Lesson Learned: Clark is Right to Land HC First

[Hoover]

I think it’s very wise of Clark Hunt to put a priority the selection of the next head coach and not the general manager. Hunt put a priority on selecting the GM in 2009 and he landed his man, but by the time Pioli was in place all of the top coaching candidates were gone forcing the Chiefs to reach on Todd Haley. When you miss out on the top head coaching talent, it impacts the quality of the entire coaching staff.

The Chiefs have talent, but without the right coach to focus that talent and lead the team, one doesn’t get the most out of the investment in a high profile GM. While many here believe the presence of Pioli deters high profile free agents, I would say the lack of a legitimate coach with substantial control is what drives them to other teams instead of the chiefs. Would you rather play for a coach who makes the decisions for the team, or a coach who get’s vetoed by an all-powerful GM?

I think teams like the Chargers who are going to focus on the GM search before looking at head coach replacements run the risk of missing out on the best coaches. A GM first strategy also adds an unneeded variable to the coach selection. Say we went out and grabbed a Ross or a dude from GB or SF. I’d be happy, but who are they going to get for a HC? Likely a coordinator they have ties to, which means a repeat of the Haley fiasco.

I love the fact that Clark is going to get his coach and then sort out the GM stuff. I’ve become a big advocate of Reid and Heckert. Herkert has a long time scouting background and Reid is a QB friendly, franchise type coach we have not had since Marty.

Clark is on the right track. Now get it done Mr. Hunt.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Myth: By the time Pioli was hired, all the good HC candidates were gone.

Fact: Pioli was hired on January 13th. Pioli waited three more weeks to hire Todd Haley on February 6th (IIRC)

[notorious]

Clark is going to handle GM duties. Get ready.

[Hoover]

The 2009 coaching class sucked in general, but getting your GM in place first limits your options, especially if you are wanting to land an established coach.

[FloridaMan88]

I have no problem with Clark focusing on the HC hire first, but why not fire Fat Scott immediately?

[Bane]

All that "talent" doesn't mean shit with the idiots in the front office.

[ArrowheadMagic]

Myth: By the time Pioli was hired, all the good HC candidates were gone.

Fact: Pioli was hired on January 13th. Pioli waited three more weeks to hire Todd Haley on February 6th (IIRC)

He didnt wait, he couldnt hire him until Arizona's season was over

[DeezNutz]

He didnt wait, he couldnt hire him until Arizona's season was over

Haley was never the top choice, and Hunt alluded to this yesterday.

[Ace Gunner]

Clark has done so well with the Chiefs -- He's going to find himself a coach and get it right!!111!111

pay no attn to Pioli though.

[ArrowheadMagic]

Haley was never the top choice, and Hunt alluded to this yesterday.

So maybe some truth to... "all the good choices were gone"?

[OnTheWarpath15]

So maybe some truth to... "all the good choices were gone"?

More like, "we spent three weeks getting turned down".

[cdcox]

Myth: By the time Pioli was hired, all the good HC candidates were gone.

Fact: Pioli was hired on January 13th. Pioli waited three more weeks to hire Todd Haley on February 6th (IIRC)

A good part of that was the Herm evaluation period enforced by Hunt, if you believe what was reported from the Chiefs.

[ChiefMojo]

I think what we found out from the very start is that Pioli has a very limited base of coaches he can choose from. The whole Patriot system is based off of working with those that know the system and you can trust (prefer past working relationships).

Dimittrof was from that same mold but spread his wings and did it his own way... it has worked. Pioli can't see once inch from his face when it comes to stuff that isn't New England.

[OnTheWarpath15]

A good part of that was the Herm evaluation period enforced by Hunt, if you believe what was reported from the Chiefs.

Looking back on the bullshit spewed from 1 Arrowhead Drive, why would anyone believe anything that was reported by the Chiefs?

[ArrowheadMagic]

More like, "we spent three weeks getting turned down".

Very likely, knowing what we know now.

[DeezNutz]

So maybe some truth to... "all the good choices were gone"?

Or just more evidence that Pioli never had a fucking clue about what he was doing.

[Easy 6]

I think what we found out from the very start is that Pioli has a very limited base of coaches he can choose from. The whole Patriot system is based off of working with those that know the system and you can trust (prefer past working relationships).

Dimittrof was from that same mold but spread his wings and did it his own way... it has worked. Pioli can't see once inch from his face when it comes to stuff that isn't New England.

BIG YEP

[Bugeater]

Looking back on the bullshit spewed from 1 Arrowhead Drive, why would anyone believe anything that was reported by the Chiefs?
Regardless of the reason, it never should've taken as long as it did to shitcan Herm.

[BullJunkandIron]

They might of just been using the wrong temp agency.

[FloridaMan88]

Regardless of the reason, it never should've taken as long as it did to shitcan Herm.

Just like it should not take this long to shit can Fat Scott (it has been close to 48 hours since the season ended... that is already too long).

There is no benefit to keeping Fat Scott around, even temporarily until the HC is hired.

[Bugeater]

Just like it should not take this long to shit can Fat Scott (it has been close to 48 hours since the season ended... that is already too long).

There is no benefit to keeping Fat Scott around, even temporarily until the HC is hired.
Agreed. Clark obviously has a hangup with firing people.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I think what we found out from the very start is that Pioli has a very limited base of coaches he can choose from. The whole Patriot system is based off of working with those that know the system and you can trust (prefer past working relationships).

Dimittrof was from that same mold but spread his wings and did it his own way... it has worked. Pioli can't see once inch from his face when it comes to stuff that isn't New England.

Here's the thing - by doing things this way, Clark is also limiting the candidate pool.

Not to hijack, but this conversation between DeezNutz and I fits perfect in this thread. Long, but worth the read, IMO. Would love some more input on it.


If it goes down this way, Clark is doing it the only way anyone wants to see it done.

Sweep Pioli under the rug never to be heard from again.

Just perfect.

There's really no other logical conclusion that one can draw in my view. You can't prohibit the highest-ranking employee to address the media one day and then ever go back to "normal." Once the line is crossed, one can never go back.

This is similar to the Cassel situation. Once he was benched, he was done; once Pioli was silenced, he was essentially fired.

My only concern is that he's painting himself into a corner.

By not firing Pioli outright, he creates three possible problems:


1.) Clark is forced to limit his HC search to guys who are capable of having control of personnel decisions.

