2014 Semifinalists for the Hall of Fame

[Rain Man]

You can add Claude Humphrey and Ray Guy as the senior candidates.

This seems like a pretty weak pool to me. Will Shields should go in this year without a doubt.

http://www.profootballhof.com/football-hall-of-fame-2014-semifinalists.aspx


The Hall of Fame’s Selection Committee chose the 25 modern-era semifinalists from the previously announced list of 126 nominees.

Four first-year eligible candidates – linebacker Derrick Brooks, coach Tony Dungy, wide receiver Marvin Harrison, and tackle Walter Jones – are among the 25 semifinalists being considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2014.

In addition to the first-year eligible nominees, two other previously eligible candidates, coach Jimmy Johnson and guard Steve Wisniewski, made it to the semifinalist list for the first time. Each of the remaining individuals on the Selection Committee’s list has been a semifinalist at least once prior to this year.

2014 SEMIFINALISTS



Morten Andersen, K – 1982-1994 New Orleans Saints, 1995-2000, 2006-07 Atlanta Falcons, 2001 New York Giants, 2002-03 Kansas City Chiefs, 2004 Minnesota Vikings
Steve Atwater, S – 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets
Jerome Bettis, RB – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers
Derrick Brooks, LB – 1995-2008 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Tim Brown, WR/KR – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Don Coryell, Coach – 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers
Roger Craig, RB – 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-93 Minnesota Vikings
Terrell Davis, RB – 1995-2001 Denver Broncos
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers
Tony Dungy, Coach – 1996-2001 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2002-08 Indianapolis Colts
Kevin Greene, LB/DE – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
Charles Haley, DE/LB – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
Marvin Harrison, WR – 1996-2008 Indianapolis Colts
Joe Jacoby, T – 1981-1993 Washington Redskins
Jimmy Johnson, Coach – 1989-1993 Dallas Cowboys, 1996-99 Miami Dolphins
Walter Jones, – T – 1997-2008 Seattle Seahawks
John Lynch, FS – 1993-2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2004-07 Denver Broncos
Karl Mecklenburg, LB – 1983-1994 Denver Broncos
Andre Reed, WR – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Will Shields, G – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs
Michael Strahan, DE – 1993-2007 New York Giants
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League
Aeneas Williams, CB/S – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams
Steve Wisniewski, G – 1989-2001 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders
George Young, Contributor – 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League

[hometeam]

Guys that certainly deserve it -

Brooks
Greene
Strahan
Tagliabue
Coryell
Anderson

Not saying they are all first ballot or will go. just IMO

[Rausch]

It's time for Bettis to go in.

His style wasn't sexy.

Agreed.

Every year that goes by his odds go down because people forget how dominant he was.

No HB ever initiated more contact, and won, than Bettis.

No HB was ever as effective at demoralizing a defense as Bettis in his prime. He'd be held down, 2.2 ypc, then he'd bust a hole he was supposed to be too bit or too slow to hit and run over 2 or 3 guys.

In the 90's Bettis WAS the fantasy HB. He'd get a guaranteed 80+ a TD. That was the rock you based a team on...

[Rausch]

Kevin Greene not getting in already is fucking retarded.

I'm not even going to pimp that. I'll assume he's in...

[Rausch]

Aeneas Williams and Shields will get pushed back because of other guys who should have already made it in.

Even though they both deserve it...

[Dayze]

Kevin Greene not getting in already is ****ing retarded.

I'm not even going to pimp that. I'll assume he's in...

this.

[Garcia Bronco]

Tim Brown
Paul Tags
Terrell Davis
Ray Guy
Karl Mecklenberg

[DaneMcCloud]

Strahan, Shields, Jones, Coryell, Brooks.

Senior: Ray Guy.

[DaneMcCloud]

Tim Brown
Paul Tags
Terrell Davis
Ray Guy
Karl Mecklenberg

LMAO

Those guys before Super Bowl winners Brooks and Strahan?

No.

[Garcia Bronco]

It's time for Bettis to go in.

His style wasn't sexy.



At no time was/is Bettis a HoF runningback.

[DaneMcCloud]

It's time for Bettis to go in.

His style wasn't sexy.

Agreed.

Every year that goes by his odds go down because people forget how dominant he was.

No HB ever initiated more contact, and won, than Bettis.

No HB was ever as effective at demoralizing a defense as Bettis in his prime. He'd be held down, 2.2 ypc, then he'd bust a hole he was supposed to be too bit or too slow to hit and run over 2 or 3 guys.

In the 90's Bettis WAS the fantasy HB. He'd get a guaranteed 80+ a TD. That was the rock you based a team on...

No, not before Strahan, Jones, Shields, Don fucking Coryell or Derrick Brooks.

[Molitoth]

Tim Brown
Paul Tags
Terrell Davis
Ray Guy
Karl Mecklenberg

I'm sorry but Terrell Davis is not HOF worthy in todays standards, imo.

[DaneMcCloud]

Guys that certainly deserve it -

Brooks
Greene
Strahan
Tagliabue
Coryell
Anderson

Not saying they are all first ballot or will go. just IMO

There's only ONE kicker in the NFL HOF.

And Tagliabue can fuck himself.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm sorry but Terrell Davis is not HOF worthy in todays standards, imo.

Tim Brown before Andre Reed?

ROFL

[Garcia Bronco]

LMAO

Those guys before Super Bowl winners Brooks and Strahan?

No.

This isn't about Super Bowl wins. If it is...then a number of people need to come out

Tim Brown - The second best WR of his era with #1 being the GOAT
Paul Tags - The best Commish the league has ever had
Terrell Davis - Dominated the league and was the best runningback in football for 3 straight years with Barry Sanders in the league
Ray Guy - Should already be in, one of the best punters in NFL history
Karl Mecklenberg - okay...this one is pure bias, but he was a great linebacker in the league

[Garcia Bronco]

I'm sorry but Terrell Davis is not HOF worthy in todays standards, imo.

And neither iis Gayle Sayers, but he's in there.

[DaneMcCloud]

This isn't about Super Bowl wins. If it is...then a number of people need to come out

Tim Brown - The second best WR of his era.
Paul Tags - The best Commish the league has ever had
Terrell Davis - Dominated the league and was the best runningback in football for 3 straight years with Barry Sanders in the league
Ray Guy - Should already be in, one of the best punters in NFL history
Karl Mecklenberg - okay...this one is pure bias, but he was a great linebacker in the league

Bullshit. Everything is about Super Bowl wins.

Tim Brown has no business in the HOF if Andre Reed isn't there.

Terrell Davis? LMAO

Tags was garbage. The press hated him.

Mecklenberg is not a HOFer.

[Rausch]

At no time was/is Bettis a HoF runningback.

His numbers and production are top 5 all time.

ALL TIME...

[Dayze]

Derrick Brooks
Marvin Harrison
and Kevin Green are the stand-outs from that list for me.

*edit*...Andre Reed (didn't see him the first time through)

[Rausch]

Bullshit. Everything is about Super Bowl wins.


No, the HOF is about recognizing the individual.

[Rain Man]

My thoughts on deserving guys (in order):

Will Shields - Come on. 12 pro bowls and you've made the guy wait for two years, and you let that slug Jonathan Ogden push ahead of him last year. No-brainer as the #1 pick.

Morten Andersen - Arguably the best kicker in the history of the NFL. The dominant long-range kicker of his era and scored a zillion points.

Joe Jacoby - I wasn't a Redskins fan, but this guy was the best lineman of his era. Absolutely dominant run blocker.

Kevin Greene - Time to let this guy in.

Aeneas Williams - I think he deserves it. I screwed up and didn't vote for him, but I'd add it.

