Andy Reid seems to think all Tackles are created equal . . .

[TomBarndtsTwin]

If history is any indication, Andy Reid seems to value an elite Right Tackle just as much as an elite Left Tackle:


Eagles make OT Runyan highest-paid lineman ever

Click here for more on this story
Posted: Monday February 14, 2000 08:30 PM

Jon Runyan rejected a six-year deal from the Tennessee Titans. Ezra O. Shaw/Allsport
PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- The Philadelphia Eagles broke ground on a $25 million practice facility and signed a $30 million free agent Monday.

Jon Runyan, a 6-foot-7, 330-pound right tackle, became the highest-paid offensive lineman in NFL history when he signed a 6-year, $30 million deal. Runyan, 26, leaves the AFC Champion Tennessee Titans for an Eagles team that is coming off a 5-11 season.

"It was going to take something to get me out of Tennessee and here I am," Runyan said. "There's a great feeling around here. The team is moving in the right direction. They stepped up and made the decision easy on the business end."

Runyan, who arrived in Philadelphia late Saturday night, said all along his decision would come down to money. Runyan's agent, Ben Dogra, said Tennessee offered him a six-year deal in excess of the $27 million package Cleveland gave to free-agent tackle Orlando Brown last year. However, the Eagles' offer is significantly more front-end loaded.

"There was no bidding war," Dogra said, adding that the Eagles initial offer was lower than the Titans'. "Tennessee had an offer to make him the highest paid lineman. We asked them if they would move on their offer. They probably called our bluff, thinking they would be bidding against themselves."

Runyan received a $6 million signing bonus and will get an additional $3.5 million if he is on the roster Feb. 21. His base salary for the 2000 season is $500,000. Runyan will count $5 million against the salary cap this year. He will earn $3.5 million in 2001-03. His salary increases to $4.5 in 2004 and $5.5 million in 2005. A Pro Bowl clause could make the final year worth $6.5 million.

"He's the best right tackle in football, bar none," Eagles coach Andy Reid said. "Everything starts with the offensive line. Having that philosophy, he is a key ingredient. He's a big part of this."

Runyan, a four-year veteran, played for three, 8-8 Titans teams prior to Tennessee's Super Bowl run this year. He believes there are similarities between his former team and his new team.

"I feel comfortable here," Runyan said. "They have a great, young quarterback [Donovan McNabb], a good running back [Duce Staley] and a solid defense. It's hard to turn down."

Runyan will team with 6-foot-7, 350-pound left tackle Tra Thomas to give the Eagles formidable bookend tackles. He helps solidify an offensive line unit that has not played well consistently since the early 1980s. The last offensive lineman to represent the Eagles in the Pro Bowl was Jerry Sisemore in 1982. Runyan also allows the Eagles to address other needs, namely wide receiver and defensive line, with the No. 6 pick in April's draft.

"This is obviously a position we feel secure at," Reid said. "Does it mean we won't take another lineman in the draft? No."

Runyan was scheduled to leave Philadelphia on Sunday. However, he decided to stay another day as a good faith gesture to prove he was serious about the Eagles. The team has been burned by free agents in the past who used their visit to Philadelphia as a bargaining tool. Dogra said he had not scheduled any other visits for Runyan though several teams are believed to have expressed interest.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2000/02/14/eagles_runyan_ap/?mobile=no

Just thought this was interesting to read so many years later . . . .

Some food for thought . . . . or discussion . . .

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Antiquated Andy.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Bump]

we do kind of underrate a good RT. honestly, its like do we forget the days of I-65? and all those fucked tards that kept fucking up and we were yelling at the TV being all like "GOD DAMNIT JORDAN BLACK DIE IN A FIRE"

Really though, pass rushers are coming at all angles these days, Justin Houston eats right tackles for breakfast on a weekly basis. It's not a bad idea to value the position a little more.

[Simply Red]

I'm going to tell u - six wins - 6

learn to cope with it - say it - say it aloud.

[Hammock Parties]

Everything starts with the offensive line.

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/dumbchefs.gif

[buddha]

Teams put great rushers over the RT as well.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

we do kind of underrate a good RT. honestly, its like do we forget the days of I-65? and all those ****ed tards that kept ****ing up and we were yelling at the TV being all like "GOD DAMNIT JORDAN BLACK DIE IN A FIRE"

Really though, pass rushers are coming at all angles these days, Justin Houston eats right tackles for breakfast on a weekly basis. It's not a bad idea to value the position a little more.

Ugh . . . . . Jordan Black. Had almost forgotten about that nightmare! :shake:

[CoMoChief]

Well it goes both ways....

A QB can not be successful if he's on his back all game. Oline has to block first because anything can be accomplished offensively.

Having that said I think Alex Smith sucks, I think he's always sucked and I think he benefited from a great defense in SF the last couple years, a defense the Chiefs do not have currently at the moment. He's a game manager just like Cassel was. Smith isn't going to be asked to win ball games, he's gonna be asked to not turn the ball over and put the ball in the playmakers hands.

Reid is known for being a passer first, but I just don't see how that's going to be this team's philosophy w/ Smith at the helm. I just don't. If you're going to be a pass-first team in this league you have to have a guy that's willing to put a team on his back, make everyone around him better and march down the field for TD drives, not this FG bullshit we've been witnessing for the past 8-9 yrs.

Damn it's been a decade since we had that awesome 2002-2003 offense. But that offense thrived w/ only having an average QB and no WR threats on the outside. Now granted we had one of the best Olines in NFL history in 2002 and a HOF TE, but our game was a run first offense and we passed a lot out of the backfield to our RB's, which is what Reid is going to do this season. Getting the ball into Charles hands in open field? I'm sold.

People also forget how much Dante Hall changed games for the Chiefs then. Something that we've been sorely lacking since he's left. This team needs to score TD's and set up good field position on every opportunity. Who'd going to return punts? McCluster? Gilyard? Gray? DMC better hold onto the god damn ball this season....same goes for Knile Davis...esp if he plans on being back#2.

