Late night bullshit: A "smart guy's" sport.

[Direckshun]

I had a big conversation with a baseball fan about smart guy sports.

There was really a whole table of us. I am a believer that football is a smart guy's sport. There are 22 different positions, and most of them have different variations and techniques.

There was a baseball guy at the table, and another dude argued soccer, but didn't really have a good argument for it. Someone else mentioned golf, but I think that's pretty damn simple, too.

What's the smart guy sport, to you?

I say football. Others say baseball. Thoughts?

[KC native]

Forumla 1 /thread

[Simply Red]

This is going to be a massive thread - you will conquer fools - before it's all over. Shunin' the nation!

[Cephalic Trauma]

I had a big conversation with a baseball fan about smart guy sports.

There was really a whole table of us. I am a believer that football is a smart guy's sport. There are 22 different positions, and most of them have different variations and techniques.

There was a baseball guy at the table, and another dude argued soccer, but didn't really have a good argument for it. Someone else mentioned golf, but I think that's pretty damn simple, too.

What's the smart guy sport, to you?

I say football. Others say baseball. Thoughts?

Sex

[Simply Red]

& I LIKE IT!

[Sorter]

Football IMO.

[Reaper16]

Soccer and football are about equal to me in terms of tactical understanding. Football has an edge on different body types as it relates to different positions.

Baseball is third to me. It's a mathematician's sport, but not all smart guys are mathematically inclined.

[RedDread]

Baseball is a smart guy's sport, but its smart guys behind the scenes and coaches, the ones doing the scouting reports, crunching the numbers, determining the right play in the right situations. When you see a player come up to bat they haven't seen before and the manager goes to a binder, that tells you what you need to know about baseball. The players can be dumb as bricks.

Cricket players mebe?

[AussieChiefsFan]

I would say Football, but I don't really have much experience with sports like Baseball, Basketball, Hockey. I've played soccer and you can't be a complete dumbass, but I'd definitely say Football, especially for the QB. A Quarterback probably has the most mentally challenging position of any sport.

[ClevelandBronco]

Why the hell would a really smart guy follow sports at all?

[tk13]

Well given you asked this on a football forum, I can guess what the answers are going to be. Hard to say though. You can win a football game through brute force. Winning a game by physically dominating your opponent is more common in football. There are lots of little nuances in both football and baseball the average fan never picks up on.

[Ming the Merciless]

chessboxing

[Sorter]

chessboxing

I'd pay for a PPV of chessboxing.

[Direckshun]

LMAO

I would too.

How has that not taken off?

[keg in kc]

Football to me is the ultimate team sport (at least at the pro level). The kind of coordination that it involves is just insane, as opposed to sports like basketball (which I hate) or baseball (which I love). There is still a one-on-one aspect to the game, individuals making plays, but 99.9999999% of the time those highlight plays are the result of 10 guys doing something to get the 11th guy free.

In baseball, in the end it almost always boils down to the pitcher versus the batter, and then the batter/baserunner against an individual fielder. Many plays you'll have 2 guys touch the ball, sometimes 3 or more. But it's generally, talking about the defensive side of it, always about executing the same exact set of moves, dependent on the situation. It's not rocket science, and it never has been.

Basketball I won't talk about because I don't really watch it, and couldn't give it a fair summation....

I think with football, in a lot of ways you think of it as these big dumb jocks playing a game, but, especially now-a-days, there's a real chess-like quality to it. About putting guys into positions, and creating opportunities, often by setting things up early in the game that don't get exploited until (much) later. Playbooks with hundreds of plays, offenses trying to outthink defense, who try in turn to outthink them right back. It's not just about strength and speed, although they're always going to be a major part of it.

It's really cool.

[Direckshun]

Tell you what, Flopnuts and I live near each other.

If CP raises enough money and donate it to charity, I will chessbox him for this website's entertainment.

[Sorter]

LMAO

I would too.

How has that not taken off?

Whoever takes an opponent's piece gets a free strike?

OMG, we have to develop this sport and send it in to Japan. They'll make it happen.