Guys who I think will go in, but not this year: Brooks, Tagliabue (it's a given), and Marvin Harrison (who might be first ballot if he didn't engage in gunplay). Oh, and add Coryell into that group as a late edit. In a weak year, Charles Haley, Walter Jones, and Roger Craig might slip in, with Jones being the best of that group. None of the others should make it.

On the senior ballot, I think it's time to put Guy in. I don't think he was a better punter than Jerrell Wilson, but Guy has the reputation and should break the apartheid on punters in the HoF. Claude Humphrey was very good, but I don't think he's a HoFer.

[DaneMcCloud]

And neither iis Gayle Sayers, but he's in there.

Different era, multi-purpose player.

Davis was a very good running back for a few years but injuries limited his potential.

That doesn't make him a HOFer, especially when compared to dominating players with longevity (Jones, Shields, Reed).

[Garcia Bronco]

Bullshit. Everything is about Super Bowl wins.
.

Not relative to the Hof. If we were assigning say franchise worth in the NFL then Super Bowls wins would matter. We would put a 40 year cap on it though. Oh shit...NM...then you and your team would lose again. :P

[Rausch]

No, not before Strahan, Jones, Shields, Don ****ing Coryell or Derrick Brooks.

I'd put Bettis in before Shields.

Bettis was a true freak. Once in a generation (or more) guy.

I'd also put him in before Brooks and fuck Strahan...

[DaneMcCloud]

No, the HOF is about recognizing the individual.

Not really.

The voters seem to favor guys with rings over individual achievements, which is why it took five long years for DT and two years and counting for Will Shields.

[Garcia Bronco]

Different era, multi-purpose player.

Davis was a very good running back for a few years but injuries limited his potential.

That doesn't make him a HOFer, especially when compared to dominating players with longevity (Jones, Shields, Reed).

Davis was the greatest in the league. Its okay...you can admit it. Just like I can say that Shields was a great lineman. But any great RB, like Davis, should be ahead of any lineman.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'd put Bettis in before Shields.

Bettis was a true freak. Once in a generation (or more) guy.

I'd also put him in before Brooks and fuck Strahan...

Wow, fully disagree.

If you put in Bettis, then you have to put in Eddie George.

Is Eddie George a HOFer?

[Garcia Bronco]

His numbers and production are top 5 all time.

ALL TIME...

Only because he hung around forever. If we're going to use the longevity against some like TD, then it should be used against someone like Bettis.

[Dayze]

Wow, fully disagree.

If you put in Bettis, then you have to put in Eddie George.

Is Eddie George a HOFer?

this is a damned good point.

[DaneMcCloud]

Davis was the greatest in the league. Its okay...you can admit it. Just like I can say that Shields was a great lineman. But any great RB, like Davis, should be ahead of any lineman.

Your knowledge of the NFL would fit in a thimble with room to spare

[Dayze]

I think HOF Running backs are few and far between any more.

[Rain Man]

Davis was the greatest in the league. Its okay...you can admit it. Just like I can say that Shields was a great lineman. But any great RB, like Davis, should be ahead of any lineman.

He was definitely better than Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson.

I kind of wish that there was a "Hall of Seasons" where we could put dominant seasons into the Hall as a sort of junior varsity. Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes are both guys who should get credit for having short runs of absolute dominance, but I don't think their full body of work is big enough to immortalize their entire career.

[Rain Man]

I think HOF Running backs are few and far between any more.

Yeah, it's hard for me to put second-tier backs alongside guys like Barry Sanders or O.J. (pre-murder) or Walter Payton or even Tony Dorsett. As good as they were, you can't look at a guy like Bettis or Davis and say that they're in the same category.

[ciaomichael]

Can't believe Ray Guy isn't already in it.

Tony Dungy? Are you kidding me? That guy was a pretty good "players" coach", but never to the level of a HOF coach.

[Rausch]

Only because he hung around forever. If we're going to use the longevity against some like TD, then it should be used against someone like Bettis.

His 2nd most memorable moment ever might be once he was fare beyond his prime.

He fucking RUINED Urlacher and two other defenders on his way to the end zone on two completely fucked knees.

BEFORE his last season he had a lift chair installed in his house...

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Tags, simply because he's not Goodell.

[DaneMcCloud]

I think HOF Running backs are few and far between any more.

Adrian Peterson is 28 years old and has been a beast during his career.

He has less than half the total yardage of Emmit Smith.

[Dayze]

Point is, how many HOF RBs come out; probably like 1 every 15 years?

[DaneMcCloud]

Tags, simply because he's not Goodell.

Yeah, I really liked the part where he held cities and taxpayers hostage in order to get new publicly funded stadiums for billionaire owners.

[HemiEd]

Shields
Strahan
Coryell
Bettis
Harrison


It makes me want to puke on my shoes, but Ray Guy as the senior.

[DaneMcCloud]

Point is, how many HOF RBs come out; probably like 1 every 15 years?

With the diminished importance of running backs, I think it'll be a long time before we see another enter the Hall of Fame.

It's going to be QB's, pass rushers, left tackles and the occasional linebacker/wide receiver for the foreseeable future.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Yeah, I really liked the part where he held cities and taxpayers hostage in order to get new publicly funded stadiums for billionaire owners.

That's legitimate business/Rocco

Anywho, I really liked the part where he didn't pussy up the game and try to play mass-marketing guru to the world.

[DaneMcCloud]

That's legitimate business/Rocco

Anywho, I really liked the part where he didn't pussy up the game and try to play mass-marketing guru to the world.

Sure he did.

NFL Europe?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Sure he did.

NFL Europe?

And Goodell did not learn from this.

[DaneMcCloud]

And Goodell did not learn from this.

I hate Tagliabue. He fought free agency (Plan B, anyone?), held cities hostage and acted like a fucking dick, 24-7.

I know people seem to hate Goodell but most of his actions come from Tagliabue looking the other way, especially in regards to concussions.

That said, expansion to Europe is dumb. NFL Europe failed. And what team wants to fly to Europe, which can take a minimum of 12 hours from the West Coast, to play a game at Wembley?

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

True.

[DaneMcCloud]

True.

He also fucked Cleveland by allowing Modell to leave for Baltimore, then made Cleveland wait years before getting a new franchise, which has been fucked in the years since.

He allowed the Rams and Raiders to move, uncontested, the Oilers to move, uncontested and put an NFL Franchise in JACKSONVILLE.

He was a piece of shit.

[Halfcan]

I'm sorry but Terrell Davis is not HOF worthy in todays standards, imo.

Exactly expecially since he ran behind a line coated with cooking spray.

[Dayze]

With the diminished importance of running backs, I think it'll be a long time before we see another enter the Hall of Fame.

It's going to be QB's, pass rushers, left tackles and the occasional linebacker/wide receiver for the foreseeable future.

agree 100%.

[htismaqe]

Only 3 Broncos?

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Kevin Greene (As others have mentioned, I have no idea how this guy is still not in the Hall of Fame. He is third all time in sacks. Should have been a first-ballot guy.)
Michael Strahan
Derrick Brooks
Will Shields
Marvin Harrison

[kcxiv]

Its a hard list,
i picked

Tim Brow
Andre Reed
Will Shields (homer pick)
Michael Strahan
Marvin Harrison

I also want Kevin Greene in there Canonly pick 5 and i should have went with Greene over Harrison, but he deserves it as well. lol

Hard to pick just 5.

[Garcia Bronco]

Your knowledge of the NFL would fit in a thimble with room to spare


Thanks! I appreciate you too.


:shake:

[MahiMike]

Saw Terrell Davis on NFL AM trying to sell himself. This was right after he referred to the Broncos as "WE" won.

Fuck that guy!

[Garcia Bronco]

He also ****ed Cleveland by allowing Modell to leave for Baltimore, then made Cleveland wait years before getting a new franchise, which has been ****ed in the years since.

