole With A Helmet

Stanford Routt vs Corners Who Aren't Burn Victims



There is precious little talent on this roster to "undervalue."

[SAUTO]

We have easy fixes, yet didn't fix anything in FOUR YEARS.

True on both counts.

Except the o line as long as we keep Albert.

It's all on the fail that is Pioli
Posted via Mobile Device

[SAUTO]

Sorry, but that's BS.

Do you know how much crap homers on this site have spewed about things like:


Jon Baldwin vs Demaryius Thomas

Tony Moeaki vs ANY tight end drafted in recent memory.

Dexter McCluster vs Players Who Actually Make Plays

Brady Quinn vs Legit NFL QBs

Tyson Jackson vs Any Asshole With A Helmet

Stanford Routt vs Corners Who Aren't Burn Victims



There is precious little talent on this roster to "undervalue." come on man. Seriously?

It goes both ways. Look around
Posted via Mobile Device

[Brock]

Sorry, but that's BS.

Do you know how much crap homers on this site have spewed about things like:


Jon Baldwin vs Demaryius Thomas

Tony Moeaki vs ANY tight end drafted in recent memory.

Dexter McCluster vs Players Who Actually Make Plays

Brady Quinn vs Legit NFL QBs

Tyson Jackson vs Any Asshole With A Helmet

Stanford Routt vs Corners Who Aren't Burn Victims



There is precious little talent on this roster to "undervalue."

Very little, tbh. That doesnt mean a qb wont make a huge difference.

[Hammock Parties]

So essentially you're talking about a franchise QB, #2 receiver, a coaching overhaul, 1 or 2 pieces in the secondary, and hopeful improvements on DE (but not going to kill us if not.

That's a huge fucking haul, dude.

We need 6 or 7 new starters.

QB
WR
LDE
RDE
ILB
CB
S

And we need massive improvement from current starters at:

LG
NT
TE

That's not an easy fix.

We need two offseasons, IMO, before we talk about serious playoff contention.

Next season, if Geno is drafted and plays at a solid level I think we can go 8-8 or so. No better.

The roster needs work.

[Hammock Parties]

come on man. Seriously?

It goes both ways. Look around
Posted via Mobile Device

Examples of undervalued players? Lay them on me.

[chiefzilla1501]

True on both counts.

Except the o line as long as we keep Albert.

It's all on the fail that is Pioli
Posted via Mobile Device

To Pioli's credit, he took a roster full of major liabilities at starting positions to a roster that's rounded out with "good enough" guys. He did a pretty good job of building a team around supporting cast members. So he deserves credit for that.

The problem is that good GMs build around playmakers at core positions and Pioli decided to lay up every chance he got. That's ridiculous for a GM paid the way he is to not do that for 4 years. So the good news is, the foundation is set -- good support players, great cap space. We just need a GM now who can put together a few great drafts and make some quality free agency moves. Not as far off as people think. We're in a much better situation than a lot of new GMs walk into.

[RealSNR]

Everytime somebody says, "No, the talent actually sucks on this team" you get to ask them what we need to replace.

Is it Bowe? No.
Is it Albert? No.
Is it our passrushers? No.
Is it our RB? No.
Is it our starting CB? No. (especially was not the case when Carr was still here)

We're talking about upgrades at WR2, TE, one or two spots in the back 8, and a defensive line that needs to be re-evaluated.

That's a list you won't find on any Super Bowl teams, but give me a fucking break if it's this insurmountable task that we will be lucky to get half completed. And let's not act like if Geno Smith and our new HC work out that anybody will give a flying fuck about those positions listed.

The QB masks about 70% of a teams problems if he's legit. So let's get the legit QB and worry about everything else at a later time.

[SAUTO]

Examples of undervalued players? Lay them on me.

Dude do we have to go through all the players on other teams people suck off around here?

I don't have time for the list tonight clay
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

QB is at least 75% of the problem.

You guys preached for years about the difference a franchise QB could make and now that we're on the verge of getting one, you say that a QB won't make that big of a difference.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that a franchise QB isn't going to make enough of a difference all by himself.

