Any HVAC experts want to weigh in on something...

[AustinChief]

My parents in DFW have an old system that it appears the evap/coils on the air handler are shot. It's an R22 system and they are trying to see if it is worth upgrading to r410 now. My question is... could they replace the evap/coils on the air handler and then also just replace the condenser on the heat pump and get away with a cheapish conversion to r410 or will they need to run new lines and replace the whole air handler and heat pump.

The other option is to just replace the evap/coils and stay R22 but that seems like a pretty big expense to not just go ahead and upgrade things.

[mlyonsd]

A good son that owns a highly popular website should probably buy his parents the Cadillac model as an anniversary present.

I know I would if in that position.

[Bugeater]

I'd be real surprised if there was a way to cost effectively convert a condensing unit to 410.

If the current heat pump is less than 5 years old I'd probably lean towards just replacing the evap. If it's an older unit they may as well go ahead and bite the bullet for a 410 system.

[CoMoChief]

I think the lines and coils also have to be replaced.

[AustinChief]

I think the lines and coils also have to be replaced.

I know the coils need to be replaced, they are the problem. It's just a question of replacing them and staying R22 or replacing the evap/coils AND replacing the heat pump's condenser to go R410 ... if that is even possible... or replacing the whole system inside and out.

One of the biggest issues is the placement of the air handler.. I honestly have no clue how they got it installed in the first place. It is huge and the the access is not.

[ChiefaRoo]

I'm not a specialist but I can tell you that almost every Engineering Organization I ever met who designed "White Goods" like A.C., Water Heater, Washer, Dryer etc. got input from their Sales/Marketing people and they usually make sure to keep older technology incompatible with newer tech unless of course they have an in house customer service unit where they will do less work for more margin thus creating a larger income stream for themselves. I'm guessing you have built in incompatibility.

[brorth]

I know the coils need to be replaced, they are the problem. It's just a question of replacing them and staying R22 or replacing the evap/coils AND replacing the heat pump's condenser to go R410 ... if that is even possible... or replacing the whole system inside and out.

One of the biggest issues is the placement of the air handler.. I honestly have no clue how they got it installed in the first place. It is huge and the the access is not.

I just went through a similar situation. Apparently R410 runs at a significantly higher pressure than R22, and that makes it an all or nothing conversion.

[brorth]

I'm not a specialist but I can tell you that almost every Engineering Organization I ever met who designed "White Goods" like A.C., Water Heater, Washer, Dryer etc. got input from their Sales/Marketing people and they usually make sure to keep older technology incompatible with newer tech unless of course they have an in house customer service unit where they will do less work for more margin thus creating a larger income stream for themselves. I'm guessing you have built in incompatibility.

So yeah, this.

[AustinChief]

I just went through a similar situation. Apparently R410 runs at a significantly higher pressure than R22, and that makes it an all or nothing conversion.

Yeah I can see this point... but I'm just thinking that the R22/R410 closed "system" is basically [evap/coils - lines - condenser]. I just can't see how the blower motor or electric heater element or any other parts of the air handler or heat pump would make a difference. Which is why my thought is that replacing the condenser and evap/coils would be all that was needed unless there is some crazy difference in the line sizes.

I finally remembered I have a buddy who does this for a living in Austin who I have sent a message to. Hopefully he can set me straight. I have a sneaking feeling the costs will be about the same no matter on this.

Interesting guy who has been doing this for years after retiring from profession bull riding. He even came back for a while and tried the "senior" circuit.

[Bugeater]

Are we talking about a self-contained unit or a split system?

[AustinChief]

Are we talking about a self-contained unit or a split system?

Split system. Air handler inside with evap/coils and then I'd guess about 25 ft of line (3/8 and 7/8 does that sound right?) running outside to heat pump.

Inside coils have the leak.

[TambaBerry]

Replace the whole thing, a lot of money upfront but it will save you money in the long run.

[Monty]

This guy is great and he will provide second opinion if needed. http://www.bigbearair.com/

[Bugeater]

Split system. Air handler inside with evap/coils and then I'd guess about 25 ft of line (3/8 and 7/8 does that sound right?) running outside to heat pump.

Inside coils have the leak.
Ok, then it must be a heat pump with an electric backup furnace? You had me confused when you started talking about heating coils and blower motor. That's all part of the furnace and the heat pump system should be able to be replaced without touching that. The evap should be mounted in a plenum right above the furnace, it's not part of it.