He allowed the Rams and Raiders to move, uncontested, the Oilers to move, uncontested and put an NFL Franchise in JACKSONVILLE.

He was a piece of shit.

Man...that sounds like a bunch of nonsense.

[DaneMcCloud]

Its a hard list,
i picked

Tim Brow
Andre Reed
Will Shields (homer pick)
Michael Strahan
Marvin Harrison

I also want Kevin Greene in there Canonly pick 5 and i should have went with Greene over Harrison, but he deserves it as well. lol

Hard to pick just 5.

I can't see three wide receivers out of five potential slots in one year.

[DaneMcCloud]

Man...that sounds like a bunch of nonsense.

You're a fucking retard.

Thanks for proving it, once again.

Karl Mecklenberg.

ROFL

[DaneMcCloud]

Will Shields (homer pick)


Will Shields played 14 years in the NFL. He was a 12 time Pro Bowler, an 8 time All Pro and a member of the All Decade team of the 2000's.

Regardless of whether or not you're a Chiefs fan or Chiefs "Homer", Will Shields belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

[ThaVirus]

With the diminished importance of running backs, I think it'll be a long time before we see another enter the Hall of Fame.

It's going to be QB's, pass rushers, left tackles and the occasional linebacker/wide receiver for the foreseeable future.

Ladainian Tomlinson will get in. Easily.

When will he be eligible?

[Imon Yourside]

This isn't about Super Bowl wins. If it is...then a number of people need to come out

Tim Brown - The second best WR of his era with #1 being the GOAT
Paul Tags - The best Commish the league has ever had
Terrell Davis - Dominated the league and was the best runningback in football for 3 straight years with Barry Sanders in the league
Ray Guy - Should already be in, one of the best punters in NFL history
Karl Mecklenberg - okay...this one is pure bias, but he was a great linebacker in the league

I like your takes generally but come on...Terrell Davis? Your crisco line dominated for 3 years I could have run through those holes. Priest Holmes > Terrell Davis. I agree on Brown and Taglibue.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ladainian Tomlinson will get in. Easily.

When will he be eligible?

Then Bettis will get in as well, because there numbers are nearly identical.

Which means Eddie George will get in, too, right?

[Sofa King]

Strahan, Shields, Tim Brown, Morten Anderson, Ray Guy

[DaneMcCloud]

I like your takes generally but come on...Terrell Davis? Your crisco line dominated for 3 years I could have run through those holes. Priest Holmes > Terrell Davis. I agree on Brown and Taglibue.

Terrell Davis is a dumb argument.

He played in 78 games. Priest Holmes played in 104.

Davis total yards (rushing and receiving): 8,887 yards, 85 TD's.

Holmes total yards (rushing and receiving): 11,134 with 94 TD's.

No one is advocating Holmes for the Hall of Fame.

[warrior]

Will Shields played 14 years in the NFL. He was a 12 time Pro Bowler, an 8 time All Pro and a member of the All Decade team of the 2000's.

Regardless of whether or not you're a Chiefs fan or Chiefs "Homer", Will Shields belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.



Should have been first ballot even though he was a guard, Will never missed a game in 14 years he also filled in at left tackle several times doing a fine job. One of my favorite chiefs

[ThaVirus]

Then Bettis will get in as well, because there numbers are nearly identical.

Which means Eddie George will get in, too, right?

What the hell, Dane? Here I am thinking we've made some progress and there you go saying some stupid shit like that..

Bettis has NO WHERE near the HOF resume LT has and the only number that's "identical" is their career rushing yards totals at 13,684 to 13,662- advantage LT.

LT had more yards on less carries and games played (he averaged nearly a half yard more per carry than Bettis), more than three times as many receiving yards, and 68 more TDs. That's a big one.

LT fumbled the ball, on average, once every 126 touches to Bettis's 89. LT averaged a TD every 23 touches to Bettis's 39.

LT had three seasons of 1,500+ rushing yards to Bettis's one.

LT had three seasons of 2,000+ yards from scrimmage. Bettis never even came close.

LT had a season in which he amassed 1600+ rushing yards AND 100 receptions. That's incredible. Bettis never had a season in which he caught more than 31 passes.

LT broke the single season TD record with 31. Bettis's best season TD-wise was 13.

[Garcia Bronco]

I like your takes generally but come on...Terrell Davis? Your crisco line dominated for 3 years I could have run through those holes. Priest Holmes > Terrell Davis. I agree on Brown and Taglibue.

Davis not only out performed Sanders during that time...he also out performed Emmitt Smith during that same span. Marshall Faulk never out performed TD on the ground.

He gained 2000 yards on the ground while missing almost 2 full games in bench time because the Broncos were so far ahead.

come on...this guy deserves it.

[Garcia Bronco]

You're a ****ing retard.

Thanks for proving it, once again.

Karl Mecklenberg.

ROFL

It is a bunch of nonsense. Just like your life and your friends. It's why you struggle to communicate with others, and ultimately why no one likes you.

[Garcia Bronco]

Terrell Davis is a dumb argument.

He played in 78 games. Priest Holmes played in 104.

Davis total yards (rushing and receiving): 8,887 yards, 85 TD's.

Holmes total yards (rushing and receiving): 11,134 with 94 TD's.

No one is advocating Holmes for the Hall of Fame.

But that's obviously not the whole story is it

TD, in 2 seasons ran for over 1000 yards...in the playoffs...with 8 straight 100 yards games with a SB MVP and a league MVP and 11 touch downs.

Good NFL Runningbacks don't do that. Hall of Fame runningbacks do.

[DaneMcCloud]

It is a bunch of nonsense. Just like your life and your friends. It's why you struggle to communicate with others, and ultimately why no one likes you.

What?


LMAO

[DaneMcCloud]

But that's obviously not the whole story is it

TD, in 2 seasons ran for over 1000 yards...in the playoffs...with 8 straight 100 yards games with a SB MVP and a league MVP and 11 touch downs.

Good NFL Runningbacks don't do that. Hall of Fame runningbacks do.

Not gonna happen.

[DaneMcCloud]

What the hell, Dane? Here I am thinking we've made some progress and there you go saying some stupid shit like that..

Bettis has NO WHERE near the HOF resume LT has and the only number that's "identical" is their career rushing yards totals at 13,684 to 13,662- advantage LT.

LT had more yards on less carries and games played (he averaged nearly a half yard more per carry than Bettis), more than three times as many receiving yards, and 68 more TDs. That's a big one.

LT fumbled the ball, on average, once every 126 touches to Bettis's 89. LT averaged a TD every 23 touches to Bettis's 39.

LT had three seasons of 1,500+ rushing yards to Bettis's one.

LT had three seasons of 2,000+ yards from scrimmage. Bettis never even came close.

LT had a season in which he amassed 1600+ rushing yards AND 100 receptions. That's incredible. Bettis never had a season in which he caught more than 31 passes.

LT broke the single season TD record with 31. Bettis's best season TD-wise was 13.

Agree to disagree.

He was a very good running back but he didn't lead his team to the Super Bowl and never won it. And while Barry Sanders didn't win a Super Bowl either, I never confused Tomlinson with Sanders.

I don't think Bettis belongs, either.

[ILChief]

Will shields will get robbed again

[Kingsburg#12]

Bullshit. Everything is about Super Bowl wins.

Tim Brown has no business in the HOF if Andre Reed isn't there.

Terrell Davis? LMAO

Tags was garbage. The press hated him.

Mecklenberg is not a HOFer.

This is loaded with fail. You say it's all about Super Bowl wins and then say 7x PRO Bowler Andre Reed should be in before 9x PRO Bowler Tim Brown. Neither won a super bowl.

Ray Guy, the GOAT punter should definitely be in the HOF. He won 3 Super Bowls.

By your own logic, there won't be many Chiefs in the HOF.

