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SeeingRed
12-03-2013, 08:44 PM
Then that last drive wouldve been a chip shot kick for Succop. My reason for posting this is because I think Denver is beatable....very good...but beatable. Dropped passes that Endzone interception and lack of sacks and pressures gave Denver that win.

Thoughts? :hmmm:

Here is a post a saw on Arrowheadpride earlier with 50 comments on the subject. Other that that throw I thought Smith looked pretty awesome. Too bad the WRs couldn't catch the ball (cough cough AVERY cough) :shake:

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/12/2/5167302/alex-smiths-opening-drive-int

JoeyChuckles
12-03-2013, 08:47 PM
If Then statements can be applied to just about every situation in life. How do you know the rest of the game goes the same if Smith doesn't throw the interception?

BossChief
12-03-2013, 08:47 PM
Who cares at this point?

It's Tuesday and we play Washington Sunday.

Nightfyre
12-03-2013, 08:48 PM
Anyone who posts a link to the ap forum should be banned for spam, imo.

Prison Bitch
12-03-2013, 08:49 PM
Denver is beatable, but I'm afraid to admit they're not beatable by us.

Sorter
12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Thought we'd continue with A gap pressure from our dime like NE did especially considering the success we had with it quite early.


An incorrect assumption, so it seems.

scho63
12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
The biggest momentum shift in the game occurred when Dexter McDumbshit fielded the punt at the 3 and was creamed by the Broncos punt coverage team. They got fired up, we had to punt, and Peyton and his giant forehead shredded us for 28 straight points and 450 yards of offense.

We had it all going our way right up to that moment.

Hammock Parties
12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
used to say that about grbac and cassel

Prison Bitch
12-03-2013, 08:52 PM
The biggest momentum shift in the game occurred when Dexter McDumbshit fielded the punt at the 3 and was creamed by the Broncos punt coverage team. They got fired up, we had to punt, and Peyton and his giant forehead shredded us for 28 straight points and 450 yards of offense.

We had it all going our way right up to that moment.

That's a fair point. We did go on a 21-7 run after the Smith pick. I'd also nominate the 50 yard run straight up our ass immediately after we pinned them on their 5 in the 3rd quarter down 7.

Bugeater
12-03-2013, 08:52 PM
IMO if we scored a TD on that first drive, we win the game. We'll never know. But yeah, Denver is beatable, just not by us.

SeeingRed
12-03-2013, 08:55 PM
The biggest momentum shift in the game occurred when Dexter McDumbshit fielded the punt at the 3 and was creamed by the Broncos punt coverage team. They got fired up, we had to punt, and Peyton and his giant forehead shredded us for 28 straight points and 450 yards of offense.

We had it all going our way right up to that moment.

true...fair point. 28-7 wouldve been harder for them to come back from. Then again its not like we could sick our violent pass rush on them. :-/

Reerun_KC
12-03-2013, 08:56 PM
The biggest momentum shift in the game occurred when Dexter McDumbshit fielded the punt at the 3 and was creamed by the Broncos punt coverage team. They got fired up, we had to punt, and Peyton and his giant forehead shredded us for 28 straight points and 450 yards of offense.

We had it all going our way right up to that moment.

In your opinion. We lost the game when bob sutton shit down his leg in the 3rd qtr. Denver is beatable but not by us.

AussieChiefsFan
12-03-2013, 08:57 PM
There are a lot of possible "ifs" from this game.

Like, what if the secondary didn't give up so many deep passes that resulted in Denver scores?

Or, what if a run was called instead of a pass?

Really no point over-thinking them. It's in the past.

scho63
12-03-2013, 08:58 PM
That's a fair point. We did go on a 21-7 run after the Smith pick. I'd also nominate the 50 yard run straight up our ass immediately after we pinned them on their 5 in the 3rd quarter down 7.

The run was more like a nail in the coffin or as Mitch Holthaus would say.... DAGGER!

Gravedigger
12-03-2013, 08:59 PM
We still lose the game because Eric Decker was allowed to be the MVP with the same damn play every single drive. Let it go.

BossChief
12-03-2013, 09:01 PM
We can beat Denver, it would just take us playing near perfect football.


We were within 7 points with 3 minutes to go and in the red zone with the ball after dropping over 100 yards of passes, throwing a pick from the 2 yard line, having a TD come off the board for a penalty and wasting numerous other opportunities to put points on the board.

As I said, I think we could beat em...but not without playing a lot better than we did Sunday.

