Math question

[tooge]

Ok, so my 10 year old daughter comes home last night and asks me to help her with her "base 10 blocks" for proofing long division. Huh? so, anyhow, I look it up on line and after being utterly confused, I find a few youtube videos about it, and now I get it. What I don't get, is why these little hieroglyphic looking pictures are used to "proof" something that is super simple. My daughter has no trouble with the long division at all, it's only the "simplified" drawings that are confusing to her. Did any of you use this to learn division?

[J Diddy]

Nope. I just learned it. I remember telling my son's teacher that I didn't get it and wasn't even remotely going to try and learn it.

[Katipan]

Learned it in Iowa, and it makes math sad.
We homeschool in Colorado so we ditched it.

[Kman34]

Calculator.....Done

[NewChief]

This may or may not apply to Base 10 Blocks, but this article explains a lot of the issues people have with the CC math.

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/20/5625086/the-common-core-makes-simple-math-more-complicated-heres-why

I'm not going to paste it all in because there are a bunch of embedded images and infographs that are necessary to really understand it.

Here's the gist, though:

This math is frustrating to parents and to some students — with good reason. Elementary school math has become more complicated since the introduction of the Common Core state standards, which require that elementary school kids not just know how to subtract, multiply and divide, but understand what they're doing and why.

Common Core still requires students to learn and understand the standard algorithm, the techniques for adding, multiplying, and dividing that generations of schoolkids have learned. (Erickson says the standard algorithm is derogatorily called the "granny method," but if so, that term is not widely used in math education or textbooks.) But it also requires them to understand other methods, and those methods can make easy math look more difficult.

How Common Core math is different

Arithmetic has usually been taught like it's a recipe: Take the raw ingredients (the numbers), follow a series of steps, and end up with a result (the answer). While an experienced baker knows why you cream butter and sugar before adding eggs, then add flour last, a beginner just following the steps is in the dark. They might know what to do, but they can't explain why.

In the past, "students had this sense that math was some kind of magical black box," says Dan Meyer, a former high school math teacher studying math education at Stanford University. "That wasn't good enough."

One goal of the Common Core math standards is to make American students better at applying math in real life — a skill that's crucial for science and technology jobs, but one at which American students are particularly weak compared with peers around the world.

The theory is that if students understand why they do math the way they do, they'll be able to apply their skills more flexibly.

[Katipan]

Are other countries practicing this method?

[NewChief]

Are other countries practicing this method?

Yes. Other countries who kick our asses in mathematics. One popular math curriculum is actually called "Singapore Math."

The entire article really is worth a read.

[Katipan]

Yes. Other countries who kick our asses in mathematics. One popular math curriculum is actually called "Singapore Math."

The entire article really is worth a read.

Sigh, always with the homework.
KIDDING.
On my way.

[Amnorix]

Bottom line is we SUCK at math. No, seriously, Americans across the board are getting thier asses absolutely handed to them in the math and sciences by, especially, certain Asian countries (India and Japan, to name two). Have been for many, many years. We import a huge number of foreigners to help support our scientific efforts here in the US, or export the work to those countries.

We need to get better, and there are a number of different ways we're doing that. To us old folks, some of it makes no sense (I'm in that category), but they're trying to teach it in different ways so kids can do better at it, especially in the long run.

[Amnorix]

Interesting sidenote -- we suck at math, but we're much, much more entrepreneurial than most of those same countries that kick our ass at math. They are working on trying to encourage more of an entrepreneurial spirit among their students. It's a "technical proficiency" versus "creating thinking" thing, apparently. We're better at creativity, and they're better at technical stuff.

But that means they usually end up working for us. What we want to do is improve our technical proficiency without killing the entrepreneurial capability.

[BucEyedPea]

This may or may not apply to Base 10 Blocks, but this article explains a lot of the issues people have with the CC math.

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/20/5625086/the-common-core-makes-simple-math-more-complicated-heres-why

I'm not going to paste it all in because there are a bunch of embedded images and infographs that are necessary to really understand it.

Here's the gist, though:

I can see that point, only for understanding the underlying concepts—not for real world use. So I like what the "Frustrated Parent" with a BS degree in Electronic Engineering wrote: " In the real world, simplification is valued over complication."

[cdcox]

I was told there would be a math problem to solve...

I am disappoint.

[BucEyedPea]

Interesting sidenote -- we suck at math, but we're much, much more entrepreneurial than most of those same countries that kick our ass at math. They are working on trying to encourage more of an entrepreneurial spirit among their students. It's a "technical proficiency" versus "creating thinking" thing, apparently. We're better at creativity, and they're better at technical stuff.