Good thing about signing Albert long term is that it allows Stephenson to get better under the radar...so that if any of our starting tackles gets injured down the road, hopefully Stephenson can be good enough to step in and the offense not skip a beat. He was horrible at times last season but he also held his own a lot of times as well. He just needs time to get better and adjust to the league, I truly believe he can be a good tackle.

I'll agree w/ anyone that this team needs a top10 elite NFL QB in order to win it all...it's a god damn shame this team didn't suck for Luck, or fill their pants full of pee for RGIII. This was just a horrible year to have the 1st overall pick if you're wanting to draft a franchise QB...there just wasn't one in this draft.

[Setsuna]

ROFL I hate that gif but I'm loving it more the more I hate it.

But man I tell ya, you don't need stellar RTs and LTs, you just need ones that will do what you ask and nothing more. I guess we can expect Fisher to get Matt Cassel money once his rookie contract is up. Championship!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

we do kind of underrate a good RT. honestly, its like do we forget the days of I-65? and all those fucked tards that kept fucking up and we were yelling at the TV being all like "GOD DAMNIT JORDAN BLACK DIE IN A FIRE"

Really though, pass rushers are coming at all angles these days, Justin Houston eats right tackles for breakfast on a weekly basis. It's not a bad idea to value the position a little more.

People were yelling for Black to DIAF when he was subbing for Roaf and getting bludgeoned play after play in an offensive system where every call took 4-6 seconds to adequately develop.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/dumbchefs.gif

Nothing ever has, or will, encapsulate the futility of the Chiefs, both in their fans and failure, than that gif.

[philfree]

Well it goes both ways....

A QB can not be successful if he's on his back all game. Oline has to block first because anything can be accomplished offensively.

Having that said I think Alex Smith sucks, I think he's always sucked and I think he benefited from a great defense in SF the last couple years, a defense the Chiefs do not have currently at the moment. He's a game manager just like Cassel was. Smith isn't going to be asked to win ball games, he's gonna be asked to not turn the ball over and put the ball in the playmakers hands.

Reid is known for being a passer first, but I just don't see how that's going to be this team's philosophy w/ Smith at the helm. I just don't. If you're going to be a pass-first team in this league you have to have a guy that's willing to put a team on his back, make everyone around him better and march down the field for TD drives, not this FG bullshit we've been witnessing for the past 8-9 yrs.

Damn it's been a decade since we had that awesome 2002-2003 offense. But that offense thrived w/ only having an average QB and no WR threats on the outside. Now granted we had one of the best Olines in NFL history in 2002 and a HOF TE, but our game was a run first offense and we passed a lot out of the backfield to our RB's, which is what Reid is going to do this season. Getting the ball into Charles hands in open field? I'm sold.

People also forget how much Dante Hall changed games for the Chiefs then. Something that we've been sorely lacking since he's left. This team needs to score TD's and set up good field position on every opportunity. Who'd going to return punts? McCluster? Gilyard? Gray? DMC better hold onto the god damn ball this season....same goes for Knile Davis...esp if he plans on being back#2.

Good thing about signing Albert long term is that it allows Stephenson to get better under the radar...so that if any of our starting tackles gets injured down the road, hopefully Stephenson can be good enough to step in and the offense not skip a beat. He was horrible at times last season but he also held his own a lot of times as well. He just needs time to get better and adjust to the league, I truly believe he can be a good tackle.

I'll agree w/ anyone that this team needs a top10 elite NFL QB in order to win it all...it's a god damn shame this team didn't suck for Luck, or fill their pants full of pee for RGIII. This was just a horrible year to have the 1st overall pick if you're wanting to draft a franchise QB...there just wasn't one in this draft.


Uhhhh...What?

[mdchiefsfan]

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/dumbchefs.gif

LMAO

[Lightrise]

we do kind of underrate a good RT. honestly, its like do we forget the days of I-65? and all those ****ed tards that kept ****ing up and we were yelling at the TV being all like "GOD DAMNIT JORDAN BLACK DIE IN A FIRE"

Really though, pass rushers are coming at all angles these days, Justin Houston eats right tackles for breakfast on a weekly basis. It's not a bad idea to value the position a little more.

I agree. There is far too much video of inadequate protection on the right side. Pressure is pressure and it certainly does make a difference. As I studied Bray's video two things really stand out, much faster than most in the drop back and the fast release. I didn't see much tape of shotgun. Bray can really be something special with some coaching and I believe the plan all along with Childress was to make sure that either he or Reid had plenty of time to work with a rookie QB. Smith is actually a managers dream..reliable, not careless and not a troublemaker. I just think quality tackles on both sides will do wonders for the passing game and Charles will deliver a season full of thrills.

[PA Chiefs]

We need as many good players as possible so keeping Albert at this point is a no brainer. If Fisher and Albert are both top 10-15 tackles Charles will have over 2500 total yards from scrimmage. Plus A.Smith is a true game manager not to be compared with our last so called game manager so we need to protect him and let him get the ball out in a nice pocket. I think with that he can be very productive in Reid's system.

[ChiefBoyRDEE]

yep, he values both, the Eagles had good O lines until the last few years when the two pro bowl tackles (Tra Thomas / Jon Runyan) ended their careers and injuries beat up the rest ; he went out and got Jason Peters to replace one and he was awesome until he went down last year

AR will always value big O linemen and OTs in general

[ILChief]

Everyone knows all you need is the 15 th best LT and four fat guys from the Golden Corral on your OL /CP

[Rasputin]

Everyone knows all you need is the 15 th best LT and four fat guys from the Golden Corral on your OL /CP

Doesn't excuse not having or trying to find an elite quarterback. Getting one from the draft is a good place to start.

[Messier]

Doesn't excuse not having or trying to find an elite quarterback. Getting one from the draft is a good place to start.

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

[King_Chief_Fan]

Everyone knows all you need is the 15 th best LT and four fat guys from the Golden Corral on your OL /CPLMAO

[Marcellus]

Barry Richardson...all that needs to be said

[Rasputin]

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

That haven't been develop yet. Some of them could surprise people if when get the opportunity.