007
12-03-2013, 09:02 PM
How stupid. If he doesn't throw that interception the entire game plays out differently. Not just that one play. Still doesn't mean we win or we lose.

saphojunkie
12-03-2013, 09:02 PM
In your opinion. We lost the game when bob sutton shit down his leg in the 3rd qtr. Denver is beatable but not by us.

I have no reason to think this, but I say we are going to face them a third in the playoffs and win.

007
12-03-2013, 09:03 PM
There are a lot of possible "ifs" from this game.

Like, what if the secondary didn't give up so many deep passes that resulted in Denver scores?

Or, what if a run was called instead of a pass?

Really no point over-thinking them. It's in the past.

Or, what if we scored more point than the other team. LMAO

AussieChiefsFan
12-03-2013, 09:04 PM
Or, what if we scored more point than the other team. LMAOThat might just be crazy enough to work.
Maybe.

SeeingRed
12-03-2013, 09:06 PM
I have no reason to think this, but I say we are going to face them a third in the playoffs and win.

I agree with this....and this is kinda my point in posting this. I believe (against popular opinion i realize) that the Chiefs can beat the Broncos if a 3rd game takes place. Would take a turnaround of our pass rush and receivers to help Smith out....but its possible. Smith has been VERY impressive. Besides that one endzone interception he was pretty damn good.

TheUte
12-03-2013, 09:15 PM
How stupid. If he doesn't throw that interception the entire game plays out differently. Not just that one play. Still doesn't mean we win or we lose.

This.

I fall into that trap sometimes, if only. But it would have been a completely different game.

Dave Lane
12-03-2013, 09:22 PM
Denver is beatable, but I'm afraid to admit they're not beatable by us.

Truth.

Ragged Robin
12-03-2013, 09:29 PM
We were still up 21-7 afterward. The entire chemistry of the game changes if we scored there (butterfly effect). Utter defensive collapse these last two weeks is what has costed us. Just one more stop at a crucial point in both games is all we needed. With this defense, 28 and 38 points should be enough.

007
12-03-2013, 09:31 PM
We were still up 21-7 afterward. The entire chemistry of the game changes if we scored there (butterfly effect). Utter defensive collapse these last two weeks is what has costed us. Just one more stop at a crucial point in both games is all we needed. With this defense, 28 and 38 points should be enough.

Which begs the question, what the fuck happened. From Buffalo on this defense has been dogshit. This started before Tamba and Houston were injured.

SeeingRed
12-03-2013, 09:56 PM
Which begs the question, what the **** happened. From Buffalo on this defense has been dogshit. This started before Tamba and Houston were injured.

from week 8 on we lost our pass rush :shake: zero! From the best pass rush in the league to the worst. Frustrating and bizaar

TribalElder
12-03-2013, 09:58 PM
Ya know, if we would have scored more points than the other team we definitely would have won the game.

Rasputin
12-03-2013, 10:02 PM
If G o d was one of us?



He's not because God hates the Chiefs.

Psyko Tek
12-03-2013, 11:08 PM
Then that last drive wouldve been a chip shot kick for Succop. My reason for posting this is because I think Denver is beatable....very good...but beatable. Dropped passes that Endzone interception and lack of sacks and pressures gave Denver that win.

Thoughts? :hmmm:

Here is a post a saw on Arrowheadpride earlier with 50 comments on the subject. Other that that throw I thought Smith looked pretty awesome. Too bad the WRs couldn't catch the ball (cough cough AVERY cough) :shake:

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/12/2/5167302/alex-smiths-opening-drive-int
n00b

:deevee:
STFU

ClevelandBronco
12-03-2013, 11:24 PM
Denver is beatable, but I'm afraid to admit they're not beatable by us.

IMO if we scored a TD on that first drive, we win the game. We'll never know. But yeah, Denver is beatable, just not by us.

In your opinion. We lost the game when bob sutton shit down his leg in the 3rd qtr. Denver is beatable but not by us.

Truth.

Since they're not having this discussion in Indy and Foxboro, I'd say that it's fairly obvious that the Broncos are beatable.

Bugeater
12-03-2013, 11:43 PM
Since they're not having this discussion in Indy and Foxboro, I'd say that it's fairly obvious that the Broncos are beatable.
I'm pretty sure that was the point we were all making...

beach tribe
12-04-2013, 12:44 AM
No one cares.
According to CP we should just concede the rest of our games.
We are worthless and have no shot at winning a PO game.

RunKC
12-04-2013, 12:53 AM
What if we learned how to cover Decker? What if we learned how catch the ball? What if Andy knew that handing off to Charles was destroying them all night?

