Berry or Hali...who is more valuable?

[BlackOp]

It was pretty much the consensus that drafting Ford spelled the exit for Hali next off-season...being that KC's defense is playing better this season with Berry on the bench, who is more valuable? I'm wondering if DJ hadn't been injured..if Berry's absence would even be noticed.

Hali is hands down my favorite Chief...his life history is pretty amazing. He is the veteran leader of the defense...KC would miss him in the locker room.

[Chief_For_Life58]

91

[milkman]

This defense is playing better because Bob Sutton understands the strengths and weaknesses of the players better than last season, and is putting them in better positions to succeed.

[BlackOp]

This defense is playing better because Bob Sutton understands the strengths and weaknesses of the players better than last season, and is putting them in better positions to succeed.

I agree...and Hali is more important to Sutton's scheme than an over-priced safety.

KC should trade Berry, IMO...he's just too expensive for what he brings to the field.

[Cheater5]

Hali is hands down my favorite Chief...his life history is pretty amazing. He is the veteran leader of the defense...KC would miss him in the locker room.

I, too appreciate Hali and think he's been a terrific and relentless player for us. But...

Is he a 'leader'? Not bashing him in any way, but my read on Tamba is that he's more of a self motivated player who is somewhat introverted. Admittedly you don't need to be a rah-rah, boisterous, vocal dude to be a leader- Example is a language everyone speaks.

But I don't see him directing team mates on the field or grabbing guys on the sidelines to collaborate. Who is our leader on Defense?

[milkman]

I agree...and Hali is more important to Sutton's scheme than an over-priced safety.

KC should trade Berry, IMO...he's just too expensive for what he brings to the field.

Pass rushers are always more important than safeties in any scheme.

But we should see how Sutton utilizes Berry's versatility with the adjustments he made from last year before we decide to just move on from him.

Berry, used properly, is a dynamic play maker that we don't have anywhere else on this defense.

[Chief_For_Life58]

Dontari poe loves eating blitz boxes

[Sandy Vagina]

I agree...and Hali is more important to Sutton's scheme than an over-priced safety.

KC should trade Berry, IMO...he's just too expensive for what he brings to the field.

This.

Not sure how I'd elect to handle Berry yet. His final contract year drops from 11.6 mil to 8.3 mil... Might just play him out on that deal, and then see what's what. If he really does look like a brokedick throughout this season and the offseason? Yeah, **** paying him even 8 mil in 2015.

[FloridaMan88]

When Hali was injured last season the Chiefs defense struggled (with a healthy Berry in the line-up).

When Berry has been out this season, but Hali has still been available, the Chiefs defense hasn't missed a beat.

[BlackOp]

Pass rushers are always more important than safeties in any scheme.

But we should see how Sutton utilizes Berry's versatility with the adjustments he made from last year before we decide to just move on from him.

Berry, used properly, is a dynamic play maker that we don't have anywhere else on this defense.

He was dynamic his rookie season...since then, has been over-hyped. He's a good player...but has never taken over a game or sealed a victory. When Houston went out ..KC tanked..when Berry was out..the defense got better.

[BlackOp]

When Hali was injured last season the Chiefs defense struggled (with a healthy Berry in the line-up).

When Berry has been out this season, but Hali has still be available, the Chiefs defense hasn't missed a beat.

I just said the same thing...you're a smart man. :)

[Shaid]

Hali is more important but how many more years does he give us? They might both be gone. I don't think we should pay Berry(trade if possible) and we should try to restructure Hali.

[milkman]

He was dynamic his rookie season...since then, has been over-hyped. He's a good player...but has never taken over a game or sealed a victory. When Houston went out out..KC tanked..when Berry was out..the defense got better.

There's a reason I said "when used properly".

He hasn't been.

I'd like to see if Sutton has figured that out.

[ILChief]

This defense is playing better because Bob Sutton understands the strengths and weaknesses of the players better than last season, and is putting them in better positions to succeed.

That, and Kendrick Lewis is gone

[O.city]

We led the league in terms of defending the tight end last year.

Berry needs to be a chief for a while.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Berry's injury could give Dorsey some leverage to renegotiate a new contract. We don't need to lose Berry or hali as they are both above average players but to answer the question at hand , Hali is more important than Berry in any defense.

[Eleazar]

Hali is more valuable, especially when you consider Berry has trouble staying out of the tub

[BlackOp]

Berry's injury could give Dorsey some leverage to renegotiate a new contract. We don't need to lose Berry or hali as they are both above average players but to answer the question at hand , Hali is more important than Berry in any defense.

Dorsey needs to weigh Berry's on field contributions against how those millions could be reallocated. I think another talented 6-2 CB would have more impact for the money. They still have Commings too..

[O.city]

Berry tore an ace and has a high ankle sprain. I don't think you can say he's a broke dick yet

[milkman]

Dorsey needs to weigh Berry's on field contributions against how those millions could be reallocated. I think another talented 6-2 CB would have more impact for the money. They still have Commings too..

Commings.