[AustinChief]

Ok, then it must be a heat pump with an electric backup furnace? You had me confused when you started talking about heating coils and blower motor. That's all part of the furnace and the heat pump system should be able to be replaced without touching that. The evap should be mounted in a plenum right above the furnace, it's not part of it.

Yep, I was referring to the backup electric heater I just assumed it's all part of the same air handler, I was probably wrong on that. I made that assumption because the damn air handler is MASSIVE, it's like the size of a refrigerator on its side.

It's something like this (but not exactly) http://www.goodmanmfg.com/ResidentialProducts/AirHandlersCoils/nbspnbspnbspARUFSF/tabid/1838/Default.aspx

My concern is the vast amount of labor required to replace the entire unit(I don't even see how it was put in in the first place) as compared to the POSSIBILITY of replacing just some of the guts (evap/coils). Of course, it may just be cheaper to buy the whole unit, I have no clue.

[plbrdude]

Split system. Air handler inside with evap/coils and then I'd guess about 25 ft of line (3/8 and 7/8 does that sound right?) running outside to heat pump.

Inside coils have the leak.

if its a really old system your evap coil might be on the supply air side, if it's fairly new even within 20 yr the evap coil should be in the return air side. that being said you could replace the evap coil in the air handler. not knowing brand i would guess that the coil could run anywhere between 275 to 425. plus near to 5-8lb of r-22 depending on tonnage if its all leaked out. maybe 4 to 6 hr in lbr. 22 could be $20+ per lb now, lbr rates for that area may be well higher than $60 per hr. you could be pushing $1000 for just that.

the condensor you speak of changing is the outside unit, you don't convert a condensing unit from 22 to 410a. a/c or heat pump you change the unit, which also means you change the a-coil, which in this case prolly means the air handler. the line set can be left and flushed if its been brazed, if its been stay bright soldered best to change it too as 410 pressures are well higher than 22. on a hot day your liquid side could push toward 500psi; wouldn't trust stay bright.

unfortunately you're prolly lookin at a sysyem change out.the only other option if you want a newer outside unit is to see about a dry 22 unit, then go a coil and ht pmp if it's available.

that's my 2 cents worth anyways.

[Bugeater]

Yep, I was referring to the backup electric heater I just assumed it's all part of the same air handler, I was probably wrong on that. I made that assumption because the damn air handler is MASSIVE, it's like the size of a refrigerator on its side.

It's something like this (but not exactly) http://www.goodmanmfg.com/ResidentialProducts/AirHandlersCoils/nbspnbspnbspARUFSF/tabid/1838/Default.aspx

My concern is the vast amount of labor required to replace the entire unit(I don't even see how it was put in in the first place) as compared to the POSSIBILITY of replacing just some of the guts (evap/coils). Of course, it may just be cheaper to buy the whole unit, I have no clue.
Oh hell, I've never even seen anything like that before, I can't even begin to tell you wtf you're up against.

This is what you see in homes up here:

http://www.comfortairtemp.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/100_3866.jpg

[AustinChief]

if its a really old system your evap coil might be on the supply air side, if it's fairly new even within 20 yr the evap coil should be in the return air side. that being said you could replace the evap coil in the air handler. not knowing brand i would guess that the coil could run anywhere between 275 to 425. plus near to 5-8lb of r-22 depending on tonnage if its all leaked out. maybe 4 to 6 hr in lbr. 22 could be $20+ per lb now, lbr rates for that area may be well higher than $60 per hr. you could be pushing $1000 for just that.

the condensor you speak of changing is the outside unit, you don't convert a condensing unit from 22 to 410a. a/c or heat pump you change the unit, which also means you change the a-coil, which in this case prolly means the air handler. the line set can be left and flushed if its been brazed, if its been stay bright soldered best to change it too as 410 pressures are well higher than 22. on a hot day your liquid side could push toward 500psi; wouldn't trust stay bright.

unfortunately you're prolly lookin at a sysyem change out.the only other option if you want a newer outside unit is to see about a dry 22 unit, then go a coil and ht pmp if it's available.

that's my 2 cents worth anyways.

Thanks!

Yeah I knew you couldn't "convert" the outside condenser in the heat pump I was just thinking that since they have to replace the a-coil in the air handler (I'm assuming the a-coil and evap are same or am I way off here) that they could go with an a-coil that handles r410 (pretty sure the new Goodman's have same fittings) and go ahead and replace the heat pump's condenser as well. Or would you have to replace the entire heat pump?

