Bob Sutton

[milkman]

I have asked this in threads before, and I get no legitimate response, so I am going to start this thread.

Over and over, and over again, people keep saying that Sutton made no adjustments, and is responsible for the failures of this defense.

I have no dog in this, but I want to know, what exactly do you think he could do?

This defense was playing spectacularly for the first 5-6 games, but then Buffalo, Houston and the Donkeys had enough film to recognize that they could exploit the deep zones because Kendrick Lewis was almost always in the wrong place, and they adjusted their game plans to take full advantage.

Sutton tried to counter that by moving the corners off the line, which allowed offenses to exploit the short passing game and minimize the pass rush, which was also affected by the loss of Houston to injury, and a less than 100% Hali.

The one critisism that is completely valid is that Sutton did not utilize a rotaion on the line that kept Poe fresh, and he was not the same player for the 2nd half of the season that he was for the first half, because he was just worn out.

So, again, I ask, given the limitations of the talent, what exactly did you expect Sutton to do?

[KC native]

So, again, I ask, given the limitations of the talent, what exactly did you expect Sutton to do?

to make the defense not suck.

[htismaqe]

Perhaps he didn't rotate Poe because the guys behind him are crap.

This team has no depth.

[Simply Red]

Having Jeff Linkenbach on the field will rest our D.


GO CHIEFS!!!!

[RealSNR]

It's quite simple.

Replace Kendrick Lewis.

[WhawhaWhat]

Not have the worst defense in the league.

[KC native]

to make the defense not suck.

It's quite simple.

Replace Kendrick Lewis.

Q

[BigMeatballDave]

I complained about Sutton when the D went into the shitter.

Then, I realized that maybe they just need to play better.

[milkman]

It's quite simple.

Replace Kendrick Lewis.

That's the first order of business, but it isn't quite that simple.

We need an ILB alongside DJ who isn't absolutely useless in pass coverage, and more pressure from at least 1 of the DEs.

That ILB, though, would really allow Sutton, if he does have the chops, to really maximize Berry's versatility.

[Bowser]

Sutton caught the most shit after the playoff game. His refusal to play deep coverage was infuriating, especially watching TY Hilton torch us play after play. Other than that, milk is spot on here, and this is coming from a guy that wanted Sutton's head on a spike initially.

That gif showing Luck hitting Hilton for the dagger TD against us with Kendrick Lewis and Dunta Robinson in "hot" pursuit 10 yards behind is all you need to see to explain why our D ssucked so bad in the second half of the season last year.

[Bowser]

That's the first order of business, but it isn't quite that simple.

We need an ILB alongside DJ who isn't absolutely useless in pass coverage, and more pressure from at least 1 of the DEs.

That ILB, though, would really allow Sutton, if he does have the chops, to really maximize Berry's versatility.

I agree. While I have been wanting us to take either a receiver or safety tomorrow, I would feel pretty good if we snatched up Kyle Van Noy. He can be your other ILB, even if he can play outside. The guy really is that talented.

[RealSNR]

That's the first order of business, but it isn't quite that simple.

We need an ILB alongside DJ who isn't absolutely useless in pass coverage, and more pressure from at least 1 of the DEs.

That ILB, though, would really allow Sutton, if he does have the chops, to really maximize Berry's versatility.

Right, but I'm talking about last year.

If Lewis were benched, and Abdullah replaced him as teams like Houston and Buffalo started to figure us out, I'll bet Sutton never would have played the corners off the line, and we could actually press the shit out of Denver's receivers successfully.

I still don't know if the Indy game would have had the same result, but it at least would have deflected so much fan criticism away from Sutton. You wouldn't see such an abysmal product on the field for the second half of the year.

People are on my ass about this, but if we trade down from 23, Kyle Van Noy should absolutely be a consideration, where he can be the primary backup to Hali and the starter at ILB next to DJ when he's not. He would provide interior pressure and coverage skills that Mays, Jordan, and Belcher never had.

[RealSNR]

I agree. While I have been wanting us to take either a receiver or safety tomorrow, I would feel pretty good if we snatched up Kyle Van Noy. He can be your other ILB, even if he can play outside. The guy really is that talented.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD

[BigMeatballDave]

Sutton caught the most shit after the playoff game. His refusal to play deep coverage was infuriating, especially watching TY Hilton torch us play after play. Other than that, milk is spot on here, and this is coming from a guy that wanted Sutton's head on a spike initially.

That gif showing Luck hitting Hilton for the dagger TD against us with Kendrick Lewis and Dunta Robinson in "hot" pursuit 10 yards behind is all you need to see to explain why our D ssucked so bad in the second half of the season last year.

I believe Hilton began torching the D when Flowers went out.

Right?

[Simply Red]

I'm cooling it w/ my insider posts.

I never get comments on my fresh football mind.

You all can screw off! I'm bumping the Fried Chicken thread!

[OldSchool]

Sutton caught the most shit after the playoff game. His refusal to play deep coverage was infuriating, especially watching TY Hilton torch us play after play. Other than that, milk is spot on here, and this is coming from a guy that wanted Sutton's head on a spike initially.

That gif showing Luck hitting Hilton for the dagger TD against us with Kendrick Lewis and Dunta Robinson in "hot" pursuit 10 yards behind is all you need to see to explain why our D ssucked so bad in the second half of the season last year.

That was the big problem, he simply didn't have the depth to effectively run the type of defense that he wanted to run. He stuck two guys on Hilton and still got burned. In that situation though, with Flowers going down, I would have shifted Berry over to cover Hilton and let a combination of Abdullah and DJ take limit the effectiveness of Fleener.

[htismaqe]

That was the big problem, he simply didn't have the depth to effectively run the type of defense that he wanted to run. He stuck two guys on Hilton and still got burned. In that situation though, with Flowers going down, I would have shifted Berry over to cover Hilton and let a combination of Abdullah and DJ take limit the effectiveness of Fleener.

