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cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 10:54 AM
I know what ice dams are and what causes them, but here's the situation. I live in KC area, so that's the weather I'm dealing with. The gutters are of course full of ice with long icicles hanging off, but yesterday I noticed in one area what I guess I would describe as "icicles" on the surface of the siding. This particular siding area sits back a couple feet from the roof overhang so about the only way this could happen is melted ice/water from the roof is somehow getting to the surface of the siding where it re-froze.

So, it's pretty obviously from an ice dam but my question--last year I had a new roof installed. High quality, 50-year warranty. My understanding is the ice dam damage is caused by water getting forced back up and under the shingles where it thens leak wherever. Should this be happening with a new roof? Is there possibly an installation problem? Or it is something else and the roof/roofers is not the issue?

Saulbadguy
02-11-2014, 11:05 AM
From what i've read it is caused by poor insulation in your attic. I have the same problem at my house and this year and a couple years ago I actually have water leak in to my house.

I could be wrong, though. Usually turning the heat down fixes the problem.

mikeyis4dcats.
02-11-2014, 11:19 AM
ice dams are caused by warmer air in your attic melting snow and then it refreezes over the eaves. To stop them, you need to a) stop the warm air escaping your living spaces, b) improve ventilation to maintain cold attic air

The water at your siding is caused the melted snow running back along your soffit, possibly inside the attic and down the wall.

They are a bitch. Especially when your gutters freeze solid.

One option is heat tape http://www.qcidirect.com/roof-heat-cables.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=roof-heat-cables&gclid=CM_Zs73KxLwCFSUS7Aod1GQASw

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 11:25 AM
I know they are linked to insulation/ventilation issues, but it is still nearly impossible to completely eliminate those issues.

My question is whether ice/water should be able to get up and under a correctly installed new roof.

And/Or--could the ice formations on the siding surface be caused by something other than a roof problem?

alnorth
02-11-2014, 12:15 PM
I know they are linked to insulation/ventilation issues, but it is still nearly impossible to completely eliminate those issues.

My question is whether ice/water should be able to get up and under a correctly installed new roof.

And/Or--could the ice formations on the siding surface be caused by something other than a roof problem?

A brand-new roof is not going to prevent an ice dam, shingles aren't meant to stop water that is pooling and can't flow down.

You have to prevent the water from forming by making sure your attic isn't warm when you have a lot of ice and snow up there.

mr. tegu
02-11-2014, 12:17 PM
We have an isicle that is about 8 feet long. I think with the sun today it should hit the ground.

alnorth
02-11-2014, 12:21 PM
Here's a helpful picture in case anyone out there doesn't know what an ice dam is. Ice dams are no joke, over a few years if they keep happening they can eventually cause a lot of damage.

http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/v/E/-/-/ice-dam-diagram.JPG

alnorth
02-11-2014, 12:28 PM
I could be wrong, though. Usually turning the heat down fixes the problem.

Yeah, thats pretty much what I do now. My insulation isn't the greatest, but I keep a pretty cool house so I don't really have this problem anymore. I just wear a bunch of layers and sometimes use a space heater when needed. I'm a wimp in the summertime though, I keep that AC cranked.

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 01:53 PM
A brand-new roof is not going to prevent an ice dam, shingles aren't meant to stop water that is pooling and can't flow down.

You have to prevent the water from forming by making sure your attic isn't warm when you have a lot of ice and snow up there.

I realize a new roof wouldn't stop a dam from forming. I guess I mean should it help prevent the ice/water from doing damage. These aren't wood shingles, they are 50-year GAF Timberline and they seemed pretty impenetrable. It seemed like it should keep water from penetrating and getting underneath.

ptlyon
02-11-2014, 02:18 PM
Lots of penetration going on in here...

Stewie
02-11-2014, 02:22 PM
I realize a new roof wouldn't stop a dam from forming. I guess I mean should it help prevent the ice/water from doing damage. These aren't wood shingles, they are 50-year GAF Timberline and they seemed pretty impenetrable. It seemed like it should keep water from penetrating and getting underneath.

When I had my roof installed in '06 I had the option of putting ice dam material on the bottom three feet of the roof. It didn't cost much and I'm glad I did it. It's basically a super sticky piece of plastic sheeting that protects the decking from seeing any water should an ice dam occur. Right now I'm glad I chose to have them do it. I think there's only been one other time that the snow/ice has been like this since I had it installed. Still, well worth it.

