CP knows TV better than WGA

[Baby Lee]

I am perfectly content for this to get moved to Media Center, or go nowhere whatsoever, but heck it's the offseason.

WGA has ranked all time TV writing.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=071d5a3277a5f31ad3e9b86451c8ea42&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hometheaterforum.com%2Ftopic%2F324103-wgas-top-101-tv-shows-for-writing%2F&v=1&libId=5d51d1ce-db42-4b4c-8c82-446ef0523b7e&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwga.org%2Fcontent%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fid%3D4925&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hometheaterforum.com%2Fforum%2F40-tv-programming%2F&title=WGA's%20Top%20101%20TV%20Shows%20(for%20Writing)%20-%20TV%20Programming%20-%20Home%20Theater%20Forum&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwga.org%2Fconte...lt.aspx%3Fid%3D4925&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13708054611639

They lump together variety shows, comedies, fake news, dramas, and mini-series.

I have some germinal, but pretty vociferous, beefs with this ranking, and would welcome gauging CP interest in working towards a forum consensus on re-ordering and replacing shows.

Ideally, there would be controls for how well participants defend their sumissions, how well they are acquainted with the material they opine on, and how much community support they gather. There might be a way to measure 'likes' and 'dislikes' of submissions and give sub-arguments a 'rep' that affects how much traction/weight they are given.

Ideally, over time we would gather data to create our own top 101. With a lot of healthy discussion, reminiscence, education, and debate along the way.

Partially out of coding/social media niavete, and more in at least the initial wish to not weigh in too quickly with my own beefs, I'd cede control of the discussion and tabulation to interested parties. Though I'd be amenible to assisting in any record keeping, rudimentary organization of the endeavor that would arise.

Disqus.

[Thig Lyfe]

People here mostly just watch CBS sitcoms and Fox News.

[Pablo]

People here mostly just watch CBS sitcoms and Fox News.CMON MAN, TWO AND A HALF MEN IS STILL FUNNY!!!

[|Zach|]

I am probably making West Wing higher and not making MASH so prominent.

[Baby Lee]

I few cursory observations to seed discussion.

Why Homeland and ESPECIALLY 24 so much higher than Justified? Love Homeland, but love Justified just as much and they are in similar places in their arcs and their newness on the scene.

Too many sitcoms above the UK Office, 30 Rock and Friends in particular.

Deadwood far too low. Star Trek OS way too high.

How much is GoT based on delivered material and how much on known plotlines to come.

Similarly did Lonesome Dove get downgraded by sequels [canonical to McMurtry notwithstanding] or even non-produced McMurtry additional writing.

Contemporary-centric? America-centric?

Is it even fair to compared limited run to long-running [in some cases, six hours to decades].

Should a show be judged by it's highs/lows or overall quality.

[Thig Lyfe]

CMON MAN, TWO AND A HALF MEN IS STILL FUNNY!!!

:-|

[Sannyasi]

I love Mad Men but should it really be that high when we don't know how it is going to finish yet? Its a great show, but better writing than The Wire and Cheers?

[cosmo20002]

Friends is horrible, and Saturday Night Live should be on a list of shows with the worst writing. I'll give 'em credit for 1 clever sketch per episode (which is a stretch some weeks), maybe 2 in election season. That's maybe 5-10 minutes of a 90-min show. Not a good batting average.

[Bob Dole]

Bob Newhart Show and Fawlty Towers should be much higher. And the Newhart should have made the list.

And no My Name is Earl? WTF?

[Demonpenz]

Chiefs fans love my name is earl because we can all relate to white trash racists.

[Bob Dole]

Chiefs fans love my name is earl because we can all relate to white trash racists.

Or because it is really well written.

Or because we posted it in the wrong thread the first time around...

[milkman]

Didn't we already cover this ground with Rain Man's polls a few months ago?

[mnchiefsguy]

No way Friends should be ranked that high (#24)...BSG was a much more well written show, and it only ranked 38th.

[Stewie]

Barney Miller should be much higher. A great cast of characters and excellent writing.

[Rain Man]

I am probably making West Wing higher and not making MASH so prominent.