Let's be honest here. D would have given up a score to lose game like SD if we scored a TD the last drive

ClevelandBronco
12-04-2013, 01:13 AM
I'm pretty sure that was the point we were all making...

All I'm saying is that you're making a point that been true for every team every year since 1972. Slow news day?

JohnnyV13
12-04-2013, 04:45 AM
The big problem is, that Sutton doesn't seem to get is that the key to beating manning is to switch defenses on him.

Our players say the plan was to take away the short crossing routes and make Manning throw long (which he hasn't done all year). Well, on Sunday, he showed he could regularly hit that long ball.

Once he figured out our plan, he looked for it. THIS is the problem, you have to keep switching up on Manning. You can't let him figure you out or he'll read too fast. Force him to slow down his reads, and he becomes sackable.

The idea is to sometimes take away his crossing routes, or take away the deep routes, or throw the A gap blitz at him. Switch up doubling receivers. Keep switching up and hope you can outguess him.

milkman
12-04-2013, 07:23 AM
Which begs the question, what the **** happened. From Buffalo on this defense has been dogshit. This started before Tamba and Houston were injured.

What the fuck happened is that the playmakers on this defense wore down.

Tamba, Justin, DJ and Poe playing almost every single snap took it's toll.

Poe isn't getting the same consistent penetration, Tamba and Justin have not shown that same quick first step.

BlackHelicopters
12-04-2013, 07:34 AM
Shoulda. Woulda. Coulda.

Hog's Gone Fishin
12-04-2013, 08:06 AM
If only we had sacked forehead 5 times and they all happened to be on those 5 TD passes he threw.

Dartgod
12-04-2013, 08:09 AM
We can beat Denver, it would just take us playing near perfect football.


We were within 7 points with 3 minutes to go and in the red zone with the ball after dropping over 100 yards of passes, throwing a pick from the 2 yard line, having a TD come off the board for a penalty and wasting numerous other opportunities to put points on the board.

As I said, I think we could beat em...but not without playing a lot better than we did Sunday.

I have to admit, I don't remember this. What was it about?


Fucking old age...

13and3
12-04-2013, 08:11 AM
Lots of posters here always come out on the negative side of things, it a safe way to not get attacked here and its the cool thing to do on CP. But I totally agree the Donkos are totally beatable by US! We only lost by a touchdown, and we were with in a few yards of evening the game in the last minute, never mind the 7 points taken off the board with the interception. These two teams are closely matched, if they play 10 times kc wins 3 to 4 of those contest. Moreover if they play 3 times there is a good chance we win one of those match-ups, so if we see them again in the playoffs the odds should actually play to our advantage. One more thing, The defensive was great in beginning of the year, and the offense stunk, now it is vise versa, it is the natural ebb and flow of a growing team. What we really want to see is a healthy Chiefs team headed into the playoffs, with Houston and Hali at full power again. It is a good thing the Chiefs have not peaked to early. Hopefully as the end of the season nears and the playoffs start, we will have a team that has begun to click on both sides of the ball at the same time, and play well as a team when it matters the most.

dj56dt58
12-04-2013, 08:12 AM
Denver gave it right back and we put up 7..that int didnt matter

Dartgod
12-04-2013, 08:13 AM
I have to admit, I don't remember this. What was it about?


****ing old age...

Was it this play?

(11:44) 11-A.Smith pass short middle to 82-D.Bowe for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on KC-74-G.Schwartz, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 8 - No Play.

You know we scored the TD to Fasano two plays later, right?

Mile High Mania
12-04-2013, 09:27 AM
The big problem is, that Sutton doesn't seem to get is that the key to beating manning is to switch defenses on him.

Our players say the plan was to take away the short crossing routes and make Manning throw long (which he hasn't done all year). Well, on Sunday, he showed he could regularly hit that long ball.

Once he figured out our plan, he looked for it. THIS is the problem, you have to keep switching up on Manning. You can't let him figure you out or he'll read too fast. Force him to slow down his reads, and he becomes sackable.

The idea is to sometimes take away his crossing routes, or take away the deep routes, or throw the A gap blitz at him. Switch up doubling receivers. Keep switching up and hope you can outguess him.

Honestly, it's more than just what they did or didn't do vs Manning.

In the first 6 games, KC had 18 takeaways and averaged 10.8 Points Allowed.
In the last 6 games, KC had 8 takeaways and averaged 24.8 Points Allowed.

In the last 5 games (CLE, BUF, DEN, SD, DEN) there have been a ton of yards giving up and QBs have exploited the secondary, it's been twice with Manning, but overall there have been a few things exposed defensively by teams.

