PDA

View Full Version : Football Jadeveon Clowney should lawyer up, challenge nonsensical 'three-years-out' rule


Pages : [1] 2

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 07:58 PM
He is a 6-foot-6, 256-pound athletic wonder who tracks opposing ball carriers like a laser dot and punishes them like a vindictive medicine ball.

If Jadeveon Clowney were allowed to enter April's NFL draft, rather than prepare for his junior season at South Carolina, the dripping-with-talent defensive end would likely go in the top three, and possibly the top one. Jadeveon Clowney finished the 2012 season with 13 sacks. (USA Today Sports)

Yet Clowney, because of a nine-year-old decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit, doesn't have the option to cash in immediately on his potential. And the risk he'll assume by playing another season for the Gamecocks has prompted some, including Charlotte Observer columnist Tom Sorensen, to suggest that Clowney sit out the 2013 season before going pro.

I have a better idea: Clowney, who turns 20 on Valentine's Day, should lawyer up and try to barge his way into the NFL this spring – the same way he blasted into the Michigan backfield during last month's Outback Bowl.

If Clowney chooses to go this route, I'll wish him well: The NFL's existing, court-sanctioned rule requiring a player to be three full seasons removed from his high school graduation before becoming draft-eligible is ridiculous, on many levels.

[Also: Steve Spurrier laughs off notion that Jadeveon Clowney should sit '13 season ]

First, it's utter nonsense. According to this rule, a wunderkind who graduates high school at 14 can apply to play professional football before he's old enough to vote, but someone whose matriculation is delayed because of, say, a severe medical condition might have to wait until he's 22.

Secondly, it's a self-serving and greedy attempt to preserve what is essentially a free farm system for the NFL – and a corrupt and hypocritical college-football machine that pays off coaches and administrators while exploiting the labor of its elite athletes.

Thirdly, and most important, it is age discrimination in its most blatant form. If Freddy Adu can be selected in the MLS SuperDraft at the age of 14, and Steffi Graf can play a professional tennis tournament when she's a few months past her 13th birthday, how is it fair that someone like Clowney has to wait until he can drink legally before plying his trade?

This is the point at which many of you start firing off emails, tweets and faxes (wait, national Signing Day is over?... never mind about that last part) reminding me that the NFL is a different animal. Yes, I am aware that pro football at its highest level is an inherently dangerous pursuit, and I know this argument for challenging draft restrictions may seem to be at cross-purposes with the many columns I have written regarding the increased need for health-and-safety protections. My first answer would be that very young men (and women) are allowed to enter similarly daunting sports like boxing, MMA, hockey and auto racing without age limits.

My second response? Did you see that hit Clowney put on Michigan running back Vincent Smith in the Outback Bowl?

It's fair to surmise that Clowney's opponents are the ones who'll need protection.

"The guy looks like a beast," one AFC general manager says of Clowney. "Shows rare close and can really bend the edge and then he hits like a truck and shows some real nasty."

[Also: Jadeveon Clowney looks to take out $5 million insurance policy for 2013 season]

Echoed an NFC GM: "Yes, he's rare. He's a mixture of Jevon Kearse and JPP (Jason Pierre-Paul). He'd go number 1 right now, no later than two. He's an absolute freak."

It seems pretty obvious that Clowney is ready for the big leagues. And if it turns out he isn't – well, can't we let the market decide? And make no mistake: physical readiness is the only issue that's even worth debating. Plenty of older players with more college experience, from Ryan Leaf to JaMarcus Russell, have proven they're not mentally or emotionally mature enough to handle life in the NFL, but that didn't preclude them from entering the draft and getting paid. Jadeveon Clowney celebrates after a win over Michigan. (Getty)

Oddly enough, I would argue that the young players who'd be most in harm's way upon entering the NFL early – running backs – are the ones getting hurt most by the current system. If you are a young, strong runner like Alabama's T.J. Yeldon or Georgia's Todd Gurley, each of whom had standout seasons as true freshmen in 2012, why should you subject yourself to approximately 500 touches apiece over the next two years for free?

Consider that if either of those backs were to enter this year's draft – another NFC GM told me Yeldon would likely be the first back off the board in that scenario – he'd not only start getting paid for all that pounding, but he'd also enhance the chances of landing an elusive second (or even third) contract because of his relative youth.

I'm sure that in retrospect Clowney's former South Carolina teammate, Marcus Lattimore, wishes he could have turned pro after the 2010 season, in which he starred as a true freshman. A torn ACL in his left knee ended his sophomore campaign, and last October he suffered a gruesome injury to his right knee, tearing multiple ligaments and suffering a dislocation that put his future prospects in jeopardy. Lattimore plans to enter the draft but will go at a much lower spot – and receive far less guaranteed money – than he would have had he been eligible two years ago.

"For a running back, especially, the wear-and-tear is so great that it's tough to justify keeping them (in college for three years)," the second NFC general manager says. "Don't get me wrong: Fans like the current system, and a lot of these kids aren't emotionally ready for pro football – and, as with the NBA, you'd have a lot of guys washing out. But it's a free country. At some point, it seems like somebody's going to challenge it and win."

[Also: Student allegedly beaten by Crimson Tide players still loves Alabama football ]

Not surprisingly, running backs have been at the forefront of previous threats to the existing system. When Chicago Bears owner George Halas signed Illinois star Red Grange to a contract in November of 1925, it helped legitimize the young NFL while enraging college football's powers that be.

The Galloping Ghost's decision to leave following his junior season led to the establishment of a rule requiring players to be four years past their high school graduation before entering the NFL. That was later amended to the current three-years-removed restriction, in 1990. Thirteen years later, another running back – former Ohio State star Maurice Clarett – sued to enter the draft and temporarily succeeded in striking down the rule.

After a phenomenal freshman season in which he led the Buckeyes to a national championship, Clarett was suspended for his entire sophomore year for taking improper benefits. Two years removed from his high school graduation, Clarett convinced a U.S. District Court judge to allow him to enter the 2004 draft, essentially rendering the existing restrictions obsolete. That decision held that eligibility rules are not immune from antitrust scrutiny under the non-statutory labor exemption.

Eight other players who'd previously been ineligible for the '04 draft, including standout USC wide receiver Mike Williams, promptly declared, only to be left out in the cold when the decision was suspended by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit.

That same three-judge panel, which included future U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, later overturned the decision, and when the Supreme Court declined to hear the case, it essentially gave legal cover for the NFL's age-discrimination policies. Jadeveon Clowney smiles after a win over Georgia. (Getty)

I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me there are some reasonable arguments that could be made if one were to issue another challenge to the 2nd Circuit's decision. The appellate court essentially ruled that labor law trumps antitrust law in cases where the two conflict, and that both the NFL and the NFL Players Association should forgo individual antitrust protection for the sake of advancing the collective bargaining process.

However, the three-years-removed rule was not the product of collective bargaining, and draft-ineligible players (like Clarett then, or Clowney now) aren't yet members of the union. It's possible another appellate panel would ultimately view things differently, or even that the U.S. Supreme Court would take the case this time.

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith was unavailable for comment Wednesday, but another high-ranking union source said the organization would welcome a legal challenge by Clowney (and/or other players) to the Clarett Decision.

[Also: NCAA Rules Committee proposes ejections for targeting players ]

I have no idea if Clowney would be interested in such a crusade, but I can see why he would be: I ran his situation by six NFL general managers on Tuesday, and the consensus was that he would "fly off the board" if eligible for the 2013 draft, with three of the GMs saying he'd likely go No. 1 overall.

As per the rookie wage scale, last year's No. 1 overall pick, Andrew Luck, received a four-year, $22.1-million contract that was fully guaranteed. That, at a minimum, seems to be what Clowney would risk by playing for the Gamecocks in 2013.

Apply this model to other careers, and imagine being a 20-year-old in that position. In that context, it's easy to see why some people believe Clowney should consider sitting out his junior season. There was even an argument Wednesday on profootballtalk.com that Clowney should intentionally fail his classes to avoid the possibility of a serious injury that could impact his future earning potential. (If that's the path he chooses, I know plenty of folks from my college days who could give him some excellent pointers.)

At the very least, the young man should protect himself: Clowney is seeking an insurance policy of up to $5 million to guard against the possibility of a catastrophic injury that could prematurely end his career in 2013. It's unclear how he'd pay the premiums, however, and there are other potential flaws with such an arrangement, such as the likelihood that a career-altering (but not career-ending) injury likely wouldn't trigger a payout.

