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View Full Version : Football Interesting statistical analysis pt. 1: Aaron Rodgers, game manager.


Direckshun
09-06-2014, 11:12 PM
Super interesting stuff.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2014-nfl-preview-great-players-and-gambling-problems-in-the-nfc-north/

Last year, with quarterback Aaron Rodgers missing half the season due to a broken collarbone, the Packers finished with just an 8-7-1 record, and gave up more points than they scored. Despite all that, they still eked out an NFC North division championship for the third year in a row.

In the eight games in which Rodgers played more than the opening drive, the Packers went 6-2 with an average margin of victory of 7.4 points. In the eight games that featured the smorgasbord1 of Packers backups, they went 2-5-1 with an average margin of defeat of 8.8 points. It’s difficult to disentangle a quarterback’s performance from that of his teammates (or his coaches), but the Packers’ 2013 results are perhaps the best evidence yet that Rodgers is the real deal.2

Since Rodgers took over for Brett Favre in 2008, the Packers have been one of the NFL’s best franchises. They’ve won the fourth-most games (they’re in essentially a four-way-tie behind the Patriots) and a Super Bowl (as many of those as anyone else over that period, and one more than the Patriots). ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (QBR) is one of the most all-encompassing quarterback rating systems out there today.3 Rodgers’s QBR in the last six years is 72.9, second only to Peyton Manning’s 80.7. Rodgers performs fantastically well in a variety of other quarterback metrics.

But that’s what happens when you a) play for a good team and b) don’t throw interceptions. These are strongly related. Most interceptions are thrown when the quarterback’s team is trailing (about twice as many as when it’s ahead), and they become more and more likely the more his team is down or the closer they come to the end of the game4:

http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/morris-feature-nfcnorth-table.png?w=1024

Interceptions are often (even largely) a product of completely rational risk-taking by desperate quarterbacks. A logical implication of this is that if a quarterback is too conservative, he can throw too few interceptions, which can be just as bad as throwing too many.

Despite his various successes, it’s possible Rodgers fits this description of an overly conservative quarterback. For example, with his team down by two or more scores (9+ points) he has thrown only three interceptions out of 354 passes attempted (0.8 percent) in his career. This is typically when quarterbacks throw the most INTs, because they’re trying to get their teams back into the game, and high-risk strategies often give them the best chance to win. Overall, quarterbacks throw interceptions about 3.5 percent of the time on average in those situations, with even most great quarterbacks breaking 3.0 percent. Peyton Manning, for example, has averaged 3.1 percent, Drew Brees has averaged 3.3 percent, and even Tom Brady has thrown 2.3 percent (slightly above his career average).5

Being insufficiently willing to gamble even when circumstances are dire can be good for a QB’s stats, while bad for his team. And there’s evidence of this in Rodgers’s record as well: He has only engineered six fourth-quarter comebacks in his career — good for 149th all time (Russell Wilson already has eight).

There’s nothing wrong with giving your team the lead and then keeping it.6 But Rodgers has averaged one fourth-quarter comeback every 14.5 games. This is staggeringly low, even for a player whose team isn’t behind that often. Brady has played for an even more consistently good team and has a fourth-quarter comeback once every 6.2 games. Both brothers Manning have averaged one every six games, Ben Roethlisberger has one every 6.2, Drew Brees and Joe Flacco have one about every eight. Favre (surprisingly) had one only every 9.9 games.

But the good news for Packers fans is that Rodgers has some pretty low-hanging room for improvement: If he starts taking more calculated risks (likely sacrificing his stats a little in the process), the Pack may be even more dangerous.

RobBlake
09-06-2014, 11:28 PM
Rodgers is slightly overrated but is a top qb no doubt

Simply Red
09-06-2014, 11:39 PM
http://i.imgur.com/CxkVmXO.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/jFIrOTd.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/uvuGnrF.jpg

Hammock Parties
09-06-2014, 11:43 PM
I'd like to see where Romo and Alex rank in that 4th quarter comeback stat.