[ChiefAshhole20]

There is some straight dumbasses playing in the NFL, so I dont know if it would be considered a "smart guy's" game. Honestly if we are talking about needing straight knowledge of the game and one that is constantly working your mind/psyche its definitely golf. That shit is so much harder than people seem to think, and even though John Daly wasn't exactly one of the brightest minds you'd ever come across, almost all the professional golfers look like they could fill out one hell of an income statement. And soccer can suck it.

[Sorter]

Tell you what, Flopnuts and I live near each other.

If CP raises enough money and donate it to charity, I will chessbox him for this website's entertainment.

If you can start cursing excessively, you can be the Dana of the Chessboxing Ultimate Championships.

You don't need to shave your head though.

[RealSNR]

It depends on how far you want to delve into the game as a fan.

Donger has claimed on this forum to not know how a guard functions in an offensive line. He pleads complete ignorance on the topic, and has said he doesn't and will never bother with learning the game to a slightly reasonable benchmark that should be understood as a fan of the game. But nonetheless, he still gets by; he is able to watch a Chiefs game and have fun.

I think certain sports like basketball are easier to have a Donger-like level of knowledge yet still understand what's happening. You don't need to be able to spot a pick-and-roll to enjoy a basketball game. It's full of exciting moments and is fast-moving enough.

Baseball can be just as "dumb" as basketball in that the basic rules of the game are almost ingrained into our DNA. But if you want to get really deep, it's almost got the most potential for being a smart guy sport than anything else.

[AussieChiefsFan]

There is some straight dumbasses playing in the NFL, so I dont know if it would be considered a "smart guy's" game. Honestly if we are talking about needing straight knowledge of the game and one that is constantly working your mind/psyche its definitely golf. That shit is so much harder than people seem to think, and even though John Daly wasn't exactly one of the brightest minds you'd ever come across, almost all the professional golfers look like they could fill out one hell of an income statement. And soccer can suck it.Very true. I guess it can also vary from position to position. An O-Lineman or QB would have to be much smarter than the average Defensive player.

[Sorter]

Additionally, Dane can be our Lorenzo Fertitta

[Simply Red]

It depends on how far you want to delve into the game as a fan.

Donger has claimed on this forum to not know how a guard functions in an offensive line. He pleads complete ignorance on the topic, and has said he doesn't and will never bother with learning the game to a slightly reasonable benchmark that should be understood as a fan of the game. But nonetheless, he still gets by; he is able to watch a Chiefs game and have fun.

I think certain sports like basketball are easier to have a Donger-like level of knowledge yet still understand what's happening. You don't need to be able to spot a pick-and-roll to enjoy a basketball game. It's full of exciting moments and is fast-moving enough.

Baseball can be just as "dumb" as basketball in that the basic rules of the game are almost ingrained into our DNA. But if you want to get really deep, it's almost got the most potential for being a smart guy sport than anything else.



I think Donger may'be left forever, I've not seen him since I've come back from quitting forever. I miss DongerTroll a lot.

[Direckshun]

Whoever takes an opponent's piece gets a free strike?

OMG, we have to develop this sport and send it in to Japan. They'll make it happen.

Have you never heard of chessboxing?

You each play a timed round on the chessboard, then you play a timed round in the ring.

Rinse and repeat, until there's either a checkmate or a (T)KO.

[wazu]

I'll give the nod to football, but with a qualifier...

Baseball is a lot harder to learn/teach. Players have to know where to go with the ball, have awareness, and make split second decisions that show they know the situation. With football, unless you are the QB, you have a pretty scripted something to do on offense, and on defense maybe have 2 or 3 things to think about. In baseball, you can have any combination of outs/baserunners/strikes/balls/score, and when that ball comes off the bat it can literally go anywhere.

Football gets the nod at top levels because the plays, designs, coverages, etc are so much more complex and game-deciding. But in baseball if you are a dumbass you will be exposed constantly.

[Sorter]

Have you never heard of chessboxing?

You each play a timed round on the chessboard, then you play a timed round in the ring.

Rinse and repeat, until there's either a checkmate or a (T)KO.

Holy shit, it's actually real.

Wow. No, I had never heard of it. We need to get on this regardless. ChessMMA would take off fairly quickly as well IMO.

[griZZly64]

Every sport is a smart mans sport. If you add some intelligence in with talent you have a hell of a player.

[Direckshun]

How about this:

Baseball is harder to learn how to play.

Football is harder to learn how to deeply understand.

