Hemingway so far

[AustinChief]

So, how does everyone feel about Junior so far this year?

I am disappointed with the amount of targets (9) and he has 1 drop (and it was a bad one) but the rest of his stats are decent. 9.8 yds per reception. 24 yards after catch. And all 4 of his catches have been for 1st downs.

The one thing that has been impressive has been his downfield blocking. Of our WRs he is head and shoulders beyond anyone in this category. I'd actually like to see a stat for yardage on runs/screens/swing passes to his side when he is on the field.

So any thoughts on why he isn't seeing the field more(as a receiving threat and not just a blocker)? I know Htismaqe will say it's because he has trouble learning the offense(any offense) and this may be true. I agree with this to an extent but I expected him to be able to pick it up by now.

[ThaVirus]

I've heard of this big drop more than once in the past couple days but don't remember when it occurred.

Can anyone remind me?

[O.city]

Better in the slot than Dex was

[Molitoth]

I've seen nothing but good from him when the passes go his way. I'd love to see more.

(I must have missed the big drop too), but that is not surprising considering I have little munchkins that are asking for Juice and snacks every 5 minutes during the games.

[Jimmya]

Need to see more from him.

[O.city]

Iirc the drop was against the Pats.

[Frosty]

Iirc the drop was against the Pats.

Yeah, it was on 2nd and long (like 18, iirc). The catch would have made a 3rd down conversion easier. On the next play, Smith threw it to Bowe short of the sticks and they had to punt.

[O.city]

He's not a star by any means, but you need some junior hemingways on your roster. Does a lot of good things for this squad.

For a 7th round pick, that's all you can ask for

[RealSNR]

He's better than Jenkins.

[O.city]

He's better than Jenkins.

After this Sunday, you'll be singing a different tune.

Jenkins goes hamm on the 9ers to the tune of 6/110/1

[Mr. Laz]

Better in the slot than Dex was

that's just dumb

no way is he better ........... yet.

better blocker

[ModSocks]

Better in the slot than Dex was

Not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion. He hasn't come near the production that Dex had.

Hemingway's best asset is his special teams play. He's our new Terrance Copper.

[RealSNR]

After this Sunday, you'll be singing a different tune.

Jenkins goes hamm on the 9ers to the tune of 6/110/1

If Jenkins cracks 100 yards against the 49ers, I'll ask a mod to change my name to Susan for 2 weeks.

[BigMeatballDave]

Hemingway is a Jag.

Not sure why anyone gives a shit about him.

[O.city]

He's already made more people miss after the catch than dexter did in his tenure, and that's with catching like 1/8th of the balls mccluster did.

Dexter was a good pair of hands and a decent possession wr out of the slot.

Hemingway is already that, plus he adds much more special teams wise.

He just doesn't have the production yet, but he really hasn't had the chance

[O.city]

If Jenkins cracks 100 yards against the 49ers, I'll ask a mod to change my name to Susan for 2 weeks.

Deal?

[RealSNR]

Hemingway is a Jag.

Not sure why anyone gives a shit about him.

Who's giving a shit about him?

Everybody seems to be saying, "He's good on special teams, blocking, not bad for a 7th round pick, etc."

[Frosty]

Hemingway is a Jag.

Not sure why anyone gives a shit about him.

Michigan

[O.city]

Who's giving a shit about him?

Everybody seems to be saying, "He's good on special teams, blocking, not bad for a 7th round pick, etc."

He's basically exactly what you want out if a 7th rounder.

Plus value actually

[RealSNR]

Deal?

He has 146 yards for his CAREER.

He's not cracking 100 yards in one game against a team who knows him pretty well and what his limitations are.

You don't even need to bet me on it. That's just what I'm going to do if he cracks 100 yards.

I'll also change my name to Susan if the gravitational constant of the universe ever changes.

It's not going to happen.

[Frosty]

How awesome would a game winning TD pass from Smith to Jenkins be? The 49ers fans' heads would explode.

[O.city]

He has 146 yards for his CAREER.

He's not cracking 100 yards in one game against a team who knows him pretty well and what his limitations are.

You don't even need to bet me on it. That's just what I'm going to do if he cracks 100 yards.

I'll also change my name to Susan if the gravitational constant of the universe ever changes.

It's not going to happen.

Ok, first off he has no limitations.

Second, the constant could change due to global warming

[ModSocks]

He's already made more people miss after the catch than dexter did in his tenure, and that's with catching like 1/8th of the balls mccluster did.

Dexter was a good pair of hands and a decent possession wr out of the slot.

Hemingway is already that, plus he adds much more special teams wise.

He just doesn't have the production yet, but he really hasn't had the chance

He doesn't have the production yet because he doesn't have the quickness to get open the slot. Dexter had an excellent pair of hands.

Hemingway is NOT already that. He has shown very little other than the occasional catch here and there.

And how can you say he adds more to special teams? They're both great special teamers and they served different roles, but to say Hemingway adds MORE is a bit suspect.

[ModSocks]

Who's giving a shit about him?

Everybody seems to be saying, "He's good on special teams, blocking, not bad for a 7th round pick, etc."

The argument is that he's better than McCluster and there is nothing to support that other than bias.

[RealSNR]

The argument is that he's better than McCluster and there is nothing to support that other than bias.

I don't think he's a better receiver than McCluster, who ended up FINALLY figuring shit out as a short range possession receiver on slants and crosses. None of this bullshit with designed plays and attempts to get him the ball in space because HE MAKEZ PPL MISSSS!!!!1111one11.

I'm still pissed about the McCluster pick in 2010 and all of the plays we fucking wasted forcing the ball into his overrated hands when the REAL guy who could make those plays was on the roster the entire fucking time in Jamaal Charles.

[Dunerdr]

He's already made more people miss after the catch than dexter did in his tenure, and that's with catching like 1/8th of the balls mccluster did.

Dexter was a good pair of hands and a decent possession wr out of the slot.

Hemingway is already that, plus he adds much more special teams wise.

He just doesn't have the production yet, but he really hasn't had the chance

More special teams wise than dex? I'm anti dex and cannot be on board with you now.

[RealSNR]

Ok, first off he has no limitations.

Second, the constant could change due to global warming

Jenkins may one day rack up 100 yards receiving in a game.

There's a less than 1% chance that next week against the 49ers is the game in which that happens.

[O.city]

He doesn't have the production yet because he doesn't have the quickness to get open the slot. Dexter had an excellent pair of hands.

Hemingway is NOT already that. He has shown very little other than the occasional catch here and there.

And how can you say he adds more to special teams? They're both great special teamers and they served different roles, but to say Hemingway adds MORE is a bit suspect.

How much of what dexter did on special teams was him making people miss, or Dave Toub?

Hemingway caught a pass against the Dolphins, made 2 people miss and got a first down. He's already more elusive than Dexter ever was.

Yeah, he carved out a little niche as a 3rd down slot possession wr, finding holes in zones.

[Easy 6]

When I think about Hemingway, the thing that excites me the most is the thought of replacing him next year.

Along with several others.

[Dunerdr]

How much of what dexter did on special teams was him making people miss, or Dave Toub?

Hemingway caught a pass against the Dolphins, made 2 people miss and got a first down. He's already more elusive than Dexter ever was.

Yeah, he carved out a little niche as a 3rd down slot possession wr, finding holes in zones.

The same was said about Devon Hester now he's turning and burning in ratlanta

[O.city]

The same was said about Devon Hester now he's turning and burning in ratlanta

And MCcluster is on pace for 400 total yards in Tennessee.

[RealSNR]

When I think about Hemingway, the thing that excites me the most is the thought of replacing him next year.

Along with several others.
Like O.City said, if it's not Junior Hemingway, there will be another JAG waiting in line to do the same JAG shit that Junior Hemingway is doing now.

We might upgrade Bowe. We might upgrade Avery. We might upgrade Jenkins. But I highly doubt that Dorsey and Reid are going to bolster our WR depth so much to the point of getting a better WR4 than Hemingway.

And if they do, it will be after many years of drafting WRs.

[ModSocks]

How much of what dexter did on special teams was him making people miss, or Dave Toub?

Hemingway caught a pass against the Dolphins, made 2 people miss and got a first down. He's already more elusive than Dexter ever was.

Yeah, he carved out a little niche as a 3rd down slot possession wr, finding holes in zones.

That's silly. Just plain silly. One play doesn't make someone more elusive than another. Im sure i can find plays of Dexter making guys miss. The idea that Dexter is a statue is a CP myth perpetuated by the fact that CP loves to bash midgets so much. People need to get over the Dexter/Pioli hate and come to the realization that he wasn't a bad pick when compared to his peers drafted in that same round. He's actually a top 5-8 pick in relation to those taken in that same round.

Also, Dexter was returning Kick off's for TDs long before Toub arrived. Toub most certainly helped, but he proved that he was a good return man prior to Toub's arrival.

