Restating the obvious, Dorsey learned from Ted Thompson

[ct]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/03/packers-prefer-compensatory-picks-over-unrestricted-free-agents/


Packers General Manager Ted Thompson has a formula for building his team, and he’s sticking with it.

Thompson believes in building through the draft, not free agency, and that includes acquiring more draft picks by declining to sign unrestricted free agents. In the NFL, teams that lose more in free agency than they acquire get compensatory picks, and the Packers’ moves in free agency this year indicate that they’re already thinking about acquiring compensatory picks for next year. The NFL doesn’t public the precise formula used to determine compensatory picks, but the simple version is that if the unrestricted free agents you lose are better, higher-paid players than the unrestricted free agents you sign, then the NFL will compensate you the following year with compensatory picks.

As the Green Bay Press-Gazette points out, even the one big name the Packers have signed this offseason, Julius Peppers, was a free agent because he was released by the Bears, not because his previous contract expired. That means he won’t count as an unrestricted free agent addition for the Packers for the purpose of determining their compensatory picks next year.

Last year the Packers lost two key players, receiver Greg Jennings and linebacker Erik Walden, as unrestricted free agents. And the Packers didn’t sign any unrestricted free agents last year. As a result, this year they’re getting an extra third-round pick and an extra fifth-round pick as compensatory selections.

This year the Packers have again not signed away any players whose previous contract expired, but they have lost four players, center Evan Dietrich-Smith, receiver James Jones, defensive lineman C.J. Wilson and offensive lineman Marshall Newhouse. That means the Packers will almost certainly do well when the compensatory picks are passed out a year from now.

Building through the draft and declining to overspend in free agency would be a smart strategy even if the NFL didn’t have a compensatory pick system to reward frugal teams. But when compensatory picks are added to the equation, it’s easy to see why Thompson declines to go after free agents. The Packers have been successful this way. It’s surprising more teams haven’t copied them.


May not be popular here but Dorsey is doing exactly the same thing Thompson and Ozzie Newsome are doing, stockpile draft picks and let UFAs get overpaid elsewhere.

[Messier]

People here seem to have a problem with Dorsey, they say because last offseason doesn't look like this offseason. "Where's the continuity?!?" personally, I think they're just mad because we're not active this year, not that there's no continuity.

But, I think it's very possible that last year, Reid had might have stepped in and said there are some things we NEED to get done. Get Alex Smith, and resign Bowe.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Well, many would like to see the Chiefs build through the draft, and I guess I'm one who agrees with that. It might not be pretty at first, but I'm willing to let this front office do their thing.

[htismaqe]

People here seem to have a problem with Dorsey, they say because last offseason doesn't look like this offseason. "Where's the continuity?!?" personally, I think they're just mad because we're not active this year, not that there's no continuity.

But, I think it's very possible that last year, Reid had might have stepped in and said there are some things we NEED to get done. Get Alex Smith, and resign Bowe.

You think wrong.

I'm mad because he says he's building through the draft while trading away draft picks.

If you don't see those two things as contradictory, you're just being stubborn because they absolutely are.

[TEX]

A "Whatever" story...When did Thompson trade TWO #2's for a player if building through the draft was the plan? If you do that, you go all in to win, especially with your core players being in their prime. Should have done more this off season to build on last year otherwise it was a waste, and so are the traded draft picks. Going to have to get a lot in the draft just to be where they were last year. My bet is they will take a step backwards and they didnt have to.

[Chief Gump]

If the team wins no one will bash him. If the team goes into a nose dive fans will be pissed. It is a very simple formula.

[the Talking Can]

because this plan works without Aaron Rodgers...jesus


it's the new 'patriot's way'...which was always 'thank fucking christ we lucked into Tom Brady'

[TEX]

You think wrong.

I'm mad because he says he's building through the draft while trading away draft picks.

If you don't see those two things as contradictory, you're just being stubborn because they absolutely are.

They are very easy to see. The only reason why some dont is because they don't want to...

[Deberg_1990]

If the team wins no one will bash him. If the team goes into a nose dive fans will be pissed. It is a very simple formula.

Exactly. The average fan doesn't obsess over the draft and picks like most around here.

If the team continues to win, nobody will care. Winning is all that matters to most.

[BigMeatballDave]

It was one trade. You're acting like he's made several trades.

They needed a QB. What would you have them do? I'm all for taking a QB in the first, but right now, last yrs QB class looks like ass.

[htismaqe]

It was one trade. You're acting like he's made several trades.

It was two critical picks. A good GM will get 2 solid starters out of 2nd round picks. He essentially traded two of them for Alex Smith.

They needed a QB. What would you have them do? I'm all for taking a QB in the first, but right now, last yrs QB class looks like ass.

They didn't HAVE to draft a QB. Again, a GOOD GM would find a way to get a good QB without mortgaging his own draft strategy.

For all of the talk about how "garbage" last year's draft was, this year's draft is one of the BEST in recent memory.

And we're missing a 2nd round pick.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

EVERYONE PANIC BECAUSE WE DIDNT WIN A SUPER BOWL LAST YEAR!

[Deberg_1990]

OMG! were missing a 2nd rounder! it could have been the next Kawika Mitchell or Junior Siavii! everyone panic!
Posted via Mobile Device

[htismaqe]

EVERYONE PANIC BECAUSE WE DIDNT WIN A SUPER BOWL LAST YEAR!

Said nobody ever.

[htismaqe]

OMG! were missing a 2nd rounder! it could have been the next Kawika Mitchell or Junior Siavii! everyone panic!
Posted via Mobile Device

If that's your straw man, might as well fire Dorsey now because his first round picks will be the next Ryan Sims or Sylvester Morris.

[KCwolf]

It was two critical picks. A good GM will get 2 solid starters out of 2nd round picks. He essentially traded two of them for Alex Smith.



They didn't HAVE to draft a QB. Again, a GOOD GM would find a way to get a good QB without mortgaging his own draft strategy.

For all of the talk about how "garbage" last year's draft was, this year's draft is one of the BEST in recent memory.

And we're missing a 2nd round pick.

The Horror!! .... You must be one of those guys. I for one THANK GOD Matt Cassell is not our starting QB and instead of saying "we could've had ?? @ QB" We do have Alex Smith and are not looking for a QB this year.

[Deberg_1990]

If that's your straw man, might as well fire Dorsey now because his first round picks will be the next Ryan Sims or Sylvester Morris.

Heh, no. I just don't think a 2nd rounder is as critical as you think it is. I'll take Alex Smiths play any day over the average 2nd rounder
Posted via Mobile Device

[keg in kc]

People here seem to have a problem with Dorsey, they say because last offseason doesn't look like this offseason. "Where's the continuity?!?" personally, I think they're just mad because we're not active this year, not that there's no continuity.
I think it's more about being upset because the chiefs haven't done exactly what people want. It happens every year, usually more with the draft. "I want (insert player name) but they didn't do that so I deem this (draft/free agency period/off-season) a complete failure."

I do it, too. I thought (and still think) Andy Reid was the wrong hire. I've been pretty vocal about that. They identified what they believed was the best available short and long term option at quarterback, which is something I should agree with philosophically, but I didn't like Alex Smith, so I wasn't happy there either. I was never really a dick about it but I wanted them to give Geno Smith a look. Which I believe they never did - not for a second. And if not him, then I would have gone Austin or Patterson. Fisher was a move I will never, ever like, short of the guy making the Hall.

Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way it is. That's the way fans are. We aren't rational no matter how much we try to cloak our arguments in logic and stats. We believe that we know how things should be done, better than anyone else, be it owners or gms or other fans, and that's every bit as true for those of us who think the chiefs should never be questioned and everybody who does is an idiot as is it for the ones who thinks they're incompetent clowns and anybody who approves is a homer.

At the end of the day this is mostly emotion and we're mostly throwing tantrums because we didn't get the toys we want, or we're bitching out people who disagree with us, or we're slapping people on the back and hailing them as geniuses if they say something we actually like.

Pretty simple really. It's the internet and that's how things are done.

[htismaqe]

The Horror!! .... You must be one of those guys. I for one THANK GOD Matt Cassell is not our starting QB and instead of saying "we could've had ?? @ QB" We do have Alex Smith and are not looking for a QB this year.

I like Alex Smith.

It's not my problem people aren't smart enough to separate the player from the moves it took to get him.

Alex Smith needs complimentary players. The team's ability to get said complementary players is hampered by the fact that they gave up two high picks to get him.

That's just simple logic.

[htismaqe]

Heh, no. I just don't think a 2nd rounder is as critical as you think it is. I'll take Alex Smiths play any day over the average 2nd rounder
Posted via Mobile Device

We're counting on Dorsey's draft picks to be better than "average".

Again, if those two picks are just expendable, Dorsey's reign here is DOOMED.

If he's even remotely good at his job, those picks are EXTREMELY valuable.

You can't have it both ways.

[htismaqe]

I think it's more about being upset because the chiefs haven't done exactly what people want. It happens every year, usually more with the draft. "I want (insert player name) but they didn't do that so I deem this (draft/free agency period/off-season) a complete failure."

I do it, too. I thought (and still think) Andy Reid was the wrong hire. I've been pretty vocal about that. They identified what they believed was the best available short and long term option at quarterback, which is something I should agree with philosophically, but I didn't like Alex Smith, so I wasn't happy there either.

I was never a dick about it but I wanted them to give Geno Smith a look. Which I believe they never did - not for a second. And if not him, then I would have gone Austin or Patterson. Fisher was a move I will never, ever like, short of the guy making the Hall.

Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way it is. That's the way fans are. We aren't rational no matter how much we try to cloak our arguments in logic and stats. We believe that we know how things should be done, better than anyone else, be it owners or gms or other fans, and that's every bit as true for those of us who think the chiefs should never be questioned and everybody who does is an idiot as is it for the ones who thinks they're incompetent clowns and anybody who approves is a homer.

At the end of the day this is mostly emotion and we're mostly throwing tantrums because we didn't get the toys we want, or we're bitching out people who disagree with us, or we're slapping people on the back and hailing them as geniuses if they say something we actually like.

Pretty simple really. It's the internet and that's how things are done.

I agree with a great bit of this, but for me it has NOTHING to do with what I wanted.

It has everything to do with the apparent contradictions in their moves.

People can ignore it all they want but trading two picks for a QB and then saying "we're building through the draft" don't comfortably co-exist.

That's just simple logic.

[O.city]

It was two critical picks. A good GM will get 2 solid starters out of 2nd round picks. He essentially traded two of them for Alex Smith.



They didn't HAVE to draft a QB. Again, a GOOD GM would find a way to get a good QB without mortgaging his own draft strategy.

For all of the talk about how "garbage" last year's draft was, this year's draft is one of the BEST in recent memory.

And we're missing a 2nd round pick.

Instead of two good starters, it appears they got a franchise quarterback.

[crossbow]

So which 2nd round QBs were the Chiefs going to draft last year that were as ready as Alex Smith?

[htismaqe]

Instead of two good starters, it appears they got a franchise quarterback.

How many franchise QBs win Super Bowls all by themselves while surrounded by garbage?

[htismaqe]

So which 2nd round QBs were the Chiefs going to draft last year that were as ready as Alex Smith?

ROFL

[philfree]

Heh, no. I just don't think a 2nd rounder is as critical as you think it is. I'll take Alex Smiths play any day over the average 2nd rounder
Posted via Mobile Device

For all I've read on this forum about QB being the most important position on the team I guess I didn't understand. To me two 2nd round picks for a winning, starting QB is a steal considering that a lot of people would have giving up a draft and a half for RGIII.

[O.city]

How many franchise QBs win Super Bowls all by themselves while surrounded by garbage?

Are there not other ways to surround said qb with players?

I mean, we haven't had the draft yet, we don't know how players from last year will further develop in this system, etc and on and on. It's just too soon to know.

Maybe Alex smith under Andy Reid can elevate the players aroun him instead if vice versa. Half of last years says yes, half says no.

It just seems ironic that the talk around here is always "give up anything for a franchise qb", now they did and it was one the HC everyone loved hiring because he's the "qb" whisperer really wanted, and people are pissed at the compensation.

[TEX]

Heh, no. I just don't think a 2nd rounder is as critical as you think it is. I'll take Alex Smiths play any day over the average 2nd rounder
Posted via Mobile Device

I would too if it were just 1 pick; however, we're talking about TWO #2's, and even then I dont have a problem IF after the Chiefs choose that course, they go "all in" and build on that decision rather than being contradictory with an oppisite approach this season, while saying its the correct approach to building a team. IF true, then trading away TWO #2's was wrong. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a player. It has everything to do with them not being consistent to building the team in back to back seasons.