Some that jumped out at me on the down side are that MASH hasn't aged well, and with its premise it should. I don't think Mary Tyler Moore and I Love Lucy have aged particularly well, either, though they're still worthy of the list.

The biggest snub I see is Barney Miller at 76. Should be much higher. And I agree that My Name is Earl might deserve a spot on the list. Soap is always too low on these lists, too.

[Stewie]

My favorite Barney Miller conversation of all time was in regards to anarchy in the streets.

Yemana: What does anarchy mean?
Dietrich: It's when everyone runs around doing whatever they want.
Yemana: OH! Like the Jets!

[blaise]

Frasier should be higher than All In the Family or Cheers. I never watched mush West Wing. That Sorkin style is too annoying for me. South Park's writing surpassed the Simpson's, I believe.

As far as Friends - I can see how people don't like the show, but the writing is very good, in my opinion.

And to save you the "you mean smart?" joke about Sorkin. No, that's not what I mean.

MASH loses points for me because it became this self righteous whiny vehicle for Alda.

[keg in kc]

Debating what belongs where aside, it's amazing to me how much of the list is comprised of shows from the last 20 years. It'll be interesting to think back on this in 30 years. We may well be in the golden age of television right now.

[Baby Lee]

Didn't we already cover this ground with Rain Man's polls a few months ago?

That will prove a valuable reference, but it was an elimination tournament, and didn't focus on writing.

Debating what belongs where aside, it's amazing to me how much of the list is comprised of shows from the last 20 years. It'll be interesting to think back on this in 30 years. We may well be in the golden age of television right now.

One thing I'd love to see is elder statesmen or afficianados of classic TV touting seminal developments from before we youngsters were watching.

[Rain Man]

My favorite Barney Miller conversation of all time was in regards to anarchy in the streets.

Yemana: What does anarchy mean?
Dietrich: It's when everyone runs around doing whatever they want.
Yemana: OH! Like the Jets!

ROFL I don't remember that line.

[Rain Man]

Debating what belongs where aside, it's amazing to me how much of the list is comprised of shows from the last 20 years. It'll be interesting to think back on this in 30 years. We may well be in the golden age of television right now.

My suspicion is more that recent shows more accurately reflect national moods, attitudes, and tastes. I bet 50 years from now the past two decades won't have any more shows than earlier decades.

[Baby Lee]

My suspicion is more that recent shows more accurately reflect national moods, attitudes, and tastes. I bet 50 years from now the past two decades won't have any more shows than earlier decades.

Maybe it's growing up segregated from late 70s to mid 80s TV almost totally. But I sense a trend of early groundbreaking TV [Lucy, Andy Griffith], socially conscious sitcoms in the mid70s [mostly in retrospect, I mean the gave the TV to Goodwill when I was in the 1st grade], such as AitF, One Day at a Time, Mray Tyler Moore.

Then there was a huge dip in overall quality. sitcoms didn't recover until Cosby, drama until L.A Law, OK maybe Moonlighting.

The Sopranos, with the season arc and the anti-hero just plain blew everything WIIIDDDDEE open, and drama has been reaping the rewards ever since. Seinfeld did the same for elevating the sitcom beyond just quality traditional sitcoms to innovations in the form.

And of course CABLE, and coming on strong the opportunities to hone craft in podcast, streaming shows, and sponsored streaming content such as Hulu Plus and Netflix, makes the debate akin to whether travel REALLY is easier on an 8-lane Interstate than Route 66.

With islands of outliers, there is a clear trend to suggest that there is vastly more quality TV then ever at present.


Even in the muddling middle, I'd submit that say a Castle would fare better critically than say Hart to Hart, in any era [unless it was an era so traditional that it'd suffer for modern frankness and sexuality].

[blaise]

The thing I always liked about Seinfeld was that there was no attempt at anything other than comedy. No special episode. No tender moment. Ne message. Just comedy. It's the first one that I remember taking it to that extreme.

[Baby Lee]

The thing I always liked about Seinfeld was that there was no attempt at anything other than comedy. No special episode. No tender moment. Ne message. Just comedy. It's the first one that I remember taking it to that extreme.