This is a pretty small list to begin with, and you're already hearing rumblings from guys like Gruden, Cowher and Billick that they aren't interested in coming back. That pretty much leaves Andy Reid and Chip Kelly, who other teams are already fighting over, while we're wasting time with Dirk Koetter and a Rooney Rule candidate.


2.) Hiring a HC and not finding a quality GM.

For sake of conversation, lets say Clark hires Dirk Koetter. Who is the new GM? Guys like Ross, Gamble and Dorsey will either be long gone, or aren't going to be interested in a position in which they have no control over who the HC is. GM's expect to be able to hire a HC.


3.) Fuck me, but when Reid goes to Arizona or San Diego, and Kelly goes to Cleveland, and there's nothing left that satisfies the first option, and option two comes to fruition and Clark can't find a GM - what happens then?

We all know what happens then.



I know everyone is excited about Clark stepping out on a limb, and I am as well - but he could have stepped out on a thicker limb. I'm not seeing how throwing all your eggs in a Bill Cowher type basket is what is best for the organization.

I think it's option 1, and I don't believe there's much debate about this. Furthermore, I believe that Hunt is very confident about what the outcome will be in KC or he wouldn't make this type of move.

I don't believe for a moment that a true "search" in underway. Clark has been working on this change for some time, and he knows the endgame.

If he doesn't, if he made this bold announcement without near certain knowledge of who the next coach will be, Clark is one recklessly stupid individual.

I don't believe that Hunt is the riverboat gambler type, but we'll see.

So let's make a list:

It pretty much has to be either Cowher, Billick or Gruden - unless I'm forgetting someone.

If Clark knows the endgame, as you say, that eliminates guys like Andy Reid and Chip Kelly - they wouldn't be interviewing elsewhere.

And if Clark knows the endgame, why the charade? Why not hire the guy and get to work on the most important draft in the franchise's history?

There's been chatter about all of the above, but nothing has happened yet.

If a coach isn't in place by the end of next week, it's probably worth ratcheting up the concern level a few notches because Hunt might be in over his head.

Based on his words, he seems to be shooting for one of the big names that you list initially. I can't fathom that he's taking a wild shot, either, since men like Hunt are often conservative by nature.

I agree his words seem to indicate a Cowher-type hire.

So why wait?

And what happens when he can't talk Cowher, Billick or Gruden out of retirement?

If it's one of these three, Hunt knows the answer right now. If he doesn't, he's dumb as fuck.

At this point, lawyers would be drawing up papers; it's long past time to make a sale.

Who else could it be?

As you said, Clark would be foolish to take this approach and not know the end result.

That leaves guys like Kelly and Reid out - they aren't going to waste other organizations' time by interviewing if they already have some semblance of an agreement with Clark.

It just scares the shit out of me, because common sense says he's putting all his eggs in the Bill Cowher basket - and is going to be fucked if he's turned down.

[dallaschiefsfan]

This is the right approach because the way we were doing it before was ass-backwards. Pioli kept talking like the HC needed to be the face of the franchise, yet Pioli retained all the power and decision-making. What kind of HC are you going to field that has no authority but has to shoulder all the responsibility each week? It makes no sense from a leadership/management perspective.

He with most responsibility needs the most authority. If the HC is the face of the franchise and the key leader, he should be paid as such and be given the kind of authority that's equal to standing in front of the cameras/microphones every week.

[Ace Gunner]

Here's a thought; Pioli is protected by buttbuddy Hunt and they hire another Pioli crony HC, grab a QB to compete with Matty C and they all ride into 2013 together.

[OnTheWarpath15]

No input on Post #22?

Parker, Hootie, SNR...

Anyone?

[htismaqe]

No input on Post #22?

Parker, Hootie, SNR...

Anyone?

I don't know man. I just can't work up enough angst to actually care. After the last couple of days, I am not even anti-Cowher anymore.

Hell, he could hire MARTY and I would probably be fine with it.

My fandom has finally jumped the shark.

[htismaqe]

Here's a thought; Pioli is protected by buttbuddy Hunt and they hire another Pioli crony HC, grab a QB to compete with Matty C and they all ride into 2013 together.

Here's a thought; you're retarded.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I don't know man. I just can't work up enough angst to actually care. After the last couple of days, I am not even anti-Cowher anymore.

Hell, he could hire MARTY and I would probably be fine with it.

My fandom has finally jumped the shark.

Ouch.

[DeezNutz]

After the last couple of days, I am not even anti-Cowher anymore.


Of course not; you understand how silly it is to be OK with Billick and not Cowher. :Poke:

[FAX]

Just like it should not take this long to shit can Fat Scott (it has been close to 48 hours since the season ended... that is already too long).

There is no benefit to keeping Fat Scott around, even temporarily until the HC is hired.

Sometimes I stay up late worrying about the mentally handicapped.

Clark's strategy in this situation smacks of brilliance. Whether he came up with the idea or merely listened to advice from someone else, it's an extraordinarily smart move, Mr. Hugh Janus.

I've posted this basic idea before, but since nobody ever reads my posts, there's no reason not to repeat it here; Clark is engaging a great strategy.

Let's assume (and probably very correctly) that Dr. Evil has a generous early termination compensation clause in his deal. Let's also assume (equally correctly) that he won't want to just up and quit because he's an incompetent moron. Given those two factoiders, Clark says, "Okay, screw you and your GM position. I'll just hire a coach who can handle your personnel responsibilities and make all the other football decisions. Somebody else can take over the janitorial concerns. You sit by the door and keep your mouth shut or you're fired for cause." Meanwhile, Clark's attorneys try to work out some sort of mutually-agreeable compromise and, failing that, decide whether or not Clark has the liberty to fire him outright based on some other rationale ... such as being a total idiot.

As I said, it's brilliant. A classic case of making chicken salad out of a dodo.

FAX

[htismaqe]

Of course not; you understand how silly it is to be OK with Billick and not Cowher. :Poke:

I never said I was OK with Billick.

I said if I was forced to choose between eating cat shit or dog shit, I'd take Billick. :)

[OnTheWarpath15]

Of course not; you understand how silly it is to be OK with Billick and not Cowher. :Poke:

It's looking like we're going to have to be OK with one of them. Not a lot of other realistic options.