Some of you seem to think this is a championship-caliber roster just missing a franchise QB.

It's far from that, and 23 wins in 4 years - as many as Cleveland, Buffalo, Oakland, Miami and Jacksonville - who are also missing a QB and according to most don't have the talent we do.

Let's use Oakland again.

Their QB situation has been even worse than ours over the past 4 years.

Coaching has been abysmal. Ownership as well.

98% of this board would say we have a TON more talent than Oakland.

Why do they have more wins in the last 4 years?

Hint: Because we're not as talented a roster as some of you think.

[SAUTO]

Matt Cassel is the worst starting qb in the league was typed a billion times on the planet.

Now all these teams are worse off than us?
Posted via Mobile Device

[RealSNR]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that a franchise QB isn't going to make enough of a difference all by himself.

Some of you seem to think this is a championship-caliber roster just missing a franchise QB.

It's far from that, and 23 wins in 4 years - as many as Cleveland, Buffalo, Oakland, Miami and Jacksonville - who are also missing a QB and according to most don't have the talent we do.

Let's use Oakland again.

Their QB situation has been even worse than ours over the past 4 years.

Coaching has been abysmal. Ownership as well.

98% of this board would say we have a TON more talent than Oakland.

Why do they have more wins in the last 4 years?

Hint: Because we're not as talented a roster as some of you think.

If we get a GM or HC that knows their shit and is able to hit on one or two draft picks per year, the talent deficiency is not going to take long to make up at all.

There's work to be done, sure. The point is that if teams like the Colts can draft a QB and get some other good players in the draft/free agency to fill in gaps, why the fuck can't we?

Answer: Because we're the Chiefs and nothing ever goes right and we'll always be terrible boo hoo hoo

I'm tired of that fucking attitude. It's possible to be realistic and still optimistic for the future.

[OnTheWarpath15]

That's a huge fucking haul, dude.

We need 6 or 7 new starters.

QB
WR
LDE
RDE
ILB
CB
S

And we need massive improvement from current starters at:

LG
NT
TE

That's not an easy fix.

We need two offseasons, IMO, before we talk about serious playoff contention.

Next season, if Geno is drafted and plays at a solid level I think we can go 8-8 or so. No better.

The roster needs work.

And that's the key.

SERIOUS contention.

Too many people here are content with winning 8 or 9 games.

Jesus Christ himself at QB doesn't make this roster a Super Bowl champion - and that's all that matters.

Of course a franchise QB will make a huge difference. But until we start drafting better and signing solid FA's and not slapdicks, we're not going to become a consistent contender.

[O.city]

Geno and Cowher and this is a 10 win playoff team next year.

[OnTheWarpath15]

If we get a GM or HC that knows their shit and is able to hit on one or two draft picks per year, the talent deficiency is not going to take long to make up at all.

There's work to be done, sure. The point is that if teams like the Colts can draft a QB and get some other good players in the draft/free agency to fill in gaps, why the fuck can't we?

Answer: Because we're the Chiefs and nothing ever goes right and we'll always be terrible boo hoo hoo

I'm tired of that fucking attitude. It's possible to be realistic and still optimistic for the future.

Finally, some common sense.

It is going to take time.

Too many people think this roster as it stands is just missing a QB.

[O.city]

You come out of the next draft with a QB, WR, CB. Sign a free agent FS , grab some decent dlinmen and see what happens.

[DeezNutz]

Let's use Oakland again.

Their QB situation has been even worse than ours over the past 4 years.

Coaching has been abysmal. Ownership as well.

98% of this board would say we have a TON more talent than Oakland.

Why do they have more wins in the last 4 years?

Hint: Because we're not as talented a roster as some of you think.

KC is more talented than OAK. In fact, I think the Chiefs are quite a bit more talented. However, all positions are ancillary to the QB, and without the QB the other talent cannot fully come to the fore.

[O.city]

OK OTWP, throw out what players exactly we need to upgrade and what spots?

