A quick poll about the future of American Civilization.

[Rain Man]

The Gen Y thread got me wondering.

Where do you think America is in its life cycle? Are we ascending? Are we on the downside? What is our long-term trajectory as a civilization?

Poll to follow unless the Visigoths storm the walls before I can post it.

[loochy]

in b 4 visigoths

[DMAC]

Your view of ascending may differ from others.

[Rain Man]

in b 4 visigoths

Dammit. Horse was late.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iBn1wjjdAMM/TlpRP57XQdI/AAAAAAAADBg/G8yx1ViP8is/s1600/DSCN7890%2B%2528Small%2529.JPG

[Rain Man]

Your view of ascending may differ from others.

What's your definition?


I'm an optimist. I think American civilization is still on an upward path at a steady state. Our science is gamebreaking on a technology and science front, and our culture and language are winning on an international front. It probably wouldn't hurt to solve our fiscal, energy, and obesity problems, but those solutions will come.

[Katipan]

I think we're babies with a long way to go. I don't think you can get there without loads of experience and lots of mistakes. I think there will be a generation that looks back on these years with a lot of head shaking and patient smiles.

[Rain Man]

I'm not sure why the second poll option ends in a question mark. It's either a subconscious revelation on my part or a typo. I think it's a typo.

[BlackHelicopters]

Visigoths?

[Discuss Thrower]

Stable, but on the cusp of trending downward.


Not enough people believe in the principles the nation was founded on, and a good many others attack these principles on a normal basis.

[Rain Man]

Visigoths?

We're too far west for Ostrogoths.

[Sannyasi]

America is probably declining in terms of geopolitical influence, but I'm not sure if that's really the best way to judge a civilization. If we're all riding horses again in 50 years, I'll say we declined.

[ModSocks]

Depends on who you ask. Old bitter white guys will certainly tell you that this country is in steep decline. Everyone else will probably say it's ascending.

(Que Prison Bitch with his comments on gays and dems)

[BlackHelicopters]

We're too far west for Ostrogoths.

LMAO

[ct]

US govt is in cahoots with the aliens, we will never be defeated

aka, the Gaz option

[DMAC]

What's your definition?


I'm an optimist. I think American civilization is still on an upward path at a steady state. Our science is gamebreaking on a technology and science front, and our culture and language are winning on an international front. It probably wouldn't hurt to solve our fiscal, energy, and obesity problems, but those solutions will come.

I think of it as using technology, yes. But also getting back to our roots. Getting more in tune with each other and everything around us. We completely lost touch, and I think it's slowly creeping back.

You know, all that new age bullshit.

[barryforthewin20]

Fat

[loochy]

Fat

Frazod

[DaFace]

I think America's prominence in the world is on the decline, and I expect that trend to continue as other world economies (primarily China) continue to grow.

However, I think the quality of life in this country continues to improve and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. And really, that's the important part.

Balancing those two, I went with "We're in a stable state and likely won't decline."

[Bugeater]

Too much dead weight to be sustainable.

[tmax63]

I see the US as declining. Back post WW-II single wage earners raised a family on one paycheck and family values/ right/wrong were taught in the home. As the economy has over the past 50 years gotten to where it takes 2 paychecks to be even close to the same standard of living, kids are now learning morals, respect, behavior, etc. that should be taught in a stable home everywhere but at home. I feel sorry for today's kids who are going to be saddled the entitlement debt that today's politicians are giving out to buy election/re-election and the inter-generational grief coming when the young folks quit paying the IOU's to old folks.

[LiveSteam]

I'll give my opinion about America, when I get back from vacationing in Detroit

[Randallflagg]

I have to be completely honest here. I'm an old guy and seems like everyday I'm reminded that this is NOT the country I grew up in. Things change and I understand that. However, and it's only my opinion, but as Richard Pryor once said, "Shit rolling downhill fast now!"

[DaFace]

Depends on who you ask. Old bitter white guys will certainly tell you that this country is in steep decline. Everyone else will probably say it's ascending.

And this.

[teedubya]

The bread is running out... and the circuses bore me.

Definitely nearing the end.

[KC native]

Depends on who you ask. Old bitter white guys will certainly tell you that this country is in steep decline. Everyone else will probably say it's ascending.

(Que Prison Bitch with his comments on gays and dems)

this

[MahiMike]

We are #70 in healthcare in the world. We are way past descending.

[teedubya]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

Princeton Study: U.S. No Longer An Actual Democracy, but an Oligarchy.

Yeah, Descending. WAYYYY Descending.

[Deberg_1990]

Doesn't matter. God will end us with a meteor soon

/Pat Robertson
Posted via Mobile Device

[hometeam]

My grandparents raised a middle class family on a single blue collar income, including OWNING a house and land, and retirement, plus some.


Cant be done now.

[Easy 6]

Peak-aboo

[Easy 6]

What's your definition?


I'm an optimist. I think American civilization is still on an upward path at a steady state. Our science is gamebreaking on a technology and science front, and our culture and language...