[ChiefRocka]

That haven't been develop yet. Some of them could surprise people if when get the opportunity.

Enter Tyler Bray, undrafted and rocket armed.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

Thank you Miss Cleo! Got those powerball numbers too?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

we do kind of underrate a good RT. honestly, its like do we forget the days of I-65? and all those fucked tards that kept fucking up and we were yelling at the TV being all like "GOD DAMNIT JORDAN BLACK DIE IN A FIRE"

Really though, pass rushers are coming at all angles these days, Justin Houston eats right tackles for breakfast on a weekly basis. It's not a bad idea to value the position a little more.

Right on. So much pass rush is coming from the RT side I just don't understand why people say RT shouldn't ge t paid like LT

[KCrockaholic]

http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780470124093_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg

[Setsuna]

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

That's ignorant.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

That's ignorant.

Suprised?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Direckshun]

To be fair, this OL is locked the fuck down, and should perform to Reid's liking.

LT: Albert, Stephenson
LG: Allen, Schwartz
C: Hudson, Kush
RG: Asamoah, Schwartz
RT: Fisher, Stephenson

That line is set.

So let's focus on QB, WR, DL, and passrushers. PLEASE.

[HemiEd]

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

2014? How do we know that already?

[Messier]

That's ignorant.

Who?

[Messier]

Thank you Miss Cleo! Got those powerball numbers too?
Posted via Mobile Device

Name the elite prospect.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

That's ignorant.

If you mean ignorant in the sense that we don't really know yet, and will not know till a few years down the road . . . . then, yes, I could agree with that.

But I think it's fair to say that no QB in this draft was projected to be a starter right from day one (there were certainly no Luck's or RG3's this year).

For that reason, I was fine with the Chiefs signing an undrafted free agent QB who has just as much 'potential' as any QB in this draft, rather than spending a high pick on a QB just so we can say we did.

Tyler Bray has a very high ceiling, but he also has major 'bust' potential. So what's the difference between him and the few other QB's taken in the first few rounds? In terms of a ceiling, not much. But obviously the floor is a lot lower on Bray than Smith or Manuel. But who cares? Isn't the goal to get an ELITE QB? If Smith or Manuel bust, you could end up with another "game-manager" QB, at best. Why is that significant? Well, I think most everyone on here has made it pretty clear how they feel about a "game-manager" QB. We DON'T want one!

So, logically, you would take the guy(s) with the highest reward potential while minimizing your risk (i.e. late round QB, undrafted FA). And that is EXACTLY what THIS draft was! There were no winning lottery tickets in this draft. Is it going to be like that in every draft? No, definitely not. But the Chiefs minimized their risk, while maximizing their potential.

I realize that won't satisfy the "we want a 1st round QB, no matter who he is" crowd, but it is a smart and prudent move by a new GM and coach looking to build something from the ground up. Why start treading water from the beginning??


And bottom line: we're going to need an ELITE O-Line to make this offense work the way Reid wants it to, so might as well take care of that while we can. The QB will have to wait till next year . . . . .

[jettio]

To be fair, this OL is locked the **** down, and should perform to Reid's liking.

LT: Albert, Stephenson
LG: Allen, Schwartz
C: Hudson, Kush
RG: Asamoah, Schwartz
RT: Fisher, Stephenson

That line is set.

So let's focus on QB, WR, DL, and passrushers. PLEASE.

That could be how it is in real life but when you list the roster you have to write OG Kush because I heard Sol say that in Pineapple Express.

[chiefsfan_91]

I honestly don't see what the problem people have with game managing QBs is. We just had one win the Super Bowl. Frankly, Alex Smith is leagues better than Joe Flacco. QB is the most important position in sports because it is the only position that can actually make or break a team. Case in point, Matt Cassel. He was far, far worse than a game manager. He literally threw games away. A Game Manager won't lose you the game; which is important. The Game Manager won't wow you with stats, or amaze you by calling 15 audibles before the snap, but he won't make costly mistakes either. And that's what this organization needs right now. Someone who can step in, take the reigns for a few seasons and can be a part of the development of a guy like Tyler Bray, who is raw, but has all the physical tools. I'm really liking the way this new regime is building the Chiefs. Its been a long time since we've been dominant in the trenches, and the way its looking, that's all about to change

[Nightfyre]

I honestly don't see what the problem people have with game managing QBs is. We just had one win the Super Bowl. Frankly, Alex Smith is leagues better than Joe Flacco. QB is the most important position in sports because it is the only position that can actually make or break a team. Case in point, Matt Cassel. He was far, far worse than a game manager. He literally threw games away. A Game Manager won't lose you the game; which is important. The Game Manager won't wow you with stats, or amaze you by calling 15 audibles before the snap, but he won't make costly mistakes either. And that's what this organization needs right now. Someone who can step in, take the reigns for a few seasons and can be a part of the development of a guy like Tyler Bray, who is raw, but has all the physical tools. I'm really liking the way this new regime is building the Chiefs. Its been a long time since we've been dominant in the trenches, and the way its looking, that's all about to change

Really? Seriously? Must be a troll/mult.

[chiefsfan_91]

Really? Seriously? Must be a troll/mult.

Nope, just someone who actually knows the game of football. Which seems to be rare here

[saphojunkie]

Nothing ever has, or will, encapsulate the futility of the Chiefs, both in their fans and failure, than that gif.

This is what I picture 99% of you all looking like during the gun threads.

[Marco Polo]

This is what I picture 99% of you all looking like during the gun threads.

ROFL

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

"Flacco the Game Manager". I have truly fucking heard the last word spoken by man now. Good god...
Posted via Mobile Device

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Name the elite prospect.

Yo' mamma.
Posted via Mobile Device

[KChiefs1]

What are the top 5 RT's paid?
I know times are changing because OG's were drafted in the top 10 this year.

[KChiefs1]

Barry Richardson...all that needs to be said

:(
Please don't remind me.