LMAO

[O.city]

Commings will never play a meaningful down for the chiefs.

[MTG#10]

Right now? Hali. Overall, Berry because Hali is about done.

[BlackOp]

Commings.

LMAO

Commings and Berry are of equal value when injured...just sayin. Commings might never play..hard to know if he's glass or had bad luck.

[BlackOp]

Right now? Hali. Overall, Berry because Hali is about done.

Hali doesn't look done to me...

[chiefzilla1501]

We led the league in terms of defending the tight end last year.

Berry needs to be a chief for a while.

I really wonder if Berry isn't the cerebral safety we think he should be. Just because he works hard doesn't mean he has great football IQ. While there's a lot of reasons the defense has improved, including Sutton, I can't help but wonder if we're overrating DJ and Berry in terms of their on-field adjustments.

He is every bit as athletic as Ed Reed. I just don't see him anticipating plays the way Reed used to. Or blowing up plays as quickly as Polamalu used to.

If that's the case, then I'd rather Berry at Free Safety where he can rely more on his elite athleticism.

[chiefzilla1501]

Hali doesn't look done to me...

I agree. But if we're talking contracts, this team has a terrible habit of paying players past their prime. Somebody is going to pay Hali a ridiculous contract in his twilight years and I hope it's not the Chiefs.

[MTG#10]

Hali doesn't look done to me...

His level of play has already started its natural age-related decline. He's still a beast, but for how much longer after this season?

[O.city]

I really wonder if Berry isn't the cerebral safety we think he should be. Just because he works hard doesn't mean he has great football IQ. While there's a lot of reasons the defense has improved, including Sutton, I can't help but wonder if we're overrating DJ and Berry in terms of their on-field adjustments.

He is every bit as athletic as Ed Reed. I just don't see him anticipating plays the way Reed used to. Or blowing up plays as quickly as Polamalu used to.

If that's the case, then I'd rather Berry at Free Safety where he can rely more on his elite athleticism.

I don't really think FS vs Ss has much difference in this defense. I also agree with milkman in that berry hasn't exactly been put in the most advantageous positions to utilize his talents.

I also don't think it's any coincidence that the defense is better in a system it's had time to learn vs changing every year

[Hoover]

The Chiefs really need to find a way to keep Hali. Make him a deal that is good for the team and him. We can't break the bank, but we need to keep him IMO.

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't really think FS vs Ss has much difference in this defense. I also agree with milkman in that berry hasn't exactly been put in the most advantageous positions to utilize his talents.

I also don't think it's any coincidence that the defense is better in a system it's had time to learn vs changing every year

In this defense, Berry spends a lot of time playing more of a LB type position and as a blitzer. He's excellent at both those things. He can basically do all the things a strong safety does exceptionally well.

I think you might question the timing of when he does each of those things. Given that Berry has autonomy on the field to decide what he wants to do, the question is if Berry is used improperly because of Sutton or because of Berry's on-field adjustment. That's one really major distinction between the two positions. The Ryan defense gives Strong Safeties a lot more ability to play defensive QB -- one of the reasons they line up so close to the line.

[milkman]

I really wonder if Berry isn't the cerebral safety we think he should be. Just because he works hard doesn't mean he has great football IQ. While there's a lot of reasons the defense has improved, including Sutton, I can't help but wonder if we're overrating DJ and Berry in terms of their on-field adjustments.

He is every bit as athletic as Ed Reed. I just don't see him anticipating plays the way Reed used to. Or blowing up plays as quickly as Polamalu used to.

If that's the case, then I'd rather Berry at Free Safety where he can rely more on his elite athleticism.

Neither Reed nor Polamalu were/are lining up in the box 60-70% of the snaps.

By lining him up in the box, the Chiefs have gotten the outstanding run support he provides, but they've removed him from position to allow his natural playmaking ability to shine.

[Halfcan]

Berry? Never heard of him-does he play for the Chiefs?

[Rasputin]

I think the best years are behind Tamba Hali but Eric Berry still has a lot more years to tone his craft.


I love them both & would love both of them to retire as Chiefs I just know that's not going happen.

[chiefzilla1501]

Neither Reed nor Polamalu were/are lining up in the box 60-70% of the snaps.

By lining him up in the box, the Chiefs have gotten the outstanding run support he provides, but they've removed him from position to allow his natural playmaking ability to shine.

I don't think lining him up in the box is the problem. Reed started his career playing strong safety in a Ryan scheme. Berry has the flexibility to move himself around, which includes ability to move himself into more coverage responsibilities. So I think the question is if Berry is doing this to himself or if he's following Sutton's play design. I agree with you that he should be playing back more but I also think that's possible at strong safety too if either he or Sutton would make that a bigger part of his role. When you're spending 1/3 of his snaps blitzing, then obviously he's not going to be in coverage. When you spend another third in the box, same.

[Red Dawg]

I think all of you under value Berry. He is a run stuffer, physical player, leader and a large part of the heart and soul of our defense. Last season he handled alot of TE coverage and he was brilliant. Witten, Gates, Cameron, Fleener, Thomas did nothing against him. I hope we find a way to keep both.