[BlackHelicopters]

Instead of two good starters, it appears they got a franchise quarterback.

Whatever a "franchise"QB is , Alex Smith isn't

[keg in kc]

I agree with a great bit of this, but for me it has NOTHING to do with what I wanted.

It has everything to do with the apparent contradictions in their moves.

People can ignore it all they want but trading two picks for a QB and then saying "we're building through the draft" don't comfortably co-exist.

That's just simple logic.As Obi-wan said, it's really all about your point of view. I think it would be pretty simple to adjust that so-called logic - let's call it rationalize - and look at that move as their way of acquiring a long term solution at quarterback. He's their franchise quarterback, for all intents and purposes, and the only real difference from a rookie is that they skipped the 3 or 4 (or more) years of ups and downs that it takes them to develop.

So in one sense it is an immediate move, but on the other hand it's also still perhaps a long term investment made with those picks...

What it's not is Joe Montana on his last legs for a year or two. And while I've often said I'd gone with a guy like Jason Campbell, let's face it, that would've been a short term move, too. Whereas I think it's safe to say that Alex Smith may well be here as long as, if not longer than, most of the players drafted last year, including anyone they might have taken in the second.

I'm not saying I agree with it or like it or even that I look at it that way. I don't. What I am saying is that our brand of simple logic isn't necessarily the only one out there, and sometimes it can be beneficial to consider different angles, or recognize that our own may be skewed or biased.

At least, I know mine is, when it comes to most of the things this damned franchise does.

[RunKC]

JFC htismage. Please tell the class in exact detail who Dorsey should have pulled in to QB this team. I guarantee you they aren't as good as Alex Smith was last year.

Alex Smith>2013 2nd rd pick

[htismaqe]

It just seems ironic that the talk around here is always "give up anything for a franchise qb", now they did and it was one the HC everyone loved hiring because he's the "qb" whisperer really wanted, and people are pissed at the compensation.

You're completely not understanding the argument.

[htismaqe]

JFC htismage. Please tell the class in exact detail who Dorsey should have pulled in to QB this team. I guarantee you they aren't as good as Alex Smith was last year.

Alex Smith>2013 2nd rd pick

You don't understand the argument either.

[RunKC]

You don't understand the argument either.

I understand it perfectly. You're crying bc we got rid of draft picks instead of using them bc Dorsey said he drafts to win.

Now since you don't like him trading that pick, I'd like to hear what QB he should have brought in without using that draft pick.

[htismaqe]

As Obi-wan said, it's really all about your point of view. I think it would be pretty simple to adjust that so-called logic - let's call it rationalize - and look at that move as their way of acquiring a long term solution at quarterback. He's their franchise quarterback, for all intents and purposes, and the only real difference from a rookie is that they skipped the 3 or 4 (or more) years of ups and downs that it takes them to develop.

So in one sense it is an immediate move, but on the other hand it's also still perhaps a long term investment made with those picks...

What it's not is Joe Montana on his last legs for a year or two. And while I've often said I'd gone with a guy like Jason Campbell, let's face it, that would've been a short term move, too. Whereas I think it's safe to say that Alex Smith may well be here as long as, if not longer than, most of the players drafted last year, including anyone they might have taken in the second.

I'm not saying I agree with it or like it or even that I look at it that way. I don't. What I am saying is that our brand of simple logic isn't necessarily the only one out there, and sometimes it can be beneficial to consider different angles, or recognize that our own may be skewed or biased.

At least, I know mine is, when it comes to most of the things this damned franchise does.

If Alex Smith gets a +$100M contract or worse, plays the 2014 season without an extension, it's all out the window.

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

I think it's more about being upset because the chiefs haven't done exactly what people want. It happens every year, usually more with the draft. "I want (insert player name) but they didn't do that so I deem this (draft/free agency period/off-season) a complete failure."

I do it, too. I thought (and still think) Andy Reid was the wrong hire. I've been pretty vocal about that. They identified what they believed was the best available short and long term option at quarterback, which is something I should agree with philosophically, but I didn't like Alex Smith, so I wasn't happy there either. I was never really a dick about it but I wanted them to give Geno Smith a look. Which I believe they never did - not for a second. And if not him, then I would have gone Austin or Patterson. Fisher was a move I will never, ever like, short of the guy making the Hall.

Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way it is. That's the way fans are. We aren't rational no matter how much we try to cloak our arguments in logic and stats. We believe that we know how things should be done, better than anyone else, be it owners or gms or other fans, and that's every bit as true for those of us who think the chiefs should never be questioned and everybody who does is an idiot as is it for the ones who thinks they're incompetent clowns and anybody who approves is a homer.

At the end of the day this is mostly emotion and we're mostly throwing tantrums because we didn't get the toys we want, or we're bitching out people who disagree with us, or we're slapping people on the back and hailing them as geniuses if they say something we actually like.

Pretty simple really. It's the internet and that's how things are done.

Wow, keg. Just wow.

This is the greatest post in the history of Chiefs Planet. Absolutely brilliant!!! I know I am rarely serious and always clowning around, but not this time.

Brutality meets honesty inside a person big enough to type it outloud.

Beautiful.

Dinny

[htismaqe]

I understand it perfectly. You're crying bc we got rid of draft picks instead of using them bc Dorsey said he drafts to win.

Now since you don't like him trading that pick, I'd like to hear what QB he should have brought in without using that draft pick.

ROFL

I'm not crying at all. There's absolutely zero emotion in this for me. So every time you bring it up I laugh at how stupid it is.

And it's NOT ABOUT WHAT QB they should have brought in.

It's about what they should be doing to help make Alex Smith a successful QB.

You don't understand the argument at all, and it's obvious.

[philfree]

You don't understand the argument either.

What were the big "win now" moves they made last year?

[Frosty]

I agree with a great bit of this, but for me it has NOTHING to do with what I wanted.

It has everything to do with the apparent contradictions in their moves.

People can ignore it all they want but trading two picks for a QB and then saying "we're building through the draft" don't comfortably co-exist.

That's just simple logic.

I get what you saying but you have to look at it from Clark's pov. After 2012, the stadium was nearly empty, the few fans that showed up were in black and fans were flying banners. While some of us would have preferred a rookie QB and a young, up and coming coach, that wasn't going to fly with the average fan out there.

Instead, Clark went with a big name coach who made moves to shore up the roster any way possible. It worked too - they won 9 in a row and filled up Arrowhead. Fans (the average fan) were excited again.

It is what it is. It may be that now that fans are back in Arrowhead that the strategy changes on how to build the team from here on out, which is why there is an apparent change in emphasis from FA/trades to the draft.

[htismaqe]

I get what you saying but you have to look at it from Clark's pov. After 2012, the stadium was nearly empty, the few fans that showed up were in black and fans were flying banners. While some of us would have preferred a rookie QB and a young, up and coming coach, that wasn't going to fly with the average fan out there.

Instead, Clark went with a big name coach who made moves to shore up the roster any way possible. It worked too - they won 9 in a row and filled up Arrowhead. Fans (the average fan) were excited again.

It is what it is. It may be that now that fans are back in Arrowhead that the strategy changes on how to build the team from here on out, which is why there is an apparent change in emphasis from FA/trades to the draft.

So they weren't following the Ted Thompson approach then.

People are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

[Messier]

ROFL

I've started seeing this as your, I have no response answer. It make life easier that way.

[htismaqe]

What were the big "win now" moves they made last year?

Alex Smith.

:facepalm:

[htismaqe]

I've started seeing this as your, I have no response answer. It make life easier that way.

How many times do I have to type the obvious before I give up?

Some of you are too stubborn and/or stupid to acknowledge reality, so why would I continue to waste my time?

[BigMeatballDave]

You're completely not understanding the argument.

I understand your argument, but it's not as big a deal as your making it. It was one move, and they're missing one pick today. Sometimes you have to deviate from your plan to satisfy your overall goal.
Bottom line: The Chiefs picked the wrong year to completely suck ass.

This franchise is snake bit.

[htismaqe]

I understand your argument, but it's not as big a deal as your making it. It was one move, and they're missing one pick today. Sometimes you have to deviate from your plan to satisfy your overall goal.
Bottom line: The Chiefs picked the wrong year to completely suck ass.

This franchise is snake bit.

Somebody gets it. :thumb:

[Marcellus]

I think it's more about being upset because the chiefs haven't done exactly what people want. It happens every year, usually more with the draft. "I want (insert player name) but they didn't do that so I deem this (draft/free agency period/off-season) a complete failure."

I do it, too. I thought (and still think) Andy Reid was the wrong hire. I've been pretty vocal about that. They identified what they believed was the best available short and long term option at quarterback, which is something I should agree with philosophically, but I didn't like Alex Smith, so I wasn't happy there either. I was never really a dick about it but I wanted them to give Geno Smith a look. Which I believe they never did - not for a second. And if not him, then I would have gone Austin or Patterson. Fisher was a move I will never, ever like, short of the guy making the Hall.

Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way it is. That's the way fans are. We aren't rational no matter how much we try to cloak our arguments in logic and stats. We believe that we know how things should be done, better than anyone else, be it owners or gms or other fans, and that's every bit as true for those of us who think the chiefs should never be questioned and everybody who does is an idiot as is it for the ones who thinks they're incompetent clowns and anybody who approves is a homer.

At the end of the day this is mostly emotion and we're mostly throwing tantrums because we didn't get the toys we want, or we're bitching out people who disagree with us, or we're slapping people on the back and hailing them as geniuses if they say something we actually like.

Pretty simple really. It's the internet and that's how things are done.

/CP

[HemiEd]

I would too if it were just 1 pick; however, we're talking about TWO #2's, and even then I dont have a problem IF after the Chiefs choose that course, they go "all in" and build on that decision rather than being contradictory with an oppisite approach this season, while saying its the correct approach to building a team. IF true, then trading away TWO #2's was wrong. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a player. It has everything to do with them not being consistent to building the team in back to back seasons.

What they have done has been consistent with all three GMs the last 30+ years.
IMO, anyone that doesn't think it is an ownership thing, has their head buried the sand.

The second round pick given up for Cassel and the first one for Alex Smith were also very high second round picks, unlike this years pick.

[Frosty]

So they weren't following the Ted Thompson approach then.

People are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Like BCD said - sometimes you have to deviate from the plan. It was desperate times for ownership.

[Messier]

Somebody gets it. :thumb:

What? So you DO understand why they traded for Smith?

[htismaqe]

Like BCD said - sometimes you have to deviate from the plan. It was desperate times for ownership.

Of course.

[htismaqe]

What? So you DO understand why they traded for Smith?

Yep, I absolutely do. Said as much several times. Have even said I think it was a good move.

[Messier]

How many times do I have to type the obvious before I give up?

Some of you are too stubborn and/or stupid to acknowledge reality, so why would I continue to waste my time?

NO. You keep frickin changing your story. You don't get to keep saying people don't understand you when your point is a bad one.

[htismaqe]

NO. You keep frickin changing your story. You don't get to keep saying people don't understand you when your point is a bad one.

Haven't changed my story one time. Sorry.

[Messier]

Alex Smith.

:facepalm:

I guess I don't understand, when you say you like the move and make a post like this.

[Frosty]

So they weren't following the Ted Thompson approach then.

People are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

BTW, I really don't buy the "Dorsey makes all the decisions" thing. I think Reid has a lot more say in personnel than they keep saying. It seems that some of the moves so far, especially last season, have been more "Reid Eagles" than "Green Bay Packers". I don't think you can point at Ted Thompson articles like this and say "that's what the Chiefs are going to do".

[keg in kc]

I like Alex Smith.

It's not my problem people aren't smart enough to separate the player from the moves it took to get him.

Alex Smith needs complimentary players. The team's ability to get said complementary players is hampered by the fact that they gave up two high picks to get him.

That's just simple logic.I had a thought just occur to me, one that I'm a little surprised I've never had before.

(And let me first reiterate that I hate that we gave up two picks for Smith. That's always been my biggest issue with it...)

In all of the various and sundry discussions about drafting a QB on this board over the years, I can't count the number of times I've seen people say they would do "whatever it takes" to acquire a franchise quarterback. Just as an example, I've seen the Redskins lauded by certain proponents of a first round QB (myself included) for the RGIII move, because they, basically, had the balls to attempt something that this franchise is clearly not interested in (if not outright terrified of...) doing.