Big Smoke
02-11-2014, 02:24 PM
Dental dams.

That is all.

mikeyis4dcats.
02-11-2014, 02:55 PM
I know they are linked to insulation/ventilation issues, but it is still nearly impossible to completely eliminate those issues.

My question is whether ice/water should be able to get up and under a correctly installed new roof.

And/Or--could the ice formations on the siding surface be caused by something other than a roof problem?

unless there is a self-adhesive ice and water shield underneath (unlikely) then yes, strong wind or ice dams can drive water under the shingles.

mikeyis4dcats.
02-11-2014, 02:58 PM
http://www.otaconstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/DSCN1640-568x250.jpg

an example of ice shieldhttp://www.otaconstruction.com/portfolio/proper-underlayment/

TheUte
02-11-2014, 03:01 PM
Simple answer is better insulation in your attic.

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 03:32 PM
Simple answer is better insulation in your attic.

There's no attic above the area at issue. Vaulted ceiling.

BlackHelicopters
02-11-2014, 03:35 PM
Penetration/ Len Dawson

HonestChieffan
02-11-2014, 03:44 PM
There's no attic above the area at issue. Vaulted ceiling.

Even worse. If its a cathedral with not enough vent space expect interior damage when the insulation gets wet. It can wick a lot of water too. You real damage will be this weekend. Temps in the 32 to 35 highs and 20s at night will freeze thaw. Expansion damage as it happens over and over. Wet inside walls nay not be seen interior but sheathing under siding will soak an become punky and rot. Hope it doesnt get mold started.

ptlyon
02-11-2014, 03:46 PM
Dam ice

Bugeater
02-11-2014, 04:03 PM
There's no attic above the area at issue. Vaulted ceiling.
You're pretty much screwed then, best bet is to get one of these roof rakes and keep the snow cleared from the overhangs.

http://www.roofrake.com/images/roofrake-gary.jpg

BWillie
02-11-2014, 04:03 PM
http://www.otaconstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/DSCN1640-568x250.jpg

an example of ice shieldhttp://www.otaconstruction.com/portfolio/proper-underlayment/

Yeah, I just had a new roof put on a couple years ago. I used to have this problem before, and when I got a new roof they put this on and added it as apparently it is Olathe city code. I haven't had a problem since.

TheUte
02-11-2014, 04:06 PM
Found this http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/qa-spotlight/rescuing-problem-cathedral-ceiling

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Even worse. If its a cathedral with not enough vent space expect interior damage when the insulation gets wet. It can wick a lot of water too. You real damage will be this weekend. Temps in the 32 to 35 highs and 20s at night will freeze thaw. Expansion damage as it happens over and over. Wet inside walls nay not be seen interior but sheathing under siding will soak an become punky and rot. Hope it doesnt get mold started.

Its hard to describe the layout, but it looks limited to one particular section of siding. I was planning on painting in the spring, so. I'll probably just remove that piece of siding and see if anything is back there.

Oxford
02-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Simple answer is better insulation in your attic.

It would help your cooling bills in the summer too. Tax deduction, sometime the local utility will offer rebates. In your situation there should be a soffit vent that allows air to flow between the rafters and into the attic. Those shouldn't be blocked and it may benefit to add the turbine power vents on the roof to move air through your attic. That should cool the roof in the winter and the summer

Scooter LaCanforno
02-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Home Depot and hardware stores sell heat cables. Just run the cables and plug them in. They should melt the ice in the gutter.

L.A. Chieffan
02-11-2014, 04:48 PM
Wtf r ice dams on your roof

HonestChieffan
02-11-2014, 04:55 PM
Wtf r ice dams on your roof

A whole world of bad shit if you get them. If you dont just have a beer and relax.

Chazno
02-11-2014, 05:08 PM
I have them bad on one corner of my house. I have a south-facing house and and a roof with multiple peaks. The top of the roof gets sun all day, the water runs down to this corner which is shaded by one of the peaks. It freezes and I get Ice dams.

I have an outlet in the soffit of that corner so a heat cable may work for me if I can get the gutter clear to put it in it.

Iowanian
02-11-2014, 05:25 PM
Relax.

Global Warming is here to save you from your ice dam problems.

Hog's Gone Fishin
02-11-2014, 05:40 PM
This problem is easy to resolve, just spray hot water on to your roof until it has all melted off. Geez!

jspchief
02-11-2014, 06:20 PM
Snow rakes, heat tape, better attic insulation and ventilation. It's all been covered.