Yes, he carved out a niche role. Something Hemingway has yet to do.

There isn't an argument to be had here. McCluster has been far more productive thus far in his career. There simply isn't an angle you can take to prove otherwise.

[Dunerdr]

And MCcluster is on pace for 400 total yards in Tennessee.

He's not even returning punts is he? That's the argument in making. Special teams dex>special teams Hemingway

[AustinChief]

The argument is that he's better than McCluster and there is nothing to support that other than bias.

No doubt in my mind he is better than Dex. The few times he has been on the field this year his blocking has absolutely been fantastic. I have seen multiple plays where if Dex had been in the same position we wouldn't have picked up the extra 3-5 yards we did.

It's not sexy but it is effective.

My problem is, he is rarely put in a position that ISN'T blocking.

Also, where the hell do you get the idea that isn't quick enough to get open? He gets open the majority of the times he is asked to, the rest of the time he is blocking for a run/screen/swing pass. Check his 3 cone time.

The only legitimate argument I have heard knocking him comes from Htis... the coaches aren't using him because he is limited in his knowledge of the offense. I'm just not sure I buy that but I have no proof against it.

[O.city]

Best way to upgrade the back of your roster (guys like Hemingway) is to upgrade the front and push good players down, in my opinion.

However, you need guys like jr to do the things he does.

[AustinChief]

Yes, he carved out a niche role. Something Hemingway has yet to do.


I'm guessing in your world WR blocking has zero value.

[Discuss Thrower]

Who's giving a shit about him?

Everybody seems to be saying, "He's good on special teams, blocking, not bad for a 7th round pick, etc."

Because, on paper, he was as fast as McCluster at the Combine whilst being a bit bigger. It stood to reason that you could use them in the same manner as a split-out receiver on slants and the like, or that he'd have an easier time pulling in the throw Smith made to McCluster against Cleveland.

But that's clearly not been the case given the dearth of receiving options on the team which have made it to the field over him.. Namely Hammond.

[J Diddy]

Jenkins may one day rack up 100 yards receiving in a game.

There's a less than 1% chance that next week against the 49ers is the game in which that happens.

I see a mod change to Susan Nancy Rita in the future.

[O.city]

That's silly. Just plain silly. One play doesn't make someone more elusive than another. Im sure i can find plays of Dexter making guys miss. The idea that Dexter is a statue is a CP myth perpetuated by the fact that CP loves to bash midgets so much. People need to get over the Dexter/Pioli hate and come to the realization that he wasn't a bad pick when compared to his peers drafted in that same round. He's actually a top 5-8 pick in relation to those taken in that same round.

Also, Dexter was returning Kick off's for TDs long before Toub arrived. Toub most certainly helped, but he proved that he was a good return man prior to Toub's arrival.

Yes, he carved out a niche role. Something Hemingway has yet to do.

There isn't an argument to be had here. McCluster has been far more productive thus far in his career. There simply isn't an angle you can take to prove otherwise.

He's such a good return man/player that they're basically done with him in Tennessee already and never even asked him to return punts?

Of course dexter has been more productive, he was force fed balls for 3 plus years trying to prop up a pick. In terms of productivity, Hemingway hasn't had a chance to be as productive

[ModSocks]

No doubt in my mind he is better than Dex. The few times he has been on the field this year his blocking has absolutely been fantastic. I have seen multiple plays where if Dex had been in the same position we wouldn't have picked up the extra 3-5 yards we did.

It's not sexy but it is effective.

My problem is, he is rarely put in a position that ISN'T blocking.

Also, where the hell do you get the idea that isn't quick enough to get open? He gets open the majority of the times he is asked to, the rest of the time he is blocking for a run/screen/swing pass. Check his 3 cone time.

The only legitimate argument I have since knocking him comes from Htis... the coaches aren't using him because he is limited in his knowledge of the offense. I'm just not sure I buy that but I have no proof against it.

"The majority of the time he's asked to"? That's an awfully strong statement, are you sure about that? I have a feeling you have no way of actually knowing that. If that were true, then he'd be our top WR, don't you think?

Where do i get the idea that he's not quick enough? Well he certainly wasn't a blazer coming out of college. His game is his size.

Hemingway is a better blocker because of his size, no question. He's also much better at kick coverage.

Outside of those two things, he hasn't done a damn thing to prove he's better than McCluster.

[O.city]

Because, on paper, he was as fast as McCluster at the Combine whilst being a bit bigger. It stood to reason that you could use them in the same manner as a split-out receiver on slants and the like, or that he'd have an easier time pulling in the throw Smith made to McCluster against Cleveland.

But that's clearly not been the case given the dearth of receiving options on the team which have made it to the field over him.. Namely Hammond.

I have no clue, but what are his snap counts compared to te other wrs?

[ModSocks]

He's such a good return man/player that they're basically done with him in Tennessee already and never even asked him to return punts?

Of course dexter has been more productive, he was force fed balls for 3 plus years trying to prop up a pick. In terms of productivity, Hemingway hasn't had a chance to be as productive

How can you say he hasn't had the chance? He's been out there, he's seen his snaps. With this shitty wr corps, he doesn't exactly have guys in front of him holding him back.

Ever consider that McCluster got his snaps because the coaches felt he deserved them? Or that maybe he EARNED his catches by getting open?

The idea that coaches purposely hold players back on purpose is horrible.

Some people just can't come to grips that McCluster wasn't as bad of a player as you want him to be.

[AustinChief]

But that's clearly not been the case given the dearth of receiving options on the team which have made it to the field over him.. Namely Hammond.

It's hard to compare him to Hammond, different types of guys. Unfortunately for Hemingway, he has two possible spots in this offense and one of them is taken up by Bowe.

The point of this thread is to answer WHY he isn't seeing more reps as a receiving threat when he clearly has good hands.

He is actually getting plenty of snaps. He is 3rd on the team in offensive snaps among receivers.

[O.city]

"The majority of the time he's asked to"? That's an awfully strong statement, are you sure about that? I have a feeling you have no way of actually knowing that. If that were true, then he'd be our top WR, don't you think?

Where do i get the idea that he's not quick enough? Well he certainly wasn't a blazer coming out of college. His game is his size.

Hemingway is a better blocker because of his size, no question. He's also much better at kick coverage.

Outside of those two things, he hasn't done a damn thing to prove he's better than McCluster.

He timed better in damn near every drill than dexter did, iirc

[AustinChief]

How can you say he hasn't had the chance? He's been out there, he's seen his snaps. With this shitty wr corps, he doesn't exactly have guys in front of him holding him back.

Ever consider that McCluster got his snaps because the coaches felt he deserved them? Or that maybe he EARNED his catches by getting open?

The idea that coaches purposely hold players back on purpose is horrible.

Some people just can't come to grips that McCluster wasn't as bad of a player as you want him to be.

I was never a McCluster hater, so watch who you accuse. I am saying that you are completely discounting his value as a blocker on offense. Especially THIS type of offense. Obviously the coaches value it since he sees a ton of snaps.

[ModSocks]

He is actually getting plenty of snaps. He is 3rd on the team in offensive snaps among receivers.

Doesn't that kinda go against your theory that he's not getting his chances?

I guess that's the end of this thread then.

He's a 7th round pick. A good player for a 7th round pick, but he's just another Terrance Copper and nothing more.

[O.city]

How can you say he hasn't had the chance? He's been out there, he's seen his snaps. With this shitty wr corps, he doesn't exactly have guys in front of him holding him back.

Ever consider that McCluster got his snaps because the coaches felt he deserved them? Or that maybe he EARNED his catches by getting open?

The idea that coaches purposely hold players back on purpose is horrible.

Some people just can't come to grips that McCluster wasn't as bad of a player as you want him to be.

Where did I say anything about this coaching staff doing that?

As soon as his contract was up, he was gone. That says alot

[O.city]

Doesn't that kinda go against your theory that he's not getting his chances?

I guess that's the end of this thread then.

He's a 7th round pick. A good player for a 7th round pick, but he's just another Terrance Copper and nothing more.

And we haven't noticed any drop off since Dex left. We're actually better on 3rd downs

[Frosty]

Where do i get the idea that he's not quick enough? Well he certainly wasn't a blazer coming out of college. His game is his size.

Hemingway isn't a blazer but coming out of college, he ran a faster 40 time than McCluster. Faster 20 yard shuttle, too.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/junior-hemingway?id=2532862

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dexter-mccluster?id=497190

[ModSocks]

I was never a McCluster hater, so watch who you accuse. I am saying that you are completely discounting his value as a blocker on offense. Especially THIS type of offense. Obviously the coaches value it since he sees a ton of snaps.

Im not discounting his value as a blocker. Clearly the coaches like him as a blocker. Im sure we can find a lot of receivers who can block. It's not exactly a trait that makes a receiver good.

The question is why isn't he getting more targets?

Maybe he's just not getting open?

Oh McCluster managed to get open? No no no, that's just the Chiefs forcing him the ball.

