College athletes on their way to a union.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Wow RT <a href="https://twitter.com/CEmmaScout">@CEmmaScout</a>: <a href="https://twitter.com/CAPAssociation">@CAPAssociation</a> wins its case at the NLRB. College athletes on their way to a union.</p>&mdash; Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/statuses/448894832455737344">March 26, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[BlackHelicopters]

Slippery slope.

[WhiteWhale]

Slippery slope.

logical fallacy

[lawrenceRaider]

So aren't college athletics already your basic labor conglomerate? The revenue sports, football mostly, basketball depending on school, basically fund the other sports that few people follow or pay to watch. Do these people realize they are about to further destroy college sports outside of football/basketball? Maybe baseball sticks around?

How will this work with Title IX?

[Discuss Thrower]

Please don't tell me a player can sue a college for expelling them from school for unionizing.

[RealSNR]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/P2lSDetRrNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Garcia Bronco]

So aren't college athletics already your basic labor conglomerate? The revenue sports, football mostly, basketball depending on school, basically fund the other sports that few people follow or pay to watch. Do these people realize they are about to further destroy college sports outside of football/basketball? Maybe baseball sticks around?

How will this work with Title IX?

who knows? If they unionize as employees of the school, it becomes unclear how they would be students or how title 9 would apply at that point.

[Xanathol]

More proof that all it takes is a few dumbasses to ruin something good for everyone. Notice too that it's always the teams / players that really don't matter that do the complaining... I mean, Northwestern? Really?!?

[ghak99]

They're discussing this on Fox right now.

This could get crazy.

[alnorth]

who knows? If they unionize as employees of the school, it becomes unclear how they would be students or how title 9 would apply at that point.

You can be both a student and an employee, lots of students work part-time at a school.

[alnorth]

More proof that all it takes is a few dumbasses to ruin something good for everyone. Notice too that it's always the teams / players that really don't matter that do the complaining... I mean, Northwestern? Really?!?

Well, they are probably correct. If we want college athletes to toil away as low-paid serfs, then we have several federal labor laws we need to change.

[Mr. Laz]

Part of me hopes the entire thing dies.

I hope the students/players trying to unionize end up with nothing. I hope it cost them any career they might have had.

[ThatRaceCardGuy]

Good for them.

[htismaqe]

You can be both a student and an employee, lots of students work part-time at a school.

I would imagine at some point though, that would cause Title IX to die.

[ThatRaceCardGuy]

Kids being pimped for billions...good for them.

[alnorth]

I would imagine at some point though, that would cause Title IX to die.

Not really. I'm guessing Title IX will limit how much the football players can get, by forcing them to share the wealth. Labor laws do not necessarily conflict with title IX, we'll probably just reach a situation where the football and basketball players are told that they can't carve their sports out, that they also have to let all the other athletes into their union.

It would still be a win for them, even if you have to pay all the women and olympic athletes an equal share, its still a lot more than what they get now.

[htismaqe]

Not really. I'm guessing Title IX will limit how much the football players can get, by forcing them to share the wealth. Labor laws do not necessarily conflict with title IX, we'll probably just reach a situation where the football and basketball players are told that they can't carve their sports out, that they also have to let all the other athletes into their union.

It would still be a win for them, even if you have to pay all the women and olympic athletes an equal share, its still a lot more than what they get now.

I don't believe colleges are required by law to provide equal access to part-time employment. If what you're saying is true, it's potentially going to impact all work study programs, not just athletics.

[Dragonocho]

Welp. Finally might kill the NCAA as we know it in favor of a professional college league. Maybe someone has experience running a professional football league and will step in to help.

[Discuss Thrower]

Not really. I'm guessing Title IX will limit how much the football players can get, by forcing them to share the wealth. Labor laws do not necessarily conflict with title IX, we'll probably just reach a situation where the football and basketball players are told that they can't carve their sports out, that they also have to let all the other athletes into their union.

It would still be a win for them, even if you have to pay all the women and olympic athletes an equal share, its still a lot more than what they get now.

So would there be a scenario when a D-I FBS school axes all men's sports but football and basketball just to keep the ability to offer 85 scholarships?

[alnorth]

In case anyone is wondering, this still has a long way to go. Northwestern will appeal to the national NLRB. They will probably lose there, then they'll sue the NLRB, and slowly appeal that all the way up to the SCOTUS.

4-5 years later if they lose everywhere, then things will get interesting.

[alnorth]

I don't believe colleges are required by law to provide equal access to part-time employment. If what you're saying is true, it's potentially going to impact all work study programs, not just athletics.

Title IX doesn't care if you call it wages, meal money, a stipend, or a scholarship. They can't pay football players more than everyone else, and labor laws will be fine with that.

If college players are employees who can unionize, what would likely happen is the school will say "look folks, we can only afford to pay you all $X. Any higher than that, and we'll just cancel sports and you can all strike. Also, Title IX requires that you get the same, so your pay is X divided by the number of athletes."

[alnorth]

So would there be a scenario when a D-I FBS school axes all men's sports but football and basketball just to keep the ability to offer 85 scholarships?

nope. They would have to offer 85 women's scholarships as well. Whether or not a student is an employee is not relevant to title ix, they only care about athletic opportunity, and that everyone gets the same compensation, however you define compensation.

[Discuss Thrower]

Title IX doesn't care if you call it wages, meal money, a stipend, or a scholarship. They can't pay football players more than everyone else, and labor laws will be fine with that.

If college players are employees who can unionize, what would likely happen is the school will say "look folks, we can only afford to pay you all $X. Any higher than that, and we'll just cancel sports and you can all strike. Also, Title IX requires that you get the same, so your pay is X divided by the number of athletes."

Let me restate what I asked earlier: if an athlete unionizes, can he seek legal retribution once said institution decides to expel him?

[alnorth]

Let me restate what I asked earlier: if an athlete unionizes, can he seek legal retribution once said institution decides to expel him?

Yes.

"If anyone tries to start a union, we'll fire your ass" is something that employers thought of a long, long time ago. There are very stiff penalties for that.

[Bowser]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Bowser]

Kids being pimped for billions...good for them.

This IS valid, but the one thing that always seems to get overlooked is that the kid is getting a free "education" from the school he/she is at. No, they won't be set up for life, but it is something to not sneeze at.

[planetdoc]

good. Now whatever happens they can at least say they were a represented stakeholder.

[BlackHelicopters]

Welp. Finally might kill the NCAA as we know it in favor of a professional college league. Maybe someone has experience running a professional football league and will step in to help.

Membership in the NCAA is voluntary. A school could break away if they wanted. Addicted to money that NCAA and associated contracts bring.

[lawrenceRaider]

Well, they are probably correct. If we want college athletes to toil away as low-paid serfs, then we have several federal labor laws we need to change.

Right, they are serfs. Serfs had no chance for improvement. College athletes are much more equivalent to apprentices, and are learning valuable life lessons, plus get personalized training in their sport. Go price out the cost of a full time personal trainer and get back to us. Add in room/board/tuition/books, and a future that has considerably more earning potential simply from getting a degree.

[Mr. Laz]

Well, they are probably correct. If we want college athletes to toil away as low-paid serfs, then we have several federal labor laws we need to change.
They get a free education worth 100k+ it's their own fault if they don't take advantage of it. They get to party,bang hot college chick and be treated like campus heroes while getting to play a game.

They also get a free internship/audition for the career lotto where they can make more money in 1 year than most people do in a lifetime.

serfs my ass

[WhiteWhale]

Welp. Finally might kill the NCAA as we know it in favor of a professional college league. Maybe someone has experience running a professional football league and will step in to help.

Let's just stop pretending college ball is amateur sport.

[Discuss Thrower]

Yes.

"If anyone tries to start a union, we'll fire your ass" is something that employers thought of a long, long time ago. There are very stiff penalties for that.

So receiving a scholarship => classifies you as an employee?

[alnorth]

They get a free education worth 100k+ it's their own fault if they don't take advantage of it. They get to party,bang hot college chick and be treated like campus heroes while getting to play a game.

They also get a free internship/audition for the career lotto where they can make more money in 1 year than most people do in a lifetime.

serfs my ass

The value of that education is less than the fair market value of their labor.

If it isn't, the school can easily say "we're not paying" and cancel sports.

Do you REALLY think they are going to do that? A few might, but not many.

[Dragonocho]

Seems to me that this path could lead initially to a tiered semi-professional football system that to maximize profit will separate from the NCAA and from the colleges as the players and league chase top dollar. From there some would thrive, some would survive and some won't last long at all.
Colleges do have the benefit of existing infrastructure and branding at the cost of sharing the potential wealth available to players.
Semi-Pro leagues would have the benefit of maximizing the football player's return on his value. In my experience, this is generally the direction people go.
Ultimately if this happened then players, instead of being Student-Athletes receiving an education and playing for a storied program, would be professional football players legally unaffiliated with the university. Why would they stay and concede top $ to other sports?

[blaise]

The value of that education is less than the fair market value of their labor.

If it isn't, the school can easily say "we're not paying" and cancel sports.

Do you REALLY think they are going to do that? A few might, but not many.

I don't think that's true at every school. Not every school is making millions on their football or basketball program.

[scho63]

The NLRB is a pro-union entity that won't rule against the workers and has only gotten more progressive since the Black King was elected.

This is nonsense-what until they are locked out and try to strike! LOL

[blaise]

I think the schools will ultimately still have way more leverage.

[alnorth]

So receiving a scholarship => classifies you as an employee?

Nope. Most scholarships are just free money

Having a set hours per week to work for the university, a work place to report to on time, a boss who you have to obey, and the fact that keeping your scholarship often depends on your performance, does make you an employee.

[alnorth]

I don't think that's true at every school. Not every school is making millions on their football or basketball program.

And at those schools, the wage is going to be less. The best employers who pay the most also can be picky and hire only the best employees in the real world.

[Garcia Bronco]

You can be both a student and an employee, lots of students work part-time at a school.

Right ...but your Union status and your admission status are exclusive to each other at this time.

Also...I think that'll they'll have to be students to play there...and then why would you give them a scholarship? They'll just end-up paying that money back to the University. And Athletes can cost way more to house than a normal student.

[alnorth]

By the way, we can easily pass a law carving out a "college athlete exception", declaring that student athletes are not employees and the schools are under no obligation to pay them.

That is something the congress CAN do, and I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I'm not sure how I feel about passing that kind of law.

But this silly fiction we currently live in where we all pretend that college athletes are not employees and that their scholarship is enough is crap. If we want college athletes to not be paid, then we need to explicitly make that clear in our laws.

[BossChief]

Not a good idea IMO.

I know people want to point to kids not getting paid for playing for a school that is cashing huge checks for their performances...but that's bullshit.

Players are paid in scholarships and lots of other ways not shown in their bank accounts.

This is gonna be a game changer.

[alnorth]

Right ...but your Union status and your admission status are exclusive to each other at this time.

Also...I think that'll they'll have to be students to play there...and then why would you give them a scholarship? They'll just end-up paying that money back to the University. And Athletes can cost way more to house than a normal student.