I have no clue on the soldering, which obviously could be an issue.

Just so you know, the air handler is a Goodman A49-15, I think it may be from around 2000. Not sure on the make/model of heat pump but I know it was manufactured in July 2004.

[AustinChief]

Oh hell, I've never even seen anything like that before, I can't even begin to tell you wtf you're up against.

This is what you see in homes up here:


Yeah, this is Texas, that little thing couldn't handle a closet down here! :D Actually I think we are looking at same basic thing just bigger and on it's side and in the crawlspace above the laundry room. I really am boggled by the location of it. There is simply no way in hell the thing could have fit through the access panel... well, now that I think about it, I guess if you removed the entire door/stairs thingy maybe it could squeeze in. I'll have them get some measurements now that I have the model number and specs for the air handler.

[Bugeater]

Yes, the A-coil is your evaporator (but it acts as a condenser when the heat pump is in heating mode)

The heat pump IS the outside condensing unit. It's just like an standard AC condensing unit, but it has a reversing valve and some other extra bullshit on it.

[plbrdude]

Thanks!

Yeah I knew you couldn't "convert" the outside condenser in the heat pump I was just thinking that since they have to replace the a-coil in the air handler (I'm assuming the a-coil and evap are same or am I way off here) that they could go with an a-coil that handles r410 (pretty sure the new Goodman's have same fittings) and go ahead and replace the heat pump's condenser as well. Or would you have to replace the entire heat pump?

I have no clue on the soldering, which obviously could be an issue.

Just so you know, the air handler is a Goodman A49-15, I think it may be from around 2000. Not sure on the make/model of heat pump but I know it was manufactured in July 2004.

you very well may can get an a-coil, which is the evaporator. one to fit that should still be available, if the heat pump is only 9 yr old i'd be fairly temped to keep it.
the heat pump is the outside unit, so when you say the entire heat pump it would be the outside unit.

not sure if a 410a coil would fit in that air handler as they are usually a little bigger than a 22 coil. taller usually, which can be a headache.

if you were to upgrade to 410 it would prolly be wise to match system and change inside and out, just have line set checked close. it possibly could be left if it would be a total pain to change.

[AustinChief]

you very well may can get an a-coil, which is the evaporator. one to fit that should still be available, if the heat pump is only 9 yr old i'd be fairly temped to keep it.
the heat pump is the outside unit, so when you say the entire heat pump it would be the outside unit.

not sure if a 410a coil would fit in that air handler as they are usually a little bigger than a 22 coil. taller usually, which can be a headache.

if you were to upgrade to 410 it would prolly be wise to match system and change inside and out, just have line set checked close. it possibly could be left if it would be a total pain to change.

Yes, the A-coil is your evaporator (but it acts as a condenser when the heat pump is in heating mode)

The heat pump IS the outside condensing unit. It's just like an standard AC condensing unit, but it has a reversing valve and some other extra bullshit on it.

Yep I know the Heat Pump IS the outside condenser unit. I was just referring to JUST the condenser part of the heat pump outside and not the whole shell and fan stuff. I am not doing a great job of communicating all of this! :D

Let me start over. I was thinking they could either A)replace a-coil as is and stay with R22 which is going to cost them a bunch to recharge. (something like $600 quoted to them just for recharge, I think) or B)replace a-coil with one for R410 and then of course they would have to replace the condenser in the heat pump outside to match. It sounds like you guys are saying that you don;t replace the condenser alone but the entire unit. Or of course C)replace the heat pump outside and the air handler inside which is going to be a massive job that I think will end up well over $6k or even $7k

I want to recommend option B if it is at all feasible, since in my mind I was thinking they could get away with a job costing closer to $3k and have basically the same result as option C but without the brand new warranties.

OK, let me know if my thinking is crazy talk.

OH and I'm almost 100% certain Goodman makes an R410 a-coil that would fit this old air handler.

[nstygma]

i think the term you were looking for is compressor.
how do you know the leak is in the a-coil and not some other place?

so you've got a 4ton unit with 3/8 & 7/8 lines. wholesale price from Johnstone Supply for an uncased coil for that is basically $415 and a new 410a copeland scroll compressor (http://www.johnstonesupply.com/storefront/product-view.ep?pID=B73-115) is $820. so much hassle to replace them though, then what if it doesn't work properly?

better to have peace of mind for the next decade+ with a new system & warranty.

