Sports-Related Conspiracy Theories

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Some of the recent posts about various things being rigged has gotten me thinking. I love a good conspiracy theory, and I'd like to know how much you all do, too. I think this thread should be a place to hash those out. I'll start:

Joe Paterno decided to kill himself rather than face the public for his proximity to Sandusky and the kiddie porn dungeon that became the Penn St facilities.

[Pepe Silvia]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

[jimidollar]

Paterno was shot from the greasy mole.

[TribalElder]

The refs ruled alex threw a forward pass at the end of the bronco game so that the Broncos couldn't cover the 13 point spread and Vegas made a shitload of money

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

That happened with Rick Majerus for a fact. Shit in a towel and wiped it clean during a board session.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Some of the recent posts about various things being rigged has gotten me thinking. I love a good conspiracy theory, and I'd like to know how much you all do, too. I think this thread should be a place to hash those out. I'll start:

Joe Paterno decided to kill himself rather than face the public for his proximity to Sandusky and the kiddie porn dungeon that became the Penn St facilities.

Ooh. I thought that too! This should be a fun thread.

[Demonpenz]

Bo Diaz had kicked Marge Schotts beloved dog and she had him killed.

[Eleazar]

Roger Goodell had no idea about the Ray Rice video

[lcarus]

The Sacramento Kings were hosed in the WCF against the Lakers.

[Otis Day]

That happened with Rick Majerus for a fact. Shit in a towel and wiped it clean during a board session.

Knew a player that played for Majerus. When he stood at the urinal he would always drop his pants and underwear all the way to the floor. Made the players real uncomfortable to see him standing bare ass at a urinal.

[Mojo Jojo]

There was a second spitter on the grassy knoll after a Mets game.

[Gadzooks]

Knew a player that played for Majerus. When he stood at the urinal he would always drop his pants and underwear all the way to the floor. Made the players real uncomfortable to see him standing bare ass at a urinal.

There's a guy at my work who does that.

[Hammock Parties]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

THIS is a CHIEFSPLANET thread.

RIGHT HERE.

100 PERCENT PREMIUM CONTENT

Anyway, I heard Chiefs players used to bang hookers above the bar at Coach's in River Falls. There's a second story and most customers aren't allowed up there. The Chiefs, however...right this way, sir.

[jimidollar]

Roger McDowell

[L.A. Chieffan]

The Michael Jordan "suspension" one is fun

[Hammock Parties]

The refs ruled alex threw a forward pass at the end of the bronco game so that the Broncos couldn't cover the 13 point spread and Vegas made a shitload of money

The score was 24-17 at the time so that doesn't make much sense.

[jimidollar]

Warren Moon never really landed on the moon. He did really throw for 527 yards against the Chiefs though.

[L.A. Chieffan]

NBA rigged the draft for Cleveland to give LeBron extra incentive to come back, also rigged it for Ewing to come to New York with the "frozen" envelope

[L.A. Chieffan]

When A Rod was on the Rangers he would tip off pitches to opposing players hoping for same favor in return.

[Prison Bitch]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

"Racial Abuse"? Tell me more.

[GloucesterChief]

The Sacramento Kings were hosed in the WCF against the Lakers.

That really isn't a conspiracy theory. It is quite clear they did. Now whether that was an order from on high or simple ref bias is up to you.

[Discuss Thrower]

NFL rigged Super Bowls 3 and 4 to ensure the merger went through.

[TribalElder]

The score was 24-17 at the time so that doesn't make much sense.

They could have kneeled

But 24+7 - 17 = 14 = covered

['Hamas' Jenkins]

NFL rigged Super Bowls 3 and 4 to ensure the merger went through.

Where have you heard this before and what evidence can you present?

Here's another one:

According to Al Davis, the officials purposefully got the Immaculate Reception wrong because they were worried about their safety should they overturn the touchdown.

[lewdog]

http://www.coachingbysubjectexperts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[CoMoChief]

Quin Snyder used to sleep w/ some of his player's girlfriends.

Ask Linus Kleiza or however the hell you spell his name.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Given the celebration in the Bronx tonight...

Jeter has herpes and gave it to Jessica Alba, Jessica Biel, and Minka Kelly, among others.

[Hammock Parties]

Given the celebration in the Bronx tonight...

Jeter has herpes and gave it to Jessica Alba, Jessica Biel, and Minka Kelly, among others.

How much would it suck to be Jessica Alba and be living with herpes. LMAO


Everyone wants to fuck you...wait no one wants to fuck you.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

This is true. They finally had to install a shower in his office because GAs revolted.

[Saul Good]

Where have you heard this before and what evidence can you present?

Here's another one:

According to Al Davis, the officials purposefully got the Immaculate Reception wrong because they were worried about their safety should they overturn the touchdown.

I saw an overview with Bubba Smith, and he flat out said that several players on the Cools were paid to throw that game.

[Saul Good]

How much would it suck to be Jessica Alba and be living with herpes. LMAO


Everyone wants to **** you...wait no one wants to **** you.

Hootie would still fuck her.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I saw an overview with Bubba Smith, and he flat out said that several players on the Cools were paid to throw that game.

I guess that wouldn't surprise me too much. A lot more opportunity for nefarious shit back then.

There have to have been dozens, if not hundreds, of games that have been intentionally thrown by either crooked players or officials.

[Direckshun]

NBA rigged the draft for Cleveland to give LeBron extra incentive to come back, also rigged it for Ewing to come to New York with the "frozen" envelope

100%.

NBA was on verge of losing the entire Cleveland area for a generation after LeBron left.

Here, have 3 #1 overalls in 4 years. Please don't quit us, Cleveland.

[Direckshun]

I forget who postulated it on this forum, but the NFL is punishing the Chiefs as a stand-in for the AFL for challenging the NFL back in the 60s.

[Discuss Thrower]

Where have you heard this before and what evidence can you present?