[stevieray]

...my feelings are tempered till I see significant change on the field.

they bring in a has been, good ol boy network coach, one big damn meh for me..

...they weren't even competitive this year.

Clark wants a better team for the fans? that's great...I want a Championship, and that STILL feels light years away.

[DeezNutz]

It's looking like we're going to have to be OK with one of them. Not a lot of other realistic options.

Yep. We're getting a retread. That much is certain.

[FAX]

...my feelings are tempered till I see signifcant change on the field.

they bring in a has been, good ol boy network coach, one big damn meh for me..

...they weren't even competitive this year.

Clark wants a better team for the fans? that's great...I want a Championship, and that STILL feels light years away.

It is light years away. No question about it.

Clark still gets a pass from me for hiring Dr. Evil. He took his shot and missed. No problem.

Now, he wants to dramatically alter the organizational/reporting structure of the Chiefs in order to get more involved. More owner involvement means more accountability ... it can mean nothing else. Basically, Clark has done a remarkable thing here ... don't like the way people are handling things? Change the rules.

As for his criteria for the new HC, he's stated it three times without deviation. Never once did he say "retread" or "college coach". I'm liking where Clark is going with this and feel good about his overall position and attitude.

I think he's a ton smarter than most people give him credit for.

FAX

[Chief Faithful]

There are multiple reasons that Clark is right to land the HC first.
1. As you stated get them early while they are available.
2. Getting them early gives them a chance to organize quickly to get the best coordinators, get a system in place and still have time to evaluate talent before free agency.
3. Having the HC report to the owner draws the owner into the operations and attracts the best coaching talent.
4. The system now belongs to the HC not the GM. This is the best recipe for establishing a long tenure and stability. This is the most critical need the Chiefs have as a coaching staff. No more executing the HC for the GM failures.
5. The GM needs to be after the talent the HC wants not what the GM wants. This puts the HC in the talent selection and acquisition process.
6. Having the HC involved in the draft process makes the GM more effective.
7. The GM is no longer king he is now a peer, which I believe the the most healthy arrangement for the whole team.

[Jayhawk Chief]

I have no problem with Clark focusing on the HC hire first, but why not fire Fat Scott immediately?

YES

[FAX]

Yep. We're getting a retread. That much is certain.

I don't think that's a given at all, Mr. DeezNutz.

Clark said he's looking for someone who's "been involved" in building a winning team. I've listened to (and read) all his interviews, he's chosen his words carefully and not deviated from the script. You can learn as much from what a CEO/Chairman "doesn't say" as you can from the things he does.

FAX

[stevieray]

It is light years away. No question about it.

Clark still gets a pass from me for hiring Dr. Evil. He took his shot and missed. No problem.

Now, he wants to dramatically alter the organizational/reporting structure of the Chiefs in order to get more involved. More owner involvement means more accountability ... it can mean nothing else. Basically, Clark has done a remarkable thing here ... don't like the way people are handling things? Change the rules.

As for his criteria for the new HC, he's stated it three times without deviation. Never once did he say "retread" or "college coach". I'm liking where Clark is going with this and feel good about his overall position and attitude.

I think he's a ton smarter than most people give him credit for.

FAX

yup, my wife and I were yaking about this last night..I like the approach...big difference when you report directly to the big dog for accountability..

I truly hope it pays dividends...one thing for sure...something has to give for the change we are looking for...maybe this is it...considering the hands off, loyalty approcah has produced SQUAT.

[FAX]

There are multiple reasons that Clark is right to land the HC first.
1. As you stated get them early while they are available.
2. Getting them early gives them a chance to organize quickly to get the best coordinators, get a system in place and still have time to evaluate talent before free agency.
3. Having the HC report to the owner draws the owner into the operations and attracts the best coaching talent.
4. The system now belongs to the HC not the GM. This is the best recipe for establishing a long tenure and stability. This is the most critical need the Chiefs have as a coaching staff. No more executing the HC for the GM failures.
5. The GM needs to be after the talent the HC wants not what the GM wants. This puts the HC in the talent selection and acquisition process.
6. Having the HC involved in the draft process makes the GM more effective.
7. The GM is no longer king he is now a peer, which I believe the the most healthy arrangement for the whole team.

The Yep People from Planet Yep just threw their underwear at the stage.

FAX

[Jayhawk Chief]

No reason to wait on firing General Mismanager Pioli.

There are multiple reasons that Clark is right to land the HC first.
1. As you stated get them early while they are available.
2. Getting them early gives them a chance to organize quickly to get the best coordinators, get a system in place and still have time to evaluate talent before free agency.
3. Having the HC report to the owner draws the owner into the operations and attracts the best coaching talent.
4. The system now belongs to the HC not the GM. This is the best recipe for establishing a long tenure and stability. This is the most critical need the Chiefs have as a coaching staff. No more executing the HC for the GM failures.
5. The GM needs to be after the talent the HC wants not what the GM wants. This puts the HC in the talent selection and acquisition process.
6. Having the HC involved in the draft process makes the GM more effective.
7. The GM is no longer king he is now a peer, which I believe the the most healthy arrangement for the whole team.

[FAX]

yup, my wife and I were yaking about this last night..I like the approach...big difference when you report directly to the big dog for accountability..

I truly hope it pays dividends...one thing for sure...something has to give for the change we are looking for...maybe this is it...considering the hands off, loyalty approcah has produced SQUAT.

That, I think, is the crucial point here ... and the one most Planeteers are missing. I don't know if Hank reported directly to Lamar, but if he didn't, the Chiefs have never, ever done this.

It's ballsy and gives people what they've bitched about for years ... more involvement from the owner.

Clark could have chosen from a myriad of alternative tactics but chose the one that, upon reflection, makes the most sense if fielding a winning football team (in spite of Dr. Evil) is your objective.

FAX

[FAX]

No reason to wait on firing General Mismanager Pioli.

I can think of three (3), Mr. Jayhawk Chief.

FAX

[stevieray]

That, I think, is the crucial point here ... and the one most Planeteers are missing. I don't know if Hank reported directly to Lamar, but if he didn't, the Chiefs have never, ever done this.

It's ballsy and gives people what they've bitched about for years ... more involvement from the owner.

Clark could have chosen from a myriad of alternative tactics but chose the one that, upon reflection, makes the most sense if fielding a winning football team (in spite of Dr. Evil) is your objective.