[Hammock Parties]

Geno and Cowher and this is a 10 win playoff team next year.

No.

We need to fix the defensive line and find a CB who isn't a burn magnet before the defense is legit.

We basically have no idea about this defense in real games vs real teams because they haven't been in the situation but once, and they gave up 30 points (2010 Ravens playoff game).

Does anyone think for a moment that if we were contending this year that Jalil Brown would not be a fucking liability in a playoff game?

[O.city]

Jalil has been playing better as of late, but he needs to be upgraded.


Take the dline. Have them 1 gap with Poe, Powe, Pitoatua, Bailey, draft pick 1, free agent 1.

[chiefzilla1501]

That's a huge ****ing haul, dude.

We need 6 or 7 new starters.

QB
WR
LDE
RDE
ILB
CB
S

And we need massive improvement from current starters at:

LG
NT
TE

That's not an easy fix.

We need two offseasons, IMO, before we talk about serious playoff contention.

Next season, if Geno is drafted and plays at a solid level I think we can go 8-8 or so. No better.

The roster needs work.

A good front office can tackle most of that list in one offseason given our draft position and cap space. That good offseason (assuming we fix the QB and get a top notch coaching stuff) puts us in the hunt in year 1. 1 or 2 more good offseasons puts us in a serious hunt.

It's not as bad as it looks. Like I said, it's a much better position than most GMs walk into.

[OnTheWarpath15]

KC is more talented than OAK. In fact, I think the Chiefs are quite a bit more talented. However, all positions are ancillary to the QB, and without the QB the other talent cannot fully come to the fore.

Oakland has been trotting out JaMarcus Russell, Jason Campbell, Kyle Boller and Carson Palmer over the past 4 years.

Their QB situation has been just as bad or worse. You say we have more talent.

2 fewer wins over 4 years.

[O.city]

Or what we could do at CB? Maybe flip a pick to someone for a starting caliber CB.


I'd sign DRC, or Grimes in free agency for cheap, spend some money on Byrd, or flip a pick to someone.

[O.city]

Oakland has been trotting out JaMarcus Russell, Jason Campbell, Kyle Boller and Carson Palmer over the past 4 years.

Their QB situation has been just as bad or worse. You say we have more talent.

2 fewer wins over 4 years.

Yet those four are better than Matt Cassel.

[Ceej]

Finally, some common sense.

It is going to take time.

Too many people think this roster as it stands is just missing a QB.

Re: this thread

I haven't seen but one person saying we are a QB away from serious contention (maybe o.city).

However, a lot of people are saying a potential franchise QB would vastly improve the overall talent on the roster.

That's the boat Im currently in.

[RealSNR]

Finally, some common sense.

It is going to take time.

Too many people think this roster as it stands is just missing a QB.

Hmm... you know, I guess I just didn't realize that we were basically saying the same thing.

Ah well.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Re: this thread

I haven't seen but one person saying we are a QB away from serious contention (maybe o.city).

However, a lot of people are saying a potential franchise QB would vastly improve the overall talent on the roster.

That's the boat Im currently in.

Where have you been for the past 18 months?

People have been saying it constantly.

[Ceej]

Where have you been for the past 18 months?

People have been saying it constantly.

Media center and fantasy planet. :)

I don't religiously post on the lounge to avoid people like the aforementioned.

[O.city]

Re: this thread

I haven't seen but one person saying we are a QB away from serious contention (maybe o.city).

However, a lot of people are saying a potential franchise QB would vastly improve the overall talent on the roster.

That's the boat Im currently in.

Serious contention? No.


Being a .500 team? I think it could.


There are some definite upgrades that need be made. But I also think the QB situation and coaching staff severly handicap this team.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yet those four are better than Matt Cassel.

No, they really aren't.

Amazing how people flip-flop. It wasn't that long ago that Cassel was a Pro Bowl QB that just needed more weapons.

[O.city]

No, they really aren't.

Amazing how people flip-flop. It wasn't that long ago that Cassel was a Pro Bowl QB that just needed more weapons.