But that means they usually end up working for us. What we want to do is improve our technical proficiency without killing the entrepreneurial capability.

No need to bother trying to make everyone good at both. That's why we have individuals. Everyone has more ability in certain areas and it starts with what an individual's interests are. That's okay. Nothing wrong with it at all. Allow the individual to go where they want and provide the tools for them. Not everyone has to be good a higher level math. That's why we exchange and trade with one another because someone else is better at doing something that we can't do.

[Katipan]

I'm all for us getting better at math but some of this seems like it's trying to be complicated for the sake of poetry.

Johnny uses a timeline to demonstrate visually that subtraction is a distance between 2 numbers. Fine. You teach the concept. The timeline is a visual representation of a concept. But to then teach that that is the way that they should always determine the distance between 2 numbers is just silly.

I don't think we do any of us any good dumbing stuff down even further.

[NewChief]

I can see that point, only for understanding the underlying concepts—not for real world use. So I like what the "Frustrated Parent" with a BS degree in Electronic Engineering wrote: " In the real world, simplification is valued over complication."

That article does a really nice job of showing how we actually, in the real world, do a lot of these tricks anyway. We break complex math problems down into a series of simpler math problems (think of how we figure 15% tips in our heads).

[Katipan]

I can see that point, only for understanding the underlying concepts—not for real world use. So I like what the "Frustrated Parent" with a BS degree in Electronic Engineering wrote: " In the real world, simplification is valued over complication."

HEY! What she said!

[J Diddy]

Interesting sidenote -- we suck at math, but we're much, much more entrepreneurial than most of those same countries that kick our ass at math. They are working on trying to encourage more of an entrepreneurial spirit among their students. It's a "technical proficiency" versus "creating thinking" thing, apparently. We're better at creativity, and they're better at technical stuff.

But that means they usually end up working for us. What we want to do is improve our technical proficiency without killing the entrepreneurial capability.

Yes. Everyone has their place. We (as a society, certainly not me) make the money and they count it for us.

[tooge]

Well, whether or not we suck at math in the US, I was always pretty damned good at it, and this base ten block drawing concept is idiotic. It seems like it's teaching down to the lowest common denominator

[Frosty]

That article does a really nice job of showing how we actually, in the real world, do a lot of these tricks anyway. We break complex math problems down into a series of simpler math problems (think of how we figure 15% tips in our heads).

I was just going to post the same comment. I was surprised to find that I used some of the same techniques all the time when doing math in my head.

However, in this example

Cell phones with built-in calculators have made it easy to get the tip ($3.70). But many adults still do it in their heads: Move the decimal point over. OK, that's 10 percent, or $1.85. Now you need to double it. But multiplying a three-digit decimal still isn't easy. So you think about it this way: $1.85 can be broken down into $1.50 plus 35 cents. $1.50 times 2 is $3, and 35 cents times 2 is 70 cents. Tip $3.70.

I probably would have done "10% of 18.50 is $1.85, or almost $2. 2 x $2 is $4, then subtract out the difference (2 x $.15) for $3.70." Pretty much the same idea.

[BucEyedPea]

That article does a really nice job of showing how we actually, in the real world, do a lot of these tricks anyway. We break complex math problems down into a series of simpler math problems (think of how we figure 15% tips in our heads).
I know what you mean. I do that myself. But that's simple mental math. A tip is simple enough. I would think some problems are too complex for that approach like in engineering. Are engineers going to figure all their math out in their heads, especially like that? Like I said, it's fine for some things.

[WhawhaWhat]

Well, whether or not we suck at math in the US, I was always pretty damned good at it, and this base ten block drawing concept is idiotic. It seems like it's teaching down to the lowest common denominator

Plot twist: You are the lowest common denominator and they are teaching up.

[Frosty]

I know what you mean. I do that myself. But that's simple mental math. A tip is simple enough. I would think some problems are too complex for that approach like in engineering. Are engineers going to figure all their math out in their heads, especially like that? Like I said, it's fine for some things.

I would be more upset about this if they weren't teaching the standard algorithms along with the CC stuff. It is simply to teach the concepts behind the standard way. I think that is pretty important.

[cosmo20002]

No need to bother trying to make everyone good at both. That's why we have individuals. Everyone has more ability in certain areas and it starts with what an individual's interests are. That's okay. Nothing wrong with it at all. Allow the individual to go where they want and provide the tools for them. Not everyone has to be good a higher level math. That's why we exchange and trade with one another because someone else is better at doing something that we can't do.

I think we should ask the kids whether they want to learn math at all. I mean, if they are not interested, they are individuals who can make a choice.