FAX


yep people from planet yep...ROFL

[dirk digler]

Here's the thing - by doing things this way, Clark is also limiting the candidate pool.

Not to hijack, but this conversation between DeezNutz and I fits perfect in this thread. Long, but worth the read, IMO. Would love some more input on it.

I don't believe so at least if you look how the Steelers do it. They didn't hire Mike Tomlin and give him full control, both GM and HC work hand in hand and report to the owner.

[stevieray]

btw FAX, heard we play the Titans this year....

FDE road trip....epic to roll into their stadium as the King.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I don't believe so at least if you look how the Steelers do it. They didn't hire Mike Tomlin and give him full control, both GM and HC work hand in hand and report to the owner.

Kevin Colbert had already been in Pittsburgh for close to a decade.

[Chief Faithful]

Sometimes I stay up late worrying about the mentally handicapped.

Clark's strategy in this situation smacks of brilliance. Whether he came up with the idea or merely listened to advice from someone else, it's an extraordinarily smart move, Mr. Hugh Janus.

I've posted this basic idea before, but since nobody ever reads my posts, there's no reason not to repeat it here; Clark is engaging a great strategy.

Let's assume (and probably very correctly) that Dr. Evil has a generous early termination compensation clause in his deal. Let's also assume (equally correctly) that he won't want to just up and quit because he's an incompetent moron. Given those two factoiders, Clark says, "Okay, screw you and your GM position. I'll just hire a coach who can handle your personnel responsibilities and make all the other football decisions. Somebody else can take over the janitorial concerns. You sit by the door and keep your mouth shut or you're fired for cause." Meanwhile, Clark's attorneys try to work out some sort of mutually-agreeable compromise and, failing that, decide whether or not Clark has the liberty to fire him outright based on some other rationale ... such as being a total idiot.

As I said, it's brilliant. A classic case of making chicken salad out of a dodo.

FAX

I'm in agreement and take this a step further this strategy maybe exactly what makes Pioli more effective. He has done well managing the cap and has a good system in place for talent scouting and evaluation. The problem is he does not know what the team needs because of the lack of coaching stability and poor internal talent evaluation. I think both of these problems are solved by this new strategy.

By making the coach equal to the GM and reporting to the owner this attracts better coaching talent. Brings stability to the organization. And most of all give the coach equal say as to what the team needs in the way of talent. For example, if Haley, as reported, did not like Cassel he could say to Pioli get me a new QB and it now becomes Pioli's job to get a new QB. Before Pioli just says its not the QB's fault it is yours and fires the HC. Coach now has more power and respect, which is healthy for the whole organization.

[FAX]

I don't believe so at least if you look how the Steelers do it. They didn't hire Mike Tomlin and give him full control, both GM and HC work hand in hand and report to the owner.

The notion that it severely limits the "talent pool" is almost (but not quite) ridiculous. The talent pool of excellent head coaches is always limited.

Not only that, but Clark has stated that preparations for the "search" have been underway for some time. I'm impressed with our young, studly, well groomed owner.

I say, give him more than 24 hours to find who he considers to be the right guy, for crying out loud.

FAX

[FAX]

btw FAX, heard we play the Titans this year....

FDE road trip....epic to roll into their stadium as the King.

We must get together if at all possible. The beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX said, "You know that guy?" ROFL

I think she has a crush on your cape and shades.

FAX

[stevieray]

We must get together if at all possible. The beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX said, "You know that guy?" ROFL

I think she has a crush on your cape and shades.

FAX

oh hell yes....:rockon:

prolly bring the wife and the new kid....

[Chief Faithful]

No reason to wait on firing General Mismanager Pioli.

I can think of one good reason. If the HC is in place first he gets involved in the process with the Hunt in selecting the new GM. In the mean time Pioli can keep things operating during the gap allowing Hunt to stay focused on the HC search.

What Hunt has done is fundamentally alter the culture of Arrowhead. Brilliant first move, Mr. Hunt. :clap:

[FAX]

I'm in agreement and take this a step further this strategy maybe exactly what makes Pioli more effective. He has done well managing the cap and has a good system in place for talent scouting and evaluation. The problem is he does not know what the team needs because of the lack of coaching stability and poor internal talent evaluation. I think both of these problems are solved by this new strategy.

By making the coach equal to the GM and reporting to the owner this attracts better coaching talent. Brings stability to the organization. And most of all give the coach equal say as to what the team needs in the way of talent. For example, if Haley, as reported, did not like Cassel he could say to Pioli get me a new QB and it now becomes Pioli's job to get a new QB. Before Pioli just says its not the QB's fault it is yours and fires the HC. Coach now has more power and respect, which is healthy for the whole organization.

I agree except for the first part about Pioli being somehow "effective". He's done well managing the cap for three reasons; 1) He's dealt with a crap load of rookie deals that were already in place and 2) He's signed guys who weren't crazy about testing FA, and 3) He's brought in absolute garbage as FA talent.

In other words, he's proven that he can not screw up an anvil ... which, when I think about it, is a little surprising in and of itself.

FAX

[tooge]

No input on Post #22?

Parker, Hootie, SNR...

Anyone?

I tend to agree with Deez. Clark seems like a very calculating and conservative businessman. I'm thinking he's got his man and now it's a matter of contractual bs and deciding what to do with Pioli. If not, we're in deep shit because that would indicate Clark is clueless.

[Mr. Laz]

Do you trust Clark to know what a head coach is supposed to be?

[OnTheWarpath15]

I tend to agree with Deez. Clark seems like a very calculating and conservative businessman. I'm thinking he's got his man and now it's a matter of contractual bs and deciding what to do with Pioli. If not, we're in deep shit because that would indicate Clark is clueless.

I tend agree as well. Or at least hope this is the case, because the alternative is fucked.

So using some good old fashioned common sense, Clark has pretty much put his eggs in the Bill Cowher, Brian Billick or Jon Gruden basket, yes?

[Chief Faithful]

I agree except for the first part about Pioli being somehow "effective". He's done well managing the cap for three reasons; 1) He's dealt with a crap load of rookie deals that were already in place and 2) He's signed guys who weren't crazy about testing FA, and 3) He's brought in absolute garbage as FA talent.