[Fat Elvis]

If you mean ignorant in the sense that we don't really know yet, and will not know till a few years down the road . . . . then, yes, I could agree with that.

But I think it's fair to say that no QB in this draft was projected to be a starter right from day one (there were certainly no Luck's or RG3's this year).

For that reason, I was fine with the Chiefs signing an undrafted free agent QB who has just as much 'potential' as any QB in this draft, rather than spending a high pick on a QB just so we can say we did.

Tyler Bray has a very high ceiling, but he also has major 'bust' potential. So what's the difference between him and the few other QB's taken in the first few rounds? In terms of a ceiling, not much. But obviously the floor is a lot lower on Bray than Smith or Manuel. But who cares? Isn't the goal to get an ELITE QB? If Smith or Manuel bust, you could end up with another "game-manager" QB, at best. Why is that significant? Well, I think most everyone on here has made it pretty clear how they feel about a "game-manager" QB. We DON'T want one!

So, logically, you would take the guy(s) with the highest reward potential while minimizing your risk (i.e. late round QB, undrafted FA). And that is EXACTLY what THIS draft was! There were no winning lottery tickets in this draft. Is it going to be like that in every draft? No, definitely not. But the Chiefs minimized their risk, while maximizing their potential.

I realize that won't satisfy the "we want a 1st round QB, no matter who he is" crowd, but it is a smart and prudent move by a new GM and coach looking to build something from the ground up. Why start treading water from the beginning??


And bottom line: we're going to need an ELITE O-Line to make this offense work the way Reid wants it to, so might as well take care of that while we can. The QB will have to wait till next year . . . . .

"Bust potential?" We signed the guy as an UDFA. There is no "bust" UDFAs. He can sit on a park bench and drool and the Chiefs are no worse off. We gave up NOTHING to get him. There is only upside. A lot of potential upside.

[Saccopoo]

There are no elite QBs in this draft.

There are no elite OT's in this draft either.

Fisher or Joeckel aren't Okung or Thomas, by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, if either Matthews or Lewan came out, both Joeckel and Fisher most likely would have been picked after both players.

Just because we picked one #1 doesn't mean that this guy is going to be a world beater.

Personally, I think he's going to have a tough time beating out either Albert or Stephenson and I believe we just drafted a back up - at least for this year depending upon what they end up doing with Albert.

If they sign Albert long term for decent money, I think he slides inside. And I think he might do that anyway under the franchise tag this season - and if he's asked to do such a thing, he might be so pissed about it that he just holds out for the season.

It remains to be seen if Fisher is capable of adapting to the next level. The Senior Bowl doesn't mean jack squat in terms of long term production at the next level (see Ryan Sims), and that's basically what they drafted Fisher off of. We'll see real quick as he'll be going against Hali and Houston.

They'll most likely want Fisher at LT simply because of draft status and money. As well, Albert still hasn't mastered the position in terms of technique. To protect him in his rookie year, they'll want Albert at LG. I'm pretty sure that there is no way that Asamoah beats out Schwartz at RG (Asamoah has underperformed so far in his career) and Stephenson is going to be entrenched at RT by the start of the season. Hudson is a lock at C.

[BossChief]

Sac, what do you know about this center we drafted?

Kush

[TomBarndtsTwin]

"Bust potential?" We signed the guy as an UDFA. There is no "bust" UDFAs. He can sit on a park bench and drool and the Chiefs are no worse off. We gave up NOTHING to get him. There is only upside. A lot of potential upside.

I'm aware of this. Clearly, you missed the point of what I was saying.

Bray may 'bust', but as a UDFA there is zero downside for the Chiefs. They signed a guy with a very high ceiling with little to no risk.

Whereas teams like Buffalo and the Jets risked a lot more by drafting their guys in the first 2 rounds, whose ceilings are not really that much higher, if any higher, than Brays.

In other words, the Chiefs were smart. If Bray flops, so what? You haven't really lost anything. I was complimenting them on their QB strategy, not criticizing.

[keg in kc]

So you explain why you say Bray may bust by explaining how Bray can't be a bust.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

There are no elite OT's in this draft either.

Unfortunately, a large number of NFL scouts disagree with you.

While no one is claiming Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden was in this draft, there certainly was and is 'elite' potential at the Tackle position.

There's a reason 3 of the first 4 picks were tackles and many other teams said those were the top guys on their draft boards.

It may not be 'sexy', but it is reality . . .

[TomBarndtsTwin]

So you explain why you say Bray may bust by explaining how Bray can't be a bust.

:spock:

I was using the term 'bust' flippantly; apparently no one caught that.

Sorry, I'll turn up my sarcasm meter next time before I post.

[HMc]

I'm aware of this. Clearly, you missed the point of what I was saying.

Bray may 'bust', but as a UDFA there is zero downside for the Chiefs. They signed a guy with a very high ceiling with little to no risk.

Whereas teams like Buffalo and the Jets risked a lot more by drafting their guys in the first 2 rounds, whose ceilings are not really that much higher, if any higher, than Brays.

In other words, the Chiefs were smart. If Bray flops, so what? You haven't really lost anything. I was complimenting them on their QB strategy, not criticizing.

If Manuel and Smith have the same "ceiling" as Bray, then the difference must be that they are much more likely to get there. Bray wasn't passed on >5 times by every single team because he is basically the same as Geno Smith - he fell out of the draft becuase he's evidently got the intellect of a young domestic animal.

Make no mistake about it, the likelihood that Bray wins more than 2 or 3 NFL games is miniscule. It will be a miracle if he shows anything at NFL level.

[Fat Elvis]

I'm aware of this. Clearly, you missed the point of what I was saying.

Bray may 'bust', but as a UDFA there is zero downside for the Chiefs. They signed a guy with a very high ceiling with little to no risk.

Whereas teams like Buffalo and the Jets risked a lot more by drafting their guys in the first 2 rounds, whose ceilings are not really that much higher, if any higher, than Brays.

In other words, the Chiefs were smart. If Bray flops, so what? You haven't really lost anything. I was complimenting them on their QB strategy, not criticizing.