[ThaVirus]

He was dynamic his rookie season...since then, has been over-hyped. He's a good player...but has never taken over a game or sealed a victory. When Houston went out ..KC tanked..when Berry was out..the defense got better.


He had his best year as a pro last season.

Try again.

[milkman]

I don't think lining him up in the box is the problem. Reed started his career playing strong safety in a Ryan scheme. Berry has the flexibility to move himself around, which includes ability to move himself into more coverage responsibilities. So I think the question is if Berry is doing this to himself or if he's following Sutton's play design. I agree with you that he should be playing back more but I also think that's possible at strong safety too if either he or Sutton would make that a bigger part of his role. When you're spending 1/3 of his snaps blitzing, then obviously he's not going to be in coverage. When you spend another third in the box, same.

I think you are overstating Berry's flexibility in this scheme.

Reed never lined up in the box nearly as often as Berry has in this defense, and adjusting out of that requires more moving parts than just Berry moving.

[Chiefshrink]

Used properly or not Berry is a potato chip. Too injury prone for me. Nothing against him and think he is a very good player BUT.....

[Chiefshrink]

Berry? Never heard of him-does he play for the Chiefs?

Regrettably I must admit.

[TribalElder]

Urc Burry

Mike mayock would have drafted earl Thomas

[Zebedee DuBois]

You put those two names together in the title, and my mind starts wandering to this:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkkOp4cTuXmtnDw6qJMDC1_uFoJx43zKDljhyy5uZr3w7Q4rI2OA

[Direckshun]

I, too appreciate Hali and think he's been a terrific and relentless player for us. But...

Is he a 'leader'? Not bashing him in any way, but my read on Tamba is that he's more of a self motivated player who is somewhat introverted. Admittedly you don't need to be a rah-rah, boisterous, vocal dude to be a leader- Example is a language everyone speaks.

But I don't see him directing team mates on the field or grabbing guys on the sidelines to collaborate. Who is our leader on Defense?

This is absolute garbage.

Hali makes EVERYTHING ELSE on defense tick. His energy pushes everybody on the field. There is very little question.

[Direckshun]

We led the league in terms of defending the tight end last year.

Berry needs to be a chief for a while.

This. Berry's coverage on tight ends was nails last year except against Peyton Manning.

[Direckshun]

Right now? Hali. Overall, Berry because Hali is about done.

Hali has only been creating pressure against every LT he's faced this year.

But yeah, "about done."

[Direckshun]

Hali doesn't look done to me...

No shit he's not done. He's only just crossed over 30, and is still beating every LT he faces.

[Direckshun]

You put those two names together in the title, and my mind starts wandering to this:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkkOp4cTuXmtnDw6qJMDC1_uFoJx43zKDljhyy5uZr3w7Q4rI2OA

LMAO

[Rausch]

Berry.

Hali is a top 10 pass rusher but he's near the end.

Berry could play SS for another 5 years at a high level...

[B_Ambuehl]

Neither Reed nor Polamalu were/are lining up in the box 60-70% of the snaps.

By lining him up in the box, the Chiefs have gotten the outstanding run support he provides, but they've removed him from position to allow his natural playmaking ability to shine.

What natural playmaking ability? He's been given plenty of opportunities and proven he's no open field or deep threat. His strength is going downhill and making tackles around the line of scrimmage. He's basically Adam Archuleta.

[Rausch]

He's basically Adam Archuleta.

You're fucking felching crack...

[ThaVirus]

You put those two names together in the title, and my mind starts wandering to this:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkkOp4cTuXmtnDw6qJMDC1_uFoJx43zKDljhyy5uZr3w7Q4rI2OA


I love her.

[TambaBerry]

These threads always crack me up please don't stop. Ya, fuck Berry he's just an over priced shitty all pro safety. Let's trade his broke dick ass.

[Iconic]

Extend Houston and then we'll talk about these two...

Or are we just going to tag him?

[Hootie]

for this year?

Hali.

for the future?

clearly Berry

[Direckshun]

Extend Houston and then we'll talk about these two...

Or are we just going to tag him?

We're almost certainly going to tag Houston. He's asking for the universe.

[milkman]

What natural playmaking ability? He's been given plenty of opportunities and proven he's no open field or deep threat. His strength is going downhill and making tackles around the line of scrimmage. He's basically Adam Archuleta.

Plenty of opportunities?

He spends 90% of his time in the boor on man on the TE.
He has created, what?, 1 fewer turnover a year on average than Earl Thomas?

Seems like he has far fewer oppotunitie, yet make the most of those that he gets.

[Hydrae]

We're almost certainly going to tag Houston. He's asking for the universe.

I wouldn't give him any more than the Solar System.

[Rausch]

I wouldn't give him any more than the Solar System.

I'd give him your mother in a burlap sack if he asked for it...

[FloridaMan88]

Berry.