Don't throw that at me. I've never once said that.

Cassel has never been a capable NFL QB

[OnTheWarpath15]

Don't throw that at me. I've never once said that.

Cassel has never been a capable NFL QB

Not at you specifically. Could apply to just about anyone here.

Just about.

[Ceej]

Not at you specifically. Could apply to just about anyone here.

Just about.

How was Applebees by the way?

[O.city]

To specify, all I'm saying is that we have the cornerstones in place.

Pass Rusher? Check
Star WR? Check
LT? Check

QB? Not so much.

If we hit on the QB, then we can start building farther along. But until we do that, it really doesn't matter either way.

[FAX]

Outside of QB, are the Chiefs more talented than the Colts? How are the Redskins possibly surviving during this difficult "rebuilding" process? Hell, what about the Seahawks, the least talked about good team in the NFL? That "rebuild" is a bitch.

Why in the world should the highest paid GM in the game get a mulligan, if one entire season can even be counted so lightly?

How should I know? I'm just a passerby in the football game of life.

But here's my best guess ...

When other franchise find themselves in the gloobering phase, they have the benefit of certain advantages the Chiefs simply do not possess. Namely, things like a more successful tradition or better coaching or stellar players at key positions (like say ... quarterback) or more recent experience in playing in and even winning playoff games.

As I see it, there are so many variables (schedule, fitting players into entirely new schemes or not, quality at key positions, or lack thereof, etc., etc.) that it's very difficult to isolate one particular gloober issue or (as the OP does) compare franchises in the way you wish to do, Mr. DeezNutz. We cannot magically snap our fingers and become the Redskins or the Seahawks or the Colts or anybody else.

I'll give you a couple of examples of what I mean ...

The Chiefs have been historically bad at things like developing players. Unless we draft a player who enters the league with franchise or near-franchise talent and a driving, personal desire to improve (say ... a Tony Gonzalez type) we rarely see them improve from "okay" to "great". We've had a few, but not many. Additionally, the Chiefs seem to suck at what some people call "complimentary football". We either have a good offense and a bad defense or vice versa. That means when we try and gloober (like those teams you mention) we are working from a fundamental, organizational, systemic disadvantage. It's the reason we are always the league's ugly bridesmaids. And until those fundamentals change, we'll always suck when it counts the most.

And perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure that other franchises (the good ones, I mean) maintain the inherent loser mentality that the Chiefs have cultivated for some 50 years. In social terms, those franchises have a "high bottom" whereas ours is apparently bottomless.

FAX

[Hootie]

I don't even know what OTWP is arguing anymore. Oh well.

[-King-]

I don't even know what OTWP is arguing anymore. Oh well.

KC players suck! Other teams players are Gods!

[bevischief]

Send in end the 400 pound men army to end this... JFC...

[SAUTO]

KC players suck! Other teams players are Gods!

This is never said around here.
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

How should I know? I'm just a passerby in the football game of life.

But here's my best guess ...

When other franchise find themselves in the gloobering phase, they have the benefit of certain advantages the Chiefs simply do not possess. Namely, things like a more successful tradition or better coaching or stellar players at key positions (like say ... quarterback) or more recent experience in playing in and even winning playoff games.

As I see it, there are so many variables (schedule, fitting players into entirely new schemes or not, quality at key positions, or lack thereof, etc., etc.) that it's very difficult to isolate one particular gloober issue or (as the OP does) compare franchises in the way you wish to do, Mr. DeezNutz. We cannot magically snap our fingers and become the Redskins or the Seahawks or the Colts or anybody else.

I'll give you a couple of examples of what I mean ...

The Chiefs have been historically bad at things like developing players. Unless we draft a player who enters the league with franchise or near-franchise talent and a driving, personal desire to improve (say ... a Tony Gonzalez type) we rarely see them improve from "okay" to "great". We've had a few, but not many. Additionally, the Chiefs seem to suck at what some people call "complimentary football". We either have a good offense and a bad defense or vice versa. That means when we try and gloober (like those teams you mention) we are working from a fundamental, organizational, systemic disadvantage. It's the reason we are always the league's ugly bridesmaids. And until those fundamentals change, we'll always suck when it counts the most.

And perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure that other franchises (the good ones, I mean) maintain the inherent loser mentality that the Chiefs have cultivated for some 50 years. In social terms, those franchises have a "high bottom" whereas ours is apparently bottomless.

FAX

Good post. I appreciate Mrs. FAX taking the time to write it.

Plagiarism or any 'ism aside, all of what I've bolded, at least to me, ties directly back to the GM. Now, I'm not suggesting that our new GM will be able to snap his fingers and make everything magically better. But I do expect tangible progress, even in year one.

As to history and culture, are we really at a disadvantage with respect to these qualities in comparison to the Seahawks and Colts? The latter of which should have been known at the Mannings, with an enormous frontal lobe on the side of the helmets.

[BigMeatballDave]

I don't even know what OTWP is arguing anymore. Oh well.

That he is smarter than us and is always right.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Dude do we have to go through all the players on other teams people suck off around here?

I don't have time for the list tonight clay
Posted via Mobile Device

Ryan Fitzpatrick ROFL

[Pasta Little Brioni]

How many teams have an elite running game, number 1 reciever, 2 high end pass rushers, an All Pro MLB, a number one corner, and an emerging super star safety?


I'm still waiting for this to be answered...

This is what a guy like Geno and new Head Coach would be walking into. Plus a damn solid O-line to boot.

[FAX]

I'm still waiting for this to be answered...

This is what a guy like Geno and new Head Coach would be walking into. Plus a damn solid O-line to boot.

I have no idea, but I think maybe the New York Giants might come close to having all that stuff.

FAX

[Coogs]

Originally Posted by PGM
How many teams have an elite running game, number 1 reciever, 2 high end pass rushers, an All Pro MLB, a number one corner, and an emerging super star safety?


I'm still waiting for this to be answered...

This is what a guy like Geno and new Head Coach would be walking into. Plus a damn solid O-line to boot.


Pretty close to the same damn thing Pioli walked into 4 years ago.

[SAUTO]

Pretty close to the same damn thing Pioli walked into 4 years ago.

Pioli fucking sucks.
Posted via Mobile Device

[-King-]

I have no idea, but I think maybe the New York Giants might come close to having all that stuff.

FAX

All they have is the pass rush and the receivers. They have no running game. Average LBs and TERRIBLE defensive backs.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Pretty close to the same damn thing Pioli walked into 4 years ago.

O-line much improved, Houston, and Berry. Shitty that's all, but that's not the point. I want to see all the teams in this league that supposedly have all these high level players at all these positions.

[SAUTO]

O-line much improved, Houston, and Berry. Shitty that's all, but that's not the point. I want to see all the teams in this league that supposedly have all these high level players at all these positions.

You just think they are high level.
Posted via Mobile Device

[bricks]

There is too much emphasis on talent in pro sports.

A team doesn't have to be loaded with talent to win.

As the saying goes, "best teams on paper don't always win."

I firmly believe that sports are ALL psychological.

Despite all the talent on the Chiefs, this team has never been mentally "fit" to complete.
That is more frustrating than anything.

*We only judge things based on what we can clearly see and so we base things off talent. The psychological aspect of sports is really hard to evaluate and assess as a fan but one can get some sort of an idea of where its at.

With this team, its ****ing atrocious. This team can't focus, isn't strategically smart or creative, and just doesn't have the right mindset. THATS THE PROBLEM!

I see it in a lot of games. Players commit the same mistakes over and over again by either committing costly penalties or turnovers at crucial moments in ball games. Why is that reoccurring? That is where one has to look at the mental aspect of things and it really comes down to a lack of disclipline, focus. The question is, do you attribute that to the players? Or the coaches? Who do you hold accountable for those type of miscues?

Another thing that pisses me off is seeing how these guys joke around on the sidelines or act like things aren't a big deal after they are getting killed in games. That sh*t shouldn't be happening. That is where I believe the players have the wrong mindset.