It's biased nonsense.

[The Franchise]

Better in the slot than Dex was

Bowe needs to run out of the slot.

[ModSocks]

Where did I say anything about this coaching staff doing that?

As soon as his contract was up, he was gone. That says alot

All it says is that his production wasn't worth his demands to this team. That's it.

[ModSocks]

And we haven't noticed any drop off since Dex left. We're actually better on 3rd downs

What does that have to do with Hemingway?

Hemingway is responsible for that?

[AustinChief]

Doesn't that kinda go against your theory that he's not getting his chances?

I guess that's the end of this thread then.

He's a 7th round pick. A good player for a 7th round pick, but he's just another Terrance Copper and nothing more.

Man, you are going a bit retard here. Your concept of what a WR does seems to be pretty limited to Fantasy Football type of thinking.

I'll explain it. (with bullet points!)


He sees plenty of offensive snaps.
He RARELY is put in where he would even be a possible target.
He is often used as a downfield blocker on runs/screens/swing passes.
The few times he is in on a play where he could be a target he has consistently gotten open and out of the 5 times he was thrown a catchable pass he has caught the ball 4. On the 1 drop he was wide open.

[ModSocks]

Where did I say anything about this coaching staff doing that?

As soon as his contract was up, he was gone. That says alot

You claimed that McCluster was being force fed. Isn't that a coaches decision? Or do you just think Smith likes McCluster's hair more than Hemingway's?

[AustinChief]

Im not discounting his value as a blocker. Clearly the coaches like him as a blocker. Im sure we can find a lot of receivers who can block. It's not exactly a trait that makes a receiver good.

The question is why isn't he getting more targets?

Maybe he's just not getting open?


No, he gets open, he simply isn't in on the kind of downs/plays/sets where he is going to be a target.

The coaches thinking seems to be..."Want to run a bubble screen? Swing Pass? Put Hemingway out on that side!" And that is it.

I am not saying Hemingway is all pro or any such nonsense, I am just wondering where the disconnect is. It is NOT because he fails to get open. He is rarely ASKED to get open.

[RealSNR]

I see a mod change to Susan Nancy Rita in the future.

No. If Jenkins pulls off the impossible this week, I will change my name to Susan.

That's it. No bloody Nancy OR Rita.

[ModSocks]

Man, you are going a bit retard here. Your concept of what a WR does seems to be pretty limited to Fantasy Football type of thinking.

I'll explain it. (with bullet points!)


He sees plenty of offensive snaps.
He RARELY is put in where he would even be a possible target.
He is often used as a downfield blocker on runs/screens/swing passes.
The few times he is in on a play where he could be a target he has consistently gotten open and out of the 5 times he was thrown a catchable pass he has caught the ball 4. On the 1 drop he was wide open.


The only one going retard here is you.

A WR's PRIMARY job on a passing play is to get open and catch the ball. Does anyone care about AJ green or Calvin Johnson's blocking? How good of a blocker is Avery? Yet he's still starting over Hemingway. Why is that? You think DeSean Jackson is a good blocker?

How can you claim to know whether or not he's rarely put in a position to be a possible target? Considering the amount of snaps he receives that's HIGHLY suspect. First off, you have no clue who the primary reads are on a given play. Secondly, you're assuming that he's put out there JUST to block for the majority of his snaps.

How exactly are you determining which plays he's an available target on and which he's not. And on those plays, how are you determining how open he is or isn't?

[ModSocks]

No, he gets open, he simply isn't in on the kind of downs/plays/sets where he is going to be a target.



Have you considered that he's not asked to get open (assuming that's true of course, which is sketchy at best) because Hammond and Jenkins and Avery and Kelce and Bowe and Charles and blah blah blah simply do it better?

[O.city]

You claimed that McCluster was being force fed. Isn't that a coaches decision? Or do you just think Smith likes McCluster's hair more than Hemingway's?

By the previous regime coaching staff, he was force fed to justify draft slot.

[ModSocks]

Look at the way the Chiefs spread the ball around. Look at all of the different players that were targeted on Monday night. Reid and Smith spread the ball around, no question about that.

So why is Hemingway not getting as many targets in a system that LOVES to spread the ball around despite the fact that he's frequently on the field?

Maybe...just maybe....he's not as good as you think he is.

[ModSocks]

By the previous regime coaching staff, he was force fed to justify draft slot.

I didn't realize Reid and Dorsey felt an allegiance to Pioli's picks, considering his best year came under those two.

[O.city]

I didn't realize Reid and Dorsey felt an allegiance to Pioli's picks, considering his best year came under those two.

In the flow of th offense, yes he was targeted. None of that get it to him in space blah blah. Or having him at running back.

And after his best year he was let walk and replaced by a fourth round rookie.

Again, he was a decent possession slot wr, picked about 3 rounds too soon

[O.city]

Look at the way the Chiefs spread the ball around. Look at all of the different players that were targeted on Monday night. Reid and Smith spread the ball around, no question about that.

So why is Hemingway not getting as many targets in a system that LOVES to spread the ball around despite the fact that he's frequently on the field?

Maybe...just maybe....he's not as good as you think he is.

We threw it 26 times. Of course the majority of those should go to Bowe/Kelce/etc, they're better.

Me saying I think Hemingway is better than Dex speaks to the fact that I don't think Dexter was very good,more so than anything with Hemingway.

[ModSocks]

In the flow of th offense, yes he was targeted. None of that get it to him in space blah blah. Or having him at running back.

And after his best year he was let walk and replaced by a fourth round rookie.

Again, he was a decent possession slot wr, picked about 3 rounds too soon

Judging by the players taken in that draft, not sure how you can come to that conclusion. He's a top 5-8 player in his ROUND. It was an awful draft. Pure shit. And out of that draft we got a player who produced fore us, which is more than 75% of the league can say about their 2010 2nd round picks.

Your point was that Hemingway is better. There is nothing to support that argument. And devolving it into "He was drafted too high" doesn't change that, but it does show where the source of your bias comes from.

[The Franchise]

Hemingway is what...like 4th or 5th read when he's on the field? That's not going to get you a lot of targets.

Bowe, Charles, Fasano, Avery, Kelce are all higher than him when it comes to reads. And it's not like their running plays where Hemingway is the primary read.

[ModSocks]

We threw it 26 times. Of course the majority of those should go to Bowe/Kelce/etc, they're better.

Me saying I think Hemingway is better than Dex speaks to the fact that I don't think Dexter was very good,more so than anything with Hemingway.

If Dex wasn't very good, then what does that say about Hemingway? No matter which angle you come from, your argument doesn't hold water.

Not only that, but the only difference between last year's offensive players and this years is Kelce.

Despite pretty much having the same players, Dexter still saw more targets last season than Hemingway is seeing. Hell, he saw more targets even with Hemingway ON THE TEAM.

Why? According to you, Hemingway is better than Dexter. The results and the facts simply to work with that line of thinking.

[RealSNR]

Hemingway is what...like 4th or 5th read when he's on the field? That's not going to get you a lot of targets.

Bowe, Charles, Fasano, Avery, Kelce are all higher than him when it comes to reads. And it's not like their running plays where Hemingway is the primary read.
That's what I don't get. There's this surge of people who are excited to replace Hemingway.

Hemingway has a job to do and he does it. He's Hank Basket or James Thrash or whatever shitty WR you want to compare him to that was 3rd/4th on the depth chart in Philly.

The Chiefs WRs don't suck because Hemingway is the 4th option. They suck because of options #1-3.

[ModSocks]

Hemingway is what...like 4th or 5th read when he's on the field? That's not going to get you a lot of targets.

Bowe, Charles, Fasano, Avery, Kelce are all higher than him when it comes to reads. And it's not like their running plays where Hemingway is the primary read.

There are two seperate arguments here, and yes i agree with you. The other targets are higher up on the list hence the reason Hemingway isn't targeted that often.

The question is, why isn't he higher up on the list? Probably because he isn't as A. Reliable or B. Simply as good.

Yet McCluster seemed to get his targets despite having those exact players on the team.

Why?

[ModSocks]

That's what I don't get. There's this surge of people who are excited to replace Hemingway.

Hemingway has a job to do and he does it. He's Hank Basket or James Thrash or whatever shitty WR you want to compare him to that was 3rd/4th on the depth chart in Philly.

The Chiefs WRs don't suck because Hemingway is the 4th option. They suck because of options #1-3.

Right. I agree.

He is.....what he is.

[AustinChief]

Let's look at the first drive of the season.

3 yd Run - No Hemingway
6 yd Run - Hemingway as a potential blocker
14 yard swing pass - Hemingway as a potential blocker
3 yd Pass - Hemingway wide open (not targeted)
4 yd FB run - No Hemingway
Passing play/Smith Sacked - Hemingway WIDE open.

I'm done checking this game because A)it's depressing and B)Bowe was out so that is going to skew things.