Hali is a top 10 pass rusher but he's near the end.

Berry could play SS for another 5 years at a high level...

The age factor would certainly give Berry the value advantage over Hali, although the injuries on Berry's legs (knee and now ankle/lower leg) seem to be adding up.

[O.city]

With Tamba playing like he is, it sure makes the Dee Ford pick look pretty terrible up to this point. They've gotta get that guy on the field other wise that was a huge waste

[Simply Red]

Used properly or not Berry is a potato chip. Too injury prone for me. Nothing against him and think he is a very good player BUT.....

he's nice too.

[Simply Red]

BTW how old is Hali?

[milkman]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

[Hammock Parties]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

I've been saying this since Romeo decided he should be playing LB on practically half his snaps.

He should never have been forced into that role.

[Dunerdr]

Commings will never play a meaningful down for the chiefs.

The same was said about kelce.

[Direckshun]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

Very good point.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think you are overstating Berry's flexibility in this scheme.

Reed never lined up in the box nearly as often as Berry has in this defense, and adjusting out of that requires more moving parts than just Berry moving.
Berry blitzed more than any saf3ty in the league by a mile. Let's start there. If he blitzes less, he's in coverage more. I don't see Abdullah playing the box in nearly the same way berry did and definitely not blitzing as much. Berry in an Abdullah role may play better. Which again begs the question, is it Sutton or berry that forced berry into the box or as a Blitzer? In either event, I'm leaning to berry to move to free safety but not because it's a better use of his skill set. Because I question if he has the football iq we think he has.

[BossChief]

If we are gonna make any run at a title in the next 3 years, we are gonna NEED Berry AND Hali to be in that picture...with Berry being utilized to take advantage of his open field speed, tackling ability and overall ability he has shown in the past to be an elite playmaker. We NEED the current Tamba Hali matched with the Eric Berry from his freshman and sophomore years at Tennessee before Monte Kiffen got there and neutered him into the box guy he has been ever since.

If we can get those things going, this defense WILL BE top 5 and we will be thought of as a contender because we have an offense that can put up enough points to win big games if paired with a top level defense.

If they don't think Berry can be a top level playmaking safety going forward, then they should trade him and try to bolster another position with the pick because he's NOT worth 10/yr unless he is a game changing player.

[BossChief]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

And that's exactly what my concern was (both before and after drafting him)in utilizing him the way he has been.

Kiffen
Crennel
Sutton

All ancient coaches that still think you win by shutting down the run FIRST even after the changes to how the game is played the last 10 years.

[Rasputin]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.



Pffft would help also if some asshole WR from the Buffalo Bills wouldn't have taken out his knee/with a cheap shot.

[Chiefshrink]

Pffft would help also if some asshole WR from the Buffalo Bills wouldn't have taken out his knee/with a cheap shot.

Apart from that.

[BlackOp]

This thread wasn't about if Berry is a good football player...it's more about his value to the team. In a perfect world, they could afford both..KC is going to be pressed on cap space next year. The Chiefs could get something for Berry in compensation..it's about if he is a luxury at this point. Poe is going to be expensive too..

What would Berry be worth in draft picks?

[milkman]

And that's exactly what my concern was (both before and after drafting him)in utilizing him the way he has been.

Kiffen
Crennel
Sutton

All ancient coaches that still think you win by shutting down the run FIRST even after the changes to how the game is played the last 10 years.

I don't entirely disagree with "ancient coaches".

With the exception of the Pack, the teams that are winning SBs are teams that still value the running game, and do so effectively.

I don't agree that putting Berry in the box, however, is the smartest or best way to accomplish the task of stopping the run.

[J Diddy]

The Chiefs should trade Berry and let Hali go (his best years are behind us).

[Chiefshrink]

The Chiefs should trade Berry and let Hali go (his best years are behind us).

I agree. Big $$ and age don't coincide in the NFL.

[RunKC]

Here's what you need to ask yourself. Is Berry worth it? Look at the job Ron Parker has done covering the field. He's been above average and we haven't had to worry. Abdullah has been fantastic back there as well. These two have been so good that we don't miss Berry in the slightest.
Look at what we've done against the competition we've faced? It speaks volumes that this team has not missed Eric Berry in the slightest this year.

If some slapdick GM is willing to give us a 1st rd pick, or even a 2nd plus a good player (WR) I take it.

And for the pro Hudson/Bailey/Hali club, it would not surprise me if Dorsey let's 2 of these guys, or all, leave this offseason.
People bitched about that last summer and literally NONE of those guys are missed.

We technically have capable replacements ready for most of these guys. Don't be surprised if Dorsey rolls with Abdullah, Kush, Cat, Ford and Parker next year over all these guys.

[mikey23545]

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

Right now he has a sprained ankle which has kept him in the hot tub for half a season - that has nothing to do with playing "linebacker".

Another major injury - a snapped ACL from getting hit downfield by Stevie Johnson - again, nothing to do with playing "linebacker".

Heel tendonitis? - nope, no "linebacker" problem there.