[Ming the Merciless]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TJy2kIWtyvQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RealSNR]

I think Donger may'be left forever, I've not seen him since I've come back from quitting forever. I miss DongerTroll a lot.

Were you around for Donger v. chiefs4me?

Good times. Good times.

[Direckshun]

Where the hell is SNR from?

I'll chessbox him. I've been wanting to knock his block off for several weeks now.

[tk13]

How about this:

Baseball is harder to learn how to play.

Football is harder to learn how to deeply understand.

I think even that's debatable. There are layers and layers of strategy that go into baseball. Most people don't think about it while they're sitting there scarfing down nachos. Yeah you can try to boil it down to the pitcher and batter matchup, which is an entire essay by itself... matchups, pitch counts, pitch arsenal, batter strengths, available relief pitchers/pinch hitters... and on and on. Even then, managers will line the defenders up across the field based on hit charts of each player. And from there, those adjustments may change depending on the count, who is on base, what base they are on, the game score and situation, the pitcher on the mound, the weather, field dimensions.

[Simply Red]

I think I do remember that - I'm not sure i visited it, SNR. I think I only heard it discussed. Was this the poster he had a crush on, or am I totally off...?

[RealSNR]

Where the hell is SNR from?

I'll chessbox him. I've been wanting to knock his block off for several weeks now.

Wisconsin.

I've been in one fight my entire life, but you could say that I "won" it. At least I think so.

Of course, that was in 5th grade, and a few things have changed. But whatever. My chess skills will win the day.

[RealSNR]

I think I do remember that - I'm not sure i visited it, SNR. I think I only heard it discussed. Was this the poster he had a crush on, or am I totally off...?

I too am fuzzy on it, but I know she was "commatard" who used multiple commas as elipses (,,, instead of ...)

I also know that he fucking loathed her. Was pretty funny to watch him aggressively ask questions at her.

[ChiefAshhole20]

How about this:

Baseball is harder to learn how to play.

Football is harder to learn how to deeply understand.

I'd still say golf is harder than both of those sports in each of those aspects.

[Simply Red]

He's basically Simon Cowell, let's face it.

[Cephalic Trauma]

I think we can say with certainty that the smartest man to invent a sport was the man who came up with mud/KY wrestling.

[Simply Red]

I tend to lean basketball - with that said; there are chock full of variables and with most all sports you could fairly easily 'make the case.' I'd have to say there's not one true 'clear cut' leader, here.

That's my final opinion on it...

[Exoter175]

I grew up playing Football, Baseball, Soccer, Basketball, and Golf.

Without a doubt, Golf is the most intellectual of them all.

Before you even touch on the technical knowledge of the game, how to swing, aim, hit a certain shot, etc. You get into this mental boxing match with yourself, in a constant bout of when to "go for it" when to play it safe, and the self pressure you put on yourself when you're playing well, and when you aren't playing well.

That being said, most, if not all of you will disagree with me on Golf because it is one of the most accessible sports that "anyone" can play, and ignore the fact that in order to equally argue the point for any sport, the sport must be played within the confines of competition, and in this case, a golf tournament to compare to a single game of baseball, basketball, or football.

If I had to rank them, it would go like this.

Golf
Football
Soccer
Basketball
Baseball

With a fairly large gap between tournament Golf, and any level of competition in Football.

IMO, though ,its impossible to compare team sports to individual sports.

[Direckshun]

Why do people argue that soccer is complex?

I've played soccer my whole life. Always came really simple to me.

[Exoter175]

Why do people argue that soccer is complex?

I've played soccer my whole life. Always came really simple to me.

Came simple to me too, because I'm smart and used my head to outmaneuver players who were faster than me.

IMO Soccer takes a larger degree of restraint and refinement than any team sport, and takes quite a bit of training and athleticism too.

[Ming the Merciless]

How about this:

Baseball is harder to learn how to play.

Football is harder to learn how to deeply understand.

I pretty much agree:

I think if you use the terms tactics & strategy & techniques, there almost has to be more tactics and strategy in football.

The techniques involved in baseball might be a little harder / require to learn, so I do agree.. mostly...but blocking and tackling require learning proper technique also.