[DaneMcCloud]

This is loaded with fail. You say it's all about Super Bowl wins and then say 7x PRO Bowler Andre Reed should be in before 9x PRO Bowler Tim Brown. Neither won a super bowl.

Ray Guy, the GOAT punter should definitely be in the HOF. He won 3 Super Bowls.

By your own logic, there won't be many Chiefs in the HOF.

Andre Reed was a premiere receiver that more than helped the Bills to four consecutive Super Bowls and five consecutive AFC Championship games.

Furthermore, who, besides the current Chiefs and Will Shields, deserve to be in the Hall of Fame? A solid case could be made for O.T. but that is unlikely to happen.

You've failed to prove anything, other than your own dumbassery.

[ThaVirus]

Agree to disagree.

He was a very good running back but he didn't lead his team to the Super Bowl and never won it. And while Barry Sanders didn't win a Super Bowl either, I never confused Tomlinson with Sanders.

I don't think Bettis belongs, either.

:facepalm:

[DaneMcCloud]

:facepalm:

Besides the fact that you're a fucking twat, what made LaDanian Tomlinson transcendent?

Why does he deserve to be canonized next to Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, Emmitt Smith and Franco Harris?

[Kingsburg#12]

Andre Reed was a premiere receiver that more than helped the Bills to four consecutive Super Bowls and five consecutive AFC Championship games.

Furthermore, who, besides the current Chiefs and Will Shields, deserve to be in the Hall of Fame? A solid case could be made for O.T. but that is unlikely to happen.

You've failed to prove anything, other than your own dumbassery.

Reed had the benefit of a better team and much better QB. Brown out produced Reed in Receptions,, Yards, Touchdowns and All Purpose Yards.
You are a MORON

[Kingsburg#12]

Troll DaneMcDouche is an absolute ass. Giving negative rep. You're a F'ing infant.

[DaneMcCloud]

Reed had the benefit of a better team and much better QB. Brown out produced Reed in Receptions,, Yards, Touchdowns and All Purpose Yards.
You are a MORON

He didn't win shit and he does not belong in the Hall of Fame with Jerry Rice, Lynn Swann and Michael Irvin BEFORE Andre Reed.

He wasn't a transcendent player. Get over it.

[DaneMcCloud]

Troll DaneMcDouche is an absolute ass. Giving negative rep. You're a F'ing infant.

Reported for bypassing the language filter

[Deberg_1990]

Besides the fact that you're a ****ing twat, what made LaDanian Tomlinson transcendent?

Why does he deserve to be canonized next to Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, Emmitt Smith and Franco Harris?

If Curtis Martin got in, then Tomlinson will most likely as well. Their career numbers are close.

I wouldn't say either player was transcendent though.

[DaneMcCloud]

If Curtis Martin got in, then Tomlinson will most likely as well. Their career numbers are close.

I wouldn't say either player was transcendent though.

I'm with you.

I think Martin got in because he was a Patriot and a Jet (read: East Coast Bias).

If he was a Charger or a Jaguar, he would have had no chance.

[ThaVirus]

Besides the fact that you're a ****ing twat, what made LaDanian Tomlinson transcendent?

Why does he deserve to be canonized next to Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, Emmitt Smith and Franco Harris?

He was incredible and had about as impressive an 8-year span as you could imagine.

He had good size and the power and durability to handle 300+ carries a season consistently.

He could run between the tackles, he could beat the LBs to the outside, and he had fantastic vision- as evidenced by his insane TD production.

He was also one of the best dual-threat RBs in league history.

All of that combined in a guy that was good in pass protection and absolutely, incredibly reliable in terms of ball security.

There was no weakness in his game.

[DJ's left nut]

It's time for Bettis to go in.

His style wasn't sexy.

Agreed.

Every year that goes by his odds go down because people forget how dominant he was.

No HB ever initiated more contact, and won, than Bettis.

No HB was ever as effective at demoralizing a defense as Bettis in his prime. He'd be held down, 2.2 ypc, then he'd bust a hole he was supposed to be too bit or too slow to hit and run over 2 or 3 guys.

In the 90's Bettis WAS the fantasy HB. He'd get a guaranteed 80+ a TD. That was the rock you based a team on...

Agreed - Bettis was an animal.

My 5:

Greene
Bettis
Shields
Haley
Brooks

[DaneMcCloud]

He was incredible and had about as impressive an 8-year span as you could imagine.

He had good size and the power and durability to handle 300+ carries a season consistently.

He could run between the tackles, he could beat the LBs to the outside, and he had fantastic vision- as evidenced by his insane TD production.

He was also one of the best dual-threat RBs in league history.

All of that combined in a guy that was good in pass protection and absolutely, incredibly reliable in terms of ball security.

There was no weakness in his game.

Take a look at the running backs currently in the Hall of Fame. Outside of Curtis Martin, who at least led his team to the Super Bowl and an AFC Championship Game with the Jets, they were transcendent players.

Tomlinson was a very good player that belongs in the Chargers Hall of Fame.

I would not vote for him on an NFL Hall of Fame ballot.

[DJ's left nut]

I'm sorry but Terrell Davis is not HOF worthy in todays standards, imo.

He's not a HoFer by any standards, IMO.

Sayers shouldn't have been either.

Sorry, but the Hall of Fame requires a great peak and significant duration.

Besides, I'm not willing to take Davis's raw production at face value anyway. As Rainman noted, the dropoff from Davis to Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson was pretty nominal.

Davis isn't anywhere close to a HoF runningback. 3 seasons don't get you into the HOF and the only people that think it should are Broncos fans.

[DJ's left nut]

Besides the fact that you're a fucking twat, what made LaDanian Tomlinson transcendent?

Why does he deserve to be canonized next to Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, Emmitt Smith and Franco Harris?

Payton. Sure.
Smith. Yeah, can't argue with the numbers, even if his line did most of the work.

Allen - boy, it's getting thin there; I'm not sure I'd consider Allen a clearly more worthy entry to the Hall than Tomlinson.
Dorsett - thinner.
Harris - oh c'mon. Nope, that's where I can't even try to muster an argument. I'd take Tomlinson over Franco Harris 100 times out of 100.

Tomlinson's one of the top 10 rushers in NFL history (#5 by yardage) and was arguably the most dynamic RB out of the backfield in league history.

To use your argument - If Marshall Faulk is a HOFer, so is Tomlinson. And Tomlinson is a hell of a lot closer to Faulk in terms of performance than he is to a guy like Eddie George. I'm not real sure why you keep going to the Eddie George well; he's nowhere near the candidate that guys like Bettis and Tomlinson were, regardless of what metric you want to use. Bettis won a championship and was a more prolific runner (significantly so). Tomlinson never won a championship, but was better in every phase of the game, including the grunt work like blitz pickups.

Yes, Tomlinson absolutely deserves to be enshrined alongside some of the greats you've mentioned.

And ultimately, I'm absolutely confident he will be.

[DaneMcCloud]

Payton. Sure.
Smith. Yeah, can't argue with the numbers, even if his line did most of the work.

Allen - boy, it's getting thin there; I'm not sure I'd consider Allen a clearly more worthy entry to the Hall than Tomlinson.
Dorsett - thinner.
Harris - oh c'mon. Nope, that's where I can't even try to muster an argument. I'd take Tomlinson over Franco Harris 100 times out of 100.

Tomlinson's one of the top 10 rushers in NFL history (#5 by yardage) and was arguably the most dynamic RB out of the backfield in league history.

To use your argument - If Marshall Faulk is a HOFer, so is Tomlinson. And Tomlinson is a hell of a lot closer to Faulk in terms of performance than he is to a guy like Eddie George. I'm not real sure why you keep going to the Eddie George well; he's nowhere near the candidate that guys like Bettis and Tomlinson were, regardless of what metric you want to use. Bettis won a championship and was a more prolific runner (significantly so). Tomlinson never won a championship, but was better in every phase of the game, including the grunt work like blitz pickups.