I'll check a few more drives from other games and I'll bet you you'll see the same situation.

[Mr. Laz]

No doubt in my mind he is better than Dex. The few times he has been on the field this year his blocking has absolutely been fantastic. I have seen multiple plays where if Dex had been in the same position we wouldn't have picked up the extra 3-5 yards we did.

It's not sexy but it is effective.

My problem is, he is rarely put in a position that ISN'T blocking.

Also, where the hell do you get the idea that isn't quick enough to get open? He gets open the majority of the times he is asked to, the rest of the time he is blocking for a run/screen/swing pass. Check his 3 cone time.

The only legitimate argument I have heard knocking him comes from Htis... the coaches aren't using him because he is limited in his knowledge of the offense. I'm just not sure I buy that but I have no proof against it.

beyond stupid

Hemingway might have the potential to be better than McCluster but until he actually DOES IT then he is just a ST guy who can block.

So you think that Reid just doesn't feel like using Hemingway for no reason? There is a reason and since Hemingway seems to have the physical ability it only make sense that it's the mental aspect of the game.

McCluster wasn't great but at least he actually DID something.

still waiting on Hemingway

[ModSocks]

Let's look at the first drive of the season.

3 yd Run - No Hemingway
6 yd Run - Hemingway as a potential blocker
14 yard swing pass - Hemingway as a potential blocker
3 yd Pass - Hemingway wide open (not targeted)
4 yd FB run - No Hemingway
Passing play/Smith Sacked - Hemingway WIDE open.

I'm done checking this game because A)it's depressing and B)Bowe was out so that is going to skew things.

I'll check a few more drives from other games and I'll bet you you'll see the same situation.

Don't waste your time. You can sub in any player and make the same silly argument. Change the name to Avery and the results will be the same.

And it STILL has nothing to do with why Hemingway isn't being targeted. We already know that he's a good blocking receiver.

[The Franchise]

Let's look at the first drive of the season.

3 yd Run - No Hemingway
6 yd Run - Hemingway as a potential blocker
14 yard swing pass - Hemingway as a potential blocker
3 yd Pass - Hemingway wide open (not targeted)
4 yd FB run - No Hemingway
Passing play/Smith Sacked - Hemingway WIDE open.

I'm done checking this game because A)it's depressing and B)Bowe was out so that is going to skew things.

I'll check a few more drives from other games and I'll bet you you'll see the same situation.

So then this was against the Titans.

Either Smith doesn't have the trust in Hemingway to look his way when he's in trouble or Hemingway isn't anything but the 3rd or 4th read on a play. And if the latter is the case....our offensive line wouldn't let Smith get past his 2nd read before he had to run.

[ModSocks]

So then this was against the Titans.

Either Smith doesn't have the trust in Hemingway to look his way when he's in trouble or Hemingway isn't anything but the 3rd or 4th read on a play. And if the latter is the case....our offensive line wouldn't let Smith get past his 2nd read before he had to run.

Considering he was sacked on the play in which he was open, it likely means that Tenn brought an extra player on 3rd down, which of course means SOMEONE is open and Smith simply didn't have the time to make the play.

[Sandy Vagina]

I've heard of this big drop more than once in the past couple days but don't remember when it occurred.

Can anyone remind me?

4:51 left in the 2nd quarter. Junior was lined up in a 2 pt stance but next to the RT like a TE.. ran a quick drag across and dropped an easy pass on 2nd and 13. The play likely would have gone for only a few yds anyway. Still hate to see it, and his reaction to it was irritating.

Hemingway seems to be JAG. It's fair to wonder if he could ever be more, since he isn't a priority in the offense whatsoever.

I have to think the Chiefs would find ways to use him more, if he was impressing them in weekly practices. As of now, he's just a rarely noticed player on his final contract year.. likely to disappear without a **** given.

[-King-]

He's just not a real good WR but for some reason people love to think he is and just hasn't gotten his shot yet. He's a good blocker, and a good special teams player. That's basically it. He'll make 1 or two catches per game and that's good enough.

[runnercyclist]

Decent special teamer. Meh at WR.

[O.city]

Judging by the players taken in that draft, not sure how you can come to that conclusion. He's a top 5-8 player in his ROUND. It was an awful draft. Pure shit. And out of that draft we got a player who produced fore us, which is more than 75% of the league can say about their 2010 2nd round picks.

Your point was that Hemingway is better. There is nothing to support that argument. And devolving it into "He was drafted too high" doesn't change that, but it does show where the source of your bias comes from.

The 2010 draft was not a shitty draft, but that's a different argument.

Dexter produced 500 yards of reception yards for us. For what he was, sure, that's respectable.

But he wasn't elusive after the catch (something we've witnessed Hemingway be in a small sample size) which is something is think you'd like to see from a slot wr.

I'm sure dexter was/is smarter than Hemingway and was a more reliable set of hands to have on third down.

But again, they let him walk and chose to replace him with a 4th round rookie and a 7th round special teamer. The front office/ staff basically told us with that decision how they felt in regards to Dexter

[AustinChief]

Considering he was sacked on the play in which he was open, it likely means that Tenn brought an extra player on 3rd down, which of course means SOMEONE is open and Smith simply didn't have the time to make the play.

The problem is, what I posted shows that you were wrong about him not getting open. Maybe Smith doesn't trust him. Maybe he is an idiot. Maybe he is open running the wrong route. I have no idea, hence the thread. He is not however, having any issues getting open.

[ModSocks]

The problem is, what I posted shows that you were wrong about him not getting open. Maybe Smith doesn't trust him. Maybe he is an idiot. Maybe he is open running the wrong route. I have no idea, hence the thread. He is not however, having any issues getting open.

Getting open on a given play does not equate to "open the majority of the time he's asked to".

[O.city]

beyond stupid

Hemingway might have the potential to be better than McCluster but until he actually DOES IT then he is just a ST guy who can block.

So you think that Reid just doesn't feel like using Hemingway for no reason? There is a reason and since Hemingway seems to have the physical ability it only make sense that it's the mental aspect of the game.

McCluster wasn't great but at least he actually DID something.

still waiting on Hemingway

I can agree with this.

Physically, there isn't anything Dexter can do on the football field that's superior to Hemingway. Look at their combine #s.

Physically. Mentally, apparently that's a different story.

[ModSocks]

The 2010 draft was not a shitty draft, but that's a different argument.

Dexter produced 500 yards of reception yards for us. For what he was, sure, that's respectable.

But he wasn't elusive after the catch (something we've witnessed Hemingway be in a small sample size) which is something is think you'd like to see from a slot wr.

I'm sure dexter was/is smarter than Hemingway and was a more reliable set of hands to have on third down.

But again, they let him walk and chose to replace him with a 4th round rookie and a 7th round special teamer. The front office/ staff basically told us with that decision how they felt in regards to Dexter

If Hemingway has shown elusivness, then so has Dexter. One play of making a guy miss does not = Elusive.

Dexter has made one guy miss before too. Hemingway made a guy miss. Big deal. Dexter has too and no one calls him elusive.

They let him walk because he was replaceable. No one ever said he wasn't. The contract has to make sense, obviously.

[O.city]

We've got/had wrs open all year. It hasn't become different the past 2 weeks.

[AustinChief]

Getting open on a given play does not equate to "open the majority of the time he's asked to".

You are correct. He was open 100% of the time I have checked so far (all 2 times he was asked to get open). But you told me "not to bother" showing you that it is true for more series in more games. Unless I have severely missed something... this is how it has played out all season so far. I have watched the 2nd and 3rd games twice and the last one 3 times.

Maybe I am just seeing what I already assume is happening.. perception bias... but I highly doubt it.

[O.city]

If Hemingway has shown elusivness, then so has Dexter. One play of making a guy miss does not = Elusive.

Dexter has made one guy miss before too. Hemingway made a guy miss. Big deal. Dexter has too and no one calls him elusive.

They let him walk because he was replaceable. No one ever said he wasn't. The contract has to make sense, obviously.

Dexter didn't though. He got tackled by 1 guy the majority of the time. And for te record, Hemingway broke two tackles to gain a first down on said play.

Dexter is what he is, same as Hemingway.

[ModSocks]

Dexter didn't though. He got tackled by 1 guy the majority of the time. And for te record, Hemingway broke two tackles to gain a first down on said play.

Dexter is what he is, same as Hemingway.

Dexter DID though.

Que up the Jacksonville gif, it carries as much weight as that one time Hemingway made someone miss.

[the Talking Can]

Look at the way the Chiefs spread the ball around. Look at all of the different players that were targeted on Monday night. Reid and Smith spread the ball around, no question about that.

So why is Hemingway not getting as many targets in a system that LOVES to spread the ball around despite the fact that he's frequently on the field?

Maybe...just maybe....he's not as good as you think he is.

this


his upside is a #4 WR...he isn't fast, doesn't get separation...can't get any run on the worst WR roster in the league

there's a 100 of him on the bottom of rosters in the league

[AustinChief]

btw, I still think everyone is ridiculously undervaluing blocking as a major asset for a WR. In the offense we run, it is extremely valuable.