Our science is no doubt two generations ahead of the competition at this point, from jet fighters to space craft to telephones yes, we still rule.

Our IDEALS, where we intend to go, what we intend to uphold, WHO we intend to be in the modern world... that's a whole nother ballgame, America is losing the moral high ground with each passing day, IMO.

[Easy 6]

Depends on who you ask. Old bitter white guys will certainly tell you that this country is in steep decline. Everyone else will probably say it's ascending.

(Que Prison Bitch with his comments on gays and dems)

Gay bashers and religion haters aside... ascending to what?

[Katipan]

Our IDEALS, where we intend to go, what we intend to uphold, WHO we intend to be in the modern world... that's a whole nother ballgame, America is losing the moral high ground with each passing day, IMO.

Sounds like a teenager to me.

[Easy 6]

Sounds like a teenager to me.

Sounds like the chewy taste of truth to me.

America is starting to believe its own hype, like Pete Carroll writ way large IMO, its time to recognize that while our national charter is and always will be the world ideal... we don't always hold to our own "deeply held" values.

I still choose America over the others, but we need to be held to our own standards these days, IMO.

[DaFace]

My grandparents raised a middle class family on a single blue collar income, including OWNING a house and land, and retirement, plus some.


Cant be done now.

The issue with these types of statements is that they ignore that our perceptions about what a quality life is have changed dramatically compared to the "good old days". Cut the average house size in half, fix your own car, stop eating out, grow food in a garden, get rid of cable, internet, etc., and it wouldn't be as hard as you'd think. Sure, you'd be bored out of your mind, but people used to be perfectly content with sitting around and telling stories and reading books for entertainment.

It also ignores the fact that (I'm assuming) you're talking about a middle-class white family. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many minority families who would agree that life was better back then than it is now.

[Shaid]

I think we're descending slightly but will get our heads out of our asses in 20 years or so and start turning it around.

[Easy 6]

So, just be cool with an upcoming austerity program for the most industrious nation on earth, DaFace?

Not trying to be a smart alice, just wondering why one of the worlds true superpowers, and one of its honest to God most hardworking as far as hours per week and standards that are expected to be met, why are we expected to just "deal with it".

This nations tax dollars, compiled by the worlds most exacting tax system that ensures everyone pays their share (LOL), this nation that gives more to every disaster around the world by a factor of 10... why should we just suffer through the loss of jobs that helped make us strong in the first place?

We give and give and give... yet when this nation needs help its just "welp, time to tighten your belts John Boy", make due with beans and pigs feet 7 days a week like my grandparents did in the depression?

Its globalism and I'm tired of it, a lot of other people are as well... America seems to have become a big fat titty to suck on.

[Bugeater]

The issue with these types of statements is that they ignore that our perceptions about what a quality life is have changed dramatically compared to the "good old days". Cut the average house size in half, fix your own car, stop eating out, grow food in a garden, get rid of cable, internet, etc., and it wouldn't be as hard as you'd think. Sure, you'd be bored out of your mind, but people used to be perfectly content with sitting around and telling stories and reading books for entertainment.

It also ignores the fact that (I'm assuming) you're talking about a middle-class white family. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many minority families who would agree that life was better back then than it is now.
YOU SHUT THE HELL UP AND GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN

[GordonGekko]

I think we are stable, but a great symbol of the current state of the health of the economy of the US can be seen in the rebuilding of ground zero in NYC. It's been 13 years since 9/11 and they still haven't got any of the large towers open yet, and two of the towers proposed have been pushed back/postponed in construction due to the lack of anchor tenants. I think it says everything about what is going on in the US right now.

[Easy 6]

Broke and divided about the right path forward, yeah that sound right, GG.

[GordonGekko]

Our science is no doubt two generations ahead of the competition at this point, from jet fighters to space craft to telephones yes, we still rule.

Our IDEALS, where we intend to go, what we intend to uphold, WHO we intend to be in the modern world... that's a whole nother ballgame, America is losing the moral high ground with each passing day, IMO.

Jet fighters don't mean much in the world of ballistic missiles and nukes. Our space program has ground to a complete halt, to where we are 'farming out' the launching of our astronauts to other national space programs. Most android phones are from foreign manufacturers, and the iPhone is only designed in the US, but build across the Pacific. How is this ruling?

[Easy 6]

Its a fringe subject and I wont bother this thread with it GG, but I'm not convinced we don't have manned/unmanned, advanced propulsion craft already ruling the hell out of nearby space.

[GloucesterChief]

America has nukes and two oceans for defense so I wouldn't worry about being invaded.

We are on a slow decline that could be reversed if we have the government step back and start undoing the chains it has been put on the productive impulses of the citizenry.

We aren't going to go out with a bang like the European powers with two World Wars but probably slide into the position that the UK, France, and Germany are in now. Still a power but not a superpower.