[Iconic]

I know it's irrational but I just can't see us letting Hali go. He's such a nice guy, so productive, and the leadership he brings to this team is invaluable.

Can you imagine how awkward a conversation about cutting Hali would be for Dorsey?

[O.city]

All Ron parker has done is play Kendrick Lewis role and improved it by not getting beat deeo. He rarely forces turnovers doing that, but he keeps big plays from happening.

People scream that we don't miss berry, yet look at the turnovers we forced last year vs this year. Abdullah has done a great job playing the role he has, but he's not berry. So to say we don't miss berry in the slightest is basically, bullshit.

They're not letting guys that are producing at a high level walk. They didn't do that last year, the guys they let walk were solid but unspectacular players.

[Red Dawg]

With Tamba playing like he is, it sure makes the Dee Ford pick look pretty terrible up to this point. They've gotta get that guy on the field other wise that was a huge waste

First year who cares. Next year he will start.

[mcaj22]

All Ron parker has done is play Kendrick Lewis role and improved it by not getting beat deeo. He rarely forces turnovers doing that, but he keeps big plays from happening.

People scream that we don't miss berry, yet look at the turnovers we forced last year vs this year. Abdullah has done a great job playing the role he has, but he's not berry. So to say we don't miss berry in the slightest is basically, bullshit.

They're not letting guys that are producing at a high level walk. They didn't do that last year, the guys they let walk were solid but unspectacular players.

they also havent faced that scenario yet of signing a good productive home grown talent on their second contract. Dorsey has yet to give one besides that Bowe bullshit.

[O.city]

Kush, catapano, and ford are capable? Of what?

Hudson has been our best offensive line man by a long shot, Hali has played like an all pro, and Berry had a all pro year last year, playing a level ever so slightly below the best free safety in the game, in year 1 of a new system. This would be his second year in the same system, and based on all we've heard from the coaching staff, Eric Berry was a big part of their plans on defense.

[RunKC]

All Ron parker has done is play Kendrick Lewis role and improved it by not getting beat deeo. He rarely forces turnovers doing that, but he keeps big plays from happening.

People scream that we don't miss berry, yet look at the turnovers we forced last year vs this year. Abdullah has done a great job playing the role he has, but he's not berry. So to say we don't miss berry in the slightest is basically, bullshit.

They're not letting guys that are producing at a high level walk. They didn't do that last year, the guys they let walk were solid but unspectacular players.

Top 5 in pass D. Allowed fewest pass plays of 20+ yards. We miss his run stuffing ability at the line.

Not paying a run stuffing safety that money. Get him in the back and use him to cover or trade him.

[O.city]

We aren't forcing turnovers with him out

[thabear04]

Hali is more important but how many more years does he give us? They might both be gone. I don't think we should pay Berry(trade if possible) and we should try to restructure Hali.

If we can restructure Hali contact i would love him to stay here.

[Direckshun]

We aren't forcing turnovers with him out

VERY true.

[thabear04]

Top 5 in pass D. Allowed fewest pass plays of 20+ yards. We miss his run stuffing ability at the line.

Not paying a run stuffing safety that money. Get him in the back and use him to cover or trade him.

I think we miss more of DJ stuff at the line then berry. Because DJ would be in that backfield when the ball snap.

[Direckshun]

I really love Eric Berry. There is nothing on the field he can't do, outside of lockdown coverage on elite WRs. You could probably start him at CB and be mostly okay.

Berry is a force at the line of scrimmage, unlike Reed was. And he is strong in coverage, unlike Polamalu.

He literally has the upside to be the best safety of his generation, and he needs to stay a Chief. We can probably keep him for $8m/year.

Hali needs to be extended. People calling for him to be cut don't remember how agonizing it's been under Vermeil/Herm/Haley when QBs had all day to wait.

Now we have the perfect passrush. Two forces off the edge, one really good up-and-comer as depth, tons of power up the middle (Poe and Bailey) with a tertiary threat from Bailey.

I've argued that Bailey needs to be retained, too.

[RunKC]

We aren't forcing turnovers with him out

What would you rather have? Turnovers and getting beat deep or no big plays given up, forcing punts and no turnovers?

[RunKC]

Cooper not forcing turnovers this year hurts us. He was solid at it last year.

We are also forcing several punts, so we are getting the ball back.

[chiefzilla1501]

All Ron parker has done is play Kendrick Lewis role and improved it by not getting beat deeo. He rarely forces turnovers doing that, but he keeps big plays from happening.

People scream that we don't miss berry, yet look at the turnovers we forced last year vs this year. Abdullah has done a great job playing the role he has, but he's not berry. So to say we don't miss berry in the slightest is basically, bullshit.

They're not letting guys that are producing at a high level walk. They didn't do that last year, the guys they let walk were solid but unspectacular players.

I think most people would agree that our turnover rate last year was a fluke created through the first 9 games of the season. It also doesn't help that this season, we have faced some really outstanding QBs.