If your eligibility to work requires that you be a student in good standing in the school, thats fine. The union will probably require that student-athletes be expelled (and therefore fired) only for cause and have some kind of appeal process for that. Students at most schools can appeal expulsions now anyway.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not a good idea IMO.

I know people want to point to kids not getting paid for playing for a school that is cashing huge checks for their performances...but that's bullshit.

Players are paid in scholarships and lots of other ways not shown in their bank accounts.

This is gonna be a game changer.

yeah...and as ollie said...it's a way down th road and then it gets interesting after all the procedures have run their course.

[Garcia Bronco]

Another thing that sticks out too...is oh....you have an income now....we're gonna need you to pay income tax.

[blaise]

By the way, we can easily pass a law carving out a "college athlete exception", declaring that student athletes are not employees and the schools are under no obligation to pay them.

That is something the congress CAN do, and I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I'm not sure how I feel about passing that kind of law.

But this silly fiction we currently live in where we all pretend that college athletes are not employees and that their scholarship is enough is crap. If we want college athletes to not be paid, then we need to explicitly make that clear in our laws.


I don't think the idea that a scholarship is enough is crap. Seems to me there's stories every day about kids being saddled with 20 years of crippling student loan debt.
If athletes can get money, good for them. But the idea that they're receiving a pittance is laughable.

[alnorth]

Another thing that sticks out too...is oh....you have an income now....we're gonna need you to pay income tax.

yep.

Same as students who work part time for a school in the library or cafeteria, they also file taxes.

[RealSNR]

At the very least, I'm getting sick of people who bitch about pros getting paid too much as a reason why college athletics are a better product.

The NCAA has demonstrated that it can be every bit as corrupt and greedy as the NFL, NBA, or MLB. Time and time again.

Let's at least remove the veil and show people that the two products MIGHT have been different in the 1970s or 1980s, but not anymore.

[RealSNR]

"So does this include the gymnastics and karate teams?"

If they represent the university as an official team and not just a student-run club, then yes.

The universities won't be paying for the ultimate frisbee teams.

[vailpass]

"So does this include the gymnastics and karate teams?"

If they represent the university as an official team and not just a student-run club, then yes.

The universities won't be paying for the ultimate frisbee teams.

Man I loved ultimate friz...

[Chiefs Pantalones]

@GottliebShow: There are exactly zero College football players who spend 60 hours a week on football, unless you count video games

[alnorth]

If I had to guess, presuming they lose in court, I'd say its at least 50/50 that congress might step in and reverse this.

[J Diddy]

By the way, we can easily pass a law carving out a "college athlete exception", declaring that student athletes are not employees and the schools are under no obligation to pay them.

That is something the congress CAN do, and I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I'm not sure how I feel about passing that kind of law.

But this silly fiction we currently live in where we all pretend that college athletes are not employees and that their scholarship is enough is crap. If we want college athletes to not be paid, then we need to explicitly make that clear in our laws.

I find your last paragraph extremely debatable. They are not only getting a free education worth thousands and thousands of dollars to schools that the majority of them wouldn't get into if they didn't play sports but they're also getting a lifetime of that benefit. Forty years of higher wages due to a degree from a top notch university for playing sports is a huge deal.

[RealSNR]

I also don't see why the NCAA can't institute wage controls to ensure fair competition in recruiting.

If a player is deciding between staying close to home at the University of North Dakota but also has an offer from the University of Alabama, the money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The NCAA can take measures to regulate that.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I don't think the idea that a scholarship is enough is crap. Seems to me there's stories every day about kids being saddled with 20 years of crippling student loan debt.
If athletes can get money, good for them. But the idea that they're receiving a pittance is laughable.

I agree. And that scholarship should now be considered income and thereofre be taxed. How does Obamacare work in this situation:D

[Gravedigger]

Bad precedent imo. It flips College Football on its end on how to build a team, allows a further ability to pay off and corrupt to sway unions and players towards a contract negotiation, etc. I don't see the benefit of allowing 18 year old kids (Yes, they're kids) the power to mass strike leading to a drop in quality of sport, scabs replacing the players, just overall ugly precedent in so many ways bringing out bad decisions all for the sake of money. It always corrupts absolutely.

[vailpass]

I also don't see why the NCAA can't institute wage controls to ensure fair competition in recruiting.

If a player is deciding between staying close to home at the University of North Dakota but also has an offer from the University of Alabama, the money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The NCAA can take measures to regulate that.

Probably true but I shudder at the thought of more nc2a regulation...

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't think the idea that a scholarship is enough is crap. Seems to me there's stories every day about kids being saddled with 20 years of crippling student loan debt.
If athletes can get money, good for them. But the idea that they're receiving a pittance is laughable.

A scholarship that...at least at Virginia Tech ...weight room, books, classes, room, food(as in a dining hall only for athletes attached to their dorm), and a monthly stipend.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I also don't see why the NCAA can't institute wage controls to ensure fair competition in recruiting.

If a player is deciding between staying close to home at the University of North Dakota but also has an offer from the University of Alabama, the money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The NCAA can take measures to regulate that.

If the scholarship is considered compensation, it is already lop-sided.
Education at the University of Michigan has got to be a lot higher than Idaho State

[Discuss Thrower]

I think the only way this works out positively is if scholarships for Div 1 football is lowered to 50 or 60.. spreads the athletes to other schools when a lot of them might be content with being depth at Alabama or Oregon.

But my guess is schools would opt to kill every men's sport but football and probably take a handful of scholarships from basketball just to fulfill Title IX and have 85 guys on football scholies.

[blaise]

I think maybe some of the actual benefits will be that kids might have a grievance process if their scholarship is ripped for some reason. Or maybe if they think they're being disciplined unfairly.
Pay aside I would like it if the kids had more say NCAA-wide regardling eligibility, suspensions, transfers, etc.

[alnorth]

I also don't see why the NCAA can't institute wage controls to ensure fair competition in recruiting.

If a player is deciding between staying close to home at the University of North Dakota but also has an offer from the University of Alabama, the money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The NCAA can take measures to regulate that.

The NCAA could, but they won't, because then the power conferences would leave the NCAA and form their own club.

[LoneWolf]

The value of that education is less than the fair market value of their labor.

If it isn't, the school can easily say "we're not paying" and cancel sports.

Do you REALLY think they are going to do that? A few might, but not many.

The value of the education is less than the fair market value of their labor? :rolleyes:

How much does someone earn over their entire lifetime if they get a college degree and find a job working in their chosen field?

I hope this goes through and these athletes are now treated like employees. Do away with their scholarships and pay them a salary. They will be required to pay for all of their expenses. All of the perks they recieve now will no longer be provided for free.

Doing bad in a class and need help--Hire your own tutor.
Enjoy paying taxes on the salary you are paid.
Tuition and books are now your responsibility.
Room and board is now your responsibility.
Food is now your responsibility.
If I'm the school, I also put in place a stict attendance policy. If you feel like you don't need to show up for class, guess what as your employer I can fire you for poor job performance.
Get a DUI--Fuck you you're fired.

[alnorth]

I find your last paragraph extremely debatable. They are not only getting a free education worth thousands and thousands of dollars to schools that the majority of them wouldn't get into if they didn't play sports but they're also getting a lifetime of that benefit. Forty years of higher wages due to a degree from a top notch university for playing sports is a huge deal.

When the athletes for a power school provide over a hundred million dollars of value to that school, you can't just automatically point to the scholarship and declare it to be enough, that is not fair. Most of the time, the athlete can probably take out loans anyway, so we're just talking about the present value of those loans, not the value of the education.

[BlackHelicopters]

The NCAA could, but they won't, because then the power conferences would leave the NCAA and form their own club.

This needs to happen. Fuck the NCAA

[alnorth]

The value of the education is less than the fair market value of their labor? :rolleyes:

If they want to go to school, they can, they just have to take out loans like the rest of us.

You can't throw the value of the education on the scale, thats available to them whether they are an athlete or not. The only thing you have on the athlete's side of the scale is the cost of the loans. On a typical power school's side of the scale you have a huge amount of money, and you are calling it even.

[LoneWolf]

When the athletes for a power school provide over a hundred million dollars of value to that school, you can't just automatically point to the scholarship and declare it to be enough, that is not fair. Most of the time, the athlete can probably take out loans anyway, so we're just talking about the present value of those loans, not the value of the education.

You can't just dismiss the free education aspect of all of this. If used properly, that is something that will earn you money every year for the rest of your life.

[Mr. Laz]

This needs to happen. Fuck the NCAA

as soon as that happens then you can forget about NCAA tourney as shit


once the governing body goes then the big schools won't give a shit about the small ones. The smalls schools might as well get rid of their athletic dept. all together.

[BlackHelicopters]

Do we really need another professional football league?

[Discuss Thrower]

as soon as that happens then you can forget about NCAA tourney as shit


once the governing body goes then the big schools won't give a shit about the small ones. The smalls schools might as well get rid of their athletic dept. all together.

That or the NAIA is about to be tripled in size.

[mrroandrro]

Game changer no doubt. The successful programs will be the ones with the deepest pockets. Imagine if Peyton Manning decided not to go to the NFL cuz Tennessee offered him more to stay. Wonder if there will be a cap or ceiling as to what they can be paid? The bidding wars for high school athletes could be ridiculous, with the top players doing the LeBron on ESPN. This is gonna be crazy.

[alnorth]

You can't just dismiss the free education aspect of all of this. If used properly, that is something that will earn you money every year for the rest of your life.

I can, because the school is not providing an education to someone who is unable to get an education. They are providing money, in the form of a scholarship. If you want to go to school, you can go to school, you may have to fill out a FAFSA and work part-time.

Even in those situations where someone gets into Stanford who otherwise would not have been admitted, they still would have bneen able to go to a State U, and we're now talking about the marginal difference between those two type of schools, for a few athletes.

[philfree]

So do they get workers comp if they sprain their ankle?

[greatgooglymoogly]

It would be interesting to see where top recruits go. Would universities in right to work states be at a disadvantage?

[alnorth]

That or the NAIA is about to be tripled in size.

or pass a law.

If we can't, then the people through their representatives will have signed off on another pro league.

[BlackHelicopters]

as soon as that happens then you can forget about NCAA tourney as shit


once the governing body goes then the big schools won't give a shit about the small ones. The smalls schools might as well get rid of their athletic dept. all together.

The NCAA is an outdated and bloated beauracracy

[blaise]

Do we really need another professional football league?

If they end up getting paid it won't be that much. Overall the students need the schools more than the schools need the kids, in my opinion.
If schools started cancelling scholarships a lot of these kids would be saying no thanks pretty quick.
But from what I've read the students that started this have been saying it's not about money. They want representation regarding practice time, travel, etc.
And I can understand that.

[Discuss Thrower]

or pass a law.

If we can't, then the people through their representatives will have signed off on another pro league.

Meh. More than half of America voted in people who decided that Americans have no right to not purchase a product if they so desired.

[alnorth]

If they end up getting paid it won't be that much. Overall the students need the schools more than the schools need the kids, in my opinion.
If schools started cancelling scholarships a lot of these kids would be saying no thanks pretty quick.
But from what I've read the students that started this have been saying it's not about money. They want representation regarding practice time, travel, etc.
And I can understand that.