Gotcha:thumb:

[Saccopoo]

Unfortunately, a large number of NFL scouts disagree with you.

While no one is claiming Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden was in this draft, there certainly was and is 'elite' potential at the Tackle position.

There's a reason 3 of the first 4 picks were tackles and many other teams said those were the top guys on their draft boards.

It may not be 'sexy', but it is reality . . .

Because they went early doesn't make them elite.

I've heard it mentioned many times that these guys were late first rounders at best in any other draft.

Chiefs picked Fisher due to the situation with Albert. Period.

Very reminiscent of the pick of Baldwin. We had absolutely nobody behind Bowe and were forced to pick Baldwin at that spot.

Albert was franchised and being shopped. Chiefs thought that they had the deal done with Miami. They were going to take either Fisher or Joeckel no matter what. However, the Albert trade imploded on them and now they are stuck with a disgruntled Albert and a 1.1 who is looking at being the backup tackle on the team for the 2013 season.

Fisher was a FBS player with good measurable who had a good Senior Bowl. That's it. He wasn't an Okung or Thomas or guys like that who had not only the elite measurables but also the reps at the position in a major BCS conference against top pass rushers. The guy is a complete question mark at this point and I seriously doubt that he's going to beat out either Albert or Stephenson for either tackle spot in 2013 unless the Chiefs move Albert to LG and if they try it, I'm thinking that Albert holds out.

[keg in kc]

I don't think the Chiefs ever believed they had the deal done with Miami, because Miami reportedly never offered more than a 3rd. Although I do think the Fisher pick was about Albert for a different reason: long-term contract leverage. Which makes it reminiscent of the Larry Johnson pick.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Unfortunately, a large number of NFL scouts disagree with you.

While no one is claiming Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden was in this draft, there certainly was and is 'elite' potential at the Tackle position.

There's a reason 3 of the first 4 picks were tackles and many other teams said those were the top guys on their draft boards.

It may not be 'sexy', but it is reality . . .

There's that word, "potential". What? I thought Joker and Fisher were "sure things"? Oh wait; there's no such thing and guess what? There WERE NO "elite" players at the top of this draft, at ANY position. But hey, we're the Chiefs. So lets create( or in this case FAIL to create)an uneccesary hole, and fill it with "potential" at Tackle! And-a-herp and-a-derp-and-derp-derp-derp!
Posted via Mobile Device

[HMc]

I suggest we wait until they actually play before determining whether they are "elite" or not, but I realise that's unfashionable.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I don't think the Chiefs ever believed they had the deal done with Miami, because Miami reportedly never offered more than a 3rd. Although I do think the Fisher pick was about Albert for a different reason: long-term contract leverage. Which makes it reminiscent of the Larry Johnson pick.

And that's a GREAT reason to piss away a one/one on a Tackle! Woot!
Posted via Mobile Device

[keg in kc]

I suggest we wait until they actually play before determining whether they are "elite" or not, but I realise that's unfashionable.Elite in the context of this discussion refers to the kind of prospect that they were. Non-elite prospects can still become elite players.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

If Manuel and Smith have the same "ceiling" as Bray, then the difference must be that they are much more likely to get there. Bray wasn't passed on >5 times by every single team because he is basically the same as Geno Smith - he fell out of the draft becuase he's evidently got the intellect of a young domestic animal.

Make no mistake about it, the likelihood that Bray wins more than 2 or 3 NFL games is miniscule. It will be a miracle if he shows anything at NFL level.

Agreed for the most part.

The reason Smith was drafted in the 2nd and Bray went undrafted has a lot more to do with the worst-case scenario, rather than the best.

But if the worst-case scenario plays itself out for both teams, who would you rather be? The Jets, who spent a second round pick on a guy that will never be more than average. Or the Chiefs, who signed an UDFA who is out of football in a couple years?

If the goal is always to obtain a "franchise" QB, which I believe it should be, then I would much rather be the Chiefs than the Jets.

[HMc]

I don't think the Chiefs ever believed they had the deal done with Miami, because Miami reportedly never offered more than a 3rd. Although I do think the Fisher pick was about Albert for a different reason: long-term contract leverage. Which makes it reminiscent of the Larry Johnson pick.

Fisher is more than 6 years younger than Albert. Even is Albert signs another LTD, he will realistically be in KC what, another 3 or 4 seasons? At which point Fisher will only be in his mid 20s. Won't it be nice to not have Joe Slapdick playing LT like happened after Roaf retired?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I suggest we wait until they actually play before determining whether they are "elite" or not, but I realise that's unfashionable.

YES, WHY DON'T WE TRY THAT? Herein lies the butthurt: We know beyond a shadow of doubt what Alex Smith is bringing to this party: a game-managing bag o' dickhammers. Period. We can not possibly BEGIN to know what Geno and the other QB's will bring to their teams. Not a motherfucking chance in hell can you know. Not TODAY, motherfuckers! But soon...
Posted via Mobile Device

[keg in kc]

And that's a GREAT reason to piss away a one/one on a Tackle! Woot!
Posted via Mobile DeviceWell, I also think he (meaning Fisher) was the top player on their board. While I didn't see him as an elite prospect, it's pretty clear that they did.

And this draft appeared to be exactly what some of us had been saying all along, it seems after listening to and reading a lot of post-draft discussion. If there were any elite prospects, the list started and ended with Fisher and Joeckel (both arguable in my mind...). This was a first round filled with what would normally be mid-first to mid-second prospects. Unfortunately for us, so was the entire second round. This would've been a great year to have that 34th pick.

[keg in kc]

Fisher is more than 6 years younger than Albert. Even is Albert signs another LTD, he will realistically be in KC what, another 3 or 4 seasons? At which point Fisher will only be in his mid 20s. Won't it be nice to not have Joe Slapdick playing LT like happened after Roaf retired?I was not making any kind of value judgement on the selection (as you can see in the last post I made, which obviously you couldn't have seen since I hadn't finished it yet).