So let's say, as a theoretical exercise, that we're in the draft in may, round about pick 14, and the Chiefs see a quarterback that they really like on the board. Somebody they like so much that they're willing to offer the Bears a couple of picks to take their spot. Carr, Manziel, whoever. Doesn't really matter what the name is. They identify their guy, the guy they think can take over in, let's say 2018, Aaron Rodgers 4 years on the bench style, but they're sure he won't slip past the 14th pick.

Should they make that move? Because, you know, they'd be giving up more than one pick, and potentially crippling the franchise since they wouldn't have as many picks to use to put around him...

Basically, is the problem with the Alex Smith trade that we lost a 2nd round pick this year (let's consider him the 2013 second rounder - we couldn't have picked up both him and another player with that pick last year, so that pick doesn't change anything around him....), or is the problem that the trade was for Alex Smith himself?

If that makes any sense....

Bascially, if a quarterback is a position worth risking multiple picks for, as I think almost all of us in favor of a 1st round QB have said at times over the years, then why is the loss of a 2014 2nd round pick for Smith such an issue? Are we in 'trying to have our cake and eat it, too" territory here?

[philfree]

Alex Smith.

:facepalm:


Brilliant reply. Besides trading for Smith who were our big time win now FA moves? Shaun Smith? Besides the Alex Smith trade I don't see a big difference from last year to this year. Perhaps they aren't meeting our expectations because we think we have a chance and we want them to push all their chips to the middle of the table.

[htismaqe]

I guess I don't understand, when you say you like the move and make a post like this.

His question was "What were the big "win now" moves they made last year?"

The answer is, obviously, Alex Smith.

The defense was largely the same cast of characters, so was the offense.

So who was responsible for a NINE WIN swing?

That's the definition of "win now".

[htismaqe]

BTW, I really don't buy the "Dorsey makes all the decisions" thing. I think Reid has a lot more say in personnel than they keep saying. It seems that some of the moves so far, especially last season, have been more "Reid Eagles" than "Green Bay Packers". I don't think you can point at Ted Thompson articles like this and say "that's what the Chiefs are going to do".

I would tend to agree.

These types of articles are mostly intended to make people feel better about what the Chiefs are doing right now.

[htismaqe]

Brilliant reply. Besides trading for Smith who were our big time win now FA moves? Shaun Smith? Besides the Alex Smith trade I don't see a big difference from last year to this year. Perhaps they aren't meeting our expectations because we think we have a chance and we want them to push all their chips to the middle of the table.

I don't really care which approach they use. I would like to see them pick one and commit to it.

[keg in kc]

So who was responsible for a NINE WIN swingMy answer: the schedule, the absence of Romeo Crennel and staff, and a 180-degree shift in on-field luck from 2012 (turnovers going our way, primarily) much of which I believe can be attributed to the loss of Cassel and/or the addition of Smith.

[htismaqe]

My answer: the schedule, the absence of Romeo Crennel and staff, and a 180-degree shift in on-field luck from 2012 (turnovers going our way, primarily) much of which I believe can be attributed to the loss of Cassel and/or the addition of Smith.

See, this looks like someone downplaying Smith's contribution to me.

[SeeingRed]

Well, many would like to see the Chiefs build through the draft, and I guess I'm one who agrees with that. It might not be pretty at first, but I'm willing to let this front office do their thing.

I agree with this....its not exciting for fans but i like and respect the approach.

[RealSNR]

I think it's more about being upset because the chiefs haven't done exactly what people want. It happens every year, usually more with the draft. "I want (insert player name) but they didn't do that so I deem this (draft/free agency period/off-season) a complete failure."

I do it, too. I thought (and still think) Andy Reid was the wrong hire. I've been pretty vocal about that. They identified what they believed was the best available short and long term option at quarterback, which is something I should agree with philosophically, but I didn't like Alex Smith, so I wasn't happy there either. I was never really a dick about it but I wanted them to give Geno Smith a look. Which I believe they never did - not for a second. And if not him, then I would have gone Austin or Patterson. Fisher was a move I will never, ever like, short of the guy making the Hall.

Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way it is. That's the way fans are. We aren't rational no matter how much we try to cloak our arguments in logic and stats. We believe that we know how things should be done, better than anyone else, be it owners or gms or other fans, and that's every bit as true for those of us who think the chiefs should never be questioned and everybody who does is an idiot as is it for the ones who thinks they're incompetent clowns and anybody who approves is a homer.

At the end of the day this is mostly emotion and we're mostly throwing tantrums because we didn't get the toys we want, or we're bitching out people who disagree with us, or we're slapping people on the back and hailing them as geniuses if they say something we actually like.

Pretty simple really. It's the internet and that's how things are done.

Wow, keg. Just wow.

This is the greatest post in the history of Chiefs Planet. Absolutely brilliant!!! I know I am rarely serious and always clowning around, but not this time.

Brutality meets honesty inside a person big enough to type it outloud.

Beautiful.

Dinny
Oh, the irony...

[keg in kc]

See, this looks like someone downplaying Smith's contribution to me.I actually left the most important part off the list: the defense.

Which I'm sure sounds crazy now, but the defense was essentially the main reason they started 9-0, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the team struggled to win the second that the defense began having issues.

I do think Smith was a dramatic improvement from Cassel, but I also believe that his contribution was more about what he didn't do (namely turn the ball over) that it was about what he did. Which is important, no question.

[keg in kc]

Oh, the irony...LMAO

[Simply Red]

a team should do both - FA and Draft for building a roster, plain and simple - this shouldn't be such a mental hurdle for these execs - it's simple mathematics.

[htismaqe]

a team should do both - FA and Draft for building a roster, plain and simple - this shouldn't be such a mental hurdle for these execs - it's simple mathematics.

:clap:

[RealSNR]

LMAO

I'm also pretty sure he called you fat when he said, "Brutality meets honesty inside a person big enough to type it outloud."

[htismaqe]

I'm also pretty sure he called you fat when he said, "Brutality meets honesty inside a person big enough to type it outloud."

ROFL

[Messier]

a team should do both - FA and Draft for building a roster, plain and simple - this shouldn't be such a mental hurdle for these execs - it's simple mathematics.

Absolutely.

[philfree]

I don't really care which approach they use. I would like to see them pick one and commit to it.



I don't think it's that much different but as a fan I was hoping for a more aggressive approach this year. It ain't happening. Last year they needed a QB and they did what they had to do to get the best one available. IMO that wasn't done with a win now mentality as much as we just had to get a QB.

[htismaqe]

IMO that wasn't done with a win now mentality as much as we just had to get a QB.

6 of one, 1 half dozen of the other. Either way, you're talking about a short term process.

Of course, Alex Smith could very well be (IMO most likely is) part of the long-term solution as well.

That's not bad. At all. But it's also absolutely NOT what Ted Thompson would do.

[keg in kc]

I'm also pretty sure he called you fat when he said, "Brutality meets honesty inside a person big enough to type it outloud."Well, I am fat, so I can't fault him there.

[planetdoc]

Green Bay and KC are both small market teams.

Building a roster through the draft is a wise strategy since they cant compete in recruiting FA compared to a larger market team (which can offer incentives outside the confines of the salary cap).

[htismaqe]

Green Bay and KC are both small market teams.

Building a roster through the draft is a wise strategy since they cant compete in recruiting FA compared to a larger market team (which can offer incentives outside the confines of the salary cap).

There's truth here as well.

[keg in kc]

That's not bad. At all. But it's also absolutely NOT what Ted Thompson would do.I think it might be difficult to ascertain exactly what Thompson would do in a situation similar to what Dorsey faced here last year, since Brett Favre was still behind center when Thompson took over.

[htismaqe]

I think it might be difficult to ascertain exactly what Thompson would do in a situation similar to what Dorsey faced here last year, since Brett Favre was still behind center when Thompson took over.

Fair.

[htismaqe]

I'm not going to pretend to know what Thompson would do but was he them one who traded for Favre?

No, he came in after that.

[philfree]

No, he came in after that.

Deleted.

[RunKC]

ROFL

I'm not crying at all. There's absolutely zero emotion in this for me. So every time you bring it up I laugh at how stupid it is.

And it's NOT ABOUT WHAT QB they should have brought in.

It's about what they should be doing to help make Alex Smith a successful QB.

You don't understand the argument at all, and it's obvious.

Let's wait until after the draft to discuss this. They are drafting. WR. Also interested to see what Kelce does this year

[htismaqe]

Let's wait until after the draft to discuss this. They are drafting. WR. Also interested to see what Kelce does this year

I would love to share your confidence. It's just not something I can muster after following this team for 30 years.

I could easily see them taking a defensive lineman or pass rusher (I'd probably be ok with that) or a guard (not ok with this) over a WR.

As for Kelce, I'll be interested to see if he even gets on the field. Anything he provides after that will be a total surprise.

[keg in kc]

I just don't see them drafting a WR, as much as I wish that was what they would do. Everything screams 'lineman' to me, on one side of the ball or the other.

[RunKC]

I would love to share your confidence. It's just not something I can muster after following this team for 30 years.

I could easily see them taking a defensive lineman or pass rusher (I'd probably be ok with that) or a guard (not ok with this) over a WR.

As for Kelce, I'll be interested to see if he even gets on the field. Anything he provides after that will be a total surprise.

It's not really confidence. It's just waiting to see if they do something this year. If not than I will point my finger at Dorsey. Until then gotta see how it plays out first.

[Deberg_1990]

I would love to share your confidence. It's just not something I can muster after following this team for 30 years.

I could easily see them taking a defensive lineman or pass rusher (I'd probably be ok with that) or a guard (not ok with this) over a WR.

As for Kelce, I'll be interested to see if he even gets on the field. Anything he provides after that will be a total surprise.

Maybe they go TE with the 1st pick

[htismaqe]

Maybe they go TE with the 1st pick

Nobody here would be happier than me if that happened. I'm a firm believer we need a matchup nightmare at TE.

[keg in kc]

They really need Kelce to come through. They're approaching overdraft territory with tight end, drafted 3 in the last 5 years, 2 of those in the 3rd round. Missing that much hurts you elsewhere on the roster.

[The Franchise]

Nobody here would be happier than me if that happened. I'm a firm believer we need a matchup nightmare at TE.

If they go TE early and Kelce stays healthy/is a positive at TC.....then they need to fucking cut Fasano as quick as possible. Dude is making too much to be an insurance policy.

[keg in kc]

If they go TE early and Kelce stays healthy/is a positive at TC.....then they need to ****ing cut Fasano as quick as possible. Dude is making too much to be an insurance policy.Not to mention an insurance policy who couldn't get on the field himself.

[htismaqe]

If they go TE early and Kelce stays healthy/is a positive at TC.....then they need to fucking cut Fasano as quick as possible. Dude is making too much to be an insurance policy.

I don't think they'll take a TE. Reid's offense seems to rely more on the TE to be a solid, unspectacular type rather than a centerpiece of the offense. A guy that can block and surprise defenses deep down the seams. Travis Kelce can be just that kind of guy if he comes back from his surgery ok.

The sad thing is, we've seen what Alex Smith can do with a centerpiece-type TE, so I'd love it if they didn't stop with Kelce.

[Deberg_1990]

Nobody here would be happier than me if that happened. I'm a firm believer we need a matchup nightmare at TE.

Considering where we are drafting, BPA at position of need is fine with me.

[The Franchise]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Flowers is cut or traded after June 1st.....especially if they think they'll be fine with Smith and Cooper on the outside with Parker in the slot....or if they draft a CB high.

[htismaqe]

I love getting neg reps from people that don't even have the balls to participate in the discussion.

ROFL

[buddha]

Reid knows what to do with a top flight TE. He has never had one as a HC, which probably isn't his fault. There aren't that many in existence. If we could find the next Jimmy Graham or Gronk, I'm sure Reid would work that weapon into his WC offense.

I'm not that concerned about position...I just want a high-level impact player. The Chiefs, like most teams, have a few of those guys, but could always use more.

[buddha]

Actually, if you'd stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, htismage, the whole discussion would be far less frustrating for everybody.

You want Alex Smith, but you don't want to give up two 2nds for him? It's a child's world where we get everything we want. That was the price...I'm sure the Chiefs tried to get him for less. All in all, it was a great investment, bordering on a "steal."

[OnTheWarpath15]

Amazing how many people STILL don't get the point Parker is trying to make.

[htismaqe]

Actually, if you'd stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, htismage, the whole discussion would be far less frustrating for everybody.

You want Alex Smith, but you don't want to give up two 2nds for him? It's a child's world where we get everything we want. That was the price...I'm sure the Chiefs tried to get him for less. All in all, it was a great investment, bordering on a "steal."

ROFL

You don't even begin to understand what I'm saying. It has nothing at all to do with what I WANT.