Here's another one:

According to Al Davis, the officials purposefully got the Immaculate Reception wrong because they were worried about their safety should they overturn the touchdown.
Len Dawson being investigated days before SB IV. The Vegas line in that game and SB III being so high in favor of the NFL teams.

[Jerm]

Bryan Tuohy is the guy for this...makes a living off of it...whether right or wrong, he sure is entertaining...

Have nothing to back it up but I absolutely believe Tiger was on PEDs in the late 90s to early 00s and the PGA completely turned a blind eye to it.

Others I believe are true are the Ewing draft, MJ's first "retirement", and Chris Paul/basketball reasons/NO getting the #1 pick.

Cal Ripken's streak being saved by a power outage is interesting too...

[lewdog]

HOW ABOUT TONIGHT?!

Orioles tie up a game against the Yankees with 3 runs in top of ninth so Jeter can come up in bottom of ninth and hit walkoff? Yup, he did.

YES, THIS JUST FUCKING HAPPENED! FUCK THE YANKEES.

[Saul Good]

HOW ABOUT TONIGHT?!

Orioles tie up a game against the Yankees with 3 runs in top of ninth so Jeter can come up in bottom of ninth and hit walkoff? Yup, he did.

YES, THIS JUST ****ING HAPPENED! **** THE YANKEES.

Came here to post this. Yes, it absolutely happened. Similar deal to George Brett.

[The Bad Guy]

That happened with Rick Majerus for a fact. Shit in a towel and wiped it clean during a board session.

Yep. His players even called him Pooptowel.

[Psyko Tek]

Roger Goodell had no idea

FYP
NO NEED FOR THANKS

[Hammock Parties]

So if Jeter has the herp...does his girlfriend have the herp? How does that work?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Probably a pretty good chance, but you're not guaranteed to transmit it to everyone every time. Also, some people may only have one or two outbreaks in their lives, others may have a turnstile of herpetic lesions.

[Discuss Thrower]

Also, some people may only have one or two outbreaks in their lives, others may have a turnstile of herpetic lesions.

But we'll talk about MTG's ex wife some other time.

[chiefzilla1501]

Shoeless Joe Jackson did throw the World Series, even though legend claims he was unjustly banned from baseball

[chiefzilla1501]

The main reason for the spike in home runs during the steroid era was moreso due to a juiced ball than because of performance enhancing drugs

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Shoeless Joe Jackson did throw the World Series, even though legend claims he was unjustly banned from baseball

Statistical analysis shows that it is highly unlikely that he did. He was the team's leading hitter in the WS and put up a .375/.394/.563 slash line.

[RunKC]

I think the NFL purposely helps nfl greats go out on top. Perfect example is the Seattle/Pitt SB.
That was some outlandish bullshit

[chiefzilla1501]

Statistical analysis shows that it is highly unlikely that he did. He was the team's leading hitter in the WS and put up a .375/.394/.563 slash line.

Shoeless Joe Jackson hit an outrageously high .545 in games they won. He hit really poorly in games they lost (which you would argue would be the games the team was trying to throw) and was accused of fielding balls slowly on defense. That's what makes it an interesting conspiracy theory. Maybe he was just legitimately bad at the wrong times, but he did seem to hit much better when it was conveniently okay for him to hit well.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Every pitch in a royals game/pete

[Don Corlemahomes]

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/strahan-flop.gif?w=650

[Discuss Thrower]

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/strahan-flop.gif?w=650

That's pretty bad.. If it were a bootleg, Favre would have at least completed the motion of handing it off.. If it were a pass he would have started looking upfield.

[TribalElder]

I think the NFL purposely helps nfl greats go out on top. Perfect example is the Seattle/Pitt SB.
That was some outlandish bullshit

Ray Lewis Ravens

[BWillie]

Baseball its rigged. I'm convinced. Last game at Yankee Stadium and he hits a walkoff...bullshit

[Silock]

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/strahan-flop.gif?w=650

Kinda looks like a guy that doesn't want to get obliterated. I've seen Cassel do that way too often.

[Buehler445]

The main reason for the spike in home runs during the steroid era was moreso due to a juiced ball than because of performance enhancing drugs

Explain.

[Nzoner]

In 1995 shortly after the Cowboys played the Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day Jerry Jones was interviewed and said he wanted no part of the KC defense if it came to that in that seasons SB.

KC that season had a kicker who shall go unnamed that not only was from Texas,went to school in Texas but better yet played with the Cowboys before coming to KC.

Fast forward to a frigid day in Jan when a dome team came to Arrowhead as a 10 point dog and knowing that Jerry Jones would sell his mother for a SB ring and you know the rest of the story so draw your own conclusions.

[Prison Bitch]

"Racial abuse" lulz

[blaise]

On the subject of fat people shitting - I once heard Jay Mohr say his friend worked at a hotel in New Jersey where pro wrestlers would stay when they got to town. The guy claimed Andre the Giant got adjoining hotel rooms, one for sleeping and the other so he could shit in the bath tub.

[chiefzilla1501]

Explain.
There's some real interesting reading on this. Cliff notes, and it doesn't begin to tell the story... First of all, steroids doesn't help as much as people think. Much of power is built in your lower body and hip rotation, and steroids doesn't help much there. Steroids helps with bat speed and to help balance your arms to allow for a quicker swing. No doubt steroids helps.

But juicing has been going on for years undetected. Who's to say the juicing in the home run era was far different from juicing in other eras? Two things we do know from history, however. Baseball's can be juiced or unjuiced. Not even just a little bit. Significantly. You'll recall that the solution to guys hitting a bazillion home runs at coors field was unjuicing the ball. The rockies hit a lot less home runs. If they did it there, who's to say San Francisco couldn't have unjuiced their baseballs too? It sure seems to me that baseball had the power to tone down the home runs but chose not to.

And historically, it's not like this is the first time we saw peaks and valleys in home runs. This isn't the first home run era in the history of baseball. We had a dead ball era, several spikes in home runs, and most believe those spikes are heavily attributed to changes in the baseball. So if you believe that players in the 50s weren't using steroids, how do we explain the several home run eras that occurred in baseball well before the 80s?