Yeah, their demands right now are pretty modest. I think most of us are looking way down the road when the students look around and go "hey this $7,000 stipend and free medical is nice, but I think we're worth more".

Unions and management always reach an equilibrium where the company is not willing to pay more, and once schools start competing against each other I think the leverage will come down.

[Valiant]

Title IX doesn't care if you call it wages, meal money, a stipend, or a scholarship. They can't pay football players more than everyone else, and labor laws will be fine with that.

If college players are employees who can unionize, what would likely happen is the school will say "look folks, we can only afford to pay you all $X. Any higher than that, and we'll just cancel sports and you can all strike. Also, Title IX requires that you get the same, so your pay is X divided by the number of athletes."

Players will sue for money made on their likeness and jerseys for the popular sports outside of the standard equal pay athletes get. Womens sports do not generate money simple as that. This will be a clusterfuck beyond all clusterfucks. Shit will take decades.

I can see why he says IX will have to change or go away. Each college is basically a different company. Each sport should be a different department/branch. Different pay scales as long as their is a minimum. Of course I think they should do away with athletic scholarships then also.

The landscape will be changing..

[BlackHelicopters]

Players will sue for money made on their likeness and jerseys for the popular sports outside of the standard equal pay athletes get. Womens sports do not generate money simple as that. This will be a clusterfuck beyond all clusterfucks. Shit will take decades.

I can see why he says IX will have to change or go away. Each college is basically a different company. Each sport should be a different department/branch. Different pay scales as long as their is a minimum. Of course I think they should do away with athletic scholarships then also.

The landscape will be changing..


If it signals the. End. Of the NCAA, then I am all for it.

[Valiant]

You can't just dismiss the free education aspect of all of this. If used properly, that is something that will earn you money every year for the rest of your life.

Yes you can. A free education means jack shit to most of the big sports players(football, basketball, maybe baseball).. They are there to get drafted or go pro.

Education means crap, money on the other hand... More money to go with what they are getting under the table..

[Bob Dole]

In case it has not yet been pointed out, this ruling only applies to private schools.

[alnorth]

Players will sue for money made on their likeness and jerseys for the popular sports outside of the standard equal pay athletes get. Womens sports do not generate money simple as that. This will be a cluster**** beyond all cluster****s. Shit will take decades.

Thats fine. There would probably be only a couple athletes in all of NCAA sports at any time who are going to be hired as pitchmen.

Outside of commercials, everyone is going to fall under some general likeness agreement with EA, and that money will be split thousands of ways.

[alnorth]

In case it has not yet been pointed out, this ruling only applies to private schools.

Well, right now it only applies to the Northwestern football team. (and if they negotiated something, Northwestern would then have to give something similar to their female athletes)

Other private schools, and universities whose states allow public employees to unionize would probably be able to cite it, though.

[Mosbonian]

Well, right now it only applies to the Northwestern football team. (and if they negotiated something, Northwestern would then have to give something similar to their female athletes)

Other private schools, and universities whose states allow public employees to unionize would probably be able to cite it, though.

The NLRB doesn't have any authority in regards to the public schools. But I don't see that eventually stopping them.

I think the athletes probably don't see the down side of this...all they see is the money someone is telling them they will get. Never turns out to be the gold mine everyone promises.

[Mosbonian]

If it signals the. End. Of the NCAA, then I am all for it.

I have to ask this question....especially since almost every one of your posts points to this....do you have a real hate for the NCAA?

[LoneWolf]

Yes you can. A free education means jack shit to most of the big sports players(football, basketball, maybe baseball).. They are there to get drafted or go pro.

Education means crap, money on the other hand... More money to go with what they are getting under the table..

Any athlete who thinks that the education they are given a chance to receive doesn't matter is a fucking moron and deserves whatever may happen to them in the future.

[Discuss Thrower]

Any athlete who thinks that the education they are given a chance to receive doesn't matter is a ****ing moron and deserves whatever may happen to them in the future.

You really think the majority of Div 1 football players are computer science, engineering or are taking advantage of internships with businesses that will all but guarantee a job after graduation? Because last I checked communication and kinesiology degrees aren't exactly lucrative.

[alnorth]

You really think the majority of Div 1 football players are computer science, engineering or are taking advantage of internships with businesses that will all but guarantee a job after graduation? Because last I checked communication and kinesiology degrees aren't exactly lucrative.

That doesn't even matter, you don't even have to make that argument.

Education is not this rare commodity that colleges hoard and dole out to a precious few. (this system actually exists in a few countries) If you have money, you can get your education, and anyone no matter how poor can get federal student loans and a part-time job.

Whether the football player wastes the opportunity or not isn't relevant, the education is available even if they are not an athlete. What we are doing, is weighing the value of them not having to take out loans vs the huge pile of cash that many power schools get.

[bowener]

]They get a free education worth[/B] 100k+ it's their own fault if they don't take advantage of it. They get to party,bang hot college chick and be treated like campus heroes while getting to play a game.

They also get a free internship/audition for the career lotto where they can make more money in 1 year than most people do in a lifetime.

serfs my ass

What fucking D1 school costs $100K+ for 4 years?

[LoneWolf]

You really think the majority of Div 1 football players are computer science, engineering or are taking advantage of internships with businesses that will all but guarantee a job after graduation? Because last I checked communication and kinesiology degrees aren't exactly lucrative.

That's the issue. These kids all think they are going on to the NFL, NBA, or MLB and make millions of dollars. That is true for just a small fraction of student athletes. If they would realize this and understand that a free education is nothing to sneeze at, I doubt they would be so quick to thumb their nose at the opportunity in front of them.

[bowener]

Why can't the NCAA require schools to pay their athletes at least the average of all work study jobs on that campus? They could even institute a profit sharing payout where the NCAA pays a percentage of the hourly wage paid to each player for worked hours.

[vailpass]

What ****ing D1 school costs $100K+ for 4 years?

Room, board, tuition, books?
A whole lot of them...

[Xanathol]

Nope. Most scholarships are just free money

Having a set hours per week to work for the university, a work place to report to on time, a boss who you have to obey, and the fact that keeping your scholarship often depends on your performance, does make you an employee.Most scholarships have work study tied to them, ie. set hours to work to earn some of the money. At some universities, attendance is reported and thus, the student must attend to maintain their scholarship. Grades must be upheld in all academic scholarships in order to maintain them. Everything you laid out is a criteria for most every major academic scholarship.

When the athletes for a power school provide over a hundred million dollars of value to that school, you can't just automatically point to the scholarship and declare it to be enough, that is not fair.

Completely untrue. If you look at the costs, no university makes more than ~$38M from their athletic department.

Assuming we are talking walkons as well ( because if they aren't part of the union, that is definitely not fair )...

( taken from LSU's rosters )

120 football players +
~35 baseball players +
20 softball players +
15 basketball players +
15 women's basketball players +
15 volleyball players +
~20 soccer players +
~55 combined swimmers +
~85 combined T&F +
16 combined Tennis +
~15 sand volleyball +
~20 gym +
~15 combined golfers +
~20 combined cross country runners

~= 466 players. LSU is one of 7 major universities that is not subsidized (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/). In 2012, at $114,787,786 coming in and $101,989,116 going out, that's a net of $12,798,670, putting LSU at 8th in net revenue.

Right now, that goes back to the university to fund shortages on the educational side, but I guess you would argue that the money should go to the players instead?

What happens to Missouri, who was last in net revenue in 2012 @ -$16,261,224? Can we get the players to pay the university for its losses? I mean, why stop at 'employee' - they can be stake holders and share in the fruits & losses of their success or lack thereof!

I can remember when as a college athlete, you'd see your 'likeness' in a video game and be completely flattered - not angry because you didn't get paid for it. Over 100 years of college football and this generation is the one that is so arrogant that they feel entitled to 'their share' of a bigger pie instead of valuing the reward they have.... sounds about right, sadly. Its cutting one's nose to spite their face.

[bowener]

That's the issue. These kids all think they are going on to the NFL, NBA, or MLB and make millions of dollars. That is true for just a small fraction of student athletes. If they would realize this and understand that a free education is nothing to sneeze at, I doubt they would be so quick to thumb their nose at the opportunity in front of them.

I've known about a dozen athletes at Mizzou when I worked for the athletic department, and the majority of them did not think they were going pro. Most go on to coach somewhere related to their sport.

[htismaqe]

The NCAA is an outdated and bloated beauracracy

And it's still better than the NFL, NBA, and MLB.

[bowener]

Room, board, tuition, books?
A whole lot of them...

I suppose it depends greatly on in state vs out of state. In Columbia, most of the athletes to do not live on campus.

[htismaqe]

Most scholarships have work study tied to them, ie. set hours to work to earn some of the money. At some universities, attendance is reported and thus, the student must attend to maintain their scholarship. Grades must be upheld in all academic scholarships in order to maintain them. Everything you laid out is a criteria for most every major academic scholarship.

I don't know where you went to school but nowhere around here is work-study required as part of accepting a scholarship.

Scholarships are scholarships, grants are grants, loans are loans, and work-study is work-study.

[LoneWolf]

What ****ing D1 school costs $100K+ for 4 years?

Notre Dame tuition and fees for the 2013-2014 school year are $44,605. That doesn't include books, room and board, or food. That is a total of $178,420 over 4 years. These athletes deserve more I tell ya.

[RufusRJones]

I suppose it depends greatly on in state vs out of state. In Columbia, most of the athletes to do not live on campus.

Northwestern probably costs about 200k for four years...

[Bob Dole]

Well, right now it only applies to the Northwestern football team. (and if they negotiated something, Northwestern would then have to give something similar to their female athletes)

Other private schools, and universities whose states allow public employees to unionize would probably be able to cite it, though.

So private schools and public schools in Kalifornia.

[Discuss Thrower]

That's the issue. These kids all think they are going on to the NFL, NBA, or MLB and make millions of dollars. That is true for just a small fraction of student athletes. If they would realize this and understand that a free education is nothing to sneeze at, I doubt they would be so quick to thumb their nose at the opportunity in front of them.

And the ones that know they aren't going pro know they don't have the time to major in a productive field as well as take advantage of summer and term internships because of in season practices and off season workouts.

[LoneWolf]

And the ones that know they aren't going pro know they don't have the time to major in a productive field as well as take advantage of summer and term internships because of in season practices and off season workouts.

Yeah, Johnny Manziel looked swamped with his football commitments this offseason. :rolleyes:

[chiefzilla1501]

Here's my view. If the ncaa wants to be a nonprofit then act like it instead of creating this fat cat system where a ton of profit off the indentured servitude of unpaid players. And loosen the unbelievably stupid rules about player payment outside the ncaa. Let good players get sponsorships and after their college years over, at least let them get paid for their likeness.

It's not enough to say they get free tuition. The average football player practices 45 hours a week. That is a full time job plus overtime. And unlike regular students, they can't earn a single penny elsewhere. Can't work another job. Can't even get a free lunch, let alone sell their own stuff online.

And the idea that these kids are getting a free education is silly in a system that wilfully cuts scholarships at will if the player becomes ineffective, and where players are constantly practicing or on the road. If you want to call it an educational benefit, then commit to a better student life for them or at least let them stay in school beyond their football years.