My advice to Clowney: Find yourself a good lawyer who'd be willing to take on your case pro bono – and I suspect there are a whole lot of them who'd be interested, for the principle and/or the publicity – and see if you can blow up that nine-year-old appellate court decision the way you do opposing backfields.

If nothing else, I'd love to see Vincent Smith subpoenaed as a character witness.



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--jadeveon-clowney-should-lawyer-up-court-challenge-three-years-out-rule-211521980.html

Ceej
02-13-2013, 08:01 PM
Not going to read alla that.

GloryDayz
02-13-2013, 08:04 PM
I'd like him to lawyer-up... That ruling seems silly at best. I mean I get it, but I really don't agree that a 20-year-old can't make such a choice.

And if he's too young to decide, that old-ass judge from last night's Obama session-of-lies HAS to be too old to be a judge!

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:05 PM
If he's in the draft, would that change anyone's opinion it's Geno or bust?

KCrockaholic
02-13-2013, 08:05 PM
If Clowney was in this draft we'd have a trade down partner easily so the morons could get their "value" QB.

KCrockaholic
02-13-2013, 08:05 PM
If he's in the draft, would that change anyone's opinion it's Geno or bust?

No. Let me know when Clowney can play QB.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 08:07 PM
DEs win championships.

hometeam
02-13-2013, 08:09 PM
If Clowney was in this draft we'd have a trade down partner easily so the morons could get their "value" QB.

This, trade down to 2 and take Geno :P

SAUTO
02-13-2013, 08:09 PM
If he's in the draft, would that change anyone's opinion it's Geno or bust?

I almost started a thread asking just this the other day.

goddamn it would be a tough call
Posted via Mobile Device

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:10 PM
DEs win championships.

If you really believe that there's no other QB that could remotely pan out, then yes, you have to take Geno.

I'm not ready to make that declaration.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:10 PM
The fundamental problem is that he's going to be drafted #1 overall next year.

If he "lawyer's up" and the courts work the way they usually do, he'll be eligible for the 2016 draft.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:11 PM
I almost started a thread asking just this the other day.

goddamn it would be a tough call
Posted via Mobile Device

I'd be very torn as well. This isn't Joekel, this is someone who is going to completely change a defense.

A trade down would be awesome, but I just don't know.

MotherfuckerJones
02-13-2013, 08:11 PM
Man thatd be a tough decision for me. I really like Geno and Clowney.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
02-13-2013, 08:12 PM
No. Let me know when Clowney can play QB.

But Manziel and Bridgewater could follow!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:12 PM
The fundamental problem is that he's going to be drafted #1 overall next year.

If he "lawyer's up" and the courts work the way they usually do, he'll be eligible for the 2016 draft.

They would absolutely fast track it the same way they did with Clarett.

It's all about the risk involved.

I'd actually be surprised if he didn't challenge it at this point. There's tons of smoke.

MotherfuckerJones
02-13-2013, 08:12 PM
Clowney, Hali, Houston all rushing the passer? WOW

O.city
02-13-2013, 08:13 PM
Being a Chiefs fan as deprived of QB play as we've been, i'd probably still take a chance on a QB, but it would be a tough decision.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:13 PM
Clowney, Hali, Houston all rushing the passer? WOW

The nickel package would be insane.

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:13 PM
If he's in the draft, would that change anyone's opinion it's Geno or bust?

I'm not Geno or bust, but Clowney would be my guy in this draft. Best player by far.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:14 PM
I'm not Geno or bust, but Clowney would be my guy in this draft. Best player by far.

I'm really leaning this way.

I hope he at least does challenge it to make it interesting. That pick would be a god damn mint if he was in this draft.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:14 PM
They would absolutely fast track it the same way they did with Clarett.

It's all about the risk involved.

I'd actually be surprised if he didn't challenge it at this point. There's tons of smoke.

Clarett was a unique case in which he was literally without any other option. Clowney can got back to school and play football. He can't do it for money, no, but he's not being forced to sit at home and do nothing.

Even if they fast track it, it's going to be a HUGE distraction and one I wouldn't want anywhere near my team.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:14 PM
Thank god he is not coming out.

We'd have 79 percent of the fanbase screaming CLOWNEY!!!!

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
Thank god he is not coming out.

We'd have 79 percent of the fanbase screaming CLOWNEY!!!!

How do you know he's not coming out?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
I'm really leaning this way.

I hope he at least does challenge it to make it interesting. That pick would be a god damn mint if he was in this draft.

Jacksonville would obviously want him badly.

I'd be tempted to see what I could get for trading down to #2 and taking Geno there.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
DEs win championships.

Neither will "Geno".

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
This really is a terrible article

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
How do you know he's not coming out?

Right now, he can't.

And he'd be stupid to actually declare at this point. If the court doesn't rule in his favor, he'd be ineligible to return to college.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
Clowney, Hali, Houston all rushing the passer? WOW

Nah, they'll be giving each other blows while we have no QB.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
How do you know he's not coming out?

Because I've been right about everything for over a year. Pay attention.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
Neither will "Geno".

Going all in on being the "voice of reason" huh?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
Neither will "Geno".

Shut up you stupid son of a bitch. Everything you typed last night just got blown to hell with one post.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:18 PM
Clarett was a unique case in which he was literally without any other option. Clowney can got back to school and play football. He can't do it for money, no, but he's not being forced to sit at home and do nothing.

Even if they fast track it, it's going to be a HUGE distraction and one I wouldn't want anywhere near my team.

That's absurd.

What distraction? That he's fighting a ridiculous rule?

I'm not understanding you. So you think Clarett had a case because he couldn't do anything? What was forcing him to sit home instead of going to the CFL or arena league? Clowney is playing this game for free, which I think carries a lot more weight than Clarett's case.

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:18 PM
Because I've been right about everything for over a year. Pay attention.

Cassel is still here don't forget.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 08:18 PM
Neither will "Geno".

Neither will Peppers.

lcarus
02-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Thank god he is not coming out.

We'd have 79 percent of the fanbase screaming CLOWNEY!!!!

I'd have to agree with that 79%. As much as I like Geno and as desperately as we need a QB, Clowney is just an absolute stud and rushing the passer is such an important element in todays game.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Nah, they'll be giving each other blows while we have no QB.

This line of thinking is hysterical. It's literally become a cult on here. You're right. if no QB is selected #1 overall, we might as well just run the wild cat every game.

tk13
02-13-2013, 08:20 PM
DE's can help win titles though. That's half the reason the Giants won two of them... pass rushers, pass rushers, pass rushers. They didn't waste their efforts on overpaying DB's and just drafted DE after DE until they could assault the QB. I don't think you can have too many pass rushers anymore. I'd definitely take Clowney over Joeckel... and you'd have to consider the QBs too. It would not be a thrown away pick.

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 08:20 PM
Because I've been right about everything for over a year. Pay attention.

LOL I think everyone knew Pioli and Crennel would be gone.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:20 PM
Right now, he can't.

And he'd be stupid to actually declare at this point. If the court doesn't rule in his favor, he'd be ineligible to return to college.

Why would he be ineligible? He wouldn't be signing with an agent.

The_Doctor10
02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
"Jadeveon".... God bless the African American community.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
That's absurd.

What distraction? That he's fighting a ridiculous rule?

I'm not understanding you. So you think Clarett had a case because he couldn't do anything? What was forcing him to sit home instead of going to the CFL or arena league? Clowney is playing this game for free, which I think carries a lot more weight than Clarett's case.

It's going to be a legal battle. His status is going to be up in the air for quite some time.

And ultimately, if they don't rule in his favor he'll be stuck in limbo, the team who invested him having wasted a draft pick.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
Because I've been right about everything for over a year. Pay attention.

What about the "balla ass Gm"?

Get fucking real.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:22 PM
Why would he be ineligible? He wouldn't be signing with an agent.

I'm guessing that suing the NFL could be construed as a declaration of intentions, in the same way that signing with an agent is.

O.city
02-13-2013, 08:22 PM
Has Clowney himself even said he wants to do this?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:23 PM
What about the "balla ass Gm"?

Get fucking real.

That was over a year ago. Statute of limitations!

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:23 PM
It's going to be a legal battle. His status is going to be up in the air for quite some time.

And ultimately, if they don't rule in his favor he'll be stuck in limbo, the team who invested him having wasted a draft pick.

obviously nobody is investing until after the decision.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:23 PM
What about the "balla ass Gm"?

Get fucking real.

That was just an expression of praise for the 2011 draft.

And that was a lonnnng time ago, not even talking about that period.