Of course we would miss Berry. But we're talking about a guy who could get paid $10M+. Worst case scenario, you lose Berry and gain back DJ and Mays. Then we're in the same exact place we are now but with a stud LB and with $10M to spend on another safety or corner. That's the part I'm wrestling with. Of course he'd be missed, but $10M+ missed?

[Easy 6]

Your word for the day is "Tertiary".

[Direckshun]

I think we miss more of DJ stuff at the line then berry. Because DJ would be in that backfield when the ball snap.

DJ's been the worst loss this season, no question.

Berry's been a big loss, but we have an adequate replacement.
Mays has been adequately replaced by Mauga.
DeVito's has been adequately replaced by Vickerson/Howard.
Owens has been adequately replaced by Gaines.
Allen's been adequately replaced by McGlynn.
Stephenson's been adequately replaced by Harris.

You could make an argument that losing Avery is almost as bad as DJ, oddly enough...

[chiefzilla1501]

I think you are overstating Berry's flexibility in this scheme.

Reed never lined up in the box nearly as often as Berry has in this defense, and adjusting out of that requires more moving parts than just Berry moving.

Well, Berry is blitzing and playing in the box a lot. A lot more than Reed did when Reed played strong safety early in his career. A lot more than most strong safeties who play in a Ryan defense. So I think it's more than an interesting question to ask if that's Rex Ryan, or if Berry is making on-field adjustments.

A signature of Ryan's defense is lining the strong safety with the linebackers so that they can make adjustments safeties in most other defenses cannot or do not. Which is why I bring it up. I don't know the answer. But just in general, I just don't see Berry making the same kind of instinctive reads that I see Polamalu and Reed making. I can't help but wonder if Berry is an athletically gifted player whose place is in a scheme where he's told exactly what to do. Or... perhaps if you line him up in a defense with Parker and Bailey, that's a big enough upgrade that Berry becomes a totally different player.

[Direckshun]

Your word for the day is "Tertiary".

LMAO

Hey, YOU said in the AustinChief thread that CP taught you new words.

[O.city]

Why do we assume he's getting 10 plus million per year? I don't remember off the top of my head, but I don't think even earl Thomas got that

[O.city]

What would you rather have? Turnovers and getting beat deep or no big plays given up, forcing punts and no turnovers?

If Berry were the reason we were getting best deep as much, you'd have a point.

Replacing Lewis and demps did that trick.

We haven't yet gotten to see what Berry can be added to the current group of safetied

[BlackOp]

I'm not sure the turnover argument is because of Berry. I think Sutton realized his aggressive play calling doesn't work well against Manning, Rivers and Brady. It does work against back-ups who hold the ball too long. KC has been blitzing a lot less...maybe because Berry/DJ arent in there..but its actually working out for the better.

Hali has 5 FF last season..Berry 2.

If KC can beat Rivers and Brady without Berry....is his salary justified? Safety is just about the least important position on defense....you dont need the best...just cant have suck...*cough Lewis cough*

[O.city]

DJ's been the worst loss this season, no question.

Berry's been a big loss, but we have an adequate replacement.
Mays has been adequately replaced by Mauga.
DeVito's has been adequately replaced by Vickerson/Howard.
Owens has been adequately replaced by Gaines.
Allen's been adequately replaced by McGlynn.
Stephenson's been adequately replaced by Harris.

You could make an argument that losing Avery is almost as bad as DJ, oddly enough...

While DJ did make the big play, I have my doubts about how great his gap integrity really was.

[O.city]

It's also a pretty big indicator that, yes, when Houston and Tamba went down last year, the defense was markedly different.

[RunKC]

It would be really interesting to see a case study through 6 games last yr vs this year on turnovers and punts.

Last years team had more turnovers, but this years team has forced more punts. All things considered, forcing punts means the D is giving the ball back to the offense.

[O.city]

Thru 6 games last year, the dense was on a historic pace in terms of turnovers and points scored.

[O.city]

I think the pass rush is just that important. Look at Seattle last year to this year.

This tear, their pass defense is way down compared to last year and is actually ranked dead last in generating pressure.

[ThaVirus]

We've really got to stop hyping up our pass defense. Rivers, Manning and Locker had their way with us while Kaep did pretty well. We've only truly looked good against the pass in 2/6 games this season.

We are good at generating pressure and getting off the field on 3rd downs but that's about it.

[O.city]

By some of the logic in this thread, we almost beat rivers without half our team last year, should cut.

[Direckshun]

While DJ did make the big play, I have my doubts about how great his gap integrity really was.

He didn't disappear against blockers like JMJ consistently does.

JMJ had a game earlier this year with 0 tackles. That's just unheardof for his position in this defense.

[Easy 6]

LMAO

Hey, YOU said in the AustinChief thread that CP taught you new words.

I like it, not a word you hear used very often.

[Direckshun]

LMAO

One time I used "hypotenuse" in a thread and Claynus almost shit his pants.

[Easy 6]

I'm pretty proud of my vocabulary and I've NEVER heard of that one, got me there.

