What makes a first-round left tackle bust?

[Rain Man]

You take a guy like Jason Smith. Obviously he's been a disappointment to the Rams, but why?

When you look at an offensive tackle, you measure him, and that's pretty obviously objective. You can watch a ton of game tape on him to see how he plays in real-life situations. You can time how fast he gets into pass protection and how agile he is. Maybe it's harder to measure whether he can react to audibles, but really, if he's got elite measurables it seems like even if he screws that up he can get in someone's way.

So why is Jason Smith a bust? He was deemed an ultra-safe pick. What is he not doing, and was there some way it could have been measured? And not just him, but also Robert Gallery, Kwame Harris, Trezelle Jenkins (sigh), Mike Williams, Kenyatta Walker, Stockar McDougle, and so on.

Or for that matter, just stick to Jason and Gallery since they were ultra-high picks. Trezelle was known to be a project.

It just seems like there are relatively few variables that are critical for an offensive lineman, and that all of them should be identified and measured by now. These are, after all, multimillion dollar investments.

[Sorter]

I'd say coaching, offensive philsophies/scheme, QB play, and play design (ties into OPhil) are all factors.

Additionally, different learning curves, the quality of the teachers the player has at his position, how much they dedicate themselves both on and off the field, and their intelligence are all factors that play a crucial role.

Nearly all of the 2nd paragraph's qualities are impossible for a fan to know sans inside information.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Watch the Chiefs carefully for the next 4 years, and you'll have your answer.

[Crush]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VpSvFiPdLZc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RealSNR]

I'll give you my opinion if you post in my thread I made just for you :harumph:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=272214

[Rain Man]

I'd say coaching, offensive philsophies/scheme, QB play, and play design (ties into OPhil) are all factors.

Additionally, different learning curves, the quality of the teachers the player has at his position, how much they dedicate themselves both on and off the field, and their intelligence are all factors that play a crucial role.

Nearly all of the 2nd paragraph's qualities are impossible for a fan to know sans inside information.

Nice post.

It seems like the quality of teachers can't be controlled, because every team will believe that they have quality teachers.

One would presume that the other Paragraph 2 things could be gleaned from interviews. One challenge, I guess, is that the college coaches may pump a guy up in interviews because they want their guy to go high, but it seems like lying would have a long-term impact on their credibility. (I'm looking at you, John Bunting, and your lies about Ryan Sims.) If I was an NFL team, I'd probably be talking to professors, restaurant workers, tutors, and others who don't have a vested interest.

On your first paragraph, that almost argues that the player isn't a bust, but rather that the team didn't do their homework or the team is self-delusional. Is there anything a team could do better to figure out if a left tackle is a fit with their philosophy?

And I guess the QB play can't be controlled. You either have Matt Cassel or you don't.

[Rain Man]

I'll give you my opinion if you post in my thread I made just for you :harumph:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=272214

Whoa, what's that? I must've missed it.

[BlackHelicopters]

Soon the Chiefs will serve up a how to screw up 1.1 tutorial.

[Sorter]

Nice post.

It seems like the quality of teachers can't be controlled, because every team will believe that they have quality teachers. True. This is why you probably need collaboration and in-depth interview process with all position coaches that the HC wants to hire (if you're a GM). It doesn't work that way though :(

One would presume that the other Paragraph 2 things could be gleaned from interviews. One challenge, I guess, is that the college coaches may pump a guy up in interviews because they want their guy to go high, but it seems like lying would have a long-term impact on their credibility. (I'm looking at you, John Bunting, and your lies about Ryan Sims.) If I was an NFL team, I'd probably be talking to professors, restaurant workers, tutors, and others who don't have a vested interest.
True and those are all sources I'd definitely interview as well as a few others. I'd also ensure that I saw how practices went. Whether those are closed to scouts entirely, I'm not sure
On your first paragraph, that almost argues that the player isn't a bust, but rather that the team didn't do their homework or the team is self-delusional. Is there anything a team could do better to figure out if a left tackle is a fit with their philosophy? As to the last sentence, probably not. You just really have to do your homework well.

And I guess the QB play can't be controlled. You either have Matt Cassel or you don't.

Last sentence=yup.

[AustinChief]

Acclimating them to an extremely high pressure environment then swiftly placing them in a vacuum?