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:23 PM
Has Clowney himself even said he wants to do this?

A young guy being told he could easily go #1 and make millions?


Sign me up

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
I'm guessing that suing the NFL could be construed as a declaration of intentions, in the same way that signing with an agent is.

wut

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
That was over a year ago. Statute of limitations!

My run of glory started with Haley's firing. Thank you very much.

Ceej
02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
"Jadeveon".... God bless the African American community.

Jamal + David + Evan = Jadeveon?

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
That was just an expression of praise for the 2011 draft.

And that was a lonnnng time ago, not even talking about that period.

If I remember right, it was after Winston signed. So we still are under a year.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:25 PM
obviously nobody is investing until after the decision.

Which, as I originally stated, might not happen before this draft, gaining him exactly jack and shit.

O.city
02-13-2013, 08:25 PM
Either take him or call the Jags and say, "i'll take this years 2, next years first and second and trade spots with you".

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:26 PM
wut

Hiring a lawyer and suing the NFL to become "draft eligible" could absolutely be considered, by the NCAA, as a "professional" undertaking, thus making him ineligible to play college football.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:26 PM
If I remember right, it was after Winston signed. So we still are under a year.

Huh? No. Balla ass GM was right after the 2011 draft.

As soon as ***** hired Romeo to be HC I was done with his dumb ass and there was no more praise.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 08:26 PM
I will say we have the right colors for a guy named Clowney.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:27 PM
Hiring a lawyer and suing the NFL to become "draft eligible" could absolutely be considered, by the NCAA, as a "professional" undertaking, thus making him ineligible to play college football.

You're really reaching here.

He's not taking money, not hiring an agent. Clarett was ruled ineligible before he did this.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:27 PM
Huh? No. Balla ass GM was right after the 2011 draft.

As soon as ***** hired Romeo to be HC I was done with his dumb ass and there was no more praise.

You're flighty.

Like a girl.

:D

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:27 PM
Hiring a lawyer and suing the NFL to become "draft eligible" could absolutely be considered, by the NCAA, as a "professional" undertaking, thus making him ineligible to play college football.

Probably not.

Mr. Laz
02-13-2013, 08:28 PM
I'd like him to lawyer-up... That ruling seems silly at best. I mean I get it, but I really don't agree that a 20-year-old can't make such a choice.

And if he's too young to decide, that old-ass judge from last night's Obama session-of-lies HAS to be too old to be a judge!
you really want the NFL draft rules etc to go to the courts?


i bet you want Donald Fehr to take over the NFLPA too.

okcchief
02-13-2013, 08:28 PM
If Clowney could come out he would be the number one pick, and I would be totally ok with it. I'd hope one of these QBs would drop late 1st or early second.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:28 PM
You're really reaching here.

He's not taking money, not hiring an agent. Clarett was ruled ineligible before he did this.

I'm not "reaching", I'm discussing the possibilities. Let's not pretend any of us KNOW what will happen.

This isn't gonna be some piece of cake, let's take the guy #1 in April thing, no matter how much you would like it to be.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:29 PM
You're flighty.

Like a girl.

:D

You don't tug on Superman's cape.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:30 PM
You don't tug on Superman's cape.

ROFL

Dude, you are funny as hell. I'll give you that.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:30 PM
Adding a luxury pass rusher on a team without a QB would be a stupid pick anyway.

Imagine having three guys who can rush the passer but never get to rush the passer because you can't get a lead.

Pioli would make the pick for sure.

Bump
02-13-2013, 08:33 PM
Clowney does have rare talent. He's gonna be a beast.

But I think it's bullshit that players are forced to go to college if they are perfectly capable of earning money without college. Like look at the dude from Kentucky, all that money = gone because he was forced to go to college.

This is just another way of control. If you can come out of high school and an NBA team wants to hire you, they should be allowed to. If a football player is ready to play in the NFL and teams are willing to pay you, that shouldn't be disallowed.

After all, earning money is the only reason why people go to college. Because they want to make money!

Money is all that matters in this country, so they should be allowed to earn it.

I bet the NBA/NFL is in collusion with the NCAA. It's another way of controlling people, they are forced to go to college and will get in huge trouble if they even take any money from someone while everyone else around them are getting rich off of them. It's not right. NBA teams get another scouting year while NCAA teams make money off of them.

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:35 PM
Adding a luxury pass rusher on a team without a QB would be a stupid pick anyway.

Imagine having three guys who can rush the passer but never get to rush the passer because you can't get a lead.

***** would make the pick for sure.

Every GM in the league would make that pick.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:36 PM
Every GM in the league would make that pick.

That's why the average tenure is like 4 years.

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:37 PM
Wonder what we could get in order for us to swap with Jacks?

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:40 PM
That's why the average tenure is like 4 years.

Yeah, I'm thinking that's probably not the case.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:48 PM
Remember when the Texans took Mario Williams #1?

Was he worth it in the end?

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 08:48 PM
Remember when the Texans took Mario Williams #1?

Was he worth it in the end?

Over Bush yes

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:48 PM
Remember when the Texans took Mario Williams #1?

Was he worth it in the end?

2 different players bro, nice try.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:49 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking that's probably not the case.

Taking another pass rusher, when you have 2 pro bowlers and ZILCH at QB, which is the situation the Chiefs are in, is absolutely why guys get fired.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:50 PM
2 different players bro, nice try.

Almost no difference between them as prospects.

Mario Williams was a freaking beast in every sense of the word.

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:50 PM
Remember when the Texans took Mario Williams #1?

Was he worth it in the end?


Should they have drafted Vince Young?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:52 PM
Should they have drafted Vince Young?

One could argue they should have taken Jay Cutler.

Instead they took Williams, went with Schaub, and have been a pretender ever since.

Deberg_1990
02-13-2013, 08:53 PM
But I think it's bullshit that players are forced to go to college if they are perfectly capable of earning money without college. Like look at the dude from Kentucky, all that money = gone because he was forced to go to college.

This is just another way of control. If you can come out of high school and an NBA team wants to hire you, they should be allowed to. If a football player is ready to play in the NFL and teams are willing to pay you, that shouldn't be disallowed.

After all, earning money is the only reason why people go to college. Because they want to make money!

Money is all that matters in this country, so they should be allowed to earn it.

I bet the NBA/NFL is in collusion with the NCAA. It's another way of controlling people, they are forced to go to college and will get in huge trouble if they even take any money from someone while everyone else around them are getting rich off of them. It's not right. NBA teams get another scouting year while NCAA teams make money off of them.



The NFL is private company. They can run their company and set their rules anyway they want.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:53 PM
One could argue they should have taken Jay Cutler.

Instead they took Williams, went with Schaub, and have been a pretender ever since.

Jay Cutler goes #1 if that round is redrafted.

In58men
02-13-2013, 08:55 PM
Almost no difference between them as prospects.

Mario Williams was a freaking beast in every sense of the word.

So was Peyton and Leaf.


2 different guys with similar things and stuff.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2013, 08:55 PM
If we drafted Clowney over Geno I'd fucking kill someone.

Brock
02-13-2013, 08:57 PM
Jay Cutler goes #1 if that round is redrafted.

No shit sherlock. Cutler wasn't thought of as a top 3 pick though. Vince Young was.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:58 PM
Taking another pass rusher, when you have 2 pro bowlers and ZILCH at QB, which is the situation the Chiefs are in, is absolutely why guys get fired.

So what you're saying is that you don't trust Andy Reid to coach up any QB besides Geno Smith?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 08:58 PM
So was Peyton and Leaf.


2 different guys with similar things and stuff.

That's a poor comparison.

Mario Williams is a very, very good DE. He's not a bust. He's averaged 10 sacks a year for the last 6 seasons.

But neither of the franchises he's played for have done shit. Why? Because even great pass rushers are tied to the fate of the QB leading the team.

Derrick Thomas much?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 08:58 PM
The NFL is private company. They can run their company and set their rules anyway they want.

They have an antitrust exemption. They can't run their company any way they want.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 08:59 PM
One could argue they should have taken Jay Cutler.

Instead they took Williams, went with Schaub, and have been a pretender ever since.

Yes, because Jay Cutler's career has been far different than Matt Schaub.

O.city
02-13-2013, 08:59 PM
So what you're saying is that you don't trust Andy Reid to coach up any QB besides Geno Smith?

If this QB class is such trash, why take the 5 best QB and not the 1st?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
Yes, because Jay Cutler's career has been far different than Matt Schaub.

I think Jay Cutler would have kicked ass in Houston under Kubiak with that defense, OL and running game.

