Cops & Homeless Man

[Jimmya]

http://www.newschannel10.com/story/25060486/critics-question-the-fatal-shooting-of-a-homeless-camper


Critics question the fatal shooting of a homeless camper
Posted: Mar 24, 2014 5:20 PM CDT
Updated: Mar 24, 2014 4:50 PM CDT





New Mexico - Critics of the Albuquerque Police Department are raising serious questions about the fatal shooting of a homeless camper.

38-year-old James Boyd argued with police for more three hours last Sunday about illegally camping in open space.

Boyd continued to refuse officer commands and began threatening their lives causing officers to open fire.

Boyd had a violent 20-year criminal history including multiple incidents of violence against officers and years of mental health related concerns.

[Jimmya]

Sorry the video is in the link. It's crazy.

[In58men]

Hey let's arrest him either know he's dead.

[SeeingRed]

Thats murder...were talking with him for 3 hours....they couldnt get a tazer gun? Not buying it. they also shot him in the back. Murder....badge or no badge.

[TimeForWasp]

That shit is fucked up. Police murdered this guy , I don't give a fuck what he did in the past.

[Donger]

Watch the video before reaching any conclusions.

[In58men]

Watch the video before reaching any conclusions.

Yep same result, murder.

[SeeingRed]

guy was not an aggressive threat...was not walking towards them aggressively and in fact shots were fired when turned to run after being shot initially. The first shot may not have killed him. they couldnt radio in for tazer gun if they didnt have one? no they wanted to kill that guy. it was not self defense, it was murder. its very clear.

[TimeForWasp]

I didn't make my conclusion till I watched. Fucking murder.

[Donger]

Yep same result, murder.

After three hours, they apparently decided to throw a flash bang at him and send in the dog. He didn't go down. He then reached into his clothing. They shot him.

[TimeForWasp]

God I hate this police state we are coming to.

[TimeForWasp]

Donger, they murdered that fucking guy.

[TimeForWasp]

They didn't kick him after fatally shooting him, They did worse, Shot him with bean bag gun 3 more times. I fucking hate cops. Think they are the law.

[In58men]

After three hours, they apparently decided to throw a flash bang at him and send in the dog. He didn't go down. He then reached into his clothing. They shot him.

Oh ****, if you didn't think that was excessive force then you my friend are in denial.

[SeeingRed]

it says they tried tazering him before they shot him...they are lying

[-King-]

That's murder.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Cannibal]

Murder.

[LoneWolf]

Suicide by cop. He got exactly what he wanted.

[planetdoc]

thats homicide. If DA wont prosecute, they better send it to a grand jury.

[The Franchise]

Suicide by cop. He got exactly what he wanted.

This.

[BullJunkandIron]

Murdering pigs. Raider fans.

[WhawhaWhat]

I like how they use the non-lethal force after they already killed him... by shooting him in the back.

[TLO]

Looks pulled a knife out after the flash bang went off. If the guy was mentally ill, (which was pretty evident just by watching the short video), why wasn't he being helped so something like this never had an opportunity to present itself? No mental health budget I guess.

I think the officers plan failed. They probably expected him to go down when the flash bang went off. When he panicked and grabbed his knife, the officers panicked and put him down. Should have tazed him or shot him with bean bags as soon as the flash bang went.

[Fishpicker]

the homeless man had two knives in his hands. the officer that attacked him first had 42 knives in his mouth.

too close to call for me.

my only judgement is that the cop with the go pro camera is a ****ing moron. he was was firing auto bursts right over another cops shoulder WHILE they were moving forward toward the perp. the moron cop got lucky that the canine handler pulled his dog back just before the gunfire

someone shouted booyah to celebrate the gunfight. that doesn't look good for the cops

[Jimmya]

I think bean bags and a taser would have got it done!

[Jimmya]

I think what's also crazy is that they showed the whole press conference with the unedited video on the nightly news.

[Rasputin]

I think it should go to a jury trial. I don't know if the man has any family but maybe they could get a wrongful death case against the police department?


So much the cops could have done different even offer the guy food and a place to stay? I think they could have had a female reason with the guy and not be honcho Mr. Tough Cop. They handled this very poorly & should be held accountable.

[GloucesterChief]

I think what's also crazy is that they showed the whole press conference with the unedited video on the nightly news.

Well apparently the cops can beat a homeless man to death on videotape and not get convicted, so shooting shouldn't be a problem right?

Police departments as a whole have a very good track record of getting away with murder.

[Rasputin]

Why didn't they just use the damn cop dog to unarm the homeless guy with knives? THAT is the job of a K9 cop dog. That dog could have solved all this from 3 hours of bull shit talk that went no where. The dog would have been a hero and the dude would have lived.

[crazycoffey]

Why didn't they just use the damn cop dog to unarm the homeless guy with knives? THAT is the job of a K9 cop dog. That dog could have solved all this from 3 hours of bull shit talk that went no where. The dog would have been a hero and the dude would have lived.

Wut?

K9s are very costly, and trained to grab/bite an arm, they can still be stabbed with the other arm....

[Rasputin]

Wut?

K9s are very costly, and trained to grab/bite an arm, they can still be stabbed with the other arm....

So you value a dog over a human life?

[crazycoffey]

I like how they use the non-lethal force after they already killed him... by shooting him in the back.

He still had the knives, and they didn't know he had a fatal wound. When the cops moved in to make the arrest be pulled out two knives. Knives are considered deadly force. It's a shame because he needed a lot of mental help, but the only person that failed him was himself. His history suggests he has talked to doctors before, he probably wasn't following the doctors diagnoses and treatment plan.

[crazycoffey]

So you value a dog over a human life?

Do you value a criminal's life over an officer's? Don't troll, I'm trying to just give perspective. The two officers moving in were in immediate physical life threatening danger. It's suicide by cop, from a poor sap that had some wires crossed. It's tragic.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That is straight up murder by three cowards.

[Stanley Nickels]

Do you value a criminal's life over an officer's? Don't troll, I'm trying to just give perspective. The two officers moving in were in immediate physical life threatening danger. It's suicide by cop, from a poor sap that had some wires crossed. It's tragic.

That's a red herring, the question was whether that mans life could've been spared if it meant risking the dog's life. I think so, and I think it's ridiculous to cite the cost of the dog to defend the officers' actions.

[crazycoffey]

That's a red herring, the question was whether that mans life could've been spared if it meant risking the dog's life. I think so, and I think it's ridiculous to cite the cost of the dog to defend the officers' actions.

Well I didn't mean it like a defense for the officers actions, the actions of the officers are already clearly defended by the actions of pulling knives when getting arrested. Using the dog (a tool for the officers) would be misuse in this instance. Dogs are not the answer for deadly force.

And the mans life could've been spared like it had in precious occasions when he didn't pull knives out on the arresting officers.

Can we please not lose personal accountability.

[Rasputin]

Do you value a criminal's life over an officer's? Don't troll, I'm trying to just give perspective. The two officers moving in were in immediate physical life threatening danger. It's suicide by cop, from a poor sap that had some wires crossed. It's tragic.


First that dog could have rip that guy a new one disarming him and taking him down to keep the human cops safe and they then could zone in on the guy to handcuff him. I doubt the dog would have got seriously injured if properly trained.

I don't know his mental state of mind they say he had mental problems but if he was capable of being honest with himself then human life is more important. So what if he wanted to sleep in the park he was homeless? Three hours arguing with the guy when they could have been more civil and less threatening themselves. I bet a WOMAN could have offered the man a samwich and a place to go for shelter and he would have listened and say thank you.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

.

Can we please not lose personal accountability.

Like accountability for multiple trained officers with incapacitating weapons and an attack dog who decide that shooting a man in the back in the best course of action?

[Rasputin]

What I am saying crazycoffee is that they did not waist all means necessary before using lethal force. The cops could have tried other ways before killing the guy.

[Randallflagg]

Do you value a criminal's life over an officer's? Don't troll, I'm trying to just give perspective. The two officers moving in were in immediate physical life threatening danger. It's suicide by cop, from a poor sap that had some wires crossed. It's tragic.


You know, I was visiting friends in Louisville KY back in the 70s. A news cast that evening was talking about a Police shooting in Cherokee Park (where the hippies hung out) and they identified the victim as being mentally unstable. The report went on to say that he was shot while running naked through the park. The Police on the scene claimed he had a concealed weapon. Swear to God that story is the truth. Guess they were afraid of his Johnson...

I was raised to respect the Police. Had an Uncle who was a cop for 30 years. I wasn't there and I don't know what actually happened. However, there are FAR too many incidents of this crap happening today. If they aren't entering a persons property and shooting barking dogs, they are killing citizens rather than using less than lethal force. I have lost all respect for cops.

Guess it's just a sign of the times we live in...

[TimeForWasp]

The bean bag gun was enough by itself to subdue this guy.

[-King-]

Do you value a criminal's life over an officer's? Don't troll, I'm trying to just give perspective. The two officers moving in were in immediate physical life threatening danger. It's suicide by cop, from a poor sap that had some wires crossed. It's tragic.

No they weren't. Unless the guy was planning to throw the knives while facing away from the cops.

[BullJunkandIron]

2nd grade playground bullies with badges.

[crazycoffey]

What I am saying crazycoffee is that they did not waist all means necessary before using lethal force. The cops could have tried other ways before killing the guy.

But what you don't understand, the game changed when he pulled out the knives. You don't taze a knife wielding man, capable of using them, regardless of his living conditions, religion, race or mental state. You meet deadly force with deadly force. If I'm there I do the same thing before he uses the knives against me, co-workers, or the dog.

The caveat being if he was a 80 year old man where it would be harder to believe the mans threats to kill me with knives he could barely hold, let alone swing or throw at the other officers.

[crazycoffey]

You know, I was visiting friends in Louisville KY back in the 70s. A news cast that evening was talking about a Police shooting in Cherokee Park (where the hippies hung out) and they identified the victim as being mentally unstable. The report went on to say that he was shot while running naked through the park. The Police on the scene claimed he had a concealed weapon. Swear to God that story is the truth. Guess they were afraid of his Johnson...

I was raised to respect the Police. Had an Uncle who was a cop for 30 years. I wasn't there and I don't know what actually happened. However, there are FAR too many incidents of this crap happening today. If they aren't entering a persons property and shooting barking dogs, they are killing citizens rather than using less than lethal force. I have lost all respect for cops.

Guess it's just a sign of the times we live in...

No it's not, it's be same arguement that school shootings are on the rise, they really aren't, it's that news is easier to obtain. "Less than one half of one percent of all US police are as corrupt as you claim, that's better averages than clergymen". /Paul Harvey.

As to the rest of this story (see what I did there?) some of you have cinematic opinions about what a slightly moderate trained human being can do with a knife, let alone get lucky, I don't get paid enough money to take that chance, if I feel threatened, I'm pulling that trigger.

[Easy 6]

If they had actually used a tazer that would've ended it, no one can take a shot from those and go on... if they have an honest coroner he'll confirm that there are no taser marks.

[crazycoffey]

If they had actually used a tazer that would've ended it, no one can take a shot from those and go on... if they have an honest coroner he'll confirm that there are no taser marks.

I've seen people pull the taser needles out of their skin while getting a full charge. Then I watched him pull his nut sack open (like hulk Hogan pulling his shirt off before a bout) and fling one of his nuts on the wall because he didn't think I could make him leave his house. He was being arrested for stabbing his brother in the leg because it was his turn to fuck their mother that night and the other brother said no.

[Rasputin]

But what you don't understand, the game changed when he pulled out the knives. You don't taze a knife wielding man, capable of using them, regardless of his living conditions, religion, race or mental state. You meet deadly force with deadly force. If I'm there I do the same thing before he uses the knives against me, co-workers, or the dog.