Strategy-wise (big picture game planning) I think it could be close also....run game / solid defense/ ball control being an example of a strategy a team might employ in football..........'small ball' being thre eqivolent maybe in base ball...bunting, stealing, 1 run....and good pitching/D.
There are probably more types of strategies in football, so yah....football wins by a little there too.

Tactics it isnt even close.......football BLOWS away baseball...and most other sports by having an almost infinite number of offensive and defensive tactics. chess, bridge & go all have this, but are not sports.......

do a google on 'chess tactics quotes' and you will see that the vast majority of chess masters agree that tactics is the number one element of chess...the heart, soul....

it is the same with football IMO

In general I consider that in chess everything rests on tactics. If one thinks of strategy as a block of marble, then tactics are the chisel with which a master operates, in creating works of chess art.-------- Grandmaster Petrosian

[Simply Red]

Why do people argue that soccer is complex?

I've played soccer my whole life. Always came really simple to me.


Silock would pick your pocket and then point and laugh and then he'd flex as he danced on down the field and nutmegged your goalie.

[Direckshun]

I played defense my entire life in soccer, and when I watch cornerbacks play wide receivers...

The entire secondary battle, between receivers and defensive backs? That's all soccer spacing. The assignments, the zones... that's all soccer, in terms of spacing and coverage strategies and players trying to get open. That's 100% soccer.

Only difference is the ball.

[Direckshun]

Silock invited me to play with him when I lived up in KC.

I never had the opportunity to join, and it sounds like I got lucky because he and his friends sound like stud athletes.

[Exoter175]

I played defense my entire life in soccer, and when I watch cornerbacks play wide receivers...

The entire secondary battle, between receivers and defensive backs? That's all soccer spacing. The assignments, the zones... that's all soccer, in terms of spacing and coverage strategies and players trying to get open. That's 100% soccer.

Only difference is the ball.

Most would argue that its actually a closer comparison to Rugby.

[tk13]

The problem with golf is you're just competing against yourself. Of course some people would say that's why it's the toughest. But in other sports you are having to anticipate and react to an opponent's move. But in the end golf is more patience and self discipline.

[Ming the Merciless]

Without a doubt, Golf is the most intellectual of them all.


I disagree. yes, I think golf is INTERNAL ...a game against the self....but it is more like zen or meditation than thinking...


as a matter of fact...

thinking will kill your golf game

nothing will kill your golf game more than thought

golf is more spiritual than mental...by far

[Direckshun]

I don't see the rugby comparison. Maybe the scrums compare to line of scrimmage play, but even then, not really.

[Exoter175]

I disagree. yes, I think golf is INTERNAL ...a game against the self....but it is more like zen or meditation than thinking...


as a matter of fact...

thinking will kill your golf game

nothing will kill your golf game more than thought

golf is more spiritual than mental...by far

And thus, the far more intellectual sport.

More thought goes into the planning of a round, hole by hole, alone, than will go through your head playing any of the sports I mentioned.

I"m just being honest about it, as I've played at a competitive level in all 5 sports, Golf was the most nerve wracking, most up and down emotionally, and most intellectual for me. Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, all became second nature to me, I rarely had to think by comparison.

In Golf, 98% of your time is spent thinking.

[Exoter175]

I don't see the rugby comparison. Maybe the scrums compare to line of scrimmage play, but even then, not really.

They do, and a lot of the actions are similar.

[Direckshun]

They do, and a lot of the actions are similar.

Well I guess I'll have to take your word for it?

There is not a lot of time spent in rubgy "covering" someone. There's not a lot of time in rugby spent running routes or getting open. Everything is team formation vs. team formation. There are no forward passes in rugby, right? Unlike soccer and football, where that's the whole idea to advance the ball, thus necessitating all the downfield coverage and route-running. That's all soccer and football.

[Simply Red]

Silock invited me to play with him when I lived up in KC.

I never had the opportunity to join, and it sounds like I got lucky because he and his friends sound like stud athletes.

yeah same w/ these dudes downstairs - they too would battle ax my head in a game of soccer -- their gear is always out on the patio - they always come home in jerseys. Just soccer junkies, It's ok, I'm about to transform into Bruce Jenner back in his heyday, soon. So I will take back my pool this summer, I'll take back what's mine & I have to admit; I'm excited about that. just got the latest Mizuno model runner.