[ThaVirus]

The issue with these types of statements is that they ignore that our perceptions about what a quality life is have changed dramatically compared to the "good old days". Cut the average house size in half, fix your own car, stop eating out, grow food in a garden, get rid of cable, internet, etc., and it wouldn't be as hard as you'd think. Sure, you'd be bored out of your mind, but people used to be perfectly content with sitting around and telling stories and reading books for entertainment.



It also ignores the fact that (I'm assuming) you're talking about a middle-class white family. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many minority families who would agree that life was better back then than it is now.


Well said.

[LiveSteam]

I dnt know where were headed, But if in 2016 the American people are stuck with voting for another Bush or Clinton. I say fuck it & declare the winner king or queen & be done with it.

[notorious]

JFC

We are constantly making medical and technological breakthroughs. We can travel anywhere on the Earth within a short amount of time, and communicate through many different means with nearly anyone on the world. We are living longer and under better conditions than any previous generations.




Declining? GMAFB

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Many of the same things that befell the Romans have happened to the United States. The United States will continue to exist, but much like the British Empire in the 20th century, it's preeminence on the world stage will not

[Gadzooks]

Currently 2 people have voted for "I don't really following the grand sweep of history"
Since it's out of 94 votes, I guess the future of American Civilization is not that bad off?

(the question mark is a typo)

[Simply Red]

Read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Many of the same things that befell the Romans have happened to the United States. The United States will continue to exist, but much like the British Empire in the 20th century, it's preeminence on the world stage will not

we have to end apartheid, for one,

slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger.

We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless...

and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights,

while also promoting equal rights for women.

We have to encourage a return...

to traditional moral values.

Most importantly,

we have to promote general social concern...

and less materialism in young people.

[notorious]

We have to encourage a return...

to traditional moral values.
.



This is something that has always baffled me. I believe that moral values have remained constant throughout history.


It seems worse now because nothing is private anymore. Info travels quickly.

[Gadzooks]

This is something that has always baffled me. I believe that moral values have remained constant throughout history.


It seems worse now because nothing is private anymore. Info travels quickly.

My Grandpa never used to hear about High School shootings back in the 30's 'cause they didn't have facebook.

[LiveSteam]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TZBTyTWOZCM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[blaise]

Depends on who you ask. Old bitter white guys will certainly tell you that this country is in steep decline. Everyone else will probably say it's ascending.

(Que Prison Bitch with his comments on gays and dems)

I don't know about that. I hear a lot about us running out of resources and how our middle class and poor are living worse than ever before from people that aren't old and white.

[blaise]

I think a general answer is if your guy is President we're ascending.
If the other party's guy is President we're on the brink of disaster.

[Discuss Thrower]

I think a general answer is if your guy is President we're ascending.
If the other party's guy is President we're on the brink of disaster.

Which is evidence why we're trending downward.

Neither party will cooperate with the other because cable TV and internet discussion boards have equated compromise with the domestic equivalent of Quisling-esque appeasement.

No, the average Republican doesn't want women foot-bound and pregnant in the kitchen whilst advocating the euthanization of every children thought not to like the opposite gender or bearing dark skin.

No, the average Democrat isn't going to take your guns, car and home to give to drug addicts for the sake of fairness and isn't ready to take a coat hanger to any woman who expresses the smallest doubt about being a mother.

Yet that's how each side views its opposite in the political arena -Americans equate everything that doesn't jive perfectly with how the country should be run as an active attempt to destroy the system. Philosophically everyone wants the same goal: a better lives for themselves and their neighbors, but, by the same token, everyone has a different idea about how to go achieving that goal.

[LiveSteam]

Yaa,when they work together, we get screwed even harder. I love gridlock

[nstygma]

This is something that has always baffled me. I believe that moral values have remained constant throughout history.


It seems worse now because nothing is private anymore. Info travels quickly.What about the massacres in Sri Lanka? Doesn't that affect us too? Do you know anything about Sri Lanka?

[Tacoman]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sits around and thinks about this stuff.

I think there are a lot of facets to this debate, technologically we have an upward trajectory that is ridiculously awesome, but I have a hard time equating that with success as a civilization so much as our point in the timeline which inevitably moves upward as time moves along. I think success as a civilization has more to do with quality of life than being THE superpower, so even though the US has declined in it's global power to a certain degree it hasn't changed enough to really impact QOL quotient too much. Obviously if the US changes into 3rd world status etc etc this will no longer hold true.

Whether we are trending up or down is beyond my scope of understanding, but I do know what really makes me sad about our society.

What the hell happened to food being central to our community and our family structure?? Breaking bread, raising crops, community food gatherings, all these things have been central parts of human culture since the dawn of civilization. Now it seems it has become something that nobody has time for, and the food comes through the car window while we run along to "more important" things. I think the lack of spending time as families together at the dinner table is probably the biggest cause of our cultural degradation by a long shot. If it were to make a comeback we would see lot less domestic dispute, crime, and drug abuse.