The caveat being if he was a 80 year old man where it would be harder to believe the mans threats to kill me with knives he could barely hold, let alone swing or throw at the other officers.



Well I find that totally not true. In fact I witnessed a bike cop get off his bike and taze a dude coming at him that apparently had a knife. It happened right in front of our apartment like it was "Cops in 3d" The dude fell flat on his face onto concrete. The cop was then able to hand cuff him and they took him away. First the cop warned the guy but the guy who was a good 6'3" kept lunging for him and even told the cop to shoot. He used a tazer and down he went. So I know good and well tazers work & that is what they used to stop him in his tracks. So don't tell me tazers don't work I've seen it work.

[crazycoffey]

Well I find that totally not true. In fact I witnessed a bike cop get off his bike and taze a dude coming at him that apparently had a knife. It happened right in front of our apartment like it was "Cops in 3d" The dude fell flat on his face onto concrete. The cop was then able to hand cuff him and they took him away. First the cop warned the guy but the guy who was a good 6'3" kept lunging for him and even told the cop to shoot. He used a tazer and down he went. So I know good and well tazers work & that is what they used to stop him in his tracks. So don't tell me tazers don't work I've seen it work.

And I've seen them not work too, see above. That's great that it worked in tat case, but if he had shot the guy it wouldn't be "murder".

[HoneyBadger]

Well I find that totally not true. In fact I witnessed a bike cop get off his bike and taze a dude coming at him that apparently had a knife. It happened right in front of our apartment like it was "Cops in 3d" The dude fell flat on his face onto concrete. The cop was then able to hand cuff him and they took him away. First the cop warned the guy but the guy who was a good 6'3" kept lunging for him and even told the cop to shoot. He used a tazer and down he went. So I know good and well tazers work & that is what they used to stop him in his tracks. So don't tell me tazers don't work I've seen it work.

I've seen tazers not work too.

Video aside, are you saying you would risk dying by being stabbed because you tried to taze someone rather than shoot them?

It's basic policing, you meet force with force. A knife is deadly force.

[Rasputin]

Well just seems to me in this case the cops were tired of dealing with the guy so they let him have it. They were the ones being aggressive and agitating the guy who just wanted to be left alone. That's how I see it yet there are laws for vagrants not to sleep in parks. It was a bad stand off the guy lost.

[HoneyBadger]

Well just seems to me in this case the cops were tired of dealing with the guy so they let him have it. They were the ones being aggressive and agitating the guy who just wanted to be left alone. That's how I see it yet there are laws for vagrants not to sleep in parks. It was a bad stand off the guy lost.

And I think common sense didn't win out. A normal person, with guns pointed at them, will do what they are told and not argue holding knives.

[Randallflagg]

No it's not, it's be same arguement that school shootings are on the rise, they really aren't, it's that news is easier to obtain. "Less than one half of one percent of all US police are as corrupt as you claim, that's better averages than clergymen". /Paul Harvey.

As to the rest of this story (see what I did there?) some of you have cinematic opinions about what a slightly moderate trained human being can do with a knife, let alone get lucky, I don't get paid enough money to take that chance, if I feel threatened, I'm pulling that trigger.


Like I said, I have no respect for police any longer. Haven't had any for the last 5 or so years. That cop in Texas that shot that 76 year old man because he reached for his cane (now a cane "looks" like a shotgun) is proof that they would rather shoot first - and then do the paperwork.

I did 2 tours in Viet Nam. I KNOW when to shoot and when NOT to shoot. I carried a weapon all over Europe for 13 years. 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I KNOW when to shoot and when NOT to shoot. PLEASE explain to me, how several officers staring at a man's back are in "immediate danger". If an intruder breaks into my home and I shoot him in the back - I will most likely face charges of murder. That man might have been fleeing from my home.

Finally, if you don't "get paid enough money to take that chance" - I suggest you find another way to earn a living.

[Easy 6]

I've seen people pull the taser needles out of their skin while getting a full charge. Then I watched him pull his nut sack open (like hulk Hogan pulling his shirt off before a bout) and fling one of his nuts on the wall because he didn't think I could make him leave his house. He was being arrested for stabbing his brother in the leg because it was his turn to **** their mother that night and the other brother said no.

So this guy not only shrugged off a tazer, but he tore open his scrotum and literally ripped off one of his nuts?

Am I reading that right, or am I missing some something here?

The mom part? I don't even...

[Rasputin]

I've seen tazers not work too.

Video aside, are you saying you would risk dying by being stabbed because you tried to taze someone rather than shoot them?

It's basic policing, you meet force with force. A knife is deadly force.



I also know that in some cases tazers don't work especially if a guy is on something and his adrenalin is rushing. In this case I said I thought the dog should have or could have been able to disarm him and take the guy down for the cops to come in. I wasn't even talking about tazing but that got brought up. Anyways I also think a woman could have talked her way to get the guy to sit down and eat a samwich then talk to the guy to stay somewhere else. The cops were aggressive from the start and lasted three hours & I think they could have handled it in a peaceful manner by being nice to begin with.

JMO.

[crazycoffey]

Well just seems to me in this case the cops were tired of dealing with the guy so they let him have it. They were the ones being aggressive and agitating the guy who just wanted to be left alone. That's how I see it yet there are laws for vagrants not to sleep in parks. It was a bad stand off the guy lost.

It is absolutely a tragic way for him to go. I'm in full agreement with you that I don't like it ending this way, human life is very important to me. The decision to work in this field for 20 years now is not one I don't take lightly, I hope I act as well as I can in any situations I face and always hope three very serious things if I'm ever in this situation. That I go home, that I don't pull the trigger unless I have too and I can live with the decision.

[Fishpicker]

I'm not even sure that the 2 knives were the threat that set the cops off. The homeless man was speaking word salad and mentioned murder, assault, getting hurt, and takeover. we'll just count that as one verbal threat. he turned his back to the officers and the knives became visible. flashing knives and guns at cops, even unintentionally, is a threat. that's 2. The biggest threat is him turning around and picking up his backpack/box. 3

WHATS IN THE BAAAWWWWWXXX?!!?!

and the fourth threat is the obvious one, drawing knives.

[crazycoffey]

So this guy not only shrugged off a tazer, but he tore open his scrotum and literally ripped off one of his nuts?

Am I reading that right, or am I missing some something here?

The mom part? I don't even...

You got it. Sickos all of them. The brothers used to fight with samurai swords in the street. Have been arrested for flashing at the grocery store, have histories with drugs and running/fighting from/with us.

My partner had a little crusty piece of hairy ball sack on his calf area on his pants that we didn't notice until a couple hours later. Lol

[Rasputin]

And I think common sense didn't win out. A normal person, with guns pointed at them, will do what they are told and not argue holding knives.



Ok I get this for an argument. He didn't have any common sense. Someone else said suicide by cop that could also be the case.

I just think the dog could have put the guy down and cops subdue him & it would have been over in minutes.

Let the dog do his job.

[Easy 6]

You got it. Sickos all of them. The brothers used to fight with samurai swords in the street. Have been arrested for flashing at the grocery store, have histories with drugs and running/fighting from/with us.

My partner had a little crusty piece of hairy ball sack on his calf area on his pants that we didn't notice until a couple hours later. Lol

I was beginning to think... actually, I was hoping, that you were just laying it on thick there.

THEY should be the ones getting shot here...

[crazycoffey]

I was beginning to think... actually, I was hoping, that you were just laying it on thick there.

THEY should be the ones getting shot here...

The knife was still in the brother, if he had that in his hand, and if I felt threatened, I probably would have shot him before tasing him....

Ok, I've said my peace here on this tragic topic. I'll not return so the cop bashers can come back and vent their hate for other human beings.

[-King-]

I've seen tazers not work too.

Video aside, are you saying you would risk dying by being stabbed because you tried to taze someone rather than shoot them?

It's basic policing, you meet force with force. A knife is deadly force.

There was no "force"

[Randallflagg]

Look, I would never say that there aren't times when deadly force NEEDS to be used to save lives - whether it be the Police or the public. I fully support an officers responsibility to have to make that split-second decision. The Officer that shot that old man in Texas was cleared of any wrong doing but that does little for the 76 year old invalid.

The cop that shot that service dog in Filer Idaho and then watched as the dog crawled away to die was cleared also. Even after he cursed at the invalid in a wheelchair for letting the dog outside. Doesn't do a damned thing for the invalid whose dog was executed in his front yard. That cop is a fat-assed piece of crap.

This story, however, seems to go well beyond the norm for "abuse of power". All the firepower that they had at their disposal against a couple of knives held by a man with his back to them. Sorry, there is no excuse for that and those cops should be held for trial. They will not be.

Again, that's the times we live in. Get used to it. It will probably get much worse before it gets better.

[Demonpenz]

Cops need to shoot more people.

[Simply Red]

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[big_lebowski33]

Well I find that totally not true. In fact I witnessed a bike cop get off his bike and taze a dude coming at him that apparently had a knife. It happened right in front of our apartment like it was "Cops in 3d" The dude fell flat on his face onto concrete. The cop was then able to hand cuff him and they took him away. First the cop warned the guy but the guy who was a good 6'3" kept lunging for him and even told the cop to shoot. He used a tazer and down he went. So I know good and well tazers work & that is what they used to stop him in his tracks. So don't tell me tazers don't work I've seen it work.

That's nice the cop was able to stop the guy with a tazer but someone running at you with a knife is enough to use deadly force. That guy is lucky he's still alive.

[beach tribe]

I wonder what the over/under on how many people police murder a month would be if all facts were brought to light?

[big_lebowski33]

If the homeless guy pulled the knife when the dog is on him then he's getting shot. that dog is a police officer. You stab or shoot a police dog you're going to be met with deadly force. It's unfortunate they couldn't get this taken care of in a non lethal manner. Shouldnt have gone on for over 3 hours. In my opinion should have used non lethal when he wasn't listening to commands. Other ways this could have been handled so no one losses a life.

[beach tribe]

Look, I would never say that there aren't times when deadly force NEEDS to be used to save lives - whether it be the Police or the public. I fully support an officers responsibility to have to make that split-second decision. The Officer that shot that old man in Texas was cleared of any wrong doing but that does little for the 76 year old invalid.

The cop that shot that service dog in Filer Idaho and then watched as the dog crawled away to die was cleared also. Even after he cursed at the invalid in a wheelchair for letting the dog outside. Doesn't do a damned thing for the invalid whose dog was executed in his front yard. That cop is a fat-assed piece of crap.

This story, however, seems to go well beyond the norm for "abuse of power". All the firepower that they had at their disposal against a couple of knives held by a man with his back to them. Sorry, there is no excuse for that and those cops should be held for trial. They will not be.

Again, that's the times we live in. Get used to it. It will probably get much worse before it gets better.
Hell, yeah.

I am in total support of using deadly force if a guy is coming at you with a knife, or the equivalent.
But am under no such illusion that a lot of cops don't shoot first, ask questions later, and tell whatever story is needed, truthful or otherwise to justify taking someone's life in the line of duty.
To a lot of police, from what I have seen, believe that they are almost a different species than the rest of the population, and the rules apply to everyone else, are not meant for them, and the lives, and lively hoods of everyone else are worth very little.

I have also met police that are some of the best human beings on the planet and do not want to convey the message that I believe that everyone wearing a badge is like the people described above.

[Randallflagg]

I know that it is not the same thing, but check this video out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9GmUcp0Mo


Again, I grew up with an Uncle that was a cop. Were he still alive, he would have kicked this Cop's ass up one side of the street and down the other. The most unprofessional example of police "professionalism" that I have ever seen. And he us still on the job. Gee, I can't imagine how UPS, Fed Ex and the mailman were ever able to do their jobs around these "mad dogs".