Just goes to show you how utterly silly it is to talk about trading Eric Berry...

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Need to draft a pass-rusher at #23.

[OldSchool]

Just goes to show you how utterly silly it is to talk about trading Eric Berry...

I hope that his talk about improving in pass coverage this year is more than just talk though.

[Bowser]

GET OUT OF MY HEADLMAO Scary, isn't it?

I believe Hilton began torching the D when Flowers went out.

Right?Absolutely he did. I was mad when he kept putting Dunta on him. Play some off coverage with deep help on the guy that has burned you for 200 yards and 2 TDs in a quarter, perhaps?

I'm cooling it w/ my insider posts.

I never get comments on my fresh football mind.

You all can screw off! I'm bumping the Fried Chicken thread!

Your insights intrigue me. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[OldSchool]

At this point I could give 2 shits about a draft prospect's ability to play the run. What I want to know is whether or not they can stick to a WR or TE like a fly to a piece of crap.

[RealSNR]

I'm cooling it w/ my insider posts.

I never get comments on my fresh football mind.

You all can screw off! I'm bumping the Fried Chicken thread!

Don't do that. You've got a vision nobody else has. Were you not right about Knile Davis?

Also, a time will come this season when you will gloat bukkake over everybody for seeing a legend being born before everybody else:

Chas Alecxih

[planetdoc]

So, again, I ask, given the limitations of the talent, what exactly did you expect Sutton to do?

Get those liabilities off the field. For example, in the last 2 games (SD, IND) Abdullah had 14 TKL, 2 PD, 2 INT. Why didnt he get more playing time or replace Lewis?

Why was Dunta Robinson on the 53 when it was obvious he was a liability from day 1? Does he, as a defensive coordinator have no say on who makes the roster or is on the gameday? Chiefs could have filled that spot with someone who could have contributed.

As mentioned before, why didnt he rotate the d-line better? They showed ability in wk 17 against SD.

A 3-4 D thrives on the pass rush (and ability) of the linebackers. When Houston/Hali were banged up, why didnt he switch to more 4-3 looks? I know nickel/dime defenses are all the rage, but they dont work when the linebackers/secondary are banged up.

If Sutton's D requires a quick, single high safety, than why didnt he try Berry there in preseason? Berry has world class speed compared to Lewis.

I hope Sutton learns from last yr. One way to start would be to move DeVito to LDE.

[milkman]

I agree. While I have been wanting us to take either a receiver or safety tomorrow, I would feel pretty good if we snatched up Kyle Van Noy. He can be your other ILB, even if he can play outside. The guy really is that talented.

Right, but I'm talking about last year.

If Lewis were benched, and Abdullah replaced him as teams like Houston and Buffalo started to figure us out, I'll bet Sutton never would have played the corners off the line, and we could actually press the shit out of Denver's receivers successfully.

I still don't know if the Indy game would have had the same result, but it at least would have deflected so much fan criticism away from Sutton. You wouldn't see such an abysmal product on the field for the second half of the year.

People are on my ass about this, but if we trade down from 23, Kyle Van Noy should absolutely be a consideration, where he can be the primary backup to Hali and the starter at ILB next to DJ when he's not. He would provide interior pressure and coverage skills that Mays, Jordan, and Belcher never had.

I'm really torn on this.

I keep going back and forth between Jimmy Ward and Kyle Van Noy, but I think I've settled on Ward, and finding that ILB in the 3rd.

[Simply Red]

Don't do that. You've got a vision nobody else has. Were you not right about Knile Davis?

Also, a time will come this season when you will gloat bukkake over everybody for seeing a legend being born before everybody else:

Chas Alecxih

I'm also going to throw back in my b-boy stance once Avery owns souls. Thank God we haven't traded him - he's our leader on the offense.

[Bowser]

I'm really torn on this.

I keep going back and forth between Jimmy Ward and Kyle Van Noy, but I think I've settled on Ward, and finding that ILB in the 3rd.

I really haven't studied linebacker depth much, other than to listen to the talking heads say that LB depth isn't all that great this year. Anyone you've got your eye on?

[milkman]

Get those liabilities off the field. For example, in the last 2 games (SD, IND) Abdullah had 14 TKL, 2 PD, 2 INT. Why didnt he get more playing time or replace Lewis?

Why was Dunta Robinson on the 53 when it was obvious he was a liability from day 1? Does he, as a defensive coordinator have no say on who makes the roster or is on the gameday? Chiefs could have filled that spot with someone who could have contributed.

As mentioned before, why didnt he rotate the d-line better? They showed ability in wk 17 against SD.

A 3-4 D thrives on the pass rush (and ability) of the linebackers. When Houston/Hali were banged up, why didnt he switch to more 4-3 looks? I know nickel/dime defenses are all the rage, but they dont work when the linebackers/secondary are banged up.

If Sutton's D requires a quick, single high safety, than why didnt he try Berry there in preseason? Berry has world class speed compared to Lewis.

I hope Sutton learns from last yr. One way to start would be to move DeVito to LDE.

Solid questions.

I am not convinced that Abdullah is suited to play as the single high safety.
I do think Berry has the talent to be the very best at it were Sutton to put him there, but I can only speculate that he values the versatility that Berry brings to the defense too much to limit him to that riole.

I'm guessing that,if the Chiefs don't address the FS position in the draft, that it speaks to how they feel about Sanders Commings.
I am skeptical on that.

The lack of rotation has to speak to the lack of confidence they had in the depth.
I also question that.

[BigRock]

I remember very little of Buffalo, Houston, and Denver exploting deep zones. I remember a lot of short passes to get the ball out quickly to neutralize the pass rush and the defense having no answers, either up front or in coverage.

[milkman]

I really haven't studied linebacker depth much, other than to listen to the talking heads say that LB depth isn't all that great this year. Anyone you've got your eye on?