Yes, Tomlinson absolutely deserves to be enshrined alongside some of the greats you've mentioned.

And ultimately, I'm absolutely confident he will be.

The difference between Franco Harris, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen and Tomlinson is that the former were transcendent players on Super Bowl winning teams.

The Hall of Fame should be about great players that either elevate or transcend and while Tomlinson was very, very good, IMO, he was neither able to elevate the play of his teammates nor transcend the game like a Barry Sanders or even Adrian Peterson (who has a long way to go to be HOF worthy, IMO).

Regardless of whether or not he gets in, I wouldn't vote for him.

That said, keeping a high profile on the NFL Network will certainly help him, as it did Cris Carter at ESPN.

[ThaVirus]

Payton. Sure.
Smith. Yeah, can't argue with the numbers, even if his line did most of the work.

Allen - boy, it's getting thin there; I'm not sure I'd consider Allen a clearly more worthy entry to the Hall than Tomlinson.
Dorsett - thinner.
Harris - oh c'mon. Nope, that's where I can't even try to muster an argument. I'd take Tomlinson over Franco Harris 100 times out of 100.

Tomlinson's one of the top 10 rushers in NFL history (#5 by yardage) and was arguably the most dynamic RB out of the backfield in league history.

To use your argument - If Marshall Faulk is a HOFer, so is Tomlinson. And Tomlinson is a hell of a lot closer to Faulk in terms of performance than he is to a guy like Eddie George. I'm not real sure why you keep going to the Eddie George well; he's nowhere near the candidate that guys like Bettis and Tomlinson were, regardless of what metric you want to use. Bettis won a championship and was a more prolific runner (significantly so). Tomlinson never won a championship, but was better in every phase of the game, including the grunt work like blitz pickups.

Yes, Tomlinson absolutely deserves to be enshrined alongside some of the greats you've mentioned.

And ultimately, I'm absolutely confident he will be.

Sense.

You're making it!

[DJ's left nut]

The difference between Franco Harris, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen and Tomlinson is that the former were transcendent players on Super Bowl winning teams.

The Hall of Fame should be about great players that either elevate or transcend and while Tomlinson was very, very good, IMO, he was neither able to elevate the play of his teammates nor transcend the game like a Barry Sanders or even Adrian Peterson (who has a long way to go to be HOF worthy, IMO).

Regardless of whether or not he gets in, I wouldn't vote for him.

That said, keeping a high profile on the NFL Network will certainly help him, as it did Cris Carter at ESPN.

Transcendent is the definition you're using, so why don't you explain what makes it such.

Without the immaculate reception, Harris is not a transcendent player. Without a single incredible run against Washington, Allen isn't. Dorsett? Well he just isn't.

You're asking ThaVirus to explain what makes Tomlinson a transcendent player, meanwhile I see nothing to suggest that some of the guys you're holding up meet that test themselves. Franco didn't make his team better - the Steel Curtain did. And the Raiders weren't exactly hurting for success before Allen got there - they won the SB in 1980. Dorsett? During his best years, the Cowboys were largely also-rans. They won a SB with him as a rookie, sure - that's enough to offset the fact that Tomlinson was better than him at literally every conceivable measure of evaluating performance?

I think you're just calling guys that won rings 'transcendent' and in so doing you're doing a huge disservice to a guy like Tomlinson that simply outperformed pretty much every name you're offering.

[ThaVirus]

Regardless of whether or not he gets in, I wouldn't vote for him.


:facepalm:

I really have to laugh at this. The guy was one of the most productive backs of all time and an absolute workhorse.

He didn't "elevate" the play of those around him and carry his team to a Super Bowl? I wasn't aware that that was a RBs job. I guess they better toss out Sanders' bust right damn now then.

[ThaVirus]

Transcendent is the definition you're using, so why don't you explain what makes it such.

Without the immaculate reception, Harris is not a transcendent player. Without a single incredible run against Washington, Allen isn't. Dorsett? Well he just isn't.

You're asking ThaVirus to explain what makes Tomlinson a transcendent player, meanwhile I see nothing to suggest that some of the guys you're holding up meet that test themselves. Franco didn't make his team better - the Steel Curtain did. And the Raiders weren't exactly hurting for success before Allen got there - they won the SB in 1980. Dorsett? During his best years, the Cowboys were largely also-rans. They won a SB with him as a rookie, sure - that's enough to offset the fact that Tomlinson was better than him at literally every conceivable measure of evaluating performance?

I think you're just calling guys that won rings 'transcendent' and in so doing you're doing a huge disservice to a guy like Tomlinson that simply outperformed pretty much every name you're offering.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m09plvItq51rqfhi2o1_400.gif

[DaneMcCloud]

Transcendent is the definition you're using, so why don't you explain what makes it such.


I think that both you and ThaVirus aren't old enough to either know or remember that the NFL used to be a "Run First" league. Every defense was geared to stop the run and every offense needed a transcendent running back to succeed.

Harris, Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson and Marcus Allen thrived in a league that was primarily designed to stop them from running and gaining yardage. Marcus Allen's Super Bowl run, where he reversed direction, was simply beautiful and amazing to watch, as was his ability to get into the endzone.

Marshall Faulk, IMO, is a borderline Hall of Famer, but he didn't enjoy the relaxed passing rules, which opened up the running game, during the majority of his career.

Tomlinson, on the other hand, did enjoy the relaxed rules. And it's become increasingly clear that teams can find excellent running backs in round three or later (or even undrafted) whereas in the 70's and 80's, those guys were first round picks.

The Chiefs failed mainly in the 70's and 80's because they never found a running back (outside of Joe Delaney, who perished after a single season). And while Okoye was drafted in 1986, it wasn't until 1989 that he was a significant part of the offense, which still didn't stop the Chiefs from taking Harvey Williams in the first round of the 1991 draft and Greg "The Real Deal" Hill a few years later in 1994.

Running backs were at a premium. Today, not so much.

[DaneMcCloud]

:facepalm:

I really have to laugh at this. The guy was one of the most productive backs of all time and an absolute workhorse.

He didn't "elevate" the play of those around him and carry his team to a Super Bowl? I wasn't aware that that was a RBs job. I guess they better toss out Sanders' bust right damn now then.

Foolish post is foolish.

LaDanian Tomlinson is not in the same league as Barry Sanders, period.

[ThaVirus]

Ah, the ol' "You're not old enough to remember X" card.

Love that.

[mcaj22]

Kevin Greene has more sacks than Andre Tippet, Chris Doleman and Howie Long and they are all in the Hall of Fame but he isn't

makes sense.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ah, the ol' "You're not old enough to remember X" card.

Love that.

You've admitted that you are 24 years old. You were born roughly around 1988 or 1989.

Would you care to explain the NFL game of the 70's and 80's? Hell, even the 90's?

How has it changed?

[DaneMcCloud]

Kevin Greene has more sacks than Andre Tippet, Chris Doleman and Howie Long and they are all in the Hall of Fame but he isn't

makes sense.

The knock on Kevin Greene has always been that he was a poor all-around linebacker.

As a pass rushing specialist, he was valuable. Against the run?

Not so much.

[DJ's left nut]

I think that both you and ThaVirus aren't old enough to either know or remember that the NFL used to be a "Run First" league. Every defense was geared to stop the run and every offense needed a transcendent running back to succeed.

Harris, Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson and Marcus Allen thrived in a league that was primarily designed to stop them from running and gaining yardage. Marcus Allen's Super Bowl run, where he reversed direction, was simply beautiful and amazing to watch, as was his ability to get into the endzone.

Marshall Faulk, IMO, is a borderline Hall of Famer, but he didn't enjoy the relaxed passing rules, which opened up the running game, during the majority of his career.