[crazycoffey]

That needs a different thread, it's completely different. I have a real hard time believing he felt threatened by that dog. I also hate that site, it promotes a negative agenda.

[TripleThreat]

im usually on the cops side with this type of stuff but that was f'ed up imo... The guy looked scared when they shot the smoke, and he didn't know wether to put his hands up or down, and the minute he started to go to the ground the other way they shot him.. I mean honestly that was 5-10 seconds tops before they shot if that.. and you gotta know his mind is going crazy the minute they fired some stuff and is probably in shock trying to react to the situation and what they are saying to him... I feel sorry for the guy regardless of his past..

This is why I keep out of crap like that though and if theres trouble I don't sit there arguing with cops to get myself into trouble.. Why even put myself in a situation like that.

[TripleThreat]

I wonder what the over/under on how many people police murder a month would be if all facts were brought to light?

2 cops in every state die a year on average, so that means 100cops die a year.. so in "theory" over a thousand cops have died since 2004.. And I believe that statistic is not counting friendly fire...

[T-post Tom]

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[TimBone]

So this guy not only shrugged off a tazer, but he tore open his scrotum and literally ripped off one of his nuts?

Am I reading that right, or am I missing some something here?

The mom part? I don't even...

lol, right? Super fucked up people out there.


CC, I want to defend the officers because I realize how tough their job can be, especially when every yahoo civilian wants to question their every move. My only problem in this case is that they shot as the man was turning his back on them. Any solid reasoning for that?

[big_lebowski33]

im usually on the cops side with this type of stuff but that was f'ed up imo... The guy looked scared when they shot the smoke, and he didn't know wether to put his hands up or down, and the minute he started to go to the ground the other way they shot him.. I mean honestly that was 5-10 seconds tops before they shot if that.. and you gotta know his mind is going crazy the minute they fired some stuff and is probably in shock trying to react to the situation and what they are saying to him... I feel sorry for the guy regardless of his past..

This is why I keep out of crap like that though and if theres trouble I don't sit there arguing with cops to get myself into trouble.. Why even put myself in a situation like that.

So they should of waited to shoot him after he stabbed and killed the police dog? As soon as they shot him and he hit the ground they were yelling at him to drop the knifes. Which makes me believe he pulled the knife when the dog was on him. Which would make deadly force justified since the guy had the ability, the means, the opportunity and the intent to kill that police dog. You need those 4 things to justify deadly force to protect yourself or others. Or maybe I missed something in the video. But I think other actions could have been taken to prevent this from happening.

[TripleThreat]

So they should of waited to shoot him after he stabbed and killed the police dog? As soon as they shot him and he hit the ground they were yelling at him to drop the knifes. Which makes me believe he pulled the knife when the dog was on him. Which would make deadly force justified since the guy had the ability, the means, the opportunity and the intent to kill that police dog. You need those 4 things to justify deadly force to protect yourself or others. Or maybe I missed something in the video. But I think other actions could have been taken to prevent this from happening.

if he "pulled" the knife then yeah, that's a act of violence and if he is a Skilled daggersman (hell if I know) he could throw it at a cop and kill him.. Im just saying from what I can see on the video which is the only evidence I can go buy.. I cant see if he had that knife in his hand the entire time or just when shit hit the fan..

if he had the knife in his hand the entire time then it doesn't make sense on that being the reason they decided to shoot 3 hours later when hes had it in his hand the whole time..

[crazycoffey]

lol, right? Super ****ed up people out there.


CC, I want to defend the officers because I realize how tough their job can be, especially when every yahoo civilian wants to question their every move. My only problem in this case is that they shot as the man was turning his back on them. Any solid reasoning for that?

I said I would leave so the bashers could vent, but you gave me a direct question. It's a real time video, it's sooooo easy to arm chair QB the decisions. I can't speak to how these two officers felt, but I can put it in my own perspective.

Once the guy produced the two knives (after the flash grenade and the decision to go "hands on"), I'd have one second to decide if all his threats (from previous encounters, and/or the three hour conversation could be legit, how credible those threats are (could he possibly kill someone with those knives) and if I thought my life or someone else's life was in danger.

I watched the video a couple times. As two cops move up to arrest him, he dropped his bag and produced two knives. He took a stance of some sort. The first officer fired and the second officer fired with in milliseconds of each other. They are the "over watch" for the k9 officer (no gun drawn and within 10 feet of the wielded knives, the predesignated radius of leathal knife attacks) and the other "hands on" officer who was moving in to handcuff the guy.

Could he throw the knives? Accurately? Luckily? Did he flench and turn his back because he was hit by a bullet? Was he ducking and preparing to throw a knife?

That's a lot of questions I wouldn't be able to answer. Not even now as an arm chair QB, let alone react to in real time. You, and others, are claiming/asking if the shots were illegal because he was shot in the back, like it's so easy to know the outcome/intent. Or that he wasn't a real threat because he only had knives. But sick and drugged people in similar situations have been credible lethal threats with less than knives.

Try not to focus on just the tragedy this human being lost his life, but remember the tragedy of another human living with taking a life. It's equally as disturbing. Calling him a murderer isn't remotely fair. It's hyperbole. It's political agenda and fame hunting getting the best of someone and influencing the diagnosis of this situation. Don't buy it, feed it or give it merit. The tragic truth is this man died because he didn't accept help for many years, and let the voices in his head dictate the outcome of how his life ended.

[big_lebowski33]

if he "pulled" the knife then yeah, that's a act of violence and if he is a Skilled daggersman (hell if I know) he could throw it at a cop and kill him.. Im just saying from what I can see on the video which is the only evidence I can go buy.. I cant see if he had that knife in his hand the entire time or just when shit hit the fan..

if he had the knife in his hand the entire time then it doesn't make sense on that being the reason they decided to shoot 3 hours later when hes had it in his hand the whole time..

Yea I don't know if he had the knife out already before they sent the dog, couldn't tell. If he did then I wouldn't have sent the dog, you wouldn't want to put the dog in that kind of situation. As a police officer you wouldn't just walk up on a suspect wielding a knife and go hands on. If he already had the knife out before the dog went in then they messed up imo.

[T-post Tom]

...My only problem in this case is that they shot as the man was turning his back on them. Any solid reasoning for that?

No solid reason. None. One of the cops that shot first was fired from the NM state police for fraud. Originally wasn't supposed to carry a gun when hired on by APD. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[big_lebowski33]

Anyway you look at it knifes are for sure "real" threats. At my job we always consider the 21 foot rule. A suspect with a knife can close a 21 foot distance and stab you before an officer can draw from a holster and fire a round. Also knifes never run out of "bullets."

[crazycoffey]

No solid reason. None. One of the cops that shot first was fired from the NM state police for fraud. Originally wasn't supposed to carry a gun when hired on by APD. Go figure. :rolleyes:

What's the solid reasoning for dropping his bags and producing two knives as the officers approached him?

[T-post Tom]

What's the solid reasoning for dropping his bags and producing two knives as the officers approached him?

I think your avy sums up your position on this topic. But that's ok. Your imperfections pale in comparison to mine. :) Agree to disagree. No amount of arguing is going to change what happened.

[ChiliConCarnage]

Anyway you look at it knifes are for sure "real" threats. At my job we always consider the 21 foot rule. A suspect with a knife can close a 21 foot distance and stab you before an officer can draw from a holster and fire a round. Also knifes never run out of "bullets."

Sure.. if they can avoid falling into any holes in the ground

[Jimmya]

Mayor from the city agrees with most on here. Cops screwed up.

[Strongside]

I have family in law enforcement. I realize that not all, even the majority are not bad people. But there is a serious epidemic in this country right now regarding horrible police acts. You have guys that were power-hungry jocks and bullies in high school getting an associates degree in criminal justice and then you hand them a weapon and give them complete freedom to piss on the rights of free men and women when they perceive a threat.

I see this and, in many cases, I wonder, "what is the difference between this and the treatment we see individuals receiving from the SS or state police of Nazi Germany in archive footage?"...there isn't one. We are considered the 'world police' and are quick to jump into action to aid countries where human rights are being abused, but we ignore it when it's happening in our own backyard.

This is murder, plain and simple. You won't convince me otherwise.

[SeeingRed]

The video is now disabled. :-/ i went to send it to my buddy who is a cop in a bad area and deals with violent perps all day...wanted to get his opinion. But now video cannot be seen.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Stupid dog lol

[Gonzo]

That blue meth down in the ABQ is some potent shit.

[Graystoke]

Looks like murder to me.
To Protect and Serve....ya right.

[WhawhaWhat]

The video is now disabled. :-/ i went to send it to my buddy who is a cop in a bad area and deals with violent perps all day...wanted to get his opinion. But now video cannot be seen.

Obviously NSFW.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DngOL6LokN4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[The Franchise]

I like how they use the non-lethal force after they already killed him... by shooting him in the back.

He was still alive dipshit....you could hear him and see him moving.

[crazycoffey]

He was still alive dipshit....you could hear him and see him moving.

Don't confuse them with facts

[WhawhaWhat]

He was still alive dipshit....you could hear him and see him moving.

For like 3 secs. I guess you win on that one. :clap::rolleyes:

I guess they did wait to shoot him with the bean bags until after they told him to drop the knives and he responded with "I can't move."

[ThaVirus]

I wonder what the over/under on how many people police murder a month would be if all facts were brought to light?


These are the motherfuckers committing crimes.. And then they're the ones doing the investigations of the very crimes that they committed.

"Skilled daggersmen"? "Throwing the knife"? LMAO LMAO LMAO

[The Franchise]

The entire situation was bad all around. Could the cops have went a different route? Possibly....but they didn't. A man, who was obviously mentally ill, is now dead. The cops will have to pay for their actions. But you have to take in all of the factors of the event. I'm sure the cops were factoring in the environment they were in. Fuck...the cop with the camera was having problems climbing up the terrain.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

The entire situation was bad all around. Could the cops have went a different route? Possibly....but they didn't. A man, who was obviously mentally ill, is now dead. The cops will have to pay for their actions. But you have to take in all of the factors of the event. I'm sure the cops were factoring in the environment they were in. Fuck...the cop with the camera was having problems climbing up the terrain.

Doubt it

[TLO]

I know that it is not the same thing, but check this video out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9GmUcp0Mo


Again, I grew up with an Uncle that was a cop. Were he still alive, he would have kicked this Cop's ass up one side of the street and down the other. The most unprofessional example of police "professionalism" that I have ever seen. And he us still on the job. Gee, I can't imagine how UPS, Fed Ex and the mailman were ever able to do their jobs around these "mad dogs".

That was disgusting and has done a great job of putting me in a bad mood.

[Otter]

Shoot

Bean bag in the ass

Argue with corpse for not responding

Logical stages of escalation

[Gonzo]

Seriously though... "Booya?"
Very professional.

While I side with the officers 90% of the time, this amount of force was not warranted. The officers were far enough away and wearing protective gear. I don't care if it's Randy Johnson "throwing" those knives. It's not going to be fatal. This was chickenshit mob mentality.

[Tacoman]

Anyway you look at it knifes are for sure "real" threats. At my job we always consider the 21 foot rule. A suspect with a knife can close a 21 foot distance and stab you before an officer can draw from a holster and fire a round. Also knifes never run out of "bullets."

This doesn't seem relevant to me...

How many feet is the rule when you have 7+ cops with guns drawn, pointed at perp, with hammers cocked already? Probably more like 2.1 feet in my imagination. I think It is not an easy job being a cop, they really do provide a lot more than people like to give them credit for. That being said, this video seems like straight up murder to me.

What's the deal with the guy who keeps plugging him while he is motionless face down on the ground? Gotta make sure to finish the job, or what? In my mind there is not a rational reason to continue to shoot the guy at that point.