[Chief Roundup]

I know the coils need to be replaced, they are the problem. It's just a question of replacing them and staying R22 or replacing the evap/coils AND replacing the heat pump's condenser to go R410 ... if that is even possible... or replacing the whole system inside and out.

One of the biggest issues is the placement of the air handler.. I honestly have no clue how they got it installed in the first place. It is huge and the the access is not.

You cannot mix a 410a system with a r-22 system in any manner. Those refrigerants have different boil points so they will change from a liquid to a gas state at different pressures. They also use different expansion valves. The refrigerants operate at completely different pressures. The 410a is a lot higher pressure. If you put a 410a compressor on a r-22 indoor coil the compressor would blow out the u bends in the indoor A coil.
Yes they should upgrade because it will be cost prohibitive in the future if they do not. The drop in replacement for R-22 is more expensive than 410a. 410a refrigerant will only get cheaper. That replacement for the R-22 will continue to get more expensive because there is and will continue to be less and less in use.

[Chief Roundup]

Yeah I can see this point... but I'm just thinking that the R22/R410 closed "system" is basically [evap/coils - lines - condenser]. I just can't see how the blower motor or electric heater element or any other parts of the air handler or heat pump would make a difference. Which is why my thought is that replacing the condenser and evap/coils would be all that was needed unless there is some crazy difference in the line sizes.

I finally remembered I have a buddy who does this for a living in Austin who I have sent a message to. Hopefully he can set me straight. I have a sneaking feeling the costs will be about the same no matter on this.

Interesting guy who has been doing this for years after retiring from profession bull riding. He even came back for a while and tried the "senior" circuit.

A lot of the differences are also in cabinet size. To get the higher efficiency ratings that the gov is forcing on everyone they have had to make the coils bigger. Those coils will not fit into the older cabinets. The blower motors can be different or the same. That depends on whether they are going back with the same size of equipment. They going back with a 3 ton unit if they had a 3 ton unit previously. But there again. Why not replace the blower and strips and get some warranty. To replace a blower motor will cost around $500.

[Chief Roundup]

Ok, then it must be a heat pump with an electric backup furnace? You had me confused when you started talking about heating coils and blower motor. That's all part of the furnace and the heat pump system should be able to be replaced without touching that. The evap should be mounted in a plenum right above the furnace, it's not part of it.

Dude not true at all. The evaporator coil will ALWAYS be on the return side of the blower INSIDE the air handler cabinet when dealing with a heat pump.
A gas furnace will have the evap coil on the supply side of the heat exchanger but prior to the plenum box.

[Chief Roundup]

Oh hell, I've never even seen anything like that before, I can't even begin to tell you wtf you're up against.

This is what you see in homes up here:

http://www.comfortairtemp.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/100_3866.jpg

exactly what I was talking about. coil right on top of the gas furnace.

[Chief Roundup]

Thanks!

Yeah I knew you couldn't "convert" the outside condenser in the heat pump I was just thinking that since they have to replace the a-coil in the air handler (I'm assuming the a-coil and evap are same or am I way off here) that they could go with an a-coil that handles r410 (pretty sure the new Goodman's have same fittings) and go ahead and replace the heat pump's condenser as well. Or would you have to replace the entire heat pump?

I have no clue on the soldering, which obviously could be an issue.

Just so you know, the air handler is a Goodman A49-15, I think it may be from around 2000. Not sure on the make/model of heat pump but I know it was manufactured in July 2004.

As I have already informed you. You cannot put an R-22 coil or condenser with a 410a coil or condenser. Yes the evaporator coil is the same as an A , N or slab coil in the indoor unit.

If it is a Goodman unit replace the whole thing. Goodman products are the absolute bottom of the barrel.

[Chief Roundup]

Yep I know the Heat Pump IS the outside condenser unit. I was just referring to JUST the condenser part of the heat pump outside and not the whole shell and fan stuff. I am not doing a great job of communicating all of this! :D

Let me start over. I was thinking they could either A)replace a-coil as is and stay with R22 which is going to cost them a bunch to recharge. (something like $600 quoted to them just for recharge, I think) or B)replace a-coil with one for R410 and then of course they would have to replace the condenser in the heat pump outside to match. It sounds like you guys are saying that you don;t replace the condenser alone but the entire unit. Or of course C)replace the heat pump outside and the air handler inside which is going to be a massive job that I think will end up well over $6k or even $7k

I want to recommend option B if it is at all feasible, since in my mind I was thinking they could get away with a job costing closer to $3k and have basically the same result as option C but without the brand new warranties.