[The Franchise]

Actually, if you'd stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, htismage, the whole discussion would be far less frustrating for everybody.

You want Alex Smith, but you don't want to give up two 2nds for him? It's a child's world where we get everything we want. That was the price...I'm sure the Chiefs tried to get him for less. All in all, it was a great investment, bordering on a "steal."

:facepalm:

How dare anyone like the player but not be happy with what we had to give up for him.

So if we traded two 1st round picks for Jimmy Graham....you can only be happy with both or hate both? Because I'd love having Jimmy Graham but furious that we gave up two 1st round picks to get him.

[buddha]

Bullshit. You stated earlier in the thread that it's not what YOU want. Go back and read your own words.

Conceptually, it's quite simple to understand your points. It's just that you're inconsistent in expressing them.

[htismaqe]

:facepalm:

How dare anyone like the player but not be happy with what we had to give up for him.

So if we traded two 1st round picks for Jimmy Graham....you can only be happy with both or hate both? Because I'd love having Jimmy Graham but furious that we gave up two 1st round picks to get him.

Welcome to Chiefsplanet. If it's not black, it's white. Middle ground is not allowed. If you're going to throw out the bathwater, you HAVE to throw out the baby.

[htismaqe]

ROFL

Somebody has a reading comprehension problem.

[buddha]

:facepalm:

How dare anyone like the player but not be happy with what we had to give up for him.

So if we traded two 1st round picks for Jimmy Graham....you can only be happy with both or hate both? Because I'd love having Jimmy Graham but furious that we gave up two 1st round picks to get him.

A really nice sports car costs $100K...you buy it, you drive it and you love it. You are really going to grudge about the price you paid for it? I wouldn't. Life's too short. The same goes for players. There's a price to get certain players. :shake: That's just a reality of doing business.

[buddha]

ROFL

Somebody has a reading comprehension problem.

Based on the responses in this thread, somebody has a problem writing clearly.

[htismaqe]

Based on the responses in this thread, somebody has a problem writing clearly.

Why don't you go ahead and show me then, big guy.

Instead of wasting time sending me neg reps (when you're not man enough to even have yours on ROFL), spend some time pointing out the posts where I've contradicted myself.

I've consistently said that this has nothing to do with what I wanted.

Stop being such a fucking pussy and prove it.

[The Franchise]

A really nice sports car costs $100K...you buy it, you drive it and you love it. You are really going to grudge about the price you paid for it? I wouldn't. Life's too short. The same goes for players. There's a price to get certain players. :shake: That's just a reality of doing business.

I can love the sports car and absolutely hate the $100k price tag. That's my fucking right. I can like Alex Smith and hate the fact that they gave two 2nd round picks. Once again...IT'S MY FUCKING RIGHT.

[htismaqe]

I'm officially done fighting with Messier and Marcellus.

While we may never agree, at least they're honorable. At least it's all above board and honest.

[buddha]

I can love the sports car and absolutely hate the $100k price tag. That's my ****ing right. I can like Alex Smith and hate the fact that they gave two 2nd round picks. Once again...IT'S MY ****ING RIGHT.

Fine...it's your right to feel how you feel. That wasn't my point. There's a price of doing business and if your team is going to have a better than average QB, it's going to take a premium to acquire that guy.

Personally, I don't think two 2nds is too high for a QB of Alex's ability.

[The Franchise]

Fine...it's your right to feel how you feel. That wasn't my point. There's a price of doing business and if your team is going to have a better than average QB, it's going to take a premium to acquire that guy.

Personally, I don't think two 2nds is too high for a QB of Alex's ability.

That's fine....but other people do. They have a right to state their opinion just like people who love the trade do. It's not "talking out of both sides of their mouth".....it's stating their opinion and bitching about them only makes you look like an idiot.

[buddha]

That's fine....but other people do. They have a right to state their opinion just like people who love the trade do. It's not "talking out of both sides of their mouth".....it's stating their opinion and bitching about them only makes you look like an idiot.

We'll agree to disagree on that point. :thumb:

[htismaqe]

We'll agree to disagree on that point. :thumb:

So you're not going to be a man and prove that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth?

Gonna bow out before anybody realizes that you got fucking owned?

[temper11]

You think wrong.

I'm mad because he says he's building through the draft while trading away draft picks.

If you don't see those two things as contradictory, you're just being stubborn because they absolutely are.

HT, I'll agree with you if next year he goes back to throwing money all over the place in FA and then the year after that, "builds through the draft" again. This is the second offseason he has been with the Chiefs. Last year was about doing what needed to be done just to turn a capsized ship over and bail out the water. Now that that ship is floating again he is going to start building his "crew" through the draft and cheap FA's the way that he likes to develop his team.

The first year was an anomaly - he said it was going to be at the time and has said it was several times since then. I think he deserves a bit more than 2 off seasons before we can say that he isn't consistent - 3 at the very least.

[buddha]

So you're not going to be a man and prove that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth?

Gonna bow out before anybody realizes that you got ****ing owned?

What a child you are...seriously.

[htismaqe]

What a child you are...seriously.

I haven't sent a single neg rep in over 8 years.

Every argument I have is right here, in the open.

Prove me wrong or shut up.

You started this. Now be a man and either finish it or admit that you were wrong.

[htismaqe]

Might as well let everyone know that you immediately started posting in this thread after I mentioned the negative rep.

Gotta save face after acting like a fucking weasel, right?

[The Franchise]

We'll agree to disagree on that point. :thumb:

There's nothing to agree to disagree on. People have a right to their opinions. We're on a fucking message board for fucks sake. You have a right to like both aspects....just as htismaqe has a right to like the player but hate what we gave up. He's not "talking out of both sides of his mouth" like you stated. You just look like an idiot for getting pissed at his opinion.

[htismaqe]

There's nothing to agree to disagree on. People have a right to their opinions. We're on a fucking message board for fucks sake. You have a right to like both aspects....just as htismaqe has a right to like the player but hate what we gave up. He's not "talking out of both sides of his mouth" like you stated. You just look like an idiot for getting pissed at his opinion.

I don't even "hate" what they gave up for him.

I think it's EXTREMELY disingenuous to try and sell people on the "What would Ted Thompson do" angle when Ted Thompson never traded 2 high draft picks for his QB.

I'm not the one talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm not the one saying they HAD to trade for Alex Smith (for any number of reason last year) but that the long-term approach is to build through the draft.

This is not, and never has been since the day the season ended, about what I wanted. I wanted Geno Smith. I was wrong. I didn't want Alex Smith. I again, was wrong.

This isn't about being mad or being unhappy about what the Chiefs are (or aren't) doing. This isn't about them following (or not following) the blueprint that I want the team to take.

This is about the CLEAR and OBVIOUS differences between what the Chiefs did last year and what they're doing this year. People that explain them away as somehow complimentary are simply choosing to ignore reality.

[Messier]

I just don't see them drafting a WR, as much as I wish that was what they would do. Everything screams 'lineman' to me, on one side of the ball or the other.

Could be. We do know they see WR as a need, based on the attempt at Sanders. I think it's very possible when that didn't work out, they'll look to the draft.

[htismaqe]

Could be. We do know they see WR as a need, based on the attempt at Sanders. I think it's very possible when that didn't work out, they'll look to the draft.

Here's the real kicker.

Philly struggled to acquire WRs almost the entire time Reid was there, up until after their SB loss.

Dorsey was part of a front office that seemingly never had any trouble finding WRs.

I wonder how that dichotomy plays out?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Here's the real kicker.

Philly struggled to acquire WRs almost the entire time Reid was there, up until after their SB loss.

Dorsey was part of a front office that seemingly never had any trouble finding WRs.

I wonder how that dichotomy plays out?

And they both struggled at the OL position.

[htismaqe]

And they both struggled at the OL position.

Both of them have good track records with QBs, though, and that's the most important piece, IMO.

[philfree]

I don't even "hate" what they gave up for him.

I think it's EXTREMELY disingenuous to try and sell people on the "What would Ted Thompson do" angle when Ted Thompson never traded 2 high draft picks for his QB.

I'm not the one talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm not the one saying they HAD to trade for Alex Smith (for any number of reason last year) but that the long-term approach is to build through the draft.

This is not, and never has been since the day the season ended, about what I wanted. I wanted Geno Smith. I was wrong. I didn't want Alex Smith. I again, was wrong.

This isn't about being mad or being unhappy about what the Chiefs are (or aren't) doing. This isn't about them following (or not following) the blueprint that I want the team to take.

This is about the CLEAR and OBVIOUS differences between what the Chiefs did last year and what they're doing this year. People that explain them away as somehow complimentary are simply choosing to ignore reality.

Last year was the first year of a new regime. They went and got a QB and then signed some middle of the road FAs in hopes of turning things around in their first year. Some people have decided that meant we are in a "win now" mode and that we would go after more FAs and not just middle of the road guys. People actually thinking the Chiefs were going to go all in in year two of the new regime and sign more FAs got a reality check. So the clear and obvious difference this year is we didn't need to trade for a QB and the FAs we've talked with signed elsewhere. It's not really that much different at all. I'm more disturbed that we haven't signed Houston, Berry and Alex Smith to new deals and not having restructured a guy like Flowers. I expected that and then for us to look at middle of the road FAs or FA steals like we got with Schwartz last year. It does suck watching the Donks load up while we stay conservative though.

[htismaqe]

Last year was the first year of a new regime. They went and got a QB and then signed some middle of the road FAs in hopes of turning things around in their first year. Some people have decided that meant we are in a "win now" mode and that we would go after more FAs and not just middle of the road guys. People actually thinking the Chiefs were going to go all in in year two of the new regime and sign more FAs got a reality check. So the clear and obvious difference this year is we didn't need to trade for a QB and the FAs we've talked with signed elsewhere. It's not really that much different at all. I'm more disturbed that we haven't signed Houston, Berry and Alex Smith to new deals and not having restructured a guy like Flowers. I expected that and then for us to look at middle of the road FAs or FA steals like we got with Schwartz last year. It does suck watching the Donks load up while we stay conservative though.

There's a little wrench in the gears though, in the form of those 2 picks given up for Alex Smith. I don't care if you spent those 2 picks on a 27-year old John Elway, you still have to surround him with talent. If you're not going to pick-up anything other than marginal depth in free agency, you have to get playmakers in the draft.

If Dorsey is a good GM, those 2 picks equal 2 solid starters. Given the standard probabilities for all teams in the draft, 2 solid starters is basically almost one entire draft.

That doesn't mean that they won't be successful. They've just essentially cut off their nose to spite their face. 2 steps forward, one step back. However you want to look at it.

I'm not saying Alex Smith was a bad move. I'm not saying two picks was too much to give up.

All I'm saying is that giving up those 2 picks make the rest of the "plan" that much harder to execute, thus the probability said "plan" working goes down...

[RealSNR]

I also don't think this conversation happens if the 49ers just kept it at a 2013 2nd rounder and then some change. Maybe a 5th or a 4th in 2014. Instead, the second half turned into a 3rd or a 2nd, with the qualifier for the 2nd being a ridiculously low benchmark (reach 8-8 on the year). It wasn't even a playoff berth. Just 8-8.

The Niners probably wanted this deal. But since the negotiations were being conducted at the combine behind closed doors, it wasn't like there was a bidding war going on or anything. I'll bet they would have accepted the lower offer.

[Just Passin' By]

It was two critical picks. A good GM will get 2 solid starters out of 2nd round picks. He essentially traded two of them for Alex Smith.



They didn't HAVE to draft a QB. Again, a GOOD GM would find a way to get a good QB without mortgaging his own draft strategy.

For all of the talk about how "garbage" last year's draft was, this year's draft is one of the BEST in recent memory.

And we're missing a 2nd round pick.

2nd round picks have about a 50% hit rate. Alex Smith for 2 second round picks means you, by the odds, traded away 1 likely starter for your starting QB.

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/04/20/casserly-billick-talk-raji-sanchez-jenkins/

[temper11]

Last year was the first year of a new regime. They went and got a QB and then signed some middle of the road FAs in hopes of turning things around in their first year. Some people have decided that meant we are in a "win now" mode and that we would go after more FAs and not just middle of the road guys. People actually thinking the Chiefs were going to go all in in year two of the new regime and sign more FAs got a reality check. So the clear and obvious difference this year is we didn't need to trade for a QB and the FAs we've talked with signed elsewhere. It's not really that much different at all. I'm more disturbed that we haven't signed Houston, Berry and Alex Smith to new deals and not having restructured a guy like Flowers. I expected that and then for us to look at middle of the road FAs or FA steals like we got with Schwartz last year. It does suck watching the Donks load up while we stay conservative though.

this.