Also... People talking about how you have to make split second decisions and how that makes it more complicated, Isn't the whole point of the training to put you in a position to act intelligently in a situation like this? The whole situation could have been handled differently imo. The tazer supposedly doesn't work all the time. Ok, but couldn't they have at least TRIED IT before just rushing him with dogs and guns?

[Jimmya]

The booyah part did bother me. Just be professional.

[crazycoffey]

The booyah part did bother me. Just be professional.

Me too, but maybe it's one thing he says a lot anyway and it just came out. I agree it sounds bad too though. It's not nearly as stupid as drawing knives as armed police officers approach you.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Me too, but maybe it's one thing he says a lot anyway and it just came out. I agree it sounds bad too though. It's not nearly as stupid as drawing knives as armed police officers approach you.

:rolleyes:

[Fansy the Famous Bard]

muricah.

[Otter]

These are the mother****ers committing crimes.. And then they're the ones doing the investigations of the very crimes that they committed.

"Skilled daggersmen"? "Throwing the knife"? LMAO LMAO LMAO

Can someone point to me an instance where a knife was effectively thrown outside of a Rambo or cheesy 80s karate movie? Usually agree with you CC but not here.

Was the gut disorderly camping and minding his business too loudly? Open to more info but what's been presented is murder.

[jd1020]

Can someone point to me an instance where a knife was effectively thrown outside of a Rambo or cheesy 80s karate movie? Usually agree with you CC but not here.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/bx5ngpW3TsY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[TheUte]

I have some friends who are Police officers and We have talked about how much the risk their lives everyday.

But that is fucking pathetic. All of the Officers in that situation overreacted and at the very least need to lose their badges and possibly be charged criminally.

That was just awful, sickening.

[Pablo]

Just do whatever is asked of you by police officers.

Because they may kill you if you don't.

Good rule to follow with some of the whack jobs you'll encounter on the streets and in uniform.

[big_lebowski33]

This doesn't seem relevant to me...

How many feet is the rule when you have 7+ cops with guns drawn, pointed at perp, with hammers cocked already? Probably more like 2.1 feet in my imagination. I think It is not an easy job being a cop, they really do provide a lot more than people like to give them credit for. That being said, this video seems like straight up murder to me.

What's the deal with the guy who keeps plugging him while he is motionless face down on the ground? Gotta make sure to finish the job, or what? In my mind there is not a rational reason to continue to shoot the guy at that point.

Also... People talking about how you have to make split second decisions and how that makes it more complicated, Isn't the whole point of the training to put you in a position to act intelligently in a situation like this? The whole situation could have been handled differently imo. The tazer supposedly doesn't work all the time. Ok, but couldn't they have at least TRIED IT before just rushing him with dogs and guns?

It is irrelevant for this situation.

[Donger]

I ****ing hate cops. Think they are the law.

Huh? They ARE the law, at least the enforcers of it.

[Just Passin' By]

Huh? They ARE the law, at least the enforcers of it.

:shake:

One is not the same as the other.

[Donger]

:shake:

One is not the same as the other.

Tell me, if no one enforces the law, what is the point of having them?

[Just Passin' By]

Tell me, if no one enforces the law, what is the point of having them?

No, you tell me. If the cop is the law, why do we need legislatures and judges?

[Otter]

Tell me, if no one enforces the law, what is the point of having them?

You're a pretty logical guy Donger. Tell me, what would have been the outcome if they didn't shoot him? There was a canine there and what 3 or 4 officers with weapons drawn on him.

I'm an owner of a 90 pound German Sheppard. If that dog didn't respect me and look at me as a pack leader it would chew me head off without hesitation. They are killers, no respect but for what they know and teach them.

That guy never stood a chance from the get go. It wasn't OK to just shoot him. And yes, I do want to know more about what he was doing and why cops with guns drawn were there in the first place.

[Donger]

No, you tell me. If the cop is the law, why do we need legislatures and judges?

I was actually thinking of Pee Wee Herman when I wrote that:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/b5s9lMzMhAU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and why I then also wrote "at least the enforcers of it."

[Donger]

You're a pretty logical guy Donger. Tell me, what would have been the outcome if they didn't shoot him? There was a canine there and what 3 or 4 officers with weapons drawn on him.

I'm an owner of a 90 pound German Sheppard. If that dog didn't respect me and look at me as a pack leader it would chew me head off without hesitation.

That guy never stood a chance from the get go. It wasn't OK to just shoot him. And yes, I do want to know more about what he was doing and why cops with guns drawn were there in the first place.

I can think of many different outcomes. Sure, I suppose they could have waited another three hours until he feel asleep or something. I suppose the cops could have just left. I suppose the vagrant could have just complied with the lawful orders of the law enforcement officers.

[Johnny Vegas]

because you deserve to have ar-15's pointed at you for illegal camping.

[Otter]

I can think of many different outcomes. Sure, I suppose they could have waited another three hours until he feel asleep or something. I suppose the cops could have just left. I suppose the vagrant could have just complied with the lawful orders of the law enforcement officers.

No offense Donger and I know this is a worn out line but "just following orders" was worn out in Nuremberg. If you find that acceptable with the evidence presented to you we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Until we both can answer "what did he do to deserve that" I think you're talking shit.

Can't agree with ya here.

[Donger]

No offense Donger and I know this is a worn out line but "just following orders" was worn out in Nuremberg. If you find that acceptable with the evidence presented to you we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Until we both can answer "what did he do to deserve that" I think you're talking shit.

Can't agree with ya here.

I think it's an extremely unfortunate outcome. If this were an example of the cops showing up and immediately taking aggressive action, I would probably feel differently. They were there for three hours and the situation still wasn't resolved.

You don't think that they should have just left, right?

[Just Passin' By]

I think it's an extremely unfortunate outcome. If this were an example of the cops showing up and immediately taking aggressive action, I would probably feel differently. They were there for three hours and the situation still wasn't resolved.

You don't think that they should have just left, right?

So, how long should the wait be before we decide it's ok to just open fire?

[WhawhaWhat]

I think it's an extremely unfortunate outcome. If this were an example of the cops showing up and immediately taking aggressive action, I would probably feel differently. They were there for three hours and the situation still wasn't resolved.

You don't think that they should have just left, right?

What's the time limit before they can just kill the person instead?

[NinerDoug]

Un fucking believable. Looks like a fucking execution to me.

[Otter]

I think it's an extremely unfortunate outcome. If this were an example of the cops showing up and immediately taking aggressive action, I would probably feel differently. They were there for three hours and the situation still wasn't resolved.

You don't think that they should have just left, right?

Honestly I had no idea the police were there for 3 hours. Where did you attain that information from?

I'll be perfectly honest here; I'm looking thru this situation from my glasses. I camp and hike all the time and your kind of 'en guard (sp?) while out in the woods.

If there was a 3 hours standoff than I don't know the whole situation. I'm judging solely by what I saw on the video.

[Randallflagg]

Let me think about this for a minute. Okay. Failure to obey a lawful order from a cop will cause you to be shot. Got it. Just like the Cop in New Jersey who shot the lady who got out of her car after being told to "stay". Got it. Oh,forget the fact that the lady was 67 years old and hard of hearing. The "cop"? 25 years old.


I have a few words for you....Pepper Spray, Bean Bags, Tasers, Flash Bang, Non lethal wound and, lastly, sending the dog in.

I promise you, I haven't been pulled over in over 40 years. But if I am now, my hands will go on the dash and I will NOT move them. When the cop wants my license and registration, I will TALK him through each movement that I am about to make as I reach SLOWLY for my wallet.

I'll be damned if I become a "statistic". As much as I hate to admit it, I guess it really IS true. The more I hear folks talking about how we are "becoming communist Russia" the more it is starting to make sense.....

[Donger]

Honestly I had no idea the police were there for 3 hours. Where did you attain that information from?

I'll be perfectly honest here; I'm looking thru this situation from my glasses. I camp and hike all the time and your kind of 'en guard (sp?) while out in the woods.

If there was a 3 hours standoff than I don't know the whole situation. I'm judging solely by what I saw on the video.

It's in the link in the OP:

New Mexico - Critics of the Albuquerque Police Department are raising serious questions about the fatal shooting of a homeless camper.

38-year-old James Boyd argued with police for more three hours last Sunday about illegally camping in open space.

[The Franchise]

Just a question....but what happens if they taze the guy....he falls down and smacks his head on the rocks and dies?

[Otter]

It's in the link in the OP:

New Mexico - Critics of the Albuquerque Police Department are raising serious questions about the fatal shooting of a homeless camper.

38-year-old James Boyd argued with police for more three hours last Sunday about illegally camping in open space.

My bad for only watching the video. I apologize.

I still won't say that he couldn't have been taken down by an arm bar with these trained bad ass guys (LOL) or canine without being shot but it's a better understanding of what escalated.

Wanker

[Donger]

Just a question....but what happens if they taze the guy....he falls down and smacks his head on the rocks and dies?

Murder! Cold-blooded pigs!

Ad nauseam.

[Donger]

My bad for only watching the video. I apologize.

I still won't say that he couldn't have been taken down by an arm bar with these trained bad ass guys (LOL) or canine without being shot but it's a better understanding of what escalated.

Wanker

You are lucky that you apologized. I was about to flash bang you.

[Donger]

So, how long should the wait be before we decide it's ok to just open fire?

They didn't just open fire. After three hours of trying to get him to obey the law, they decided to use flash bangs and a dog. He went for a weapon. They then shot him.

[Donger]

What's the time limit before they can just kill the person instead?

I'm going to go ahead and guess three hours.

[ThaVirus]

"He could throw the knives" LMAO ROFL LMAO

Like this fucking homeless guy living on a hill in Cali is proficient in the most fictitious method of killing ever portrayed in film. You might as well mention the fucking ninja stars and katana in his backpack.

[Easy 6]

BOOYAH!

Like it was all just some kickass video game he was playing with a buddy.

[Easy 6]

I watched it last night, but don't remember exactly why this guy was being confronted for camping out on public land... is there a law against camping or being homeless?

[Just Passin' By]

They didn't just open fire. After three hours of trying to get him to obey the law, they decided to use flash bangs and a dog. He went for a weapon. They then shot him.

So, 3 hours is your number then.

And, yes, they did open fire.

[Donger]

I guess I don't hear "booyah!" I hear an officer make some noise after the shooting, but nothing legible.

[Donger]

So, 3 hours is your number then.

And, yes, they did open fire.

Sure, that works for me.

And I wrote "just" opened fire.

[Dayze]

they'll walk. end of story.


they always do.

[Pablo]

I guess I don't hear "booyah!" I hear an officer make some noise after the shooting, but nothing legible."Booyah" is American-English.

Something to the effect of "Hell Yes".

Thought I'd help you out.

[Jimmya]

Booyah.... As in "yea, I'm a bad ass"

[Randallflagg]

I watched it last night, but don't remember exactly why this guy was being confronted for camping out on public land... is there a law against camping or being homeless?


Well, apparently it is perfectly legal to live in a refrigerator box in the city but if you are camping on Public Lands, little Buffy might come into contact with the vagrant and it will upset her. Can't have that now can we?

Back when I was a teenager (in the 60s) and everyone was hitching - the Cops would occasionally stop you, ask for ID and see if you had any money. If you didn't have any cash (to prove you had a means of support) they would either run you in for a night or two or take you to the edge of town and tell you to get lost. Guess now they just shoot you and are done with it? How times change.......

[Donger]

"Booyah" is American-English.

Something to the effect of "Hell Yes".

Thought I'd help you out.

Yes, I knew that. But like I said, I didn't hear that word said legibly.

[Donger]

Well, apparently it is perfectly legal to live in a refrigerator box in the city but if you are camping on Public Lands, little Buffy might come into contact with the vagrant and it will upset her. Can't have that now can we?