Just my two cents.
Part of the reason why I love this board so much is to see everyone talk about what they made for dinner last night, or how awesome KC BBQ is, or of course entire threads dedicated to tacos!

[Gonzo]

History repeats itself every couple generations. The country was headed towards the shitter in the 30's. Bread lines, unemployment, suicides etc. Then Pearl Harbor came on along and we pulled our heads out if our asses.

Let's see what happens here in the next few years. What's our natl. debt now? I'm sure the White House is checking the caller ID whenever the phone rings around dinner time.

[Jimmya]

Well I'm certainly praying for an upward swing!

[Fish]

So, just be cool with an upcoming austerity program for the most industrious nation on earth, DaFace?

Not trying to be a smart alice, just wondering why one of the worlds true superpowers, and one of its honest to God most hardworking as far as hours per week and standards that are expected to be met, why are we expected to just "deal with it".

This nations tax dollars, compiled by the worlds most exacting tax system that ensures everyone pays their share (LOL), this nation that gives more to every disaster around the world by a factor of 10... why should we just suffer through the loss of jobs that helped make us strong in the first place?

We give and give and give... yet when this nation needs help its just "welp, time to tighten your belts John Boy", make due with beans and pigs feet 7 days a week like my grandparents did in the depression?

Its globalism and I'm tired of it, a lot of other people are as well... America seems to have become a big fat titty to suck on.

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

[DaFace]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

Solid post. Would read again.

[Tacoman]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

:thumbsup:

[Easy 6]

Oh well.

[Predarat]

I voter "We peaked in the last two or three generations, and we're descending.". I think it could start ascending soon, but if the stupid government doubles the H1Bs that will all but destroy what is left of the middle class and it will descend further.

[JakeLV]

I think we peaked a few generations ago.

I'm part of this new generation mind you, in my mid-twenties, but I'm constantly blown away by how entitled they are. They want and want, but don't want to work to get where they're going.


That piss-poor work ethic, combined with this cynical attitude towards everything makes me think that it's just a matter of time before we're England.

But then again, we didn't start the fire, so who knows.

[Graystoke]

I am optimistic. I think we are ascending. For how long? Who knows?
Eventually ,Entropy, the universal tendency toward disorder, disorganization, disintegration and chaos will occur.
All organized systems tend to disorganize and all great civilizations eventually fall apart.
We will not be immune from this.

[blaise]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

I agree with a lot of that. I realize this is bringing DC over here, but if you're in DC and read posters like loneiguana you'd think we're a 3rd world nation.

[Bearcat]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

A friend got back from a 2 year stay in Kenya a few months ago, and hearing the stories is not only proof of all of this, it's like time travel... corporal punishment, the lack of respect for women, makeshift schools with lazy and often absent teachers, 20 mile trips that can take 2+ hours one way, needing to be extra productive before the electricity goes out, washing clothes in buckets.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/uEY58fiSK8E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bugeater]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.
How is it selfish to be upset that people are being handed the same things that the rest of us work for?

[ModSocks]

Which is evidence why we're trending downward.

Neither party will cooperate with the other because cable TV and internet discussion boards have equated compromise with the domestic equivalent of Quisling-esque appeasement.

No, the average Republican doesn't want women foot-bound and pregnant in the kitchen whilst advocating the euthanization of every children thought not to like the opposite gender or bearing dark skin.

No, the average Democrat isn't going to take your guns, car and home to give to drug addicts for the sake of fairness and isn't ready to take a coat hanger to any woman who expresses the smallest doubt about being a mother.

Yet that's how each side views its opposite in the political arena -Americans equate everything that doesn't jive perfectly with how the country should be run as an active attempt to destroy the system. Philosophically everyone wants the same goal: a better lives for themselves and their neighbors, but, by the same token, everyone has a different idea about how to go achieving that goal.

Pretty much this.

[ModSocks]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

Killed it. I'd rep you, but fuck you, you have enough of it already.

[Fish]

How is it selfish to be upset that people are being handed the same things that the rest of us work for?

How does that not fit the definition?

selfish

1.(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

[Rain Man]

I think the discussion about standard of living is quite interesting, because I agree that we take our rather phenomenal standard of living for granted. As a nation, we've pretty much nailed the part about what we need to live, and now our focus is on living well.

Standard of living is just one measure of ascendancy or decline, though it's an important one. I've read some stuff in the past about whether each generation is doing better than their parents, and some of the recent stuff puts the modern generation behind their parents in measures like home ownership and debt. I'll acknowledge that, but it also seems like homes are larger and toys are better and all sorts of other things are better. It would be hard to convince me that we're not still ascending as a society in that respect, with no particular crest in sight.

A key will be to not screw it up. How much of our ascendancy is the result of big deficit spending that's going to blow up at some point? How much of it is a fluke of the World War II destruction of other industrialized nations? How much of it is ingrained in the American system of government and economy?

[Rain Man]

I'm now wondering how you measure the ascendancy/decline of a civilization. I would offer a few measures off the top of my head. Anyone else got any suggestions?