Garcia Bronco
12-04-2013, 09:32 AM
I mean the ball was fumbled on the last drive and they gave it back to you after Unrein recovered it.

Hog's Gone Fishin
12-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Lots of posters here always come out on the negative side of things, it a safe way to not get attacked here and its the cool thing to do on CP. But I totally agree the Donkos are totally beatable by US! We only lost by a touchdown, and we were with in a few yards of evening the game in the last minute, never mind the 7 points taken off the board with the interception. These two teams are closely matched, if they play 10 times kc wins 3 to 4 of those contest. Moreover if they play 3 times there is a good chance we win one of those match-ups, so if we see them again in the playoffs the odds should actually play to our advantage. One more thing, The defensive was great in beginning of the year, and the offense stunk, now it is vise versa, it is the natural ebb and flow of a growing team. What we really want to see is a healthy Chiefs team headed into the playoffs, with Houston and Hali at full power again. It is a good thing the Chiefs have not peaked to early. Hopefully as the end of the season nears and the playoffs start, we will have a team that has begun to click on both sides of the ball at the same time, and play well as a team when it matters the most.

Nice post !

Mile High Mania
12-04-2013, 12:49 PM
Lots of posters here always come out on the negative side of things, it a safe way to not get attacked here and its the cool thing to do on CP. But I totally agree the Donkos are totally beatable by US! We only lost by a touchdown, and we were with in a few yards of evening the game in the last minute, never mind the 7 points taken off the board with the interception. These two teams are closely matched, if they play 10 times kc wins 3 to 4 of those contest. Moreover if they play 3 times there is a good chance we win one of those match-ups, so if we see them again in the playoffs the odds should actually play to our advantage. One more thing, The defensive was great in beginning of the year, and the offense stunk, now it is vise versa, it is the natural ebb and flow of a growing team. What we really want to see is a healthy Chiefs team headed into the playoffs, with Houston and Hali at full power again. It is a good thing the Chiefs have not peaked to early. Hopefully as the end of the season nears and the playoffs start, we will have a team that has begun to click on both sides of the ball at the same time, and play well as a team when it matters the most.

Totally... :D

Technically, the TD was never taken off the board b/c of the interception... it just never happened. PM helped you out with the 1 INT on KC's side of the field that resulted in a TD, so you're even there.

The Chiefs offense scored 38 points in 2 games against Denver, accounting for 5 TDs.. not bad. The defense has slipped a bit in the last 6 games and while they got to PM a few times in this last game, still had 0 sacks IIRC in two games while giving up 62 total points to Denver's offense along with 962 total yards (SNR hates yardage comments).

DEN - 62 points by the offense / 962 total yards
KC - 38 points by the offense / 796 total yards

Yeah, if the two teams played 10 times, it's likely KC wins a couple... a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Honestly, I'd love to see Round 3 in Denver in January.

flash_80
12-04-2013, 01:28 PM
When you go up by 2 scores, it's time to make the other team work for their scores. Cover deep and intermediate with a few different zone packages and keep everything in front of you. Mix it up, and make Manning guess who is going to be in coverage and who is going to blitz. What this does is it forces them to eat up clock to get down the field and also be patient.

Watching them continuously come out in press man coverage regardless of the situation is what lost the game the last two weeks. I don't understand why you stick with man to man when Denver and San Diego are calling nothing but man coverage beating plays. Is the secondary really that bad at zone to the point where Sutton pretty much never calls it??

See Seattle against New Orleans. Brilliant zone play. Let them have the flats for the most part, and give them only the flats. And have guys cover the flats every once in a while when it starts looking like you are giving up the flats to catch them off guard. When opposing offenses are down by 2-3 scores, it really tests the patience of an offense when you make them dink and dunk down the field. It's seriously inexcusable from a scheming standpoint to give up deep plays when you have a two score lead.

ThaVirus
12-04-2013, 01:38 PM
When you go up by 2 scores, it's time to make the other team work for their scores. Cover deep and intermediate with a few different zone packages and keep everything in front of you. Mix it up, and make Manning guess who is going to be in coverage and who is going to blitz. What this does is it forces them to eat up clock to get down the field and also be patient.

Watching them continuously come out in press man coverage regardless of the situation is what lost the game the last two weeks. I don't understand why you stick with man to man when Denver and San Diego are calling nothing but man coverage beating plays. Is the secondary really that bad at zone to the point where Sutton pretty much never calls it??