I know that there's a lot of people that look at Telvon Smith and think he might be moved to SS, but I would take him and work on adding about 10 pounds to his frame and line him up next to DJ.

[milkman]

I remember very little of Buffalo, Houston, and Denver exploting deep zones. I remember a lot of short passes to get the ball out quickly to neutralize the pass rush and the defense having no answers, either up front or in coverage.

I am not talking about play after play after play.

They picked their spots and took their shots, which loosened up the underneath stuff.

[keg in kc]

I think Sutton gets blamed because he's the easiest, least thought-required target. Injuries and depth were the larger issues.

[RealSNR]

I know that there's a lot of people that look at Telvon Smith and think he might be moved to SS, but I would take him and work on adding about 10 pounds to his frame and line him up next to DJ.

I'd be into that.

Midrounders like Skov just aren't going to be the versatile pass defenders we're looking for. And unfortunately, that seems to be the majority of what this draft has to offer at ILB.

Even if CJ Mosley falls to us, I don't trust him to fulfill the role that we'd ask him to do. He'd be just another glorified Jordan/Mays until DJ can't do his job anymore.

[The Franchise]

I'm really torn on this.

I keep going back and forth between Jimmy Ward and Kyle Van Noy, but I think I've settled on Ward, and finding that ILB in the 3rd.

http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/936/775/6_775936.jpg

[Chiefs=Champions]

I think all this is linked to why Berry had to play as a box safety predominately. If we have a backer who can actually cover, then we could potentially move Berry out to fs. Even Dj, for all his strengths, isnt a great cover backer. People dont realise just how valuable Berry was to the defense last year. He filled so many roles he should be asking for every bit Earl Thomas got. There just aren't many players who can cover as well as him and successfully play in the box.

People need to also realise that defenses nowdays have to be so versatile. Hiding your coverages is so important. Its great if you have a bunch of situational guys, but ultimately you want guys who can move around and do different things. Otherwise you become far to predictable.

I would be ecstatic if we draft Ward, but s cover backer would be a equally good pick. I really wanted Kuechley a couple of years ago for that reason. He can cover and play the run extremely well and his versatility would have allowed Berry to move around more.

[RealSNR]

Telvin Smith, Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston will become weed buddies in that LBing group. That boosts team chemistry and shit.

I'm all for it.

[staylor26]

I know that there's a lot of people that look at Telvon Smith and think he might be moved to SS, but I would take him and work on adding about 10 pounds to his frame and line him up next to DJ.

This.

We couldn't agree more on the prospects we need to be targeting. Ward at 23 would be perfect, and my hope is Telvin's failed drug test ensures that he will make it to us in the 3rd and maybe even 4th.

What do you think about Cooks/Lee in the 1st since Ward is probably wishful thinking (not that he won't be there)? Van Noy would also be great, but like Ward I just don't see it happening.

[Chiefs=Champions]

I guess my stance on Sutton would be that he gets far too much of the blame. We didn't have the players to mask our weaknesses. Id also argue that we couldn't sub players through because they simply weren't ready. Its just not as easy as throwing a guy in there, its just not. You do that too much and your whole scheme and game plan can be thrown out the window.

However I think that if we can find a deep safety or cover backer, or maybe both, then we will be able to pretty much dare teams to beat us like we did in the first few weeks. Those two positions are of extreme importance to us having a legitimate shot at a superbowl. Really makes.me wonder why we didn't try to adress those positions in free agency.

[milkman]

This.

We couldn't agree more on the prospects we need to be targeting. Ward at 23 would be perfect, and my hope is Telvin's failed drug test ensures that he will make it to us in the 3rd and maybe even 4th.

What do you think about Cooks/Lee in the 1st since Ward is probably wishful thinking (not that he won't be there)

Read the "Wish list" thread.

[The Franchise]

This.

We couldn't agree more on the prospects we need to be targeting. Ward at 23 would be perfect, and my hope is Telvin's failed drug test ensures that he will make it to us in the 3rd and maybe even 4th.

What do you think about Cooks/Lee in the 1st since Ward is probably wishful thinking (not that he won't be there)

Give me....

1st - Brandin Cooks or Marqise Lee
3rd - Christian Jones, ILB
4th - Telvin Smith, SS

Move Berry to FS and now you have athletic LBs and Safeties that can cover anybody.

[Jimmya]

This will be another year to evaluate him. He doesn't show different pre-snap reads so opposing qb's can get a true picture of what the defense will be in. One of his negatives at the Jets was his inability to make adjustments after the half. I still think he struggles with that.

[King_Chief_Fan]

I have asked this in threads before, and I get no legitimate response, so I am going to start this thread.

Over and over, and over again, people keep saying that Sutton made no adjustments, and is responsible for the failures of this defense.

I have no dog in this, but I want to know, what exactly do you think he could do?

This defense was playing spectacularly for the first 5-6 games, but then Buffalo, Houston and the Donkeys had enough film to recognize that they could exploit the deep zones because Kendrick Lewis was almost always in the wrong place, and they adjusted their game plans to take full advantage.

Sutton tried to counter that by moving the corners off the line, which allowed offenses to exploit the short passing game and minimize the pass rush, which was also affected by the loss of Houston to injury, and a less than 100% Hali.

The one critisism that is completely valid is that Sutton did not utilize a rotaion on the line that kept Poe fresh, and he was not the same player for the 2nd half of the season that he was for the first half, because he was just worn out.

So, again, I ask, given the limitations of the talent, what exactly did you expect Sutton to do?
I think you have diagnosed this thing perfect...I guess the only thing he can do is give Dorsey an earful about getting him better talent:shrug:

[Rain Man]

I think we're quick to blame the coaches around here, and I'm as guilty as anybody.