[philfree]

There's a little wrench in the gears though, in the form of those 2 picks given up for Alex Smith. I don't care if you spent those 2 picks on a 27-year old John Elway, you still have to surround him with talent. If you're not going to pick-up anything other than marginal depth in free agency, you have to get playmakers in the draft.

If Dorsey is a good GM, those 2 picks equal 2 solid starters. Given the standard probabilities for all teams in the draft, 2 solid starters is basically almost one entire draft.

That doesn't mean that they won't be successful. They've just essentially cut off their nose to spite their face. 2 steps forward, one step back. However you want to look at it.

I'm not saying Alex Smith was a bad move. I'm not saying two picks was too much to give up.

All I'm saying is that giving up those 2 picks make the rest of the "plan" that much harder to execute, thus the probability said "plan" working goes down...

A little perhaps but not as much as not having a quality starting QB. If this regimes success hinges off a late 2nd round draft pick then we're screwed anyway. IMO you're overvaluing a 2nd round draft pick and undervaluing Alex Smith. I'd take a quality QB over an unknown 2nd round pick any day. And I too hated the Smith trade at first. I like it now.

[temper11]

The Niners probably wanted this deal. But since the negotiations were being conducted at the combine behind closed doors, it wasn't like there was a bidding war going on or anything. I'll bet they would have accepted the lower offer.

I'm not so sure about this... Really, why should have the niners traded Smith? They were going with a new exciting QB running a gimmick offense that had success when defenses didn't have time to prepare for it. Smith and Kap's combined salaries were less than what most teams spend on one QB let alone 2. If the niners don't trade Smith, they have a solid, reliable, veteran QB who can step in if their RUNNING QB sustains a season ending injury for 2 more years! Even if Kap doesn't go down, they had the benefit of Smith coaching him up for 2 more years. Harbaugh himself said that Smith was doing more QB coaching than he was. They weren't going to let him go for cheap. Even if no one else came looking Smith was incredibly valuable to the niners organization given what they were paying him and Kap.

[keg in kc]

All I'm saying is that giving up those 2 picks make the rest of the "plan" that much harder to execute, thus the probability said "plan" working goes down...I mentioned this a few hours ago, but in terms of discussing how it effects the "plan" (whatever that is) with regards to Alex Smith, it's actually only one pick. He isn't losing access to two playmakers because of the trade. Only one. Because he himself is the other. It's a two for one trade, not a two for zero trade. I know you know this, but it's a point that needs to be made.

In essence, it really boils down to what they're losing out of this year's 2nd round. This is the only time they really get nothing.

[Snapplez]

I don't always follow lockstep, or have the exact same philosophy as my boss.

Why do we assume Dorsey will do the same with Thompson?

[htismaqe]

I mentioned this a few hours ago, but in terms of discussing how it effects the "plan" (whatever that is) with regards to Alex Smith, it's actually only one pick. He isn't losing access to two playmakers because of the trade. Only one. Because he himself is the other. It's a two for one trade, not a two for zero trade.

So, in essence, it really boils down to what they're losing out of this year's 2nd round.

Fair enough. That's why I said "two steps forward, 1 step back".

It's a net gain, for sure.

[htismaqe]

I don't always follow lockstep, or have the exact same philosophy as my boss.

Why do we assume Dorsey will do the same with Thompson?

Bingo.

[Mr. Laz]

fine ... last year was a quick patch and now we are in normal grind mode.


Still doesn't change the fact that there is going to be a lull until Dorsey gets his draft core built up. Which means that this is a rebuild-ish and that our older core players aren't going to be part of it.

When this year's draft starts we might as well get on the phone and have a fire sale.

Try to trade as many vets for draft picks as we can.

I bet we can squeeze a 1st out of Alex Smith if the QB's go quick.

Charles to regain our 2nd?

What would Hali and DJ go for?


If you are going to build through the draft, then just do it.

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

So you're not going to be a man and prove that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth?

Gonna bow out before anybody realizes that you got ****ing owned?

Clay? Is that you?

It appears when htis left, as a parting shot he gave you his login info. I can't believe that the real htis typed the post I quoted.

Dinny

[keg in kc]

I don't see any way they get a 1st out of Alex Smith, particularly not on a one-year contract.

You're also talking about building through the draft like this is Madden and you just unload everybody. When in reality teams are usually still trying to win even when in a rebuild.

I think one of the problems we have in these discussions (myself included) is that everything is not black and white, either/or. You don't generally build a team just with the draft any more than you build one just with free agents. It's usually more like what they're doing, where you settle on a core to build around and go from there. They try to make it into a reloading situation as quickly as possible, rather than an extended rebuilding.

[htismaqe]

Clay? Is that you?

It appears when htis left, as a parting shot he gave you his login info. I can't believe that the real htis typed the post I quoted.

Dinny

Nah, it's the real me.

When people pull pussy moves like he did, I'm gonna let it be known.

[temper11]

I don't see any way they get a 1st out of Alex Smith, particularly not on a one-year contract.

You're also talking about building through the draft like this is Madden and you just unload everybody. When in reality teams are usually still trying to win even when in a rebuild.

As a fan of capitalism, I don't fault Hunt for wanting to put butts in the seats while also trying to build a champ. He is a business man, and this is his product. He is trying to sell it the best that he can both for now and in the future.

[Iconic]

No one was there in the backroom when they where discussing the Smith trade. Dorsey isn't stupid; he's definitely one of the more conservative GM's in the NFL so I'm sure he had his reasons.

[the Talking Can]

2nd round picks have about a 50% hit rate. Alex Smith for 2 second round picks means you, by the odds, traded away 1 likely starter for your starting QB.

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/04/20/casserly-billick-talk-raji-sanchez-jenkins/

draft picks matter, or they don't...

people can't blather out of one side of their mouths that 'we're building through the draft' and then say something as fucking stupid as you just did

if Dorsey is a good drafter, and his whole philosophy is building through the draft, then giving up 2 seconds for a benched QB matters and is fair game for criticism in the context of his long term plans

but then you still have scabs in your lower intestine from the damage Cassel did to you, so maybe this is the best you have to offer

[Snapplez]

No one was there in the backroom when they where discussing the Smith trade. Dorsey isn't stupid; he's definitely one of the more conservative GM's in the NFL so I'm sure he had his reasons.

Droppin serious bankroll on guys like Devito, Fasano, and Daniel. Conservative as fuck

[htismaqe]

No one was there in the backroom when they where discussing the Smith trade. Dorsey isn't stupid; he's definitely one of the more conservative GM's in the NFL so I'm sure he had his reasons.

Based on what evidence?

He's only been a GM for about 14 months.

[rico]

You think wrong.

I'm mad because he says he's building through the draft while trading away draft picks.

If you don't see those two things as contradictory, you're just being stubborn because they absolutely are.

Yeah, when I read the OP, my first thought was, "well then, what the **** happened to our 2nd round pick this year that would come in friggy-diggy-freaking handy???"

Then I started crying again.

[Iconic]

Droppin serious bankroll on guys like Devito, Fasano, and Daniel. Conservative as ****

It was his first year in a dumpster fire. He had to put it out with something...

[Iconic]

Based on what evidence?

He's only been a GM for about 14 months.

Thompson and Dorsey both stem from the Ron Wolf tree.

[Snapplez]

It was his first year in a dumpster fire. He had to put it out with something...

Put out the dumpster fire... by burnin money on garbage?

[Iconic]

Put out the dumpster fire... by burnin money on garbage?

If going to the playoffs and giving up a 28 point lead means burning money then sure...

[the Talking Can]

i like dorsey, but he got fleeced by the 49ers and the agent of every FA he signed last year...and got nothing for Albert, even as he wasted the #1 pick on the draft on his replacement

if cooper doesn't play well for 7 games, it looks a whole lot shittier

[Messier]

i like dorsey, but he got fleeced by the 49ers and the agent of every FA he signed last year...and got nothing for Albert, even as he wasted the #1 pick on the draft on his replacement

if cooper doesn't play well for 7 games, it looks a whole lot shittier

If I felt the way you do about the moves last year, I'd hate Dorsey with a passion.

[htismaqe]

Thompson and Dorsey both stem from the Ron Wolf tree.

He wasn't ever a GM.

[the Talking Can]

If I felt the way you do about the moves last year, I'd hate Dorsey with a passion.

hard to argue too much with results...



even if they left us in our current situation, unable to sign FAs, no 2nd round pick, no compensation for albert for another year, etc...still far behind denver...and a non-elite QB that is probably going to get 90 mill

[temper11]

if Dorsey is a good drafter, and his whole philosophy is building through the draft, then giving up 2 seconds for a benched QB matters and is fair game for criticism in the context of his long term plans

The benched QB was one of the highest rated QB's in the league at the time of his injury. It's not like he gave up the picks for a perennial clip board holder.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

He needs to get Carl's leather jacket. Then wear it with the collar up :thump:

[temper11]

Yeah, when I read the OP, my first thought was, "well then, what the **** happened to our 2nd round pick this year that would come in friggy-diggy-freaking handy???"

Then I started crying again.

It would come in handy, but then you'd have Geno Smith under center.

[htismaqe]

It would come in handy, but then you'd have Geno Smith under center.

He never said that.

The Alex lovers' insecurity surrounding Geno Smith is hilarious.

[keg in kc]

He never said that.

The Alex lovers' insecurity surrounding Geno Smith is hilarious.The irony in the end is that we really are talking about the potential difference between Alex Smith on one hand, and Geno Smith plus a bottom of the 2nd round DB/WR/whatever on the other.

So they have a lot more invested in Geno Smith's failure than any of the rest of us have in his success at this point. They really need him to flop, in a sense, to justify the trade.

(And maybe he will, who knows).

[temper11]

He never said that.

The Alex lovers' insecurity surrounding Geno Smith is hilarious.

That's true... he never said that... I was just stating that yes you'd have a second round pick but who knows what you'd have as a QB. I don't have insecurity about Geno. I actually thought he played pretty good football last year. But I don't have the expectations for 1st round rookies that most people have. I generally tend to think of them as great prospects if afforded the right opportunity. Geno will be better off this year if Sanchez starts in front of him and he has an opportunity to learn.

My point is only... Would the 2nd last year and the 2nd this year equal a better team than Smith and no second this year? In my opinion, probably not. Even if Smith doesn't get win you the superbowl, you'll be way better off drafting his replacement and then letting that replacement learn under smith for a few years instead of throwing him to the wolves. Sign Smith for a few years and do what you can with the players that you have, draft his replacement when you find a guy you like and he falls to you in the draft, and then let him mature like Green bay did with Rodgers.

[keg in kc]

Geno will be better off this year if Sanchez starts in front of him and he has an opportunity to learn. Wasn't Sanchez cut?

[Iconic]

He wasn't ever a GM.

You're moving goal posts here; his tree is a strong enough indicator of his ideologies... If every GM was hired based on past GM experiences there would be no GM's.

[Titty Meat]

I wonder if the same dumbasses were saying the same stupid shit the 2nd year of pioli

[Iconic]

I wonder if the same dumbasses were saying the same stupid shit the 2nd year of pioli

You're right. Let's run Dorsey out of town and blow this shit up after we just went to the playoffs in his first year.

[temper11]

Wasn't Sanchez cut?

woops... I meant Vick. Ouch. Not sure I want Geno mentoring from Vick. Geno might be screwed. Still it's better than starting him right out of the gate.

[RealSNR]

What Dorsey says: "The Chiefs will build through the draft"

What Dorsey's results say: "The Chiefs will build through dumpster diving and rummage sales"

[Messier]

The irony in the end is that we really are talking about the potential difference between Alex Smith on one hand, and Geno Smith plus a bottom of the 2nd round DB/WR/whatever on the other.

So they have a lot more invested in Geno Smith's failure than any of the rest of us have in his success at this point. They really need him to flop, in a sense, to justify the trade.

(And maybe he will, who knows).

No, they just need Alex to be better.

[keg in kc]

No, they just need Alex to be better.It's not just them. We all need Alex Smith to be better, because at the end of the day he's who we're stuck with.

Although, frankly, Geno Smith is a non-issue. The reality is that we only need to measure Alex Smith against himself. And by the time he's done here, we need him to have been better than he's ever been to this point...

In any case, as Parker mentioned, it's funny how the people who seem to have the hardest time letting go of Geno are the Alex fans.

[The Franchise]

The benched QB was one of the highest rated QB's in the league at the time of his injury. It's not like he gave up the picks for a perennial clip board holder.