In other words, he's proven that he can not screw up an anvil ... which, when I think about it, is a little surprising in and of itself.

FAX

Pioli brought in the same talent evaluation and management system used in New England and Atlanta, which is a great system. The thing that has failed is Pioli has been responsible for determining the team needs. Let Pioli work the scouting system and let the HC determine what the team needs and this could work just as well as it does in New England and Atlanta.

[dirk digler]

Kevin Colbert had already been in Pittsburgh for close to a decade.

And Bill Cowher was in place before he was

[Chiefaholic]

No reason to wait on firing General Mismanager Pioli.

How do you know? I don't think Pioli will be retained. However, there are multiple financial reasons Pioli is temporarily holding the position. I can all but guarantee Hunts lawyers are looking over Pioli's contract right now looking for an out clause.

[OnTheWarpath15]

And Bill Cowher was in place before he was

You're missing the point.

You're using Pittsburgh as an example, yet they've never had the HC and GM position open at the same time.

[htismaqe]

Kevin Colbert had already been in Pittsburgh for close to a decade.

Pioli has been here for 4 years. :evil:

[FAX]

Pioli brought in the same talent evaluation and management system used in New England and Atlanta, which is a great system. The thing that has failed is Pioli has been responsible for determining the team needs. Let Pioli work the scouting system and let the HC determine what the team needs and this could work just as well as it does in New England and Atlanta.

Hmmm ... I must be operating under a set of inaccurate assumptions, Mr. Chief Faithful. It is and has been my understanding that Dr. Evil himself has made the personnel and drafting decisions and that our "scouting department" is primarily responsible for number-crunching only.

If true, what kind of system is that? That's no "system". I don't even know what that is ... a feudal system, maybe.

I fear that any efforts to identify redeeming qualities in Dr. Evil are wasted on me, Mr. Chief Faithful. I cannot force myself to even be reasonable about it.

FAX

[htismaqe]

Do you trust Clark to know what a head coach is supposed to be?

Not really, but I don't have any control over it either.

[htismaqe]

You're missing the point.

You're using Pittsburgh as an example, yet they've never had the HC and GM position open at the same time.

Technically, KC doesn't either.

EDIT: in all seriousness, this probably the new status quo. Coaches and GMs won't be joined at the hip anymore so moves can be made with one and completely not affect the other.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Pioli has been here for 4 years. :evil:

And again, it's ridiculous to use the Steelers as an example for this "model" when they've never had to fill both positions at the same time.

Sorry if I'm missing some sarcasm, my meter got splashed with scotch last night.

[Jobomb]

I think finding a coach, then a GM who has a working relationship with the coach, is the better play, if you find a good coach.

[Chris Meck]

I don't think that's a given at all, Mr. DeezNutz.

Clark said he's looking for someone who's "been involved" in building a winning team. I've listened to (and read) all his interviews, he's chosen his words carefully and not deviated from the script. You can learn as much from what a CEO/Chairman "doesn't say" as you can from the things he does.

FAX

In addition to your Jon Grudens and your Bill Cowhers, this would also be a group that would include Chip Kelly and Jay Gruden, who has head coached UFL championship teams. So yeah, I agree.

[ChiefsFan04]

Keep Pioli but assign him to work concessions next year.

[htismaqe]

And again, it's ridiculous to use the Steelers as an example for this "model" when they've never had to fill both positions at the same time.

Sorry if I'm missing some sarcasm, my meter got splashed with scotch last night.

I drank 4 bottles of champagne.

I would have rather had the scotch at this point...

[OnTheWarpath15]

I drank 4 bottles of champagne.

I would have rather had the scotch at this point...

Christ.

Champagne is a brutal hangover for me. I steer clear at all costs.

[tooge]

I tend agree as well. Or at least hope this is the case, because the alternative is ****ed.

So using some good old fashioned common sense, Clark has pretty much put his eggs in the Bill Cowher, Brian Billick or Jon Gruden basket, yes?

That's what I think, yes.

[htismaqe]

Christ.

Champagne is a brutal hangover for me. I steer clear at all costs.

It's a brutal hangover for anybody. I feel like somebody repeatedly punched me in the gut...

With my forehead...

[Chiefaholic]

Do you trust Clark to know what a head coach is supposed to be?

Do you think Clark is just "winging it"? Or do you feel there's a probability that Clark has been doing his homework for quite a while now? You know as well as I do that Hunt has talked to multiple sources with a legit NFL background. The best option at HC that wants the job will be given the power that he chooses. Depending on which HC is hired, determines which GM will run the team.

Pioli is a stubborn jackass who is a power hungry whore. No way in hell does Scotty play well with the likes of a Bill Cower or Andy Reid.

[stevieray]

It's a brutal hangover for anybody. I feel like somebody repeatedly punched me in the gut...

With my forehead...

add Orange Juice

[dirk digler]

You're missing the point.

You're using Pittsburgh as an example, yet they've never had the HC and GM position open at the same time.

I am using them as example because that is supposedly the team Clark wants to emulate.

I can understand why he is picking the HC first because they are in demand more since 9 teams fired their head coach.

[htismaqe]

add Orange Juice

Too late now... :banghead:

[Chief Faithful]

Hmmm ... I must be operating under a set of inaccurate assumptions, Mr. Chief Faithful. It is and has been my understanding that Dr. Evil himself has made the personnel and drafting decisions and that our "scouting department" is primarily responsible for number-crunching only.

If true, what kind of system is that? That's no "system". I don't even know what that is ... a feudal system, maybe.

I fear that any efforts to identify redeeming qualities in Dr. Evil are wasted on me, Mr. Chief Faithful. I cannot force myself to even be reasonable about it.

FAX

Read the book War Room if you are interested in the scouting system used by the Patriots, Falcons and Chiefs. It is a great system the problem in KC is the Al Davis type dysfunction not the system. Get a HC with a strong personality who knows what is needed on the field reporting to the owner and that dysfunction will end.

Don't misread me, the NFL is a results business and Pioli has failed with the football operations. Too much turn-over in the coaching staff, lack of team personality and the wrong 53 on the field. As a team administrator he has been successful.

Maybe Pioli has failed because he has been asked to do too much. Let Pioli or the new GM run the scouting system and administrate the cap and let the HC run the football operations. I believe if the Chiefs find a strong personality for HC that knows what is needed on the field then maybe Pioli could excel in the same role he filled in New England. Jay or Jon Gruden, Cowher, Saban, and Billick all have that strong personality the Chiefs need. I don't know much about Kelly or Shanahan, but they sound good.