Tomlinson, on the other hand, did enjoy the relaxed rules. And it's become increasingly clear that teams can find excellent running backs in round three or later (or even undrafted) whereas in the 70's and 80's, those guys were first round picks.

The Chiefs failed mainly in the 70's and 80's because they never found a running back (outside of Joe Delaney, who perished after a single season). And while Okoye was drafted in 1986, it wasn't until 1989 that he was a significant part of the offense, which still didn't stop the Chiefs from taking Harvey Williams in the first round and Greg "The Real Deal" Hill a few years later.

Running backs were at a premium. Today, not so much.

I presume, then, that given the relaxed passing rules, it should be damn near impossible for WRs to make the HOF now?

And I believe I've had this conversation with you before once and simply don't buy the premise. Yes, defenses used to be geared more to stopping the run. They also used to be built around defensive tackles that weighed 260 lbs; defensive ends that weighed 250.

Buck Buchanan was by nearly any measure the most dominant defensive tackle of the era; the guy was 6'7'' and weighted 270 lbs. That's lighter than Tamba Hali. Hell, he just barely outweighs Justin Houston and he has 4 inches in height on the guy.

And he was huge for his time.

Moreover, while defenses were built to stop the run, offenses were built to help it. WRs were oftentimes glorified TEs. TEs were little more than extra tackles. Single back sets? Pft - I'm not even sure they'd been invented yet.

Disregarding modern RBs ignores any of the factors that have served to make the job a hell of a lot more difficult for them as well.

[DJ's left nut]

Foolish post is foolish.

LaDanian Tomlinson is not in the same league as Barry Sanders, period.

He was better.

Sanders was much less of a threat as a receiver out of the backfield, awful in pass protection and would oftentimes jitter for a loss of 2 when all his team needed was him to run into the pile to pick up 1.

If I'm trying to build a complete, winning football team, I'd take LDT over Sanders every time. And this is from a guy that worshiped Sanders growing up.

It doesn't change the fact that there were a lot of things he could've done to help his team win games that he didn't do. LDT did all those things and while he wasn't as explosive or electric a pure runner as Sanders was - he was a much better all around football player.

[ThaVirus]

You've admitted that you are 24 years old. You were born roughly around 1988 or 1989.

Would you care to explain the NFL game of the 70's and 80's? Hell, even the 90's?

How has it changed?

I'd love to see the league average for YPC over the years and whether or not the passing rules have had any impact. I have no idea where to find it though.

[DaneMcCloud]

I presume, then, that given the relaxed passing rules, it should be damn near impossible for WRs to make the HOF now?

Yes, I believe so. That's why there's been a logjam at WR the past few years which, IMO, only continue. I'm shocked that Cris Carter got in before Andre Reed. If Art Monk is in, why not Reed? Because he never won a Super Bowl, like Monk?

And if Reed isn't in and Marvin Harrison isn't in, how in the world do you put in Tim Brown, who never played in a Super Bowl? Is Randy Moss a Hall of Famer? I don't know. That would be a tough call for me.

I think the only legitimate Hall of Fame wide receiver in the past decade is Calvin Johnson. Regardless of the QB or the team's record, the man has produced amazing statistics along with amazing body control. But other than him, I can't see anyone else in the Hall of Fame.

And I believe I've had this conversation with you before once and simply don't buy the premise. Yes, defenses used to be geared more to stopping the run. They also used to be built around defensive tackles that weighed 260 lbs; defensive ends that weighed 250.

Buck Buchanan was by nearly any measure the most dominant defensive tackle of the era; the guy was 6'7'' and weighted 270 lbs. That's lighter than Tamba Hali. Hell, he just barely outweight Justin Houston and he has 4 inches in height on the guy.

And he was huge for his time.

Moreover, while defenses were built to stop the run, offenses were built to help it. WRs were oftentimes glorified TEs. TEs were little more than extra tackles. Single back sets? Pft - I'm not even sure they'd been invented yet.

Disregarding modern RBs ignores any of the factors that have served to make the job a hell of a lot more difficult for them as well.

Players can only play who they play. Rules on the other hand, effect the game tremendously.

[DaneMcCloud]

He was better.

Agree to disagree

[kcxiv]

Will Shields played 14 years in the NFL. He was a 12 time Pro Bowler, an 8 time All Pro and a member of the All Decade team of the 2000's.

Regardless of whether or not you're a Chiefs fan or Chiefs "Homer", Will Shields belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

of course he does, but there are guys on that list the belong there first i believe. Its a nice bottle neck in there, so yes, that was my homer pick. some of them dudes been waiting a while that need to be in there.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'd love to see the league average for YPC over the years and whether or not the passing rules have had any impact. I have no idea where to find it though.

Defenses are geared to stop the passing game. The rules regarding CB's and pass rushers didn't exist in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Guys can barely touch QB's these days, let alone WR's, yet back in the day, they could destroy QB's and mug receivers.

It was totally different game, which is why if you didn't have an amazing running back (if not a Hall of Famer), you likely weren't going to the Super Bowl, let alone, win it.

[Deberg_1990]

Transcendent is the definition you're using, so why don't you explain what makes it such.

Without the immaculate reception, Harris is not a transcendent player. Without a single incredible run against Washington, Allen isn't. Dorsett? Well he just isn't.

You're asking ThaVirus to explain what makes Tomlinson a transcendent player, meanwhile I see nothing to suggest that some of the guys you're holding up meet that test themselves. Franco didn't make his team better - the Steel Curtain did. And the Raiders weren't exactly hurting for success before Allen got there - they won the SB in 1980. Dorsett? During his best years, the Cowboys were largely also-rans. They won a SB with him as a rookie, sure - that's enough to offset the fact that Tomlinson was better than him at literally every conceivable measure of evaluating performance?

I think you're just calling guys that won rings 'transcendent' and in so doing you're doing a huge disservice to a guy like Tomlinson that simply outperformed pretty much every name you're offering.

There are lot of old time players i personally dont feel belong in the Hall just based on stats alone. Joe Namath, Lynn Swann to name a couple.

But these guys were crucial to old time NFL lore and helped make the league to where its at today. Thats why they are in more than anything really. Relative to the era they played in....their stats were good, but compared to today, its a joke. Its a different league now. But they made big time plays in big games, thus transcending.

[DJ's left nut]

I'd love to see the league average for YPC over the years and whether or not the passing rules have had any impact. I have no idea where to find it though.

It has, but not to the degree Dane is contending.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/rushing.htm

In the 70s you could expect YPC to be around 4.0 YPC. 80s - largely the same story.

The 90's looked to vacillate a little more, but YPC do have a downward trend; 3.9 seems pretty fair and by Tomlinson's 'peak' years it had come up to about 4.1 YPC.

We're talking percentage points here and there; in any given 'era' you're looking about a variation of about 2-4%.

He's right that it's gotten a little easier, but not by that much and certainly not when you compare it to the guys in the 70s and 80s.

[DaneMcCloud]

It has, but not to the degree Dane is contending.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/rushing.htm

In the 70s you could expect YPC to be around 4.0 YPC. 80s - largely the same story.

The 90's looked to vacillate a little more, but YPC do have a downward trend; 3.9 seems pretty fair and by Tomlinson's 'peak' years it had come up to about 4.1 YPC.

We're talking percentage points here and there; in any given 'era' you're looking about a variation of about 2-4%.

He's right that it's gotten a little easier, but not by that much and certainly not when you compare it to the guys in the 70s and 80s.

But there weren't guys running sub-4.5 40's across the board, either.

The game has changed dramatically.

[DJ's left nut]

Players can only play who they play. Rules on the other hand, effect the game tremendously.

Players can only play under the rules of their time. And the attributes of the players involved effect the game tremendously as well. I don't think there's even an argument to be made that strength and conditioning has had a greater impact on the game than the rules changes have.