Now put Matt Schaub in Chicago and watch them go 6-10.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
So what you're saying is that you don't trust Andy Reid to coach up any QB besides Geno Smith?

Even if Andy Reid is QB Jesus, you always get more out of maximizing the talent of a more talented player over a less talented one. It's just math.

If Geno is the best QB, you take him. Period.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
So what you're saying is that you don't trust Andy Reid to coach up any QB besides Geno Smith?

Did I say anything about Geno Smith?

I want them to take a QB and develop him, whether that be Smith, Wilson, or even Barkley.

It's not Geno or bust for me, no matter how much you want to make it out to be.

But we have the #1 overall pick for the first and only time in the 30+ years I've been a fan. They better not fuck this up. I've been nothing but loyal for 3 decades of bullshit, it's time for payback.

Brock
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
Taking another pass rusher, when you have 2 pro bowlers and ZILCH at QB, which is the situation the Chiefs are in, is absolutely why guys get fired.

Drafting Jamarcus Russell also gets you fired.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2013, 09:02 PM
No shit sherlock. Cutler wasn't thought of as a top 3 pick though. Vince Young was.

IIRC, Leinart was considered a better prospect by most. Fisher wanted to take Cutler at 3. Floyd Reese and Adams overruled him, taking the world's dumbest sonofabitch.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:03 PM
If this QB class is such trash, why take the 5 best QB and not the 1st?

I don't think it's that awful of a class.

I don't think Barkley's stock has disintegrated over one year like most do. I think someone will emerge from the middle tier and have a successful NFL career.

Clowney is the only one I take that chance with.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:03 PM
Drafting Jamarcus Russell also gets you fired.

Good thing there's 3 guys in this draft that are FAR superior to Jamarcus Russell in just about every way...

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:04 PM
Did I say anything about Geno Smith?

I want them to take a QB and develop him, whether that be Smith, Wilson, or even Barkley.

It's not Geno or bust for me, no matter how much you want to make it out to be.

But we have the #1 overall pick for the first and only time in the 30+ years I've been a fan. They better not **** this up. I've been nothing but loyal for 3 decades of bullshit, it's time for payback.

So if they in a perfect world ended up with Clowney and Barkley, how would you feel?

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:04 PM
I would take Clowney and try to trade hali or houston to get a Qb.

In58men
02-13-2013, 09:06 PM
I would take Clowney and try to trade hali or houston to get a Qb.

Good god

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 09:06 PM
I would take Clowney and try to trade hali or houston to get a Qb.

Who's going to give you a championship caliber QB for one of those guys?

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:07 PM
Who's going to give you a championship caliber QB for one of those guys?

You would get a nice draft pick for either. You think Hali is going to win a super bowl here?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:07 PM
I would take Clowney and try to trade hali or houston to get a Qb.

NAW I DON'T WANT NO GENO SMITH

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:08 PM
So if they in a perfect world ended up with Clowney and Barkley, how would you feel?

I'd be alright with that.

But to me that's not a perfect world, that's a fantasy world.

If we're gonna get Wilson, Smith, or Barley, it's at #1. This idea that the stars are going to align, the Red Sea is gonna part, and we're gonna trade up to #21 to get "our" QB is pure unicorns and rainbows.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:09 PM
NAW I DON'T WANT NO GENO SMITH

You dont even watch college football.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:09 PM
I don't think it's that awful of a class.

I don't think Barkley's stock has disintegrated over one year like most do. I think someone will emerge from the middle tier and have a successful NFL career.

Clowney is the only one I take that chance with.

I can totally respect this opinion but I just can't wrap my mind around it.

We had Derrick Thomas, one of the best pass rushers of ALL TIME, and he couldn't get into the HoF because he NEVER had a QB worth a shit.

It's time to decide whether we're gonna fish with the big boys or sit on the bank and cut bait.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 09:09 PM
You would get a nice draft pick for either. You think Hali is going to win a super bowl here?

Not if he doesn't have a QB.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:12 PM
You dont even watch college football.

Wrong.

Shit dude, Derrick Thomas is a fucking HOF pass rusher. Didn't win shit, didn't even get close the last 7 years of his career.

Why? No QB.

And in the last 10, hell the last TWENTY years I can't think of a single team that won a Super Bowl because they took a pass rusher over a QB.

You know how you win SBs?

You get the Troy Aikman, and then you go trade for Charles Haley.

Or you have the John Elway and you go sign Neil Smith.

Fuck Jadaveon Clowney, especially as our third pass rusher.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:12 PM
I can totally respect this opinion but I just can't wrap my mind around it.

We had Derrick Thomas, one of the best pass rushers of ALL TIME, and he couldn't get into the HoF because he NEVER had a QB worth a shit.

It's time to decide whether we're gonna fish with the big boys or sit on the bank and cut bait.

This goes back to my other post then. You are basically saying at 2.2 we have no shot at any QB worth shit, and I disagree with that.

I don't think Geno Smith is the end all, be all at QB in this draft.

Brock
02-13-2013, 09:13 PM
I can totally respect this opinion but I just can't wrap my mind around it.

We had Derrick Thomas, one of the best pass rushers of ALL TIME, and he couldn't get into the HoF because he NEVER had a QB worth a shit.

It's time to decide whether we're gonna fish with the big boys or sit on the bank and cut bait.

QBs were harder to find back then. A LOT harder to find.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:14 PM
Kevin Greene had 160 fucking sacks.

He win any SBs?

LoneWolf
02-13-2013, 09:14 PM
Clowney does have rare talent. He's gonna be a beast.

But I think it's bullshit that players are forced to go to college if they are perfectly capable of earning money without college. Like look at the dude from Kentucky, all that money = gone because he was forced to go to college.

This is just another way of control. If you can come out of high school and an NBA team wants to hire you, they should be allowed to. If a football player is ready to play in the NFL and teams are willing to pay you, that shouldn't be disallowed.

After all, earning money is the only reason why people go to college. Because they want to make money!

Money is all that matters in this country, so they should be allowed to earn it.

I bet the NBA/NFL is in collusion with the NCAA. It's another way of controlling people, they are forced to go to college and will get in huge trouble if they even take any money from someone while everyone else around them are getting rich off of them. It's not right. NBA teams get another scouting year while NCAA teams make money off of them.

The rules concerning having to go to college for a certain amount of time before being able to turn pro have benefits for the student athletes, the NCAA, and the professional leagues. The athletes get time to mature and time to find out if they actually have what it takes to play at the next level. The NCAA gets to reap the benefits of marketing these athletes and making a profit, and the professional leagues get to lessen their risks by actually getting to see these athletes play against other top competition before investing millions on teenagers.

This bullshit about the kids get nothing while everyone else gets rich is stupid. A free college education is nothing to sneeze at. Most of these kids are going to need skills other than their athletic prowess to make a living. College affords them the opportunity to acquire these skills. It's just too bad they don't all realize this.

Your argument that these kids are forced to go to college is false by the way. They don't have to go to college. They could simply get a job, stay in shape, and apply for the NBA or NFL draft when they are old enough.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:14 PM
If Clowney turns out to be as good as Hali he still isn't making us win anything. The importance of the QB is so magnified that even an above average to even average QB is a better option than Clowney or any other elite pass rusher.


And the point that a few have made about Clowney being rendered essentially useless because of no ability from the offense to score is something that can't be overlooked.

Houston dumped Mario and still won 12 games with what can only be considered a middle of the road QB.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:15 PM
I just wouldn't be willing to role with Clowney and Glennon or Manuel, if a run on QB's happened.

Brock
02-13-2013, 09:15 PM
If Clowney turns out to be as good as Hali he still isn't making us win anything. The importance of the QB is so magnified that even an above average to even average QB is a better option than Clowney or any other elite pass rusher.


And the point that a few have made about Clowney being rendered essentially useless because of no ability from the offense to score is something that can't be overlooked.

Houston dumped Mario and still won 12 games with what can only be considered a middle of the road QB.

They replaced Williams with a better player.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:17 PM
Kevin Greene had 160 ****ing sacks.

He win any SBs?

Jim Kelly threw for 35k, he win any SBs?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:17 PM
This goes back to my other post then. You are basically saying at 2.2 we have no shot at any QB worth shit, and I disagree with that.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying at 2-2, we have a 1000-times smaller chance of finding any QB worth a shit.

I'm done gambling with the QB position or looking for a diamond in the rough. We have the #1 overall pick for the first time ever. It's put up or shut up time.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:18 PM
QBs were harder to find back then. A LOT harder to find.