[Direckshun]

yeah same w/ these dudes downstairs - they too would battle ax my head in a game of soccer -- their gear is always out on the patio - they always come home in jerseys. Just soccer junkies, It's ok, I'm about to transform into Bruce Jenner back in his heyday, soon. So I will take back my pool this summer, I'll take back what's mine & I have to admit; I'm excited about that. just got the latest Mizuno model runner.

I swear to god, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Simply Red]

I swear to god, I have no idea what you're talking about.

that's fine - i'm totally okay with that.

[Ming the Merciless]

And thus, the far more intellectual sport.

More thought goes into the planning of a round, hole by hole, alone, than will go through your head playing any of the sports I mentioned.

I"m just being honest about it, as I've played at a competitive level in all 5 sports, Golf was the most nerve wracking, most up and down emotionally, and most intellectual for me. Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, all became second nature to me, I rarely had to think by comparison.

In Golf, 98% of your time is spent thinking.


well, i disagree with your definition of intellectual....& thought/thinking

it is more about harmony and getting your swing right than actually planning, strategy,drawing up and executing plays etc...

it is much more about FEELING than thinking...........there is no comparison the study and play calling and changing plays based on what the opponent is doing....

i agree that 98% of golf is internal....I just do not consider it 'thinking' or 'intellectual' .....it requires zero thought or intellect other than maybe club selection or whether or not to lay up or power over.........

As i stated , i call that zen, or harmony or feeling rather than
'thinking' or 'intellectual'.....getting your swing right

Its very similar to a baseball swing IMO.... if you think about it, its going to get ruined....it just has to come naturally (which takes a LOT of practice swings!)

[lcarus]

Football, depending on the position, requires intelligence. I've seen some playbooks. Damn. You don't need frickin flash cards for baseball or basketball lol.

[Direckshun]

I think to play football requires little intelligence.

Learn the playbooks, fine. But most of the mechanics probably come second nature. Same with every sport.

I'm talking about as a spectator.

[Ming the Merciless]

I think to play football requires little intelligence.


maybe it depends on the position...

if youre talking about IQ.......take a complex position...linebacker....qb...center....


Lets look at it as decisions , like a basic computer measurement....what sport has more decisions that need to be made?

It has to be football, by far......

[BWillie]

Its definitely not baseball. Baseball is virtually a sport where the manager does not matter. Its definitely not basketball because its to player driven. So it has to be football....but...they probably have the dumbest players of any sport.

[Direckshun]

Probably football, yeah.

[lcarus]

maybe it depends on the position...

if youre talking about IQ.......take a complex position...linebacker....qb...center....


Lets look at it as decisions , like a basic computer measurement....what sport has more decisions that need to be made?

It has to be football, by far......

Agreed. As far as a spectator, I'd say to really understand football and what every position is supposed to be doing in different situations takes more brainpower than baseball, basketball, hockey, or soccer. I've been a hardcore football fan for my whole life, and there's still some stuff that I don't understand. When you talk about gaps, blocking schemes, defensive schemes...your average football fan has no idea what any of that shit means. And I'm certainly no expert on all of it either. It would have helped if I ever played organized football probably.

[Ming the Merciless]

I'm talking about as a spectator.

well as a spectator, i think the more you are familiar with THAT particular sport the 'better' you are at spectating......I don't think spectating really requires much intelligence........the rules of football/baseball are perhaps more complex than other games......but all games have nuances that need explanation to the uninitiated....

/shrug

[keg in kc]

well, i disagree with your definition of intellectual....& thought/thinking

it is more about harmony and getting your swing right than actually planning, strategy,drawing up and executing plays etc...

it is much more about FEELING than thinking...........there is no comparison the study and play calling and changing plays based on what the opponent is doing....

i agree that 98% of golf is internal....I just do not consider it 'thinking' or 'intellectual' .....it requires zero thought or intellect other than maybe club selection or whether or not to lay up or power over.........

As i stated , i call that zen, or harmony or feeling rather than
'thinking' or 'intellectual'.....getting your swing right

Its very similar to a baseball swing IMO.... if you think about it, its going to get ruined....it just has to come naturally (which takes a LOT of practice swings!)Sounds about right to me. Golf is about tons and tons of practice, until you learn what each of your clubs does for you, and until your swing is all muscle memory.