Saying "any WR can block" is as ludicrous as saying any WR can catch.

[AustinChief]

his upside is a #4 WR...he isn't fast, doesn't get separation...

More of this nonsense. NO, you are dead fucking wrong on this. He isn't a BURNER but he is plenty "fast" and quick and gets open. If that wasn't the case, there would be no reason why I am wondering why we seem to only use him in one way. It would make sense, in reality it doesn't.

Go back and actually watch the tape and you will see that he is rarely asked to get open, the times he is... he does.

[AustinChief]

Denver game

Pass Fasano - no Hemingway
Pass Kelce - no Hemingway
Pass Davis - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Pass to Hemingway overthrown.

I have attached the image.

[Hammock Parties]

JAG

[Hammock Parties]

This is just Michigan fanboy homerism at it's finest...WRs like Hemingway are a dime a dozen in the NFL.

[Sandy Vagina]

Denver game

Pass Fasano - no Hemingway
Pass Kelce - no Hemingway
Pass Davis - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Pass to Hemingway overthrown.

I have attached the image.

I have no dislike of Junior, but that pass would have to be perfect, due to lack of separation. Agree?

[AustinChief]

1st half of 2nd qtr...

Run Davis - No Hemingway
Incomplete quick slant to Avery - Hemingway left
Smith scramble - H screened by his own man on drag route then doubled
Gray run - No H
Pass INC. - No H
Davis run - No H
Davis run - H split left
Pass to Davis - H open
Davis run - H motions to right
Davis run - No H

Ok, so as you can see, there isn't much evidence pointing to him not being able to get open.

[Hammock Parties]

I will say with our QB no WR will ever reach their full potential...so there is that hope for Junior.

[AustinChief]

I have no dislike of Junior, but that pass would have to be perfect, due to lack of separation. Agree?

No, it was WAY overthrown. Smith can make that pass and there is plenty of separation. (easier to see in real time)

When you have a full step on your coverage, and there is enough visible space that you could fit a lineman between you and the next guy... that is separation.

(just for reference, the ball is already in the air at that point, so Smith saw him as open)

[Sandy Vagina]

No, it was WAY overthrown. Smith can make that pass and there is plenty of separation. (easier to see in real time)

When you have a full step on your coverage, and there is enough visible space that you could fit a lineman between you and the next guy... that is separation.

(just for reference, the ball is already in the air at that point, so Smith saw him as open)

Fair enough. Difficult to see from the small image. (yes, even clicked)

Still didn't look like much separation, but okay.

[keg in kc]

Offseason injuries have probably held him up more than anything. It's like he can't make it through a week of camp without something happening. And I think that's probably why he's not a bigger part of the picture. You just can't build a rapport with the quarterback in the training room, particularly if you're a guy purported to not be the quickest when it comes to picking up an offense (rumor, not sure if true...). until he finds a way to stay healthy it's likely going to stay that way. He's good on special teams, so he'll always have a spot on a roster somewhere.

[AustinChief]

Offseason injuries have probably held him up more than anything. It's like he can't make it through a week of camp without something happening. And I think that's probably why he's not a bigger part of the picture. You just can't build a rapport with the quarterback in the training room, particularly if you're a guy purported to not be the quickest when it comes to picking up an offense (rumor, not sure if true...). until he finds a way to stay healthy it's likely going to stay that way. He's good on special teams, so he'll always have a spot on a roster somewhere.

That's as good a theory as any I have heard.

I am not here to say he is being wasted or bitching about things. I am am simply trying to understand why his production is what it is.

The play breakdowns are simply to show that the idea that he is somehow not getting open is ludicrous.

[jd1020]

Hemingway, another reason the Chiefs were stupid not to target a WR.

[jd1020]

He's already made more people miss after the catch than dexter did in his tenure, and that's with catching like 1/8th of the balls mccluster did.

Dexter was a good pair of hands and a decent possession wr out of the slot.

Hemingway is already that, plus he adds much more special teams wise.

He just doesn't have the production yet, but he really hasn't had the chance

ROFL

McCluster caught 53 passes last year. Hemmingway is on pace for 16.

Clearly the better slot receiver.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

So, how does everyone feel about Junior so far this year?

I am disappointed with the amount of targets (9) and he has 1 drop (and it was a bad one) but the rest of his stats are decent. 9.8 yds per reception. 24 yards after catch. And all 4 of his catches have been for 1st downs.

The one thing that has been impressive has been his downfield blocking. Of our WRs he is head and shoulders beyond anyone in this category. I'd actually like to see a stat for yardage on runs/screens/swing passes to his side when he is on the field.

So any thoughts on why he isn't seeing the field more? I know Htismaqe will say it's because he has trouble learning the offense(any offense) and this may be true. I agree with this to an extent but I expected him to be able to pick it up by now.

If he didn't go to Michigan you wouldn't care, because he's not an NFL-caliber player. The guy is a poor player in a really bad receiving corps. There are probably 50 players on practice squads or 4th or 5th WRs who have a better skillset than Hemingway.

[AustinChief]

If he didn't go to Michigan you wouldn't care, because he's not an NFL-caliber player. The guy is a poor player in a really bad receiving corps. There are probably 50 players on practice squads or 4th or 5th WRs who have a better skillset than Hemingway.

Hyperbole much?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Hyperbole much?

There are roughly 100 players occupying those roles. If anything, I'm underestimating how bad he his.

This is his third year in the NFL and he has 17 catches. Seventeen. He averages less than ten yards per catch. There is nothing about him that is noteworthy. He's end-of-the-roster ST trash, at best.

[Exoter175]

My thoughts on Junior haven't changed since he was drafted and I told everyone he'd be on this team. In pre-season again, everyone was calling for him being cut, I said it wouldn't happen, it didn't.

He's a physical guy with a big body, total red zone threat type of guy on paper. His 1 drop this year was pretty bad, but he's been shining pretty well throughout the year, especially so on run blocking and special teams, serious emphasis on the special teams. Short of Phillip Gaines playing like a pro bowl cover guy, Junior would be getting some big rants and raves about his cover skills.

He's just not "Overly" talented, he's the type of guy who is going to put up a 40 for 550 statline once he gets a grip of the offense. He'll never be a #1 or a #2, but he's certainly a #3/#4 guy that will perform very well on special teams to keep his roster spot, and its guys like that who have a tendency to make plays when we need them the most.

[chiefzilla1501]

Better in the slot than Dex was
I disagree. Dex was good in the slot for reasons we didn't expect and reasons Tennessee is too dumb to notice. Dex would be doing really well in this new offense. Not because of speed. As a hands or possession receiver. Why Tennessee put him back in the gadget role, who the fuck knows.

I agree with general consensus here. Hemingway is a phenomenal special teamer, very good blocker, and occasional pass catcher. He is basically the new terrence copper.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

He sucks

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

This is just Michigan fanboy homerism at it's finest.

It's pathetic

[Steron]

With Avery out for a while he'll get some more looks?

[BossChief]

I doubt he is even in the NFL next year.

[the Talking Can]

More of this nonsense. NO, you are dead ****ing wrong on this. He isn't a BURNER but he is plenty "fast" and quick and gets open. If that wasn't the case, there would be no reason why I am wondering why we seem to only use him in one way. It would make sense, in reality it doesn't.

Go back and actually watch the tape and you will see that he is rarely asked to get open, the times he is... he does.

ROFL

oh, they don't 'ask' him to get open is the problem...i love that there is conspiracy afoot to suppress the talents of our #5 WR

[htismaqe]

Why are people still talking about Junior? Definition of "nobody".

[Easy 6]

Like O.City said, if it's not Junior Hemingway, there will be another JAG waiting in line to do the same JAG shit that Junior Hemingway is doing now.

We might upgrade Bowe. We might upgrade Avery. We might upgrade Jenkins. But I highly doubt that Dorsey and Reid are going to bolster our WR depth so much to the point of getting a better WR4 than Hemingway.

And if they do, it will be after many years of drafting WRs.

I understand what you're saying here, that there will always be role playing types in any WR corp, but I would prefer those guys have atleast one redeeming quality, preferably decent to good speed. People are saying he's a great blocker or has good hands or runs great routes, but the production vs time on the field scale is tipping the wrong way IMO.

There are roughly 100 players occupying those roles. If anything, I'm underestimating how bad he his.

This is his third year in the NFL and he has 17 catches. Seventeen. He averages less than ten yards per catch. There is nothing about him that is noteworthy. He's end-of-the-roster ST trash, at best.

That.

[thabear04]

My thoughts on Junior haven't changed since he was drafted and I told everyone he'd be on this team. In pre-season again, everyone was calling for him being cut, I said it wouldn't happen, it didn't.