[Direckshun]

I'm pretty proud of my vocabulary and I've NEVER heard of that one, got me there.

You've heard of a hypotenuse.

Look up a right triangle. It's the diagonal edge of a triangle.

You learned about it in high school.

[Hydrae]

We've really got to stop hyping up our pass defense. Rivers, Manning and Locker had their way with us while Kaep did pretty well. We've only truly looked good against the pass in 2/6 games this season.

We are good at generating pressure and getting off the field on 3rd downs but that's about it.

Just addressing Rivers. You know, the guy who people were starting to talk about as having reached a new level and maybe even an outside shot at MVP. The Chiefs only shut him down and held him to his worst stats of the season.

But he had his way with us so carry on...

[ThaVirus]

Just addressing Rivers. You know, the guy who people were starting to talk about as having reached a new level and maybe even an outside shot at MVP. The Chiefs only shut him down and held him to his worst stats of the season.



But he had his way with us so carry on...


They scored 20 points in 20 minutes. He had his way with us.

[Dave Lane]

Berry blitzed more than any saf3ty in the league by a mile. Let's start there. If he blitzes less, he's in coverage more. I don't see Abdullah playing the box in nearly the same way berry did and definitely not blitzing as much. Berry in an Abdullah role may play better. Which again begs the question, is it Sutton or berry that forced berry into the box or as a Blitzer? In either event, I'm leaning to berry to move to free safety but not because it's a better use of his skill set. Because I question if he has the football iq we think he has.

Exactly how much Football IQ do you think a safety needs? Like Peyton Manning IQ or???

[Dave Lane]

You've heard of a hypotenuse.

Look up a right triangle. It's the diagonal edge of a triangle.

You learned about it in high school.

Hell watch the Wizard of Oz.

[Rausch]

It's also a pretty big indicator that, yes, when Houston and Tamba went down last year, the defense was markedly different.

It was dog$#it...

[chiefzilla1501]

Exactly how much Football IQ do you think a safety needs? Like Peyton Manning IQ or???

If you've watched Ed Reed and Polamalu, you'd know what a difference football IQ makes. Those guys are elite so that's not a huge deal if Berry doesn't have that level of IQ. But we are talking about a guy who could become an extremely highly paid safety.

[milkman]

If you've watched Ed Reed and Polamalu, you'd know what a difference football IQ makes. Those guys are elite so that's not a huge deal if Berry doesn't have that level of IQ. But we are talking about a guy who could become an extremely highly paid safety.

You're overplaying this whole football IQ, freedom to make adjustments bullshit agument,

I'd bet you that if you were to go back and watch every game that Polamulu and Reed played and compare them to games that Berry has played, you'd find that neither of them lined up in the box in 4 gamen stretches as often as Berry has in a single game.

That imits his adjustments far more than Reed and Polamulu.

[J Diddy]

It was dog$#it...

dog, dollar, pound it?

what dat

[chiefzilla1501]

You're overplaying this whole football IQ, freedom to make adjustments bullshit agument,

I'd bet you that if you were to go back and watch every game that Polamulu and Reed played and compare them to games that Berry has played, you'd find that neither of them lined up in the box in 4 gamen stretches as often as Berry has in a single game.

That imits his adjustments far more than Reed and Polamulu.

Playing in the box actually gives Berry more ability to make adjustments because he can communicate directly with his linebackers. One of the main reasons Buddy Ryan started to line his safeties at that level. Most notably, a signature of Ryan's 46 defense was using the safety in a jayhawk adjustment. In a Ryan defense, the strong safety should have flexibility to read the defense, make a pre-snap adjustment, and have the linebackers adjust to what he's doing. That's how Landry has been used with the Jets. See below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/mehta-dawan-landry-rex-ryan-safety-net-article-1.1946766
"Ryan, who coached Landry for three seasons in Baltimore before bringing him back last year, trusts the veteran to absorb pre-snap offensive looks, make the proper adjustments and convey the changes to teammates. He is Ryan’s Chief Communicator in the secondary with thankless responsibilities that will never make SportsCenter."

So again, if in a Ryan defense, the strong safety is given lots of pre-snap responsibility... you and I both agree that Berry is playing WAY too many snaps as a linebacker and a blitzer. I really wonder if that's because of Sutton's playcall or Berry's pre-snap adjustment. I get that you think he should play single high -- I think he'd excel in that role too. But there's no doubt Berry has the physical ability to play SS. So it's more than fair to ask if he's handling the job mentally as well as we think he is. If he isn't, that's just another reason to consider him for free safety.

[mcaj22]

If you've watched Ed Reed and Polamalu, you'd know what a difference football IQ makes. Those guys are elite so that's not a huge deal if Berry doesn't have that level of IQ. But we are talking about a guy who could become an extremely highly paid safety.

Become? The dude is making 20 million in two years here. He already is.

[chiefzilla1501]

If Berry were the reason we were getting best deep as much, you'd have a point.

Replacing Lewis and demps did that trick.