Just my opinion, all of this, but I strongly believe what Hunt has done so far has been brilliant and a good sign of things to come.

[Marcellus]

I think I have this figured out-

CP- I am tired of KC emulating other teams and trying to do it the Steeler way the Patriot way etc.... I want a KC WAY.

Clark - I am changing the structure and the GM and HC will report to me I will fnd a coach and build from there.

CP- That will never work look at Pittsburgh and NE etc...you dont build a team that way.

Sound about right? Seems like it.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I think I have this figured out-

CP- I am tired of KC emulating other teams and trying to do it the Steeler way the Patriot way etc.... I want a KC WAY.

Clark - I am changing the structure and the GM and HC will report to me I will fnd a coach and build form there.

CP- That will never work look at Pittsburgh and NE etc...you dont build a team that way.

Sound about right? Seems like it.

I haven't seen anyone say it won't work.

I can only speak for myself when I say this "model" really shrinks the candidate pool - see post #22 for example.

I also find it comical that this place has spent the last 2 months pining for guys like Gamble, Ross and Dorsey - but now that common sense says that's not happening, everyone is cool with a retread.

As pointed out - you would have to think that Clark already h as his guy, otherwise he's taking an enormous risk.

I'm betting Bill Cowher and Omar Khan will be announced once Clark's done fucking around with this Pioli nonsense.

[Tombstone RJ]

I think it’s very wise of Clark Hunt to put a priority the selection of the next head coach and not the general manager. Hunt put a priority on selecting the GM in 2009 and he landed his man, but by the time Pioli was in place all of the top coaching candidates were gone forcing the Chiefs to reach on Todd Haley. When you miss out on the top head coaching talent, it impacts the quality of the entire coaching staff.

The Chiefs have talent, but without the right coach to focus that talent and lead the team, one doesn’t get the most out of the investment in a high profile GM. While many here believe the presence of Pioli deters high profile free agents, I would say the lack of a legitimate coach with substantial control is what drives them to other teams instead of the chiefs. Would you rather play for a coach who makes the decisions for the team, or a coach who get’s vetoed by an all-powerful GM?

I think teams like the Chargers who are going to focus on the GM search before looking at head coach replacements run the risk of missing out on the best coaches. A GM first strategy also adds an unneeded variable to the coach selection. Say we went out and grabbed a Ross or a dude from GB or SF. I’d be happy, but who are they going to get for a HC? Likely a coordinator they have ties to, which means a repeat of the Haley fiasco.

I love the fact that Clark is going to get his coach and then sort out the GM stuff. I’ve become a big advocate of Reid and Heckert. Herkert has a long time scouting background and Reid is a QB friendly, franchise type coach we have not had since Marty.

Clark is on the right track. Now get it done Mr. Hunt.

yes and no. The teams who are in the playoffs (like the Broncos) have coaches that will be HC candidates. Those coaches are not going to interview until their season is over. So getting a GM lined out first is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Hammock Parties]

I drank 4 bottles of champagne.

I would have rather had the scotch at this point...

ROFL

Didn't figure you for the type.

[htismaqe]

I haven't seen anyone say it won't work.

I can only speak for myself when I say this "model" really shrinks the candidate pool - see post #22 for example.

I also find it comical that this place has spent the last 2 months pining for guys like Gamble, Ross and Dorsey - but now that common sense says that's not happening, everyone is cool with a retread.

As pointed out - you would have to think that Clark already h as his guy, otherwise he's taking an enormous risk.

I'm betting Bill Cowher and Omar Khan will be announced once Clark's done ****ing around with this Pioli nonsense.

I'm inclined to think its not nonsense, it's probably some kind of legal issue.

[htismaqe]

ROFL

Didn't figure you for the type.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I'm inclined to think its not nonsense, it's probably some kind of legal issue.

I agree, just wondering why Clark wasn't working on this months ago. this should have been wrapped up by the end of the season, IMO.

[Marcellus]

I haven't seen anyone say it won't work.

I can only speak for myself when I say this "model" really shrinks the candidate pool - see post #22 for example.

I also find it comical that this place has spent the last 2 months pining for guys like Gamble, Ross and Dorsey - but now that common sense says that's not happening, everyone is cool with a retread.

I think Clark is planning on taking his shot at being a GM coupled with a strong coach.

If he hires the right coach, no reason it wont work, big IF, I know.

Pioli was neutered because Clark figures with the right HC he can make Pioli powerless for a year, be the GM in the meantime and decide to bring in another guy next year if he sees the need. Or not if things go well.

Outside of the draft and picking a HC what does a GM do anyway? Clark is going to pick a coach with personnel background. They Have Mark Donavon to run the business side already.

Clark gets a coach he trusts to run this draft and there is nothing for a GM to do short term anyway.

[whoman69]

Myth: By the time Pioli was hired, all the good HC candidates were gone.

Fact: Pioli was hired on January 13th. Pioli waited three more weeks to hire Todd Haley on February 6th (IIRC)

Pioli was given a mandate by Hunt to consider the job status of Herm Edwards. If he did that over a weekend it wouldn't have worn well with his new boss.

I'm not going to give Hunt kudos for hamstringing the organization then and won't do it now. Any coach that comes in here is going to want to know if the deal comes along with Pioli. It shows Hunt does not want to make the big decisions for the organization. He is going to take the safe move every time, the one that allows him to make the least input. Hunt is only interested in counting the money that comes in. If you'll notice he doesn't say he is considering Pioli's status for the good of the organization, but instead what is in the best interests of his family.

[Marcellus]

I agree, just wondering why Clark wasn't working on this months ago. this should have been wrapped up by the end of the season, IMO.

If its the legal issues with the lawsuits by former employees its not as simple as just wrapping it up. He has to be concerned Pioli wont just make it a Hunt issue and throw him under the bus. Once Pioli is no longer employed by Clark Pioli has no reason not to turn on him.

Tin foil hat shit I know.