Back when I was a teenager (in the 60s) and everyone was hitching - the Cops would occasionally stop you, ask for ID and see if you had any money. If you didn't have any cash (to prove you had a means of support) they would either run you in for a night or two or take you to the edge of town and tell you to get lost. Guess now they just shoot you and are done with it? How times change.......

In both those scenarios, I presume that you didn't argue with the cops for three hours....

[Rasputin]

Well, apparently it is perfectly legal to live in a refrigerator box in the city but if you are camping on Public Lands, little Buffy might come into contact with the vagrant and it will upset her. Can't have that now can we?

Back when I was a teenager (in the 60s) and everyone was hitching - the Cops would occasionally stop you, ask for ID and see if you had any money. If you didn't have any cash (to prove you had a means of support) they would either run you in for a night or two or take you to the edge of town and tell you to get lost. Guess now they just shoot you and are done with it? How times change.......



Ya that's what they did to John Rambo & look what happened. That makes all the sense for them to shoot him now & not deal with him any more.

[salame]

Booyah.... As in "yea, I'm a redneck"

fyp

[TimeForWasp]

In both those scenarios, I presume that you didn't argue with the cops for three hours....

I work 10 hour days. My first break is 3 hours. So they decide it is donut time and need to kill this guy so they don't miss their break.

[Ragged Robin]

That's a straight up execution. He only pulled out knives AFTER they did the flashbang or whatever and even THEN he turned and RAN before they gunned him down. ****ed up. However the BART incident was a lot worse and a couple other ones from the last couple years. Sorry, but fuck all cops.

[Easy 6]

Right or wrong, public lands camping or whatever.. suspect turned and ran, was shot ATLEAST twice in the back, said "please don't hurt me" while face down and shot up.

Was then shot again with beanbags twice in the back as he lay dying... mother ****er... I swear I hear stories like CC has told here and I've heard similar things personal cop friends about lesser incidents and how those incidents challenged them.

Cops have, in many ways, have an incredibly thankless and dangerous job that no one truly appreciates until they're right there in it... but closing ranks over some obvious bs like this is just another brick in the wall.

Defend your own for sure, there are STILL a bunch of great cops out there... but choose your battles wisely.

Don't be one of these guys goin BOOYAH... or you will lose our support forever.

[Randallflagg]

For like 3 secs. I guess you win on that one. :clap::rolleyes:

I guess they did wait to shoot him with the bean bags until after they told him to drop the knives and he responded with "I can't move."


I would LOVE to get a look at the autopsy (after viewing the video). It seems fairly obvious to me that the hero with the video camera shoots him twice in the back - perhaps in the spine. Of course when the guy hits the ground he can't move. His spine has most likely been severed and he is dying.

Real American Heroes. You know, I would like to believe that there are good cops out there, but I'm starting to have my doubts. God, I wish I didn't feel this way, but unfortunately I do.

[thabear04]

Don't know what video is worst this or when that cop killed that dog.

[crazycoffey]

I would LOVE to get a look at the autopsy (after viewing the video). It seems fairly obvious to me that the hero with the video camera shoots him twice in the back - perhaps in the spine. Of course when the guy hits the ground he can't move. His spine has most likely been severed and he is dying.

Real American Heroes. You know, I would like to believe that there are good cops out there, but I'm starting to have my doubts. God, I wish I didn't feel this way, but unfortunately I do.

I know, right? That poor innocent man only threatened the mean nazi cops because he has the right to make his own rules, and when the cops approached him he was fully in his right to pull those knives he was protecting his land! Oh wait, well fuck the popo anyway. And how could he have known they would actually shoot him? He only pulled out knives!

I bet if I pulled two kitchen knives on any unarmed CP member, they could disarm me with rainbows and paper airplanes. Because they'd know I only have about 1/16 of a chance to hit them with a thrown knife at ten feet and 1/4 of a chance to cause serious bodily injury with a slashing strike, if they were within 10 ft.

Hell, the cops get paid to take those odds. Who cares if jr grows up fatherless, dad should have just picked a different job. Besides, the dickhead cops probably gave the guy the fucking tent, out of boredom and bloodlust

[CoMoChief]

these cops need to be tried for murder.

[Randallflagg]

I know, right? That poor innocent man only threatened the mean nazi cops because he has the right to make his own rules, and when the cops approached him he was fully in his right to pull those knives he was protecting his land! Oh wait, well **** the popo anyway. And how could he have known they would actually shoot him? He only pulled out knives!

I bet if I pulled two kitchen knives on any unarmed CP member, they could disarm me with rainbows and paper airplanes. Because they'd know I only have about 1/16 of a chance to hit them with a thrown knife at ten feet and 1/4 of a chance to cause serious bodily injury with a slashing strike, if they were within 10 ft.

Hell, the cops get paid to take those odds. Who cares if jr grows up fatherless, dad should have just picked a different job. Besides, the dickhead cops probably gave the guy the ****ing tent, out of boredom and bloodlust

I would hardly call six well armed "Heroes" - unarmed. What would have made them "armed" a 105 Howitzer? Let's see. They had rifles, shotguns, pistols, tasers, pepper spray, flash bangs, plated vests, hell I guess the only thing left to have is bayonets, right?


This is Bullshit and you know it. You pull a knife on me - 10 feet away and you are turning AWAY from me - I WILL NOT shoot. OR, in the event I DO feel threatened - six cops holding weapons at the ready - I will shoot you in the leg. PERIOD. It is cowardice. Pure and simple. Rifles at the ready - what the hell were these heroes afraid of? Was the guy known to be a knife thrower in the Circus?

Don't let it alarm you - these guys will skate. You know it and I know it. Hell, they get to lay about on paid admin leave for a couple of months! Then they can return to duty and scope out their next victim. Shit guy! All is well in the "Law Enforcement world"!!

It's cool! They have the "law" on their side after all! Just like you said earlier - you don't get paid enough to take chances. Shoot the damned suspect. Sure, it's a lot of paperwork but damn!!! The RUSH!!!

Absolute Bullshit.

[crazycoffey]

I would hardly call six well armed "Heroes" - unarmed. What would have made them "armed" a 105 Howitzer? Let's see. They had rifles, shotguns, pistols, tasers, pepper spray, flash bangs, plated vests, hell I guess the only thing left to have is bayonets, right?


This is Bullshit and you know it. You pull a knife on me - 10 feet away and you are turning AWAY from me - I WILL NOT shoot. OR, in the event I DO feel threatened - six cops holding weapons at the ready - I will shoot you in the leg. PERIOD. It is cowardice. Pure and simple. Rifles at the ready - what the hell were these heroes afraid of? Was the guy known to be a knife thrower in the Circus?

Don't let it alarm you - these guys will skate. You know it and I know it. Hell, they get to lay about on paid admin leave for a couple of months! Then they can return to duty and scope out their next victim. Shit guy! All is well in the "Law Enforcement world"!!

It's cool! They have the "law" on their side after all! Just like you said earlier - you don't get paid enough to take chances. Shoot the damned suspect. Sure, it's a lot of paperwork but damn!!! The RUSH!!!

Absolute Bullshit.

You proved your point, I get it now, the cops were making all the bad decisions here. They probably gave ol dude the knives too. Hell, maybe the cops are vampires and are tired of drinking the synthetic blood.......

[Randallflagg]

You proved your point, I get it now, the cops were making all the bad decisions here. They probably gave ol dude the knives too. Hell, maybe the cops are vampires and are tired of drinking the synthetic blood.......

Give me a break here guy.

Six, supposedly well trained, armed men against one man (obviously out of his mind). YEAH the cops are the bad guys here.

Here is what I will promise you. If these events were turned around and we were in a combat theater with me as your Platoon Sergeant - every one of those men would be facing court martial right now.

It was a cowardly act by "heroes". Period.

[crazycoffey]

Give me a break here guy.

Six, supposedly well trained, armed men against one man (obviously out of his mind). YEAH the cops are the bad guys here.

Here is what I will promise you. If these events were turned around and we were in a combat theater with me as your Platoon Sergeant - every one of those men would be facing court martial right now.

It was a cowardly act by "heroes". Period.

I've been in theater too, brother. Don't get me started on the bs politics did to the rules of engagement. Swear to god the last trip I was told I couldn't shoot unless I was shot at first.

Maybe you didn't read the whole thread or all the "presented" "facts" we have available here, I don't know (I bet we don't know everything and I bet you weren't there). But only two officers fired lethal rounds. Both at the same time, triple taps like that's their training.

They took the shots right after the poor crazy guy took an aggressive stance with two knives, while the k9 officer was right in front of him, without his weapon drawn. Within a 10 foot "danger zone" often taught in police departments knife training curriculum.

The poor crazy guy made a sudden movement with those knives in a very intense position, did he trip? Did he turn? Was he about to throw the knives? Was he about to do something else?

We'll never know his intent in that second, but we know he pulled two knives on advancing officers after stating he would kill them if they advanced. That is at the very least showing some intent. Intent to be taken seriously.

And if you were my plt Sgt trying to court martial me or my squad for performing in such a manner, my first sgt would kick your ass at the suggestion.

[Randallflagg]

I've been in theater too, brother. Don't get me started on the bs politics did to the rules of engagement. Swear to god the last trip I was told I couldn't shoot unless I was shot at first.

Maybe you didn't read the whole thread or all the "presented" "facts" we have available here, I don't know (I bet we don't know everything and I bet you weren't there). But only two officers fired lethal rounds. Both at the same time, triple taps like that's their training.

They took the shots right after the poor crazy guy took an aggressive stance with two knives, while the k9 officer was right in front of him, without his weapon drawn. Within a 10 foot "danger zone" often taught in police departments knife training curriculum.

The poor crazy guy made a sudden movement with those knives in a very intense position, did he trip? Did he turn? Was he about to throw the knives? Was he about to do something else?

We'll never know his intent in that second, but we know he pulled two knives on advancing officers after stating he would kill them if they advanced. That is at the very least showing some intent. Intent to be taken seriously.

And if you were my plt Sgt trying to court martial me or my squad for performing in such a manner, my first sgt would kick your ass at the suggestion.

I have several friends who are retired First Sergeants and Sergeant Majors and I say Bullshit. I retired as a CWO. So your First Sergeant wouldn't do shit. The First Sergeants that I was in Viet Nam with would have INITIATED the damned paperwork and the Company Commander would have gladly forwarded it on.

Again, the hero who was filming the whole situation - the AR with the light - shot the guy twice in the back. I hope he sleeps well at night because he will get away with murder. I pray that every night when he closes his eyes he sees that man lying dead. I hope he wakes up screaming every night.

Now it's painfully obvious where you stand. And I have made my point as well. Just remember this young man - I can say that because I'm well into my sixties now. You "heroes" have a real bad PR situation in front of you. You are losing (or have lost) the support of most people. They are afraid of you. That may make those like you feel like big men. It shouldn't. BAD things happen when those who USED to look up to you turn away. I have never called on a police officer in my life. I don't need your "protection". never have and never will. Hell, I wouldn't trust the majority of any of you around me with a loaded weapon.

The old adage always holds true. You reap what you sow. I'm done with this conversation.

[Chief Pote]

Murderers

[Pasta Little Brioni]

That is murder plain and simple...WOW

[Strongside]

Coffey, I typically agree with most of your takes, but you're wrong about this one. Did that man break the law? Yes. Did he deserve to die for his actions? No.

[Bob Dole]

3 dozen officer shootings, 22 of them fatal, since 2010.

[CoMoChief]

I love how the guy was complying and picking up his shit and leaving when the flash bomb the guy and send their hyper active attack dog on him.....and then they shoot him when he freaks out.

These cops PURPOSELY escalated the situation to the point where they had the slightest window of opportunity to open fire (i dont find it justifiable but the APD does, they have a long history of using excessive force on their citizens, including tazering and pepper spraying women in the you know what).