[Jimmya]

It's really a bad deal. Had some women on Fox Sports talking about they will sue if they don't get paid the same as football players.

[blaise]

Going to be a lot of colleges pulling the old, "We only break even after travel, coaches salaries and stadium expenses," in a few years.

[mikey23545]

To hell with it. Just do away with all athletic scholarships. These "student" athletes will still be able to join a union.

Almost all sanitation workers have unions.

[LoneWolf]

Going to be a lot of colleges pulling the old, "We only break even after travel, coaches salaries and stadium expenses," in a few years.

Many of them won't be lying.

[jspchief]

I sympathize with the top tier athletes that have to watch colleges bring in billion dollar TV packages as the fruits of their labor. But this is going to destroy college sports.

This will only positively affect a tiny portion of all parties involved. It will kill opportunities for the average player, college, and fan.

[jspchief]

Here's my view. If the ncaa wants to be a nonprofit then act like it instead of creating this fat cat system where a ton of profit off the indentured servitude of unpaid players. And loosen the unbelievably stupid rules about player payment outside the ncaa. Let good players get sponsorships and after their college years over, at least let them get paid for their likeness.

It's not enough to say they get free tuition. The average football player practices 45 hours a week. That is a full time job plus overtime. And unlike regular students, they can't earn a single penny elsewhere. Can't work another job. Can't even get a free lunch, let alone sell their own stuff online.

And the idea that these kids are getting a free education is silly in a system that wilfully cuts scholarships at will if the player becomes ineffective, and where players are constantly practicing or on the road. If you want to call it an educational benefit, then commit to a better student life for them or at least let them stay in school beyond their football years.

This is a very narrow view of college athletics. The golden goose of big time college sports has grown at breakneck speed in a very small amount of time. It's not like these schools created these sports as a cash cow. The explosion of the most popular spectator sports and the television contracts that go with them is a relatively new phenomenon. And the schools are bound by NCAA rules that tied their hands on how that money trickles down to the athlete. Those rules exist in the name of parity, not profit. Designed to give athletes, as well as fans, relatively equal opportunities at every school.

It's not as if colleges back in the 1800s decided to create athletic programs to exploit students for a windfall. All of the rules in place that keep schools from passing that money on are also responsible for the scale of college spectator sports. You want these guys to be paid a wage commensurate with their value? Enjoy your 20 team college football league.

[chiefzilla1501]

This is a very narrow view of college athletics. The golden goose of big time college sports has grown at breakneck speed in a very small amount of time. It's not like these schools created these sports as a cash cow. The explosion of the most popular spectator sports and the television contracts that go with them is a relatively new phenomenon. And the schools are bound by NCAA rules that tied their hands on how that money trickles down to the athlete. Those rules exist in the name of parity, not profit. Designed to give athletes, as well as fans, relatively equal opportunities at every school.

It's not as if colleges back in the 1800s decided to create athletic programs to exploit students for a windfall. All of the rules in place that keep schools from passing that money on are also responsible for the scale of college spectator sports. You want these guys to be paid a wage commensurate with their value? Enjoy your 20 team college football league.

I'm not a fan of unionizing or paying a wage. But again, if you're the NCAA, stop the bullshit of calling yourself a nonprofit then whoring out these players and pretending all of that money goes back into the schools. And lift these ridiculous rules around players getting paid for legit activities. If they want to find a good job to support themselves, let them do it. If they want to sell off their own stuff? Let them do it. Hell, it might teach them the responsibility they badly lack today.

[Deberg_1990]

So all college athletes will be paid then? Stuff like girls soccer, volleyball and Lacrosse? Or just the popular stuff like men's BB and football?

[CoMoChief]

This is what happens when everyone gets greedy over the big time money that is made over collegiate athletics. Everyone wants a piece of the pie. And rightfully so. There's a shit ton of money to be made w/ TV contracts etc. The better you do and the more you win means more money there is to be made.

Big money and greed is going to ruin college sports (it's already started to IMO), just like big money is going to end up ruining the NFL. I honestly don't think the NFL will be around in 20yrs. Not with all of these concussion lawsuits popping up everywhere on every team from past players ...again....wanting a piece of the bigger pie. Not the small pie the players union settled for..that was nothing but animal feed, and to be honest I'm surprised they settled for it. The people that didn't go along w/ the NFLPA Class Action suit are the ones who are going to win big on this issue. And it has the potential to bankrupt the NFL.


It's ALL about money...it's a fight of the millionaires against the billionaires in the pro sports world.

And it's the Hypocritical Big time Corporation that is the NCAA against the amateur athletes that make them billions for a piece of paper that probably won't get many of them anywhere in life after college should they not play in a pro league somewhere. Some of these kids coming in can't even read, and they're coming to an institution because they can catch, run a 4.4 and is 6'4 225lbs..and that's it. There are ways around grades, esp when you're talking about top programs. They'll pay certain people off to cook the books a little bit. That's what happened to Darrell Arthur. KU states they knew nothing about it.........suuuuuuuuuuuure they didn't. You mean to tell me they're going to invest tons of time money and resources recruiting a kid hoping to make millions off the guy in the grand scheme of things, and not even make sure he can even attend the university because he can't understand how to use the FOIL formula? Last time I checked you don't solve algebraic equations when on a bball court or football field.

Whats that quote from the movie The Program? - "80k people don't show up to watch a kid take a chemistry exam". something like that anyways maybe not verbatim. There's 10000% truth to that.

It's a hard problem to solve though. Didn't Roy Williams get into trouble for having some kind of post graduation trust fund set up for his players that got access to certain amount of funds once they graduated ??? That's a good idea but it won't fix the problem for people like Andrew Wiggins and other top 1 and done players. That's also another huge HUGE problem that is ruining the quality of college basketball. I think it should be mandatory to play 3 seasons, with having to option to leave after your Jr year. I also think the NBA needs to do the coincide w/ this and not allow players to be eligible until after their Jr yr in school or 21 yrs of age (or whatever age you'd be as a jr in school). Make it like the NFL where the only main road to the draft in the US is the college circuit. If you want to go pro at 18 instead of going to college...go play overseas. From what I heard is that Andrew Wiggins never went to class this entire semester. And why should he? He's leaving pro and he can fail all he wants to because semester doesn't end til May, and he'll be working out for the draft when it comes a month or so later.

Plus when you start paying football and (male) basketball players...then the women (who for the most part outside of a few programs nationally, probably lose their AD shit loads of money) will start to complain, and then will gymnastics and swimming and again....it's a big pie and everyone wants a piece of it.

Not sure how this will work out....guess we'll see. Cheers.....hava beer.

[GloryDayz]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:: popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[J Diddy]

When the athletes for a power school provide over a hundred million dollars of value to that school, you can't just automatically point to the scholarship and declare it to be enough, that is not fair. Most of the time, the athlete can probably take out loans anyway, so we're just talking about the present value of those loans, not the value of the education.

So why would these kids want to go to a high priced school that, on their academic merits, they couldn't get into in the first place?

They have that choice?

Personally it pisses me off that, because of their athletic ability, they are letting substandard students in and turning down qualified, yet not spectacular, students who want to be there for the education.

[GloryDayz]

So why would these kids want to go to a high priced school that, on their academic merits, they couldn't get into in the first place?

They have that choice?

Personally it pisses me off that, because of their athletic ability, they are letting substandard students in and turning down qualified, yet not spectacular, students who want to be there for the education.

I pray that THIS is where the argument goes. Both sides have VERY valid points, but when you get back to the root of the problem this is all too often what you find, perfectly good colleges letting kids in on the merits that should NOT be in consideration.

Let's see if they go there or dance around it. As a father of a son of a wrestler, tennis player, band kid, and uber-robotics nerd, I'm VERY happy that the 8 (of 8 that he applied to) schools he applied to accepted him on him academic merits. There was no end to the challenges he set for himself on the academic side of the ledger, and it pisses me off that some kid might have made it based on their sports ability.

So I hope this is the beginning of the end for THAT crap!

[Mr. Laz]

Game changer no doubt. The successful programs will be the ones with the deepest pockets. Imagine if Peyton Manning decided not to go to the NFL cuz Tennessee offered him more to stay. Wonder if there will be a cap or ceiling as to what they can be paid? The bidding wars for high school athletes could be ridiculous, with the top players doing the LeBron on ESPN. This is gonna be crazy.
Why would there be a salary cap?

They want complete free market ... no more school recruiting, it's about free agency right out of high school.

75% of school won't be able to compete.

Schools like Harvard and Duke will become national powers in all sports.

schools like KU,KSU and probably even Mizzou will become division 2

[Eleazar]

Yay, they've done so much good for other sports.

Can't wait for the first labor stoppage!

[Mr. Laz]

Yay, they've done so much good for other sports.

Can't wait for the first labor stoppage!
high schoolers and their agents will threaten 'work stoppage' each time the CBA runs out.

and they won't give a crap about anything but their 2 years of being there

[Xanathol]

if you're the NCAA, stop the bullshit of calling yourself a nonprofit then whoring out these players and pretending all of that money goes back into the schools. And lift these ridiculous rules around players getting paid for legit activities. If they want to find a good job to support themselves, let them do it. If they want to sell off their own stuff? Let them do it. Hell, it might teach them the responsibility they badly lack today.

I guess you missed the numbers that show the athletic departments as a whole aren't clearing the amount of money claimed. People focus on what college football takes in but not what it and a number of other sports cost. As shown, Missouri was at the bottom of the list in 2012 @ $16M in the red.

Players can already get jobs in the off season, typically paying much more than other students would make for the same job, all within the rules.

Selling their stuff is a horrible idea. Random booster would ensure recruits that if they attend XYZ University, they will buy $100,000 of their autographs, for example. College football is then nothing but professional ball. If they want that, go pro out of high school (Arena, Semi, or special NFL exemption).

Bottomline, if you don't like playing under the college rules, then don't - no one forces these players into college ball.

[chiefzilla1501]

I guess you missed the numbers that show the athletic departments as a whole aren't clearing the amount of money claimed. People focus on what college football takes in but not what it and a number of other sports cost. As shown, Missouri was at the bottom of the list in 2012 @ $16M in the red.

Players can already get jobs in the off season, typically paying much more than other students would make for the same job, all within the rules.

Selling their stuff is a horrible idea. Random booster would ensure recruits that if they attend XYZ University, they will buy $100,000 of their autographs, for example. College football is then nothing but professional ball. If they want that, go pro out of high school (Arena, Semi, or special NFL exemption).

Bottomline, if you don't like playing under the college rules, then don't - no one forces these players into college ball.

I can assure you Mizzou is not actually in the red because of football. If you don't believe me, give them the death penalty and see if that affects the university's endowment any. Colleges are not struggling to make ends meet because of football. And lots and lots of people except athletes are profiting off these players.

Athletes have major restrictions on the kinds of jobs they can get and how much they are paid, and the amount of work and time that goes into football makes that even harder to do.

I think it's silly to claim that college football players should stop playing the game if they don't like the rules. What rules? We are talking about a nonprofit sport that doesn't pay their employees, and then has masses of people profiting off their work. This conversation wouldn't be happening if there weren't people abusing the privilege of getting these players to work for free (and yes, I get that "free" includes tuition and basic expenses).