See Seattle against New Orleans. Brilliant zone play. Let them have the flats for the most part, and give them only the flats. And have guys cover the flats every once in a while when it starts looking like you are giving up the flats to catch them off guard. When opposing offenses are down by 2-3 scores, it really tests the patience of an offense when you make them dink and dunk down the field. It's seriously inexcusable from a scheming standpoint to give up deep plays when you have a two score lead.

Solid post, n00b.

Mr. Laz
12-04-2013, 01:42 PM
what if our defense could have actually cover someone?

listopencil
12-04-2013, 02:00 PM
Looks like a good place for this:



You Got Served: Not all two-deep coverage is the same

Ted Bartlett Dec 4, 2013 2:30 PM

<article> Happy Wednesday, friends. I watched the film of the Kansas City game Tuesday night, and I was pretty surprised by what I saw in the All-22 view, because it went against the notion I had from watching the TV feed in real-time.

That is, I thought the Chiefs played a lot of single-high safety with an eighth man in the box to stop the run, and crowd short routes. You can't see the alignment of the safeties very well on the live view, and the outcome of the game (lots of deep passing by the Broncos, limited success running the ball) supported my thinking.

After all, the previous week, the Patriots stayed in two-deep all game, and contested every short route in front of it, trying to beat up the Broncos' receivers. That's how you get Knowshon Moreno running 37 times for 224 yards; the offense takes what the defense is giving it.

As it turns out, the Chiefs mostly tried to play two-deep as well; they just weren't quite as committed, or nearly as effective as the Patriots were. As it turns out, the enduring narrative that came out of the telecast of Sunday's game (poor Marcus Cooper!) missed something major as well.

Cooper is the easiest target from among the Chiefs' main corner trio (also including Sean Smith and Brandon Flowers), but he really isn't a slouch. He's good enough to prevent the formerly high-paid Dunta Robinson from seeing the field much this year. Until the last three weeks, Cooper had a positive 8.0 rating by PFF, and now he's at a cumulative negative-3.0.

As they sometimes do, I think that PFF is falling into the trap of imagining that things happen in a vacuum on the football field. It wasn't all Cooper's fault, not by a longshot. I want to look at three huge plays in Sunday's game, where I'm going to put the blame on poor safety play by the Chiefs. That's been their biggest problem the last three weeks, not the struggles of Cooper.

This is the pre-snap look of the first play of the second quarter. The Broncos trail 7-0, and face a 1st-and-10 at the Chiefs 41. Great time and place to try play action, right? Especially so when the tendency to run on 1st-and-10 has been so strong lately
.
The Broncos show 12 personnel here, with both tight ends to the right, and only Moreno in the backfield. The two wideouts on the field (Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker) are at the bottom of each set of numbers, with the corners showing press technique.

(Side note: I would have called illegal formation here, if I were the head linesman. Notice how Decker's left foot is even with the 41 yard line? He's pretty clearly covering up Virgil Green, whose hand is on the 42 yard line. The Broncos are lucky not to have been called, and this is another example of Decker not always playing a strong mental game, despite being such a gritty, heady, blue-collar, lunchpail, (insert your favorite sports euphemism for "white"), kind of guy.)

The Chiefs show two deep safeties, but they're both way inside, especially Eric Berry, who is on the field-side hashmark.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_1.jpg
This is going to be play action, and Eric Decker gets a clean release against Flowers at the bottom of the picture. Flowers is Kansas City's best corner, and typically covers the slot when there is a slot receiver (That's actually the most difficult assignment most of the time).

Berry is squatting at the 30, and his eyes are in the backfield. He really wants to come up into the box and play run defense, because that's what he's best at.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_2.jpg
Berry sees that it's a pass, but he's focused on Joel Dreessen, who has just cleared the LB level at the 35. Throughout this game, the Chiefs linebackers seemed to be assigned to play zone in the hook and flat areas, while everybody else behind them played man or matchup zone.

Meanwhile, Decker has closed the cushion on Flowers, and he's even with him at the 30, but with a step to the inside. In a standard two-man call, Flowers has help, and judging from his outside leverage, I can only assume that was his understanding of the call. Nobody's there, though, and Decker is going to run away from Flowers to the inside.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_3_copy.jpg
Berry follows Dreessen all the way over to the other side of the field, joining Kendrick Lewis, the other safety. Berry clearly busted on this play, because no sound defensive design would have Lewis playing a deep half (at best - maybe a deep third) with Berry assigned to bail on his deep help responsibility to follow a dude like Dreessen.