No....they gave up $10 million for the clip board holder.

[Deberg_1990]

CP has an insane obsession with sh*tty QBs....

Clausen, Sanchez, Geno Smith

The Three Amigos....

[Messier]

CP has an insane obsession with sh*tty QBs....

Clausen, Sanchez, Geno Smith

The Three Amigos....

CP GM's would've been fired many times over.

[The Franchise]

CP has an insane obsession with sh*tty QBs....

Clausen, Sanchez, Geno Smith

The Three Amigos....

Sanchez would have been a better pick than Jackson.

Clausen would have been a better pick than McCluster or Arenas.

[temper11]

In any case, as Parker mentioned, it's funny how the people who seem to have the hardest time letting go of Geno are the Alex fans.

If this was referring to my post, for the record I'd like to say that I don't care about Geno and wish I hadn't named him specifically in my post. I did so only to illustrate that it isn't "Alex or 2 picks"... It's "Alex or (enter unnamed drafted QB here) and 1 pick". That "unnamed drafted QB" is universally assumed to be Geno. That's the only reason I named him.

I hope the kid (Geno) does well for no other reason than I think fans have unrealistic expectations of these kids right out of college. If a kid underperforms fans should direct more of their rage at the GM for either a poor selection, or not sitting the kid underneath an experienced QB for a season or two to get acclimated.

[Messier]

Sanchez would have been a better pick than Jackson.

Clausen would have been a better pick than McCluster or Arenas.


Maybe, and nope.

[Just Passin' By]

Sanchez would have been a better pick than Jackson.

LMAO

Clausen would have been a better pick than McCluster or Arenas.

ROFL



You need to lay off the drugs.

[keg in kc]

If this was referring to my post, for the record I'd like to say that I don't care about Geno and wish I hadn't named him specifically in my post. I hope the kid does well for no other reason than I think fans have unrealistic expectations of these kids right out of college. If a kid underperforms fans should direct more of their rage at the GM for either a poor selection, or not sitting the kid underneath an experienced QB for a season or two to get acclimated.I wasn't referring to yours or any other post in particular. It's just something that happened a lot last year. We'd be talking about the Chiefs or Alex, the Jets nowhere in the discussion, and inevitably somebody would bring up Geno. Usually after a bad play or a bad game.

That's the internet, though. If Alex bombs and Geno goes to the pro bowl, I'm sure guys who wanted to draft him would be all over that, too.

Personally, we got who we got, so I don't pay attention to Geno any more. What's the point? Not like anybody in the front office gets a do-over.

[saphojunkie]

I find it frustrating that CP at large finds it unfathomable that we passed on a QB last year because the front office didn't think any of them were any good and not because it was deemed "too risky."

What doubles my frustration is when, in the same breath, these CP posters will also complain that two second round picks were traded for a QB who is under 30 and has shown the ability to produce at a high level in the playoffs.

So...

first overall QB - impossible to be too risky.

two second round picks - so risky that it is infuriating.

Doesn't anyone else find these to be incongruent lines of thinking?

[temper11]

I wasn't referring to yours or any other post in particular. It's just something that happened a lot last year. We'd be talking about the Chiefs or Alex, the Jets nowhere in the discussion, and inevitably somebody would bring up Geno. Usually after a bad play or a bad game.

That's the internet, though. If Alex bombs and Geno goes to the pro bowl, I'm sure guys who wanted to draft him would be all over that, too.

Personally, we got who we got, so I don't pay attention to Geno any more. What's the point? Not like anybody in the front office gets a do-over.

agreed.

[Easy 6]

It was one trade. You're acting like he's made several trades.

They needed a QB. What would you have them do? I'm all for taking a QB in the first, but right now, last yrs QB class looks like ass.

So much THIS.

Considering how bad every rookie QB was, those 2 picks for Smith are looking better and better.

[keg in kc]

I find it frustrating that CP at large finds it unfathomable that we passed on a QB last year because the front office didn't think any of them were any good and not because it was deemed "too risky."Some of us were frustrated because we didn't believe the front office even considered any quarterback other than Alex Smith last year. I've even gone so far as to suggest that the decision was made in early January, and that there's even a remote possibility that Reid's hire may have been somehow contingent upon the Smith trade. It's been interesting to me sometimes how much more of a Smith fan Reid seems to be in interviews than does Dorsey.

[Easy 6]

ROFL

I'm not crying at all. There's absolutely zero emotion in this for me. So every time you bring it up I laugh at how stupid it is.

And it's NOT ABOUT WHAT QB they should have brought in.

It's about what they should be doing to help make Alex Smith a successful QB.

You don't understand the argument at all, and it's obvious.

Without those two seconds we don't GET Alex Smith and have to settle on some rookie in a bad class of rookies... you gotta have someone WORTH surrounding with talent before you can start doing it.

[ChiefGator]

So much THIS.

Considering how bad every rookie QB was, those 2 picks for Smith are looking better and better.

Yep. And good luck getting free agents to come here with Matt Cassel throwing the ball to them.

[Marcellus]

Sanchez would have been a better pick than Jackson.

Clausen would have been a better pick than McCluster or Arenas.

DMC and Arenas still play NFL football.

Clausen is an unsigned ex 3rd string QB.

[The Franchise]

DMC and Arenas still play NFL football.

Clausen is an unsigned ex 3rd string QB.

Clausen got 1 fucking year on a shitty Panthers team before they drafted Newton. Then they fucking held onto him and did dick with him.

[Marcellus]

Clausen got 1 ****ing year on a shitty Panthers team before they drafted Newton. Then they ****ing held onto him and did dick with him.

That explains why he is basically out of football 4 years into his career.

[temper11]

It's been interesting to me sometimes how much more of a Smith fan Reid seems to be in interviews than does Dorsey.

Well, Dorsey is from GreenBay. Aaron Rodgers came out the same year as did Smith and many believed the niners would take Rodgers #1 overall. So organizationally I'm sure Green Bay is pretty happy with the way that draft played out. It probably took some getting used to coming into KC and the first thing your New HC wants to do is go get the "other guy" in that 05 draft.

Also, Reid has said on numerous occasions that he actively followed Smith's career, even when the niners were losing and they were putting in and taking Smith out of the lineup seemingly every other game. Dorsey probably stopped evaluating Smith once that 05 draft was done.

[The Franchise]

That explains why he is basically out of football 4 years into his career.

There are plenty of examples of player's careers derailing on their 1st contract. Shit happens all of the time. Just like there are players that can't catch on. I know he's coming back from an injury right now.

[Easy 6]

If they go TE early and Kelce stays healthy/is a positive at TC.....then they need to ****ing cut Fasano as quick as possible. Dude is making too much to be an insurance policy.

Yep, **** that guy, I knew we weren't getting Ben Coates but I sure as hell expected a lot more than we got from Fasano, dudes a bust.

[htismaqe]

I find it frustrating that CP at large finds it unfathomable that we passed on a QB last year because the front office didn't think any of them were any good and not because it was deemed "too risky."

Manufactured argument. Other than a couple of crackpots out there, literally nobody in this argument still thinks we would have been better off drafting a QB last year.

Thinking Fisher was a bad pick and thinking the 2 picks we traded for Alex Smith have a lot of value do not, and never will, equal wanting to draft a QB in the 1st round last year.

[htismaqe]

There are plenty of examples of player's careers derailing on their 1st contract. Shit happens all of the time. Just like there are players that can't catch on. I know he's coming back from an injury right now.

Please don't bring up Jimmy Clausen again. Admit the mistake and move on.

[The Franchise]

Please don't bring up Jimmy Clausen again. Admit the mistake and move on.

I already have....plenty of times. I'm a firm believer that some players fail because of the team that drafted them.

[Tribal Warfare]

I already have....plenty of times. I'm a firm believer that some players fail because of the team that drafted them.

The whole fascination for me was Weis being on the coaching staff.

I even said if Clausen goes into the wrong situation he'd fail

[keg in kc]

I already have....plenty of times. I'm a firm believer that some players fail because of the team that drafted them.I agree with that. I think some situations are tailor-made for success, and some are just a bust waiting to happen. But I also think some guys are universal failures (Sanchez comes to mind, and Clausen's probably on that list, although I was in favor of it at the time).

[temper11]

I'm a firm believer that some players fail because of the team that drafted them.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[mcaj22]

I already have....plenty of times. I'm a firm believer that some players fail because of the team that drafted them.

RE: Glenn Dorsey

[The Franchise]

The whole fascination for me was Weis being on the coaching staff.

I even said if Clausen goes into the wrong situation he'd fail

I agree with that. I think some situations are tailor-made for success, and some are just a bust waiting to happen. But I also think some guys are universal failures (Sanchez comes to mind, and Clausen's probably on that list, although I was in favor of it at the time).

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

RE: Glenn Dorsey

And that's why when people scream about Sanchez, Clausen or Geno....it bugs me. You can't realistically sit here and claim that if we had drafted either one of those guys....that they would have 100% turned out the same way. There are always players that come into the NFL and need a season (or more) of adjustment time....QBs especially. Yet when those QBs get over drafted, and fail, they're labeled as busts and anyone who wanted to draft them is bashed.

Clausen, for example (and this is all JMO), would have succeeded on a team where he was allowed to sit and learn for a year. I even think that he would have succeeded on the Panthers had he been given more than a year. Instead he was drafted, started (on a shitty team) and then replaced my the #1 overall pick after a year. I think he would have succeeded on a team like the Chiefs, where he wouldn't have been expected to start in the 1st year. He would have been able to work with Weis and get acclimated to the NFL.

Brady Quinn is the same way. And no...I'm not going homer just because they're both Irish QBs.

[keg in kc]

You can't realistically sit here and claim that if we had drafted either one of those guys....that they would have 100% turned out the same way. Sure you can. It's just an opinion.

If you want to get into specific guys, I think Sanchez would've failed basically anywhere. And he definitely would have failed here. Seriously, think about the teams we fielded from 2009-2012 - there was no happy end to that story here... Similarly I think Clausen would've failed basically anywhere. And he falls into the same basic roster window here that Sanchez does. That would not have been a good landing spot. At all. Beyond that I think there's a combination of problems, both psychological and physical, that would've precluded either one from early success in virtually any situation.

And I think Geno will fail in New York. Believing what I do now about his mental makeup, I think there are only a limited number of places that would've been good for him. Although I do think here may have been one of them. But as I said at the time he was drafted, I can't think of a worse situation than the Jets for him. But who knows, maybe he'll be fine in the end. Stranger things have happened.

Either way, we're stuck with Alex Smith.

And just because I think those guys (meaning Clausen and Sanchez) were basically doomed to failure doesn't mean that I believe everyone who busts was or is. I was agreeing with you in my last post, after all.

[Rausch]

Sure you can. It's just an opinion.

If you want to get into specific guys, I think Sanchez would've failed basically anywhere. And he definitely would have failed here. Seriously, think about the teams we fielded from 2009-2012 - there was no happy end to that story here...

Looking back I don't think any rookie would have done well with the offensive mess that was the Pioli Chiefs.

Between T0dd and our $3it-tastic OC's anyone would have flopped...

[Lightrise]

Interesting thread. I felt the trade for Smith was absolutely the best play last year and it worked out better than I expected. The real gem last year was getting Bray for virtually nothing. I still believe that one day we will see that arm in the starting lineup. I was not a fan of the draft but I've come around on Davis. I thought getting Sherman was a good move. I did not care for Kelce though. I watched enough film to conclude that Schwartz wasn't worth trying to keep and the only FA I'm sorry to see gone is McCluster, because I don't think we are going to get better in the return game regardless. He's got what it takes in punt returns and those returns usually come early in the season anyway. The big mistake was not going all in to pry Gordon from Cleveland. I honestly believe a #1 pick would have been worth it and it would have made a difference in the season. I don't think had we had Gordon that we would have lost both San Diego games, and that means we could have won the division and our playoff game would have been at home and perhaps the dynamics change drastically. I think, for cap purposes, we should move on from Hali and give his money to Houston. That probably happens anyway. As for Hunt, he did the right thing in the way he set this up with each of the big three reporting directly to him. That formula will be the league norm in 3 years at the most. I love the 'special projects' hire and I suspect that Bray is a big part of that focus. That's the long term play here. It's no guarantee, but the risk/reward is an intriguing one. Finally we have to think our division. It's always about winning now, not in 5 years. We have to have veteran leadership in our division. We cannot win without that. It's still win now and not later. Charles is the most unique back I have seen since OJ. Enjoy the ride because you may never see another like him again. He's got the perfect QB, the perfect HC and the perfect offense. It's a wonderful ride to the Hall of Fame. This years draft will be interesting. The fact that its deep helps. I expect Dorsey to once again pick up the pieces after the final cuts from loaded teams. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team try to trade up over Green Bay to grab one of the safeties. But since we still need the WR that's where we are heading and I'd pick Cook.