OldSchool
09-06-2014, 11:43 PM
I'd like to see where Romo and Alex rank in that 4th quarter comeback stat.

I'd like to see where they rank in Post-season play.:thumb:

MagicHef
09-07-2014, 12:19 AM
I'd like to see where Romo and Alex rank in that 4th quarter comeback stat.

Romo: one every 5.4 games
Alex: one every 8.2 games

Psyko Tek
09-07-2014, 12:21 AM
http://i.imgur.com/CxkVmXO.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/jFIrOTd.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/uvuGnrF.jpg
Is that Eli?

Kaepernick
09-07-2014, 12:34 AM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcz96qtZCJ1qelt2r.gif

Kaepernick
09-07-2014, 12:35 AM
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4362810/aaron-rodgers-o.gif

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 06:48 AM
I'd like to see where Romo and Alex rank in that 4th quarter comeback stat.

Romo has 20
Smith has 13

That's misleading because Smith's comebacks have often benefited from a great defense. I am not impressed yet with Smith's ability to close games.

But for Aaron Rodgers specifically, yes, this is an issue he needs to address He's an elite QB and his 4th quarter track record in close games isn't good. I remember a writer looked into if that 6 comeback wins also includes games where Rodgers did what he could and the defense completely blew it, and I think you'd only find a few. So even if you do that, his comeback #'s are alarmingly low.

Hootie
09-07-2014, 07:06 AM
Aaron Rodgers is good, but definitely overrated

WhiteWhale
09-07-2014, 07:44 AM
Damn over-rated Rogers. If he'd throw more interceptions, get his team behind, and then come back, that would certainly show everyone.

Only over-rated QB's take leads early and then keep their team in position to win.

Total game manager.

/derp squad

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 07:48 AM
Damn over-rated Rogers. If he'd throw more interceptions, get his team behind, and then come back, that would certainly show everyone.

Only over-rated QB's take leads early and then keep their team in position to win.

Total game manager.

/derp squad

He is only overrated because many think he's the best QB in the game.

If you want to be considered the best in the game, you have to be great in the clutch. And Rodgers' track record isn't very good. I don't know why I feel like this is the year he changes that but it can't be ignored that his numbers don't look good. And while I haven't seen every close game I have seen a few where he doesn't seem to have that "it factor" late in games you see from the game's greats.

Tribal Warfare
09-07-2014, 07:57 AM
He is only overrated because many think he's the best QB in the game.

If you want to be considered the best in the game, you have to be great in the clutch. And Rodgers' track record isn't very good. I don't know why I feel like this is the year he changes that but it can't be ignored that his numbers don't look good. And while I haven't seen every close game I have seen a few where he doesn't seem to have that "it factor" late in games you see from the game's greats.

In all honesty Peyton's clutch factor is worse than little brother Eli

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 08:06 AM
In all honesty Peyton's clutch factor is worse than little brother Eli

For a guy as automatic as he is late in games in the regular season, we just see too many collapses in playoff games. Agreed. When we're talking about elite QB, those kinds of things matter. I mean, Peyton will be considered by many to be the best player to ever play the game. When that kind of stuff gets thrown around, then these details really matter.

There was that feeling with Brady years ago when he first started, and I don't know why we don't see it anymore. Same feeling I had with Montana. No lead was ever safe in the playoffs. I just don't feel even close to the same with Peyton or Rodgers, even Brees for that matter.

MahiMike
09-07-2014, 09:07 AM
Alex rodgers? Aaron smith?

RealSNR
09-07-2014, 09:26 AM
Old School has infected this forum with stupid.

Skip Bayless is full of shit. There is no clutch gene.

penbrook
09-07-2014, 09:30 AM
I guess Aaron Rodgers 4th down last year against the bears. Where winner goes to the playoffs and loser goes home. And Rodgers dodged the DE and hit the game winning bomb. I guess that wasn't clutch was it now

JoeyChuckles
09-07-2014, 09:38 AM
538 is a great site for sports/other analysis.