I'm really not sure what happened last year. It was weird as heck. We went from having a world-beating defense to a defense that was almost Greg Robinson-esque in ineptness. (There I go blaming the coaches again, but ... spinner defense. That was all Robinson.) And at the same time our offense went from being completely inept to being a world beater. That was totally weird.

On the defense, I think it's no coincidence that our defense went from good to bad about the same time that our schedule got tougher. It implies that our defense was good enough to shut down weak teams, but that it had a weakness (also known as a "Kendrick") that could be easily exploited by good teams. Or as implied in the initial post, maybe 9 weeks was enough time for opponents to figure out the Achilles heel of our system or our personnel.

The change in the offense was the bigger mystery. What started going right? Was it all Geoff Schwartz and Donald Stephenson (aka Russell Wilson)? That and Fasano's return were the only notable personnel changes. Or was it the offense learning the new system well enough that they started dominating via their amazing talent and system?

[RunKC]

That's the first order of business, but it isn't quite that simple.

We need an ILB alongside DJ who isn't absolutely useless in pass coverage, and more pressure from at least 1 of the DEs.

That ILB, though, would really allow Sutton, if he does have the chops, to really maximize Berry's versatility.

I think if CJ Mosley is there, he's our pick. Don't see him getting past GB tho

[milkman]

I think we're quick to blame the coaches around here, and I'm as guilty as anybody.

I'm really not sure what happened last year. It was weird as heck. We went from having a world-beating defense to a defense that was almost Greg Robinson-esque in ineptness. (There I go blaming the coaches again, but ... spinner defense. That was all Robinson.) And at the same time our offense went from being completely inept to being a world beater. That was totally weird.

On the defense, I think it's no coincidence that our defense went from good to bad about the same time that our schedule got tougher. It implies that our defense was good enough to shut down weak teams, but that it had a weakness (also known as a "Kendrick") that could be easily exploited by good teams. Or as implied in the initial post, maybe 9 weeks was enough time for opponents to figure out the Achilles heel of our system or our personnel.

The change in the offense was the bigger mystery. What started going right? Was it all Geoff Schwartz and Donald Stephenson (aka Russell Wilson)? That and Fasano's return were the only notable personnel changes. Or was it the offense learning the new system well enough that they started dominating via their amazing talent and system?

The success on offense had as much to do with Reid pushing Smith to be more aggressive downfield, which loosened up defenses and made the short passing game far more effective.

[OldSchool]

I think if CJ Mosley is there, he's our pick. Don't see him getting past GB tho

God I hope not. We already have one crappy ILB from Bama in Nico Johnson, FML if we draft another one in the 1st.

[milkman]

I think if CJ Mosley is there, he's our pick. Don't see him getting past GB tho

I'm not sure that Mosely has the fluid hips that Van Noy possesses.

This is why I think Telvin Smith should be an option in the third.

Put 10-12 pounds on him, he should be able to retain the quickness, fluidity, and athleticism he posseses.

I see him as a Donnie Edwards type, but a better, more aggressive tackler.

[RippedmyFlesh]

God I hope not. We already have one crappy ILB from Bama in Nico Johnson, FML if we draft another one in the 1st.

I am not an alabama fan or hater but it really looks like system gets the job done. They get some of the best talent year in and out yet they just don't look the same once they get to the nfl. Barron in tampa being a rare exception.

[ThaVirus]

1. Make sure Dunta Robinson never saw the field. I'll never understand why Ron Parker didn't see more coverage snaps in the playoff game.

2. Replace Kendrick Lewis with Abdullah or Berry. It's my opinion that Berry should have been our starting FS and Abdullah our starting SS with Demps as the first S coming off the bench.

3. Rotate more often, specifically on the defensive line. Poe was our only hope for a pass rush from a down lineman and we ran him into the ground all season long. Reduce his snaps by about 25% next season.

4. Make better adjustments. There were times when he made great adjustments (benching Robinson after he got torched by Victor Cruz and blitzing more against Houston in the second half) but there were many more when he didn't, specifically against Denver and San Diego (he never came up with an answer to stop those crossing routes) and worst of all the Colts. I may not get paid for this but I have common sense and it tells me when you're hemorrhaging yards and TDs doing one thing, you switch the shit up to counter it.

5. Practice/run more zone coverage. I hate to be the copy cat but Seattle runs a shit ton of zone and it's what makes their D so ferocious, among many other things. The thing specifically about the zone is that it keeps all eyes in front of you. That means there are often more chances to break up passes, tip balls for INTs, lay big hits (especially on crossing routes), and gang tackle. I'm aware that we probably just don't have the personnel to effectively run a disciplined zone defense but we need to try. Run that shit in practice and bring in some guys that can do both man and zone and do them well.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Going back to the playoff loss to Indy ,all Sutton had to do was get Hilton covered . Double team his ass. That's all he had to do. giving up a 28 point lead is bullshit.

Robinson and Lewis are now gone so coaches knew our weaknesses and hopefully we can upgrade in this draft. Hopefully commings will be a stud. don't know.

[milkman]

1. Make sure Dunta Robinson never saw the field. I'll never understand why Ron Parker didn't see more coverage snaps in the playoff game.

We saw Parker make plays as a blitzer, but we have no idea how he works in coverage.
I agree, though, that is one thing that Sutton could have tried, but at the same time, he also has the benefit of actually seeing Parker in practice.

2. Replace Kendrick Lewis with Abdullah or Berry. It's my opinion that Berry should have been our starting FS and Abdullah our starting SS with Demps as the first S coming off the bench.

I am not convinced that Abdullah has the tools to play the single high safety position, and he lacks the versatility to be moved around in the defense that Berry brings to the field.

But, again, it might have been worth a look.

3. Rotate more often, specifically on the defensive line. Poe was our only hope for a pass rush from a down lineman and we ran him into the ground all season long. Reduce his snaps by about 25% next season.

Agree with this.