[blaise]

The one I believe isn't that outlandish - Jeff Van Gundy claimed an ex ref told him that the league told the refs before a Rockets/Mavs playoff game to call illegal screens on Yao Ming. Then in Game 3 they called two on him in a span of a minute or two in the first half.
Van Gundy said what he heard publicly and got fined like $75,000.
It was shady to me because it's one thing for another team to say watch this or that, but it seemed like the league told the refs to specifically target one player.
And it must have bothered Stern that the information went public because the fine he gave JVG was steep.

[blaise]

HOW ABOUT TONIGHT?!

Orioles tie up a game against the Yankees with 3 runs in top of ninth so Jeter can come up in bottom of ninth and hit walkoff? Yup, he did.

YES, THIS JUST ****ING HAPPENED! **** THE YANKEES.

I don't know about that but they could have walked Jeter.

[Reerun_KC]

I think the NFL purposely helps nfl greats go out on top. Perfect example is the Seattle/Pitt SB.
That was some outlandish bullshit

Who was an NFL great in that SuperBowl?

[TribalElder]

Jerome Bettis :shrug:

[ChiTown]

That happened with Rick Majerus for a fact. Shit in a towel and wiped it clean during a board session.

The F?

[Eleazar]

Isn't there some huge drug ring that is going to shake the NFL to its foundations? I think some local hack journo was going to expose it.

[Graystoke]

Muhammad Ali’s famous “phantom punch” against Sonny Liston in February 1964.

Liston took a dive to pay off the mob.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

I know for 100 percent fact that Mark Mangino was so fat that he had to wipe his ass with a towel and went through 6 graduate assistants in 6 years. He left shit covered towels everywhere, there was more than racial abuse going on at KU.

ROFL

Fatboy...

[chiefzilla1501]

The one I believe isn't that outlandish - Jeff Van Gundy claimed an ex ref told him that the league told the refs before a Rockets/Mavs playoff game to call illegal screens on Yao Ming. Then in Game 3 they called two on him in a span of a minute or two in the first half.
Van Gundy said what he heard publicly and got fined like $75,000.
It was shady to me because it's one thing for another team to say watch this or that, but it seemed like the league told the refs to specifically target one player.
And it must have bothered Stern that the information went public because the fine he gave JVG was steep.
If you read comments by Tim donaghy, it doesn't sound like conspiracy at all. He mentioned how refs would target superstar killers. Raja bell was an insanely good on ball defender but would get ticky tack calls from refs all the time.

[Eleazar]

Derek Jeter getting the game-winning hit in his last home game last night was probably a grooved pitch. Pretty common for the greats in baseball.

I read a story in the paper about how Ivan Rodriguez was catching George Brett's last at bat, and he whispered to Brett that they were bringing him nothing but fastballs.

[Hammock Parties]

Derek Jeter getting the game-winning hit in his last home game last night was probably a grooved pitch. Pretty common for the greats in baseball.

I read a story in the paper about how Ivan Rodriguez was catching George Brett's last at bat, and he whispered to Brett that they were bringing him nothing but fastballs.

Shit I thought the shortstop intentionally threw away the ball on his previous at-bat.

Throw was nowhere near the 2B.

[Easy 6]

Someone is sabotaging our players Achilles.

[Hammock Parties]

In 1995 shortly after the Cowboys played the Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day Jerry Jones was interviewed and said he wanted no part of the KC defense if it came to that in that seasons SB.

KC that season had a kicker who shall go unnamed that not only was from Texas,went to school in Texas but better yet played with the Cowboys before coming to KC.

Fast forward to a frigid day in Jan when a dome team came to Arrowhead as a 10 point dog and knowing that Jerry Jones would sell his mother for a SB ring and you know the rest of the story so draw your own conclusions.

Meh. The Cowboys had an elite defense of their own. They would have destroyed Bono.

[The Franchise]

Ray Lewis Ravens

And yet that blackout at the SB was because the NFL wanted the 49ers to at least make it a fucking game.

[bdj23]

In 1995 shortly after the Cowboys played the Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day Jerry Jones was interviewed and said he wanted no part of the KC defense if it came to that in that seasons SB.

KC that season had a kicker who shall go unnamed that not only was from Texas,went to school in Texas but better yet played with the Cowboys before coming to KC.

Fast forward to a frigid day in Jan when a dome team came to Arrowhead as a 10 point dog and knowing that Jerry Jones would sell his mother for a SB ring and you know the rest of the story so draw your own conclusions.

Excuse me while I go kill myself.

[KCCHIEFS27]

1972 US Basketball team losing to the Soviet Union. Totally rigged.
Bobby Riggs losing to Billie Jean King. Seriously?

[Discuss Thrower]

And yet that blackout at the SB was because the NFL wanted the 49ers to at least make it a fucking game.

Advertising money

[Rain Man]

Someone is sabotaging our players Achilles.


Is there a team in the league that has a midget cheater on their roster who needs money to support his drug habit?

WELKER!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

In 1995 shortly after the Cowboys played the Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day Jerry Jones was interviewed and said he wanted no part of the KC defense if it came to that in that seasons SB.

KC that season had a kicker who shall go unnamed that not only was from Texas,went to school in Texas but better yet played with the Cowboys before coming to KC.

Fast forward to a frigid day in Jan when a dome team came to Arrowhead as a 10 point dog and knowing that Jerry Jones would sell his mother for a SB ring and you know the rest of the story so draw your own conclusions.

The Cowboys fucking dismantled the Chiefs on Thanksgiving. That Super Bowl would have been an ass kicking.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

There's some real interesting reading on this. Cliff notes, and it doesn't begin to tell the story... First of all, steroids doesn't help as much as people think. Much of power is built in your lower body and hip rotation, and steroids doesn't help much there. Steroids helps with bat speed and to help balance your arms to allow for a quicker swing. No doubt steroids helps.