[BeeHo]

Let it play out. It's quite interesting. The players that bring in the big money should get a piece of the pie. But how much? How long would then they be allowed to play?

Then the smaller programs and less popular sports may ask for unreasonable amounts of compensation.

I go to grad school at U. Kentucky and there were these huge posters of Anthony Davis. Wondered how much he got people to buy merchandise and he got not a single penny. Granted, he was banking on being drafted first round.

will the unionization of college sports self regulate and find a balance? Or cripple it entirely?



EXCITING.

[BeeHo]

It's really a bad deal. Had some women on Fox Sports talking about they will sue if they don't get paid the same as football players.

they're being ridiculous. assume gymnastics women getting paid the same as best college football programs, and logistically their demands force the gymnastic program to close. with enough programs forcing to close wouldn't then a school lose it's division status or membership in their conference?

cray cray :banghead:

[Chiefspants]

If I managed to publish a novel, should KU have ownership of the publication?

[Discuss Thrower]

If I managed to publish a novel, should KU have ownership of the publication?

Only if you were on scholarship to do so and enrolled in a program to write a novel or collection of other works and this was made explicitly clear and signed by both parties... I guess

[BeeHo]

If I managed to publish a novel, should KU have ownership of the publication?

in research, if you're getting a MS or PhD, your work is not solely your own since you used equipment, resources and mentors.

i guess for novels...i don't know. hmmm. better to drop out of school first before publishing.

[Smed1065]

I love the college level cause they get fucked for a degree that sucks 9/10 but they get a degree.

[ForeverChiefs58]

It's all about the money, and the money will ruin it all

[Mosbonian]

It would be an interesting study on the comments here to find out:

1) Of those in favor of unionizing, how many were college athletes?

2) How many on here commenting wonder if the decision might also trigger a lawsuit to make the NCAA cough up money from the past that it made on athletes?

[WhawhaWhat]

The NBA should convert the D-League into an under 22 league and go around the NCAA altogether now. Put teams in cities that don't have NBA teams like KC, Louisville and even cities that do like NY, LA and Charlotte (barely has an NBA team anyway).

NFL could do the same thing.

[13and3]

Simply put, All you haters are just jealous.

[13and3]

If I had to profile the average football or basketball college athlete, a tall, muscular, young black man, tattoos, sagging pants, unkept hair and or braids. . His hobbies are rapping, playing xbox, banging hot chicks, handing out with his old hoodlum friends, and maybe smoking a little weed.

The profile of the average college sports fan is the exact opposite, white dude, decent job, doesn't sag pants, has to work hard every day, occasional drinker, not totally immersed in hip hop culture.

These two people have nothing in common, I would venture to say if your average college alumni saw a group of these young men on the plaza or the zoo and did not recognize them they would cross the street as they approached.

My point is of course you want these young men to be broke, it is the only way you can rationalize your support of them. If they make as much or more than you, then they turn into professional athletes and the innocence we like to pretend they have is taken away. And all we are left with is the fact we are rooting for someone who is different then us and has it much better than us in almost every way, its unacceptable and it sucks to be you.

[GloryDayz]

If I had to profile the average football or basketball college athlete, a tall, muscular, young black man, tattoos, sagging pants, unkept hair and or braids. . His hobbies are rapping, playing xbox, banging hot chicks, handing out with his old hoodlum friends, and maybe smoking a little weed.

The profile of the average college sports fan is the exact opposite, white dude, decent job, doesn't sag pants, has to work hard every day, occasional drinker, not totally immersed in hip hop culture.

These two people have nothing in common, I would venture to say if your average college alumni saw a group of these young men on the plaza or the zoo and did not recognize them they would cross the street as they approached.

My point is of course you want these young men to be broke, it is the only way you can rationalize your support of them. If they make as much or more than you, then they turn into professional athletes and the innocence we like to pretend they have is taken away. And all we are left with is the fact we are rooting for someone who is different then us and has it much better than us in almost every way, its unacceptable and it sucks to be you.

Wait, what???? WOW, just wow!!

OK, that post might win for "dumb post of the day"...

[13and3]

Wait, what???? WOW, just wow!!

OK, that post might win for "dumb post of the day"...

Why?

[WhawhaWhat]

If I had to profile the average football or basketball college athlete, a tall, muscular, young black man, tattoos, sagging pants, unkept hair and or braids. . His hobbies are rapping, playing xbox, banging hot chicks, handing out with his old hoodlum friends, and maybe smoking a little weed.

The profile of the average college sports fan is the exact opposite, white dude, decent job, doesn't sag pants, has to work hard every day, occasional drinker, not totally immersed in hip hop culture.

These two people have nothing in common, I would venture to say if your average college alumni saw a group of these young men on the plaza or the zoo and did not recognize them they would cross the street as they approached.

My point is

Ugh.. finally.

of course you want these young men to be broke, it is the only way you can rationalize your support of them. If they make as much or more than you, then they turn into professional athletes and the innocence we like to pretend they have is taken away. And all we are left with is the fact we are rooting for someone who is different than us and has it much better than us in almost every way, its unacceptable and it sucks to be you.


All that reading just for this. When athletes get paid, nobody likes them anymore because they are better than average Joe.

This must be why nobody watches professional sports... or buys their jerseys... or attends autograph sessions at the local grocery store.

[13and3]

We might like to pretend they are all just good kids playing for free at our favorite universities, but the simple fact is, is that without their athletic abilities these kids are on the most part are loosers. Without the ability to play some sort of ball on high level they are not making good life decisions . Why do you think they waste their free education on bullshit degrees?
I grew up in the hood myself and what I quickly learned is that hanging out on the basketball court in the hood is dangerous and detrimental. Young black children spend way to much time chasing hoop dreams and buying into this rap star, basketball player bullshit hype. Less than 1 percent ever make it, and when they do they perpetuate this life style to the next generation further. I've met plenty of people who love college hoops but hate the NBA, they never can give a good reason why. The why is is that the money and fame tells peels back the facade and tells us what we already knew and we didn't want to admit, we don't like thugs, unless they help my Alma mater when a championship.

[13and3]

Ugh.. finally.




All that reading just for this. When athletes get paid, nobody likes them anymore because they are better than average Joe.

This must be why nobody watches professional sports... or buys their jerseys... or attends autograph sessions at the local grocery store.

You cant claim that there isn't a huge demographic out there who loves college sports but rarely watches anything professional. I meet people like this all the time.

[permachief]

If its decided that these athletes are "employees" of the school, are these "employees" going to start getting a W-2 for the value of their full-ride scholarships since this is their "employee" compensation? Are these new "employees" ready to start paying Fed and state taxes on their "employee" compensation like the rest of us?

[Pasta Little Brioni]

The good ones get paid out of pocket anyway...much less all the EDUCATION PAID FOR

[Mecca]

We might like to pretend they are all just good kids playing for free at our favorite universities, but the simple fact is, is that without their athletic abilities these kids are on the most part are loosers. Without the ability to play some sort of ball on high level they are not making good life decisions . Why do you think they waste their free education on bullshit degrees?
I grew up in the hood myself and what I quickly learned is that hanging out on the basketball court in the hood is dangerous and detrimental. Young black children spend way to much time chasing hoop dreams and buying into this rap star, basketball player bullshit hype. Less than 1 percent ever make it, and when they do they perpetuate this life style to the next generation further. I've met plenty of people who love college hoops but hate the NBA, they never can give a good reason why. The why is is that the money and fame tells peels back the facade and tells us what we already knew and we didn't want to admit, we don't like thugs, unless they help my Alma mater when a championship.

People need to get over the money thing, I don't watch sports and think about how much the players make.

I think the reason the NBA is not popular is because the thug aspect is right in front of everyone's face because of the uniform. Where as the thug aspect of the NFL is more hidden.

Then you factor in that the vast majority of fans especially ones that pay money to go to the games are middle to old aged white people then you see why the NBA isn't popular. The NFL instituted and shit ton of rules because the last thing they wanted was the "thugs took over the game" perception basketball has.

And of course baseball, hockey and soccer don't have these issues they just aren't popular because they're either slow or to foreign in concept.

[Mecca]

You cant claim that there isn't a huge demographic out there who loves college sports but rarely watches anything professional. I meet people like this all the time.

Yea those people seem to think college athletes are more organic or something which is kinda bullshit.

[nychief]

More proof that all it takes is a few dumbasses to ruin something good for everyone. Notice too that it's always the teams / players that really don't matter that do the complaining... I mean, Northwestern? Really?!?


- Wal Mart employee

[13and3]

Take a football out of Peyton Mannings hands, he is still highly intelligent and still successful
Take a football out of Alex Smiths hands, he is still highly intelligent and still successful
Take a football out of Ray Lewis hands, in jail or dead.
Take a football out Micheal Vicks hands, in jail or dead.
Take a Basketball out of most tatted up 6 foot 10 black mens hands in the N.B.A. or college hoops where are they at? These guys are not people you would like to be friends with, stop acting like they are our children and we give a rats ass about them outside of what they can do for out chosen school. This is why we don't care if they are flat broke.

[htismaqe]

If I managed to publish a novel, should KU have ownership of the publication?

If you signed an employment agreement that gives them ownership of IP you produce, yes.

[Bob Dole]

People need to get over the money thing, I don't watch sports and think about how much the players make.

I think the reason the NBA is not popular is because the thug aspect is right in front of everyone's face because of the uniform. Where as the thug aspect of the NFL is more hidden.


Bob Dole doesn't like the NBA because they do not enforce the rules of basketball.

[GloryDayz]

Why?

"The profile of the average college sports fan is the exact opposite, white dude, decent job, doesn't sag pants, has to work hard every day, occasional drinker, not totally immersed in hip hop culture."

You just painted with one hell of a broad brush! I'm sure there are a few people who want it, but the "average" fan may not dress like what you say, but I'm not sure you can say that because they don't dress the same they want them poor!

So yeah, I don't wear baggy pants, and what I think about that fashion isn't relevant. Gut I can tell you this, I'm white and I think I've been a pretty big advocate for the kids getting in on the coin since the balloon of profit has spiraled to epic levels.

But I also think "the kids" should have to be students first. Make it to class, earn their way into college academically, and not get revolving breaks. Not because of the color of their skin, but because they're taking a spot for a kid (of ANY color!!) who tried harder in school. I don't care how few it is, and how some schools DO achieve, the problem are these kids are the face of these schools, and they don't represent the education part of the college.

But int he end, if these kids are playing something that bring money into the school "hand over fist", yeah, they deserve a cut of the loot..

But in the end you sound like you just can't stand kids who are "yuppies" and don't dress in a manner that's often associated with "thug". Dressing the part may not make you a thug, but it's not like you're still not dressing like a thug. If that bothers you, deal with it!

[13and3]

"The profile of the average college sports fan is the exact opposite, white dude, decent job, doesn't sag pants, has to work hard every day, occasional drinker, not totally immersed in hip hop culture."

You just painted with one hell of a broad brush! I'm sure there are a few people who want it, but the "average" fan may not dress like what you say, but I'm not sure you can say that because they don't dress the same they want them poor!