Then I guess it's time to take one. Much less risk.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:19 PM
No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying at 2-2, we have a 1000-times smaller chance of finding any QB worth a shit.

I'm done gambling with the QB position or looking for a diamond in the rough. We have the #1 overall pick for the first time ever. It's put up or shut up time.

This isn't passing on Andrew Luck and trying to strike gold later. This is passing on Geno Smith for Clowney.

I'm just not buying that it's 1000x smaller of a chance that someone at 2.2 pans out than him.

There's no way you're advocating taking Barkley or Tyler Wilson 1 overall.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:19 PM
This goes back to my other post then. You are basically saying at 2.2 we have no shot at any QB worth shit, and I disagree with that.

I don't think Geno Smith is the end all, be all at QB in this draft.

The argument can easily be made that there isn't much difference than Geno, Wilson, and Barkley. But if you want to say the guys we can get at 2.2 are just as good options, that is not an argument that can be made. Also, Jags get two picks before we choose a QB...no thanks?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:19 PM
Jim Kelly threw for 35k, he win any SBs?

He played in 4.

We've won FOUR playoff games period in 40 years.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:20 PM
Jim Kelly threw for 35k, he win any SBs?

Are you serious? LMAO

Brock
02-13-2013, 09:20 PM
Then I guess it's time to take one. Much less risk.

My guess is that isn't going to happen.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:21 PM
He played in 4.

We've won FOUR playoff games period in 40 years.

He didn't win any of them. If a player took this team to 4 SBs and lost all of them they'd be thought of worse than Lin Elliott.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:21 PM
This isn't passing on Andrew Luck and trying to strike gold later. This is passing on Geno Smith for Clowney.

I'm just not buying that it's 1000x smaller of a chance that someone at 2.2 pans out than him.

There's no way you're advocating taking Barkley or Tyler Wilson 1 overall.

If that's who they are targeting, then I absolutely am advocating that.

Picking a QB at 2.2 means Mike Glennon or Ryan Nassib or EJ Manuel. We might as well roll with Alex Smith.

I guess I should say, you might as well roll with Alex Smith. Because I'm done. I've put in my time and I'm not down for more.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:21 PM
He didn't win any of them. If a player took this team to 4 SBs and lost all of them they'd be thought of worse than the kicker that shall go unnamedt.

Absolutely not.

The Bills are such a statistical outlier it's not even really worth using them as an example for anything...other than drafting a 1st round QB = a lot of god damn sustained success if you hit.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:21 PM
Wrong.

Shit dude, Derrick Thomas is a fucking HOF pass rusher. Didn't win shit, didn't even get close the last 7 years of his career.

Why? No QB.

And in the last 10, hell the last TWENTY years I can't think of a single team that won a Super Bowl because they took a pass rusher over a QB.

You know how you win SBs?

You get the Troy Aikman, and then you go trade for Charles Haley.

Or you have the John Elway and you go sign Neil Smith.

Fuck Jadaveon Clowney, especially as our third pass rusher.

So we couldnt trade up and grab a qb? Interesting.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:22 PM
He didn't win any of them. If a player took this team to 4 SBs and lost all of them they'd be thought of worse than the kicker that shall go unnamedt.

I can only speak for myself and no, I wouldn't think of him worse than anyone. I'd be erecting a statue for him.

But it's pretty obvious I have different goals for the team I root for than most people.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:22 PM
Are you serious? LMAO

Are you with the bullshit "Kevin Greene had 160 sacks and never won one". It's an atrocious argument that really can swing on both sides.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:22 PM
So we couldnt trade up and grab a qb? Interesting.

Could we? Sure.

Is it likely? No.

You don't gamble to get value. This whole discussion is absurd.

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:22 PM
I can only speak for myself and no, I wouldn't think of him worse than anyone. I'd be erecting a statue for him.

But it's pretty obvious I have different goals for the team I root for than most people.

My goal is to win a SB. If we got to 4 and lost them all, there's no way you'd be celebrating that.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:23 PM
If that's who they are targeting, then I absolutely am advocating that.

Picking a QB at 2.2 means Mike Glennon or Ryan Nassib or EJ Manuel. We might as well roll with Alex Smith.

I guess I should say, you might as well roll with Alex Smith. Because I'm done. I've put in my time and I'm not down for more.

Glennon probably goes in round 1 or to the Jags if they don't take one second because he looks like a QB. I absolutely don't what him.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:24 PM
Are you with the bullshit "Kevin Greene had 160 sacks and never won one". It's an atrocious argument that really can swing on both sides.

Name a pass rusher who led a team to a SB win.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:24 PM
My goal is to win a SB. If we got to 4 and lost them all, there's no way you'd be celebrating that.

My goal is to get to a Super Bowl before I FUCKING DIE. If they win, cherry on top.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:25 PM
Reggie White never wins SHIT if the Packers don't have Brett Favre.

Disagree?

I mean how'd he do in Philly?

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:27 PM
Reggie White never wins SHIT if the Packers don't have Brett Favre.

Disagree?

I mean how'd he do in Philly?

He had Randall Cunningham who was a pretty god damn good QB.

I'm sure you probably think he was Casey Printers though.

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 09:27 PM
Reggie White never wins SHIT if the Packers don't have Brett Favre.

Disagree?

I mean how'd he do in Philly?

I think the Giants front 4 helped them win Superbowl in 09

The Bad Guy
02-13-2013, 09:28 PM
Name a pass rusher who led a team to a SB win.

The 2007 New York Giants. I'm sure though you'll tell me it was the miracle helmet catch and the fade pattern to the 6'4 WR on the 5'10 corner singled up.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:29 PM
I think the Giants front 4 helped them win Superbowl in 09

And one clutch throw from Eli actually won it.

Twice.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 09:29 PM
My goal is to win a SB. If we got to 4 and lost them all, there's no way you'd be celebrating that.

And which QBs win more SBs, retreads/value guys or top picks?

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:29 PM
The 2007 New York Giants. I'm sure though you'll tell me it was the miracle helmet catch and the fade pattern to the 6'4 WR on the 5'10 corner singled up.

Ok, 1.


Name the Qb's who've lead a team to a SB win.

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 09:30 PM
And one clutch throw from Eli actually won it.

Twice.

Yeah but if the Giants front 4 did mess with Brady all game it doesn't come down to that throw.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:30 PM
The 2007 New York Giants. I'm sure though you'll tell me it was the miracle helmet catch and the fade pattern to the 6'4 WR on the 5'10 corner singled up.

You can't separate the two.

This is a never-win argument.

That team had Eli Manning.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Yeah but if the Giants front 4 did mess with Brady all game it doesn't come down to that throw.

The thing is, playoff games are ALWAYS going to come down to that throw.

And that's why the Chiefs are ALWAYS going home.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:31 PM
I guess the better question would be, "name the pass rusher to win a SB, without blah blah QB play."

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:31 PM
The 2007 New York Giants.

LMAO

They don't win that SB without Eli Manning.

Michael Strahan didn't win SHIT before Eli came along.

Bewbies
02-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Clowney is the only guy in college football right now that one could discuss at #1 overall that isn't a QB.

Love him, would love to have him, but at #1 overall you grab the best QB available.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:32 PM
I guess the better question would be, "name the pass rusher to win a SB, without blah blah QB play."

There isn't one.

And I'm guessing you'd be equally challenged to find a QB that won a Super Bowl without a pretty damn good pass rush.

The problem is that we're talking about the CHIEFS.

THEY ALREADY HAVE A PRETTY DAMN GOOD PASS RUSH.

We have a fucking meteor crater at QB.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:33 PM
I can probably speak for htis in saying, We have the first overall pick a pick which needs to be spent on filling the biggest hole on this team. If the braintrust of the Chiefs figure that to be Barkley, Wilson, Smith etc, fine, take him at 1. I'm fine with that, even if it is a reach.


Now, if Clowney were to enter it might change, but I'm not sure how much.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:33 PM
Michael Strahan had 9 sacks that year, and 2 in 4 postseason games. LMAO

He led that team to a SB win? LMAO

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 09:34 PM
I guess the better question would be, "name the pass rusher to win a SB, without blah blah QB play."

And that answer is, a pass rusher on an all world DEF which we will not have under Reid.

Yay! Let's draft Simeon Rice!!!

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:35 PM
Do we win more games next year by adding 13 sacks or 13 passing TDs?

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 09:35 PM
LMAO

They don't win that SB without Eli Manning.

Michael Strahan didn't win SHIT before Eli came along.