4. Make better adjustments. There were times when he made great adjustments (benching Robinson after he got torched by Victor Cruz and blitzing more against Houston in the second half) but there were many more when he didn't, specifically against Denver and San Diego (he never came up with an answer to stop those crossing routes) and worst of all the Colts. I may not get paid for this but I have common sense and it tells me when you're hemorrhaging yards and TDs doing one thing, you switch the shit up to counter it..


The best way to stop those crossing routes, and really, any other short passes is sound fundamental tackling.
Those passes are going to be completed a majority of the time, so you have to minimize the gains, which forces the offense to start looking for bigger chunks in the passing game, allowing the pass rushers to get more pressure.

5. Practice/run more zone coverage. I hate to be the copy cat but Seattle runs a shit ton of zone and it's what makes their D so ferocious, among many other things. The thing specifically about the zone is that it keeps all eyes in front of you. That means there are often more chances to break up passes, tip balls for INTs, lay big hits (especially on crossing routes), and gang tackle. I'm aware that we probably just don't have the personnel to effectively run a disciplined zone defense but we need to try. Run that shit in practice and bring in some guys that can do both man and zone and do them well.

Cooper might/probaly would have benefitted from more practice in zone, but, at the same time, you might not want to overload him too early in his progression as a corner.
We know, however, that Sean Smith has historically sucked in zone.

Not sure this works at all.

But this is one of only two responses to the question that I have posed that really legitimately address the question.

Good post.

[milkman]

Going back to the playoff loss to Indy ,all Sutton had to do was get Hilton covered . Double team his ass. That's all he had to do. giving up a 28 point lead is bullshit.

Robinson and Lewis are now gone so coaches knew our weaknesses and hopefully we can upgrade in this draft. Hopefully commings will be a stud. don't know.

Hilton was doubled teamed.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Going back to the playoff loss to Indy ,all Sutton had to do was get Hilton covered . Double team his ass. That's all he had to do. giving up a 28 point lead is bullshit.

Robinson and Lewis are now gone so coaches knew our weaknesses and hopefully we can upgrade in this draft. Hopefully commings will be a stud. don't know.

They are all in on that. I am no where near as sure as they seem to be.

[Halfcan]

Going back to the playoff loss to Indy ,all Sutton had to do was get Hilton covered . Double team his ass. That's all he had to do. giving up a 28 point lead is bullshit.

Robinson and Lewis are now gone so coaches knew our weaknesses and hopefully we can upgrade in this draft. Hopefully commings will be a stud. don't know.

This> They are hoping to upgrade this shit defense in the draft with 6 picks-yep will probably work. :rolleyes:

[RippedmyFlesh]

To the OP I think it is easier for an average fan to identify a good play call and player fail on offense. A wide open pass dropped.
On defense it takes more of an understanding of players roles in a defense to know the difference between bad play calling and execution.

[BigRock]

I am not talking about play after play after play.

They picked their spots and took their shots, which loosened up the underneath stuff.

The problem with that is the underneath stuff didn't need loosening. Houston ran pretty much their entire offense from the shotgun with a lot of 2 second passes. Clearly trying to negate the pass rush. They only threw deep twice in the first half. Well, technically three times, but one was a hail mary at the end of the half that wouldn't count towards Sutton adjusting to anything.

I don't think one deep pass attempt per quarter is going to cause any great adjustments to a defense. And in the meantime they gave up over 120 yards on short passes in that first half. They looked totally unprepared for a team to counter the pass rush with a short, quick passing attack. Which is troubling because that seems to be a fairly obvious strategy against a great pass rush.

I just don't see a cause and effect where they were being taken advantage of deep and then started getting burned by short passes because they had to back off. I think getting beat short came first. I saw it as teams trying to negate the pass rush by getting the ball out quick and the defense rarely having an answer. With the cherry on top that when they did go deep, it would work too because Lewis was garbage.

[htismaqe]

The problem with that is the underneath stuff didn't need loosening. Houston ran pretty much their entire offense from the shotgun with a lot of 2 second passes. Clearly trying to negate the pass rush. They only threw deep twice in the first half. Well, technically three times, but one was a hail mary at the end of the half that wouldn't count towards Sutton adjusting to anything.

I don't think one deep pass attempt per quarter is going to cause any great adjustments to a defense. And in the meantime they gave up over 120 yards on short passes in that first half. They looked totally unprepared for a team to counter the pass rush with a short, quick passing attack. Which is troubling because that seems to be a fairly obvious strategy against a great pass rush.

I just don't see a cause and effect where they were being taken advantage of deep and then started getting burned by short passes because they had to back off. I think getting beat short came first. I saw it as teams trying to negate the pass rush by getting the ball out quick and the defense rarely having an answer. With the cherry on top that when they did go deep, it would work too because Lewis was garbage.

Our defensive backfield just isn't very good.

[OldSchool]

Our defensive backfield just isn't very good.

Yup. Could you imagine what it would have looked like without Cooper last year?

[ct]

I think we're quick to blame the coaches around here, and I'm as guilty as anybody.

I'm really not sure what happened last year. It was weird as heck. We went from having a world-beating defense to a defense that was almost Greg Robinson-esque in ineptness. (There I go blaming the coaches again, but ... spinner defense. That was all Robinson.) And at the same time our offense went from being completely inept to being a world beater. That was totally weird.

On the defense, I think it's no coincidence that our defense went from good to bad about the same time that our schedule got tougher. It implies that our defense was good enough to shut down weak teams, but that it had a weakness (also known as a "Kendrick") that could be easily exploited by good teams. Or as implied in the initial post, maybe 9 weeks was enough time for opponents to figure out the Achilles heel of our system or our personnel.

The change in the offense was the bigger mystery. What started going right? Was it all Geoff Schwartz and Donald Stephenson (aka Russell Wilson)? That and Fasano's return were the only notable personnel changes. Or was it the offense learning the new system well enough that they started dominating via their amazing talent and system?