1. Standard of living of the middle class in absolute terms (not relative to other classes or nations).
2. Standard of living of the poorest 5% in absolute terms (not relative to other classes or nations).
3. Maybe it's part of 1 and 2, but the cost and reliability of infrastructure - transportation, communication, sanitation, energy, etc.
4. Discovery - Is the civilization finding new resources to exploit, whether it's technology or land or something else?
5. Art and creativity - is there a sustained tolerance and appreciation of creativity?
6. Morale - are people optimistic about the future and wanting to contribute to it?
7. Life span - Maybe it's part of 1 and 2, but are people living long and healthy lives?

What else?

[ClevelandBronco]

I will be pleased to see the current version of the U.S. fail spectacularly. Greatest blueprint ever, but we let the contractors become corrupt.

[KC native]

I'm now wondering how you measure the ascendancy/decline of a civilization. I would offer a few measures off the top of my head. Anyone else got any suggestions?

1. Standard of living of the middle class in absolute terms (not relative to other classes or nations).
2. Standard of living of the poorest 5% in absolute terms (not relative to other classes or nations).
3. Maybe it's part of 1 and 2, but the cost and reliability of infrastructure - transportation, communication, sanitation, energy, etc.
4. Discovery - Is the civilization finding new resources to exploit, whether it's technology or land or something else?
5. Art and creativity - is there a sustained tolerance and appreciation of creativity?
6. Morale - are people optimistic about the future and wanting to contribute to it?
7. Life span - Maybe it's part of 1 and 2, but are people living long and healthy lives?

What else?

Quality of the prOn

[Sully]

Socially: We are nearing our peak. I think as we keep angling toward more inclusion in most discussions, many of the issues of bigotry and rancor for the sake of rancor will diminish. It will never completely disappear, and there will be high and low tides, but I think we are inching toward a plateau.

Technologically/ intelligence: We are nowhere near our peak, and we aren't even really at a place where we can imagine what that peak is going to look like. Education is ever-changing, and many of the changes are just running in place, but there have been, even over the past 10 years, some monumental advances in how we educate, and I think we will continue to do better, which means better products to make the tomorrows more advanced.

Governmentally: There is no such thing as a perfect economic/governing system. There will always be flaws. I don't know if we are ascending our descending, but we will keep experimenting and trying and wiping the slate clean and starting over, IMO, for the rest of human existence.

[Jimmya]

What about the decline of manufacturing jobs..... Will they ever come back to the United States?

[Predarat]

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/mimajki/Feedback%20gifs%202/tumblr_m5buc2jMzU1qepf8yo1_r1_500.gif

[Strongside]

The results of this poll will speak more to the average age of planeteers than anything else.

[Rain Man]

What about the decline of manufacturing jobs..... Will they ever come back to the United States?

Do they have to?

If we hit the point where robots can do the manufacturing, there won't be manufacturing jobs anywhere. But goods will be so cheap that we'll replace those jobs with poetry jobs and skateboarding jobs.

This ties in to my radical theory that I proposed a while back. We dream of a Jetsons world where machines do all the work and people live lives of leisure. There's going to be an order in which society moves down that path, and perhaps the order is not what we think.

An easy initial assumption is that the upper classes would enter the life of leisure first. They have more income or wealth to do so.

The truly rich have always lived lives of leisure, but perhaps the second group to enter that world is the unskilled. The skilled are needed to design the robots and machines (including the robots and machines that make robots and machines). The unskilled don't have a role. So they enter a life of leisure made possible by high incomes of the skilled and the cheap goods made by the robots. Their life of leisure may be at a lower standard than the skilled, but it's still a high standard of living by objective standards. They have big-screen TVs and smart phones and stuff.

Over time, as the required skill level increases and the need for even skilled labor decreases, the remaining workers make more and more money, and more people enter the leisure class. Those who don't work have a reasonable standard of living that improves over time as technology continues to develop, and they essentially become the new middle class. Those who still work have a very high standard of living.

In the end game, the technology becomes completely self-sufficient and no one works. They all just watch robo-TV and eat at robo-Chilis and play in bands on the weekends.

[Pablo]

I think a general answer is if your guy is President we're ascending.
If the other party's guy is President we're on the brink of disaster.This is most certainly true.

[Rausch]

I'd guess our peak was somewhere in the 60's as far as "empires" go...

[Predarat]

Do they have to?

If we hit the point where robots can do the manufacturing, there won't be manufacturing jobs anywhere. But goods will be so cheap that we'll replace those jobs with poetry jobs and skateboarding jobs.

This ties in to my radical theory that I proposed a while back. We dream of a Jetsons world where machines do all the work and people live lives of leisure. There's going to be an order in which society moves down that path, and perhaps the order is not what we think.

An easy initial assumption is that the upper classes would enter the life of leisure first. They have more income or wealth to do so.