No, that really doesn't work... WAIT I have it! SLIM WHITMAN!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DPgPyDBmY-k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.brightfutura.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/MartianHeadExplodes.gif

Do I win?

[CrazyPhuD]

Not having a Franchise QB to protect....

[jspchief]

I watched nearly every game Gallery played in college. The guy was a beast. Dominant against the pass rush and punishing in the run game. And he came from college coaching that has turned out a lot of technically sound NFL linemen.

To this day I can't understand how he didn't become a great NFL player.

[RealSNR]

The answer is I don't know enough about offensive line play to say for sure what I think makes tackles bust. Like all positions, it depends on the person getting drafted. Players can quite often simply not know what it takes to take all that great talent and use it properly on the football field.

I would have thought coaching would be high as well, but I've seen so many linemen go through shitty coach after shitty coach and still remain around the tops in the league.

All teams really have to go off of outside of the interview/film room I guess is what they like or look for in a player? It's the same thing that's going on in the Fisher/Joeckel debate. I doubt either player busts. One is going to be better than the other, though. Fisher plays a lot "meaner" than Joeckel does, which comes across as a kind of virtuosic play that you want out of a top LT.

[Mr. Laz]

You would think that measurables,balance and foot quickness would be the keys and you should be able to see those on tape and at the combine.

I guess laziness is a bust factor

[Urc Burry]

Was Jason Smith that good in college? I thought he just blew up the combine

[Mr. Laz]

Not having a Franchise QB to protect....
did willie roaf ever have a franchise QB to protect?
Ogden?
slater?

i'm sure i'm too old to think of them


QB kills an offense but it doesn't keep a left tackle from doing his job

[bevischief]

Talent, brains,coaching, and desire.

[Chris Meck]

I watched nearly every game Gallery played in college. The guy was a beast. Dominant against the pass rush and punishing in the run game. And he came from college coaching that has turned out a lot of technically sound NFL linemen.

To this day I can't understand how he didn't become a great NFL player.

Yeah, me either. That guy seemed like a slam dunk, and there's just no reason for him to be mediocre.

[Rain Man]

Was Jason Smith that good in college? I thought he just blew up the combine

That would be an interesting tell. I tend to shy away from guys who rocket up in the combine.

[Rain Man]

I tend to place a lot of emphasis on desire. Does a guy love the game? Does he love to hit? Does he want a Super Bowl?

I think about Greg Wesley as an example where it mattered. No one can argue about him being a fantastic athlete, but the guy just didn't really like football. So he tended to jog around on the field. It was a shame.

If you watched the ESPN show about Chris Spielman, that's a guy who loved football. Those guys will want to excel, and it's not about the money.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

We are the Dolphins of the few years ago. Taking the "safe pick" lineman over the "flawed" QB. Worked grrrreat for them!!! Probably even get a taste of vet QB turn around, 1st round playoff loss to boot!!

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

I watched nearly every game Gallery played in college. The guy was a beast. Dominant against the pass rush and punishing in the run game. And he came from college coaching that has turned out a lot of technically sound NFL linemen.

To this day I can't understand how he didn't become a great NFL player.

short arms?

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Was Jason Smith that good in college? I thought he just blew up the combine

yeah he was basically Lane Johnson

[Chief Roundup]

What makes a first-round left tackle bust?

Being drafted by the KC Chiefs.

[Deberg_1990]

I think it's really hard to predict how some guys will react to becoming instant millionaires. Will they remain hungry or get lazy? Will they still play with heart, or lose their passion?

[Saccopoo]

Tale of two highly rated offensive tackles. Nearly identical size, combine performances, nearly identical positive and negatives.

6'5"
309 lbs.
33 1/2" Arms
9 3/4" Hands

40: 5.22
Bench: 33
Vertical: 24.0"
Broad: 96.0"
3 Cone: 7.53
20 Shuttle: 4.69

Positives: Tall, athletic left tackle prospect. ... Excellent straight-line speed and hustle, getting downfield on screens and long runs. ... Can pull and trap, running smoothly and adjusting to oncoming defenders. ... Moves to the second level quickly, using good angles to keep linebackers out of the play. ... Should work well in zone-blocking schemes with his ability to lock onto defenders and move. ... Gets down quickly to cut block despite his height. ... Adjusts well to outside blitzers. ... Willing to throw his man to the ground and keep him there. ... Has made significant improvement in terms of technique and strength over the past two years at left tackle.