Flowers can't do anything, because he was beat when he lined up with outside leverage,and Decker is going to score easily thanks to a typically excellent throw from Manning.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_4.jpg
It's not just Berry who had problems. The narrative of Cooper getting abused really began when Demaryius Thomas got deep on him for a 77-yard gain in the third quarter. This is the pre-snap view of that play. Lewis is 23, and he's at the 14, looking inside all the way. Thomas is at the bottom of the numbers, and Cooper has slight outside leverage - again - like he's expecting help inside.

Lewis's depth is important here, because this is a half-assed two-deep look. Lewis is really splitting the difference, like he wants to play the box. Why? Beats the hell out of me. Seems like a bad judgment call; you have trips to his side, with Decker, Wes Welker, and Thomas, and it's the wide side of the field. Staying deep would seem to be in order.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_1.jpg
At the snap, Lewis does retreat to the 20, but his eyes are still way inside. Thomas gets a clean inside release with an outstanding outside-in fake, and this thing is going to be over before it starts. Manning has already spotted the weakness and is about to throw the ball in this shot:
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_2.jpg
At the point of the throw, Lewis is flat-footed, worried about the out-breaking Decker. Thomas is going to make an easy catch, and go for the big gain before Cooper (somehow) catches him. Note the middle linebacker in no-man's land, with nobody near him. He almost certainly should have carried Decker down the seam, but he didn't.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_3.jpg
Cooper could have done a better job, sure, but where was his help? Lewis misdiagnosed the route combination, and got himself caught inside. That's poor safety play, worrying about a 10-yard out, as the outside guy runs a go route on you.

A couple of plays later, the Broncos pick on Lewis again. Here, the call is for a double-post to the 3-by-1 side. Decker is outside, Jacob Tamme is to his left, and Wes Welker is furthest inside. (It's a White-out on the right side.)

Flowers is number 24, and he has an interesting assignment. He's going to jam Tamme, release him, and pick up Welker man-to-man. Cooper is playing off of Decker, with outside leverage, so there's nobody impeding his free release to the inside.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_1.jpg
At the top of Manning's drop, he sees this touchdown very easily. Lewis is on the hash, clearly focusing on Tamme. This actually looks like quarter-quarter-half, like a form of Cover 6, but the way it's playing out, with the linebacker carrying Tamme down the seam, Lewis should be splitting the difference between him and Decker, helping on both.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_2.jpg
Predictably, Decker gets across Cooper's face easily, and Manning has a huge window for the throw.
This play gives the Broncos a lead they'd never relinquish, and once again, it is the result of the failure of a safety to give proper inside help.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_3.jpg
After seeing them twice in three weeks, I don't think the Chiefs' corners are bad, not at all; actually, I think it's their safeties. Berry is good as a box guy, and a nickel linebacker, and he has some skills covering tight ends man-to-man, but as a help guy, he really struggles. Lewis is pretty sorry, and Quintin Demps (who plays a lot) is replacement-level.

The two positions where KC needs to improve to really compete with the Broncos in the future are wide receiver, and a deep centerfielder safety.


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-not-all-two-deep-coverage-is-the-same
</article>

Beef Supreme
12-04-2013, 02:41 PM
If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass hoppin'.

Down4Chiefs
12-04-2013, 04:09 PM
we lost because our secondary put on one of the worst efforts ive seen in the nfl all season. And I think we got exposed at first in the Dallas game we couldn't really stop the long ball,and then again in the Texans game. Ever since then teams have realized it doesn't take a Dez or Andre Johnson. Just about anybody can beat us on the long ball I think now.

Is Eric Berrry comin up short this year or is Lewis really as bad as he looks. It almost looks like he purposely avoids tackles knowing he cant tackle and doesn't want to get embarrassed. I literally have watched him stand there and let players run right past him and their not even moving that fast at the time. He doesn't even bother,and this was at the end of the game with the game on the line I watched this. If your not going to bother tackling up front why are you worried about playing anything but the long ball? at least the qb might be scared to throw it to Decker if he sees you back there. Say what you will about our recievers and ive said plenty all year while you guys swore we had a nice receiving unit. Its pretty obvious DB and safety are our number one concern now.

ThaVirus
12-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Is Eric Berrry comin up short this year or is Lewis really as bad as he looks.

Berry usually seems to play in the box. He's so good against the run and covering TEs that it's just too beneficial to keep him lined up 20 yards off the ball. Despite some lapses he's actually having a great season.

All of our other safeties on the other hand? They all suck. Bad.

Down4Chiefs
12-04-2013, 04:20 PM
Looks like a good place for this:



You Got Served: Not all two-deep coverage is the same

Ted Bartlett Dec 4, 2013 2:30 PM

<article> Happy Wednesday, friends. I watched the film of the Kansas City game Tuesday night, and I was pretty surprised by what I saw in the All-22 view, because it went against the notion I had from watching the TV feed in real-time.