But juicing has been going on for years undetected. Who's to say the juicing in the home run era was far different from juicing in other eras? Two things we do know from history, however. Baseball's can be juiced or unjuiced. Not even just a little bit. Significantly. You'll recall that the solution to guys hitting a bazillion home runs at coors field was unjuicing the ball. The rockies hit a lot less home runs. If they did it there, who's to say San Francisco couldn't have unjuiced their baseballs too? It sure seems to me that baseball had the power to tone down the home runs but chose not to.

And historically, it's not like this is the first time we saw peaks and valleys in home runs. This isn't the first home run era in the history of baseball. We had a dead ball era, several spikes in home runs, and most believe those spikes are heavily attributed to changes in the baseball. So if you believe that players in the 50s weren't using steroids, how do we explain the several home run eras that occurred in baseball well before the 80s?

Amphetamines can account for an uptick.

Also, bat speed is the most important factor to hitting a baseball a long way. If you have a 70 mph bat speed and you center it, it's still not going out. If you have a 105 mph bat speed you can hit one off center and still drive it out of the park.

Coors used humidity, which adds weight to the balls via moisture.

The balls would only be "juiced" if they had a higher coefficient of restitution. That is, they must be able to both deform and spring back to their original shape quickly. If they just deform, it's like hitting a marshmallow and it goes nowhere. If it is just hard, it's like hitting a rock and it goes nowhere. You would need a core material that is both compressible and highly resilient.

There have been various studies about it, but nothing definitive suggesting a real change in the manufacture of baseballs at that time. Moreover, if they found a way to juice the ball, why wouldn't they keep it juiced, and why did the implementation of testing directly correlate with a decrease in HR rates?

There are counterarguments to the above factors I've listed, but overall evidence is lacking.

[ChiefsCountry]

The Cowboys ****ing dismantled the Chiefs on Thanksgiving. That Super Bowl would have been an ass kicking.

Michael Irvin raped Dale Carter that day.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Ugly, it was.

[chiefzilla1501]

Amphetamines can account for an uptick.

Also, bat speed is the most important factor to hitting a baseball a long way. If you have a 70 mph bat speed and you center it, it's still not going out. If you have a 105 mph bat speed you can hit one off center and still drive it out of the park.

Coors used humidity, which adds weight to the balls via moisture.

The balls would only be "juiced" if they had a higher coefficient of restitution. That is, they must be able to both deform and spring back to their original shape quickly. If they just deform, it's like hitting a marshmallow and it goes nowhere. If it is just hard, it's like hitting a rock and it goes nowhere. You would need a core material that is both compressible and highly resilient.

There have been various studies about it, but nothing definitive suggesting a real change in the manufacture of baseballs at that time. Moreover, if they found a way to juice the ball, why wouldn't they keep it juiced, and why did the implementation of testing directly correlate with a decrease in HR rates?

There are counterarguments to the above factors I've listed, but overall evidence is lacking.
Yes, but the argument is that bat speed is widely generated by muscle strength. I don't think it always is. It helps somewhat and granted that somewhat in split seconds is a big advantage. It still doesn't for me answer the question of why the spike then. Should we assume that before Sosa and McGuire and bonds, nobody was juicing?

I do disagree about baseballs. I think they can be juiced or unjuiced pretty easily. The way Selig turned a complete blind eye to steroids, wouldn't surprise me at all if baseball manipulated baseballs to keep home run counts down to prove that steroid testing was working.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yes, but the argument is that bat speed is widely generated by muscle strength. I don't think it always is. It helps somewhat and granted that somewhat in split seconds is a big advantage. It still doesn't for me answer the question of why the spike then. Should we assume that before Sosa and McGuire and bonds, nobody was juicing?

I do disagree about baseballs. I think they can be juiced or unjuiced pretty easily. The way Selig turned a complete blind eye to steroids, wouldn't surprise me at all if baseball manipulated baseballs to keep home run counts down to prove that steroid testing was working.

Bat speed is generated by strength and flexibility. Flexibility can be learned to a degree, but you can only wind and unwind your hips so fast. That's why I can train as much as I want the rest of my life and I'll never hit a golf ball as far as Rory McIlroy despite having a larger swing arc and being just as flexible. (I can put my feet behind my head and turn my shoulders 120* to my spine angle...doesn't matter much, really)

Strength can make a significant difference. It's just easier to swing a 34 ounce stick at high speeds if you are stronger. Not only do they have more upper body strength but more musculature in the legs allows for a better base of support.

[Dave Lane]

Explain.

You spelled insane wrong.

[chiefzilla1501]

Bat speed is generated by strength and flexibility. Flexibility can be learned to a degree, but you can only wind and unwind your hips so fast. That's why I can train as much as I want the rest of my life and I'll never hit a golf ball as far as Rory McIlroy despite having a larger swing arc and being just as flexible. (I can put my feet behind my head and turn my shoulders 120* to my spine angle...doesn't matter much, really)

Strength can make a significant difference. It's just easier to swing a 34 ounce stick at high speeds if you are stronger. Not only do they have more upper body strength but more musculature in the legs allows for a better base of support.
Agree on upper body. Read that the bicep strength creates kind of a balance point that stabilizes your swing. I've heard that steroids doesn't do a whole lot for your legs. One of the reasons why I think some think the positive effects may be exaggerated. Definitely performance enhancing but maybe not as much as people think.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Agree on upper body. Read that the bicep strength creates kind of a balance point that stabilizes your swing. I've heard that steroids doesn't do a whole lot for your legs. One of the reasons why I think some think the positive effects may be exaggerated. Definitely performance enhancing but maybe not as much as people think.

Gas also helps you recover faster, which can account for more consistent power numbers. Baseball is a long grind. If your body feels fresher more often, better results should follow.