OK, let me know if my thinking is crazy talk.

OH and I'm almost 100% certain Goodman makes an R410 a-coil that would fit this old air handler.

Just to verify for you. You CANNOT use a 410a coil with a R-22 condenser/compressor. The bulb that the TXV, expansion valve, uses to control how much refrigerant the valve lets by is charged with 410a refrigerant. That bulb will either allow too much refrigerant by or not enough. The bulb is strapped to the copper lines in the coil. It is suppose to sense the temperature of the refrigerant flowing through the coil and open the valve the proper amount. Those temperatues need to be the same for the valve to operate correctly. Those temperatures will not be the same if you put 2 different refrigerants together. This will prohibit the unit from working correctly and cost them even more money.

[Chief Roundup]

Welding is the same. And you don't have to replace the copper lines as long as they are proper sized. They make a flush to prepare the old existing copper lines for the new refrigerant. It is however highly recommended that you replace them to protect your investment.

[ChiefaRoo]

Yep I know the Heat Pump IS the outside condenser unit. I was just referring to JUST the condenser part of the heat pump outside and not the whole shell and fan stuff. I am not doing a great job of communicating all of this! :D

Let me start over. I was thinking they could either A)replace a-coil as is and stay with R22 which is going to cost them a bunch to recharge. (something like $600 quoted to them just for recharge, I think) or B)replace a-coil with one for R410 and then of course they would have to replace the condenser in the heat pump outside to match. It sounds like you guys are saying that you don;t replace the condenser alone but the entire unit. Or of course C)replace the heat pump outside and the air handler inside which is going to be a massive job that I think will end up well over $6k or even $7k

I want to recommend option B if it is at all feasible, since in my mind I was thinking they could get away with a job costing closer to $3k and have basically the same result as option C but without the brand new warranties.

OK, let me know if my thinking is crazy talk.

OH and I'm almost 100% certain Goodman makes an R410 a-coil that would fit this old air handler.

Austin, after you burn/blow up your house give me a call and we'll go to 6th Street and I'll buy you a drink.

[AustinChief]

Austin, after you burn/blow up your house give me a call and we'll go to 6th Street and I'll buy you a drink.

haha, not MY house, this is for my parents in DFW

[ChiefaRoo]

haha, not MY house, this is for my parents in DFW

Offer still stands. Good Luck. :)

[AustinChief]

i think the term you were looking for is compressor.
how do you know the leak is in the a-coil and not some other place?

so you've got a 4ton unit with 3/8 & 7/8 lines. wholesale price from Johnstone Supply for an uncased coil for that is basically $415 and a new 410a copeland scroll compressor (http://www.johnstonesupply.com/storefront/product-view.ep?pID=B73-115) is $820. so much hassle to replace them though, then what if it doesn't work properly?

better to have peace of mind for the next decade+ with a new system & warranty.

DAMMIT.. absolutely correct. I was typing condenser when I meant compressor all this time. No wonder I was making no sense.

I personally don't know jack, I am going off what someone else told them. But apparently the a-coil is rusted out and leaking.

They are getting quoted $2200 to replace the current air handler and recharge the system. Of course this would all still be r-22. That just seems to me to be fairly steep even considering the recharge to be $600 of that.. that means just replacing the air handler is costing $1600.

They are getting quoted between $6 and $7k to pull it all out and replace with R410a system.

The whole thing is a bit of a clusterfuck to begin with. This system is just for the front of the house, basically 3 large rooms. The rest of the house is on a separate system.

[ChiefaRoo]

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/xfd2bd"></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfd2bd_220-221-volts-what-ever-it-takes_fun" target="_blank">220/221 volts What ever it takes.</a> <i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/UZI4you" target="_blank">UZI4you</a></i>

[Bugeater]

Dude not true at all. The evaporator coil will ALWAYS be on the return side of the blower INSIDE the air handler cabinet when dealing with a heat pump.
A gas furnace will have the evap coil on the supply side of the heat exchanger but prior to the plenum box.
Huh, one of the apartment complexes I used to work at had heat pumps with gas furnace auxiliaries, and they were set up the same way with evap on the supply side.

[Bugeater]

I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.