There was a 1-2 episode 'will they, wont they' very subtly hinted at between Jerry and Elaine early on. Quickly snuffed.

[cosmo20002]

Frasier should be higher than All In the Family or Cheers. I never watched mush West Wing. That Sorkin style is too annoying for me. South Park's writing surpassed the Simpson's, I believe.

And to save you the "you mean smart?" joke about Sorkin. No, that's not what I mean.



Posting this mostly because I think it will annoy you that you agree with me.

I CAN'T STAND that Sorkin writing. I would like to like that Newsroom show on HBO, but I just find the dialogue so grating. The phony quick-fire back-and-forth way the people talk to each other, like they are a comedy team knowing they are setting up the other one for the next quick witty line.

[blaise]

There was a 1-2 episode 'will they, wont they' very subtly hinted at between Jerry and Elaine early on. Quickly snuffed.

There was also a little theme song that was snuffed out.

[blaise]

Most of the sitcoms from the 80's, if you watched them now, would be more tame than most of Nickelodeon or Disney's original programming.

[cosmo20002]

My suspicion is more that recent shows more accurately reflect national moods, attitudes, and tastes. I bet 50 years from now the past two decades won't have any more shows than earlier decades.

Plus the people who put together the lists are always going to be of a certain age group and are naturally going to be more familiar with and have more affection for the shows they grew up on.

[Baby Lee]

Posting this mostly because I think it will annoy you that you agree with me.

I CAN'T STAND that Sorkin writing. I would like to like that Newsroom show on HBO, but I just find the dialogue so grating. The phony quick-fire back-and-forth way the people talk to each other, like they are a comedy team knowing they are setting up the other one for the next quick witty line.

Let's not forget Studio 60, the absolute funnest TV show ever to snark on.

"IN A FIELD IN AFGHANISTAN!!!"


Newsroom ROFL - 'Bigfoot is trending on The Facebook' or some shit like that.

[BlackHelicopters]

WKRP was under rated

[Baby Lee]

Plus the people who put together the lists are always going to be of a certain age group and are naturally going to be more familiar with and have more affection for the shows they grew up on.

Tell that to Leonard Maltin. ;)

[cosmo20002]

The thing I always liked about Seinfeld was that there was no attempt at anything other than comedy. No special episode. No tender moment. Ne message. Just comedy. It's the first one that I remember taking it to that extreme.

Also, I think the finale (which I would admit was only good and not great) got so much flack because there wasn't a typical series finale. There was no character moving away, no one starting a new life in some way, no babies born, no tearjerker moment. No wedding. I remember at the time hearing people predict that Jerry and Elaine would get married. Its like they never even watched the show.

[Baby Lee]

Also, I think the finale (which I would admit was only good and not great) got so much flack because there wasn't a typical series finale. There was no character moving away, no one starting a new life in some way, no babies born, no tearjerker moment. No wedding. I remember at the time hearing people predict that Jerry and Elaine would get married. Its like they never even watched the show.

It also demonstrated how little Bill Maher understood scripted TV.

He griped a little while before the show ended that there were never consequences for the ensembles horrible behavior.

Bull-effing-Shit!!

The sine qua non of the entire show was that every one of their behaviors, intentionally or inadvertently horrible, had consequences. The trial in the finale was a compendium of their misdeeds, no matter how slight or remote.

Difference was, they didn't care. They took their lumps and headed off to lunch.

[milkman]

Plus the people who put together the lists are always going to be of a certain age group and are naturally going to be more familiar with and have more affection for the shows they grew up on.

If they are of my age group, and they have any affection for the shows they grew up on, they're morons.

TV through the 60's, 70's and 80's sucked ass, for the most part.

[blaise]

It also demonstrated how little Bill Maher understood scripted TV.

He griped a little while before the show ended that there were never consequences for the ensembles horrible behavior.

Bull-effing-Shit!!

The sine qua non of the entire show was that every one of their behaviors, intentionally or inadvertently horrible, had consequences. The trial in the finale was a compendium of their misdeeds, no matter how slight or remote.

Difference was, they didn't care. They took their lumps and headed off to lunch.

If he really said that then he sucks.