When your team is pulling off sh*t like that, you have to look beyond talent.

*Sorry OTWP58. Hope you don't think I'm trying to piss on your thread or anything. Just offerring my perspective

[Coogs]

O-line much improved, Houston, and Berry. Shitty that's all, but that's not the point. I want to see all the teams in this league that supposedly have all these high level players at all these positions.

Don't forget he lost a Carr. I know. I know. That's not your point.

[SAUTO]

Don't forget he lost a Carr. I know. I know. That's not your point.

Ok Pioli fucking sucks.
Posted via Mobile Device

[DeezNutz]

There is too much emphasis on talent in pro sports.

No "Right 53" stuff, please.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Don't forget he lost a Carr. I know. I know. That's not your point.

Shit man, if that POS had kept him...Add in 2 lock down corners and it's gonna be tough to find a team that meets the criteria. Fuck Pioli sucks ass.

[DeezNutz]

Lest we get too coy, it's true; Pioli really does suck shit.

[Coogs]

Ok Pioli fucking sucks.
Posted via Mobile Device

There. That's better. :thumb:

[SAUTO]

Just in case no one has mentioned it...


Pioli fucking sucks
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

Ryan Fitzpatrick ROFL

Since he was brought up...

How many games does this team win with Ryan Fitzpatrick at QB?

[keg in kc]

If he hadn't missed at QB this wouldn't be a 2-win team. If he hadn't retained Crennel this wouldn't be a 2-win team. The NFL is not about having a team full of stars. It's about building a team around a handful of stars. They have that handful. What they don't have is the central piece that each of the perennially best teams have. And on top of that they have a coach that's about as wrong for the team as humanly possible. They're a 2-win team because every fear that every one of us have ever had about Crennel as a HC and Cassel as a QB came to fruition in one brilliant cyclone of suck.

[BigMeatballDave]

Since he was brought up...

How many games does this team win with Ryan Fitzpatrick at QB?

5 or 6

[OnTheWarpath15]

5 or 6

So the same amount of wins he's led a less-talented Buffalo team to.

ROFL

[BigMeatballDave]

So the same amount of wins he's led a less-talented Buffalo team to.

ROFL

:facepalm:

[OnTheWarpath15]

Yeah, I'd use a facepalm if I said something as stupid as you did too.


According to damn near everyone on this board, we have a fuckton more talent than Buffalo, yes? I mean, we play these guys damn near every year, and everyone talks about how shitty they are - that is, before they curbstomp us.

So riddle me this, genius...

How is it that a QB with a better supporting cast could only equal the same 5-6 wins he's getting with an inferior supporting cast in a tougher division?

[crossbow]

Suppose the Chiefs signed Peyton Manning. He probably would have been benched in favor of Mr. Cassel until about game 8. This team is run by idiots.

Don't believe me? How long did it take them to figure out Lary was done and Jamaal was a rising star? Only most of the season. Even us stupid fans could
see it and were getting frustrated at them for it.

[BigMeatballDave]

Yeah, I'd use a facepalm if I said something as stupid as you did too.


According to damn near everyone on this board, we have a fuckton more talent than Buffalo, yes? I mean, we play these guys damn near every year, and everyone talks about how shitty they are - that is, before they curbstomp us.

So riddle me this, genius...

How is it that a QB with a better supporting cast could only equal the same 5-6 wins he's getting with an inferior supporting cast in a tougher division?

You keep changing your argument.

Fact is, the Chiefs would be much better with solid QB play and better coaching. That has been my argument this entire time.

[bevischief]

A asshole and loser.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah, I'd use a facepalm if I said something as stupid as you did too.


According to damn near everyone on this board, we have a ****ton more talent than Buffalo, yes? I mean, we play these guys damn near every year, and everyone talks about how shitty they are - that is, before they curbstomp us.

So riddle me this, genius...

How is it that a QB with a better supporting cast could only equal the same 5-6 wins he's getting with an inferior supporting cast in a tougher division?