I think most of the intellectual side of the game is not doubting yourself and not second-guessing yourself. I also think people watch way too much PGA and spend way too much time "thinking" before their shots. I find it's often counter-productive.

But that's just my opinion, and I barely play these days.

I'm not sure that pool (billiards) doesn't involve more thinking in a strategy/shot selection sense than golf.

[lcarus]

well as a spectator, i think the more you are familiar with THAT particular sport the 'better' you are at spectating......I don't think spectating really requires much intelligence........the rules of football/baseball are perhaps more complex than other games......but all games have nuances that need explanation to the uninitiated....

/shrug

I have a friend who is really clueless when it comes to all sports. He's interested enough to watch with me when he comes over, and I'd definitely say I have to explain more things to him with football. He's the inquisitive type, and he certainly asks a lot more questions when we watch football compared to baseball or basketball.

[Ming the Merciless]

I think most of the intellectual side of the game is not doubting yourself and not second-guessing yourself. I also think people watch way too much PGA and spend way too much time "thinking" before their shots. I find it's often counter-productive.


exactly... i really wasn't trying to nit pick or split hairs.......golf is all about the internal/mental/battle against self ...... but to me its not the same as an intellectual affair...

I think a battle of intellect requires opposing ideas........in a sense football (like chess) is a battle of ideas....yours against another person's

Golf is more like overcoming nerves or being perfectly calm, or having perfect consistent mechanics.........battling your own mind/body.

[Ming the Merciless]

I have a friend who is really clueless when it comes to all sports. He's interested enough to watch with me when he comes over, and I'd definitely say I have to explain more things to him with football. He's the inquisitive type, and he certainly asks a lot more questions when we watch football compared to baseball or basketball.

well i am totally biased but to me football is a near perfect game for this reason 8-)

it really is deep....like chess...and like you said before...it goes deeper and deeper like gaps and zones and audibles etc....

you should check out some chess

LOL

[Exoter175]

Well I guess I'll have to take your word for it?

There is not a lot of time spent in rubgy "covering" someone. There's not a lot of time in rugby spent running routes or getting open. Everything is team formation vs. team formation. There are no forward passes in rugby, right? Unlike soccer and football, where that's the whole idea to advance the ball, thus necessitating all the downfield coverage and route-running. That's all soccer and football.

Sorry for the confusion, allow me to reiterate.

It is a fact that Football came from Rugby, in fact, there was a time in football where the Forward pass wasn't allowed, which makes everything you just said that differentiated the comparison, moot.

well, i disagree with your definition of intellectual....& thought/thinking

it is more about harmony and getting your swing right than actually planning, strategy,drawing up and executing plays etc...

it is much more about FEELING than thinking...........there is no comparison the study and play calling and changing plays based on what the opponent is doing....

i agree that 98% of golf is internal....I just do not consider it 'thinking' or 'intellectual' .....it requires zero thought or intellect other than maybe club selection or whether or not to lay up or power over.........

As i stated , i call that zen, or harmony or feeling rather than
'thinking' or 'intellectual'.....getting your swing right

Its very similar to a baseball swing IMO.... if you think about it, its going to get ruined....it just has to come naturally (which takes a LOT of practice swings!)

Competitive golf, which you seem to have failed to read in my post, is more than Zen or Harmony.

Just playing for the hell of it, takes no intellect like you've stated.

Playing in an attempt to meet par, break par, or to compete and beat everyone, on the other hand, requires a completely different analysis to look at the game.

Trust me when I say this, playing all of the sports I've mentioned, you'll never think more or be subject to nerves more, than in competitive Golf. It is a sport defined by the thought.

Arbitrarily saying that it requires little thought other than club selection is the most ignorant and stupid thing I've ever heard in regards to the game.

In order to make club selection alone you must factor in the elevation change from tee/fairway/position to green, wind, moisture, shot shape, whether you'll be making a full swing or a 3/4 swing, whether you're imparting maximum backspin at all, or which shot type you're going for.

All of that requires a very analytical mind to be GOOD at, to be COMPETITIVE at. There's already more thought in the club selection alone, than I've ever spent playing any of the other 5 sports.