So yeah, I don't wear baggy pants, and what I think about that fashion isn't relevant. Gut I can tell you this, I'm white and I think I've been a pretty big advocate for the kids getting in on the coin since the balloon of profit has spiraled to epic levels.

But I also think "the kids" should have to be students first. Make it to class, earn their way into college academically, and not get revolving breaks. Not because of the color of their skin, but because they're taking a spot for a kid (of ANY color!!) who tried harder in school. I don't care how few it is, and how some schools DO achieve, the problem are these kids are the face of these schools, and they don't represent the education part of the college.

But int he end, if these kids are playing something that bring money into the school "hand over fist", yeah, they deserve a cut of the loot..

But in the end you sound like you just can't stand kids who are "yuppies" and don't dress in a manner that's often associated with "thug". Dressing the part may not make you a thug, but it's not like you're still not dressing like a thug. If that bothers you, deal with it!

I ask you, do you or do you not recognize or know that there are a shit ton of people who love them some KU basketball, but can give two shits about the NBA? Mario Chalmers, an all time great at KU has two championships wtih the Miami Heat, where are all the die hard Heat fans from KU?

[LoneWolf]

Holy shit. Where did this retard 13and3 come from?

[Mecca]

I ask you, do you or do you not recognize or know that there are a shit ton of people who love them some KU basketball, but can give two shits about the NBA? Mario Chalmers, an all time great at KU has two championships wtih the Miami Heat, where are all the die hard Heat fans from KU?

You don't usually find many NBA fans in a market where there is no NBA team.

[Chief Roundup]

If they start paying college athletes then the NCAA should remove all scholarships for sports programs.

[13and3]

Holy shit. Where did this retard 13and3 come from?

You have no good argument against anything I am saying so you have to resort to name calling. It reflects the fact I have a valid argument and the truth stings so hard. This happens when you cut through all the bullshit people like to hide behind and get into some real emotional and psychological answers. Its called striking a nerve.

[TEX]

If they start paying college athletes then the NCAA should remove all scholarships for sports programs.

If they form a union, and are viewed as "employees" the athletes very well could be taxed on the value of their education as well as their monetary compensation. They will get the good with the bad. I think this is a classic case of, "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it"...

[13and3]

You don't usually find many NBA fans in a market where there is no NBA team.

Good point. I was just trying to say if everyone who loves KU basketball or other college sports so much and adores it players, why don't they continue to follow them throughout their careers. Are they not the same kids who played for the love of the game earlier in their lives. Once they become millionaires, or graduate and continue their careers in the communications field who gives a shit about them?

[-King-]

So why would these kids want to go to a high priced school that, on their academic merits, they couldn't get into in the first place?

They have that choice?

Personally it pisses me off that, because of their athletic ability, they are letting substandard students in and turning down qualified, yet not spectacular, students who want to be there for the education.
An athlete getting an ATHLETIC scholarship has nothing to do with any other student being rejected.
Posted via Mobile Device

[TEX]

You have no good argument against anything I am saying so you have to resort to name calling. It reflects the fact I have a valid argument and the truth stings so hard. This happens when you cut through all the bullshit people like to hide behind and get into some real emotional and psychological answers. Its called striking a nerve.

No it doesn't. It could mean he thinks you're full of it and doesnt want to fuck with presenting what you deem to be a valid argument...:shrug:

I do it all the time here because there are so many idiots. People do it to me too. :hmmm: Just part of the deal...

[Gonzo]

This is why China is winning.

[FRCDFED]

If they form a union, and are viewed as "employees" the athletes very well could be taxed on the value of their education as well as their monetary compensation. They will get the good with the bad. I think this is a classic case of, "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it"...

Once scholarships are pulled and athletes expect to get paid then the question remains........How many colleges are going to start expecting athletes to actually get passing grades in the classroom without any extra-curricular help? Thereby making many (not all) of the athletes academically ineligible to play for the school?

[Jimmya]

It could jack the athletes up because many schools will not let them in if they don't meet the guidelines to get in.

[Xanathol]

I can assure you Mizzou is not actually in the red because of football. If you don't believe me, give them the death penalty and see if that affects the university's endowment any. Colleges are not struggling to make ends meet because of football. And lots and lots of people except athletes are profiting off these players.

Athletes have major restrictions on the kinds of jobs they can get and how much they are paid, and the amount of work and time that goes into football makes that even harder to do.

I think it's silly to claim that college football players should stop playing the game if they don't like the rules. What rules? We are talking about a nonprofit sport that doesn't pay their employees, and then has masses of people profiting off their work. This conversation wouldn't be happening if there weren't people abusing the privilege of getting these players to work for free (and yes, I get that "free" includes tuition and basic expenses).

1. Re-read the numbers again please - Mizzou's athletic department was in the red for 2012. That is not debatable. ~$16M in the hole.

You are getting lost in the football numbers but ignoring the sports that are nothing but money pits ( almost everything else ). So when you say 'lots and lots of people are profiting off these players', only in the sense that (a) coaches & ADs get paid and (b) TV gets theirs... and always will. TV is a yin & yang thing - without it, the program isn't taking in the money that it is. Coaches and ADs... are you going to say they don't deserve to get paid?!?

2. Being a former collegiate athlete, I can firmly attest that you are overstating the restrictions on employment. The jobs are approved & monitored to make sure some work is getting done, but the pay is very good and the labor is usually minimized ( ie. 'cushy' jobs ).

3. So 'fair pay' isn't silly but participating in a market by choosing where to work is? :doh!:

Student athletes are compensated with the best scholarships in the country. Low GPA requirements, tuition paid, housing paid, food paid, some miscellaneous campus items paid ( on campus card program for extra meals or bookstore supplies ), loaner books, setup with a well paying summer job, free tutoring, free continuing education for your bachelor if you leave early for the NFL, free health care via personal training staff, and if they make a bowl game, free gifts such as shopping sprees, TVs, $400 headphones, MP3 players, and video game systems.

Yeah... they are sooooo taken advantage of... :rolleyes:

But obviously, suggesting that if they don't like those accommodations that they can pursue the Arena league, Canadian league, SemiPro league or special exemption to enter the NFL early, that's just crazy talk! :spock:

[mr. tegu]

People need to stop citing the full ride scholarships as some great benefit that should keep the students happy and grateful. The "free" education they receive can be taken away at any time because of their abilities on the field or not complying with some other ridiculous rule. As far as I know, none of them are guaranteed a free, four year education (perhaps some are?). That argument that it is adequate "compensation" is ridiculous since there is no guarantee that they will all get a free education since it is dependent upon their athletics.

Also, we know they spend a ton of time on the field practicing basically year round. Some of them probably don't care about their major because they intend to go pro, but plenty of them would surely choose a more difficult major if given the time to actually do the work and learn it at an adequate level.

[mr. tegu]

"You get a free, full ride, four year scholarship. But it is only for a year at a time. Oh, and make sure you don't get injured either!"

[J Diddy]

People need to stop citing the full ride scholarships as some great benefit that should keep the students happy and grateful. The "free" education they receive can be taken away at any time because of their abilities on the field or not complying with some other ridiculous rule. As far as I know, none of them are guaranteed a free, four year education (perhaps some are?). That argument that it is adequate "compensation" is ridiculous since there is no guarantee that they will all get a free education since it is dependent upon their athletics.

Also, we know they spend a ton of time on the field practicing basically year round. Some of them probably don't care about their major because they intend to go pro, but plenty of them would surely choose a more difficult major if given the time to actually do the work and learn it at an adequate level.

So I'm supposed to give 3 shits about some guy who works out year round instead of studying? College is a place for learning, athletics should be included as extracurricular to benefit that student. In terms of pulling scholarships, if they don't do the work they get fired? Sounds like a job to me.

Furthermore, how many brain dead dumb ass athletes do you see on TV after going pro? Would they be able to go pro if they don't attend college? Seems like their whole purpose of going in the first place is to get exposure to a professional league. Isn't that a form of payment as well? It's a freaking tryout to the league.

[LoneWolf]

You have no good argument against anything I am saying so you have to resort to name calling. It reflects the fact I have a valid argument and the truth stings so hard. This happens when you cut through all the bullshit people like to hide behind and get into some real emotional and psychological answers. Its called striking a nerve.

Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them.

You also said the majority of black college athletes would be in prison or dead if they didn't have the ability to play ball. I knew many black athletes when I went to college and I guarantee you that many of them are smarter than you and had aspirations outside of sports.

Your argument about how most college basketball fans don't like the NBA and that this is because the NBA looks thuggish with all the tatted up players and also that they are getting paid millions of dollars is rubbish. Personally, I don't like the NBA because they don't play basketball the way I like to see it played. Too much of 4 players standing around while one player goes one on one against a defender. I never think about what a certain player is making or concern myself with how many tattoos they have or if they have dreadlocks or not.

Please feel free to continue on with your blatant stupidity though. It has been mildly entertaining.

[mr. tegu]

So I'm supposed to give 3 shits about some guy who works out year round instead of studying? College is a place for learning, athletics should be included as extracurricular to benefit that student. In terms of pulling scholarships, if they don't do the work they get fired? Sounds like a job to me.

Furthermore, how many brain dead dumb ass athletes do you see on TV after going pro? Would they be able to go pro if they don't attend college? Seems like their whole purpose of going in the first place is to get exposure to a professional league. Isn't that a form of payment as well? It's a freaking tryout to the league.

You should re-read my post. This time actually read it. Also, quit focusing solely on the small percentage who are there only to go pro.

[Mosbonian]

Bob Dole doesn't like the NBA because they do not enforce the rules of basketball.

I'm with you on this one....I went to my first NBA game in 3 years when I went to see the Pacers and Milwaukee play a few weeks back.

What they were playing out there didn't seem to be basketball according to the rules that I remember.

[13and3]

Ok, for all you haters out there, I am a hater too and that is how I know what you are truly feeling inside. Here is a little insight on why I am for these players getting coin. It is a purely egotistical and selfish reason, not unlike a lot of you who want the opposite.

Some years ago I while I was attending UMKC school of engineering, a pretty hot girl would sit beside me in English class and we would chat. I would attend school all day 8am to 9pm Tues and Thurs and then have to go to work Mon, Wed, Sat, and Sun, to support myself. Just so happened we got paired up on some lame as research paper. The only day I had free was Friday so I told her we need to get together that day to make this thing happen. She told me it was no way for her to make it to the library because she just had to attend Mike Washington's party. Who in the **** is Mike Washington, I asked her. " You don't know who Mike Washington is? She replied." come to find out and for those who don't remember he was the star basketball player for the Roos. Needless to say I did the paper myself and she got the credit.

I had to work to support myself through school, Mike Washington had a scholarship, and all the girls because he could dribble a damn basketball. Now a days I have a degree in engineering, have my own company, married and make more than a 100 grand a year.