Our team plays soft with no coaching or discipline. Romeo is worse than any coach the raiders have had in a while, something I knew before the season even started. As many coaches as the raiders have had, they haven't had a whole lot of pure disasters. The two seasons prior were on the qb and injuries exposing how bad our depth was, which is on pioli. The raiders have had injuries at rb, but that's easier to handle when your backup is Michael bush. Not as good when your backup is Jackie battle.

[Hootie]

he's just an angry fan

I don't really get it.

God forbid we think we have talent. I mean, a lot of "experts" who aren't Chiefs fans picked us to win the division...because of the talent we have "on paper"...

No idea why that's so offensive to him.

[Marcellus]

I dont have time to read this entire thread but I offer up exhibits A&B.

A: 2010 SF 49'ers sucked balls (6-10) in the worst division in football. 2011 New coach a few players and OT in the NFCCG.

B: Seattle Seahawks 2010 went 7-9 in worst division in football at least according to the CP 2010 NFCW rule. Seattle in 2013?


The worst division in football went to one of the best in 2 season. Well the Cards may be THE worst team in football but Seattle and 49'rs are 2 of the best.

The level of talent on both those teams was very questionable in 2010. Not so much now. SF was known for a good young defense but the offense was beyond abysml.

[chiefzilla1501]

I dont have time to read this entire thread but I offer up exhibits A&B.

A: 2010 SF 49'ers sucked balls (6-10) in the worst division in football. 2011 New coach a few players and OT in the NFCCG.

B: Seattle Seahawks 2010 went 7-9 in worst division in football at least according to the CP 2010 NFCW rule. Seattle in 2013?


The worst division in football went to one of the best in 2 season. Well the Cards may be THE worst team in football but Seattle and 49'rs are 2 of the best.

The level of talent on both those teams was very questionable in 2010. Not so much now. SF was known for a good young defense but the offense was beyond abysml.

Green bay and new Orleans. They dominate on offense even with battered offensive lines and fifth string receivers. Our talent on offense is better than these teams.

Our offense has better talent than San Fran. They succed because of perfect coaching of discipline and technique.

The pats offensive line gave up 50 sacks behind cassel. They give up about 20-30 behind Brady.

The colts went from a playoff team to a one win team to a playoff team again. Guess what the difference was in those years.

This offense is more than good enough to support a good oc and a legit qb. I don't care how we compare to bad teams. Our defense has shown enough promise to believe we are really a few players and a new scheme away from being good. We need a great offseason. But two decisions we are in prime position to make are to overhaul the coaching staff and bring in a franchise qb. That goes a very long way. Who cares if it takes 2 or 3 years. With a rookie qb, that's how long it will take for him to be ready anyway.

[The Bad Guy]

I don't think the Bills have shitty talent at all. Spiller is a stud, they have a nice interior line (tackles suck), Johnson is a good WR, defense has pieces in the front 4 and secondary.

It's about the QB and coaching, which they suck at too.

I don't know why it's such a reach to think the Chiefs have talent in places.

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't think the Bills have shitty talent at all. Spiller is a stud, they have a nice interior line (tackles suck), Johnson is a good WR, defense has pieces in the front 4 and secondary.

It's about the QB and coaching, which they suck at too.

I don't know why it's such a reach to think the Chiefs have talent in places.

Even before spiller, they had Fred Jackson and Marshall lynch. They've had a top notch running game for years.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

I dont have time to read this entire thread but I offer up exhibits A&B.

A: 2010 SF 49'ers sucked balls (6-10) in the worst division in football. 2011 New coach a few players and OT in the NFCCG.

B: Seattle Seahawks 2010 went 7-9 in worst division in football at least according to the CP 2010 NFCW rule. Seattle in 2013?


The worst division in football went to one of the best in 2 season. Well the Cards may be THE worst team in football but Seattle and 49'rs are 2 of the best.

The level of talent on both those teams was very questionable in 2010. Not so much now. SF was known for a good young defense but the offense was beyond abysml.

ROFL