However, if that really was the plan, you don't need the 1.1 for that, and you don't have to do it 3-4 years ahead of time.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Agreed for the most part.

The reason Smith was drafted in the 2nd and Bray went undrafted has a lot more to do with the worst-case scenario, rather than the best.

But if the worst-case scenario plays itself out for both teams, who would you rather be? The Jets, who spent a second round pick on a guy that will never be more than average. Or the Chiefs, who signed an UDFA who is out of football in a couple years?

If the goal is always to obtain a "franchise" QB, which I believe it should be, then I would much rather be the Chiefs than the Jets.

I think I'd rather be the team not relying on UDFA's to "beat the odds". Goddamnit man, this ISN'T "Rudy" for fuck's sake...
Posted via Mobile Device

[keg in kc]

It was interesting listening to Dorsey's interview on Between the Lines yesterday. He basically said the character issues being expressed in the articles about Geno Smith post draft were a load of bullshit that he didn't see in our interview with him.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Because they went early doesn't make them elite.

No, it doesn't. But most NFL scouts (guys that get paid lots of $$$$$ to do this for a living) thought the elite 'potential' existed at the Tackle spot, whereas almost all scouts across the board thought the 'potential' of the QB class was weak.

Don't believe me? Look at the results of the draft . . . .

[HMc]

Agreed for the most part.

The reason Smith was drafted in the 2nd and Bray went undrafted has a lot more to do with the worst-case scenario, rather than the best.

But if the worst-case scenario plays itself out for both teams, who would you rather be? The Jets, who spent a second round pick on a guy that will never be more than average. Or the Chiefs, who signed an UDFA who is out of football in a couple years?

If the goal is always to obtain a "franchise" QB, which I believe it should be, then I would much rather be the Chiefs than the Jets.

That entirely contradicts the rest of your post.

Even if their ceilings are identical, Smith looks about 100 times more likely to reach it.

So you approve of signing undrafted QBs in the search of a franchise QB? And you prefer that to spending the ~40th pick on a guy that had am awful lot of 1st round noise about him? Seriously?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Well, I also think he (meaning Fisher) was the top player on their board. While I didn't see him as an elite prospect, it's pretty clear that they did.

And this draft appeared to be exactly what some of us had been saying all along, it seems after listening to and reading a lot of post-draft discussion. If there were any elite prospects, the list started and ended with Fisher and Joeckel (both arguable in my mind...). This was a first round filled with what would normally be mid-first to mid-second prospects. Unfortunately for us, so was the entire second round. This would've been a great year to have that 34th pick.

Exactly. The "top tier" was in reality second-tier at best. Soooooooo....why not draft the best available QB for tuteledge under Reid and all these other supercalifragilistic coaches, instead of herp-derping with a fucking O-line that was easily serviceable to a QB not named "Cassel"?
Posted via Mobile Device

[KChiefs1]

Doesn't excuse not having or trying to find an elite quarterback. Getting one from the draft is a good place to start.

You do understand that no one thought there was a franchise QB in this draft.

[keg in kc]

Exactly. The "top tier" was in reality second-tier at best. Soooooooo....why not draft the best available QB for tuteledge under Reid and all these other supercalifragilistic coaches, instead of herp-derping with a ****ing O-line that was easily serviceable to a QB not named "Cassel"?
Posted via Mobile DeviceIt was never, ever going to happen. I think we all knew that all along. Or we should have.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

I think I'd rather be the team not relying on UDFA's to "beat the odds". Goddamnit man, this ISN'T "Rudy" for ****'s sake...
Posted via Mobile Device

"Relying on" is a little strong, don't you think?

I think the Chiefs just took a shot on an UDFA and said 'what the hell, why not?'

You would prefer they spend a #1 pick on the 'best' QB in a sh*t QB class?

JaMarcus Russell says hello . . . .

[HMc]

there are 3 or so teams with fairly sketchy arrangements in place at the QB position that passed twice on every QB not named Manuel. If Geno Smith ends up being Giovanni Carmazzi, won't people be glad he wasn't picked? I thought this was a standard QB class as opposed to last year's super-class. It seems the teams thought it was the 2000 draft.

Single and multiple teams fuck up in the draft all the time. EVERY SINGLE TEAM doesn't usually do it.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

You do understand that no one thought there was a franchise QB in this draft.

This. :clap:

[keg in kc]

Forget about #1. How about spending #34 on the ''best' QB in a shit QB class". He would've been there, and they'd have looked like geniuses for doing it.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

"Relying on" is a little strong, don't you think?

I think the Chiefs just took a shot on an UDFA and said 'what the hell, why not?'

You would prefer they spend a #1 pick on the 'best' QB in a sh*t QB class?

JaMarcus Russell says hello . . . .

By all means NO. I'd prefer we keep our outstanding track record of success with other peoples cast-offs!
Posted via Mobile Device

[HMc]

Forget about #1. How about spending #34 on the ''best' QB in a shit QB class". He would've been there, and they'd have looked like geniuses for doing it.

It would have been a good option. And to be fair to almost all of chiefsplanet, most here were fucking ropable at the decision to trade that pick away.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Forget about #1. How about spending #34 on the ''best' QB in a shit QB class". He would've been there, and they'd have looked like geniuses for doing it.

but..but..we would then be denied the ultra-talented, game-changing juggernaut that IS Alex Smith! Oh, the horror!
Posted via Mobile Device

[TomBarndtsTwin]

That entirely contradicts the rest of your post.

Even if their ceilings are identical, Smith looks about 100 times more likely to reach it.

So you approve of signing undrafted QBs in the search of a franchise QB? And you prefer that to spending the ~40th pick on a guy that had am awful lot of 1st round noise about him? Seriously?

100x more likely, huh? You willing to place a bet in Vegas on those odds?

Ahhhhh, yes . . . . . the first round 'buzz'. There's that talk again. And yet not a single team picking in the first round selected him. Go figure.

No, I don't prefer the Chiefs go dumpster-diving to find their future franchise QB, but I'd rather them sign an UDFA like Bray than spend 1.1 on Jamarcus Russell Part Deux.