You can tell these cops are former military. Which is why they acted like they did...they're secretly begging to kill someone. And they knew the guy was homeless and knew they had a much better opportunity to get away with it.

[LoneWolf]

Coffey, I typically agree with most of your takes, but you're wrong about this one. Did that man break the law? Yes. Did he deserve to die for his actions? No.

Did the man break the law? Yes
Did he comply with officers orders? No
Did he cause a 3 hour standoff? Yes
Did he verbally threaten officers? Yes
Did he brandish weapons? Yes
Did he drop his knives before being shot when ordered to by officers? No
Did he get exactly what he wanted? Yes

This is suicide by cop plain and simple. This man wanted to be shot by police and he made sure that is exactly what happened. All of this anger over a crazy man who obviously had issues with authority getting exactly what he wanted?

I have also enjoyed reading the posts from all of the macho men on here who claim they wouldn't shoot somebody who pulls a knife on them. Or who claim they are such expert marksmen that they would shoot the guy in the leg in such a high stress situation. Quite a few Rambo motherfuckers on this site.

[Ragged Robin]

I know, right? That poor innocent man only threatened the mean nazi cops because he has the right to make his own rules, and when the cops approached him he was fully in his right to pull those knives he was protecting his land! Oh wait, well **** the popo anyway. And how could he have known they would actually shoot him? He only pulled out knives!

I bet if I pulled two kitchen knives on any unarmed CP member, they could disarm me with rainbows and paper airplanes. Because they'd know I only have about 1/16 of a chance to hit them with a thrown knife at ten feet and 1/4 of a chance to cause serious bodily injury with a slashing strike, if they were within 10 ft.

Hell, the cops get paid to take those odds. Who cares if jr grows up fatherless, dad should have just picked a different job. Besides, the dickhead cops probably gave the guy the ****ing tent, out of boredom and bloodlust

You're clearly way biased or didn't even watch the video. He already AGREED to come down just BEFORE they set off the flash grenade, in which case he FREAKS OUT, pulls out a knife, and RUNS IN THE OTHER DIRECTION after which they gun him down with assault rifles. There is no justice there.

It's also hilarious that you guys bring up the "he didn't drop the knives" after he was you know.. paralyzed and shortly DEAD. It takes more than bean bags and a dog to force a dead man to drop something.

[Strongside]

Did the man break the law? Yes
Did he comply with officers orders? No
Did he cause a 3 hour standoff? Yes
Did he verbally threaten officers? Yes
Did he brandish weapons? Yes
Did he drop his knives before being shot when ordered to by officers? No
Did he get exactly what he wanted? Yes

This is suicide by cop plain and simple. This man wanted to be shot by police and he made sure that is exactly what happened. All of this anger over a crazy man who obviously had issues with authority getting exactly what he wanted?

I have also enjoyed reading the posts from all of the macho men on here who claim they wouldn't shoot somebody who pulls a knife on them. Or who claim they are such expert marksmen that they would shoot the guy in the leg in such a high stress situation. Quite a few Rambo mother****ers on this site.

Just because a guy wants the police to shoot him doesn't mean that they should. Taser the guy, subdue him, and get him some fucking help.

The lack of respect for human life in this world sickens me. We are so quick to judge and discard, but no one wants to help their fellow man.

The dude had a knife. So fucking what? I've seen ONE OFFICER subdue a guy that had pulled a knife on him outside a bar while I was college. This was several armed men with assault rifles and body armor. If you mean to tell me that they couldn't have used non-lethal tactics then you're daft.

[lcarus]

Did the man break the law? Yes
Did he comply with officers orders? No
Did he cause a 3 hour standoff? Yes
Did he verbally threaten officers? Yes
Did he brandish weapons? Yes
Did he drop his knives before being shot when ordered to by officers? No
Did he get exactly what he wanted? Yes

This is suicide by cop plain and simple. This man wanted to be shot by police and he made sure that is exactly what happened. All of this anger over a crazy man who obviously had issues with authority getting exactly what he wanted?

I have also enjoyed reading the posts from all of the macho men on here who claim they wouldn't shoot somebody who pulls a knife on them. Or who claim they are such expert marksmen that they would shoot the guy in the leg in such a high stress situation. Quite a few Rambo motherfuckers on this site.

I agree with a lot of this, but it just doesn't seem right that deadly force is necessary when you outnumber a man 5 to 1 or whatever. Plus you have an attack dog. All he had was that little 2 inch blade?

[Ragged Robin]

I agree with a lot of this, but it just doesn't seem right that deadly force is necessary when you outnumber a man 5 to 1 or whatever. Plus you have an attack dog. All he had was that little 2 inch blade?

The fact that he had a knife when he was gunned down is a null point. He only drew it after they set off the grenade despite him already agreeing to come down. Not to mention he's running in the other direction as they gun him down..

[Steron]

Did the man break the law? Yes
Did he comply with officers orders? No
Did he cause a 3 hour standoff? Yes
Did he verbally threaten officers? Yes
Did he brandish weapons? Yes
Did he drop his knives before being shot when ordered to by officers? No
Did he get exactly what he wanted? Yes

This is suicide by cop plain and simple. This man wanted to be shot by police and he made sure that is exactly what happened. All of this anger over a crazy man who obviously had issues with authority getting exactly what he wanted?

I have also enjoyed reading the posts from all of the macho men on here who claim they wouldn't shoot somebody who pulls a knife on them. Or who claim they are such expert marksmen that they would shoot the guy in the leg in such a high stress situation. Quite a few Rambo motherfuckers on this site.

Don't forget they all bench 225 pounds 35 times, run a 4.4 40, and have 15" dicks. CP is an amazing place.

[The Franchise]

I love how the guy was complying and picking up his shit and leaving when the flash bomb the guy and send their hyper active attack dog on him.....and then they shoot him when he freaks out.

These cops PURPOSELY escalated the situation to the point where they had the slightest window of opportunity to open fire (i dont find it justifiable but the APD does, they have a long history of using excessive force on their citizens, including tazering and pepper spraying women in the you know what).

You can tell these cops are former military. Which is why they acted like they did...they're secretly begging to kill someone. And they knew the guy was homeless and knew they had a much better opportunity to get away with it.

Go fuck yourself, dipshit.

[The Franchise]

The fact that he had a knife when he was gunned down is a null point. He only drew it after they set off the grenade despite him already agreeing to come down. Not to mention he's running in the other direction as they gun him down..

Funny....he wasn't running. He turned. Everyone who said he was running needs to get their eyes checked.

[Fishpicker]

Funny....he wasn't running. He turned. Everyone who said he was running needs to get their eyes checked.

true. it only looks like he was running away, he was actually being propelled by bullets.

[ThaVirus]

Yeah, he only slightly turned to conceal his true intentions.

HE WAS ABOUT TO THROW THE KNIVES.

[ThaVirus]

WITH ASTOUNDING ACCURACY.

[Strongside]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w206/ralfokinbot/knifethrow.gif

[verbaljitsu]

Reading some of the comments on this site generally makes me question humanity, but specifically in this thread it worries me that some of you may ever find your way onto a jury. It is no wonder that it is nearly impossible to hold police accountable in this country.

To the police defenders - What in your mind justifies the officers firing automatic weapons at this man, rather than using the force escalation continuum that their training calls for? There were obviously less-lethal options available...since you know, they used them on the guy after they killed him. Presumably there were tazers as well as the bean bag shotgun.

What justifies the officer shouting "Booyah!" after he unloads several rounds into this man's back? Is that not indicative of the officer's intent to do harm?

Why do you believe that the penalty for "having a knife in the desert and not immediately doing what the police tell you to" should be the death penalty, when if the man was arrested, he was likely to only be charged with a misdemeanor or a low-level felony?

When specifically should the officers have been in "reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm?"

Over the last ten years, more people have been killed by police officers in this country than all American soldiers who died in Iraq. We are militarizing our police at astounding rates. We send SWAT teams to solve every problem (and justify their existence and budget) and we get SWAT solutions. Every tool in the toolbox is a hammer now, and guess what cop defenders...you and everyone you love are the nails.

[Pablo]

They feared for their lives. Obviously shooting the guy in the back was the only resort they had. The "Boo-yah" at the end is just short-speak for "I'm certainly glad I'm alive and no longer feel like I am in imminent danger".

[The Franchise]

Reading some of the comments on this site generally makes me question humanity, but specifically in this thread it worries me that some of you may ever find your way onto a jury. It is no wonder that it is nearly impossible to hold police accountable in this country.

To the police defenders - What in your mind justifies the officers firing automatic weapons at this man, rather than using the force escalation continuum that their training calls for? There were obviously less-lethal options available...since you know, they used them on the guy after they killed him. Presumably there were tazers as well as the bean bag shotgun.

What justifies the officer shouting "Booyah!" after he unloads several rounds into this man's back? Is that not indicative of the officer's intent to do harm?

Why do you believe that the penalty for "having a knife in the desert and not immediately doing what the police tell you to" should be the death penalty, when if the man was arrested, he was likely to only be charged with a misdemeanor or a low-level felony?

When specifically should the officers have been in "reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm?"

Over the last ten years, more people have been killed by police officers in this country than all American soldiers who died in Iraq. We are militarizing our police at astounding rates. We send SWAT teams to solve every problem (and justify their existence and budget) and we get SWAT solutions. Every tool in the toolbox is a hammer now, and guess what cop defenders...you and everyone you love are the nails.

No one answered my question from before...


Say the cops tazed him....he fell down to the ground...hit his head and died. Then what?

[Fishpicker]

Yeah, he only slightly turned to conceal his true intentions.

HE WAS ABOUT TO THROW THE KNIVES.

thrown knives aren't a joke. even if a knife is weighted awkwardly and is not a knife made for throwing, it can still be thrown effectively. I can throw a large bowie knife (obviously not made for throwing) and get it to stick in a tree 7/10 times. all you have to do is throw it with no spin. go to youtube and look up no spin knife throwing tutorial. you can watch people throw pocket knives, kitchen knives, hunting knives, tac knives, even swords.

[The Franchise]

And I'm not defending the cops either.

[verbaljitsu]

They feared for their lives. Obviously shooting the guy in the back was the only resort they had. The "Boo-yah" at the end is just short-speak for "I'm certainly glad I'm alive and no longer feel like I am in imminent danger".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nt6kKhlX8vU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Pitt Gorilla]

thrown knives aren't a joke. even if a knife is weighted awkwardly and is not a knife made for throwing, it can still be thrown effectively. I can throw a large bowie knife (obviously not made for throwing) and get it to stick in a tree 7/10 times. all you have to do is throw it with no spin. go to youtube and look up no spin knife throwing tutorial. you can watch people throw pocket knives, kitchen knives, hunting knives, tac knives, even swords.No doubt. This guy was clearly more skilled in knife throwing than the cops would have been with a non-lethal shot.

[raybec 4]

I agree with a lot of this, but it just doesn't seem right that deadly force is necessary when you outnumber a man 5 to 1 or whatever. Plus you have an attack dog. All he had was that little 2 inch blade?

So who shoulda been the first one stabbed? Lowest rank? The dog?

[verbaljitsu]

No one answered my question from before...


Say the cops tazed him....he fell down to the ground...hit his head and died. Then what?

Man, what if aliens landed and intervened. Or what if there was an earthquake! Shit, better shoot him in the back.

The answer is everyone would say, "that is a tragedy, but understandable and a freak occurrence, is there some way we can do better in the future."

Tazers are not a perfect solution, but given the options of shooting a man full of holes in the back or tazering him, it seems like a pretty easy choice. Realistically, tazers should only be used when lethal force would be justified. But the point is that there is an entire continuum of force. They didn't try OC spray. They didn't try the bean bags, they didn't try the tazers. They got impatient and trigger happy and murdered a man out of some combination of convenience and cold-blood. Fuck them for that.