That's funny shit right there! Add that to the lexicon along w/ another suggestion, KLewlis

I'm strongly in the camp our FS weakness and injuries to our pass rushers killed the defense. I'm on board with Abdullah, think he's a fine player, very upgradeable, but a fine player, and should have been starting all year. So I'm not terribly worried about our safety play this year, should be much improved, but an upgrade prospect should definitely be selected at some point, I'm not counting on Commings long term until he shows he can stay on the field.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Hilton was doubled teamed.


By the invisibles ?????

[milkman]

The problem with that is the underneath stuff didn't need loosening. Houston ran pretty much their entire offense from the shotgun with a lot of 2 second passes. Clearly trying to negate the pass rush. They only threw deep twice in the first half. Well, technically three times, but one was a hail mary at the end of the half that wouldn't count towards Sutton adjusting to anything.

I don't think one deep pass attempt per quarter is going to cause any great adjustments to a defense. And in the meantime they gave up over 120 yards on short passes in that first half. They looked totally unprepared for a team to counter the pass rush with a short, quick passing attack. Which is troubling because that seems to be a fairly obvious strategy against a great pass rush.

I just don't see a cause and effect where they were being taken advantage of deep and then started getting burned by short passes because they had to back off. I think getting beat short came first. I saw it as teams trying to negate the pass rush by getting the ball out quick and the defense rarely having an answer. With the cherry on top that when they did go deep, it would work too because Lewis was garbage.

I may be confused about which teams, but there were a couple of games mid season that teams really exploited Lewis, which forced Sutton to back off the corners.

[OldSchool]

By the invisibles ?????

We could have lined up two old women in walkers against Hilton and they would have been just as effective as the combination of Lewis and Robinson were.

[Mr. Laz]

So, again, I ask, given the limitations of the talent, what exactly did you expect Sutton to do?
I approve this message because i never have enough talent either/GuntherCunningham




If we can't make up for a weakness at a single position then we are screwed. If Lewis was such a problem then why did our coaches keep running him out there?

I can't tell you exactly what he should have done because i'm not a professional NFL coach. I can say that other teams did more with less defensive talent than we did. Our secondary looked disorganized and we allowed the same stinking plays to be successful over and over again. We allowed the same player to kill us over and over again.

tbh i've thought our secondary has looked ragged for years considering i thought our talent was decent. You love emmitt thomas but i just don't see it.

Sutton will get another couple of years but i could very easily everyone saying he doesn't have enough talent over and over again ala goonther.

Our Defense doesn't have to be the best but if it looks like a clutterfuck then i'm going to hold the coaching accountable.

[Aspengc8]

I think Sutton gets blamed because he's the easiest, least thought-required target. Injuries and depth were the larger issues.

:clap:

First half of the season the defense was 100% healthy. They were getting pressure sending 3 or 4 rushers from nickel/sub packages and usually rushing 5 from base 3-4 alignments. This was letting our secondary play man trail with berry playing robber over the middle most of the time. Makes the QB have to make a perfect throw or risk being picked. When everyone started to drop, we had no rush whatsoever, forcing us to blitz and it was still being picked up because you have guys like Zombo who can't beat someone 1v1. Pick your poison, because your going to get lit up if you can't get to the QB. Even when Tamba & JH came back, they werent close to 100% and you could easily see that.

[Halfcan]

After watching the highlights of Calvin Pryor-I would love to have him in Red knocking the shit out the Donks running those illegal pick plays. We need some hitters back there to make the WR's pay for going over the middle on us. It was our biggest weakness last year. Sutton appeared to have no answer for it? Was that talent or playcalling? I tend to lean towards talent.

[SeeingRed]

Need to draft a pass-rusher at #23.

You're so dead wrong….that is not our problem. WAY more pressing needs than that. Especially now with QB situation. Already have 2 great pass rushers in Houston and Hali. As far as a pass rushing lineman we already have that too in Catapano….all they have to do is play the guy. spending your only pick in 1st 2 rounds on a pass rusher when we have so many other glaring needs makes no sense.

[milkman]

I approve this message because i never have enough talent either/GuntherCunningham




If we can't make up for a weakness at a single position then we are screwed. If Lewis was such a problem then why did our coaches keep running him out there?

I can't tell you exactly what he should have done because i'm not a professional NFL coach. I can say that other teams did more with less defensive talent than we did. Our secondary looked disorganized and we allowed the same stinking plays to be successful over and over again. We allowed the same player to kill us over and over again.

tbh i've thought our secondary has looked ragged for years considering i thought our talent was decent. You love emmitt thomas but i just don't see it.

Sutton will get another couple of years but i could very easily everyone saying he doesn't have enough talent over and over again ala goonther.

Our Defense doesn't have to be the best but if it looks like a clutter**** then i'm going to hold the coaching accountable.

Kendrick Lewis was the single most glaring weakness, but not the only one.

No pass rush from the line, and an ILB that couldn't cover your useless ass, along with no depth behind Hali or Houston.

Once those 2 went down to injury, every single hole on this defense was exposed and exploited.

[htismaqe]

You're so dead wrong….that is not our problem. WAY more pressing needs than that. Especially now with QB situation. Already have 2 great pass rushers in Houston and Hali. As far as a pass rushing lineman we already have that too in Catapano….all they have to do is play the guy. spending your only pick in 1st 2 rounds on a pass rusher when we have so many other glaring needs makes no sense.

You don't approach the draft that way.

There are always needs that you don't anticipate at the time.

[milkman]

You're so dead wrong….that is not our problem. WAY more pressing needs than that. Especially now with QB situation. Already have 2 great pass rushers in Houston and Hali. As far as a pass rushing lineman we already have that too in Catapano….all they have to do is play the guy. spending your only pick in 1st 2 rounds on a pass rusher when we have so many other glaring needs makes no sense.