And as to LDT vs. Sanders - that's fine. I now my position isn't going to be the more common one there and there are great arguments to be made to the contrary. I just believe the fact that the discussion can be had at all says that Sanders should be a HoFer.

[ThaVirus]

He was better.

Sanders was much less of a threat as a receiver out of the backfield, awful in pass protection and would oftentimes jitter for a loss of 2 when all his team needed was him to run into the pile to pick up 1.

If I'm trying to build a complete, winning football team, I'd take LDT over Sanders every time. And this is from a guy that worshiped Sanders growing up.

It doesn't change the fact that there were a lot of things he could've done to help his team win games that he didn't do. LDT did all those things and while he wasn't as explosive or electric a pure runner as Sanders was - he was a much better all around football player.

I can't say I agree here, as I admittedly wasn't a football guru at the age of 8 when Barry was in his prime, but you've brought up a point I'd like to delve into that's pertinent to this argument.

(To Dane)

When considering HOF enshrinement, what's the argument against LT? That he's not "transcendent"? LMAO That he didn't carry his team to a Super Bowl? DJ just noted that LT did a hell of a lot more to carry his team to a championship than a guy like Sanders or many others did.

Yeah, Barry was electric and all that. But, once again, speaking in terms of HOF argument, he had weaknesses. He had, what, over 1,000 negative yards throughout his career in gambing for the big run? He also didn't score many TDs, relatively speaking, as compared to the amount of yardage he totalled.

Jim Brown? That dude was dominant but in a time when he weighed probably 20 pounds less than the average defensive lineman.

Emmitt Smith? Don't even get me started on that guy. How many All-Pro and HOF offensive linemen did he run behind? Not to mention the HOF QB and WR that he also had the pleasure of playing with..

[patteeu]

The 5 guys with the highest Pro Football Reference Weighted Career AVs (fwiw) are:

1. Derrick Brooks 140
2. Marvin Harrison 124
3. Michael Strahan 121
4. Will Shields 113
5. Aeneas Williams 106

Just missing the cut were a couple of Raiders, Tim Brown and Steve Wisniewski at 104.

[DaneMcCloud]

I can't say I agree here, as I admittedly wasn't a football guru at the age of 8 when Barry was in his prime, but you've brought up a point I'd like to delve into that's pertinent to this argument.

(To Dane)

When considering HOF enshrinement, what's the argument against LT? That he's not "transcendent"? LMAO That he didn't carry his team to a Super Bowl? DJ just noted that LT did a hell of a lot more to carry his team to a championship than a guy like Sanders or many others did.

Well, for one, when his team needed him most, he was out, injured.

Secondly, the Chargers WERE a loaded team with a Super Bowl winning coach (albeit as an OC but nonetheless). Vincent Jackson, Tomlinson, Gates, Rivers (or Brees), etc. Yet, they could never get over the hump and he never carried them over the hump.

Again, he was a great running back but I wouldn't vote for him as a Hall of Famer, any more than I'd vote Davis, George, Holmes, etc.

He failed to elevate the Chargers or Jets when it mattered most.

[DJ's left nut]

But there weren't guys running sub-4.5 40's across the board, either.

The game has changed dramatically.

Of course it has.

And those guys running sub 4.5 40's are often CBs trying to track you down or even more terrifying, 240 lb LBers. There damn sure weren't any Dontari Poes in the middle of the line that can leg press a light pickup and clock a 4.9.

Speak to the rules all you want, but the results don't lie - their impact on the actual performance of RBs by era has been in the margins at best. Offenses have adjusted the help they give RBs to fit the rules and the gazelles that are built line 70s era lineman are now LBs are that can fly to the edges (on the same sized field, mind you) and keep modern RBs from getting the corner that they would've made it to in the past.

[DJ's left nut]

Well, for one, when his team needed him most, he was out, injured.

Secondly, the Chargers WERE a loaded team with a Super Bowl winning coach (albeit as an OC but nonetheless). Vincent Jackson, Tomlinson, Gates, Rivers (or Brees), etc. Yet, they could never get over the hump and he never carried them over the hump.

Again, he was a great running back but I wouldn't vote for him as a Hall of Famer, any more than I'd vote Davis, George, Holmes, etc.

He failed to elevate the Chargers or Jets when it mattered most.

When you're trumpeting Norv Turner in an attempt to run down LaDanian Tomlinson, your argument is really starting to run out of steam.

[DaneMcCloud]

When you're trumpeting Norv Turner in an attempt to run down LaDanian Tomlinson, your argument is really starting to run out of steam.

So, tell us why Tomlinson should be in the Hall of Fame? What makes him worthy, other than some gaudy stats, which other players outside the Hall have as well?

What made him unique? Why should he be revered 100 years from now?

[ThaVirus]

:facepalm:

We've been doing that, Dane..

[DaneMcCloud]

:facepalm:

We've been doing that, Dane..

Not buying it

[DJ's left nut]

So, tell us why Tomlinson should be in the Hall of Fame? What makes him worthy, other than some gaudy stats, which other players outside the Hall have as well?

What made him unique? Why should he be revered 100 years from now?

He's the 2nd best combination of pass-catcher and rusher in league history (behind only Faulk) while simultaneously being responsible in every facet of the game.

His numbers, even era adjusted, stack up to anyone's. And as I've pointed out several times, there's not a good reason to apply a significant era adjustment to RB as they've been remarkably static in their performance throughout history. His regular season record is sterling as well; the Chargers really began their turnaround with him taking the reigns. Despite different coaches, QBs and skill position players, they just kept winning - LDT was the constant.

The only argument you have against him appears to be that he never won a SB. Well I guess Shields and Gonzalez are fucked. DT shouldn't have been in there. And why are we still discussing Sanders?

You just move the goalposts every time I address an issue. You've now settle on a nebulous definition of 'transcendent'. And for the record, no, there's not a single player outside the hall that has stats on par with Tomlinsons. Not one. In fact, his are better than most of the guys that are already in it.

You're just seeing what you want to see.

[GoChargers]

If Coryell doesn't get into the HOF, it's a travesty. None of the offenses putting up video game numbers today that Goodell and the owners love so much would have been possible without him.

But he only won 3 playoff games, so I guess he's not "transcendent" enough for the Hall. :rolleyes:

[DaneMcCloud]

You just move the goalposts every time I address an issue. You've now settle on a nebulous definition of 'transcendent'.

Bullshit.

First off, Will Shields was a Pro Bowler 12 of his 14 seasons, an 8 time All Pro and an NFL Man of the Year. His level of play was unique and unquestioned.

Tony Gonzalez has more catches than anyone in NFL history other than Jerry Rice. He was the first of new breed of tight ends and is a 13 time Pro Bowler that's still an effective player 17 years into his playing career. His level of play is unique and unquestioned.

LaDanian Tomlinson was a very good running back on a team with many offensive weapons and an "Elite" QB (two, if you count Brees). His teams never won an AFC Championship and by the time he actually played in two AFC Championships, his skills had begun to erode.

While I think he was an excellent player in his era, I do not believe that he is a Hall of Famer.

Nothing that you say can change my mind.

[GoChargers]

Put David Tyree in the Hall of Fame! He has a ring and had that amazing helmet catch, that means he's "transcendent!" /Dane

[DaneMcCloud]

You're just seeing what you want to see.

And I can absolutely guarantee you that as a SoCal resident since 1993, I saw LaDanian Tomlinson in more games, likely at least tenfold, than you.

And I can say, without a shred of a doubt, that I was not as impressed by his play on the field as his stats indicate. He doesn't pass the eye test, IMO, like a Barry Sanders, Emmit Smith or even Priest Holmes.

[DaneMcCloud]

Put David Tyree in the Hall of Fame! He has a ring and had that amazing helmet catch, that means he's "transcendent!" /Dane

Fuck off, Dummy.