[AustinChief]

Just to verify for you. You CANNOT use a 410a coil with a R-22 condenser/compressor. The bulb that the TXV, expansion valve, uses to control how much refrigerant the valve lets by is charged with 410a refrigerant. That bulb will either allow too much refrigerant by or not enough. The bulb is strapped to the copper lines in the coil. It is suppose to sense the temperature of the refrigerant flowing through the coil and open the valve the proper amount. Those temperatues need to be the same for the valve to operate correctly. Those temperatures will not be the same if you put 2 different refrigerants together. This will prohibit the unit from working correctly and cost them even more money.

Yup I know you can't mix and match within the closed system. I was just typing the condenser when I meant compressor earlier and causing all sorts of confusion.

Their CORE dilemma (besides just trying to find the best most price effective solution) is that the air handler was likely installed during their last big kitchen remodel and now it doesn't appear there will be any way to replace the giant ass unit without some pretty big tearing up of things. In the end I think they are going to have to either A)just replace the a-coil and stick with R-22 for now and hope they are ready for another giant remodel when it comes time to replace everything or B)replace the a-coil and the heat pump outside to match to anew R410 system OR C) I just talked to my only buddy in Austin who is a big HVAC guy and he said given the screwed up situation what he would do is get a new slimmer air handler that would fit through the access panel and just cut the old on up in place to remove it and then upgrade the whole system to R410

[AustinChief]

I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.

No joke, at this rate it's worth it to take the EPA certification online($25) and just buy the stuff yourself.

[Chief Roundup]

Huh, one of the apartment complexes I used to work at had heat pumps with gas furnace auxiliaries, and they were set up the same way with evap on the supply side.

Yes but it is a gas furnace. Not an electric Heat Pump air handler.

[Chief Roundup]

Yup I know you can't mix and match within the closed system. I was just typing the condenser when I meant compressor earlier and causing all sorts of confusion.

Their CORE dilemma (besides just trying to find the best most price effective solution) is that the air handler was likely installed during their last big kitchen remodel and now it doesn't appear there will be any way to replace the giant ass unit without some pretty big tearing up of things. In the end I think they are going to have to either A)just replace the a-coil and stick with R-22 for now and hope they are ready for another giant remodel when it comes time to replace everything or B)replace the a-coil and the heat pump outside to match to anew R410 system OR C) I just talked to my only buddy in Austin who is a big HVAC guy and he said given the screwed up situation what he would do is get a new slimmer air handler that would fit through the access panel and just cut the old on up in place to remove it and then upgrade the whole system to R410

Yes they do make remodel specific cabinets. They work great, but sometimes the parts have to be different sizes or specs so if those parts have to be replaced it can be expensive. It is definitely an option to look into.
They might want to call the contractor that did the remodel and say a little something to them as well. They should have not put your folks in this situation.

[Chief Roundup]

I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.

Yeah companies are definitely trying to take advantage.

[Chief Roundup]

No joke, at this rate it's worth it to take the EPA certification online($25) and just buy the stuff yourself.

Damn that is cheap my license was $150. For the universal with the engineer certificate attached.

[AustinChief]

Damn that is cheap my license was $150. For the universal with the engineer certificate attached.

Well the one I looked up online was just 608 Type I .. basically just enough to be able to buy the stuff.

[plbrdude]

Dude not true at all. The evaporator coil will ALWAYS be on the return side of the blower INSIDE the air handler cabinet when dealing with a heat pump.
A gas furnace will have the evap coil on the supply side of the heat exchanger but prior to the plenum box.

on a newer one yes, but if you happen to run across a 30 yr old elect furnace or a touch older you will find the evap coil on the supply air side. people like to make lincoln squeal around here, i just charged a unit which is about a 35 yr old rheem elect furnace, 20k heat,and the a-coil sits on top in the supply air. tried to talkem into a new system, not yet they say. and no luck finding the leak.

[plbrdude]

As I have already informed you. You cannot put an R-22 coil or condenser with a 410a coil or condenser. Yes the evaporator coil is the same as an A , N or slab coil in the indoor unit.

If it is a Goodman unit replace the whole thing. Goodman products are the absolute bottom of the barrel.

goodman is not the bottom of the barrel, a quality install means alot. for some reason alot of hack jobs used goodmans. of course it's not the same as a train or lennox or maybe a york. but you need to go premium on those, they do make entry level stuff that goodman is as good as. they also brand some units with other names that are just plain cheap.

[nstygma]

i recently discovered this DIY product that seals minor leaks, i may give it a try soon. feedback on some pro boards seems pretty decent.
http://www.amazon.com/Cliplight-Super-Seal-HVACR/dp/B000KF5ZN2