I look back and realize now, growing up in the hood I was around lots of Mike Washingtons in my childhood. From my perspective They hung out way to much on the basketball court. They lost lots of valuable time studying, doing chores, or cutting grass and finding some way of earning some money. Most have ended up in either in jail, dead or still on those street corners and playgrounds. What I have now is better than what he had then, and I can live with that. So while they get all the attention, free school, and girls. Most aren't smart enough to make it count later in life. I am going to do my own thing and let them do theirs. Im not going to hate on some dumb college athlete because he can get paid now, that's way to petty for me. In the end I am living the good life, a job that offers the satisfaction of actually producing something the world needs, a family I love, a nice house in a good neighborhood, and a decent ride. In the end I could care less if the student athlete got paid or not, It just bothers me that people hold the basketball player rapper types in such high regard that them having a little money in their pocket makes them feel less secure, so they come up with lots of lame paper thin reasons why they should be happy with what the school gives them. What they are really saying he has more than what I had in school and I cant stand the idea of him having more. If that is the case you are still in competition with the Mike Washingtons of the world. Im my opinion **** him, **** Wiggins, **** Beasly, **** Embiid, and who ever the next major recruit is. It makes no difference, I still have to get up and go to work in the morning, and cut the grass on Sundays before the Chiefs Game. Why do we even care what some 18 year old kid does with a Basketball, he doesn't even know you exist, just as I am sure Mike Washington didn't miss me at his party. All I am asking is quit spouting out all this bullshit and own your own truth, and to all you English majors out there who are going to piss on my grammatical skills with regard to this post **** you too.

[Mosbonian]

Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them.

You also said the majority of black college athletes would be in prison or dead if they didn't have the ability to play ball. I knew many black athletes when I went to college and I guarantee you that many of them are smarter than you and had aspirations outside of sports.

Your argument about how most college basketball fans don't like the NBA and that this is because the NBA looks thuggish with all the tatted up players and also that they are getting paid millions of dollars is rubbish. Personally, I don't like the NBA because they don't play basketball the way I like to see it played. Too much of 4 players standing around while one player goes one on one against a defender. I never think about what a certain player is making or concern myself with how many tattoos they have or if they have dreadlocks or not.

Please feel free to continue on with your blatant stupidity though. It has been mildly entertaining.

Rep....well said.

[13and3]

Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them.

You also said the majority of black college athletes would be in prison or dead if they didn't have the ability to play ball. I knew many black athletes when I went to college and I guarantee you that many of them are smarter than you and had aspirations outside of sports.

Your argument about how most college basketball fans don't like the NBA and that this is because the NBA looks thuggish with all the tatted up players and also that they are getting paid millions of dollars is rubbish. Personally, I don't like the NBA because they don't play basketball the way I like to see it played. Too much of 4 players standing around while one player goes one on one against a defender. I never think about what a certain player is making or concern myself with how many tattoos they have or if they have dreadlocks or not.

Please feel free to continue on with your blatant stupidity though. It has been mildly entertaining.

I know lots of post successful college athletes too. They work for Eneterprise rental.

[Mosbonian]

Ok, for all you haters out there, I am a hater too and that is how I know what you are truly feeling inside..

I am pretty sure you lost many when you lead off with this...

[Mosbonian]

I know lots of post successful college athletes too. They work for Eneterprise rental.

You watch too many commercials.

[mikey23545]

People need to stop citing the full ride scholarships as some great benefit that should keep the students happy and grateful. The "free" education they receive can be taken away at any time because of their abilities on the field or not complying with some other ridiculous rule. As far as I know, none of them are guaranteed a free, four year education (perhaps some are?). That argument that it is adequate "compensation" is ridiculous since there is no guarantee that they will all get a free education since it is dependent upon their athletics.

Also, we know they spend a ton of time on the field practicing basically year round. Some of them probably don't care about their major because they intend to go pro, but plenty of them would surely choose a more difficult major if given the time to actually do the work and learn it at an adequate level.


Oh, you mean like all the rest of us who can be fired from our jobs because of poor performance?

[mr. tegu]

If receiving the free education is completely dependent upon the athletics, the ability to stay healthy, follow every rule, and maintain good productivity in competition, which of athletics and academics is truly the more important focus? (Hint: there is only one correct answer)

[13and3]

You watch too many commercials.

No really, it not just a commercial it is true.

[mikey23545]

"You get a free, full ride, four year scholarship. But it is only for a year at a time. Oh, and make sure you don't get injured either!"

They get free medical care, unlike a lot of us poor saps working for a living.

[mr. tegu]

Oh, you mean like all the rest of us who can be fired from our jobs because of poor performance?

Is their athletics a job now?

[mikey23545]

People need to stop citing the full ride scholarships as some great benefit that should keep the students happy and grateful. The "free" education they receive can be taken away at any time because of their abilities on the field or not complying with some other ridiculous rule. As far as I know, none of them are guaranteed a free, four year education (perhaps some are?). That argument that it is adequate "compensation" is ridiculous since there is no guarantee that they will all get a free education since it is dependent upon their athletics.

Also, we know they spend a ton of time on the field practicing basically year round. Some of them probably don't care about their major because they intend to go pro, but plenty of them would surely choose a more difficult major if given the time to actually do the work and learn it at an adequate level.


Then why don't they eschew football and pursue their academic aims if that is their desire?

[mikey23545]

Is their athletics a job now?

That's what you're comparing it to.

[mr. tegu]

They get free medical care, unlike a lot of us poor saps working for a living.

They get free medical care while on scholarship. What about when it is taken away because of the injury?

[mikey23545]

Oh, and at my job I never got free lodging, all meals and medical care...I would hate to think of what all that totals up to for those poor, poor "slaves" toiling away at the game of football...

[mr. tegu]

That's what you're comparing it to.

And so are you.

[mikey23545]

They get free medical care while on scholarship. What about when it is taken away because of the injury?

Oh, crap...Now they should get lifetime free medical care?

[mr. tegu]

Then why don't they eschew football and pursue their academic aims if that is their desire?

Because they might lose their scholarship and free education everyone says is so valuable if they focus too much on academics?

[mikey23545]

Because they might lose their scholarship and free education everyone says is so valuable if they focus too much on academics?

Obviously you cannot read with comprehension.


Then why don't they eschew football and pursue their academic aims if that is their desire?

[mr. tegu]

Oh, crap...Now they should get lifetime free medical care?

So let me get this straight. If a football player gets injured at the end of the season with a torn acl, which requires 18 months of recovery, you are okay with that player being saddled with the medical bills after his athletic scholarship is taken away/not renewed?

[mikey23545]

You imply they do not receive fair compensation for their efforts.

Free tuition, free meals, free lodging in dorms, or a stipend allowing them to live off campus, free medical care...Benefits that must total far in excess of what many, many people earn.

You sir, are a liberal idiot.

[mr. tegu]

Obviously you cannot read with comprehension.


Then why don't they eschew football and pursue their academic aims if that is their desire?

This is even more ridiculous then. Now they should pass up a free education all together that is oh so valuable, because they can't do what they want to do on the athletic scholarship.

[mr. tegu]

You imply they do not receive fair compensation for their efforts.

Free tuition, free meals, free lodging in dorms, or a stipend allowing them to live off campus, free medical care...Benefits that must total far in excess of what many, many people earn.

You sir, are a liberal idiot.

Nice tap out. ROFL

None of those things you said are guaranteed beyond each year. And earning those benefits is entirely dependent on athletics. Ergo, "student" is clearly not more important than "athlete."

[13and3]

Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them.

You also said the majority of black college athletes would be in prison or dead if they didn't have the ability to play ball. I knew many black athletes when I went to college and I guarantee you that many of them are smarter than you and had aspirations outside of sports.

Your argument about how most college basketball fans don't like the NBA and that this is because the NBA looks thuggish with all the tatted up players and also that they are getting paid millions of dollars is rubbish. Personally, I don't like the NBA because they don't play basketball the way I like to see it played. Too much of 4 players standing around while one player goes one on one against a defender. I never think about what a certain player is making or concern myself with how many tattoos they have or if they have dreadlocks or not.

Please feel free to continue on with your blatant stupidity though. It has been mildly entertaining.

The black athletes you knew? Would they even have made it to school with out their ability to play ball? Would they have made it on academic scholarship, or did their parents have the money to pay?

You also said "Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them."

I didn't exactly say that you did, and this idea seems to bother everyone the most. I will admit though you don't see alot of minorities at college sporting events. What has been you experience, or did you even notice. Maybe not as I am sure you are above such things.

[LoneWolf]

The black athletes you knew? Would they even have made it to school with out their ability to play ball? Would they have made it on academic scholarship, or did their parents have the money to pay?

You also said "Your argument is complete bullshit. You basically stated that the majority of college sports fans are priveledged white people who don't want to see the poor black athlete make money so that these white people can continue to look down on these athletes and feel some sort of superiority to them."

I didn't exactly say that you did, and this idea seems to bother everyone the most. I will admit though you don't see alot of minorities at college sporting events. What has been you experience, or did you even notice. Maybe not as I am sure you are above such things.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR89Fu8TZO70xEJ9MiS0SCYhAdQXmN8LxxMAXmx-U0ikXT8sbo1pCQN9VLW

Yep, not many minorities show up for college sporting events.

[GloryDayz]

I ask you, do you or do you not recognize or know that there are a shit ton of people who love them some KU basketball, but can give two shits about the NBA? Mario Chalmers, an all time great at KU has two championships wtih the Miami Heat, where are all the die hard Heat fans from KU?

I ask you, do you not recognize or know that there are a shit ton of people who think kids go to college to get educated. So baggy pants or millionaires, some of the rub here isn't who like basketball or the NBA (or British tennis), it's all about opening Pandora's box.

I happen to agree with the opening, but not for all the same reasons as many think, I'm just thinking in a billion dollar industry (which is the only way I think "fans" come into it - they enable the billion dollar industry), then perhaps the major players in that scheme might should be considered for some more benefit than having their classes covered. But I also know it opens up all those other questions, you know, while the box is open...

[Xanathol]

So let me get this straight. If a football player gets injured at the end of the season with a torn acl, which requires 18 months of recovery, you are okay with that player being saddled with the medical bills after his athletic scholarship is taken away/not renewed?
So you're basically saying you have no idea what you are talking about, because that doesn't happen. If you get a major injury, your school is still paid for but football is over with. Now if you get a boo boo and claim you can no longer perform, that's another story, but a torn ACL or such? No - athletes are covered.

[Jimmya]

Pandoras box is an accurate assessment.

[mr. tegu]

So you're basically saying you have no idea what you are talking about, because that doesn't happen. If you get a major injury, your school is still paid for but football is over with. Now if you get a boo boo and claim you can no longer perform, that's another story, but a torn ACL or such? No - athletes are covered.

You are incorrect. Both on tuition and on medical expenses.

"People are surprised [the University of Louisville] could have opted to leave him with medical expenses and leave him off the team," said Huma. "The fact that they have that option is outrageous."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/kevin-wares-injury-draws-attention-ncaa-healthcare-debate/story?id=18889697

One example of tuition not being covered:

"His family has been stuck with tuition bills since his scholarship was not renewed. And with those bills unpaid, he also can’t get his academic transcripts from Oklahoma to transfer to another school."