The truly rich have always lived lives of leisure, but perhaps the second group to enter that world is the unskilled. The skilled are needed to design the robots and machines (including the robots and machines that make robots and machines). The unskilled don't have a role. So they enter a life of leisure made possible by high incomes of the skilled and the cheap goods made by the robots. Their life of leisure may be at a lower standard than the skilled, but it's still a high standard of living by objective standards. They have big-screen TVs and smart phones and stuff.

Over time, as the required skill level increases and the need for even skilled labor decreases, the remaining workers make more and more money, and more people enter the leisure class. Those who don't work have a reasonable standard of living that improves over time as technology continues to develop, and they essentially become the new middle class. Those who still work have a very high standard of living.

In the end game, the technology becomes completely self-sufficient and no one works. They all just watch robo-TV and eat at robo-Chilis and play in bands on the weekends.

That means we will all get fat like in that movie Wall-E. Omaha is going to hate that.

[oldandslow]

Historically, the US ranked in the top 15 of all nations in math and science scores of its youth. The year before NCLB the US ranked 18.

Today, 31st...and dropping.

Don't talk to me about my age if you cannot add.

Yeah, we're descending.

[ptlyon]

The math of the young folk these days is just fine.

They know exactly what the cost of a dime bag is.

[mikey23545]

How is it selfish to be upset that people are being handed the same things that the rest of us work for?

How does that not fit the definition?

selfish

1.(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

:spock:

[Bugeater]

How does that not fit the definition?

selfish

1.(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Do you enjoy paying your income taxes and health insurance premiums?

[WhiteWhale]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

Something I say when I'm feeling like complaining about my lot in life:

"Well, I don't have it that bad. I shit in clean water."

[Fish]

Do you enjoy paying your income taxes and health insurance premiums?

Enjoyment isn't a way I would describe it.

[Bugeater]

Enjoyment isn't a way I would describe it.
I sure don't when I know that a chunk of each of them are going to fund the people who don't want to make any effort in life. If that means I'm selfish so be it then, I won't apologize for it.

[Zebedee DuBois]

I guess I am an optimist. I think we are improving every single decade, every single year, every single day.

I cannot think of a time in history where we have been in a better overall position than we are right now.- for the largest amount of people.

I think a lot of people do not have a concept of how much disparity there was in our past. Sure we had rich people and middle class, but we had vast swaths of abject poverty too.

We have brought the low end of our spectrum up, an I think that is an achievement that benefits us all. More and more segments of our society are now able to join the middle class and that benefits us all.

And I'm an old fat rich white guy.

[Katipan]

I guess I am an optimist. I think we are improving every single decade, every single year, every single day.

I cannot think of a time in history where we have been in a better overall position than we are right now.- for the largest amount of people.

I think a lot of people do not have a concept of how much disparity there was in our past. Sure we had rich people and middle class, but we had vast swaths of abject poverty too.

We have brought the low end of our spectrum up, an I think that is an achievement that benefits us all. More and more segments of our society are now able to join the middle class and that benefits us all.

And I'm an old fat rich white guy.

That's hot.

[Zebedee DuBois]

That's hot.

And we are living in the golden age of craft beer availability.

Some people say they want to "take America back" Back to where and when?

I am not giving up my Espresso Oak Aged Yeti Imperial Stout!!!!

[Rain Man]

That's hot.

Be honest. It was the "rich" part, wasn't it?

[Katipan]

Be honest. It was the "rich" part, wasn't it?

Rich (like beauty) isn't nearly as attractive as charm.

Did I sound sincere? I typed that a few times in the mirror.

[Rain Man]

Rich (like beauty) isn't nearly as attractive as charm.

Did I sound sincere? I typed that a few times in the mirror.

If true of all women, this is bad news. I at least have a fighting shot at being labeled rich.

[Zebedee DuBois]

If true of all women, this is bad news. I at least have a fighting shot at being labeled rich.

You're probably rich - most of us are richer than we think. Our perception is a bit warped by the media.

I found this little Rich-o-meter on a Wall Street Journal blog: http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/RICHMETER1107/
you can plug in either a salary or a net worth, and it will rank against the US data. ( I think the data is a few years old)

when I first saw this, I thought it couldn't be accurate- I mean - look at all the doctors everywhere and they should all be richer than I am. I googled it and doctors only make up 0.3% of the population. The 14 Walmart heirs have as much money as the bottom 40 million americans. That really warps the numbers.

[Zebedee DuBois]

and Katipan....I appreciate the flirt.:Pimp:

[Rain Man]

You're probably rich - most of us are richer than we think. Our perception is a bit warped by the media.

I found this little Rich-o-meter on a Wall Street Journal blog: http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/RICHMETER1107/
you can plug in either a salary or a net worth, and it will rank against the US data. ( I think the data is a few years old)

when I first saw this, I thought it couldn't be accurate- I mean - look at all the doctors everywhere and they should all be richer than I am. I googled it and doctors only make up 0.3% of the population. The 14 Walmart heirs have as much money as the bottom 40 million americans. That really warps the numbers.