Check out this post on NFL probabilities this season. They have us at 7.3 wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/nfl-week-1-elo-ratings/

http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/silver-elo-table-1.png?w=610&h=868

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 09:40 AM
I guess Aaron Rodgers 4th down last year against the bears. Where winner goes to the playoffs and loser goes home. And Rodgers dodged the DE and hit the game winning bomb. I guess that wasn't clutch was it now

Pointing to one example doesn't suddenly mean it happens all the time. Rodgers has a few big moments in the 4th here and there. Of course you can cherrypick and find examples. You could do the same with Alex Smith too, but in no way would I call Alex Smith clutch.

But in the company of elite QBs, 6 comebacks is really bad. Before last season, he was 5-24 in comeback situations. In contrast, Eli was 21-22 and Romo was 13-20. That is a dramatic difference. Almost every QB you'd consider in the elite QB category has well over 20 (even if you consider that Rodgers has played in 1/2 the number of games, it still only brings his number to 12 if you double it.)

keg in kc
09-07-2014, 09:41 AM
This is all I can think of when I see somebody say Rodgers is overrated...

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X6WHBO_Qc-Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 09:45 AM
Old School has infected this forum with stupid.

Skip Bayless is full of shit. There is no clutch gene.

There is absolutely a clutch gene. There are players in all sports who for some reason tense up in big situations and others where the game almost slows down. Joe Montana was a good QB, but there are a lot more QBs with a shitload more talent than him. In the 4th quarter, there was nobody better. Michael Jordan was obviously an excellent player, but his ability to play in the 4th quarter is second to none. Derek Jeter... it is beyond incredible that his numbers in postseason play are as good and sometimes better than regular season play even when you spread that out over time.

If there was no clutch gene, the best relief pitchers would always be your closers. Joe Montana's play in the 4th would mirror his first quarter performance which was very good but hardly spectacular.

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 09:47 AM
This is all I can think of when I see somebody say Rodgers is overrated...

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X6WHBO_Qc-Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some consider Rodgers to be the best QB in the league right now. So realize the context. I don't think anybody is saying he sucks or even that he's good not great. Everyone knows he's great. But the ability to close games should be a critical factor in deciding who is actually the best. It matters when talking about Peyton too.

Coochie liquor
09-07-2014, 10:12 AM
Romo has 20
Smith has 13

That's misleading because Smith's comebacks have often benefited from a great defense. I am not impressed yet with Smith's ability to close games.

But for Aaron Rodgers specifically, yes, this is an issue he needs to address He's an elite QB and his 4th quarter track record in close games isn't good. I remember a writer looked into if that 6 comeback wins also includes games where Rodgers did what he could and the defense completely blew it, and I think you'd only find a few. So even if you do that, his comeback #'s are alarmingly low.

Let's not forget that Smith had a LOT less offensive weapons to work with than Romo did. And also offensive play calling by his early coaches were atrocious too.

xztop123
09-07-2014, 10:16 AM
I think Rogers is by far the most overatted player in the league

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
09-07-2014, 10:20 AM
He seems to have regressed a bit, but he's still elite.

Mav
09-07-2014, 10:21 AM
I think Rogers is by far the most overatted player in the league

ehhhhhhhh.

No, no hes not.

Now, while he has had the luxury of having multiple weapons at all times, and being in the same system his entire career, his anticipation, his ability to extend plays, and his ridiculous accuracy, all are much appreciated traits.

chiefzilla1501
09-07-2014, 10:30 AM
ehhhhhhhh.

No, no hes not.

Now, while he has had the luxury of having multiple weapons at all times, and being in the same system his entire career, his anticipation, his ability to extend plays, and his ridiculous accuracy, all are much appreciated traits.

My main problem is, for a guy that is that exceptional at all the things you mentioned, you'd expect a better record in 4th quarter situations than 6-25. And as the stats point out, that's not just due to a bad defense. Only a few of those 25 losses came from situations where Rodgers did everything he could do but lost anyway.

rico
09-07-2014, 11:15 AM
This is one of those situation s where I don't give a shit about what the stats reflect.... Aaron Rodgers is not a game manager. At his best, he is one of the best quarterbacks of all time.