Eli was the number 1 QB coming out 04. This is a bad QB class in 2013 if the Chiefs didn't have the number 1 pick and need a QB. We all would be agreeing with Kiper and McShay

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:36 PM
Do we win more games next year by adding 13 sacks or 13 passing TDs?

That's an obvious rhetorical question.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:36 PM
Eli was the number 1 QB coming out 04. This is a bad QB class in 2013 if the Chiefs didn't have the number 1 pick and need a QB. We all would be agreeing with Kiper and McShay

False.

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 09:37 PM
False.

We can Agree to Disagree

milkman
02-13-2013, 09:37 PM
The 2007 New York Giants. I'm sure though you'll tell me it was the miracle helmet catch and the fade pattern to the 6'4 WR on the 5'10 corner singled up.

I've said this before.

That catch was not spectacular.

That was a well placed throw that Tyree almost dropped.

If he hadn't misplayed that ball, the actual spectacular part of that play, eli breaking out of a sack and finding Tyree, would be the topic of discussion.

It's team sport, but the Giants don' win without clutch QB play.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:37 PM
Could we? Sure.

Is it likely? No.

You don't gamble to get value. This whole discussion is absurd.

Lol what about when the niners took aldon smith over a qb?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:39 PM
Lol what about when the niners took aldon smith over a qb?

They already had a QB on roster. You can't compare the 49ers to the current Chiefs situation in any way. Not even remotely similar.

They took Kaepernick as a prospect because his ceiling was off the charts.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:39 PM
That's an obvious rhetorical question.

Sure is. And it's magnified by the fact that adding 13 pass TDs from a rookie QB is not nearly as difficult to attain as adding 13 sacks from Clowney.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:40 PM
We can Agree to Disagree

No we can't.

We can agree to disagree on whether this is a weak QB class.

But you went on to say what I and others would be saying if we didn't have the #1 pick.

You're wrong. You're not a mind reader and you have no idea what I would be saying under those circumstances.

Speak for yourself.

Pitt Gorilla
02-13-2013, 09:40 PM
I'm not Geno or bust, but Clowney would be my guy in this draft. Best player by far.yup. He's dominant.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:40 PM
Sure is. And it's magnified by the fact that adding 13 pass TDs from a rookie QB is not nearly as difficult to attain as adding 13 sacks from Clowney.

Yeah, because 13 sacks from Clowney doesn't mean a NET increase of 13 sacks.

Somebody else is gonna get less.

MotherfuckerJones
02-13-2013, 09:41 PM
Its not the best QB class but who in this draft is as bad as Russell and Quinn?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:41 PM
I've said this before.

That catch was not spectacular.

That was a well placed throw that Tyree almost dropped.

If he hadn't misplayed that ball, the actual spectacular part of that play, eli breaking out of a sack and finding Tyree, would be the topic of discussion.

It's team sport, but the Giants don' win without clutch QB play.

http://eriklundegaard.com/media/2/reeve-superman.jpg

Pitt Gorilla
02-13-2013, 09:42 PM
I've said this before.

That catch was not spectacular.

That was a well placed throw that Tyree almost dropped.

If he hadn't misplayed that ball, the actual spectacular part of that play, eli breaking out of a sack and finding Tyree, would be the topic of discussion.

It's team sport, but the Giants don' win without clutch QB play.that qb is so clutch they missed the playoffs.

ShowtimeSBMVP
02-13-2013, 09:42 PM
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout

If Jadeveon Clowney were somehow allowed into 2013 NFL draft, the #Chiefs would have an easy decision to make. He's a defensive Andrew Luck.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:43 PM
Lol what about when the niners took aldon smith over a qb?

Yes, they did.


However, and this is with hindsight obviously, if that situation occurred again, knowing what they know now, think it would go down the same?

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:44 PM
that qb is so clutch they missed the playoffs.

That's because he was too busy POLISHING HIS FUCKING SUPER BOWL RINGS.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:44 PM
that qb is so clutch they missed the playoffs.

He and his two super bowl titles...what a loser.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:46 PM
Yes, they did.


However, and this is with hindsight obviously, if that situation occurred again, knowing what they know now, think it would go down the same?

Why the fuck wouldnt they?

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:46 PM
Its not the best QB class but who in this draft is as bad as Russell and Quinn?

How about the aforementioned 2006 class with Vince Young and Matt Leinart?

tk13
02-13-2013, 09:46 PM
It's pointless to have an either/or argument. You have to have both. You have to have a QB capable of making big plays, and a defense that is able to rattle the other QB. If you are missing one of those components you will not win in today's NFL. Nobody can win an argument between the two.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Why the **** wouldnt they?

Cause I doubt knowing what we know now, Kaep would be available that long.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Why the fuck wouldnt they?

Colin Kaepernick would go #1 overall.

mr. tegu
02-13-2013, 09:48 PM
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout

If Jadeveon Clowney were somehow allowed into 2013 NFL draft, the #Chiefs would have an easy decision to make. He's a defensive Andrew Luck.

People seem to forget that offenses can scheme to avoid defensive players. Those game plans and schemes occur before the snap and can effectively limit the number of chances a certain player has to make a play.

Defenses can't prevent the QB from touching the ball every single play. The defensive schemes no matter how good, cannot prevent the QB from having the opportunity to make a play every time he drops back to pass.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:48 PM
It's pointless to have an either/or argument. You have to have both. You have to have a QB capable of making big plays, and a defense that is able to rattle the other QB. If you are missing one of those components you will not win in today's NFL. Nobody can win an argument between the two.

And guess which piece we're missing?

People have let themselves become convinced that this QB class isn't good enough and it absolutely IS.

I've watched dozens of games of ALL of these guys. There are some high-quality prospects in this class, better than most of the guys that last couple of years not name Luck or Griffin.

htismaqe
02-13-2013, 09:49 PM
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout

If Jadeveon Clowney were somehow allowed into 2013 NFL draft, the #Chiefs would have an easy decision to make. He's a defensive Andrew Luck.

Matt Miller.

ROFL

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:49 PM
It's like Lord of the Flies in here. The mention of Jadaveon Clowney has caused loyal Genoteers to morph into True Fans.

CLOWNEY ZOMBIE PLAGUE OUTBREAK

http://www.hcpress.com/img/zombies.jpg

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:50 PM
Miller just said on Twitter that Lane Johnson, the 3rd best OT in this class, compares to Joe Staley.


Yet he wants the Chiefs to take Joeckel at 1.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:52 PM
I just told Matt Miller WHAT'S UP

Red Dawg
02-13-2013, 09:52 PM
It's like Lord of the Flies in here. The mention of Jadaveon Clowney has caused loyal Genoteers to morph into True Fans.

CLOWNEY ZOMBIE PLAGUE OUTBREAK

http://www.hcpress.com/img/zombies.jpg

Hahaha. Good one. I am still all Geno. Clowny is not in the draft so who cares.

MotherfuckerJones
02-13-2013, 09:52 PM
I didnt morph into a Clowney guy just saying he'd be hard to pass up.

milkman
02-13-2013, 09:53 PM
that qb is so clutch they missed the playoffs.

Clutch QBs don't come through in every clutch situation.

With Eli, you know you always have a chance.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:53 PM
I just told Matt Miller WHAT'S UP

I saw that, he just fired back with "the best team wins". Hit him up with the Ravens this year, or whoever.

MotherfuckerJones
02-13-2013, 09:54 PM
Matt Millers a douchebag

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:55 PM
Clay, ask him how much Joeckel "donated" to bleacher report.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 09:56 PM
Colin Kaepernick would go #1 overall.

Thanks you made my point the first QB taken isnt always the best.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 09:57 PM
Fuck you, Matt Miller.

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:58 PM
He just owned you Clay. WTF

MagicHef
02-13-2013, 09:58 PM
Hmm. How good is Clowney?

I wouldn't trade Von for Geno.

Bewbies
02-13-2013, 09:58 PM
Thanks you made my point the first QB taken isnt always the best.

Someone put a list up not long ago, something like 80% of the time the #1 QB taken is....

O.city
02-13-2013, 09:59 PM
Thanks you made my point the first QB taken isnt always the best.

Not always, but chances are better.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 10:00 PM
Fucking twitter wars, man. I've gone insane.

O.city
02-13-2013, 10:01 PM
Well, Clay is the reason we hate the internet.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 10:05 PM
I'm going to tweet to Matt Miller for every TD Geno throws this season.

IT'S ON NOW, BLEACHER BITCH

Coogs
02-13-2013, 10:09 PM
Hahaha. Good one. I am still all Geno. Clowny is not in the draft so who cares.