Jesus.

LMAO

[DJ's left nut]

Bullshit.

First off, Will Shields was a Pro Bowler 12 of his 14 seasons, an 8 time All Pro and an NFL Man of the Year. His level of play is unique and unquestioned.

Tony Gonzalez has more catches than anyone in NFL history other than Jerry Rice. He was the first of new breed of tight ends and is a 13 time Pro Bowler that's still an effective player 17 years into his playing career.

LaDanian Tomlinson was a very good running back on a team with many offensive weapons and an "Elite" QB (two, if you count Brees). His teams never won an AFC Championship and by the time he actually played in two AFC Championships, his skills had begun to erode.

While I think he was an excellent player in his era, I do not believe that he is a Hall of Famer.

Nothing that you say can change my mind.

Clearly.

But as I've said 1000 times over - I'm not in it to change the minds of the militantly entrenched. All I can do is speak to those that will listen.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Agreed - Bettis was an animal.

My 5:

Greene
Bettis
Shields
Haley
Brooks

Agreed.

Charles Haley has eight votes so far.

Laughable.

[GoChargers]

Tony Gonzalez has more catches than anyone in NFL history other than Jerry Rice.
And LT holds the record for most single-season rushing touchdowns and is second only to Emmitt Smith for most career rushing touchdowns. Neither has a ring. Hell, Gonzalez didn't even win a playoff game until he was 36 years old.

How is one any more "transcendent" than the other? Let me guess the real reason: Gonzalez was a Chief for most of his career, LT was on a division rival.

[DaneMcCloud]

And LT holds the record for most single-season rushing touchdowns and is second only to Emmitt Smith for most career rushing touchdowns. Neither has a ring. Hell, Gonzalez didn't even win a playoff game until he was 36 years old.

How is one any more "transcendent" than the other? Let me guess the real reason: Gonzalez was a Chief for most of his career, LT was on a division rival.

Whatever, Dude. I never said he wouldn't get into the Hall of Fame; I said I wouldn't vote for him.

And, I've given several reasons why I wouldn't vote for him, regardless of your stats.

[DaneMcCloud]

Clearly.

But as I've said 1000 times over - I'm not in it to change the minds of the militantly entrenched. All I can do is speak to those that will listen.

Gee, I'm sorry I based my opinion on dozens of San Diego games I watched over the years, some of which were actually in San Diego, in their stadium.

:rolleyes:

[DJ's left nut]

Gee, I'm sorry I based my opinion on dozens of San Diego games I watched over the years, some of which were actually in San Diego, in their stadium.

:rolleyes:

Well I guess that's better than "I'm older", so you're clearly progressing.

He's going to the Hall. Period. He's probably going to go in within the first 3 ballots, if not the first.

But I'm sure your opinion will be far more knowledgeable than those guys...

[DaneMcCloud]

Well I guess that's better than "I'm older", so you're clearly progressing.

Thanks for acting like a dick. And that's not what I said, Dick.

He's going to the Hall. Period. He's probably going to go in within the first 3 ballots, if not the first.

But I'm sure your opinion will be far more knowledgeable than those guys...

My "opinion" will be far more "knowledgeable"? That doesn't even make sense.

[DJ's left nut]

Agreed.

Charles Haley has eight votes so far.

Laughable.

Yeah, the Haley thing is confounding.

That guy was one of the first player I recall watching and just being amazed by how clearly physically superior he was to everyone else on the field.

If we're counting rings, Haley was a five time SB champion and likely the best player on the defense for at least 4 of those. Haley to the Cowboys may have done as much to swing the balance of power in the NFC as anything.

[DJ's left nut]

My "opinion" will be far more "knowledgeable"? That doesn't even make sense.

Ah I see, now we're moving on to grammar police; I guess plugging your ears and sticking out your tongue got tiresome. This is a better look for you.

My apologies. I'm sure your opinion will be more informed than the HoF selection committee's will be.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ah I see, now we're moving on to grammar police; I guess plugging your ears and sticking out your tongue got tiresome. This is a better look for you.

My apologies. I'm sure your opinion will be more informed than the HoF selection committee's will be.

Jesus, you're acting like a dickhead tonight. Rough day in court?

[Kingsburg#12]

The HOF is a colossal waste of time and arguing about it with some overweight slob living in his mom's basement is pointless. Academy awards, Emmy's, Avn's, CMA's, PRO Bowls, All Star games are time occupiers for people with no life and no personal accomplishments. Their biggest achievement was finishing 1st on a Battlefield 4 level.
Opinions from a douche that has Andre Reed's pole in his throat are worthless.

[ClevelandBronco]

...Terrell Davis...

Never. Too short a career.

Don't bother bringing up Sayers.

[ClevelandBronco]

He also ****ed Cleveland by allowing Modell to leave for Baltimore, then made Cleveland wait years before getting a new franchise, which has been ****ed in the years since.

He allowed the Rams and Raiders to move, uncontested, the Oilers to move, uncontested and put an NFL Franchise in JACKSONVILLE.

He was a piece of shit.

Cleveland screwed itself out of the Modell Browns. Municipal Stadium was a nightmare for a couple of decades and everyone knew it. I'm opposed to public funding of stadiums for the most part, but Cleveland knew what was at stake. The issue didn't just suddenly sneak up on them.

[driver2]

Shields belongs as do a lot of the others listed.
Doubt if he makes it though, OGs never get in. FFS the last time I checked Jerry Kramer wasn't in the HOF. DeLamellure and Shell are the only ones I can think of ,off the top of my head. I'd vote for him if it were up to me. Really doubt it though.

[Ebolapox]

Ray guy wasn't even the best punter from his era: Jerrel Wilson was.

[BullJunkandIron]

At no time was/is Bettis a HoF runningback.

So true

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I nominate Todd Haley.

[Rain Man]

Shields belongs as do a lot of the others listed.
Doubt if he makes it though, OGs never get in. FFS the last time I checked Jerry Kramer wasn't in the HOF. DeLamellure and Shell are the only ones I can think of ,off the top of my head. I'd vote for him if it were up to me. Really doubt it though.


It should be hard to ignore 12 pro bowls and never missing a game.

That said, I'm going to be seriously upset if they pass him over for Walter Jones.

[DaneMcCloud]

It should be hard to ignore 12 pro bowls and never missing a game.

That said, I'm going to be seriously upset if they pass him over for Walter Jones.

Shields will eventually get in but it may take five years, as it did for DT.

The Hall of Fame voting process seems to be a very strange process, so it may take the voters hearing about Shields achievements over and over.

[kcxiv]

The HOF is a colossal waste of time and arguing about it with some overweight slob living in his mom's basement is pointless. Academy awards, Emmy's, Avn's, CMA's, PRO Bowls, All Star games are time occupiers for people with no life and no personal accomplishments. Their biggest achievement was finishing 1st on a Battlefield 4 level.
Opinions from a douche that has Andre Reed's pole in his throat are worthless.

huh?

[cdcox]

Shields
Strahan
Coryell
Bettis
Harrison


It makes me want to puke on my shoes, but Ray Guy as the senior.

I had Greene instead of Bettis and no Ray Guy.

[007]

Not sure why but I thought Roger Craig was already in the HOF.

[driver2]

It should be hard to ignore 12 pro bowls and never missing a game.
That said, I'm going to be seriously upset if they pass him over for Walter Jones.

You would think so wouldn't you! In a just and fair world you would be right.
Guards and centers have been almost totally ignored by the HOF voters. If they do their job well, NOBODY mentions them in the News, and look who the voters are. The sporting press from the East and west coasts.

If your team and players have been toiling away in a small market city out here in fly over land they'll probably never make it!

I can name you at least 6-10 players from the Chiefs, Raiders,(puke), Cards and Broncos who should've been in the HOF for decades.