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/09/for-college-scholarship-athletes-injury-can-spell-financial-disaster/

[BlackHelicopters]

:popcorn:

[mr. tegu]

California has actually addressed this in some capacity for the states largest schools. Note that it is for career ending injuries only though. I have no idea what defines that though. But at least they do get their tuition and medical bills taken care of.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8434081/california-law-aid-injured-athletes-pac-12

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

"You get a free, full ride, four year scholarship. But it is only for a year at a time. Oh, and make sure you don't get injured either!"

Meh. Im all for paying the players, but injured players still get the free ride. They just get a waiver and don't count towards the 85 scholarship limit.

[Bweb]

Something to think about that I heard on Mike and Mike this morning.....

Currently, athletic scholarships are considered grants in aid, which are not taxable.

If student/athletes are to be considered employees of the schools (with the main reason to be considered employees is that their scholarships are considered compensation)...would their scholarships then be considered taxable income? :doh!:

[htismaqe]

Something to think about that I heard on Mike and Mike this morning.....

Currently, athletic scholarships are considered grants in aid, which are not taxable.

If student/athletes are to be considered employees of the schools (with the main reason to be considered employees is that their scholarships are considered compensation)...would their scholarships then be considered taxable income? :doh!:

And here's another wrinkle...

Most (if not all) grants are done directly to the institution. The student never gets a "check", and in the case of institutional scholarships, money never actually changes hands at all.

If they become employees and get a paycheck, not only will that be taxable, but that income will be issued TO THE STUDENT. At that point, like any work-study job, it becomes the student's money to do with as the please.

What happens when 30+ athletes at a school suddenly default on their tuition payments because they decided to spend that money on something else?

[mr. tegu]

Meh. Im all for paying the players, but injured players still get the free ride. They just get a waiver and don't count towards the 85 scholarship limit.

No they don't by anything that I am seeing. I already provided one link that seems to dispel this notion. Is there is some type of off the book waiver that can be utilized if the school wants? In this case below, it looks like if their scholarship isn't renewed, no more free ride. If they did get the tuition, these guys wouldn't have had to sue, and have their case dismissed.

"The athletic scholarships held by plaintiffs at the time of their injuries were good for one year only, and needed to be renewed to be valid for any subsequent seasons. When plaintiffs’ injuries prevented them from playing football, their scholarships were not renewed."

http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?s=&d=55940

Their tuition for that academic year is covered, but not beyond that. This is one reason the Northwestern guys are asking for four year scholarships.

[Skyy God]

Something to think about that I heard on Mike and Mike this morning.....

Currently, athletic scholarships are considered grants in aid, which are not taxable.

If student/athletes are to be considered employees of the schools (with the main reason to be considered employees is that their scholarships are considered compensation)...would their scholarships then be considered taxable income? :doh!:

And here's another wrinkle...

Most (if not all) grants are done directly to the institution. The student never gets a "check", and in the case of institutional scholarships, money never actually changes hands at all.

If they become employees and get a paycheck, not only will that be taxable, but that income will be issued TO THE STUDENT. At that point, like any work-study job, it becomes the student's money to do with as the please.

What happens when 30+ athletes at a school suddenly default on their tuition payments because they decided to spend that money on something else?

This is all theoretical at this point, but the ultimate outcome might be the existing scholarship plus a potentially taxable stipend.

[Iowanian]

Cool.


Start taxing these athletes for the "income" they are receiving over and above the average student in their universities and colleges.

[Xanathol]

You are incorrect. Both on tuition and on medical expenses.

"People are surprised [the University of Louisville] could have opted to leave him with medical expenses and leave him off the team," said Huma. "The fact that they have that option is outrageous."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/kevin-wares-injury-draws-attention-ncaa-healthcare-debate/story?id=18889697

One example of tuition not being covered:

"His family has been stuck with tuition bills since his scholarship was not renewed. And with those bills unpaid, he also can’t get his academic transcripts from Oklahoma to transfer to another school."

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/09/for-college-scholarship-athletes-injury-can-spell-financial-disaster/

Reading is fundamental. As I stated, a serious injury will be covered - if its not serious, that's another story.

If you read the articles you linked, the first one clearly states (1) the player is not in jeopardy of losing his scholarship
Klein also said that Ware was not in any danger of losing his scholarship due to his injury and (2) it is not as bad of an injury as being depicted Dr. Robert Gotlin, director of Orthopedics and Sports Rehabilitation Program at Beth Israel Hospial in New York, says that Ware's injury is not as catastrophic as it appearsThe article is just an insane 'uproar' because it was possible that he could loose his scholarship. How outrageous that players that can play, have to play in order to have school paid for! Next thing you know, they'll want students on academic scholarships to maintain good grades!

In the second article, you fail to understand how insurance disputes and scholarship status don't mix. The NCAA has a catastrophic coverage policy for the really bad injuries. Outside of that, coverage comes via existing policies and coordination with school coverage. As in every coordination of benefits situation, one insurance will be denoted as the primary and the other as secondary and disputes often arise in who pays what, particularly if there is suspicion that the injury may have not occurred while playing sports for the university.

In that article, Hardrick was covered under his parent's policy (http://newsok.com/former-sooner-kyle-hardricks-mother-criticizes-ou-at-congressional-event/article/3619186) per their admission and was diagnosed with a quad injury for the second injury. Later, an MRI showed he had a torn ligament... was it from the same injury, or something else? The MRI was taken and billed to his insurance that the parents stated they had him covered with... but now don't want to pay? Thus the dispute.

Joseph Agnew didn't have serious injuries - he had nagging injuries. His lawsuit wasn't so much about getting his injuries covered but not realizing that if he decided he couldn't / didn't want to perform, he could lose his scholarship. He got what he wanted in that schools can now offer multiyear scholarships.

Seriously, next time put some effort into it instead of just a quick google search.

[mikey23545]

Reading is fundamental. As I stated, a serious injury will be covered - if its not serious, that's another story.

If you read the articles you linked, the first one clearly states (1) the player is not in jeopardy of losing his scholarship
and (2) it is not as bad of an injury as being depicted The article is just an insane 'uproar' because it was possible that he could loose his scholarship. How outrageous that players that can play, have to play in order to have school paid for! Next thing you know, they'll want students on academic scholarships to maintain good grades!

In the second article, you fail to understand how insurance disputes and scholarship status don't mix. The NCAA has a catastrophic coverage policy for the really bad injuries. Outside of that, coverage comes via existing policies and coordination with school coverage. As in every coordination of benefits situation, one insurance will be denoted as the primary and the other as secondary and disputes often arise in who pays what, particularly if there is suspicion that the injury may have not occurred while playing sports for the university.

In that article, Hardrick was covered under his parent's policy (http://newsok.com/former-sooner-kyle-hardricks-mother-criticizes-ou-at-congressional-event/article/3619186) per their admission and was diagnosed with a quad injury for the second injury. Later, an MRI showed he had a torn ligament... was it from the same injury, or something else? The MRI was taken and billed to his insurance that the parents stated they had him covered with... but now don't want to pay? Thus the dispute.

Joseph Agnew didn't have serious injuries - he had nagging injuries. His lawsuit wasn't so much about getting his injuries covered but not realizing that if he decided he couldn't / didn't want to perform, he could lose his scholarship. He got what he wanted in that schools can now offer multiyear scholarships.

Seriously, next time put some effort into it instead of just a quick google search.


You must understand, the search for victimhood must always be rapid and shallow, lest awkward facts be uncovered...

[Mr. Laz]

Can Northwestern just remove all scholarships from the players filing because they are now no longer considered students? They can now pay for everything they get. If these guys want to be treated like adults then go ahead and do so.

[mr. tegu]

Reading is fundamental. As I stated, a serious injury will be covered - if its not serious, that's another story.

If you read the articles you linked, the first one clearly states (1) the player is not in jeopardy of losing his scholarship
and (2) it is not as bad of an injury as being depicted The article is just an insane 'uproar' because it was possible that he could loose his scholarship. How outrageous that players that can play, have to play in order to have school paid for! Next thing you know, they'll want students on academic scholarships to maintain good grades!

In the second article, you fail to understand how insurance disputes and scholarship status don't mix. The NCAA has a catastrophic coverage policy for the really bad injuries. Outside of that, coverage comes via existing policies and coordination with school coverage. As in every coordination of benefits situation, one insurance will be denoted as the primary and the other as secondary and disputes often arise in who pays what, particularly if there is suspicion that the injury may have not occurred while playing sports for the university.

In that article, Hardrick was covered under his parent's policy (http://newsok.com/former-sooner-kyle-hardricks-mother-criticizes-ou-at-congressional-event/article/3619186) per their admission and was diagnosed with a quad injury for the second injury. Later, an MRI showed he had a torn ligament... was it from the same injury, or something else? The MRI was taken and billed to his insurance that the parents stated they had him covered with... but now don't want to pay? Thus the dispute.

Joseph Agnew didn't have serious injuries - he had nagging injuries. His lawsuit wasn't so much about getting his injuries covered but not realizing that if he decided he couldn't / didn't want to perform, he could lose his scholarship. He got what he wanted in that schools can now offer multiyear scholarships.

Seriously, next time put some effort into it instead of just a quick google search.

You are a moron. I didn't cite the Ware article that he lost anything. Only that it was possible he could have not had his medical expenses taken care of and his scholarship lost which is true and you acknowledged this yourself. But of course in a high profile case that wouldn't happen.

The Hardrick link was about his scholarship and tuition being lost you idiot and that they now had to pay the tuition. You said an injury still leaves school being paid, which isn't true. That is why I quoted the part dealing specifically with tuition. Same thing with the Agnew case. It was about his tuition no longer being covered, not medical things.

Your rambling doesn't refute anything I am saying. Students can have scholarships not renewed due to injury, which means no more free education. And even beyond that, they can have scholarships not renewed due to performance. In that scenario, what is truly more important? The athletics or the academics?

Edit - the idea you suggest that they should have to reach a certain level of injury to keep their scholarship is just plain stupid. Agnew had to pay his own tuition in his senior year.

[mr. tegu]

You must understand, the search for victimhood must always be rapid and shallow, lest awkward facts be uncovered...

LMAO

Go ahead and tell me I am wrong. I won't hold my breath.

[mr. tegu]

The whole point of this exercise is that some people act as though the free education is some guarantee and that they should all be grateful. It is not. And it can be taken away for injury or performance. That certainly doesn't sound like the NCAA values "student" over "athlete."

So again this applies. If receiving the free education is completely dependent upon the athletics, the ability to stay healthy, follow every rule, and maintain good productivity in competition, which of athletics and academics is truly the more important focus? (Hint: there is only one correct answer)

I don't know how actually paying money would work (it seems like a good idea on the surface), but I definitely see no drawback in at least guaranteeing they get tuition paid for for four years. Especially when they want to pretend the academics come first. If they get the athletic scholarship taken away, sure you could take away the free room, meals, etc. but not the tuition.

[Mi_chief_fan]

And here's another wrinkle...

Most (if not all) grants are done directly to the institution. The student never gets a "check", and in the case of institutional scholarships, money never actually changes hands at all.

If they become employees and get a paycheck, not only will that be taxable, but that income will be issued TO THE STUDENT. At that point, like any work-study job, it becomes the student's money to do with as the please.

What happens when 30+ athletes at a school suddenly default on their tuition payments because they decided to spend that money on something else?

Boosters will happen.