[The Franchise]

Man, what if aliens landed and intervened. Or what if there was an earthquake! Shit, better shoot him in the back.

The answer is everyone would say, "that is a tragedy, but understandable and a freak occurrence, is there some way we can do better in the future."

Tazers are not a perfect solution, but given the options of shooting a man full of holes in the back or tazering him, it seems like a pretty easy choice. Realistically, tazers should only be used when lethal force would be justified. But the point is that there is an entire continuum of force. They didn't try OC spray. They didn't try the bean bags, they didn't try the tazers. They got impatient and trigger happy and murdered a man out of some combination of convenience and cold-blood. Fuck them for that.

ROFL You're joking right? Everyone would be screaming that they didn't take him down another way. There is no winning scenario. And you're delusional if you think that people would be ok with him being tazed, falling and hitting his head.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nt6kKhlX8vU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This was exactly what I thought about when they all started screaming about the knife.

[ThaVirus]

thrown knives aren't a joke. even if a knife is weighted awkwardly and is not a knife made for throwing, it can still be thrown effectively. I can throw a large bowie knife (obviously not made for throwing) and get it to stick in a tree 7/10 times. all you have to do is throw it with no spin. go to youtube and look up no spin knife throwing tutorial. you can watch people throw pocket knives, kitchen knives, hunting knives, tac knives, even swords.


Yes. I'm sure this homeless man living out of a plastic bag was proficient at hitting the carotid artery from 15 feet out.. With his back turned.

[verbaljitsu]

ROFL You're joking right? Everyone would be screaming that they didn't take him down another way. There is no winning scenario. And you're delusional if you think that people would be ok with him being tazed, falling and hitting his head.

No, I'm not joking. They murdered a man with automatic weapons and 20% of the people in this thread think its great.

People have been killed by tazers before. Where there is uproar is when they are used on elderly people with heart conditions and mentally ill children who are unarmed.

This would not be a national news story. And regardless, you have picked a stupid hypothetical scenario that is extremely low probability. Juxtapose that probability with the odds that shooting a man in the back 10 times is almost guaranteed to kill him, and maybe you will have a better decision making calculus.

[TheUte]

You know this use to America and we use to have a right to question authority.

Apparently we just need to sit down shut-up and do what ever we are told.

Or get shot to death, sure seems what freedom is all about.

[verbaljitsu]

Your argument really is one of the dumber I've ever heard.

It boils down to "police should do whatever they want, because they will be criticized no matter what. This makes all criticism invalid and all police behavior valid." That is pre-school reasoning.

[Beef Supreme]

So who shoulda been the first one stabbed? Lowest rank? The dog?

The ****er who shot the stun grenade after the guy agreed to peacefully come along with them should have been stabbed first.

You know this use to America and we use to have a right to question authority.

Apparently we just need to sit down shut-up and do what ever we are told.

Or get shot to death, sure seems what freedom is all about.

No shit. And we have people lining up to defend the cops here. It's no wonder cops think they are above the law.

[The Franchise]

ROFL My argument? It was a question about a hypothetical situation that could have happened if you consider their surroundings and environment.

And show me the post that I made where I applauded the cops for shooting a man who had his back turned. I'll wait...

[ThaVirus]

Your argument really is one of the dumber I've ever heard.

It boils down to "police should do whatever they want, because they will be criticized no matter what. This makes all criticism invalid and all police behavior valid." That is pre-school reasoning.


I have to agree. It's pretty bad.

[crazycoffey]

ROFL My argument? It was a question about a hypothetical situation that could have happened if you consider their surroundings and environment.

And show me the post that I made where I applauded the cops for shooting a man who had his back turned. I'll wait...

I never even applauded him for the shots, I was trying to explain reasoning, training, possible line of thinking. If the cop is found to be in error, that's the duty of the lawyers and judges to decide. You know, when ALL the facts are able to be considered.

[Perineum Ripper]

I have kept up with this thread and didn't know what to post because I think the police handled it wrong..I know it's a bad situation because I have been in situations they were similar while on my deployments

With that being said I don't care if they talked for 3 hours..If they needed to talk to him for 6 hours to get him down then they needed to..it's there job..Serve and Protect

He was mentally ill and had a violent history..ok so now you know don't walk up to him and grab him like he is your buddy..talk to the man..have an officer in normal clothes talk to him so it's not as threatening to him..having 5 tactical dressed officers pointing rifles at you is going to get anybody nervous and or agitated

Ok he had a knife..If you can't talk him down have the 5 officers in tactical gear move to all sides of him and start closing the gap..have a couple stand below the steep hill in case he bails but use that terrain feature as something to push him towards..then as you close the gap have the dog ready the shotgun with bags ready and a teaser ready..As you close the gap and he decides he wants to charge hit him with the teaser and bags and if needed turn the dog on him

The situation was handled wrong..there was a threat because of his mental health issues his violent history and the knife but the the numbers the gear and the availability of non lethal means to subdue the man highly outweighed the threat..The situation should of and most certainly could of been handled better..The man should be alive

[Demonpenz]

some knife wielding weirdo won't be stabbing my wife or children tonight because of people on chiefs planets feelings. Thanks Cops....tax money going to good things.

[Otter]

some knife wielding weirdo won't be stabbing my wife or children tonight because of people on chiefs planets feelings. Thanks Cops....tax money going to good things.

So glad you feel a little safer going to bed now. Your wife and child would have been next.

[insert scary music and propaganda]

[philfree]

I have kept up with this thread and didn't know what to post because I think the police handled it wrong..I know it's a bad situation because I have been in situations they were similar while on my deployments

With that being said I don't care if they talked for 3 hours..If they needed to talk to him for 6 hours to get him down then they needed to..it's there job..Serve and Protect

He was mentally ill and had a violent history..ok so now you know don't walk up to him and grab him like he is your buddy..talk to the man..have an officer in normal clothes talk to him so it's not as threatening to him..having 5 tactical dressed officers pointing rifles at you is going to get anybody nervous and or agitated

Ok he had a knife..If you can't talk him down have the 5 officers in tactical gear move to all sides of him and start closing the gap..have a couple stand below the steep hill in case he bails but use that terrain feature as something to push him towards..then as you close the gap have the dog ready the shotgun with bags ready and a teaser ready..As you close the gap and he decides he wants to charge hit him with the teaser and bags and if needed turn the dog on him

The situation was handled wrong..there was a threat because of his mental health issues his violent history and the knife but the the numbers the gear and the availability of non lethal means to subdue the man highly outweighed the threat..The situation should of and most certainly could of been handled better..The man should be alive

No way, man. They could have been injured.

[ThaVirus]

Over the last ten years, more people have been killed by police officers in this country than all American soldiers who died in Iraq. We are militarizing our police at astounding rates. We send SWAT teams to solve every problem (and justify their existence and budget) and we get SWAT solutions. Every tool in the toolbox is a hammer now, and guess what cop defenders...you and everyone you love are the nails.


Dun dun duuuuuuuuunnnnnn!

[Fish]

No one answered my question from before...


Say the cops tazed him....he fell down to the ground...hit his head and died. Then what?

That danger is present for every situation in which a taser is used. They don't refrain from using a taser in other normal police situations because of that fear. You could use that "What if" on any taser use.

Regardless, they chose a method that carried much greater danger to the subject by using a flash bang/real bullets, than the danger of using a taser. They weren't exactly concerned for potential danger to the subject when they shot him in the back with lead bullets. Not seeing how your "What if" makes any difference here.

[LoneWolf]

3 dozen officer shootings, 22 of them fatal, since 2010.

Over the last ten years, more people have been killed by police officers in this country than all American soldiers who died in Iraq.

These 2 quotes seem to be in opposition of each other.

You know this use to America and we use to have a right to question authority.

He did question authority. For 3 fucking hours. Take your police state bullshit and shove it up your stupid ass.

[TheUte]

These 2 quotes seem to be in opposition of each other.



He did question authority. For 3 ****ing hours. Take your police state bullshit and shove it up your stupid ass.


Really. Boy you are super smart.

Sorry, I don't think a cop should be able to shoot you for being a pain in the ass.

So time limit is 3 hours and a cop gets to shot you.

I hope you have all your shit in order the next time you get pulled over.

Take too long to find an insurance card well too ****ing bad.

You are a dumb ****.

[LoneWolf]

Really. Boy you are super smart.

Sorry, I don't think a cop should be able to shoot you for being a pain in the ass.

So time limit is 3 hours and a cop gets to shot you.

I hope you have all your shit in order the next time you get pulled over.

Take too long to find an insurance card well too ****ing bad.

You are a dumb ****.

You are comparing a traffic stop with a guy verbally threatening officers, having a three hour standoff with officers, and wielding two knives at officers and I'm the dumb fuck? :rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe that the cops would have shot him if he didn't reach into his pockets and pull out knives? This guy wanted to be shot and in the end he got exactly what he wanted. I just wish he wouldn't have wasted the taxpayer's money and stabbed himself in the throat. Same result, fewer bleeding fucking vaginas worried about a crazy man with a death wish.

[lcarus]

There does seem to be a lot of truth regarding the militarization of local police. I've seen them here in Tulsa as well as OKC.

[TheUte]

You are comparing a traffic stop with a guy verbally threatening officers, having a three hour standoff with officers, and wielding two knives at officers and I'm the dumb ****? :rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe that the cops would have shot him if he didn't reach into his pockets and pull out knives? This guy wanted to be shot and in the end he got exactly what he wanted. I just wish he wouldn't have wasted the taxpayer's money and stabbed himself in the throat. Same result, fewer bleeding ****ing vaginas worried about a crazy man with a death wish.

Wow, dude what color is the sky in your world?

[Steron]

I can't figure out why they even used that flash grenade (or whatever it was). He was picking up his bag and coming down.

[Fish]

You are comparing a traffic stop with a guy verbally threatening officers, having a three hour standoff with officers, and wielding two knives at officers and I'm the dumb fuck? :rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe that the cops would have shot him if he didn't reach into his pockets and pull out knives? This guy wanted to be shot and in the end he got exactly what he wanted. I just wish he wouldn't have wasted the taxpayer's money and stabbed himself in the throat. Same result, fewer bleeding fucking vaginas worried about a crazy man with a death wish.

You keep repeating this. But the cops still have a responsibility to protect him even if he wanted to be shot. I have no pity for the dead dude considering the way he went about it. But you don't excuse the cops' misconduct one single bit just because the dumbass wanted to die.

[The Franchise]

I can't figure out why they even used that flash grenade (or whatever it was). He was picking up his bag and coming down.

Holy fucking assumption, Batman.

[Steron]

Holy fucking assumption, Batman.

No more of an assumption than saying he was going to throw the knives at the officers.

I only watched the video once. Much earlier in the day. Did he not agree to come down? I thought, and I might be wrong, he said he was coming down. No?

It seems to me firing that device escalated a situation that appeared to be coming to a peaceful end.

Once he pulls the knife(s), all bets are off. I mean I can see how 10 guys with automatic weapons and a K9 unit would be scared for their life by a crazy homeless camper who was disoriented by an explosion at his feet. They should have just emptied their mags into him.

Even more disgusting was shooting him 3 times with a beanbag gun and releasing the dog after they shot him in the back.

[TheUte]

Holy ****ing assumption, Batman.

So how big is the assumption that he committed suicide by cop.

Holy fucking super duper assumption, Batman.

Those Police Officers overacted period, that man should not be dead.

You can try to spin any way.

Cops have a no win job in most instances and they do the best they can most of the time.

They failed in this one.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

These 2 quotes seem to be in opposition of each other.


No. 22 fatal shootings by APD alone is a lot.