Almost everything by comparison comes down to second nature training, in fact, most team sports try hard to remove all "analytical thought" from the game, except for in the occurrence of rare skill positions; Quarterbacks, Pitchers, Point Guards, etc.

I think to play football requires little intelligence.

Learn the playbooks, fine. But most of the mechanics probably come second nature. Same with every sport.

I'm talking about as a spectator.

You probably should have stated "As a spectator" loooooooooooong before you made this thread, and reiterated that point many times.

As a spectator, that's a hard one to define for "thinking".

What precisely are we trying to accomplish by "thinking" as a spectator?

Are we trying to anticipate play calling? General Outcomes? What?

[Simply Red]

I play video checkers, I'll admit it.

[Exoter175]

Sounds about right to me. Golf is about tons and tons of practice, until you learn what each of your clubs does for you, and until your swing is all muscle memory.

I think most of the intellectual side of the game is not doubting yourself and not second-guessing yourself. I also think people watch way too much PGA and spend way too much time "thinking" before their shots. I find it's often counter-productive.

But that's just my opinion, and I barely play these days.

I'm not sure that pool (billiards) doesn't involve more thinking in a strategy/shot selection sense than golf.


Apparently I'm going to have to keep score for those who can't read the part where I said "Competitive".

As for your comment that Pool might take more thinking or strategy on shot selection, I'm sorry to come off vulgar, but you're fucking stupid and clearly never played golf, golf well, or competitively. LMAO

[Exoter175]

exactly... i really wasn't trying to nit pick or split hairs.......golf is all about the internal/mental/battle against self ...... but to me its not the same as an intellectual affair...

I think a battle of intellect requires opposing ideas........in a sense football (like chess) is a battle of ideas....yours against another person's

Golf is more like overcoming nerves or being perfectly calm, or having perfect consistent mechanics.........battling your own mind/body.

And that's that's the mental game before the analytical game takes place.

Shot selection alone takes more analytical skills than any other game, period. Then you get into the planning of your round.

In competitive golf, or if you're just a really, really good golfer, you'll take the time ahead of your round to strategize how you will attack the course for that round. Every single shot, including shot types so that if you don't execute the shot, you'll have the highest percentage of bailing yourself out, etc.

I should just probably stop now.

It is becoming rapidly and abundantly clear now that none of you have ever played Golf well enough to play it competitively, and most of you suffer from a general lack of reading comprehension when it comes to reading the part where I said "competitive" in my reference to golf.

Forget the battle of your inner demons and Tin Cup/Happy Gilmore shenanigans about Zen and Harmony, that's only one aspect of the game, and one that is present from the first round. From there, simply learning how to hit a shot is more analytical than any other sport, because you need to master math and science to truly understand it.

Also, understand that when I say "hit a shot", I'm not talking about taking a swing at a ball. I'm talking about trying to hit a 189 yard draw, over a branch with 28 yards of draw, 13 feet above the green into a 13 mile an hour wind, on an incredibly dry day.

Not, "hey bob, hold my beer and watch me whack this".

I'm speaking from a competitive narrative only, as it is the only way to compare a team sport which can only be played in competition to an individual sport that can be played wherever and whenever.

[AussieChiefsFan]

As a spectator IMO it'd definitely be Football. The complexity of the rules and number of penalties etc makes it difficult to learn from scratch.

[mcan]

The philosophy of games (as per mcan)

Most games have at least an element of pure chance to them. Chance built into a game is what makes the game easier for a beginner to be successful. A game of PURE chance means that there are NO other considerations to the game (the card game WAR, Shoots and Ladders, The lotto, slot machines, etc...) None of these games require/allow decision making or execution of strategy by a player. They play their game, take their turn, roll their dice/spin a wheel, and follow the directions and rules to see what happens to them. Games of this nature, are simply and utterly nothing more than a glorified or complicated coin flip.

The two elements of a game that elevate the game past the 'pure chance' category are decision making, and execution of that decision making. These types of games are MUCH more interesting and rewarding for the player, and especially the winning the player. I will call these types of games "skill games."


There are THREE categories to consider about a skill game.