[chiefzilla1501]

Gas also helps you recover faster, which can account for more consistent power numbers. Baseball is a long grind. If your body feels fresher more often, better results should follow.
Definitely see that. Especially for players like bonds who were popping insane numbers at the Twilight of their career. Never thought of it in terms of late season Homers but that makes sense too.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Definitely see that. Especially for players like bonds who were popping insane numbers at the Twilight of their career. Never thought of it in terms of late season Homers but that makes sense too.

The dilution of pitching and the smaller parks helped, too. A lot of factors overall, but I do think that PEDs were the largest single contributor.

Imagine if you were Ryan Howard and you were born in 1960 instead of 1980. You'd play your entire career in a cavernous shithole like the Vet instead of Citizens Bank Bandbox.

[J Diddy]

I think the Chiefs trainers are employed as double agents by the Broncos. With all that access and their tendon death ray they are wreaking havoc.

[Bugeater]

Advertising money
Then why wasn't there a blackout during last year's super bowl? .
Posted via Mobile Device

[Discuss Thrower]

Then why wasn't there a blackout during last year's super bowl? .
Posted via Mobile Device

Probably wouldn't be wise to do it a second time and in the largest city in the country / the headquarters for the league.

[SeeingRed]

Mike Catapano was put back out on the field, flown in airplanes and given anesthesia all while having a documented concussion in august that somehow nobody saw until over a month later. fucked up and so negligent if true

[GloucesterChief]

Yes, but the argument is that bat speed is widely generated by muscle strength. I don't think it always is. It helps somewhat and granted that somewhat in split seconds is a big advantage. It still doesn't for me answer the question of why the spike then. Should we assume that before Sosa and McGuire and bonds, nobody was juicing?

I do disagree about baseballs. I think they can be juiced or unjuiced pretty easily. The way Selig turned a complete blind eye to steroids, wouldn't surprise me at all if baseball manipulated baseballs to keep home run counts down to prove that steroid testing was working.


It is somewhat cyclical in baseball though. When it is a hitters era teams are looking to draft and develop a lot of pitchers to counteract hitters. When it is a pitchers era then teams draft hitters to counteract the good pitching.

It is a lagging trend due to the minors and the decisions made by the kids in high school before they come up to the majors.

[Jerm]

Other underrated ones that I find interesting...

- Michael Phelps "win" in the 100m butterfly at the 2008 Olympics
- Jordan being poisoned deliberately via pizza the night before the Flu Game
- The NFL's master cover up of Spygate and said evidence

There's plenty more...they're all so interesting....

[UL Washington]

(I can put my feet behind my head and turn my shoulders 120* to my spine angle...d

That's a little gay...

[displacedinMN]

In 1995 shortly after the Cowboys played the Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day Jerry Jones was interviewed and said he wanted no part of the KC defense if it came to that in that seasons SB.

KC that season had a kicker who shall go unnamed that not only was from Texas,went to school in Texas but better yet played with the Cowboys before coming to KC.

Fast forward to a frigid day in Jan when a dome team came to Arrowhead as a 10 point dog and knowing that Jerry Jones would sell his mother for a SB ring and you know the rest of the story so draw your own conclusions.

I like that one. Had never heard it. I will buy.

The crazier the better.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That's a little gay...

Two different moves. Don't worry, I haven't tried to suck my own dick.

[BigCatDaddy]

Agree on upper body. Read that the bicep strength creates kind of a balance point that stabilizes your swing. <b>I've heard that steroids doesn't do a whole lot for your legs</b>. One of the reasons why I think some think the positive effects may be exaggerated. Definitely performance enhancing but maybe not as much as people think.

That's a good conspiracy theory right there. Steroids only target specific muscles.

[KC_Connection]

Moreover, if they found a way to juice the ball, why wouldn't they keep it juiced,

Oh, I think there's a pretty obvious explanation to that. It would give the appearance that their testing is effective.

There has been such an enormous decline in offense in such a short period of time (the MLB average OPS was .768 in 2006, it's .701 now) that it's hard not to believe there's not at least some basis to this theory (http://deadspin.com/5937432/was-mlbs-juiced-era-actually-a-juiced-ball-era).

[BigCatDaddy]

Oh, I think there's a pretty obvious explanation to that. It would give the appearance that their testing is effective.

There has been such an enormous decline in offense in such a short period of time (the MLB average OPS was .768 in 2006, it's .701 now) that it's hard not to believe there's not at least some basis to this theory (http://deadspin.com/5937432/was-mlbs-juiced-era-actually-a-juiced-ball-era).

Why wouldn't the testing be effective?

[KC_Connection]

Yes, but the argument is that bat speed is widely generated by muscle strength. I don't think it always is. It helps somewhat and granted that somewhat in split seconds is a big advantage. It still doesn't for me answer the question of why the spike then. Should we assume that before Sosa and McGuire and bonds, nobody was juicing?

Yeah, the last time offensive levels were this low in baseballs was in the late 80s/early 90s (a time where no testing was in place and players were taking tons of PEDs). It all points to there being other explainable factors.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Oh, I think there's a pretty obvious explanation to that. It would give the appearance that their testing is effective.

There has been such an enormous decline in offense in such a short period of time (the MLB average OPS was .768 in 2006, it's .701 now) that it's hard not to believe there's not at least some basis to this theory (http://deadspin.com/5937432/was-mlbs-juiced-era-actually-a-juiced-ball-era).

Save that it's bad for business for offense to drop off. People don't actually care about PEDs. If they did, the NFL wouldn't exist.

[KC_Connection]

Why wouldn't the testing be effective?
I'm not saying it wouldn't be/wasn't (although they're obviously not catching every user). For MLB, the appearance of effectiveness is far more important to them than whether it actually is, though.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yeah, the last time offensive levels were this low in baseballs was in the late 80s/early 90s (a time where no testing was in place and players were taking tons of PEDs). It all points to there being other explainable factors.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't square with physics. Steroids make you stronger, which translates into more speed. Given your country of residence you should know all about the steroid-speed connection.

Furthermore, baseball was having a HUGE offensive season in '94 before the strike, and there was no impetus to bring fans back because they hadn't yet left.