[BucEyedPea]

I would be more upset about this if they weren't teaching the standard algorithms along with the CC stuff. It is simply to teach the concepts behind the standard way. I think that is pretty important.

Well, that's what I posted. Did you read the thread? But I have to wonder if that is the intent.

[BucEyedPea]

I think we should ask the kids whether they want to learn math at all. I mean, if they are not interested, they are individuals who can make a choice.

I didn't say that either. Please read...I said higher level math. You might go back to an earlier grade yourself to learn reading comprehension or phonics, cosmos.
Or logic, since you posted a strawman argument.

[Dave Lane]

This new learning amazes me Sir Bedivere, explain again to me how rams bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes?

[Dave Lane]

Plot twist: You are the lowest common denominator and they are teaching up.

No shit and the very lowest.

[Katipan]

I didn't say that either. Please read...I said higher level math. You might go back to an earlier grade yourself to learn reading comprehension or phonics, cosmos.
Or logic, since you posted a strawman argument.

I like cosmo, and he knows I like you. :p But do you ever feel like he's running around snapping your bra strap?

[morphius]

I think the goal, as I understand it, is interesting. Teach things multiple ways in hopes that something clicks for each of the students. It makes more sense than the old style of one size fits all. I don't know that the execution is there yet, and I know my 8 year olds assignments confuse the piss out of me, but I don't know that it makes it all bad either.

[KC native]

My kid is gifted at math and gets frustrated by the CC stuff (because he wants to rush through it and not show his work), but it's been a good teaching tool for showing him how to step through problems.

He doesn't need to step through them yet (because he gets the concepts), but the way the work makes him go through the steps and disassemble a problem has made him much better at solving other problems that he comes across (like in video games that he plays).

My kid is a 3rd grader.

[KC native]

Plot twist: You are the lowest common denominator and they are teaching up.

Be careful. Tooge will try to take your back and engage in a rear naked choke now.

[BucEyedPea]

According to this guy Common Core math is not up to international standards. Wonder what else is missing?

Dr. James Milgram (Stanford University emeritus professor who served on the official Common Core validation committee) reported:


I can tell you that my main objection to Core Standards, and the reason I didn’t sign off on them was that they did not match up to international expectations. They were at least 2 years behind the practices in the high achieving countries by 7th grade,and, as a number of people have observed, only require partial understanding of what would be the content of a normal, solid, coursein Algebra I or Geometry. Moreover, they cover very little of the content of Algebra II, and none of any higher level course… They will not help our children match up to the students in the top foreign countries when it comes to being hired to top level jobs

http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2014/06/whats-so-bad-about-common-core/

I never trust top down nationalization on education. It's a cookie-cutter approach. But there's a lot of other good information in that link on other things coming with Common Core. Look at the English, less literature but more reading of govt documents? Wtf? This doesn't make thinkers.

[Katipan]

One of the first tricks we were taught in grade school was how to multiply 9s. Then I remember "is over of" to figure out percentages. Simplifying stuff came with fractions.

They've always taught tricks without making it the core curriculum. Wish I knew how much of our failure at math was because of how we were taught or because we're flighty teenagers as a country.

[BucEyedPea]

I think people can figure out some of those tricks they resort to in everyday use for math. I know I figured them on my own.

[BucEyedPea]

Interesting article:
Start-Up Teaches Math to Americans, Indian-Style
Start-Up Teaches Math to Americans, Indian-Style
By Claire Cain Miller
November 3, 2008 6:09 pmNovember 3, 2008 6:09 pm
Indian Math OnlineScreen shot of Indian Math Online.

The New York Times recently reported on a study that found, once again, that the United States is failing to develop the math skills of its students, particularly girls, especially compared to other countries where math education is more highly valued.

Indian Math Online is a start-up that aims to take on that disparity by teaching math to American kids using techniques from Indian schools.

Bob Compton, an Indianapolis-based venture capitalist and entrepreneur who co-founded Indian Math Online, hatched the idea when he was producing “Two Million Minutes”, a documentary comparing high school education in India, China and the United States....

By testing specific subject areas, Indian Math Online picks up weaknesses that a typical school test would miss, Mr. Compton said....

Mr. Compton said that children of Indian and Chinese parents use the site consistently, but American children often lose interest after a couple months. He compares math to athletics — youths must practice a bit every day to master it. “For some reason, American kids seem to be willing to put in the work with athletics, but not put it in with the one subject that’s going to matter more to their lives than any other activity.” [ Interesting, as are the comments by foreigners at the bottom.]

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/03/indian-math-tutors-math-deficient-americans/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0