Another pass rusher, or 2, is absolutely a need.

And we already have Catapano?
What, exactly do we have there?

Do you know.
I sure as hell don't,

[chiefzilla1501]

More than anything, I'd like to see him get better at evaluating personnel. Props to him for making a really smart move to put in Cooper and move Flowers to the Nickel.

I don't know why it took until after the Chargers "back-up game" to realize we had better depth than we thought, at least in terms of players we can rotate in to keep our starters fresh. Why did it take until the Colts game to realize Parker and Abdullah should have a place in this defense? Why did Sutton think Dunta Robinson was good enough to start against Indy? If Akeem Jordan is so limited in situations where we want our ILB to have range, why was he playing so many snaps?

I agree… from a scheme perspective, you've got lots of people learning it and limitations based on the talent. I worry about Sutton's ability to read talent, which makes me question if he's always going to get the best players on the field.

[Coochie liquor]

I think Sutton gets blamed because he's the easiest, least thought-required target. Injuries and depth were the larger issues.

Boom!! There were lots of places to place blame but ultimately it was first year in a new system. We got lucky early with a weaker sched. Got exploited by the better offensive teams. The playoff game was about as freak accident as a game can be. Flowers injury was the straw that broke the camels back. I think we had a good shot at winning that game if he doesn't go out. I think thing will get better as we get th players needed to run Suttons defense. Gotta give it a little time!

[chiefzilla1501]

Boom!! There were lots of places to place blame but ultimately it was first year in a new system. We got lucky early with a weaker sched. Got exploited by the better offensive teams. The playoff game was about as freak accident as a game can be. Flowers injury was the straw that broke the camels back. I think we had a good shot at winning that game if he doesn't go out. I think thing will get better as we get th players needed to run Suttons defense. Gotta give it a little time!

I'm really excited to see Berry bring it this year. Of all the players adjusting to this defense, he probably had it the hardest. Most write-ups on the Ryan defense say that Strong Safeties have one of the biggest learning curves. I think his work ethic and dedication in the film room is going to make him an animal this year.

[notorious]

He needs to stop wearing out our fucking D Linemen.

[RunKC]

God I hope not. We already have one crappy ILB from Bama in Nico Johnson, FML if we draft another one in the 1st.

CJ Mosley is NOTHING like Nico Johnson. Holy shit man.

[Hammock Parties]

You're wasting time debating.

All discussions lead to one inevitable conclusion: CHIEFS SUCK

[ThaVirus]

We saw Parker make plays as a blitzer, but we have no idea how he works in coverage.
I agree, though, that is one thing that Sutton could have tried, but at the same time, he also has the benefit of actually seeing Parker in practice.

We don't but, again, I partially have to blame him for that. In this league, you never know who you're going to be missing week in and week out. Guys get dinged up and miss plays, others get seriously injured and miss weeks. That's one of the main reasons you have depth.

It's not like our coverage schemes are all that difficult anyway. We were running man most of the time. He either could do it or he couldn't; there isn't much of a mental aspect involved.

We know for a fact that Dunta couldn't do it so why wasn't Parker given the opportunity? Honestly, is there any possible way that he could have been worse?

I am not convinced that Abdullah has the tools to play the single high safety position, and he lacks the versatility to be moved around in the defense that Berry brings to the field.

But, again, it might have been worth a look.

You might be right although I'd say he's likely faster than Lewis because Kendrick is slow as dog shit.

They were right to bring him along slowly to begin the season, having been away from football for a while, but it's hard for me to imagine that he'd have been worse than Kendrick by about week 13 or so.

Placing him at SS and Berry at FS likely would have forced us to change up some of our looks but we so desperately needed someone capable at FS. I think the drop off from Berry to Abdullah would have been outweighed heavily by the upgrade from Lewis to Berry.

The best way to stop those crossing routes, and really, any other short passes is sound fundamental tackling.
Those passes are going to be completed a majority of the time, so you have to minimize the gains, which forces the offense to start looking for bigger chunks in the passing game, allowing the pass rushers to get more pressure.

Cooper might/probaly would have benefitted from more practice in zone, but, at the same time, you might not want to overload him too early in his progression as a corner.
We know, however, that Sean Smith has historically sucked in zone.

Not sure this works at all.

But this is one of only two responses to the question that I have posed that really legitimately address the question.

Good post.

Right, which is why I like zone more when it comes to defending those especially considering they're two of our division rival's bread and butter plays. If we've got 4, 5, 6 or 7 sets of eyes in coverage all looking in front of them, we'll likely have a better chance to lay some clean licks on guys streaking across the field as well as the opportunity to put more bodies on them if they're able to make the catch.

I just got tired of seeing Peyton dump off a quick hitter to a guy on a drag route with one of our CBs 2 or 3 yards behind him in pursuit, only to allow 10 additional YAC because everyone's eyes are on their man.

I'm sure it's not so simple as saying "Let's run moe zone!" but it is something that needs to be addressed. It's not like our personnel is way off. Flowers is strong in zone while Smith isn't but Cooper is sort of a blank slate. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens after the draft..

[Dayze]

CJ Mosley is NOTHING like Nico Johnson. Holy shit man.

as a Bama fan, I agree.

though, I do like Nico. very smart player.

[BryanBusby]

I'm really torn on this.

I keep going back and forth between Jimmy Ward and Kyle Van Noy, but I think I've settled on Ward, and finding that ILB in the 3rd.
While I'm kinda torn on wanting a more capable coverage back, man Shayne Skov would be a nice get in the 3rd round. Dude is mean as fuck and his blitzing ability would give Bob Sutton a lot to work with.

[splatbass]

I have asked this in threads before, and I get no legitimate response, so I am going to start this thread.

Over and over, and over again, people keep saying that Sutton made no adjustments, and is responsible for the failures of this defense.

I have no dog in this, but I want to know, what exactly do you think he could do?