Negatives: Typically operates out of a two-point stance... Raw in his pass-set technique, standing a bit upright and backpedaling instead of sliding to mirror his man. ... Locks onto his man at first, but eventually loses his balance and grip due to his average upper-body strength and footwork. ... Does not have much of a punch in pass protection. ... Can lose the hands battle on the line. ... Could use a bit more bulk in the lower body to be more effective as a drive blocker. ... Could be moved inside to left guard for a zone-blocking team.


---------------------------------

6"6"
309 lbs.
34" Arms
10" Hands

40: 5.30
Bench: 27 Reps
Vertical: 28.5
Broad: 106.0
3 Cone: 7.40
20 Shuttle: 4.68

Positives: Technically-sound left tackle prospect. Plays with good bend and a very wide base in pass protection in spite of his long legs. Moves feet quickly and stays in balance, rarely giving up the edge and pulling off the down block/outside blitz pick-up admirably. Good timing and strength on his punch, possesses good hand placement and will reset them to maintain distance. Recovers quickly if his misses his punch, stays on his man. Gets after his man in the run game, has foot quickness to get correct angle and keeps them moving to sustain the block. Good power step inside to choke off inside spin moves. Capable cut-blocker. Excellent athleticism and foot speed, showing the ability to mirror and stay in front of many talented pass rushers over his three years starting.

Weaknesses: Does not possess elite upper or lower-body strength; only adequate as a drive-blocker and can be pushed back by better defensive ends and shed in the run game. Foot quickness is good, but does not execute the reach block as often as you’d like. Overextends his punch on occasion, vulnerable to a rip move outside or spin inside. Played exclusively in a two-point stance and can get caught playing upright. Did not frequently face pass rushers that challenged him hard upfield.

[Sfeihc]

The words "..and the Oakland Raiders select" usually do the trick.

[ChiefsCountry]

http://www.athlonsports.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/athlon_slideshow_portrait/slideshow-images/Jozwiak_Slideshow.jpghttp://bloguin.com/crystalballrun/images/stories/johnny-manziel-luke-joeckel.jpg

[KChiefs1]

Brian Jozwiak approves of this thread.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

A left tackle, no matter how good, has a ceiling to his value. A quarterback's ceiling is nearly unlimited.

Think of it this way: A middle reliever that gives a team a FIP of 3.00 and strikes out a batter than inning is a great value for $1 million a year. If you pay that same middle reliever $12 million a year he becomes a leaden albatross.

Due to the fixed impact of a LT but the extremely high cost, unless Joeckel can assert himself as a consistent top 5-8 LT, he's a bust.

There were many others to add to your list: Tony Mandarich, Leonard Davis, Levi Brown, et. al.

[a pp roach]

sexy women with big titties and asses.

but that's not limited to 1st round left tackles.

[Setsuna]

To answer OPs question. Being drafted 1st overall.

[Messier]

Personally, I would never draft an Iowa LT high. To me, they're basically all guards playing tackle. They're all power, and run blocking, not so great at footwork and technique.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Joeckel is nothing like Jason Smith. That's one hell of a reach

[bevischief]

Money.

[ILChief]

They are human just like any other player. Some don't have the work ethic, get lazy when they get the money, etc. sometimes scouts are just wrong. What made Akili Smith a bust at QB? Or mike Williams at WR? It's not an exact science

[milkman]

I believe it comes down to three things.

Feet and desire.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

The QB has the most affect on how well a LT does, just look at Johnny Manziel and how he made a 2nd-3rd round pick a potential #1 overall.

[milkman]

The QB has the most affect on how well a LT does, just look at Johnny Manziel and how he made a 2nd-3rd round pick a potential #1 overall.

Pretty sure there's some intended hyperbole there.

Manziel did bail Joekell out a couple of times, but he (Manziel) had a tendency to run well before he had to.

Joekell is a solid technician that woud be a first rounder in any draft, whose value is inflated in this draft because of the lack of elite talent at the top.

He's going to be a good LT for a long time.

But the emphasis here is on the word "good".