That is, I thought the Chiefs played a lot of single-high safety with an eighth man in the box to stop the run, and crowd short routes. You can't see the alignment of the safeties very well on the live view, and the outcome of the game (lots of deep passing by the Broncos, limited success running the ball) supported my thinking.

After all, the previous week, the Patriots stayed in two-deep all game, and contested every short route in front of it, trying to beat up the Broncos' receivers. That's how you get Knowshon Moreno running 37 times for 224 yards; the offense takes what the defense is giving it.

As it turns out, the Chiefs mostly tried to play two-deep as well; they just weren't quite as committed, or nearly as effective as the Patriots were. As it turns out, the enduring narrative that came out of the telecast of Sunday's game (poor Marcus Cooper!) missed something major as well.

Cooper is the easiest target from among the Chiefs' main corner trio (also including Sean Smith and Brandon Flowers), but he really isn't a slouch. He's good enough to prevent the formerly high-paid Dunta Robinson from seeing the field much this year. Until the last three weeks, Cooper had a positive 8.0 rating by PFF, and now he's at a cumulative negative-3.0.

As they sometimes do, I think that PFF is falling into the trap of imagining that things happen in a vacuum on the football field. It wasn't all Cooper's fault, not by a longshot. I want to look at three huge plays in Sunday's game, where I'm going to put the blame on poor safety play by the Chiefs. That's been their biggest problem the last three weeks, not the struggles of Cooper.

This is the pre-snap look of the first play of the second quarter. The Broncos trail 7-0, and face a 1st-and-10 at the Chiefs 41. Great time and place to try play action, right? Especially so when the tendency to run on 1st-and-10 has been so strong lately
.
The Broncos show 12 personnel here, with both tight ends to the right, and only Moreno in the backfield. The two wideouts on the field (Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker) are at the bottom of each set of numbers, with the corners showing press technique.

(Side note: I would have called illegal formation here, if I were the head linesman. Notice how Decker's left foot is even with the 41 yard line? He's pretty clearly covering up Virgil Green, whose hand is on the 42 yard line. The Broncos are lucky not to have been called, and this is another example of Decker not always playing a strong mental game, despite being such a gritty, heady, blue-collar, lunchpail, (insert your favorite sports euphemism for "white"), kind of guy.)

The Chiefs show two deep safeties, but they're both way inside, especially Eric Berry, who is on the field-side hashmark.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_1.jpg
This is going to be play action, and Eric Decker gets a clean release against Flowers at the bottom of the picture. Flowers is Kansas City's best corner, and typically covers the slot when there is a slot receiver (That's actually the most difficult assignment most of the time).

Berry is squatting at the 30, and his eyes are in the backfield. He really wants to come up into the box and play run defense, because that's what he's best at.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_2.jpg
Berry sees that it's a pass, but he's focused on Joel Dreessen, who has just cleared the LB level at the 35. Throughout this game, the Chiefs linebackers seemed to be assigned to play zone in the hook and flat areas, while everybody else behind them played man or matchup zone.

Meanwhile, Decker has closed the cushion on Flowers, and he's even with him at the 30, but with a step to the inside. In a standard two-man call, Flowers has help, and judging from his outside leverage, I can only assume that was his understanding of the call. Nobody's there, though, and Decker is going to run away from Flowers to the inside.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_3_copy.jpg
Berry follows Dreessen all the way over to the other side of the field, joining Kendrick Lewis, the other safety. Berry clearly busted on this play, because no sound defensive design would have Lewis playing a deep half (at best - maybe a deep third) with Berry assigned to bail on his deep help responsibility to follow a dude like Dreessen.

Flowers can't do anything, because he was beat when he lined up with outside leverage,and Decker is going to score easily thanks to a typically excellent throw from Manning.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_1TD_4.jpg
It's not just Berry who had problems. The narrative of Cooper getting abused really began when Demaryius Thomas got deep on him for a 77-yard gain in the third quarter. This is the pre-snap view of that play. Lewis is 23, and he's at the 14, looking inside all the way. Thomas is at the bottom of the numbers, and Cooper has slight outside leverage - again - like he's expecting help inside.