Bonds is an excellent test case. Over dinner with Griffey he admitted to wanting to use after '98, then comes out and has the three greatest offensive seasons of his career, hitting 50% more HRs than he had previous to any season in 2001.

If the ball was juiced before, why did someone in the clear decline phase of his career have such a precipitous increase in offense?

How do you explain Brady Anderson, Greg Vaughn, and numerous other players who hit 50 out of nowhere?

[BigCatDaddy]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be/wasn't (although they're obviously not catching every user). For MLB, the appearance of effectiveness is far more important to them than whether it actually is, though.

No, they aren't catching every user, but what they are doing is forcing players to use more short term and less effective PED's than the long anabolic cycles of 10 years ago. Most of the stuff today is more to do with injury issues than performance which is why you see guys like Cruz and Melky still producing about the same after getting caught. PED's is just such a broad term.

[KC_Connection]

Save that it's bad for business for offense to drop off.

But has it been bad for business, though? MLB is doing more than fine with offense at the lowest level it's been in 20 years.


People don't actually care about PEDs. If they did, the NFL wouldn't exist.
I agree for the most part, but it had reached a bit of a crisis point around the time we're talking about (and MLB certainly can't be compared with the NFL's place in American sports culture). Selig even took it seriously enough to initiate the Mitchell Report and blackball Bonds out of the sport.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

But has it been bad for business, though? MLB is doing more than fine with offense at the lowest level it's been in 20 years.


I agree for the most part, but it had reached a bit of a crisis point around the time we're talking about (and MLB certainly can't be compared with the NFL's place in American sports culture). Selig even took it seriously enough to initiate the Mitchell Report and blackball Bonds out of the sport.

TV ratings suggest that it has hurt.

Baseball's cartoonish offenses did a better job of pulling in people who weren't actually baseball fans. That is what the NFL does so well. It markets itself perfectly to people who don't actually like football but flashing lights and big numbers.

[KC_Connection]

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't square with physics. Steroids make you stronger, which translates into more speed.

What doesn't square with physics? I'm not denying steroids help. I'm suggesting there are other factors beyond steroids that help explain the cycles of offense throughout baseball history (and I think it's pretty obvious that there are).


Given your country of residence you should know all about the steroid-speed connection.
Ben did have to get on the same equal ground as Carl, after all.



How do you explain Brady Anderson, Greg Vaughn, and numerous other players who hit 50 out of nowhere?
Juiced baseballs, steroids, smaller ballparks, expansion, etc. If the direct source of Brady Anderson's 50 HR season was steroid use, I've always wondered why he stopped the following year and never repeated it.

[KC_Connection]

TV ratings suggest that it has hurt.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24649044/mlb-a-regional-tv-ratings-monster

The NFL has obviously replaced MLB as the #1 sport in America, but MLB is doing fine in that regard.


Baseball's cartoonish offenses did a better job of pulling in people who weren't actually baseball fans. That is what the NFL does so well. It markets itself perfectly to people who don't actually like football but flashing lights and big numbers.
If baseball is ever hurting for money, I have no doubt that we'll see offensive levels climb right back up again...one way or another.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

What doesn't square with physics? I'm not denying steroids help. I'm suggesting there are other factors beyond steroids that help explain the cycles of offense throughout baseball history (and I think it's pretty obvious that there are).


Ben did have to get on the same equal ground as Carl, after all.



Juiced baseballs, steroids, smaller ballparks, expansion, etc. If the direct source of Brady Anderson's 50 HR season was steroid use, I've always wondered why he stopped the following year and never repeated it.


We've mentioned the contributing factors already. Park size obviously made an impact, as did pitching dilution. But I think if you consider the evolution of offense in the 90s, it paints a compelling case for steroids as the largest single factor.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24649044/mlb-a-regional-tv-ratings-monster

The NFL has obviously replaced MLB as the #1 sport in America, but MLB is doing fine in that regard.


If baseball is ever hurting for money, I have no doubt that we'll see offensive levels climb right back up again...one way or another.


The World Series is a good indicator of general support. MLB will always have strong local support because it's the only sport in town for most of the summer.

[KC_Connection]

We've mentioned the contributing factors already. Park size obviously made an impact, as did pitching dilution. But I think if you consider the evolution of offense in the 90s, it paints a compelling case for steroids as the largest single factor.
Am I supposed to believe steroid use only became common in the mid-90s, then? That guys were not doing it in the late 80s/early 90s (the last time offense in baseball looked like this)?

I don't buy it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Am I supposed to believe steroid use only became common in the mid-90s, then? That guys were not doing it in the late 80s/early 90s (the last time offense in baseball looked like this)?

I don't buy it.

Do you remember the size of baseball players in the 90s compared to the 80s? Remember, extant isn't common.

http://razzball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/mark-mcgwire2.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0_2kwApewho/TSUBwOxMDcI/AAAAAAAAAZ0/pPLEi-FS04I/s1600/mark-mcgwire.jpg

[KC_Connection]

The World Series is a good indicator of general support. MLB will always have strong local support because it's the only sport in town for most of the summer.
There's no doubt baseball doesn't have the same place in the national sports scene that it used to (especially in October during football season), but it's a bit of a myth to suggest that MLB is hurting at all there (see the influx of cash due to the massive TV contracts most of these clubs are signing).

['Hamas' Jenkins]

There's no doubt baseball doesn't have the same place in the national sports scene that it used to (especially in October during football season), but it's a bit of a myth to suggest that MLB is hurting at all there (see the influx of cash due to the massive TV contracts most of these clubs are signing).

That influx of cash has to do with the live sports bubble that every sport is currently enjoying due to the value of not time-shifting and missing ads.

Again, look at local TV ratings for NBA teams. You'll find the same pattern. There isn't broad national support for a random baseball game; there is specific regional support for an area's team.

That conveys an interest in the team rather than the sport.

Baseball isn't dying/hurting. I never claimed it was. But it certainly believed it was at one point, and the crazy offensive numbers helped bring it some needed attention and (initially) good press.