Get them both. If this happens, it would probably drag out past the draft anyway. Geno in the regular draft. Clowney in the supplemental draft. Win-win.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 10:12 PM
It's kinda fun being the pied piper, though.

KChiefer
02-13-2013, 10:13 PM
Hmm. How good is Clowney?

I wouldn't trade Von for Geno.

You would if you were still rockin' Tebow.

Pablo
02-13-2013, 10:30 PM
that qb is so clutch they missed the playoffs.

Moron.

Titty Meat
02-13-2013, 10:42 PM
Not always, but chances are better.

Look im for drafting Geno Smith especially with the current crop of guys but if Clowney were to enter that changes. I still think Barkley, Wilson, and even Glennon in the right situation could all be good QB's.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 10:44 PM
Look im for drafting Geno Smith especially with the current crop of guys but if Clowney were to enter that changes. I still think Barkley, Wilson, and even Glennon in the right situation could all be good QB's.

If we can give Hali and Houston some breathers, that could really make us a championship team.

Sure-Oz
02-13-2013, 10:50 PM
If he's in the draft, would that change anyone's opinion it's Geno or bust?

Yes...i'd take him in a heartbeat

mikey23545
02-13-2013, 10:52 PM
Jim Kelly threw for 35k, he win any SBs?


He didn't win any of them. If a player took this team to 4 SBs and lost all of them they'd be thought of worse than the kicker that shall go unnamedt.




Absolutely not.

The Bills are such a statistical outlier it's not even really worth using them as an example for anything...other than drafting a 1st round QB = a lot of god damn sustained success if you hit.

Dan Marino threw for 60,000 yards...How many Super Bowls did he win?

O.city
02-13-2013, 11:03 PM
Look im for drafting Geno Smith especially with the current crop of guys but if Clowney were to enter that changes. I still think Barkley, Wilson, and even Glennon in the right situation could all be good QB's.

Sure.

But thats when you risk running into none of them being available potentially.

I would probably take Clowney and just hope a guy fell or try and trade back up. But thats not likely a scenario that would happen.

Dr. Gigglepants
02-13-2013, 11:12 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>@<a href="https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout">nfldraftscout</a> Do not disagree one bit. Clowney would be a no-brainer. Such a dominate player.</p>&mdash; Nick Jacobs (@Jacobs71) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/301905049251086336">February 14, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

ugh, this guy is on tv.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
GOD DAMMIT NICK.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
You should known how to use "dominate" and "dominant" before proceeding in such matters.

tony77
02-13-2013, 11:21 PM
Why? I mean he could just drop out hold open workouts for teams. Im sure he could make it through a tryout if hes that good.

RealSNR
02-13-2013, 11:49 PM
@nfldraftscout Do not disagree one bit. Dorsey Berry Clowney would be a no-brainer. Such a dominate player.

Hammock Parties
02-13-2013, 11:51 PM
"defensive Andrew Luck"

LMAO

The more I read that, the more it sounds like a really dumb thing to say about a physical freak, who plays a position where he relies almost solely on his athletic ability, and who is 20 years old.

RealSNR
02-13-2013, 11:51 PM
The Chiefs defense has got to be getting pretty fucking good by this point. We've got all these no-brainer consensus best defensive players on the team.

Building a defense sure is hard work. All these sure things we drafted on defense and we STILL need Clowney! Gosh, I don't know how other teams without our draft resources do it!

RealSNR
02-14-2013, 12:03 AM
Are people this fucking stupid? These "no-brainer" players on defense come out every fucking year. One's a linebacker, one's a lineman, one's a defensive back, etc.

If the dude is a once-in-10-years player but he's not a QB, chances are he's actually NOT a once-in-10-years player. How often do these special talents actually reach their full potential? Rarely ever.

I could not give any less of a shit about Jadeveon Clowney. Not until we get a real QB in town.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 12:18 AM
Let's take a look at the no brainer defenders taken super super high in recent years:


Von Miller - awesome player. Lost to Joe Flacco because he didn't have enough impact on the game to win it.

Ndamukong Suh - LOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

Eric Berry - Has been completely at the mercy of Matt Cassel.

Chris Long - Swallowed by the St. Louis Sarlacc, where he will learn a new definition of pain and suffering over a thousand years.

Glenn Dorsey - welp.

Mario Williams - Changed a shitty defense into a shitty defense with an expensive DE.

Julius Peppers - Legitimately a great player who played on several good teams and probably had a bigger impact on the team than Jake Delhomme. Never won a SB because he had a bigger impact on the team than Jake Delhomme.

Courtney Brown - Taco John's bane. Played on TWO winning teams, one which was the team that traded for him.

LaVar Arrington - Claim to fame was making Troy Aikman's brain bleed. Played on ONE winning team.

Andre Wadsworth - I think he was touted as another can't miss guy but my memory gets fuzzy here. But I know he was terrible.

Charles Woodson - A probable hall of fame CB who should thank his lucky stars he teamed up with Aaron Rodgers to win a Super Bowl. Also teamed up with another HOF QB to get his ass beat in the SB.

Dan Wilkinson - You're a pretty BAMF if you're the #1 pick and a DT. I mean you must be like six Tyson Jacksons put together. It sure helped the Bengals.

Steve Emtman - Who the fuck is Steve Emtman, man?

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 12:21 AM
If we can give Hali and Houston some breathers, that could really make us a championship team.

Your opinion on draft prospects means literally nothing. Again you don't even watch college football and all we need to do is pull up your comments from the 2011 draft to remind us that you are a blowhard.

AussieChiefsFan
02-14-2013, 12:22 AM
Your opinion on draft prospects means literally nothing. Again you don't even watch college football and all we need to do is pull up your comments from the 2011 draft to remind us that you are a blowhard.:spock:

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 12:24 AM
Your opinion on draft prospects means literally nothing. Again you don't even watch college football and all we need to do is pull up your comments from the 2011 draft to remind us that you are a blowhard.

Literally everyone here was jizzing their shorts over the 2011 draft. I do watch college football (a long time ago I didn't, but whatever, that doesn't mean shit now).

If you think taking a fucking DE over a potential franchise QB is the answer for this team you are as dumb as Barry. Jadaveon Clowney is a nice young man with superior athletic skills who moves us NO CLOSER to a Super Bowl until we have a QB.

KCrockaholic
02-14-2013, 12:24 AM
Clowney probably turns out be a star with potential to be like Peppers. That means nothing to me unless he can play QB.

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 12:29 AM
Literally everyone here was jizzing their shorts over the 2011 draft. I do watch college football (a long time ago I didn't, but whatever, that doesn't mean shit now).

If you think taking a ****ing DE over a potential franchise QB is the answer for this team you are as dumb as Barry. Jadaveon Clowney is a nice young man with superior athletic skills who moves us NO CLOSER to a Super Bowl until we have a QB.

Or you can get both in the same draft.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 12:32 AM
Or you can get both in the same draft.

Oh, yeah. Because that would totally happen in the 2nd round for us. Play those low odds!

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 12:44 AM
Oh, yeah. Because that would totally happen in the 2nd round for us. Play those low odds!

lol it has to be in the 2nd round? Teams can't trade up? This coach staff has proven they can't develop a QB?


Get real. This is Geno nut hugging at it's finest.

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 12:44 AM
Oh, yeah. Because that would totally happen in the 2nd round for us. Play those low odds!

lol it has to be in the 2nd round? Teams can't trade up? This coaching staff has proven they can't develop a QB?


Get real. This is Geno nut hugging at it's finest.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 12:52 AM
Now we're going to trade UP for one of these shitty non-Geno QBs? I've heard it all.

RealSNR
02-14-2013, 12:53 AM
lol it has to be in the 2nd round? Teams can't trade up? This coaching staff has proven they can't develop a QB?


Get real. This is Geno nut hugging at it's finest.

This coaching staff can develop a QB until the good ones are gone.

How is Kansas City supposed to know when teams in the first round start to get scared and begin picking guys? What if we took Clowney in this alternate universe where he's draft eligible, and all the QB needy teams in the top 10 panicked? Do we spend out the ass to get back into the top 10 so we can get the Wilson/Barkley leftovers, or do we hope they fall a bit further?

If the answer is "wait for Nassib or Glennon" then fuck you and fuck Clowney.

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 01:00 AM
Now we're going to trade UP for one of these shitty non-Geno QBs? I've heard it all.

Barkley will prove you wrong

Easy 6
02-14-2013, 01:02 AM
Not going to read alla that.