SKILL, ABILITY, STRATEGY

**There is a subtle difference between the way I mean "skill" above and the overall blanket term 'skill game.' The phrase "skill game" is only meant to connotate that the game is NOT a game of 'pure chance.' Traditionally, the colloquial term "skill" is used by poker players who have tried to convince lawmakers that poker should be made legal, and is not pure "gambling" as many house casino games are. I like this term, and use it here**

I use these terms as distinctly different things, loosely as follows:

"skill" is a learned and seasoned technique/behavior. Hitting a golf ball cleanly and making it go where you want it to go is a "skill."

"ability" is distinct from skill, because it is based on prowess. Hitting a golf ball farther, than someone else of comparable skill means you have the same skill, but more ability (in this case you are stronger or have a faster swing).

"strategy" is fairly self explanatory. It is the plan of action, whether that plan be made well in advance, or on the fly. (you plan to lay up onto the fairway instead of going for the green). In many games, you'll find that strategy is inversely related to luck/chance, if indeed the game still has any luck built into it.


With this foundation, the question "which game is more of a thinking man's game" is easier to tackle.

Golf: golf is overwhelmingly a game dominated by skill and not by strategy. Most of the "thinking" in golf is no more complicated than "what do I do to get that ball as close as I can." On occasion, a player might think that setting up an easier next shot, that is farther away is a better decision than putting the ball as close as they can get. But this is hardly complicated. The hard part of golf is clearly, being able to hit the ball and make it go where you want it to go. this is not "thinking."

Baseball: Again, the vast vast vast majority of this sport is NOT strategy based. There are SOME strategic elements to the game, but their overall importance is dwarfed by player skills and abilities. Hitting, throwing, catching, and running are the core of baseball. And 9 players who can do this, with no strategy at all, will beat the snot out of 9 players with a great strategy and no ability or skills. Or if you want a less exaggerated example, in any game 7 of a world series, having a great strategy going into the game can NOT make up for your pitcher having a bad night.

Football: This sport is interesting, because on its face, it's a game that values a players' overall strength and athletic ability much more than baseball. Skill is devalued somewhat (except by certain positions which are actually designated as "skill positions"). But it seems that overall strategy is paramount to football in a way it is not in most other major sports. Strategy can and often DOES overcome weaknesses in the ability of your own team and capitalizes on the weaknesses in the other team. Still, there is a minimum threshold of ability a player needs in order to be able to compete... So no, it's not a pure "thinking mans" game, but I think its much closer than baseball.

Chess: This is the prototype "thinking mans" game. It also illustrates the nature of the word "skill." Colloquially, we call it a "skill" game, and many people use this kind of language to describe how good a chess player is. But according to my categories, I would call this ALL strategy. Thinking that your queen should move to D5 is the immediate strategy, and no consideration should be made as regards to how you're going to move the piece there. There are few sports that have this unique "strategy only" type of play.

[keg in kc]

Apparently I'm going to have to keep score for those who can't read the part where I said "Competitive".

As for your comment that Pool might take more thinking or strategy on shot selection, I'm sorry to come off vulgar, but you're ****ing stupid and clearly never played golf, golf well, or competitively. LMAOI always find it to be a shame when people can't make a point without descending into personal attacks. Disappointing.

FYI I didn't (and still haven't) read whatever it is that you think I'm responding to. I have no idea why you're going off on me. I was responding to someone else.

I just think pool can be extremely difficult to play. There's a whole aspect to that game that golf just does not have. You don't really play golf defensively in quite the same way, leaving shots on the table in an effort to force your opponent into a bad position. There can be an unbelievable amount of strategy involved. Although I'm obviously not talking about $5 pitcher night at the local watering hole.

In golf, I've always found that's more about playing against myself. Sure your opponent can get in your head and vice versa, but again that's more a matter of mental strength as opposed to strategy. I'm always playing against myself, regardless of what the rest of my group is doing, knowing and pushing my own limits.

But, no, I don't play very often. And I won't ever play competitively. I'm not really a competitive kind of person. But that doesn't mean I can't have a philosophical grasp on a game, whether it's golf or football or tic-tac-toe.

[Direckshun]

Sorry for the confusion, allow me to reiterate.

It is a fact that Football came from Rugby, in fact, there was a time in football where the Forward pass wasn't allowed, which makes everything you just said that differentiated the comparison, moot.

How so?

You said rugby's actions and football's actions are similar.

I'm saying I don't see it. Tell me where you see it.