Hmm, so to be a 1%er, I need either a net worth of $8.4 million or an income of $507,000. Let me go count.

[notorious]

Hmm, so to be a 1%er, I need either a net worth of $8.4 million or an income of $507,000. Let me go count.

Don't forget to check under the couch cushions.

[RJ]

I'd wager that the results of this poll would have looked the same 100 years ago and would still look the same 100 years from now.

[Zebedee DuBois]

I'd wager that the results of this poll would have looked the same 100 years ago and would still look the same 100 years from now.

I would not bet against you. (and good to 'see' you. I am wiping out my yearly allotment of 25 posts in this thread tonight)

[Hammock Parties]

We haven't fully technologized (a word I just invented) our society yet.

We're getting there. I'd say we're 60-65 percent there. A lot of the old infrastructure needs to be replaced.

When we get to 100 percent, we'll experience a period of great success. Our society will be almost Utopian.

Then the decline will begin. Almost imperceptibly. Gradually. At some point it will all come crashing down. Perhaps because of war. Civil war, even.

It'll be cool.

[TimeForWasp]

I'm just glad your stick man can do jumping jacks.

[Hammock Parties]

I'd guess our peak was somewhere in the 60's as far as "empires" go...

Disagree. But that was the beginning of our ascent.

[Hammock Parties]

I'm guessing the next 50 years are going to be badass. About 2050 everything is going to be super fucking awesome.

From 2050-2125 or so we will have reached the height of our success as a nation.

Then something really bad will happen. Probably some asshole with a super weapon or something, plunging us back into a dark age (relatively speaking).

I plan to die about 2075 so all good with me.

[Hammock Parties]

That's assuming we can't transfer human brains into robot bodies by then. If that happens I'm sticking around as a cyborg.

[Mrs. Loopner]

Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

Don't forget lazy and fat. Too lazy to turn on car blinkers or they're selfishly holding their cell phone.
Fat because they're too lazy to cook a healthy meal so they eat the cheap, horribly unhealthy fast food.

Lazy, fat and selfish will get you zero military defense. It'll be easy overtaking those attractive bunch of individuals. Just show them a McDonald's menu.

"Mission: Readiness' report, "Too Fat to Fight," said that 75 percent of young Americans between the ages of 17 to 24 do not qualify for the military because of failure to graduate [from high school], criminal records or physical problems. The study cited Department of Defense and health data."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/20/military.fat.fight/ sorry if Q

[Hammock Parties]

Don't forget lazy and fat. Too lazy to turn on car blinkers or they're selfishly holding their cell phone.
Fat because they're too lazy to cook a healthy meal so they eat the cheap, horribly unhealthy fast food.

Lazy, fat and selfish will get you zero military defense. It'll be easy overtaking those attractive bunch of individuals. Just show them a McDonald's menu.

"Mission: Readiness' report, "Too Fat to Fight," said that 75 percent of young Americans between the ages of 17 to 24 do not qualify for the military because of failure to graduate [from high school], criminal records or physical problems. The study cited Department of Defense and health data."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/20/military.fat.fight/ sorry if Q

Eventually technology and the health care industry will invent a simple, cheap way for everyone to be really fit all the time.

Depending on how the political landscape changes, liberals may legislate fast food out of existence.

[Hammock Parties]

The bread is running out... and the circuses bore me.

Definitely nearing the end.

LMAO

[Hammock Parties]

We are #70 in healthcare in the world. We are way past descending.

That doesn't mean shit. Survival of the fittest.

Frankly, the herd needs culling.

[Mrs. Loopner]

Eventually technology and the health care industry will invent a simple, cheap way for everyone to be really fit all the time.

Depending on how the political landscape changes, liberals may legislate fast food out of existence.

Soylent Green then eh? :)

[Hammock Parties]

I'm guessing eventually we'll have things like 10-calorie slices of chocolate cake.

Going to be an awesome time to be alive.

[Mrs. Loopner]

I'm guessing eventually we'll have things like 10-calorie slices of chocolate cake.

Going to be an awesome time to be alive.

You forgot magically delicious.

[Rain Man]

I'm guessing eventually we'll have things like 10-calorie slices of chocolate cake.

Going to be an awesome time to be alive.


Or a negative-calorie cake. That way you can eat a burger and fries and then neutralize it with cake. We need to work on that.

[Hammock Parties]

You forgot magically delicious.

So far society has aped Star Trek technology decades before it was actually supposed to be realized.

I'm pretty confident before I die a computer will be materializing 10-calorie slices of chocolate cake before me.

[Hammock Parties]

Or a negative-calorie cake. That way you can eat a burger and fries and then neutralize it with cake. We need to work on that.

Of course, because people won't eat every meal from the replicators. Restaurants offering "traditional" food will be incredibly popularized during this golden age. They'll be very trendy, with hipsters claiming "it just tastes better," or "I have replicator food allergies," or "FUCK THE FAKE FOOD INDUSTRY."