Aint got time

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2013, 01:06 AM
Literally everyone here was jizzing their shorts over the 2011 draft. I do watch college football (a long time ago I didn't, but whatever, that doesn't mean shit now).

If you think taking a fucking DE over a potential franchise QB is the answer for this team you are as dumb as Barry. Jadaveon Clowney is a nice young man with superior athletic skills who moves us NO CLOSER to a Super Bowl until we have a QB.

Super Bowl?

ROFL

This is going to be a fun Spring.

Super Bowl.

ROFL

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2013, 01:07 AM
Clowney probably turns out be a star with potential to be like Peppers. That means nothing to me unless he can play QB.

Yeah, because it would just fucking suck ass to draft Clowney in 2013 and a QB in 2014.

That sounds horrible.

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 01:10 AM
Yeah, because it would just ****ing suck ass to draft Clowney in 2013 and a QB in 2014.

That sounds horrible.

Dane if we don't draft a QB now we never will

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2013, 01:12 AM
Dane if we don't draft a QB now we never will

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Oh, and the Chiefs will also lose half their fan base if they don't draft one first overall.

:facepalm:

Titty Meat
02-14-2013, 01:13 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot.

Oh, and the Chiefs will also lose half their fan base if they don't draft one first overall.

:facepalm:

We're only a QB and a DT away from being a super bowl champion ROFL

Unsmooth-Moment
02-14-2013, 02:02 AM
:spock:

I do not understand this response

Unsmooth-Moment
02-14-2013, 02:04 AM
I am all for Geno. But if Clowney was eligible, I'd grab him and Tyler Wilson with my first 2 picks.

The Bad Guy
02-14-2013, 05:53 AM
I've said this before.

That catch was not spectacular.

That was a well placed throw that Tyree almost dropped.

If he hadn't misplayed that ball, the actual spectacular part of that play, eli breaking out of a sack and finding Tyree, would be the topic of discussion.

It's team sport, but the Giants don' win without clutch QB play.

He threw up a duck while in the grasp and the guy caught it with his helmet. In any other play, that's called in the grasp and the play is over.

I love your takes on here, but this isn't one of them. Calling that a well placed throw is just wow.

The Giants defense held the best offense of all time to 14 points.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 06:57 AM
He threw up a duck while in the grasp and the guy caught it with his helmet. In any other play, that's called in the grasp and the play is over.

I love your takes on here, but this isn't one of them. Calling that a well placed throw is just wow.

The Giants defense held the best offense of all time to 14 points.

So where we getting our QB? Second round? You comfortable with that? Based on the evaluations of this QB class we could be picking a prospect in the realm of Kellen Clemens in the 2nd round this year.

Fuck that shit. We have a lethal dose of outside pass rushing talent on this team. Jadaveon Clowney takes us from a good pass rush to a great pass rush...well we had that for MOST OF THE 90s and it got us a lot of season ticket renewals and fuck all else. And that was with COMPETENT QB play.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 06:59 AM
Yeah, because it would just fucking suck ass to draft Clowney in 2013 and a QB in 2014.

That sounds horrible.

The QB class is in 2014 is even worse than this one.

So you'll be right there saying "there is no way we can draft a QB this year! too risky!"

mr. tegu
02-14-2013, 06:59 AM
I am all for Geno. But if Clowney was eligible, I'd grab him and Tyler Wilson with my first 2 picks.

How does one team get two of the first 5-7 picks?

Pasta Little Brioni
02-14-2013, 07:03 AM
I'd still take Geno, but I could understand why they'd consider Clowney. He's not like these flawed non-QB's currently available. *gasp*

Chiefs=Champions
02-14-2013, 07:06 AM
I am all for Geno. But if Clowney was eligible, I'd grab him and Tyler Wilson with my first 2 picks.

This isn't madden. Wilson will be gone by pick 10.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 07:10 AM
20 years of 2nd round QBs:

Brock Osweiler
Andy Dalton
Colin Kaepernick
Jim Clausen
Pat White
Brian Brohm
Chad Henne
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Kellen Clemens
Tardvaris Jackson
Drew Brees
Quincy Carter
Marques Tuiasosopo
Shaun King
Charlie Batch
Jake Plummer
Tony Banks
Todd Collins
Kordell Stewart
Matt Blundin

4 guys out of 22 who might be considered worthy of leading an NFL franchise. One of whom won a Super Bowl. NONE of whom won a Super Bowl with the team that drafted him.

Fuck. That.

Take a quarterback in the first round or GTFO.

DaKCMan AP
02-14-2013, 07:11 AM
The QB class is in 2014 is even worse than this one.


Not really.


Let DaKCMan AP shed some Awesome light on this thread:

1. Jadeveon Clowney is a once in a decade type prospect. His size, athleticism, motor, and polish is ridiculous. The last DE to rate as highly as he will is probably Julius Peppers in 2002.

2. As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter how great Clowney is if we don't have a QB.

3. Clowney isn't eligible this year, so any argument of 2013 QB vs. Clowney is moot.

Pasta Little Brioni
02-14-2013, 07:12 AM
ROFL at people thinking Wilson will be available in Round 2. STOP LISTENING TO KIPER!!

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 07:19 AM
You can also "appeal to QB authority Andy Reid" as much as you like. Marv Levy drafted Todd Collins. Bill Parcells drafted Chad Henne. Dorsey's front office picked Brohm. And Reid picked Kolb.

Yah-fucking-hooty.

the Talking Can
02-14-2013, 07:20 AM
once we have 9 first round picks in the defensive front seven we'll win a superbowl

DaKCMan AP
02-14-2013, 07:23 AM
You can also "appeal to QB authority Andy Reid" as much as you like. Marv Levy drafted Todd Collins. Bill Parcells drafted Chad Henne. Dorsey's front office picked Brohm. And Reid picked Kolb.

Yah-fucking-hooty.

And you were a Cassel-lover back in 2009, so STFU. You are terrible at player evaluation.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 07:24 AM
And you were a Cassel-lover back in 2009, so STFU. You are terrible at player evaluation.

Do you disagree with the 20-year history of 2nd round QBs?

There is no reason for this team to pass on a first-round QB, including Reggie White reincarnated.

DaKCMan AP
02-14-2013, 07:27 AM
Do you disagree with the 20-year history of 2nd round QBs?

There is no reason for this team to pass on a first-round QB, including Reggie White reincarnated.

I'm not saying we should pass on a 1st round QB. I've posted several times over past years that we need to take a QB in the 1st round.

What I'm pointing out is that your evaluations are garbage. I also stated (10 minutes ago) that, while Clowney is Awesome, it doesn't matter if we need a QB.

Lex Luthor
02-14-2013, 07:28 AM
Matt Cassel Leinart Barkley will prove you wrong
FYP

I'm not thrilled about the idea of getting another USC quarterback named Matt, especially one coming off a shoulder injury. USC does not have a good history of sending good quarterbacks to the NFL.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 07:35 AM
I'm not saying we should pass on a 1st round QB. I've posted several times over past years that we need to take a QB in the 1st round.

What I'm pointing out is that your evaluations are garbage. I also stated (10 minutes ago) that, while Clowney is Awesome, it doesn't matter if we need a QB.

So you have no point relevant to the discussion.

DaKCMan AP
02-14-2013, 07:40 AM
So you have no point relevant to the discussion.

Sure, I do. If you can't read that's your problem.

Point 1: Directly relevant to the thread

Let DaKCMan AP shed some Awesome light on this thread:

1. Jadeveon Clowney is a once in a decade type prospect. His size, athleticism, motor, and polish is ridiculous. The last DE to rate as highly as he will is probably Julius Peppers in 2002.

2. As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter how great Clowney is if we don't have a QB.

3. Clowney isn't eligible this year, so any argument of 2013 QB vs. Clowney is moot.

Point 2: Response to you calling out NFL evaluators when you, yourself, are beyond terrible.

You can also "appeal to QB authority Andy Reid" as much as you like. Marv Levy drafted Todd Collins. Bill Parcells drafted Chad Henne. Dorsey's front office picked Brohm. And Reid picked Kolb.

Yah-fucking-hooty.

Hammock Parties
02-14-2013, 07:42 AM
I'm glad that we agree and are both awesome.

htismaqe
02-14-2013, 08:03 AM
Thanks you made my point the first QB taken isnt always the best.

Your point is bogus.

With the benefit of hindsight, the best QB is ALWAYS the #1 guy off the board.

Which means anyone with ONE OUNCE of vision would be taking the #1 QB on their board with their first pick 100% of the time.