Lewis's depth is important here, because this is a half-assed two-deep look. Lewis is really splitting the difference, like he wants to play the box. Why? Beats the hell out of me. Seems like a bad judgment call; you have trips to his side, with Decker, Wes Welker, and Thomas, and it's the wide side of the field. Staying deep would seem to be in order.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_1.jpg
At the snap, Lewis does retreat to the 20, but his eyes are still way inside. Thomas gets a clean inside release with an outstanding outside-in fake, and this thing is going to be over before it starts. Manning has already spotted the weakness and is about to throw the ball in this shot:
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_2.jpg
At the point of the throw, Lewis is flat-footed, worried about the out-breaking Decker. Thomas is going to make an easy catch, and go for the big gain before Cooper (somehow) catches him. Note the middle linebacker in no-man's land, with nobody near him. He almost certainly should have carried Decker down the seam, but he didn't.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Thomas_TD_3.jpg
Cooper could have done a better job, sure, but where was his help? Lewis misdiagnosed the route combination, and got himself caught inside. That's poor safety play, worrying about a 10-yard out, as the outside guy runs a go route on you.

A couple of plays later, the Broncos pick on Lewis again. Here, the call is for a double-post to the 3-by-1 side. Decker is outside, Jacob Tamme is to his left, and Wes Welker is furthest inside. (It's a White-out on the right side.)

Flowers is number 24, and he has an interesting assignment. He's going to jam Tamme, release him, and pick up Welker man-to-man. Cooper is playing off of Decker, with outside leverage, so there's nobody impeding his free release to the inside.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_1.jpg
At the top of Manning's drop, he sees this touchdown very easily. Lewis is on the hash, clearly focusing on Tamme. This actually looks like quarter-quarter-half, like a form of Cover 6, but the way it's playing out, with the linebacker carrying Tamme down the seam, Lewis should be splitting the difference between him and Decker, helping on both.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_2.jpg
Predictably, Decker gets across Cooper's face easily, and Manning has a huge window for the throw.
This play gives the Broncos a lead they'd never relinquish, and once again, it is the result of the failure of a safety to give proper inside help.
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/images/screens/20131203_Decker_2TD_3.jpg
After seeing them twice in three weeks, I don't think the Chiefs' corners are bad, not at all; actually, I think it's their safeties. Berry is good as a box guy, and a nickel linebacker, and he has some skills covering tight ends man-to-man, but as a help guy, he really struggles. Lewis is pretty sorry, and Quintin Demps (who plays a lot) is replacement-level.

The two positions where KC needs to improve to really compete with the Broncos in the future are wide receiver, and a deep centerfielder safety.


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-not-all-two-deep-coverage-is-the-same
</article>

thanks for breaking that down,really answered my post. I thought it was DB position as well so good to know. I noticed the DB's did seem frustrated with the safteys as if they felt they weren't getting the help. I at least see Demps is interested in getting in on the action. Lewis looks completely soft and apparently not that intelligent at his position so hes completely useless back there.

and what happened to Hemingway? it was weird he stopped getting play even though he seemed to have the hot hand. did he just disappear or did he get pulled?

TEX
12-04-2013, 04:27 PM
Then that last drive wouldve been a chip shot kick for Succop. My reason for posting this is because I think Denver is beatable....very good...but beatable. Dropped passes that Endzone interception and lack of sacks and pressures gave Denver that win.

Thoughts? :hmmm:

Here is a post a saw on Arrowheadpride earlier with 50 comments on the subject. Other that that throw I thought Smith looked pretty awesome. Too bad the WRs couldn't catch the ball (cough cough AVERY cough) :shake:

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/12/2/5167302/alex-smiths-opening-drive-int

The deal is in spite of it all, IF the WR's don't drop SOOOOOO MANY balls, the Chiefs could have had a great chance at winning the game. Denver is very good, but certainly beatable. You can't make the unforced mistakes KC did and expect to beat Denver.

Three7s
12-04-2013, 05:12 PM
I knew our safeties were terrible. This confirms it!

flash_80
12-04-2013, 05:16 PM
Ouch, that is absolutely atrocious safety play... This is what I was referring to in my earlier post that they should not be leaving the cb's out on an island in man coverage. They are not good enough to compensate for the bad safety positioning on deeper routes. Let them have the damn 10 yard out. DON'T LET THEM HAVE ANYTHING DEEP AT ALL COSTS, especially when you have a lead. Make Manning beat you underneath and protect the lead.

Honestly, after seeing this I can see why the corners are struggling to stay with their man. When you don't have good safety help over the top it's hard to stay with you man on shorter routes with fear of getting beaten deep. Also, when you are expecting help on the inside and your assignment is outside leverage it's easy to blame the cornerback. On both of the deep TD's to Decker, the plays pictured were complete safety ineptitude.