He's a physical guy with a big body, total red zone threat type of guy on paper. His 1 drop this year was pretty bad, but he's been shining pretty well throughout the year, especially so on run blocking and special teams, serious emphasis on the special teams. Short of Phillip Gaines playing like a pro bowl cover guy, Junior would be getting some big rants and raves about his cover skills.

He's just not "Overly" talented, he's the type of guy who is going to put up a 40 for 550 statline once he gets a grip of the offense. He'll never be a #1 or a #2, but he's certainly a #3/#4 guy that will perform very well on special teams to keep his roster spot, and its guys like that who have a tendency to make plays when we need them the most.

So he like Jason Dunn.

[AustinChief]

ROFL

oh, they don't 'ask' him to get open is the problem...i love that there is conspiracy afoot to suppress the talents of our #5 WR

Yopu know, you can actually engage in conversation without being a dick. It's a novel concept but worth trying.

No one is claiming a conspiracy. I am however claiming (and have shown if you bothered reading or watching tape yourself) that the snaps he is in on are overwhelmingly ones where he is not even a potential target. The few times he IS asked to run a route and get open .. he overwhelmingly does. So, anyone claiming he doesn't get open is simply wrong and making shit up. Want to add to the discussion? Why don't you actually look at the plays he is in on and come back with an analysis... instead of simply acting like you know what you are talking about.

[AustinChief]

With Avery out for a while he'll get some more looks?

In theory he shouldn't because that isn't a spot he would ever fill in any circumstance, but who knows. My guess is that Jenkins gets a bunch of those looks. He's much more Avery-esque (even down to the inability to hold on to balls)

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

This is just Michigan fanboy homerism at it's finest...WRs like Hemingway are a dime a dozen in the NFL.

Damn, Claynus.

You gonna take that shit, AC?

Dinny

[the Talking Can]

Yopu know, you can actually engage in conversation without being a dick. It's a novel concept but worth trying.

No one is claiming a conspiracy. I am however claiming (and have shown if you bothered reading or watching tape yourself) that the snaps he is in on are overwhelmingly ones where he is not even a potential target. The few times he IS asked to run a route and get open .. he overwhelmingly does. So, anyone claiming he doesn't get open is simply wrong and making shit up. Want to add to the discussion? Why don't you actually look at the plays he is in on and come back with an analysis... instead of simply acting like you know what you are talking about.

which the correct answer?:

he is what he is

he's awesome but for some reason our team refuses to acknowledge it


i don't have to 'analyze' reality...he's overachieved by even being on an nfl roster this long, and good for him

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

FWIW, AC, I am a Hemingway fan and hope he turns out to be really good for this team. Young low-rounders should take a while to develop. This ain't the FFL.

Dinny

[AustinChief]

which the correct answer?:

he is what he is

he's awesome but for some reason our team refuses to acknowledge it


i don't have to analyze reality...he's overachieved by even being on an nfl roster this long, and good for him

Again, please point out where ANYONE claims he is awesome. I am however disappointed in his production and would like to know why. It's not because he has bad hands or can't get open. Those idiotic arguments have been proven wrong. And to be clear I don't think there is some conspiracy or the coaches are idiots for not using him or any other nonsense.

So, you won't actually do any WORK(looking at tape) but you still think you have something to add to the conversation by being a complete blowhard and stating your opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up but bluster and a douchebag attitude. Congrats, you are now Hamas Jenkins 2.0

[AustinChief]

Why are people still talking about Junior? Definition of "nobody".

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion. Appreciate it.

Dude you know I love you but your attitude the last few years has just plain sucked.

[chiefzilla1501]

So he like Jason Dunn.
Well... Jason Dunn was an excellent blocker at a position where blocking was critical. If you are keeping a receiver on the roster only to block, there's a problem. I would bet Hemingway is still on the team because he's excellent at special teams, a solid blocking receiver on a team that doesn't have good receivers. Agree with everyone here he's probably still on this roster because the options below him aren't much better.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Thanks for adiing nothing to the discussion. Appreciate it.

Dude you know I love you but your attitude the last few years has just plain sucked.

The only person in here who has been bitchy is you.

Hemingway is not a terribly good route runner, he doesn't get separation, and he doesn't have breakaway speed. Moreover, there is no evidence to support that he has great hands.

Again, over three years of being in the NFL, he has 17 receptions. Don't you think that a team who was trotting out Frankie Hammond, Donnie Avery, and AJ Jenkins would be looking for improvements out wide? If he could do it, he'd be doing it.

Also, he's done nothing to warrant being a decoy, and there is no tactical advantage to making him a decoy. That's a claim without any evidence. It's not like he's good enough to draw a double team. When is Hemingway ever drawing double coverage?

He's a WR with a solid build. Every other physical characteristic and skill is either mediocre to below par, aside from his blocking, which is the least important skill a WR can possess.

[the Talking Can]

Again, please point out where ANYONE claims he is awesome. I am however disappointed in his production and would like to know why. It's not because he has bad hands or can't get open. Those idiotic arguments have been proven wrong. And to be clear I don't think there is some conspiracy or the coaches are idiots for not using him or any other nonsense.

So, you won't actually do any WORK(looking at tape) but you still think you have something to add to the conversation by being a complete blowhard and stating your opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up but bluster and a douchebag attitude. Congrats, you are now Hamas Jenkins 2.0


you're right, I'm not 'watching tape' about a scrub WR....

no one anywhere gives a shit about him, he's a nobody with no special talent and no production to boot...he has 100 exact replicas of him on rosters around the league and no one gives a shit about them either

you have an emotional connection to him, for some reason i genuinely don't care about

[AustinChief]

The only person in here who has been bitchy is you.

Hemingway is not a terribly good route runner, he doesn't get separation, and he doesn't have breakaway speed. Moreover, there is no evidence to support that he has great hands.

Again, over three years of being in the NFL, he has 17 receptions. Don't you think that a team who was trotting out Frankie Hammond, Donnie Avery, and AJ Jenkins would be looking for improvements out wide? If he could do it, he'd be doing it.

Also, he's done nothing to warrant being a decoy, and there is no tactical advantage to making him a decoy. That's a claim without any evidence. It's not like he's good enough to draw a double team. When is Hemingway ever drawing double coverage?

He's a WR with a solid build. Every other physical characteristic and skill is either mediocre to below par, aside from his blocking, which is the least important skill a WR can possess.

Ok, nice analysis, except it's based on nothing. I have never claimed he was a decoy. Where the hell do you get that nonsense? And I have only analyzed a few quarters but he drew double coverage one time. No one is claiming he gets double covered consistently or even more than the one time I saw. I was frankly surprised by that.

As to his physical attributes... what do you base your opinion on? It's certainly not from his actual combine numbers.

I don't think he has breakaway speed but he is plenty fast and regardless of your opinion, if you actually WATCHED the tape he gets separation consistently.

I have been "bitchy" because people like you continue to douche up the thread with your typical bluster with no substance. You make ridiculous hyperbolic claims and then act like a tool if anyone asks you to back them. There is ZERO value to that type of "discussion" and you know it. Does it make you feel better about yourself? Seriously, any particular reason being a complete asshole to people is your "thing"?

[AustinChief]

you're right, I'm not 'watching tape' about a scrub WR....

no one anywhere gives a shit about him, he's a nobody with no special talent and no production to boot...he has 100 exact replicas of him on rosters around the league and no one gives a shit about them either

you have an emotional connection to him, for some reason i genuinely don't care about

So, I was right. You're Hamas 2.0

Zero substance to add but a whole ton of attitude and unwarranted ego.

[AustinChief]

Damn, Claynus.

You gonna take that shit, AC?

Dinny

Ha, no one takes anything Clay says seriously. Love the guy but football takes are not his forte.

[-King-]

Can you post gifs or something of those times he was open AC?

Really, do you think it's a coincidence he only has 17 catches in his career? Do you think that Smith just hates him or something and refuses to pass it to him even though he repeatedly gets open supposedly?

[J Diddy]

Ha, no one takes anything Clay says seriously. Love the guy but football takes are not his forte.

Ouch. That's surely going to leave a mark.

[AustinChief]

Can you post gifs or something of those times he was open AC?

Really, do you think it's a coincidence he only has 17 catches in his career? Do you think that Smith just hates him or something and refuses to pass it to him even though he repeatedly gets open supposedly?

I do not think it is coincidence. That is the point of the thread, I have no clue what the problem is and was looking for discussion on the topic.

I doubt Smith "hates" him, if anyone hates him it would be the coaches (I doubt this as well) because he is very rarely asked to actually run routes. The vast majority of his snaps are plays where he is not even a POTENTIAL target. (running plays, screen passes, quick slants, etc).

I posted one gif of him open already. I can post more if you'd like. There aren't many from the plays I have analyzed because, as I said, he is very rarely asked to run a route. Of the plays I looked at all but once he was open when asked to be. The one time was on a drag route where he was screened by the crossing WR from the other side then double covered. That entire play was actually a complete abortion.