[Chief77]

It stinks that Pioli hasn't been axed, but I am really excited to see what Clark does. This team needs a smart and strong willed headcoach. Gruden,Cowher,Ried would all be big names. I have a gut feeling that Reid is a strong possibilty. I think he feels like he has lots to prove, and that first pick might real inticing to him. Getting a good DC would be vital. Let Reid build an exciting offense around the new rookie.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I think Clark is planning on taking his shot at being a GM coupled with a strong coach.

If he hires the right coach, no reason it wont work, big IF, I know.

Pioli was neutered because Clark figures with the right HC he can make Pioli powerless for a year, be the GM in the meantime and decide to bring in another guy next year if he sees the need. Ot not if things go well.

Outside of the draft and picking a HC what does a GM do anyway? Clark is going to pick a coach with personnel background. They Have Mark Donavon to run the business side already.

Clark gets a coach he trusts to run this draft and there is nothing for a GM to do short term anyway.

If Clark's plan is to "neuter" Pioli and keep him in the building, he'll lose this fanbase regardless of who he hires.

And Clark has no business in a Jerry Jones/Snyder role.

[htismaqe]

I agree, just wondering why Clark wasn't working on this months ago. this should have been wrapped up by the end of the season, IMO.

Well, the team is currently being sued by former employees that allege Pioli fired them due to their age...

[OnTheWarpath15]

Pioli was given a mandate by Hunt to consider the job status of Herm Edwards.

No, he wasn't - and as DeezNutz pointed out, this was implied yesterday in Clark's comments.

[SAUTO]

I agree, just wondering why Clark wasn't working on this months ago. this should have been wrapped up by the end of the season, IMO.
How do you know how long they have been working on it?
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

Well, the team is currently being sued by former employees that allege Pioli fired them due to their age...

So what's going to change with that in the next 2 weeks?

That's not a legal issue that's going away period, certainly not anytime soon - are we going to wait to hire someone until that gets wrapped up?

[htismaqe]

So what's going to change with that in the next 2 weeks?

That's not a legal issue that's going away period, certainly not anytime soon - are we going to wait to hire someone until that gets wrapped up?

I have no idea. I just threw that out there because I think the situation is a lot more complicated than we think.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I have no idea. I just threw that out there because I think the situation is a lot more complicated than we think.

I'm sure it is.

All the more reason why I'm concerned.

Our best hope at this point is that Clark already has a deal with someone.

[Marcellus]

So what's going to change with that in the next 2 weeks?

That's not a legal issue that's going away period, certainly not anytime soon - are we going to wait to hire someone until that gets wrapped up?

My guess would be legal language in the buy out regarding the law suit. I am not an attorney but I know this, we have several employees listed as witnesses in a law suit ( a ridiculous one) and we just had one lose their job over a UA issue. There is concern their statement will change now that they are no longer employed by the company and may want to try to screw us out of spite.

Personally I dont think there is much risk, other disagree.

Once again tin foil hat shit but who knows.

[DaWolf]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Pioli is a contingency plan now for Hunt. He's going to try and land a big fish, but there is a strong likelihood that one of those guys won't bite. If that is the case, he has to move to plan B, which means hiring a lesser known guy who won't have the juice to run his own show, and therefore keep Pioli around. Plan B would still mean Hunt hiring a guy he is comfortable with rather than one that Pioli recommends, but it probably also means that it would have to be someone who could mesh with Pioli. Plan B also would suck...

[SAUTO]

I'm sure it is.

All the more reason why I'm concerned.

Our best hope at this point is that Clark already has a deal with someone. why?

Just because Pioli is still employed he is obviously at this point not making decisions, hell he isn't even allowed to talk.

I'm sure that whatever coach or GM candidates Clark interviews over the course of this will be told exactly what is going on behind closed doors and let know exactly what the situation going forward is going to be.

It's just that he's not telling us everything
And that's ok at this point with me...
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

why?

Just because Pioli is still employed he is obviously at this point not making decisions, hell he isn't even allowed to talk.

I'm sure that whatever coach or GM candidates Clark interviews over the course of this will be told exactly what is going on behind closed doors and let know exactly what the situation going forward is going to be.

It's just that he's not telling us everything
And that's ok at this point with me...
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli making decisions isn't my point.

Read post 22.

[SAUTO]

Pioli making decisions isn't my point.

Read post 22.

I've read it. I don't think that Pioli receiving paychecks is going to stop Clark from hiring a coach or a GM to be our GM. There is something else that has kept him employed by the chiefs and it's not his football acumen.

It has to be about the lawsuits.

The new GM and coach will be told exactly what is going on I would think.

AT THIS POINT I think you are being a little chicken little ish.

we will have to see how out plays out
Posted via Mobile Device

[OnTheWarpath15]

I've read it. I don't think that Pioli receiving paychecks is going to stop Clark from hiring a coach or a GM to be our GM. There is something else that has kept him employed by the chiefs and it's not his football acumen.

It has to be about the lawsuits.

The new GM and coach will be told exactly what is going on I would think.

AT THIS POINT I think you are being a little chicken little ish.

we will have to see how out plays out
Posted via Mobile Device

Who said anything about it STOPPING Clark?

I'm saying he's limiting his options.

1.) Clark is forced to limit his HC search to guys who are capable of having control of personnel decisions.

This is a pretty small list to begin with, and you're already hearing rumblings from guys like Gruden, Cowher and Billick that they aren't interested in coming back. That pretty much leaves Andy Reid and Chip Kelly, who other teams are already fighting over, while we're wasting time with Dirk Koetter and a Rooney Rule candidate.


2.) Hiring a HC and not finding a quality GM.

For sake of conversation, lets say Clark hires Dirk Koetter. Who is the new GM? Guys like Ross, Gamble and Dorsey will either be long gone, or aren't going to be interested in a position in which they have no control over who the HC is. GM's expect to be able to hire a HC.


3.) Fuck me, but when Reid goes to Arizona or San Diego, and Kelly goes to Cleveland, and there's nothing left that satisfies the first option, and option two comes to fruition and Clark can't find a GM - what happens then?

We all know what happens then.

[SAUTO]

I'm saying it's not going to stop him from hiring a GM even if Pioli is still here.

IMO, and I could be totally wrong, Pioli is no longer actually the GM. He is employed by the organization probably due to the lawsuits he caused
Posted via Mobile Device

[TEX]

I disagree. Hunt is wrong with his strategy. Why would any good head coach want to be part of this soap opera in Kansas City? He neexs to fire Pioli Yesterday and move on!