[The Franchise]

No more of an assumption than saying he was going to throw the knives at the officers.

I only watched the video once. Much earlier in the day. Did he not agree to come down? I thought, and I might be wrong, he said he was coming down. No?

It seems to me firing that device escalated a situation that appeared to be coming to a peaceful end.

Once he pulls the knife(s), all bets are off. I mean I can see how 10 guys with automatic weapons and a K9 unit would be scared for their life by a crazy homeless camper who was disoriented by an explosion at his feet. They should have just emptied their mags into him.

Even more disgusting was shooting him 3 times with a beanbag gun and releasing the dog after they shot him in the back.

He was picking up all of his shit and all I heard was "No reason to be scared....I'm not a murderer" and the cop says "Do it". I'm not defending the cops for their actions.

What this thread has become is anyone who doesn't scream "Murderers!" or "Police State!" at the top of their lungs is backing the cops and thinking that what they did was justified. It's not....I've been merely asking questions.

[Steron]

No, I agree.

I have no idea how I would react at the very moment if I was a Police Officer. Hopefully, I will never have to draw down on somebody to find out.

[listopencil]

This type of thing could be easily solved by training bears to guard our campgrounds.

[Fish]

This type of thing could be easily solved by training bears to guard our campgrounds.

I support the right to arm bears.

http://imageshack.com/a/img35/2764/8quz.png

[Bob Dole]

These 2 quotes seem to be in opposition of each other.



He did question authority. For 3 ****ing hours. Take your police state bullshit and shove it up your stupid ass.

Bob Dole's post was vague. Apologies.

That statistic is for Albuquerque PD alone.

[lcarus]

Bob Dole's post was vague. Apologies.

That statistic is for Albuquerque PD alone.

They have to shoot first and ask questions later, what with all that blue meth going around Albuquerque making everyone crazy.

[ThaVirus]

This guy wanted to be shot and in the end he got exactly what he wanted. I just wish he wouldn't have wasted the taxpayer's money and stabbed himself in the throat. Same result, fewer bleeding ****ing vaginas worried about a crazy man with a death wish.

The article said the guy has a history of mental health issues. Your assumption that the guy wanted to be shot is baseless.

[Fishpicker]

No. 22 fatal shootings by APD alone is a lot.

make it #23

http://krqe.com/2014/03/26/following-protest-apd-officers-shoot-another-man/

Man dies following overnight APD shooting

ALBUQUERQUE (KRQE) – Another fatal APD shooting took place Tuesday night, following a protest against the department just 10 days after the fatal foothills shooting that brought national attention and more scrutiny to the city’s police.

....

Video shows the man lower his hand before any shots are fired. Lots of people saw all of this happen, but they have different stories. Some witnesses believe the man was holding a phone in his hand, however, others say they saw a gun and believe the man didn’t fire, but only pointed it at his own head.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/M71w4lLo1ik" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

make it #23

http://krqe.com/2014/03/26/following-protest-apd-officers-shoot-another-man/

Man dies following overnight APD shooting

ALBUQUERQUE (KRQE) – Another fatal APD shooting took place Tuesday night, following a protest against the department just 10 days after the fatal foothills shooting that brought national attention and more scrutiny to the city’s police.

....

Video shows the man lower his hand before any shots are fired. Lots of people saw all of this happen, but they have different stories. Some witnesses believe the man was holding a phone in his hand, however, others say they saw a gun and believe the man didn’t fire, but only pointed it at his own head.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/M71w4lLo1ik" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Seems like a justified shooting, but if you have the chief lying about shots being fired, that's some serious shit.

[Pablo]

Only 23 over the last three years?

Sounds totally reasonable.

[crazycoffey]

Our tax dollars at work saving somebody that doesn't even pay taxes.


Little harsh there, man....

[lcarus]

I am usually not the most heart-heavy person when it comes to human life in general, but it just seems to me like in this modern era the police have so many non-lethal options to subdue an unarmed (gun) criminal. They outnumber him so much as it is, plus they have attack dog, bean bag guns, tazers, god knows what else. Seems like a pointless death, even if it is some homeless guy that's whacked out of his head and threatening policemen.

[Ragged Robin]

No more of an assumption than saying he was going to throw the knives at the officers.

I only watched the video once. Much earlier in the day. Did he not agree to come down? I thought, and I might be wrong, he said he was coming down. No?

It seems to me firing that device escalated a situation that appeared to be coming to a peaceful end.

Once he pulls the knife(s), all bets are off. I mean I can see how 10 guys with automatic weapons and a K9 unit would be scared for their life by a crazy homeless camper who was disoriented by an explosion at his feet. They should have just emptied their mags into him.

Even more disgusting was shooting him 3 times with a beanbag gun and releasing the dog after they shot him in the back.

He agrees to come down and picks up his stuff and step towards the police officers. The pigs then signal "do it" and set off the flash grenade, in which he totally freaks out AND THEN pulls out a knife as a result, before turning to run away. Then he's gunned down by assault rifles. The entire sequence was escalated and provoked by the pigs. They even had the K9+officer only about 8 feet in front of him when it happened, the dog could have easily taken him down after he turned and ran (he wouldn't even have done that in the first place if they didn't set off the grenade for no reason). No excuses. No justice. All cops are bastards.

true. it only looks like he was running away, he was actually being propelled by bullets.

ROFL

[Steron]

He agrees to come down and picks up his stuff and step towards the police officers. The pigs then signal "do it" and set off the flash grenade, in which he totally freaks out AND THEN pulls out a knife as a result, before turning to run away. Then he's gunned down by assault rifles. The entire sequence was escalated and provoked by the pigs. They even had the K9+officer only about 8 feet in front of him when it happened, the dog could have easily taken him down after he turned and ran (he wouldn't even have done that in the first place if they didn't set off the grenade for no reason). No excuses. No justice. All cops are bastards.



ROFL

Sounds like you might have had a not so good experience with law enforcement. Elaborate?

I don't agree with 'all cops are bastards'. I think, much like Catholic Priests, you only hear about the bad ones and then people paint all of them with a broad brush.

[Fairplay]

That looks like a shitty neighborhood the cops had many previous experiences there, if someone is waving around with a gun well you're an idiot.

[Jimmya]

Agreed.

[Dayze]

I support the right to arm bears.

http://imageshack.com/a/img35/2764/8quz.png

LMAO
I love this place.

[Easy 6]

He was picking up all of his shit and all I heard was "No reason to be scared....I'm not a murderer" and the cop says "Do it". I'm not defending the cops for their actions.

Yeah, that's what I watched as well... the guy started to calm down/get his head right and communicate peacefully with them.

It was that inexplicable flashbang grenade that threw the entire situation into a shitpuddle... there was simply no reason for that, the guy was calmly interacting and had only turned to grab his gear. This whole thing is pathetic, based on what I'm seeing online the citizens in that area are absolutely pissed.

This story isn't over, people will lose their jobs at the least.

[Tacoman]

You are comparing a traffic stop with a guy verbally threatening officers, having a three hour standoff with officers, and wielding two knives at officers and I'm the dumb ****? :rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe that the cops would have shot him if he didn't reach into his pockets and pull out knives? This guy wanted to be shot and in the end he got exactly what he wanted. I just wish he wouldn't have wasted the taxpayer's money and stabbed himself in the throat. Same result, fewer bleeding ****ing vaginas worried about a crazy man with a death wish.

No... He is comparing a traffic stop with a guy getting busted for camping. The comparison has a lot more objectivity than you realize. A traffic stop can and has escalated to this degree as we'll all across America. There are potentially a lot of background stories to this that we will never know about. What if the guy had been beaten by cops in the past for no other reason than being homeless. He could not only potentially feel like society doesn't give a shit about him, but combined with the possible histories we don't know about be perhaps irrationally (god What a nut thinking he can't trust the cops here right?) fearing for his livelihood. When cornered he felt he had to defend himself... Considering how many times he tried to tell the cops he wasn't a threat to them is it that far fetched to find this plausible?

[Tacoman]

You keep repeating this. But the cops still have a responsibility to protect him even if he wanted to be shot. I have no pity for the dead dude considering the way he went about it. But you don't excuse the cops' misconduct one single bit just because the dumbass wanted to die.

Truth

[Tacoman]

I typically side with police officers in these types of situations, they have a shitty job in that they have to put up with the most out of control people in our society, they don't get paid as much as they should considering they put their lives on the line every day, and they rarely get any credit from the general public for the services they provide. There are always a few bad apples that ruin their image by being power mongers, but that's not a cop trait that's a human trait, there are examples of that in every profession. Like it or not, we NEED the police to keep the order in our society.

All that being said, anyone who can watch this video and think that this was justified is beyond me. This is a homeless guy getting busted for camping for **** sakes, the fact that it ever escalated to a situation where human life was lost is mind boggling. The cops handled the whole situation very poorly, there is no excuse for this that would justify this death to me having now seen the video.

Why didn't they just taze the shit out of him and cuff him, what the hell is with the guy who keeps shooting him while he is face down and not moving? To anyone with this bullshit story about how he was some ****ing ninja who was going to hurl the knife 20 feet into someone throat or whatever, refer to the other video a few pages back where the guy gets blown to shit for simply putting his arms down after firing at cops and surrendering (that is a much more easy to defend the cops scenario than this by a long shot). If that guy had raised his arms to even try to throw a knife they would have gunned him down on the spot. The cops were not in danger here, they flat out ****ed this whole job up and someone lost their life over it. There should be consequences.

[Tacoman]

I can't post links, so someone who can should post the MSN link... It looks like things have dramatically escalated since the the two killings took place. People are rioting in the streets now demanding resignation of the authority figures in the APD.

[Tacoman]

This whole thing seems to have gone from bad to worse down in NM. Hopefully there are not any more lives lost regardless of which side is right or wrong.

[Eleazar]

I've seen people pull the taser needles out of their skin while getting a full charge. Then I watched him pull his nut sack open (like hulk Hogan pulling his shirt off before a bout) and fling one of his nuts on the wall because he didn't think I could make him leave his house. He was being arrested for stabbing his brother in the leg because it was his turn to **** their mother that night and the other brother said no.

:eek:

[planetdoc]

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: ALBUQUERQUE POLICE USE OF FORCE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/10/doj-albuquerque-policeuseofforceisunconstitutional.html)
http://krqe.com/2014/04/10/justice-dept-investigative-findings-on-apd/

Following a comprehensive investigation, today the Justice Department announced its findings that the Albuquerque Police Department (APD) has engaged in a pattern or practice of excessive force that violates the Constitution and federal law.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2014/April/14-crt-364.html

APD officers too frequently use deadly force against people who pose a minimal threat and in situations where the conduct of the officers heightens the danger and contributes to the need to use force

[WhawhaWhat]

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: ALBUQUERQUE POLICE USE OF FORCE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/10/doj-albuquerque-policeuseofforceisunconstitutional.html)
http://krqe.com/2014/04/10/justice-dept-investigative-findings-on-apd/



http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2014/April/14-crt-364.html

You mean police kill squads aren't legal?

[planetdoc]

3 Police Oversight Commission members quit (http://www.koat.com/news/3-police-oversight-commission-members-quit/25501790)

Just days after the U.S. Department of Justice announced the results of an investigation into the Albuquerque Police Department, three members of the Police Oversight Commission are quitting.

In their resignation letters to Mayor Richard Berry, Richard Shine, Jennifer Barela and Jonathan Siegel said they’re resigning because the civilian commission has no teeth.

“The city attorney’s office addressed the POC on April 10, 2014, and stated that we have no power to decide against the APD Chief or against the independent review officer’s findings regarding citizens’ complaints,” reads Siegel’s letter. “I cannot continue to pretend or deceive the members of our community into believing that our city has any real civilian oversight.”

[Jimmya]

Not looking good for the APD.