[KC_Connection]

Do you remember the size of baseball players in the 90s compared to the 80s?

Posting a picture of the difference between the 25 year old and 35 year old Mark McGwire doesn't exactly prove that baseball players weren't using a ton of steroids in the 80s/90s. If they weren't, baseball was somehow way behind the rest of the world of sports (and I don't believe that at all).

[KC_Connection]

Canseco, FWIW, said it was already common by the time we're talking about.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Posting a picture of the difference between the 25 year old and 35 year old Mark McGwire doesn't exactly prove that baseball players weren't using a ton of steroids in the 80s/90s. If they weren't, baseball was somehow way behind the rest of the world of sports (and I don't believe that at all).

I posted one picture for the sake of brevity. Would you like pictures of Sosa, Bonds, Ivan Rodgriguez, or dozens and dozens of other players?

[KC_Connection]

Baseball isn't dying/hurting. I never claimed it was. But it certainly believed it was at one point, and the crazy offensive numbers helped bring it some needed attention and (initially) good press.
And as soon as all that offense shifted into bad press and attention (with fans/media starting to doubt the credibility of the sport and its numbers), offense went right back down again seemingly in response.

[KC_Connection]

I posted one picture for the sake of brevity. Would you like pictures of Sosa, Bonds, Ivan Rodgriguez, or dozens and dozens of other players?
You can post all the pictures you want, it isn't going to prove that all major league baseball players started using steroids exactly in 1994.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

And as soon as all that offense shifted into bad press and attention (with fans/media starting to doubt the credibility of the sport and its numbers), offense went right back down again seemingly in response.

And the players slimmed right down, too.

[KC_Connection]

And the players slimmed right down, too.
You're again confusing me for somebody that thinks steroids weren't a factor (or that their usage hasn't declined from where it was 15-20 years ago). But I can also point to many users during the same time period (or even now...look at Ryan Braun) who weren't bulked up like McGwire/Bonds at all, it's hardly definitive proof of anything.

[Jerm]

Steroids are played out lol...much better sports conspiracies out there....

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You're again confusing me for somebody that thinks steroids weren't a factor (or that their usage hasn't declined from where it was 15-20 years ago). But I can also point to many users during the same time period (or even now...look at Ryan Braun) who weren't bulked up like McGwire/Bonds at all, it's hardly definitive proof of anything.

If professional athletes put on 15-20 pounds of muscle mass in an offseason then lose that as soon as stricter testing is implemented, AND their offensive production lapses, the transitive property is pretty clear.

[KC_Connection]

If professional athletes put on 15-20 pounds of muscle mass in an offseason then lose that as soon as stricter testing is implemented, AND their offensive production lapses, the transitive property is pretty clear.
I'm still not sure how any of this proves steroids weren't common in baseball at the time we're talking about. Because Mark McGwire wasn't working out and taking the same drugs in 1988 that he was in 1998?

[TimBone]

Well this thread started out interesting.

[Rams Fan]

The Royals made the POs in Selig's last season as commissioner so he can claim that all 30 MLB teams have made the POs under his tenure. Additionally, the WC play in game was created just for this occasion.

JK

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I'm still not sure how any of this proves steroids weren't common in baseball at the time we're talking about. Because Mark McGwire wasn't working out and taking the same drugs in 1988 that he was in 1998?

Admissions of the players, sudden, unsustainable spikes in HR rate (that would have stayed elevated if it were merely the ball, since that stayed constant, as did park sizes once they shrunk)? Guys with massive builds out of nowhere, growing heads, F=ma...

[KC_Connection]

Former major league pitcher Tom House used steroids during his career and said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Tuesday.

House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves' bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, and that he tried human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" he could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2052364

Am I supposed to believe this kind of attitude somehow changed in the 80s and 90s? That pro athletes suddenly wouldn't stop doing anything and everything to better themselves and stay in the sport (especially when it wasn't even against the rules and there was no testing system)? Let's not exhibit the same willful ignorance that MLB did for years, Hamas.

[KC_Connection]

Admissions of the players,.
Plenty of players have admitted steroid use was common in baseball long before 1994.


sudden, unsustainable spikes in HR rate (that would have stayed elevated if it were merely the ball, since that stayed constant, as did park sizes once they shrunk)?
Steroid use plus all of those other factors at once (juiced baseballs, ballpark size, expansion, etc.) would certainly explain that better than just steroid use (which had been an epidemic in the sport long before that time).

[Saul Good]

Yes, but the argument is that bat speed is widely generated by muscle strength. I don't think it always is. It helps somewhat and granted that somewhat in split seconds is a big advantage. It still doesn't for me answer the question of why the spike then. Should we assume that before Sosa and McGuire and bonds, nobody was juicing?

I do disagree about baseballs. I think they can be juiced or unjuiced pretty easily. The way Selig turned a complete blind eye to steroids, wouldn't surprise me at all if baseball manipulated baseballs to keep home run counts down to prove that steroid testing was working.

If it were due to a juiced ball, all players would be affected equally. There's a reason that all of the guys who were breaking records were juicers. Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod, Giambi...all juicing.

[Saul Good]

Other underrated ones that I find interesting...

- Michael Phelps "win" in the 100m butterfly at the 2008 Olympics
- Jordan being poisoned deliberately via pizza the night before the Flu Game
- The NFL's master cover up of Spygate and said evidence

There's plenty more...they're all so interesting....

Jordan was hungover. Maybe it was alcohol poisoning, but he did it to himself.

[KC_Connection]

If it were due to a juiced ball, all players would be affected equally. There's a reason that all of the guys who were breaking records were juicers. Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod, Giambi...all juicing.
It can be argued it was because those guys were the best among their peers anyway (and were that much better with steroids aiding their numbers). Steroids aren't going to turn a scrub into a star.

[Saul Good]

It can be argued it was because those guys were the best among their peers anyway (and were that much better with steroids aiding their numbers). Steroids aren't going to turn a scrub into a star.