Lastly, looking at the league - I don't see how the Chiefs ever get to the Super Bowl without structuring the team to beat the Colts. That team, for perhaps years, will always stand in our way. You either have to score 50 points, or the secondary has to be second to nobody.

Oh well, for what's its worth.

[Easy 6]

If you had put just THREE spaces in there, I would've read that post.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

How many franchise QBs win Super Bowls all by themselves while surrounded by garbage?

Team had like a dozen probowlers. The game is a joke, but they are far from garbage

[KCwolf]

I haven't sent a single neg rep in over 8 years.

Every argument I have is right here, in the open.

Prove me wrong or shut up.

You started this. Now be a man and either finish it or admit that you were wrong.

DUDE REALLY?????? Giving up 2 2nd rd picks for Alex was worth it .. Period

[Coochie liquor]

Both of them have good track records with QBs, though, and that's the most important piece, IMO.

Exactly!! Easy to look at the teams that contend every year and see that they have stability with a good qb under center. That is the key above all in this league. I'm fine with what we gave for a qb who in the second half of the season did everything g he could to help this team. Extend the play with your legs. Let your playmakers get open. They had to had a qb that could do that or we would have had Josh Freeman or worse and woulda been much worse off. Just my opinion!

[WhiteWhale]

Clausen got 1 ****ing year on a shitty Panthers team before they drafted Newton. Then they ****ing held onto him and did dick with him.

Did it ever occur to you that it played out that way because he sucks?

[WhiteWhale]

And that's why when people scream about Sanchez, Clausen or Geno....it bugs me. You can't realistically sit here and claim that if we had drafted either one of those guys....that they would have 100% turned out the same way. There are always players that come into the NFL and need a season (or more) of adjustment time....QBs especially. Yet when those QBs get over drafted, and fail, they're labeled as busts and anyone who wanted to draft them is bashed.

Clausen, for example (and this is all JMO), would have succeeded on a team where he was allowed to sit and learn for a year. I even think that he would have succeeded on the Panthers had he been given more than a year. Instead he was drafted, started (on a shitty team) and then replaced my the #1 overall pick after a year. I think he would have succeeded on a team like the Chiefs, where he wouldn't have been expected to start in the 1st year. He would have been able to work with Weis and get acclimated to the NFL.

Brady Quinn is the same way. And no...I'm not going homer just because they're both Irish QBs.

I agree with the premise. Alex Smith was ruined in SF, but somehow has become a decent QB. He's not great, but he's managed to rebuild his career.

Brady Quinn, on the other hand, is not one of those guys. Some guys are willing to put in the work in the film room, and some guys aren't. Quinn is not starting QB material and I don't think it would have mattered where he was drafted. Same with Sanchez.. the guy was more preoccupied with banging underage girls than learning to be an elite QB. He had a TON of talent around him early in his career. It was an ideal situation for a young QB and he blew it. No excuses for Sanchez.

[O.city]

The vast majority of prospects have to match up with philosophy, coach, system etc in order to fully succeed.

Guys like Luck would have probably hit anywhere, he's transcendent, however, even him and Manning have a chance they don't hit.

It's tough to say one way or another that a guy would fail here but succeed here, just to many variables.

[Iconic]

Remember when everyone thought Matt Barkley was our QBOTF. Lol good times...

[Mr. Laz]

DUDE REALLY?????? Giving up 2 2nd rd picks for Alex was worth it .. Period
only if we followed it up with an aggressive offseason of FA's and drafting to push for a deep playoff run

Otherwise it's just a bandaid and not worth two 2nd rounders

[Messier]

only if we followed it up with an aggressive offseason of FA's and drafting to push for a deep playoff run

Otherwise it's just a bandaid and not worth two 2nd rounders

Are you using past tense? Like we had last year to prove it was worth it? Because I think Smith will be here for several years. I think there's time yet to tell if it was worth the picks. Though after one year, I'm going with it's looking like it was worth it. We'll see.

[Mr. Laz]

Are you using past tense? Like we had last year to prove it was worth it? Because I think Smith will be here for several years. I think there's time yet to tell if it was worth the picks. Though after one year, I'm going with it's looking like it was worth it. We'll see.
What about the rest of the team? It's not just Smith, several of our better players only have 2/3 years left.

Also you can't just flip a switch and decide you have a single year to try.

You need to push as hard as you can during a 3/4 year window for the best chance to make a super bowl.

[keg in kc]

I haven't sent a single neg rep in over 8 years.

Every argument I have is right here, in the open.

Prove me wrong or shut up.

You started this. Now be a man and either finish it or admit that you were wrong.You sound like me. If I have ever given any negative rep (anything is possible...) I don't remember doing it. 'course I rarely give out positive rep either. But I do sometimes.

[Baby Lee]

I think it might be difficult to ascertain exactly what Thompson would do in a situation similar to what Dorsey faced here last year, since Brett Favre was still behind center when Thompson took over.

Ride ol' Dandy Don Majkowski for all he was worth

[BossChief]

A big reason a lot of CPers (including myself) wanted us to draft Claussen was because of the Charlie Weis connection.

[penchief]

How many times do I have to type the obvious before I give up?

Some of you are too stubborn and/or stupid to acknowledge reality, so why would I continue to waste my time?

You're giving me a headache, man. IMO, nobody is trying to have it both ways. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want to build through the draft but also realized that they needed a competent NFL quarterback to build around. Nobody liked the idea of giving up two second round picks for another quarterback after the Cassel era but the fact is that they paid the price they had to pay in order to get the ball rolling in the right direction.

A team full of second round picks isn't going to reach it's potential without a competent quarterback and leader. So I have no problem accepting the premise that their intention was always to build through the draft but they were also willing to pay the price to change the culture of the team. Smith appears to be a guy who can get the job done on the field but also be a mentor and leader for all our future second round picks.

I think you're overthinking the whole thing...

[keg in kc]

Looking back I don't think any rookie would have done well with the offensive mess that was the Pioli Chiefs.

Between T0dd and our $3it-tastic OC's anyone would have flopped...Yep.

It's ugly to say it, but I don't think it would've mattered who we drafted, unless they were so amazingly good that they could overcome the staff and the rest of the roster. Although frankly I think that comment is probably true all the way back to about 1999 (even the Vermeil years, at least on the d side of the ball, although they didn't play many rookies on offense and those they did generally bombed).

This place has been a sinkhole for a long time, and only the real star calibre players hear can overcome it. I don't know if people realize just how special players like Charles and Bowe really are (particularly Bowe, who's been what seems like half the fanbase's whippin' boy his whole tenure here).

[BossChief]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

[Easy 6]

only if we followed it up with an aggressive offseason of FA's and drafting to push for a deep playoff run

Otherwise it's just a bandaid and not worth two 2nd rounders

Regardless of further moves, Smith was worth every bit of those two seconds IMO... there was absolutely no one better available for less.

More than anyone else... GM, HC, hidden gems with real potential, average schmaverage fill ins... Smitty was the one MOST responsible for that 9 game swing, PERIOD.

Without him we're flopping around once again like a fish out of water with Barkley, Geno, Jason Campbell etc... no hope for NOW, no hope for the FUTURE, just flopping the hell around.

God bless Alex Smith.

[kcxiv]

Remember when everyone thought Matt Barkley was our QBOTF. Lol good times...

As a chiefs fan i dont even know what its like to have a QBOTF. I'd like to see one day. lol

ONe thing i do know as a Chiefs fan is they dont make going into a season very exciting.

[RealSNR]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

Sitton is the only starter.

House is pretty valuable depth. He was a great pick to make with a comp selection.

Newhouse has been up and down, and is nothing more than OL depth.

I thought that Jerron McMillian was going to be a stud. I'm delighted we're at least going to give him a chance, but odds are if the Packers don't like anything about him, he's not going to stick with us either.

[BossChief]

If you want to truly look at what the Packers did EVERY YEAR that is probably something we will implement, going forward....it's the volume of draft day trades.

2013 - 4 trades
2012 - 3 trades
2011 - 4 trades
2010 - 1 trade
2009 - 3 trades
2008 - 5 trades
2007 - 5 trades

[BossChief]

Players taken with those traded for selections...

2007

Brandon Jackson
Aaron Rouse
Desmond Bishop
Allen Barbre
Korey Hall

2008

Jordy Nelson
Brian Brohm
Brent Giocomini
Matt Flynn
Brett Swain

2009

Clay Matthews
Jamon Meridith
Brandon Underwood

2010

Morgan Burnett

2011

DJ Williams
Caleb Shnaudenhoff
DJ Smith
Ryan Taylor

2012

Jerrell Worthy
Casey Hayward
Terrell Manning

2013

Kevin Dorsey
Charles Johnson
Eddie Lacy
David Bakhtiari
Jonathan Franklin

[Easy 6]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

Looks like a metric ton of free yet wasted picks... do better with that and it all of a sudden it looks like a free lottery.

If the "comp pick" angle is what Dorsey is going for as a franchise model then he DAMN well do better than this.

[DTLB58]

I had a thought just occur to me, one that I'm a little surprised I've never had before.

(And let me first reiterate that I hate that we gave up two picks for Smith. That's always been my biggest issue with it...)

In all of the various and sundry discussions about drafting a QB on this board over the years, I can't count the number of times I've seen people say they would do "whatever it takes" to acquire a franchise quarterback. Just as an example, I've seen the Redskins lauded by certain proponents of a first round QB (myself included) for the RGIII move, because they, basically, had the balls to attempt something that this franchise is clearly not interested in (if not outright terrified of...) doing.

So let's say, as a theoretical exercise, that we're in the draft in may, round about pick 14, and the Chiefs see a quarterback that they really like on the board. Somebody they like so much that they're willing to offer the Bears a couple of picks to take their spot. Carr, Manziel, whoever. Doesn't really matter what the name is. They identify their guy, the guy they think can take over in, let's say 2018, Aaron Rodgers 4 years on the bench style, but they're sure he won't slip past the 14th pick.

Should they make that move? Because, you know, they'd be giving up more than one pick, and potentially crippling the franchise since they wouldn't have as many picks to use to put around him...

Basically, is the problem with the Alex Smith trade that we lost a 2nd round pick this year (let's consider him the 2013 second rounder - we couldn't have picked up both him and another player with that pick last year, so that pick doesn't change anything around him....), or is the problem that the trade was for Alex Smith himself?

If that makes any sense....

Bascially, if a quarterback is a position worth risking multiple picks for, as I think almost all of us in favor of a 1st round QB have said at times over the years, then why is the loss of a 2014 2nd round pick for Smith such an issue? Are we in 'trying to have our cake and eat it, too" territory here?

No, the problem is, is that you can't please everyone. Whether it's the player Alex Smith, RGIII,or Johnny Manziel for example or said compensation. Two 2's or a whole bunch like the Rams did.
Now, if he wins 2-3 SB's maybe, but that will take a while and there will be a whole lot of let's call it discussing along the way.

[PornChief]

If Smith gets us 2-3 superbowls he's worth 4 or 5 1st's at least lol.

[DTLB58]

a team should do both - FA and Draft for building a roster, plain and simple - this shouldn't be such a mental hurdle for these execs - it's simple mathematics.

I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the top article. Why do we have let go every single UFA? How many times have I read from GM's the most important part about FA is signing and taking care of your own. And isn't a productive veteran player better than an unproven comp pick in next years draft?

[BossChief]

If the Packers didnt make the move to draft Aaron Rodgers, that's a 5-6 win team AT BEST.

Hopefully, John Dorsey recognizes that and tries to duplicate at least that part of the model.

[Iconic]

If Dorsey let's Houston walk I'll take back everything I've said about him. IMO that's grounds for firing.

[BossChief]

If Dorsey let's Houston walk I'll take back everything I've said about him. IMO that's grounds for firing.

Well, the Packers paid Clay Matthews and Aaron Rodgers big money.

That doesn't mean Alex Smith and Justin Houston are both gonna sign deals to stay in KC past next year, but I think they will be realistic with their offers for both players...in fact, if I was forced to place a bet I'd wager that both get crazy deals to stay.

I think Alex Smith gets a carbon copy of Jay Cutlers deal and Justin Houston gets a carbon copy of Clay Matthews deal.