[Hammock Parties]

A burger and fries "like your mom made" in 2099 will cost $500.

[Katipan]

Or a negative-calorie cake. That way you can eat a burger and fries and then neutralize it with cake. We need to work on that.

All we need is a president to declare it a national priority and it'll be like Truman and all those extra planes we weren't supposed to be able to build.

But probably not this president.

[Mrs. Loopner]

So far society has aped Star Trek technology decades before it was actually supposed to be realized.

I'm pretty confident before I die a computer will be materializing 10-calorie slices of chocolate cake before me.

Beam me up Baggins!

[Rain Man]

All we need is a president to declare it a national priority and it'll be like Truman and all those extra planes we weren't supposed to be able to build.

But probably not this president.


I bet Chris Christie could win the election with this as his platform. He's exactly the man who could lead this from dream to reality.

[Mrs. Loopner]

Or a negative-calorie cake. That way you can eat a burger and fries and then neutralize it with cake. We need to work on that.

Can we work on zero calorie alcohol first?

[Rain Man]

Can we work on zero calorie alcohol first?

Politically, I think it would be easier to build a movement around ending childhood obesity with the cake thing.

[Katipan]

Can we work on zero calorie alcohol first?

Cue Rob Ford's platform.

[Hammock Parties]

Replicator food will, of course, be linked to cancer.

[Mrs. Loopner]

Cue Rob Ford's platform.

LMAOLMAOLMAO

[Valiant]

Lets see,

Rise of corporations controlling interests of the country. Effecting politicians to increase profit stream. Too big to fail bailout companies. Erosion of constitutional rights.

American businesses selling out to overseas companies for quick profits. Technology boom, which while nice, each tech generation will lessen people powered workforce. In turn fewer jobs with increasing population.

Building a dependent lower class on the government that is now generations deep and proud of it.

For profit colleges.

Now, the Y generation did not build it. But I do not see them as the group to stop it.

[SPATCH]

America is probably declining in terms of geopolitical influence, but I'm not sure if that's really the best way to judge a civilization. If we're all riding horses again in 50 years, I'll say we declined.

Riding horses might be kinda dope, actually.

[Pepe Silvia]

Pretty soon only the wealthy will be able to afford water.

[C3HIEF3S]

Replicator food will, of course, be linked to cancer.

Hopefully by then cancer will be reduced down to a seasonal sickness that can be treated and cured in no time... one can only dream.

[cdcox]

It's kinda funny to me, to see what the US has created and how people perceive it. We've created a nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where the overwhelming majority never actually experiences true poverty or hunger. A nation where those in "Poverty" still own such pleasures as cars, TVs with hundreds of channels, Xbox/PS3, smartphones, etc. A nation where everyone has health care no matter what. We have systems to care for others who cannot care for themselves.

There's very little actual poverty in America. Not true poverty. Those in poverty in America live like royalty compared to some other parts of the world. Yet all we ever hear is people bitching about other Americans getting things they don't think those other people deserve. You hear more bitching of that type these days, than you hear about what we don't have. Yet we don't stop and think about what a good thing it is that Americans don't have to bitch about having unclean drinking water, or moldy and rotten food, or lack of electricity, or no health care at all, or actual real government oppression.

Nope, we sit here on our thrones, and type into our smartphones that have internet access nearly everywhere we go, while enjoying a diversity of cheap food, clean water, organized infrastructure, etc. While bitching about poor people getting a couple hundred dollars worth of free food.

America has become a nation of selfish unappreciative assholes who bitch all day while never realizing how easy of a life they live compared with much of the rest of the world.

I'm solidly in the top half or the optimism spectrum on this poll, but...

* Our Seniors in Civil Engineering are working on a capstone project that would bring reliable safe drinking water to a community, but they would still have to drive to the treatment plant to truck water to their homes. In other words, even after a major upgrade to their water system, they still would not have clean running water in their homes.

* The bottom 15% of Americans only have health care in the life and death situations or when they can get access to free/subsidized health care. 45 million Americans.

* We are importing our scientific and engineering brain power. Native-born Americans make up an increasingly smaller share of the students in graduate programs in science and engineering. Our K-12 educational system has been lagging behind for decades. That just isn't going to lead to a world leading economy in the long term.

* There will never again be opportunity for the average unskilled, an uneducated American to support above the poverty line. We have a metric shit ton of these people. The poverty line for a family of 4 is around $23K, while the median individual income is around $27K. When grouped into households, 15% are below the poverty line for this $23K benchmark.

[007]

This is ChiefsPlanet. Of course, the sky is falling.

[Discuss Thrower]

This is ChiefsPlanet. Of course, the sky is falling.

Look at the last two items on cdcox's list. This isn't a stereotypical CP worry here...

[007]

Look at the last two items on cdcox's list. This isn't a stereotypical CP worry here...

My post was in jest of the OP and nothing more.