[MahiMike]

He's no Allen Hurns.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Ok, nice analysis, except it's based on nothing. I have never claimed he was a decoy. Where the hell do you get that nonsense? And I have only analyzed a few quarters but he drew double coverage one time. No one is claiming he gets double covered consistently or even more than the one time I saw. I was frankly surprised by that.

As to his physical attributes... what do you base your opinion on? It's certainly not from his actual combine numbers.

I don't think he has breakaway speed but he is plenty fast and regardless of your opinion, if you actually WATCHED the tape he gets separation consistently.

I have been "bitchy" because people like you continue to douche up the thread with your typical bluster with no substance. You make ridiculous hyperbolic claims and then act like a tool if anyone asks you to back them. There is ZERO value to that type of "discussion" and you know it. Does it make you feel better about yourself? Seriously, any particular reason being a complete asshole to people is your "thing"?

All I can do is watch the games and look at his measureables to determine his athleticism. Please, key me in on the Rosetta Stone of football analysis so that I might know how to determine a football player isn't anything other than subpar when he doesn't catch passes and averages less than 10 YPC when the occasional nugget is tossed his way.

If you are split wide, you are generally asked to do three things:

1) Get open and catch the ball
2) Act as a decoy to draw coverage away from the intended target
3) Block for a running play

We know that he never does 1), and if, as you said, he never does 2), what the hell is his value to a football team?

Is there some kind of concerted effort not to throw him the ball? Does Smith prefer to throw to Avery, who has no hands, or Bowe, who gets little-to-no separation, out of spite?

Furthermore, please show me where the WCO makes heavy use of a WR who runs short routes and "gets open" but never gets the ball. If he is in fact doing that, and you've done nothing to prove that, what is the functional utility?

I haven't seen anything that warrants your praise of him, aside from the fact that he once wore a helmet of a team you rooted for.

Again, where is the ridiculous hyperbole? Name all of the #4 and #5 receivers that you feel aren't better than Hemingway and offer actual support for them.

[AustinChief]

All I can do is watch the games and look at his measureables to determine his athleticism. Please, key me in on the Rosetta Stone of football analysis so that I might know how to determine a football player isn't anything other than subpar when he doesn't catch passes and averages less than 10 YPC when the occasional nugget is tossed his way.

If you are split wide, you are generally asked to do three things:

1) Get open and catch the ball
2) Act as a decoy to draw coverage away from the intended target
3) Block for a running play

We know that he never does 1), and if, as you said, he never does 2), what the hell is his value to a football team?


He rarely(not never) is asked to do #1 based on the snaps I have looked at. I can't read minds so I don't make any claims one way or another in regards to #2. #3 is where he sees most of his snaps. Well, not really but if you expand #3 to include screens, swing passes, quick slants, etc then #3 is where he sees most of his snaps. On the few snaps that are category #1, (from the tape I have looked at : 1st qtr of Tenn and 1st half of Denver) he has gotten open whenever asked to.


Is there some kind of concerted effort not to throw him the ball? Does Smith prefer to throw to Avery, who has no hands, or Bowe, who gets little-to-no separation, out of spite?

Furthermore, please show me where the WCO makes heavy use of a WR who runs short routes and "gets open" but never gets the ball. If he is in fact doing that, and you've done nothing to prove that, what is the functional utility?

I haven't seen anything that warrants your praise of him, aside from the fact that he once wore a helmet of a team you rooted for.



Again, you attempt to misrepresent what I am saying. If you actually watched the tap you'd see that he is rarely asked to run routes. Period. No one is claiming a conspiracy to not throw to him. He gets thrown to (as much as anyone does) on the few occasions he gets to run a route and get open.

Please show where I am praising him? I am stating facts about him and trying to understand what the hell is wrong with him that causes the coaches to use him in this manner.


Again, where is the ridiculous hyperbole? Name all of the #4 and #5 receivers that you feel aren't better than Hemingway and offer actual support for them.

You're scaling back your statement to a much more reasonable one. The ridiculous hyperbole was that there were tons of practice squad guys who would replace him. If so, you may want to let Dorsey know!

[Easy 6]

Austin, dont ban me... but I'm not sure that theres anything anyone can say that isnt going to piss you off about this.

Reid is a guy who has gotten decent production from the likes of Baskett, Pinkston, Thrash etc, if Hemingway had anything more to offer than what he's shown, doesnt it stand to reason that Andy would find a way to pull it out of him?

As of right now, Andy hasnt watched tape and said to himself "wait a minute, I've been remiss here, look at this kid go"... if he has seen anything that makes him want to get Junior more involved, he'd have definitely involved him by now, 4 games in.

[AustinChief]

Austin, dont ban me... but I'm not sure that theres anything anyone can say that isnt going to piss you off about this.

Reid is a guy who has gotten decent production from the likes of Baskett, Pinkston, Thrash etc, if Hemingway had anything more to offer than what he's shown, doesnt it stand to reason that Andy would find a way to pull it out of him?

As of right now, Andy hasnt watched tape and said to himself "wait a minute, I've been remiss here, look at this kid go"... if he has seen anything that makes him want to get Junior more involved, he'd have definitely involved him by now, 4 games in.

I am not claiming he has more to offer. I am trying to understand WHY he doesn't have more to offer. That's the point of this thread. So far no one has said anything that jumps out there as an obvious explanation. Things like "he never gets open" or "he is too slow" don't follow the FACTS, so there must be another reason. I am just looking for an answer to that question.

My biggest complaint about this thread is related to the useless comments like "well he just sux0rz!!!!!" or "he's trash." Fine, anyone has the right to FEEL that way but I am looking for something useful being added to the discussion. For those that say they don't care... that seems like a strange attitude when he is an active player on our team and is seeing so many snaps.

[Easy 6]

I am not claiming he has more to offer. I am trying to understand WHY he doesn't have more to offer.

This statement encapsulates my confusion with this argument in a nutshell.

WHY doesnt he have more to offer?... well, I guess many of us are simply seeing different things from him when we watch the games. All of these attributes being given to him by yourself and others arent being seen by others among us.

I'm not going to proclaim "my" side 100% right, either.

My argument, is that a head coach well known for rolling with somewhat lesser talent outside at times - and getting them to play above their heads - isnt doing much to push Junior into the spotlight... and that says a lot to myself and others.

He isnt getting more looks, because he cant handle more looks... IMO.

[AustinChief]

well, I guess many of us are simply seeing different things from him when we watch the games. All of these attributes being given to him by yourself and others arent being seen by others among us.


The problem i have here is that no one is willing to actually go back and look at the tape to see if they really are seeing anything different from me. Instead people just roll with how they "feel" they have seen him play. Which I why I broke down a number of series' and showed what was going on. Yet, people act as if that is all make believe... fine, I am willing to be wrong but at least have the decency to actually LOOK at the damn tape before making that assertion.

[ModSocks]

I am not claiming he has more to offer. I am trying to understand WHY he doesn't have more to offer. That's the point of this thread. So far no one has said anything that jumps out there as an obvious explanation. Things like "he never gets open" or "he is too slow" don't follow the FACTS, so there must be another reason. I am just looking for an answer to that question.

My biggest complaint about this thread is related to the useless comments like "well he just sux0rz!!!!!" or "he's trash." Fine, anyone has the right to FEEL that way but I am looking for something useful being added to the discussion. For those that say they don't care... that seems like a strange attitude when he is an active player on our team and is seeing so many snaps.

You're looking for an answer that no one has. You claim that he has an easy time getting open when that's clearly not the case. Also keep in mind that getting open as a 5th receiving option isn't the same as getting open when you're "the man". Defenses simply don't pay attention to Hemingway, and why should they?

Your question doesn't have an answer beyond "he simply isn't as good as you think he is".

Why isn't Vernon Gholston sacking QB's?

Because he just isn't that good. Judging by his measureables, he should be though, right?

Hell, why isn't Frankie Hammond getting more love? He's faster than Hemingway is.

What about Mark Harrison? 6-3 230lbs and runs a 4.4 forty. Why isn't he on the field making plays? He has good hands...good speed and certainly the frame for it.

Point is, you see guys like Hemingway every year and they do nothing.

He simply isn't that good. Why isn't he that good? Who freaking knows.

[AustinChief]

You're looking for an answer that no one has. You claim that he has an easy time getting open when that's clearly not the case.

The tape doesn't back you up on this. Please provide some proof like I already have. If you are saying, he isn't put in on many passing plays because he wouldn't get open on those plays... I can't argue that since it is pure conjecture. It's certainly possible.

[ModSocks]

The tape doesn't back you up on this. Please provide some proof like I already have. If you are saying, he isn't put in on many passing plays because he wouldn't get open on those plays... I can't argue that since it is pure conjecture. It's certainly possible.

A few plays here and there doesn't equate to regularly open. It's pretty simply. If he had such an easy time getting open, he would see the ball more.