This defense was playing spectacularly for the first 5-6 games, but then Buffalo, Houston and the Donkeys had enough film to recognize that they could exploit the deep zones because Kendrick Lewis was almost always in the wrong place, and they adjusted their game plans to take full advantage.

Sutton tried to counter that by moving the corners off the line, which allowed offenses to exploit the short passing game and minimize the pass rush, which was also affected by the loss of Houston to injury, and a less than 100% Hali.

The one critisism that is completely valid is that Sutton did not utilize a rotaion on the line that kept Poe fresh, and he was not the same player for the 2nd half of the season that he was for the first half, because he was just worn out.


I agree with all of this. I don't think Sutton is the problem. If they can get him some more pieces and the D still doesn't improve then maybe it will be time to reassess, but as of now I think he did the best that could be done with what he had to work with.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I know Kendrick Lewis is the easy scapegoat here, and don't get me wrong - he was a trainwreck...

But this defense started sucking when the pass rush disappeared - BEFORE Hali and Houston were injured. Without a pass rush, Sutton's schemes don't work.

[ThaVirus]

I know Kendrick Lewis is the easy scapegoat here, and don't get me wrong - he was a trainwreck...

But this defense started sucking when the pass rush disappeared - BEFORE Hali and Houston were injured. Without a pass rush, Sutton's schemes don't work.

That's true. A lot of people like to say it started week 11 when we played Denver (and kicked off the rough part of our schedule) but, if I'm remembering correctly, we had trouble getting to Campbell when we played the Browns and got absolutely torched by Jeff fucking Tuel in Buffalo.

Without being able to watch the film I can't even begin to guess why we saw such a sudden decline in pass rush.

[staylor26]

Dorsey talked in his press conference about the difference from year one to two and he specifically mentioned that now he understands that the traditional 3-4 DE's (two 5techs) is a thing of the past and in Sutton's scheme you gotta have a 3tech and a 5tech. We didn't have that last season and now with Vance and a second year Catapano our Dline is better suited for Sutton's scheme. I think this will make just as much of a difference as replacing Kendrick and Demps (who was also pretty bad towards the end of the season).

[ThaVirus]

Kendrick is still dog shit though..

[BryanBusby]

It started when Dontari Poe began to tire out with the ridiculous amount of snaps he played in 2013.

[notorious]

It started when Dontari Poe began to tire out with the ridiculous amount of snaps he played in 2013.

This.

[milkman]

It started when Dontari Poe began to tire out with the ridiculous amount of snaps he played in 2013.

Exactly, and he began to wear down by week 5.

[Halfcan]

It started when Dontari Poe began to tire out with the ridiculous amount of snaps he played in 2013.

:thumb:Yep being double and triple teamed while being held every play will do that to you.

Sutton shouldn't be held responsible for all the missed tackles- I think we missed 14 in the first donk game. Hell we couldn't tackle the Colts either-It was like Pros Vs. the Joes.

[dannybcaitlyn]

I've posted my displeasure for sutton many times on here and I'm not going to go deep into it again, but I'll make a prediction, which is that we'll be calling for his head when its all said and done this season.

[OldSchool]

CJ Mosley is NOTHING like Nico Johnson. Holy shit man.

And Rolando McClain was the next big thing.

Sorry, but the best LBs in the league right now are athletic phenoms. If we take one in the 1st he better be a 4.4-4.5 guy with great instincts like a Patrick Willis or Luke Kuechley.

[Jimmya]

Agree with danny 100000%

[FloridaMan88]

Sutton is to defensive linemen what Dusty Baker is to starting pitchers.

[BryanBusby]

Exactly, and he began to wear down by week 5.
Yep.

Now Sutton should absolutely be held responsible for continuing to trot out Kendrick Lewis, even though it was obvious he was a dried up dog turd.

[splatbass]

I've posted my displeasure for sutton many times on here and I'm not going to go deep into it again, but I'll make a prediction, which is that we'll be calling for his head when its all said and done this season.

That is an easy prediction. This place is always calling for everyone's head. It doesn't mean Sutton is a problem though, just that this forum loves to bitch about everything.

[tecumseh]

I can split the difference of blame between Sutton and the lack of talent on defense. After the Colts loss, Brian Billick was asked how the Chiefs could have imploded so bad and he said " That guy (Hilton) making all the plays..I tell my DC if that guy catches one more ball , you're fired. I don't care if we lose but that guy doesn't catch another ball." I agree with this.

[Ragged Robin]

Sutton is trash and it's an absolute joke that he's still DC. The defense beat up on backups in the first half of the season but then got burned by virtually every team since the bye including the likes of Case Keenum, Ryan Fitzpatrick, McGloin, etc. The complete and utter systematic dismantlement of them in the 2nd half against the Colts says it all.

[Aspengc8]

Sutton is trash and it's an absolute joke that he's still DC. The defense beat up on backups in the first half of the season but then got burned by virtually every team since the bye including the likes of Case Keenum, Ryan Fitzpatrick, McGloin, etc. The complete and utter systematic dismantlement of them in the 2nd half against the Colts says it all.

and that makes it a DC/play call problem, and not the guys doing the covering?

:rolleyes:

[Easy 6]

I can split the difference of blame between Sutton and the lack of talent on defense. After the Colts loss, Brian Billick was asked how the Chiefs could have imploded so bad and he said " That guy (Hilton) making all the plays..I tell my DC if that guy catches one more ball , you're fired. I don't care if we lose but that guy doesn't catch another ball." I agree with this.

Agreed, splitting the difference sounds like the fairest answer here.

And yeah, I love Billicks answer.

[BigMeatballDave]

Yep.

Now Sutton should absolutely be held responsible for continuing to trot out Kendrick Lewis, even though it was obvious he was a dried up dog turd.

True, but who makes the final decisions on personnel moves? Doesn't the HC decide who is active? Reid should also share in this.