We haven't yet gotten to see what Berry can be added to the current group of safetied

Fair to ask. Maybe he plays less LB if the ILBs are more consistently fulfilling their gap responsibilities. Maybe he blitzes less now that we're getting better pressure from our D-line. Maybe he has less of a need to cover Kendrick Lewis' field.

Or maybe Berry doesn't read offenses as much as we give him credit for. Certainly an interesting question we'll have a better sense for when he comes back.

[milkman]

Playing in the box actually gives Berry more ability to make adjustments because he can communicate directly with his linebackers. One of the main reasons Buddy Ryan started to line his safeties at that level. Most notably, a signature of Ryan's 46 defense was using the safety in a jayhawk adjustment. In a Ryan defense, the strong safety should have flexibility to read the defense, make a pre-snap adjustment, and have the linebackers adjust to what he's doing. That's how Landry has been used with the Jets. See below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/mehta-dawan-landry-rex-ryan-safety-net-article-1.1946766
"Ryan, who coached Landry for three seasons in Baltimore before bringing him back last year, trusts the veteran to absorb pre-snap offensive looks, make the proper adjustments and convey the changes to teammates. He is Ryan’s Chief Communicator in the secondary with thankless responsibilities that will never make SportsCenter."

So again, if in a Ryan defense, the strong safety is given lots of pre-snap responsibility... you and I both agree that Berry is playing WAY too many snaps as a linebacker and a blitzer. I really wonder if that's because of Sutton's playcall or Berry's pre-snap adjustment. I get that you think he should play single high -- I think he'd excel in that role too. But there's no doubt Berry has the physical ability to play SS. So it's more than fair to ask if he's handling the job mentally as well as we think he is. If he isn't, that's just another reason to consider him for free safety.

Ed Reed and Troy Polamulu are/were making individual adjustments, that they can make within a couple of seconds of the snap, which allows them the ability to make plays on the ball in coverage.

The adjustments that you are talking about here are ones that must be communicated to the others involved, so they need more time to make them, which allows the smart QB to an opportunity to read and react and adjust himself.

We are talking about entirely situations.

This is why you are making too much of this.

[chiefzilla1501]

Ed Reed and Troy Polamulu are/were making individual adjustments, that they can make within a couple of seconds of the snap, which allows them the ability to make plays on the ball in coverage.

The adjustments that you are talking about here are ones that must be communicated to the others involved, so they need more time to make them, which allows the smart QB to an opportunity to read and react and adjust himself.

We are talking about entirely situations.

This is why you are making too much of this.

Then the Reed and Polamalu examples maybe aren't the best ones. I agree.

But if in the Ryan defense, the Strong Safety has ability to make pre-snap adjustments, then it's Berry's fault if he's blitzing too much or playing too many snaps as a gap filler. I agree he has less flexibility to adjust out of the box, but he does have ability to adjust into more coverage-related responsibilities. It sure feels like Abdullah plays a lot more coverage than Berry does, doesn't it? Blitzes less? Plays less of a gap fill role?

Now, maybe he's doing that because our linebackers and pass rush last year were complete dogshit. Or maybe Berry isn't making nearly the kind of pre-snap adjustments we'd want him to.

We both agree that Berry needs to play gap fill less and blitz less, and cover more. I also agree with you that a move to free safety could save his body. Where I disagree is I know Berry has the elite physical skill set to be an exceptional strong safety and that he could be a difference maker if used properly. He doesn't seem to be being used properly within a strong safety role which again points back to the question... is that Sutton or is that Berry? Does that change now that we have better talent around him?

[milkman]

Then the Reed and Polamalu examples maybe aren't the best ones. I agree.

But if in the Ryan defense, the Strong Safety has ability to make pre-snap adjustments, then it's Berry's fault if he's blitzing too much or playing too many snaps as a gap filler. I agree he has less flexibility to adjust out of the box, but he does have ability to adjust into more coverage-related responsibilities. It sure feels like Abdullah plays a lot more coverage than Berry does, doesn't it? Blitzes less? Plays less of a gap fill role?

Now, maybe he's doing that because our linebackers and pass rush last year were complete dogshit. Or maybe Berry isn't making nearly the kind of pre-snap adjustments we'd want him to.

We both agree that Berry needs to play gap fill less and blitz less, and cover more. I also agree with you that a move to free safety could save his body. Where I disagree is I know Berry has the elite physical skill set to be an exceptional strong safety and that he could be a difference maker if used properly. He doesn't seem to be being used properly within a strong safety role which again points back to the question... is that Sutton or is that Berry? Does that change now that we have better talent around him?

Abdullah isn't coming out of the huddle and lining up in the box nearly as often as Berry was, so that should answer the question.

[chiefzilla1501]

Abdullah isn't coming out of the huddle and lining up in the box nearly as often as Berry was, so that should answer the question.

That sounds about right. It will be interesting to see what Berry does when he comes back. I would really hope that the way this defense was run while Berry was out is eye-opening for Sutton. The way Abdullah was used sure makes it seem like Berry wasn't used properly.