And also, what tape? Telecast footage? Because we can't really see much from that.

[ModSocks]

Denver game

Pass Fasano - no Hemingway
Pass Kelce - no Hemingway
Pass Davis - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Incomplete Pass - no Hemingway
Pass to Hemingway overthrown.

I have attached the image.

What exactly is this telling us about Hemingway other than he couldn't get seperation on this play?

[Easy 6]

The problem i have here is that no one is willing to actually go back and look at the tape to see if they really are seeing anything different from me. Instead people just roll with how they "feel" they have seen him play. Which I why I broke down a number of series' and showed what was going on. Yet, people act as if that is all make believe... fine, I am willing to be wrong but at least have the decency to actually LOOK at the damn tape before making that assertion.

I'm trying to be as objective as I can, just saying that if he was showing the ability to do more, Reid would have him doing it.

Good blocker, good hands, good routes... if he was all of that, its my opinion that Jenkins wouldnt be getting the start over him sunday.

[jd1020]

Wasn't it Hemingway that was too ****ing slow to throw a block on Bowe's long catch and run in the playoff game that would have been an easy TD? Then the Chiefs failed to score from the 2 and ended up kicking a FG.

Ya... **** him.

[the Talking Can]

this is borderline brian shay-ish

[Don Corlemahomes]

I predict many planeteers turning on their ad blockers in protest.

[AustinChief]

I'm trying to be as objective as I can, just saying that if he was showing the ability to do more, Reid would have him doing it.

Good blocker, good hands, good routes... if he was all of that, its my opinion that Jenkins wouldnt be getting the start over him sunday.

No chance, they are totally different types. Jenkins is in the Avery mold. Hemingway isn't changing spots.... I have just been wondering why he doesn't see more targets. Not a TON more just more. I don't think he is anything more than a solid #3 wr but right now he's an underutilized #3.

Well, he WAS underutilized until the opening drive of the SF game. I'll have to check the coaches film but I saw at least 3 plays where he was asked to be a passing option and of course he was targeted twice and caught both.

This is how I see him being effective. Nothing more, nothing less.

[AustinChief]

A few plays here and there doesn't equate to regularly open. It's pretty simply. If he had such an easy time getting open, he would see the ball more.

And also, what tape? Telecast footage? Because we can't really see much from that.

I go off NFL Rewind, coaches film. It's not perfect but good enough.

[Easy 6]

No chance, they are totally different types. Jenkins is in the Avery mold. Hemingway isn't changing spots.... I have just been wondering why he doesn't see more targets. Not a TON more just more. I don't think he is anything more than a solid #3 wr but right now he's an underutilized #3.

Well, he WAS underutilized until the opening drive of the SF game. I'll have to check the coaches film but I saw at least 3 plays where he was asked to be a passing option and of course he was targeted twice and caught both.

This is how I see him being effective. Nothing more, nothing less.

Its almost like Reid named Jenkins the starter to throw the niners off, Hemingway is getting a lot more looks than AJ right now.

That endaround or WHATEVER the hell it was to AJ looked awful.

[AustinChief]

Its almost like Reid named Jenkins the starter to throw the niners off, Hemingway is getting a lot more looks than AJ right now.

That endaround or WHATEVER the hell it was to AJ looked awful.

No joke. As cdcox said in the gamethread... they need to BURN that play.

EDIT: and yes Hemingway is getting more looks but not from what normally would be Avery/Jenkins spot.

maybe Smith and the coaches simply trust Avery more (perplexing!) but obviously trust Hemingway more than Jenkins and the playcalling is shifted to reflect that.

[Easy 6]

No joke. As cdcox said in the gamethread... they need to BURN that play.

EDIT: and yes Hemingway is getting more looks but not from what normally would be Avery/Jenkins spot.

maybe Smith and the coaches simply trust Avery more (perplexing!) but obviously trust Hemingway more than Jenkins and the playcalling is shifted to reflect that.

Theres your boy again, wow.

[AustinChief]

Just to be clear, Hemingway's production so far in this game exceeds what I expected his average to be per game this year. I expected 3-4 catches for 40 yards. I'd be ecstatic with him as a #3 with that type of production.

Hopefully this game can earn him some trust and that'll be what he can do in the future.

[Molitoth]

It's all about chemistry wih the qb. Hopefully hemmingway is earning Alex trust.

[AustinChief]

It's all about chemistry wih the qb. Hopefully hemmingway is earning Alex trust.

My other theory is that his passes all seem to come on what are normally "scripted" plays. (first drive then he disappears) I am wondering if that is a big part of it.

[AustinChief]

My other theory is that his passes all seem to come on what are normally "scripted" plays. (first drive then he disappears) I am wondering if that is a big part of it.

Addendum to my theory: Does Pederson handle our scripted drives? If so, Reid seems to have forgotten Hemmingway can do anything other than block. Or Hemingway is somehow mentally deficient and can only handle scripted plays (which makes no sense to me, so someone will have to explain to me how the fuck that works)

[RealSNR]

If Jenkins cracks 100 yards against the 49ers, I'll ask a mod to change my name to Susan for 2 weeks.

What a gutsy bet on my part!

Let's do another one!

I'll cut my dick off and eat it for breakfast if I wake up tomorrow morning and Andy Reid isn't a fat sack of shit

[Exoter175]

What a gutsy bet on my part!

Let's do another one!

I'll cut my dick off and eat it for breakfast if I wake up tomorrow morning and Andy Reid isn't a fat sack of shit

Well, if your name is already Susan.......

[ChiefsFanatic]

What a gutsy bet on my part!

Let's do another one!

I'll cut my dick off and eat it for breakfast if I wake up tomorrow morning and Andy Reid isn't a fat sack of shit
How do you give rep in Tapatalk? That shit was funny.

[ThaVirus]

What a gutsy bet on my part!



Let's do another one!



I'll cut my dick off and eat it for breakfast if I wake up tomorrow morning and Andy Reid isn't a fat sack of shit


Risky.

[RealSNR]

What a gutsy bet on my part!



Let's do another one!



I'll cut my dick off and eat it for breakfast if I wake up tomorrow morning and Andy Reid isn't a fat sack of shit


Checked awhile ago. Andy is still a fat sack of shit!

Whew! I've got balls of motherfucking steel!

[Mr. Laz]

How do you feel about Hemingway?

[AustinChief]

How do you feel about Hemingway?

No excuse for that drop, but it's funny watching the overreactions. Last game everyone thought he was a savior for one good half. Now he is the worst WR ever! EVAH!!!!1!1!!!

Fact is. Our entire team can't catch for shit, up until now Hemingway was one of our better guys at avoiding bone head drops. Now he sucks like the rest.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Last game everyone thought he was a savior for one good half.

No

[ChiefsChoke010414]

No excuse for that drop, but it's funny watching the overreactions. Last game everyone thought he was a savior for one good half. Now he is the worst WR ever! EVAH!!!!1!1!!!

Fact is. Our entire team can't catch for shit, up until now Hemingway was one of our better guys at avoiding bone head drops. Now he sucks like the rest.

Definitely overreactions. He's no better or worse than our other receivers, minus Bowe, who's the cream of the crap.

And Bowe just gets the drop. That's where Hemingway gets it from.

[Mr. Laz]

No excuse for that drop, but it's funny watching the overreactions. Last game everyone thought he was a savior for one good half. Now he is the worst WR ever! EVAH!!!!1!1!!!

Fact is. Our entire team can't catch for shit, up until now Hemingway was one of our better guys at avoiding bone head drops. Now he sucks like the rest.

:D

[wazu]

No excuse for that drop, but it's funny watching the overreactions. Last game everyone thought he was a savior for one good half. Now he is the worst WR ever! EVAH!!!!1!1!!!

Fact is. Our entire team can't catch for shit, up until now Hemingway was one of our better guys at avoiding bone head drops. Now he sucks like the rest.

I just think he's another mediocre receiver that will one day be long forgotten.

[Deberg_1990]

I just think he's another mediocre receiver that will one day be long forgotten.

Danan Hughes

[wazu]

Danan Hughes

I'll actually be happy if he ends up being as good as Danan Hughes.

[BigMeatballDave]

How do you feel about Hemingway?

I want Burfict to tackle him.

[AustinChief]

To be clear, of all things a WR can screw up on, drops is the one thing I have no tolerance for. His (previous) ability to avoid drops was what made his lack of targets so frustrating. Now, I could care less if he sees the field, but keep in perspective that all of our WRs are guilty of this. We desperately need a true #1 WR.

[the Talking Can]

about what you'd expect from career #5 WRs

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Drops are going to happen. Drop rate is important, but you should look at it like fielding %.

You'd rather have a SS that can get to an extra 25 balls a year but commits eight more errors than a sure handed statue.

Similarly, a WR who gets open all the time but drops a fairly high amount of passes is still more valuable than a WR who catches everything thrown to him, but can't get open.