[OnTheWarpath15]

I disagree. Hunt is wrong with his strategy. Why would any good head coach want to be part of this soap opera in Kansas City? He neexs to fire Pioli Yesterday and move on!

I wouldn't say he's wrong, he's just limiting his options.

Let's say he hires Dirk Koetter.

Who becomes GM?

Who the fuck is going to come to KC with no power and his job security in the hands of Dirk fucking Koetter?

Answer: No one.

Clark is severely limiting his options at both GM and HC by doing things this way.

Think about how many available guys in this league are qualified to be NFL GM's at this point - maybe 10, and that's counting the guys that have been fired.

Now - how many are qualified to be HC's?

There are 10 HC's that were just fired, plus the OC's/DC's from those staffs, plus college coaches. The talent pool is near 100.

But sure, let's ignore the pool that only has a handful or two of qualified candidates.

Which is why common sense says we're probably looking at a Cowher-type that wants full control.

[chiefzilla1501]

I disagree. Hunt is wrong with his strategy. Why would any good head coach want to be part of this soap opera in Kansas City? He neexs to fire Pioli Yesterday and move on!

If hunt is being sincere. There is no drama. The coach decides piolis role, period. If you're a veteran head coach like cowher, kc its a great situation. I think most coaches are smart enough to know that the soap opera won't exist unless they request it to continue.

[chiefzilla1501]

I wouldn't say he's wrong, he's just limiting his options.

Let's say he hires Dirk Koetter.

Who becomes GM?

Who the **** is going to come to KC with no power and his job security in the hands of Dirk ****ing Koetter?

Answer: No one.

Clark is severely limiting his options at both GM and HC by doing things this way.

Think about how many available guys in this league are qualified to be NFL GM's at this point - maybe 10, and that's counting the guys that have been fired.

Now - how many are qualified to be HC's?

There are 10 HC's that were just fired, plus the OC's/DC's from those staffs, plus college coaches. The talent pool is near 100.

But sure, let's ignore the pool that only has a handful or two of qualified candidates.

Which is why common sense says we're probably looking at a Cowher-type that wants full control.

You have to look at the reverse point too. If you're gruden, cowher, Reid, billick, hell maybe even Saban or dungy (not saying I want them... Just saying they could be on the market), they only have a few options to choose from too. It doesn't strike you as odd that half the teams are adopting the same strategy? Cleveland, Philly, San Diego are basically reporting the same strategy.

[OnTheWarpath15]

You have to look at the reverse point too. If you're gruden, cowher, Reid, billick, hell maybe even Saban or dungy (not saying I want them... Just saying they could be on the market), they only have a few options to choose from too. It doesn't strike you as odd that half the teams are adopting the same strategy? Cleveland, Philly, San Diego are basically reporting the same strategy.

Those teams are basically reporting the same strategy, and are going after the same kind of coach - a HC who wants total control.

There are only so many guys qualified to do this - and not all of them are going to return to coaching.

So it's likely one of these teams gets left without a chair when the music stops.

Hope it's not us.

[BigRock]

Clark is severely limiting his options at both GM and HC by doing things this way.

He's definitely limiting his options at GM. But the reverse would be true if he was targeting the GM first. When it came time to get a coach, he'd have to cross off all the big shots who want control. Like when he hired Pioli and it eliminated the Cowhers and Shanahans and those guys. Either way, you're going to limit yourself somehow.

But I don't see it limiting the coaching options as much as you seem to. Maybe I'm not following.

Clark clearly seems to be going after the big shot Cowher type, and while it'll definitely hurt if he misses, I don't think it has to be that kind of candidate. We're not getting a stud GM either way, and second-tier coaches can have personnel guys they want to work with too. It just won't excite anyone if that's what happens.

[Raiderhater]

I think Clark is planning on taking his shot at being a GM coupled with a strong coach.

If he hires the right coach, no reason it wont work, big IF, I know.

Pioli was neutered because Clark figures with the right HC he can make Pioli powerless for a year, be the GM in the meantime and decide to bring in another guy next year if he sees the need. Or not if things go well.

Outside of the draft and picking a HC what does a GM do anyway? Clark is going to pick a coach with personnel background. They Have Mark Donavon to run the business side already.

Clark gets a coach he trusts to run this draft and there is nothing for a GM to do short term anyway.

I don't think so. Clark strikes me as the type who would prefer to stay in the shadows and let other people do his bidding. I think he is not only embarrassed by what has taken place but, also annoyed that he is going to have to be more hands on. I really don't see him wanting to negotiate contracts and make trades. He will find someone to handle that for him, albiet with more input from himself now.

[PhillyChiefFan]

How do you know? I don't think Pioli will be retained. However, there are multiple financial reasons Pioli is temporarily holding the position. I can all but guarantee Hunts lawyers are looking over Pioli's contract right now looking for an out clause.

Yea, maybe firing him isnt an option yet but Clark has effectively cut his balls off and signaled to HC candidates that he's not a factor anymore. Good move by Clark. Accept the diminished role I've given you or GTFO, either way your presence will no longer be a determining factor when players/coaches decide not to come to KC.

[OnTheWarpath15]

He's definitely limiting his options at GM. But the reverse would be true if he was targeting the GM first. When it came time to get a coach, he'd have to cross off all the big shots who want control. Like when he hired Pioli and it eliminated the Cowhers and Shanahans and those guys. Either way, you're going to limit yourself somehow.

But I don't see it limiting the coaching options as much as you seem to. Maybe I'm not following.

Clark clearly seems to be going after the big shot Cowher type, and while it'll definitely hurt if he misses, I don't think it has to be that kind of candidate. We're not getting a stud GM either way, and second-tier coaches can have personnel guys they want to work with too. It just won't excite anyone if that's what happens.

And that's exactly why - along with a couple of other issues - it will be the big-shot kind of candidate.

Clark needs not only the right HC, but he needs a guy to fill seats.

Someone like Cowher, Reid, Gruden does that.

If Clark gets shut out and ends up hiring someone like Ray Horton, or the Syracuse coach, Arrowhead sits empty again next year.

Like I said, I think he's already thrown the kitchen sink at Bill Cowher - possibly at that meeting in Chicago in November - and is doing his due diligence in the event Cowher declines.

Time will tell, I guess.