Sosa was the among the best? Really?

[Saul Good]

Plenty of players have admitted steroid use was common in baseball long before 1994.


Steroid use plus all of those other factors at once (juiced baseballs, ballpark size, expansion, etc.) would certainly explain that better than just steroid use (which had been an epidemic in the sport long before that time).

Maybe the product improved and doctors got better at administering it.

[KC_Connection]

Sosa was the among the best? Really?
Not at the stature of those others, but he was still very good before those years.

[KC_Connection]

Maybe the product improved and doctors got better at administering it.
Absolutely think that could be the case as well.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Plenty of players have admitted steroid use was common in baseball long before 1994.


Steroid use plus all of those other factors at once (juiced baseballs, ballpark size, expansion, etc.) would certainly explain that better than just steroid use (which had been an epidemic in the sport long before that time).

I've been caught up in an epic shitstorm gagfest of a Cardinals game, but I've told you multiple times in this thread that the causes were overdetermined.

[Saul Good]

Not at the stature of those others, but he was still very good before those years.

He was a fringe Major Leaguer for the first four years of his career. He was already on his third team by that point.

[KC_Connection]

He was a fringe Major Leaguer for the first four years of his career. He was already on his third team by that point.
That's not exactly unusual in baseball. Not everybody is good immediately like Trout/Harper, it takes some time (and it did for Sosa to even become the player he was before the 60+ HR years).

[KC_Connection]

I've been caught up in an epic shitstorm gagfest of a Cardinals game, but I've told you multiple times in this thread that the causes were overdetermined.
Fortunately Arizona is just that bad.

[chiefzilla1501]

The dilution of pitching and the smaller parks helped, too. A lot of factors overall, but I do think that PEDs were the largest single contributor.

Imagine if you were Ryan Howard and you were born in 1960 instead of 1980. You'd play your entire career in a cavernous shithole like the Vet instead of Citizens Bank Bandbox.

That's definitely accurate. Perhaps my conspiracy theory should be more along the lines that the spike in home runs during the so-called steroid era had a lot more to do with other factors than it did steroids.

Yes, home runs spiked during that era. I would bet the balls were juiced which makes some appreciable difference. Yes, ballparks become more hitter friendly and yes, pitching got worse due to league expansion. Let's throw in a few more. The strike zone decreased in 1996. New ballparks not only shortened the fences, but also in many cases restricted foul territory giving more players a shot. Mass increases in legal supplements and weight training (granted, weight training is boosted by steroid use). Maple bats. Improving video training (exhibit A - Jose Bautista. Exhibit B - Curtis Granderson). Can we also point out that Bonds started wearing that ridiculous elbow pad and got away taking an entire part of the plate?

Factors that could explain the offensive dropoff after steroids. Is it outrageous to think the MLB might deaden the baseball knowing the steroid scrutiny? Hitters are walking less and K'ing more. Defenses are becoming extremely innovative at defensive shifts. Defense in general has improved a shit ton and you have guys like Billy Beane building teams primarily on defense. Pitching has improved considerably and I've read that strikes thrown has increased dramatically. One more interesting HUGE difference. Even though the strike zone hasn't changed, analyses show that the strike zone has increased considerably the past few years. (edit: one more. Pitching velocity has increased dramatically. Not for the better. Tommy John surgeries have also increased dramatically). CONSPIRACY THEORY? Did the MLB increase the strike zone and deaden balls to reduce hitting?

Here's the interesting question... let's assume no ballparks changed, the level of pitching stayed the same, and balls weren't juiced. How much would Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa have improved production without PEDs? Bonds and McGwire were massive power hitters way before they ballooned in size. Now, would Bonds have been able to maintain production at his late age without PEDs? I bet not. I don't know if any of those guys could hit 60+ home runs. But I bet they could easily top 50 without any PEDs.

[Buehler445]

Even then 50 to 60 is a 20% increase. That's enormous.

[chiefzilla1501]

Even then 50 to 60 is a 20% increase. That's enormous.

Well then let's raise the stakes. Reduced strike zone, juiced ball, really bad pitching, ballparks with shorter fences/less foul territory, maple bats, improved strength training and legal supplements, major improvements in video technology. Those things probably all coming to a head right at about the steroid era.

Who's to say those guys wouldn't have seen appreciable home run spikes even without PED use? (Ignoring that maybe steroids prolonged some careers)

[Jerm]

Jordan was hungover. Maybe it was alcohol poisoning, but he did it to himself.

Yeah that's the prevailing thought, which is crazy in itself, but the intentional food poisoning angle is too juicy lol....

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Surely there's a Pink-Kel conspiracy theory. I mean for god's sake, the mans record is like Schottenheimer minus actually getting a shot at the golden ring.

I haven't been paying much attention to MU since the realignment, but I would imagine that boy has got to be severely outmatched in the SEC.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Surely there's a Pink-Kel conspiracy theory. I mean for god's sake, the mans record is like Schottenheimer minus actually getting a shot at the golden ring.

I haven't been paying much attention to MU since the realignment, but I would imagine that boy has got to be severely outmatched in the SEC.

Pinkel's divorce was caused by his affair with then-Columbia meteorologist Michelle Bogowith, whom he impregnated. After this was found out, she was shuffled out of Columbia to land at KC Channel 4.

Good enough?

[Buehler445]

Well then let's raise the stakes. Reduced strike zone, juiced ball, really bad pitching, ballparks with shorter fences/less foul territory, maple bats, improved strength training and legal supplements, major improvements in video technology. Those things probably all coming to a head right at about the steroid era.

Who's to say those guys wouldn't have seen appreciable home run spikes even without PED use? (Ignoring that maybe steroids prolonged some careers)

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm merely pointing out that a 20% increase is HUGE.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Pinkel's divorce was caused by his affair with then-Columbia meteorologist Michelle Bogowith, whom he impregnated. After this was found out, she was shuffled out of Columbia to land at KC Channel 4.

Good enough?

It'll do.