LiveSteam
02-11-2014, 06:35 PM
Kill it with fire!

Phobia
02-11-2014, 06:56 PM
I realize a new roof wouldn't stop a dam from forming. I guess I mean should it help prevent the ice/water from doing damage. These aren't wood shingles, they are 50-year GAF Timberline and they seemed pretty impenetrable. It seemed like it should keep water from penetrating and getting underneath.

If they installed Ice and Water shield it should help. This product usually adds several hundred dollars to the price of a roof.

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 07:16 PM
If they installed Ice and Water shield it should help. This product usually adds several hundred dollars to the price of a roof.

Yeah, I don't know if they did. They didn't ask me, I know that.
Got a whole new roof after the hailstorms last year. Insurance paid for the roof + the upgrade to the 50 year material. Guess I'll check the invoice.

Bottom line I guess is that if there is damage to the inside walls or behind the siding, can it be argued that the roofing installers did a shitty job? If it's not their fault, I'm not looking to blame them, I just don't know if any damage (not the dam itself, but any damage from it getting up and under the roof) can be blamed on something not being installed correctly.

Funny I never had a problem before with my aging wood shingle roof. Now I have the new expensive one, and bam. The amount of snow + length of the cold spell is worse than most years though.

cosmo20002
02-11-2014, 07:17 PM
You guys are lame. 34 posts and no one said anti-freeze.

BWillie
02-11-2014, 09:48 PM
You guys are lame. 34 posts and no one said anti-freeze.

Antifreeze.

ping2000
02-11-2014, 11:24 PM
Sucks. You are in the wrong universe. The other you's don't have this problem in the other universes.

65TPT
02-11-2014, 11:29 PM
aids tree fire

Dayze
02-11-2014, 11:32 PM
"Is that a God Damn"?

http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beavis-butthead_20110722163127-300x243.jpg

65TPT
02-11-2014, 11:37 PM
so I guess you can undamn it

65TPT
02-11-2014, 11:38 PM
Is this why rednecks never remove their christmas lights?

Phobia
02-12-2014, 12:41 AM
Yeah, I don't know if they did. They didn't ask me, I know that.
Got a whole new roof after the hailstorms last year. Insurance paid for the roof + the upgrade to the 50 year material. Guess I'll check the invoice.

Bottom line I guess is that if there is damage to the inside walls or behind the siding, can it be argued that the roofing installers did a shitty job? If it's not their fault, I'm not looking to blame them, I just don't know if any damage (not the dam itself, but any damage from it getting up and under the roof) can be blamed on something not being installed correctly.

Funny I never had a problem before with my aging wood shingle roof. Now I have the new expensive one, and bam. The amount of snow + length of the cold spell is worse than most years though.

You didn't have a problem because shake roofs breath a lot better than asphalt. Roofers are not responsible for anything except for placing enough vents up top to meet code (one vent for every 150 sqft attic space). They're not responsible for installing ice & water shield unless local code requires it or you pay for the upgrade. Even if you wanted to be a dick, you couldn't pin it on them. It's simply not their fault.

cosmo20002
02-12-2014, 01:17 AM
You didn't have a problem because shake roofs breath a lot better than asphalt. Roofers are not responsible for anything except for placing enough vents up top to meet code (one vent for every 150 sqft attic space). They're not responsible for installing ice & water shield unless local code requires it or you pay for the upgrade. Even if you wanted to be a dick, you couldn't pin it on them. It's simply not their fault.

Hmmm. So do the local codes around here usually require it? I'm in Shawnee, but I'd assume they are all pretty similar.

Phobia
02-12-2014, 01:21 AM
You'd have to check with Johnson County.

That ice and water shield won't prevent dams but it will help prevent penetration into the attic/decking should a dam form.

cosmo20002
02-12-2014, 01:28 AM
You'd have to check with Johnson County.

That ice and water shield won't prevent dams but it will help prevent penetration into the attic/decking should a dam form.

Residential
Ice barrier. An ice barrier (ice dam membrane) that consists of at least two layers of underlayment cemented together or of a self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from the lowest edges of all roof surfaces to a point at least 24 inside the exterior wall line of the building.

An ice dam protection membrane should be applied starting at a roof's eaves and extending upslope a minimum of 24 inches from the exterior wall line of a building. For slopes less than 4:12 (18 degrees), a minimum of 36 inches is recommended. See Figure 1.