[alanm]

Debating what belongs where aside, it's amazing to me how much of the list is comprised of shows from the last 20 years. It'll be interesting to think back on this in 30 years. We may well be in the golden age of television right now.A show shouldn't even be considered for these lists until their off the air for 5 yrs.

[Baby Lee]

A show shouldn't even be considered for these lists until their off the air for 5 yrs.

Only right now, upwards of 20% of the best television made is on air now.

[DaneMcCloud]

If they are of my age group, and they have any affection for the shows they grew up on, they're morons.

TV through the 60's, 70's and 80's sucked ass, for the most part.

The best TV shows of the 70's would rival or exceed the best free network shows of today.

In no particular order:

1. Carol Burnett
2. Bob Newhart
3. Mary Tyler Moore
4. Mork and Mindy
5. M*A*S*H
6. Doc (Barnard Hughes)
7. All in the Family
8. Good Times
9. Dallas
10. Happy Days
11. Taxi
12. Barney Miller
13. Welcome Back Kotter
14. WKRP in Cinncinati
15. Sanford and Son

[Baby Lee]

The best TV shows of the 70's would rival or exceed the best free network shows of today.

In no particular order:

1. Carol Burnett
2. Bob Newhart
3. Mary Tyler Moore
4. Mork and Mindy
5. M*A*S*H
6. Doc (Barnard Hughes)
7. All in the Family
8. Good Times
9. Dallas
10. Happy Days
11. Taxi
12. Barney Miller
13. Welcome Back Kotter
14. WKRP in Cinncinati
15. Sanford and Son

I'd put AD, P&R and New Girl above all but AitF, Taxi and Newhart. Community, and the cancelled 30 Rock and Happy Endings [for now] are up there with them.

[milkman]

The best TV shows of the 70's would rival or exceed the best free network shows of today.

In no particular order:

1. Carol Burnett
2. Bob Newhart
3. Mary Tyler Moore
4. Mork and Mindy
5. M*A*S*H
6. Doc (Barnard Hughes)
7. All in the Family
8. Good Times
9. Dallas
10. Happy Days
11. Taxi
12. Barney Miller
13. Welcome Back Kotter
14. WKRP in Cinncinati
15. Sanford and Son

I didn't hate those shows, and early M.A.S.H., along with Barney Miller and Taxi were good shows.

The rest were mind numbingly stupid in many ways.

There's a reason the TV became known as the idiot box.

Oh, and Newhart was classic.

[keg in kc]

There isn't much on "free network TV" these days, because they still try to cater to wide audiences. The good stuff is all on cable, and it has been for at least the last 15 years. Although that's changing slowly as networks include a few shows that emulate what's been successful on cable (Hannibal's probably the most recent example of that).

[Direckshun]

Some of my favorite TV shows were only funny for a couple seasons before the magic wore off.

See: Futurama, Community, Simpsons.

Makes lists like this really, really hard to put up.

[Baby Lee]

Posting this mostly because I think it will annoy you that you agree with me.

I CAN'T STAND that Sorkin writing. I would like to like that Newsroom show on HBO, but I just find the dialogue so grating. The phony quick-fire back-and-forth way the people talk to each other, like they are a comedy team knowing they are setting up the other one for the next quick witty line.

Just saw the new ad for Newsroom, and Bigfoot guy calls OWS 'the American Arab spring.'

Yeesh!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X5pV325adgw/T7pxZRl8WiI/AAAAAAAABYg/PXIgLycfURI/s1600/wiig1.jpg

[blaise]

Posting this mostly because I think it will annoy you that you agree with me.

I CAN'T STAND that Sorkin writing. I would like to like that Newsroom show on HBO, but I just find the dialogue so grating. The phony quick-fire back-and-forth way the people talk to each other, like they are a comedy team knowing they are setting up the other one for the next quick witty line.

Totally agree. No that doesn't annoy me. Yeah, it's just too slick and phony and "Oh, look how clever we all are!"

[Baby Lee]

Totally agree. No that doesn't annoy me. Yeah, it's just too slick and phony and "Oh, look how clever we all are!"

I heard they do it all while walking, too.