[Mr. Laz]

Regardless of further moves, Smith was worth every bit of those two seconds IMO... there was absolutely no one better available for less.

More than anyone else... GM, HC, hidden gems with real potential, average schmaverage fill ins... Smitty was the one MOST responsible for that 9 game swing, PERIOD.

Without him we're flopping around once again like a fish out of water with Barkley, Geno, Jason Campbell etc... no hope for NOW, no hope for the FUTURE, just flopping the hell around.

God bless Alex Smith.but it's not really about Alex Smith

It's about the philosophy of trading two 2nd round draft picks for a QB when your team is not ready to make a push.

[Just Passin' By]

but it's not really about Alex Smith

It's about the philosophy of trading two 2nd round draft picks for a QB when your team is not ready to make a push.

Seattle went from 7-9 to SB champions in 2 years.

[Easy 6]

but it's not really about Alex Smith

It's about the philosophy of trading two 2nd round draft picks for a QB when your team is not ready to make a push.

Oh but it IS about Smith... without him this team goes 7-9 to 8-8 last year.

If a team wants to make a winning push, they should probably start with the most important position on the field... if Alex wasn't worth the cost then I'll just stop here and let you think what you want to think, I'm so sick of these pointless arguments.

Last year went from presumably "ok yeah the new crew got us a 5 game swing, 7-9! c'mon guys whats wrong with ya'll that's REAL improvement!"

To "holy shit we've been blowing fools OUT these last few weeks and are now poised to dominate a playoff game!"

That kind of change is ALL about the QB for any team... c'mon dude, give some credit where its due.

[Chief Roundup]

but it's not really about Alex Smith

It's about the philosophy of trading two 2nd round draft picks for a QB when your team is not ready to make a push.

So we should have kept Matt Cassel then. Or Jason Campbell that could not have done what Smith did. Smith removed the stench that Cassel had put on this team in one year.
Never have heard of a team being built with the QB being the last piece. That was intentionally brought in just for that purpose. I am pretty sure it is suppose to be the first piece brought on.

[Mr. Laz]

Seattle went from 7-9 to SB champions in 2 years.
I look forward to our super bowl rings then.

[WhiteWhale]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

I've always felt this was a bad way to judge such things, because having extra picks often dramatically changes the entire strategy of the draft.

Look at what KC did with the Jared Allen trade. We nabbed Albert, Charles, and that shitty Safety... Morgan or whatever. However I still feel that KC would have not drafted Brandon Flowers if not for the extra picks they gained.

[Just Passin' By]

I look forward to our super bowl rings then.

The point is about being ready for a push. In today's NFL, a couple of good drafts and a QB who gets hot at the right time is more than enough to get you to the big game.

There's no guarantee that you get the rings.

[mcaj22]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

Ted Thompson has also splashed on veteran FAs more than the Chiefs ever have. Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers come to mind here. I'd rather have Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers over everything Dorsey has signed so far for the Chiefs

[el borracho]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

[Easy 6]

Axl Smythe sucks like Tim Couch, give up hope all ye who enter...

Sure, many things are disappointing, but our QB is at the top of that list :shake:

[mcaj22]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

The games Smith didn't throw a TD in were against QBs of the likes of Thad Lewis, Case Keenum, Mike Vick, Terrell Pryor, Andy Luck.

As of right now only ONE of those QBs will be a starter next year.

Your argument actually shows how overrated and shitty our defense is. The Chiefs defense was able to beat on really, really, really shitty QBs and unprepared offensive systems for that week. Whereas Alex Smith had to keep them in both Denver games and the first SD games

Alex Smith against Luck, Rivers, Manning: 11 touchdowns and 3 picks.

The Chiefs defense in those four games gave up a bajillion ****ing yards and points. Because the Chiefs defense is the ****ing problem, not Alex Smith.

[el borracho]

No, the argument is that the Chiefs defense, not Alex Smith, determined the outcome of the games in 2013.

None of the QBs you mention play defense, by the way, so they have very little to do with Alex Smith's performance. If you want to discuss the defense on the opposing teams last year, that would have a lot more relevance to Alex Smith's performance. No need to look it up, I can tell you that the Chiefs played an incredibly easy schedule in 2013. Chiefs got out to a great start by defeating some really crappy opponents in 2013.

[Messier]

No, the argument is that the Chiefs defense, not Alex Smith, determined the outcome of the games in 2013.

None of the QBs you mention play defense, by the way, so they have very little to do with Alex Smith's performance. If you want to discuss the defense on the opposing teams last year, that would have a lot more relevance to Alex Smith's performance. No need to look it up, I can tell you that the Chiefs played an incredibly easy schedule in 2013. Chiefs got out to a great start by defeating some really crappy opponents in 2013.

Yes. We've been well aware of the easy schedule that the team that won 2 games the year before had. The chiefs were one of those bad teams before last year. If you don't think Smith had anything to do with the turn around, you're high. If you watched the games you'd be able to notice the plays that kept drives alive that Smith made in most of those wins. Oh, but he only threw for 180 yards, that means he sucked and did nothing.

And let me guess, are you one of these Smith is to blame for the playoff loss, people? I'm not saying Smith is one of the best QBs in the league, but I'm also not gonna listen to people say he had little to do with the turnaround. He had as much to do with it as anyone else, and was one of the few people that can honestly say don't blame me for the playoff loss.

[HemiEd]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.Boom goes the fucking truth!

[Messier]

Name the QB that you wanted to draft last year.

[TripleThreat]

Well, many would like to see the Chiefs build through the draft, and I guess I'm one who agrees with that. It might not be pretty at first, but I'm willing to let this front office do their thing.

Most top teams have built through the draft like the seahawks, niners, colts to think of just a quick few..

We have a lot of drafted players on our team and I personally like to see our team win off our own blood and drafted players, but sometimes if it takes just that 1 person to set your team over the edge (in the broncos case 10 players) then why not do it?

I personally think we are missing a Top notch Tight end, a WR that can actually compliment Bowe, and maybe 1 more top D player for us to be super bowl caliber worthy.. And I don't think that's expecting too much after our performance last year since we did look like we could've made a run...

[chiefzilla1501]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

I don't think many people on CP are crediting Smith for his win/loss record. I was a really big critic most of the year.

Even the biggest of critics have said the second half version of Alex Smith was better and different than any Alex Smith we ever saw in San Fran. Even if the Chiefs didn't pull off many wins the second half of the year, the way Smith played, we could have pulled most of those wins off with even just an average defense. Smith was one of the main reasons we were keeping games close. I NEVER thought Smith was capable of carrying a team, but he did.

That being said… Smith is a QB that needs help around him to succeed.

[chiefzilla1501]

Seattle went from 7-9 to SB champions in 2 years.

Good thing they traded a 3rd in 2010 and fell 20 spots in the second round of the 2011 draft to get Charlie Whitehurst.

[mcaj22]

No, the argument is that the Chiefs defense, not Alex Smith, determined the outcome of the games in 2013.

None of the QBs you mention play defense, by the way, so they have very little to do with Alex Smith's performance. If you want to discuss the defense on the opposing teams last year, that would have a lot more relevance to Alex Smith's performance. No need to look it up, I can tell you that the Chiefs played an incredibly easy schedule in 2013. Chiefs got out to a great start by defeating some really crappy opponents in 2013.

Our defense playing shitty QBs/offenses

or

Alex Smith playing shitty defenses?

Alex Smith still performed well in games against shootout style QBs. Scoring points against offenses that would drive right down our swiss cheese career day defense and score in 20 seconds.

So I would say our defense was an over inflated product against shitty QBs. It's a fraud defense. It was at one point statistically the #1 defense in the league, then fell off a cliff. Alex Smith remained at least consistent top 10 NFL QB on paper, in fantasy, and statistically.

You will get consistent play out of Alex Smith in 2014, that's what he brings. The defense on the other hand, you have to wonder how long til the wheels fall off, again. Probably earlier in 2014 than in 2013.

[chiefzilla1501]

Here's a list of the players GB has gotten from their comp picks over the years...

Josh Boyd
Mike Daniels
Herron McMillan
Andrew Datko
BJ Coleman
Davon House
Marshall Newhouse
Josh Sitton

A whole lot of meh.

If it wasnt so much work, I'd do the research to show the list of free agents they lost to get those comp picks and I'd bet anything that list of players would be a lot more impressive.

The reason I've brought up comp picks a million times is, it's not like we're sitting around and doing nothing. If we end up extending at least 2 of the three contracts in Berry, Smith, or Houston (hopefully all 3), that's not a small offseason. To be able to pull those 3 deals off AND keep your cap within reason AND get 4 comp picks in the process (one of them will probably end up being a 3rd rounder for Albert, the other 2 will probably be pretty decent), then that's pretty awesome.

If we pull off 1 starter, awesome. If most of those guys become quality depth, awesome. Nobody expects all 4 of these guys to be starters or pro bowlers. I guess I put a lot more value in quality depth than many might.

[chiefzilla1501]

Our defense playing shitty QBs/offenses

or

Alex Smith playing shitty defenses?

Alex Smith still performed well in games against shootout style QBs. Scoring points against offenses that would drive right down our swiss cheese career day defense and score in 20 seconds.

So I would say our defense was an over inflated product against shitty QBs. It's a fraud defense. It was at one point statistically the #1 defense in the league, then fell off a cliff. Alex Smith remained at least consistent top 10 NFL QB on paper, in fantasy, and statistically.

You will get consistent play out of Alex Smith in 2014, that's what he brings. The defense on the other hand, you have to wonder how long til the wheels fall off, again. Probably earlier in 2014 than in 2013.

And now you understand why I think it's silly to throw money at 1 defensive player and think that magically fixes everything.

[TripleThreat]

I don't think many people on CP are crediting Smith for his win/loss record. I was a really big critic most of the year.

Even the biggest of critics have said the second half version of Alex Smith was better and different than any Alex Smith we ever saw in San Fran. Even if the Chiefs didn't pull off many wins the second half of the year, the way Smith played, we could have pulled most of those wins off with even just an average defense. Smith was one of the main reasons we were keeping games close. I NEVER thought Smith was capable of carrying a team, but he did.

That being said… Smith is a QB that needs help around him to succeed.

A quarterback needs help around him to succeed? imagine that....

Look at Peyton Mannings surrounding cast.. Theres a guy you could say the same thing about then because most would argue he is quarterbacking the most talented roster in the NFL...

Tom Brady? Would u say its his system? Who knows but cassell went 11-6 with them and then sh1t the bed in the nfl when he left the patriots..

Im pretty sure quarterbacks need some type of help in the NFL to succeed no matter who it is.

[HemiEd]

Name the QB that you wanted to draft last year.
How about any year? This team does not draft QBs period. It just doesn't happen. Hey, they got a wild card spot, be happy, it is the goal.

[Messier]

How about any year? This team does not draft QBs period. It just doesn't happen. Hey, they got a wild card spot, be happy, it is the goal.

Don't be an idiot.

[chiefzilla1501]

A quarterback needs help around him to succeed? imagine that....

Look at Peyton Mannings surrounding cast.. Theres a guy you could say the same thing about then because most would argue he is quarterbacking the most talented roster in the NFL...

Tom Brady? Would u say its his system? Who knows but cassell went 11-6 with them and then sh1t the bed in the nfl when he left the patriots..

Im pretty sure quarterbacks need some type of help in the NFL to succeed no matter who it is.

Brady and Peyton are two QBs who can carry a bad team. And they have. Brady made the AFC championship game with an average defense and Reche Caldwell / Jabar Gaffney as his #1 and #2 receivers. Peyton usually carried an atrocious defense and offensive line in Indy.

But in every generation, there are about 4 or 5. Not worth the gamble to assume you'll bring in a QB who can carry a team. In most cases, you have a Russell Wilson, Flacco, and Eli who are very good QBs but are better built for teams that have a lot of talent around them.

[HemiEd]

Don't be an idiot.

Why would recognizing the facts be idiocy? Ignoring them is being a blind idiot.

The impatience and intolerance over the years of the Chiefs fans have cemented the current strategy of being competitive and not risking failing at mediocrity to ownership.

Anyone that thinks three GMs in a row making the same moves is coincidence is the idiot. Keep on drinking the kool aid, idiot.

[Messier]

Why would recognizing the facts be idiocy? Ignoring them is being a blind idiot.

The impatience and intolerance over the years of the Chiefs fans have cemented the current strategy of being competitive and not risking failing at mediocrity to ownership.

Anyone that thinks three GMs in a row making the same moves is coincidence is the idiot. Keep on drinking the kool aid, idiot.

So, you believe there is a no drafting a QB mandate handed down from Hunt?