But that's just me . . . .

[Wallcrawler]

The biggest fan of the Runyan signing back then was Michael Strahan.

[Bump]

the more I think about it, the more the pick makes sense.

The QBs weren't there I guess. Although I'd still much rather this worked out with Fisher + Geno just for the hope.

But it makes sense to value both tackles. Fucking Justin Houston, just look at him! He fucking rapes shitty RT's all the time and you watch it. Other teams have 2 rushers too, Casey Mathews on the Packers come from the right. I mean, it makes sense to protect the passer in a super pass happy league.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Forget about #1. How about spending #34 on the ''best' QB in a shit QB class". He would've been there, and they'd have looked like geniuses for doing it.

Moot point. We didn't have the #34 pick to do just that.

Trading our #2 pick for Alex Smith was certainly not my choice.

[HMc]

100x more likely, huh? You willing to place a bet in Vegas on those odds?

Ahhhhh, yes . . . . . the first round 'buzz'. There's that talk again. And yet not a single team picking in the first round selected him. Go figure.

No, I don't prefer the Chiefs go dumpster-diving to find their future franchise QB, but I'd rather them sign an UDFA like Bray than spend 1.1 on Jamarcus Russell Part Deux.

But that's just me . . . .

3 posts ago it was the Jets with the 39th pick..Now it's the 1.1.

The goalposts are shifting.

I'm fine with picking up Bray as a UDFA. Would have been fine with using the 34 on Smith. I think you are desperate to conclude that they did better than the jets, and will use all sorts of wierd non-reasoning to do so.

[GoChargers]

Everyone knows all you need is the 15 th best LT and four fat guys from the Golden Corral on your OL /CP

The Super Bowl participants from the last few years certainly didn't need an elite LT. Most of them were playing backups, washed-up vets, or inexperienced young guys at that position. They also had great quarterbacks and playmakers all over the roster. /Reality

[GoChargers]

I honestly don't see what the problem people have with game managing QBs is. We just had one win the Super Bowl. Frankly, Alex Smith is leagues better than Joe Flacco. QB is the most important position in sports because it is the only position that can actually make or break a team. Case in point, Matt Cassel. He was far, far worse than a game manager. He literally threw games away. A Game Manager won't lose you the game; which is important. The Game Manager won't wow you with stats, or amaze you by calling 15 audibles before the snap, but he won't make costly mistakes either. And that's what this organization needs right now. Someone who can step in, take the reigns for a few seasons and can be a part of the development of a guy like Tyler Bray, who is raw, but has all the physical tools. I'm really liking the way this new regime is building the Chiefs. Its been a long time since we've been dominant in the trenches, and the way its looking, that's all about to change
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md95uagwKT1qck737.gif

[TomBarndtsTwin]

3 posts ago it was the Jets with the 39th pick..Now it's the 1.1.

The goalposts are shifting.

I'm fine with picking up Bray as a UDFA. Would have been fine with using the 34 on Smith. I think you are desperate to conclude that they did better than the jets, and will use all sorts of wierd non-reasoning to do so.

Okay, I'm going to say this again slowly . . . .

The Chiefs did not have a pick in the second round, therefore the only way they could have spent a first or second round pick on a QB would be to use 1.1.

We are having this conversation in the context of the CHIEFS, not the Jets, drafting a QB high in the draft.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. :shake:

[HMc]

Okay, I'm going to say this again slowly . . . .

The Chiefs did not have a pick in the second round, therefore the only way they could have spent a first or second round pick on a QB would be to use 1.1.

We are having this conversation in the context of the CHIEFS, not the Jets, drafting a QB high in the draft.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. :shake:

Then why on earth did you bother posting this?



If the goal is always to obtain a "franchise" QB, which I believe it should be, then I would much rather be the Chiefs than the Jets.

[L.A. Chieffan]

like I said in another thread. Alex Smith will be the best quarterback over any of these guys over the next two or three seasons.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Then why on earth did you bother posting this?

You really need to go back in the thread and read my posts from earlier.
I explained my position very clearly:

Summary:

This is, for all intents an purposes, a weak QB class. Most NFL scouts concur with that assessment. Most scouts also believe Bray has a ceiling as high as ANYONE in this draft. But, obviously, his floor is much lower. Which is why he went undrafted.

Therefore, since the goal is to get a high ceiling guy and for him to realize his potential; I would much rather the Chiefs sign a guy like Bray as an UDFA, then draft a guy like Geno, who offers roughly the same ceiling, and additionally costs you a high draft pick. Further, since the Chiefs don't have a second round pick, the only way they could have drafted Geno would have been to spend 1.1 on him. And, IMO (and many other NFL scouts opinions), that would have been a HUGE reach and not good value for the pick.

If Geno was still sitting there in the 4th round and the Chiefs wanted to pull the trigger on him then, I could have lived with that also. But he wasn't and they didn't.

That's about as succinctly as I can explain my position. Again, if you need additional clarification, read back through the thread . . . .

[keg in kc]

Moot point. We didn't have the #34 pick to do just that.

Trading our #2 pick for Alex Smith was certainly not my choice.The fact that we decided to trade that pick for Alex Smith in January instead of using it to draft a player that could have had a great positive impact on the franchise for years moving forward (and I don't limit that possibility to Geno Smith) is precisely the point that I was making.

It's really ironic in a way. Every justification for Fisher at 1.1 with regard to Albert (Albert will be gone in 3-4 years, Fisher will ascend to be a better player than Albert in time, etc) would be an equally valid justification for not making that move for Alex Smith.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

The fact that we decided to trade that pick for Alex Smith in January instead of using it to draft a player that could have had a great positive impact on the franchise for years moving forward (and I don't limit that possibility to Geno Smith) is precisely the point that I was making.

It's really ironic in a way. Every justification for Fisher at 1.1 with regard to Albert (Albert will be gone in 3-4 years, Fisher will ascend to be a better player than Albert in time, etc) would be an equally valid justification for not making that move for Alex Smith.

Don't disagree with you at all on the Alex Smith decision and whether that is what was best for the franchise long term.

But it was the decision the Chiefs brass made, so going into the draft we had to play cards with the hand we had . . . .

I would have much rather kept the #34, signed a veteran stopgap familiar with the system for a couple years, while Reid groomed whatever young-QB-in-waiting to be ready to take over by 2015, if not 2014.

[keg in kc]

Don't disagree with you at all on the Alex Smith decision and whether that is what was best for the franchise long term.

But it was the decision the Chiefs brass made, so going into the draft we had to play cards with the hand we had . . . .

I would have much rather kept the #34, signed a veteran stopgap familiar with the system for a couple years, while Reid groomed whatever young-QB-in-waiting to be ready to take over by 2015, if not 2014.Then there's no point at all in discussing Geno Smith at any point in the draft, much less at 1.1. Because there was zero possibility that they were taking any QB with any pick on the first two days of this draft as soon as the trade for Alex Smith was made. And that's the reason it has never really been an issue of "Geno or Fisher". It's always been an issue of "Geno or Alex".

[HMc]

You really need to go back in the thread and read my posts from earlier.
I explained my position very clearly:

Summary:

This is, for all intents an purposes, a weak QB class. Most NFL scouts concur with that assessment. Most scouts also believe Bray has a ceiling as high as ANYONE in this draft. But, obviously, his floor is much lower. Which is why he went undrafted.

Therefore, since the goal is to get a high ceiling guy and for him to realize his potential; I would much rather the Chiefs sign a guy like Bray as an UDFA, then draft a guy like Geno, who offers roughly the same ceiling, and additionally costs you a high draft pick. Further, since the Chiefs don't have a second round pick, the only way they could have drafted Geno would have been to spend 1.1 on him. And, IMO (and many other NFL scouts opinions), that would have been a HUGE reach and not good value for the pick.

If Geno was still sitting there in the 4th round and the Chiefs wanted to pull the trigger on him then, I could have lived with that also. But he wasn't and they didn't.

That's about as succinctly as I can explain my position. Again, if you need additional clarification, read back through the thread . . . .

Your brokedick analysis appears to assume the following:


that Geno offers "roughly the same ceiling" as Bray [citation required];
that players either hit their ceiling or fall to the floor [citation required];and
all players have the same % chance of hitting their ceiling or falling to the floor.
The reason no team was even willing to spend even a 7 on Bray is that they all formed the view that there is barely a snowflake's shot in hell of him being productive in the NFL. All this "high ceiling" shit is down to him having a big arm and that's it. The QB is the most important position on the field. If there's a guy there in the 7th that has even a 5% chance of being better than the guys taken at 16 and 39, you take him.

Your explanation has been neither clear nor succint - it changes every 2nd post. The only point you've actually made is that you are glad the chiefs didn't spend the 1.1 on Smith. Which is useless really since if they had, he wouldn't have dropped, and we'd all be talking about how he wouldn't have made it past the jaguars at number 2.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Your brokedick analysis appears to assume the following:


that Geno offers "roughly the same ceiling" as Bray [citation required];
that players either hit their ceiling or fall to the floor [citation required];and
all players have the same % chance of hitting their ceiling or falling to the floor.
The reason no team was even willing to spend even a 7 on Bray is that they all formed the view that there is barely a snowflake's shot in hell of him being productive in the NFL. All this "high ceiling" shit is down to him having a big arm and that's it. The QB is the most important position on the field. If there's a guy there in the 7th that has even a 5% chance of being better than the guys taken at 16 and 39, you take him.

Your explanation has been neither clear nor succint - it changes every 2nd post. The only point you've actually made is that you are glad the chiefs didn't spend the 1.1 on Smith. Which is useless really since if they had, he wouldn't have dropped, and we'd all be talking about how he wouldn't have made it past the jaguars at number 2.

I'm sorry that your reading comprehension is lacking. Again, you're welcome to read back through the thread . . . . .

I haven't changed my position. If you don't agree with it, fine. So be it.

Yes, I am glad the Chiefs did not spend 1.1 on Geno Smith. I think I'll take my chances siding with the majority of NFL scouts opinions over the opinions of the pro-Geno crowd.

I'm sorry if that upsets you.

[Alex Smith 4Ever]

And this website thinks all yards are created equal when they hate on Alex Smith

[HMc]

I'm sorry that your reading comprehension is lacking. Again, you're welcome to read back through the thread . . . . .

I haven't changed my position. If you don't agree with it, fine. So be it.

Yes, I am glad the Chiefs did not spend 1.1 on Geno Smith. I think I'll take my chances siding with the majority of NFL scouts opinions over the opinions of the pro-Geno crowd.

I'm sorry if that upsets you.

LOL, yet you're high on a guy that wasn't drafted at all.

Got it.

[GoChargers]

And this website thinks all yards are created equal when they hate on Alex Smith

And you somehow think checkdowns and game-managing is the key to a title when you lick Alice Smiff's ballsack.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

LOL, yet you're high on a guy that wasn't drafted at all.

Got it.

Well, he is OUR Quarterback in case you hadn't noticed.

But, by all means, continue to drool all over Geno in his Jets uniform . . . . . .

Moving on.

[HMc]

Well, he is OUR Quarterback in case you hadn't noticed.

But, by all means, continue to drool all over Geno in his Jets uniform . . . . . .

Moving on.

At least you're admitting to unabashed homerism now. Progress.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

At least you're admitting to unabashed homerism now. Progress.

Better to be a homer, than a whiny little bitch crying and lamenting over what might have been . . . . .

To each his own, I guess.

[HMc]

Better to be a homer, than a whiny little bitch crying and lamenting over what might have been . . . . .

To each his own, I guess.

Because they are the only two options?

You're the dolt that said the Cheifs got a better deal on potentially finding their FQB merely because it didn't cost them any picks.

[Mizzou_8541]

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/dumbchefs.gif

That's embarrassing, good lord.